Transcript
Zain
0:02
This is a strategist episode 999.9999999999. My
Zain
0:08
My name is Zain Velji with me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. You could hear it. You could hear that I was second guessing the amount of nines. I have no idea if you did the right number. I
Zain
0:17
count. I don't intend to check. I've given
Carter
0:20
I'm phoning this one
Zain
0:21
one in guys. This is a task for the Patreon listeners.
Zain
0:22
Well, Carter, you've been phoning in for a while. We know that. How are you doing? And where are are you why are we having the uh
Zain
0:29
uh you know i know this is an audio medium core you're going to remind us but carter you look like a grandfather on zoom what's going on here what
Zain
0:37
what is this look why are we seeing 80 of you as chin we're
Corey
0:41
just going okay jesus fucking christ this is all going very poorly hey this
Corey
0:45
this is the last of our summer schedule and uh then we're back to sundays and thursdays again starting i think
Zain
0:52
think he's trying to tell us that more than anything i don't think that's for the listers as much as this is an accountability mechanism it's
Carter
0:58
it's mostly for you i knew this i was already in why
Carter
1:02
why does it bother you so much that
Zain
1:04
that i have that i have other things going on carter that i may have other things going on on a sunday oh i don't
Carter
1:09
don't believe that i
Carter
1:10
don't believe you got anything else going on succession
Zain
1:13
reruns instead of recording this podcast no
Carter
1:15
no this is exactly it you don't give a fuck about us um you're
Carter
1:19
you're only here for the fans you don't have as many as cory and i so that's what pissed you off okay
Carter
1:27
this is better by the way did i set up my video it is better thank
Zain
1:29
thank you carter thank you i mean the insights won't be better but this does look better uh carter cory is right this is the last of our summer schedule of course um we've been uh covering many topics on the summer schedule um none of which include our favorite fast food joints so carter i do want to take a moment uh any news on a dairy very Queens of the world. I know we've had some Wendy's talk here. We've had some occasional Taco Bell. Uh, we've had some summertime hotdog talk. Any, any of those items you want to get out of your system before we move on to the actual meat and potatoes of the show. And also you can talk about meat and potatoes. I will allow that. Heather
Carter
2:06
Heather and I were in, uh, Vernon the other day and we, we went for a long bike ride cause we're outdoor people, as you know. Uh, and afterwards we thought to ourselves, you know what we really need? We need an orange Orange Julius. And when I say we, I mean her. She says, I need an Orange Julius right now. Those
Carter
2:21
Those words have never
Zain
2:21
never been uttered. That's the first time, but go ahead.
Carter
2:23
ahead. Where do we go to find an Orange Julius, you might be asking yourself? DQ.
Carter
2:27
Dairy Queen has the Orange Julius. So we went to Orange Julius, or went to Dairy Queen, got an Orange Julius. It was the happiest moment, I think, of Heather's life.
Carter
2:37
You know, Corey, Carter, it wasn't as good
Zain
2:39
good as it used to be. I'm going to cut you off there, Carter. Thank you. Yeah, it
Zain
2:41
wasn't as good as it uh
Zain
2:42
uh cory now we've got a real question on the table because is the orange julius dq pairing the weakest of the lot let me give you the others that i know about okay you got kfc taco bell okay that's i think it's a solid that's solid that is wendy's tim hortons what else are we missing we got walmart mcdonald's okay i mean these are the classic pairings that we have but i think orange julius and dq who's lifting who in that situation
Corey
3:11
Yeah. The other one you're forgetting is the Harvey's Swiss Chalet. Oh, that's so good. Oh my goodness.
Zain
3:16
How do I forget? Yeah. Canadiana. Oh my goodness. That Harvey's Swiss Chalet. That same takeout counter. Yeah.
Corey
3:24
So a couple of thoughts. Yeah. Because you guys are just pinging all of the good topics right now. And I
Corey
3:29
opinions about all of them.
Corey
3:30
One, Carter, I had the first Orange Julius I've had in about 10 years the other day
Corey
3:36
too. There's something in the air. I don't know what it is. It's
Carter
3:38
It's so good. Aren't they good? not flair
Corey
3:39
flair airlines okay keep two two
Corey
3:42
two there is wendy's news today what
Corey
3:46
what was the big wendy's wendy's wendy's canada changed their logo wendy's canada changed their logo to change the hair of wendy on the logo to gray i
Corey
3:56
i was gonna i was gonna say this is lisa
Zain
3:58
laflamme do you want to talk about this right now is carter cory's right so uh if you didn't this is big news the the gray-haired wendy's mask i know wendy's always has salty twitter dove has joined in dove actually was much more uh serious in their tone um on this conversation carter corporate canada jumping on the um sub tweeting of the bell media lisa laflam uh parting of ways no firing um what do you think is this is this i was gonna ask you it as an overrated underrated but like is this a big deal
Carter
4:33
yeah. It's a huge deal. It's a huge deal. No one's going to remember it tomorrow. But for today, it's a huge deal. Listen, I make light, but I think that it was pretty bad that CTV fired Lisa Laflamme. I mean, that would be the same as like, say Peter Mansbridge was bald and went gray. I mean, he could have been fired, right? But instead, they kept him for 100 years. um they kept lloyd robertson bald and gray and uh lisa laflamme's gray hair was fantastic it was absolutely spectacular so i i i do think that you know bell media made a mistake firing lisa laflamme i'm not sure how i feel about um wendy's jumping in on it dove made total questioning dove
Carter
5:18
dove made total sense because dove has been working on this everybody's beautiful campaign for a long time. I'm not sure if I've named it appropriately, but for years, they've been talking about how everybody has a beautiful side. They've really owned the brand space. But Wendy's hasn't. Wendy's positioning, for them to jump in on this, I mean, I'm a fan of it, but I'm not sure that it really made the same brand impact as Dove did.
Zain
5:46
Corey, corporate comms guy, communications, you're bailiwick. What do you think of these these two corporate brands jumping in on this story?
Corey
5:55
I think a couple of things. I think a couple of things about them, and I think a couple of things about Bell and CTV.
Corey
6:01
When I think about the companies that are jumping in, I agree with Stephen that the Dove one makes more sense because that's much more consistent with the brand that Dove is trying to put out there. You think about Dove's advertising, real bodies, 99.99% pure, this honest forthright, we should be happy in our skin approach. approach so consistent with their messaging ladders up to the story they are telling about themselves. No brainer. And the fact that they took it serious, I think also reflects the tone of their advertising. So very much on point, it is what you look for when you build social media for corporate accounts. Not
Corey
6:37
Not just reacting to a bunch of shit that's happening out there, not just trying to go viral for the sake of, but telling your brand story through social media.
Corey
6:44
And so when I think about Wendy's, I don't give it particularly high marks. Now, Now, the Wendy's persona, as you've mentioned, is really snarky, especially the Wendy's Arch brand. This is the Canadian brand. A
Corey
6:55
couple of things that
Corey
6:57
would have killed a week ago, but it took way too long for them to get it out there if they're just trying to be a quick witted, right? Snarky, quick witted. Those things require you to be quick and they were not quick on that.
Corey
7:08
And so I don't think it reinforced those brand things. It looks more like a me too and a jumping on there. there. I also think
Corey
7:16
think that it's just not consistent with their brand. When you look at Wendy's and what they're after and who they market towards, it
Corey
7:23
it tends to be teenagers, early 20-somethings. It's the Baconator. The Baconator and now gray-haired Wendy, that's not really a brand match, which is not to say that it's not a cause worth championing, but it's probably not moving their brand forward. And there are probably ways they could have approached it that would have have um they would have been more consistent with their brand could
Zain
7:43
lose some points guys like could there be a where it's so nakedly opportunistic that it despite the fact that public sentiment is aligned to what they're saying that it could lose some points is that is that like a a cautionary tale or not so much
Corey
7:59
much yeah i mean for sure and we've seen that a lot of times when all of a sudden somebody's jumping in on juneteenth and they're saying and by the the way here's a coupon for like a funeral home or something like that right like when brands just try to shoehorn themselves into big cultural moments yeah they can really fuck up and you know the examples i'm pulling are real examples here yeah
Zain
8:19
yeah that's a real example yeah yeah so
Corey
8:20
so um i think we
Corey
8:22
we just need to be you know as brand managers mindful of those things and every brand manager has to fight the same instinct which is that you
Corey
8:32
you know you're always looking for these hooks you're always trying to get your way out there you're trying to go viral you're trying trying to latch onto the stories. That's how, that's how the social media world works. That's how you actually get the eyeballs that let you do the things you want to do, but you're not getting eyeballs for the sake of that's, that's kind of a really important point that you need to underline here.
Corey
8:50
And, and then the second thing is you've got to consider the risk benefit rewards here. And while I don't think Wendy's fell on their face and I think they got some pretty good
Corey
9:01
I'm not really sure that this was Wendy's story.
Zain
9:04
carter carter oh go ahead go ahead cory finish off your thought no
Corey
9:07
no no yeah i got thoughts about what this says about bell and ctv too though that we're still talking about this a week and a half after yeah
Zain
9:13
yeah yeah let me let me park that because i do i do want to i will bring it up back in discussion um you know carter what is this this is feeling like something this is feeling like a segment this is feeling like the strategy scale already so carter let's just jump into it But our first segment, the strategy scale, you know, Corey Hogan talked about Juneteenth. Let me let me take you through some six degrees of Kevin Bacon, Kevin Turkey Bacon, as I say, being Muslim. Oh,
Zain
9:39
of course. So, you know, that Juneteenth story is real. In fact, the comedian who really pushed that, made that a national story was comedian Roy Wood Jr. from The Daily Show, who I was in Vancouver to see. see, I saw a show of his where he's performing at the Orpheum Theatre, and sitting right in front of me, Stephen Carter, was another national news host, Ian Anamansing. So, I just want to just let you pick up those names I've dropped on the floor, just to let you know that I'm also part of the mixture of Canadian culture, that I get it, that I'm around, and that I take occasional trips to Vancouver, Carter. So, you're not the only one that can invade Surrey. this
Carter
10:19
this reminds me of the time that cory and i went to new york uh without you and uh we went to the comedy no don't
Zain
10:25
don't don't don't do it comedy
Carter
10:26
store if there's anything i
Zain
10:27
i like more than islam it's it's the comedy seller which is the true mecca yeah
Carter
10:31
yeah oh my god and and who do we see again cory do you remember it was uh fuck yourself
Carter
10:38
there damon wayans dropped in damon wayans it was john
Zain
10:41
john mulaney that you saw oh john mulaney
Zain
10:45
mulaney was there All
Carter
10:46
All three of them dropped in remember.
Zain
10:47
remember. The fact that you don't remember. It was pretty
Carter
10:49
pretty good. I'll tell you something. That John Mulaney guy was pretty good.
Zain
10:55
Fuck off. Honestly, fuck off. Hey, speaking of pretty good, Carter, is it time for us to eat crow? Because on the strategy scale, and by the way, to fill folks in, here's what we do. I asked Stephen and Corey a bunch of stories or things happening in Canadian politics right now. You guys tell me how it ranks on the strategy scale between 1 to 10. 1 is terrible strategy. strategy 10 uh means excellent out of the park home run steven carter are we gonna start eating a bit of fucking crow is it time for you and i to eat crow because pure polyev's videos
Zain
11:25
and this most recent video i don't know if you've seen it breakfast with justin i think i actually think that's its name where i don't know how to describe it it's it's a camera sitting right next to pure polyev in a in a two table diner like there's a diner people are in but he's at his table at the window there's a camera facing pierre you can see him eating his breakfast and he speaks into the camera as if the camera is justin trudeau and he and he goes on a five minute patronizing rant to the prime minister hey welcome back from costa rica justin let me tell you the price of bacon has gone up blah blah blah um carter we
Zain
11:56
we have to ask ourselves on the strategy scale what are we giving pierre pauliev's recent experimental
Zain
12:02
experimental run of videos can i call it that his recent that's
Corey
12:06
that's well put this
Corey
12:07
this is a guy i listen before he even starts this is a guy who is high on his own supply the way he's
Zain
12:16
he's doing like his i actually totally agree
Zain
12:17
agree with that yeah but
Zain
12:18
but carter i'll let you go in because you and i have said this guy's a gifted communicator we've gone as far as saying he's a master hey i'm not i'm not i'm
Zain
12:25
i'm not stepping back from that but this run of video seems really fucking weird zane
Carter
12:29
zane i'm gonna reintroduce a concept that we haven't talked about for a long time and that's the double
Zain
12:33
double it's the double down it's
Carter
12:34
it's the double down you
Carter
12:35
you and i owned a position we can't walk away from that position the i
Carter
12:40
these these videos are fucking fantastic keep in mind that not everybody has seen all the videos so these videos speak to an audience and pierre polyev has really you know sure for for those of us that are political professionals communications professionals they're pretty horrible but for the average person that's watching TikTok all day and seeing bad TikToks, they're still pretty horrible. But do they work? That's the question. And I think that they do work. And that's why Pierre Polyev is just a better communicator than Corey's ever given him credit for.
Carter
13:12
And I'll prove it to you. He's going to win the leadership.
Carter
13:19
Proof point. Double down. So what you just saw there, folks,
Zain
13:23
double down. Yeah. Carter, your blessing has been noted. The Carter bump has been noted. Corey, on the strategy scale of his recent run on videos, what are you giving it?
Corey
13:35
So the weakest pairing is not DQ and Orange Julius. It's Poliev and a small amount of success because it really has- And a lead, yeah. Yeah. It is run into this weird arthouse vibe that he's now got going on. When he was doing in the walk and talk uh about which which let's look at these lines at the passport office really well done when he talked about look at this house behind me in vancouver this is how much it costs and it's a teardown but hey listen maybe you'd build a few units that's still outrageously expensive really great really articulated that well and
Corey
14:09
and what i liked about those ones is they talked to an audience that he's going to need to be prime minister who the fuck is this for like this snark against the prime minister this talking to the camera i mean the only thing i can say uh to his credit is he did it better than clint eastwood did it talking to an empty chair but like that was an embarrassment too and in what was that 2008 yeah i
Carter
14:30
i mean that's the probably the part that's the worst is it's a recycled concept from 14 years ago really
Corey
14:37
oh like from 14 how many people have tried that talk to the camera pretend they're there that's just that's that's hack stuff um but maybe he's just getting out of his system maybe he's determined he's won he's just just working on a couple of things trying to get the base on his hands i if i try to be charitable maybe there's a method to the madness or maybe it is this is now the time to run these things and see who they resonate with and see if we can catch something i suspect this is just a situation where somebody told him he's really good at videos and now he has lost all sense of reason and instead of moderating himself and trying to do stuff i don't i don't just don't know what like us
Corey
15:12
good at podcasts you
Corey
15:14
yeah that's his intimate before you know it we're
Corey
15:16
we're charging six dollars a month or his intimate
Zain
15:18
intimate pov pornhub era um i don't know what the fuck he's trying to do james seriously that was i don't i don't that's
Carter
15:28
that's never leaving my head oh
Corey
15:35
don't let me tell you okay nobody needs that nobody Nobody needs that. Thank you.
Corey
15:39
Five minutes are worth it.
Zain
15:41
Carter, actually, Corey, I'm going to stick with you on this next one, the strategy scale. Daniel Smith is
Zain
15:48
is out defending the Alberta Sovereignty Act. She wrote a lengthy-ish op-ed in the National Post. I'm not going to try to torque this, but effectively gaslighting and saying that this is not unconstitutional. People who say it is and have heard of it don't really know what I'm talking about. It would essentially to give Alberta the same power in confederation that Quebec has. Shocking, I know. She adds a bit of snark to it.
Zain
16:13
I'm quoting a bit of what she said here. Corey, let's talk about the substance of what she's saying, but I also want to talk about the strategy of it. The fact that she's in a front runner position, writing this op-ed, creating more airtime
Zain
16:28
airtime for this issue. I want to talk about the strategy of that, but do you want to start there or do you want to start with the content of it first where
Corey
16:35
where do you want to go let's start with the content because the strategy maybe i'll just put a pin in in like a point i want to make here which is it's really interesting to me she felt the need to write the op-ed at all right and that does say you
Corey
16:46
you know there's pressure even within the conservative party on this particular matter obviously jason kenney made his comments saying that this was i can't remember his exact words but cuckoo for cocoa puffs was the basic sentiment pretty much and
Corey
16:58
and um and then i think that's bled into the public and the public has seen this as an alarming, almost separatist style act. And so she's needed to kind of seize it back. And it's not uncommon when you're trying to recapture a narrative to say, let's do an op-ed. And I'm actually not that critical of it because one of the benefits of the op-ed format is it forces you to sit down and put your thoughts out in long-ish form, but not long form. And that can then be the springboard to a lot of other communications activity. You can point to it it on social media, all of that.
Corey
17:30
I call these tentpole communications, right? That allow you to have content underneath all sorts of other communications activity that's going on.
Corey
17:38
But let's talk about the content a bit here.
Corey
17:41
It is a great reminder that the ability to name a clause or cite a paper does not a lawyer make. And it is full of kind of, even armchair constitutional scholars would have great, great problems with a number of the things that are have said there, and actual constitutional scholars, actual lawyers and political scientists who look at this are lighting their hair on fire about it. To your point about gaslighting, it does seem to be the opposite of what some of the people who have helped or crafted have said. But even if you just want to accept a universe where this is the only reality that exists, there are omissions. She talks about Rachel Notley tried social license and all she got was Bill C-69, seeming
Corey
18:21
seeming to mention not at all
Corey
18:23
Mountain. You know, the purchase of a
Corey
18:25
by the federal government. I mean, that
Carter
18:27
that seems pretty relevant to
Corey
18:30
She talks about BC receiving an exemption or, you know, she talks about BC having an exemption from the Controlled Drug and Substance Act. Fails to mention that the federal government gifted that, not that BC seized that and said, this is our authority and we can do this. You know, so just like a real, real omission there. there. And it's,
Corey
18:52
of course, continues this very willful misunderstanding in Alberta about what equalization is, where the money comes from, how that all flows. It was a combination of sort of greatest hits and dissembling and saying, well, no, but I actually meant this and that and the other thing. And frankly, none
Corey
19:08
none of us would be wiser for it. I don't know, though, that it won't serve the purpose, which is providing her stalwarts with something to point to and say, no, no, no, No, this is what we actually meant.
Corey
19:19
I will say I did learn one thing from this.
Corey
19:22
What did you learn? Maybe I should have known this already.
Corey
19:24
Saskatchewan has asserted that's a nation within a nation. Like they pulled the whole nation within a nation thing.
Corey
19:32
That's crazy. Anyways, those
Corey
19:34
those are my thoughts. I give it like a D minus on content, but D minus is enough these days a lot of the time. Look at what people
Corey
19:43
people have spun electoral
Corey
19:45
electoral victories out of far less.
Zain
19:47
Carter, I'm coming to you in a second, Corey. On content, D-minus, got to be clear, Corey, on strategy, you're not criticizing the tactic use, but to keep this story alive, to volley the Alberta Sovereignty Act going forward, tell me about that a bit more in terms of her keeping this ball still in play. What do you think? So let's
Corey
20:05
let's be clear what this is. This is a retreat that is being defined as just trying to assert something or clear the air or clarify. You
Zain
20:14
You truly think it's a retreat? Yeah,
Corey
20:15
Yeah, I mean, it's so very different from previous comments that have been made on this. And even though it still includes a lot of things that are hinting towards a deeply unconstitutional regime where the government can just pick and choose which federal laws it applies based on the federal or the provincial government's determination of whether something's constitutional. It's not the provincial government's job. That's the court's job, right? right?
Corey
20:38
She has walked away from some of the things that people have said around her and that she has even hinted at in the past about the ability to do things or other things. She's fundamentally tried to root it in a constitutional grounding. Now, that
Corey
20:53
that doesn't mean it's good policy now. I really, really need to underline this point.
Corey
20:58
If Alberta asserted itself to the absolute limits of its constitutional authority, it would be more expensive. It would isolate us from the rest of the country, it would break things.
Corey
21:09
Canada is a country that works better in practice than in theory because we collaborate, because we are a country and we work together on things like CPP, on not having a bunch of separate income tax systems, but one income tax system, on working with the federal government on immigration, on all of these things that, yes, we often see Quebec try to opt out of.
Corey
21:28
That doesn't mean Quebec's right. Just because Quebec did something does does not itself in any way, shape or form suggest that means it's the proper course of action. In fact, you
Corey
21:37
you can take two facts that were presented in her own article.
Corey
21:40
Quebec has gotten an awful lot of equalization money and Quebec has done all of these things and said, hmm,
Corey
21:45
interesting. Quebec's economy has lagged behind Alberta's pretty dramatically. I guess we should be exactly like Quebec.
Corey
21:53
There's fundamental challenges in there. But it does seem to be a bit of a walking back from the more extreme rhetoric and trying to say, no, no, no, no. I'm going to do this all rooted in the constitution.
Zain
22:04
Carter, about 15 minutes ago, Corey said something's in the air and I said, definitely isn't Flair Airlines. Do you think he should have laughed harder at that?
Carter
22:10
that? It was a very funny joke. It
Carter
22:12
was a very good joke. I laughed hysterically.
Carter
22:15
hysterically. That's what I thought.
Carter
22:17
It wasn't as funny as, what was that guy's name again that we saw at the comedy cellar, Corey?
Corey
22:22
Go fuck yourself. Carter. Damon Wayans is the one I think. Damon Wayans is the one I'm thinking
Zain
22:28
Hey, Carter, is this a retreat?
Zain
22:30
Do you think of it as this is a retreat? No, I don't.
Zain
22:33
don't. Do you think this is as a strategic volley to keep the story alive? Because it's just an extension of sucking up all the oxygen in this race on her issue. The more you're talking about my issue, the more I am ahead.
Carter
22:46
Yeah. Let's count all the leadership candidates that got an op-ed in the Globe and Mail in the last two weeks. One. Okay, good. Good good count, good count. She got what she wanted. She got attention. She got an opportunity to, I think that Corey's saying that she backed away from some of the more extreme things. I think that she just ignored some of the more extreme things that she said. She took the lowest hanging fruit that was the easiest to justify using her kind of rudimentary
Carter
23:11
rudimentary law analysis. And she did that. And I think that the other thing that we always keep forgetting about Quebec. We could very easily trade places with Quebec if we want to. Um, Corey's point about the lower income is the one that I always bring up. Why do we give so much money to Quebec? We give them so much money because they have no industry. They have no, you know, in the overall scheme of things, they, they don't have the industries. They don't have the opportunities that we have in Alberta. Why is that? Um, in
Carter
23:44
large part, because they chose to drive away huge, huge industries in the 1970s and 80s when they decided to really embrace separatism. That would happen here, especially with the decline in the oil and gas community. People would follow what was the name, Encana, to Denver, you know, in Hartford, you know,
Carter
24:07
ticks of the clock and they're out of here.
Zain
24:12
I do want to, let's talk about this Quebec analogy.
Zain
24:15
Its effectiveness, am I putting words in either of your mouths if I were to say that you guys are not fans of this, that it's easily deconstructed? Is that fair to say for both of you? Or do
Zain
24:25
merit in this Quebec comparison? Because there is something to be said that it's an easy shorthand. They're getting a lot more money than us. They do it because they assert themselves. They've got a sort of bullheaded way of doing things. Yes, I understand the points both of you have made that could perhaps disassemble that or dismantle that argument. But as a shorthand, Carter, as political messaging, do
Zain
24:49
do you see the merits or do you not see the merits? And do you see it as a good strategy by extension?
Carter
24:54
Daniel Smith is in an event with separatists tonight, along with Todd Lowen and Brian Jean. They're there saying, Daniel Smith is actually saying that she's going to give Canada one more chance.
Carter
25:07
Fuck you, Daniel. I can't believe we're giving you one more chance. This is a horrible idea. Now, oftentimes we will play with horrible groups to try and win their votes, right? I think Stephen Harper did it very well when he played with the anti-abortion groups and played to try and get their votes and then never delivered for them, right? And I would suggest to you that those groups are very, they have long memories and they remember them. This is not a group that you play with. This isn't an idea that you play with, because this is the type of idea that grows.
Carter
25:37
And as it grows, it just simply creates problems. This is a huge mistake by Danielle Smith and us putting, and us being Albertans, putting Danielle Smith back into the lead, back into the opportunity to lead our province.
Carter
25:50
This is a terrible idea. Absolutely
Zain
25:53
Okay. Hold your horses on the forum that's coming next. Corey, I want your reaction to the Quebec as a political shorthand. Talk to to me about the political strategy here. Do you see merit for her to continue using it to help describe her Alberta Sovereignty Act?
Corey
26:07
Yeah, I do. I think it's fundamentally nonsense for all of the reasons we've talked about and probably half a dozen more that we've talked about on other pods. But it's
Corey
26:17
it's going to have an audience here in Alberta. There is this idea that Quebec gets special privileges. And so why would we not want to seize those special privileges? I do think that that there's this fundamental illogic within it all, because Albertans would sort of be the first people to say Quebec's not running the province of Quebec in a particularly practical fashion. And sort of to follow down this path is wild to me. And as I like to remind people, and I've said it recently, but I'll say it again, corporate
Corey
26:47
corporate taxes were lower in Quebec than they were in Ontario when all of the banks fled to Ontario. And it's because this kind of instability and and this saber rattling, and this asserting your sovereignty, that's not very appealing to people who are looking for stable business environments.
Corey
27:04
And can you imagine, let's just use our faculties of imagination here.
Corey
27:09
Governments in Alberta for many years of different stripes have sort of had this dream of, God, it would be great if we could pull one of those big financial institutions out to Alberta, maybe
Corey
27:17
maybe one of the big five banks, maybe a big insurance company, get
Corey
27:21
get them to set up here.
Corey
27:23
can kind of dangle this low tax environment in front of them, the low cost of living. Of course, the Alberta government's got a campaign running on it.
Corey
27:30
None of it matters
Corey
27:32
matters at all. And all of it is undone if people think there's a chance that Alberta might just pick up its ball and go home. Whether out of Canada entirely or just by putting up all of these walls, making it incredibly difficult to get employees to get interested in the idea of going to Alberta. Come to Alberta. You're not in the Canada pension plan anymore. You've got this separate weird pension plan. You've got to send your kids to a school that has a very weird curriculum. All of these things that we're sort of dabbling
Corey
27:59
dabbling with in Alberta, we should be very careful
Corey
28:01
careful as they run contrary to our interests here. But yeah, we will undo any of the good we might be trying to do with the other hand if we start going down this. We've already gone down this path way too much,
Corey
28:11
way too much. My friends in Ontario talk to me about this all of the time. It's being noticed out
Carter
28:16
You have friends in Ontario?
Corey
28:17
Ontario? Corey, let's talk about what Carter already teased here.
Zain
28:20
Friend. Corey, let's talk about what Carter teased here already, which is Daniel Smith is attending a forum tonight alongside Brian Jean and Todd Lohan, two other UCP leadership candidates by the Alberta Prosperity Project, APP. This is a pro-independence group. Up until, I believe it was Friday, Rebecca Schultz and Travis Taves were also on the roster. They both dropped out. I want to talk about them in a second. But the strategy scale, let's use Daniel Smith as a frame, Corey, for Daniel Smith to attend this. And of course, we now have some commentary on her, as Carter was mentioning. I'll read out the quote here. I personally have not given up on Canada yet. I understand why so many have. And then she goes on to say, this is the highlighted part. So I have a, I think there's a track that I'll be walking in parallel with the Alberta Prosperity Project. Once again, this is a pro-independence group, but I'm still trying to give Canada one more chance. That's a quote from Danielle Smith. Talk to me about the strategy scale here, Corey. I mean, I don't want to get super cynical, but if you need to and say this this is a great strategy. Do it, because that's what we're here doing. But give me your strategy scale score for Danielle Smith as she engages in this forum tonight.
Corey
29:31
I don't think it's a great strategy, so it's pretty easy for me to say that. It's a great strategy if you think the only way for you to win the leadership is to get some of these votes to come to you. But does anybody think in the roll-up, those other two people you've talked about wouldn't naturally find their home with
Corey
29:47
with uh daniel smith before you're talking about lowen and gene yeah yeah exactly before taves and and schultz and not that schultz is going to be there uh at that point but you've
Corey
29:57
you've got to start thinking about a general election that if you're daniel smith could be happening in
Corey
30:02
in october november i guess
Corey
30:04
because the the drop would happen in october um
Corey
30:07
here's the here's the brass tacks saying things like that not going to be popular with albertans as a whole if if if our listeners and the rest of the country could hear one thing. These are not mainstream opinions. I really need people to know this
Corey
30:20
notion of leaving the country, this notion of saying I'm one step away from giving up on Canada, not mainstream opinions in any way, shape, or form. And the more she brings that kind of energy towards the finish line here, it risks splitting past this race and into the next race. So why she would be doing this, to me, suggests maybe a bit of a – from
Corey
30:42
my outside view, it seems like a misreading of strategy. Now, maybe she's saying, I need these votes in order to get over that finish line. And we've talked about, you know, you win today and then you win tomorrow.
Corey
30:52
Doesn't mean she's not putting herself in the box still. Doesn't mean she doesn't still have that fundamental challenge that these words are going to hang her in a general election. And that general election might come sooner than she wants because she might think she gets six months to have a palate cleanser here and be a more moderate Danielle Smith when winning this thing. But she talks this way. She continues to talk this way. She starts playing footsie with separatists. That very first caucus vote, she might lose enough votes that she has a difficult choice. I'm not even saying that she will necessarily lose the majority. But does she want to give oxygen to a caucus of eight breakaway moderate conservatives who might be starting their own thing? In some ways, she has to have an election.
Corey
31:31
So to give herself range of motion, she needs to back away from this madness. So I think it's a fundamentally flawed strategy to to stand up on the stage with them and to make the kind of comments that both you and Steven have quoted.
Zain
31:43
Listeners are probably realizing Carter and Corey are terrible at actually following the rules of the strategy scale. Not one number has been initiated just yet. Carter, build on what Corey's saying here. Terrible strategy, or does it indicate perhaps her true standing in the race in some way? Could it be a misread or does it indicate her true standing in the race where where she may not have the margin that perhaps is externally being exuded by her campaign and then the media narratives around it.
Carter
32:15
I think it's worse than that. I think this is showing her true beliefs. I
Carter
32:19
I think she's actually saying
Carter
32:21
saying what she believes, and that is-
Carter
32:22
- This is conviction?
Carter
32:25
is who she is. She is saying, I am giving Canada one more chance, and then I'm going to take my ball and go home.
Carter
32:31
Because we're making a ton of money right now, again on royalties for what, for how long? Anybody want to spin the wheel of destiny? How long do we get these royalties? And then in what level
Carter
32:45
level of time are we back to the financial imbalance that has existed for almost 15 years prior to this little upswing? We are completely screwed if you take away these royalties, but they're there today. What happens tomorrow? tomorrow.
Carter
33:01
And Danielle doesn't give a shit about the tomorrow question. She just wants the today question. I think this is more reflective of who she is than any strategic ideas that we're bringing to the table. So in terms of a strategy scale, this is an F for me.
Carter
33:16
It's a total fail. There's no way that it could be any other number.
Zain
33:21
Hey, Carter, let's actually talk about... No way
Zain
33:26
way it could be any other number than F. Thank you, Carter. You're
Carter
33:28
You're welcome. You see, that was funny. Hey,
Zain
33:31
Hey, if you were running the Taves or the Schultz campaign, dropping out is obviously the right thing, but should you have dropped out and done something else? Was there an and that could have gotten you some attention to this? I'm just trying to think of, they kind of went by a whimper. It was almost like, oh, sorry, we didn't realize he was organizing this. Of course, we're out. And then they were gone.
Zain
33:52
It left something to be desired. So from a political strategy, Carter, was there something else they should or could have done? In the past, we've seen things as we're hosting our own forum or attending whatever. But what do you think? As they left, and to many as they are perhaps being considered as a top two reasonable alternatives, I'm going to put reasonable in air quotes because it depends on who you ask with
Zain
34:17
top two. Rightward shifting definition. Yeah. What
Zain
34:21
do you think they should have done rather than just drop out? Or do you think dropping out was the right strategy for them?
Carter
34:25
You know, September 1st has been declared Alberta Day. And maybe I would have announced a big event that we were going to hold in the park or something like that, that is Alberta in Canada Day.
Carter
34:38
Our Alberta involves Canada. Our Alberta is about Canada. So our Alberta Day is going to be focused on Canada. Bring your Canadian flags. flags you know let's reclaim them from the pierre poliev daniel smith anti-vaxxers i don't know give that a try why are you shaking your head you got something better stallion got a better
Zain
34:58
better idea you gotta or you know you feel like dropping out was the only thing they don't play on our turf walk away quietly
Corey
35:05
well this is pretty classic game theory right i they were all willing to just go
Corey
35:12
if nobody raised a fuss about it but the minute one of them broke away from it because they saw the advantage of being the person to stand up against this thing the rest of them who were not of the low in gene smith ilk had to drop out you know it's as simple as that and uh but just because they did that it didn't sort of change the fundamental calculation that led them to kind of passively drift towards that debate in the first place and that is that there are a lot of people in the modern united conservative party who are going to be
Corey
35:44
be a little sympathetic to that have you uh especially if you're a candidate like taves and you've got a big rural constituency in the northwest you
Corey
35:52
you you might find that those people don't
Corey
35:56
don't necessarily want you to stand up and stand up loudly against the idea of this thing your best solution was probably nobody raised a fuss but the minute somebody raised a fuss your second best solution was to quit without a fuss and to leave that forum without a fuss, certainly you're not going to start bringing this Alberta day into it. I mean, that's not even a Daniel Smith thing. That's a Jason Kenney thing. And that just
Carter
36:20
just starts to muddy all sorts of coalitions. You can tie it back to Jason. Great idea. I love it. I'm doubling down.
Zain
36:28
Corey, I'm going to go federal. And this story, it's not a huge story, but it's an interesting one from a strategy perspective. So, Carter, you remember Jared Kushner, right? You know, the guy who solved the Middle East crisis, Nobel Peace Prize, Jared Kushner. Yeah, well, so that
Zain
36:44
he's written a new memoir in which he characterizes
Zain
36:50
Krista Freeland being a very difficult negotiator. And
Zain
36:54
And Freeland has now responded in a media interview saying that Donald Trump has used bully tactics during their negotiation. She kind of expanded on on on the fact that uh you know was kind of defending her position in her negotiation carter i'm gonna actually i said cory but i'm gonna start with you carter on this
Zain
37:12
your strategy scale score for krista freeland responding to something like this now it's it's no mystery that donald trump has presidential ambitions again that could coincide with perhaps uh i shouldn't say a freeland administration but both those things don't seem totally outlandish if i say them out loud right like i don't think they're the craziest thing to say They might be in some ways, but they're not the craziest thing to say. So your strategy score for Christopher Freeland going after a former president with his calling him a bully and his bully tactics, are you in on the strategy? Are you out on the strategy? And what score are you giving it on a letter grade of A to Z, Carter?
Carter
37:46
On a letter grade of A to Z, I'm giving it an eight. I think that this is definitely something that Christopher Freeland should be doing. You like it? Yeah. I think the only thing I would change is be more aggressive.
Carter
37:56
Say, listen, I'm going to stand up for Canada. And if it means I'm seen by others as an aggressive negotiator, so be it. That's me standing up for Canada. And that's what we should be doing every time we step into the negotiating ring.
Carter
38:08
I think that that's actually really good for her brand. So good
Carter
38:13
good day for Chrystia Freeland. Good idea. Just, you know what, maybe just up
Carter
38:17
up the amplitude a little bit because there's no downside for being seen as someone who's an asshole to Donald
Carter
38:23
Donald Trump and Jared Kushner, the whiner, as I love to call them.
Zain
38:29
What do you think here, Corey? Is this like short-term gain, long-term don't know and shouldn't do it? How do you kind of read a play like this?
Corey
38:37
Yeah. Your point about they could end up having to negotiate directly with each other. The notion of a return of Trump just puts
Corey
38:46
puts a chill down my spine every time, but you're right. And if Canada is in that situation that's awkward
Corey
38:51
awkward for sure um but i give this strategy a d because ultimately her competency was attacked and in her defense she gave a soundbite that was about him being a bully which is not a defense of her competency being attacked that's uh that's that's like a different thing and in some ways makes her look weaker than she was i i would have been much happier if she had defended and stuck solely to the line of defending her competency or calling into question their competency, right? Well, it's, you know, of course, Jared Kushner would read that and think that it was a great win for them. That was part of our strategy. We knew that they had these pressures that were out there. We were more than happy to let them run out. We were more than happy to give them the kind of the nominal electoral wins if it meant that we got the real wins underneath the substance of kuzma right and um that would have been more my response i think that would have been the more mature response that would have been the one that would be less likely to set you up for trouble down the road i
Corey
39:54
i feel like she felt attacked and she lashed out and she lashed out on the areas where she thought he was weakest and she didn't think about
Corey
40:04
that she was supposed to be defending her strengths right
Corey
40:06
right and so it became like two separate fights. They're exchanging blows on different fronts. And that was not ultimately
Corey
40:15
ultimately helpful to her. And if she becomes prime minister at the same time, he's president,
Corey
40:20
not helpful to the country.
Carter
40:22
We're going to Europe if that happens, right guys? Like we've got a plan? Like we
Carter
40:25
can get out of here? I'm thinking like an Australia,
Corey
40:27
Australia, New Zealand thing, but yeah. Yeah,
Carter
40:29
Yeah, I know. Oh, that's good. To many, my name
Zain
40:30
name sounds Eastern European anyway. So Croatia for me. Belgium sounds very Croatian. I feel like I can get along very nicely there until they see me. Corey, I'm going to stick with you for our next one. This one's interesting. This one's multidimensional. Once again, not the biggest headline political story, but there's a lot here on strategy. So the Green Party of
Zain
40:49
of Canada, yes, that Green Party, the one that we spend disproportionate time on, Carter. Remember a few episodes ago? Why are we still talking? Like 50 minutes? Well, here
Corey
40:55
we go. Any time is disproportionate.
Zain
40:57
disproportionate. Strapping. Strapping, Carter. Oh, God. They've rejected a leadership candidate who refuses to take a French test. Now, why is this interesting? Well, because I know this person, Najeeb Judd from Edmonton. He's helped enemy Paul's election campaign last time. He's suggesting that he's got all the criteria that he needs to run, but he's refusing to take a French language test required by the party and refusing to take it on effectively EDI grounds, saying he's not, quote, not participating in any language test testing by a party that professes to stand for the principles of respect for diversity and social justice. He goes on to mention that a political party has generally allowed a leader to grow in this particular domain, not have the proficiency right away, but learn the language, get comfortable with it, be provided the supports. And he goes on to then say, it's the most egregious rule of the contest and an artificial barrier created to unintentionally or not move the goalposts on equity-deserving leadership hopefuls. And finally adds, no former leader or interim leader of the Green Party has been required to take such a test. the
Zain
42:01
the carter on the strategy scale of the party here let's talk about the
Carter
42:05
the party lens and then let's
Zain
42:06
let's talk about the party scale uh this perspective here what
Zain
42:09
what do you think of this this has been a party that's been criticized in the past for for effectively you know rallying against their own leader um for trying to torque the rules perhaps to get elizabeth may once again uh in some way shape or form leading them but from the party's perspective is this a great strategy? Is this a 10? Or is this a horrible strategy? And a one because what has resulted in is another, you know, racialized person in a CBC article talking about the Green Party and not so great of a light.
Carter
42:40
No, I mean, it's it's horrible for the Green Party. I mean, they just they just ran their first visible minority leader out. You know, she we can we've we spent way too much time on that discussion already. But, you know, they don't look like they're open to anybody. And as As my mother used to say, beggars can't be choosers. You know, like, who else have they got? Oh, yeah, Elizabeth May. I mean, it just looks like all they're doing is setting up the table for Elizabeth May to once again resume her lackluster leadership with no impact to be expected by any Canadians because she's not actually serving Canadians. She's serving herself. This is a party that's broken. spoken, um, to be, to be adding that arbitrary language requirement strikes me as the same as the, uh, the, the Mary Simon argument about, you know, Mary Simon didn't have French and English. She only had, and I can't remember the first
Carter
43:38
first nations language that she had, the, the Inuit language, but, and English, but that struck me as just plenty enough. Um, this candidate will be open to the electorate deciding. And my thinking is that this is probably going to be one of the the better candidates that they would be able to attract to their leadership race. And instead, they just fucked it up because they're not actually interested in having a different leader. They just want Elizabeth May to come back and rescue them. But Elizabeth May is the author of their demise, not the one who rescues them from their situation.
Zain
44:08
And in a large part, in a reason, he'll be a good candidate because he's a listener of the pod. And I mean, anyone who listens to the pod knows that either you run yourself or you put me up for leadership of anything. And how are those poster sales going, Corey?
Zain
44:21
Okay, Corey, what do you think of this from the party's lens on that strategy scale of one to 10? Is there merit here? Like, is there good strategy here? And then I actually want to use this as a jumping off point to talk about the broader topic of language proficiency before getting the job versus learning it on the job, because I think there's something very interesting there.
Corey
44:41
everything that's been said, I generally agree with the risk to the party, in particular, when it's already been accused of having an executive that overreaches, having an executive that overreaches on behalf of the previous leader, not being very responsive or thoughtful about equity deserving groups, in particular, their former leader, Annemie Paul, and
Carter
45:04
and how they treated
Corey
45:07
that creates all sorts of hazard and they should have just known better. I guess what I would also say is that normally my rule on these things would always be, let
Corey
45:15
let let the members decide like
Corey
45:17
why are you taking away the members decision as to whether it's important that this individual speaks french right that's that's something the membership can determine for themselves now it tells us an awful lot about the green party that they are
Corey
45:32
they're so small and we were talking a bit about how low the thresholds were to enter in terms of the number of members required and all of that that i'm imagining they assume that the members might just decide to go with Najib here, right? And then maybe
Corey
45:47
maybe the executive is deeply uncomfortable with that because it would make it less of a national party because you don't have that French language competency, right?
Corey
45:56
I guess that's one way that you can interpret it. But again, that's not for the executive to determine. That's for the membership to determine.
Corey
46:03
And you just sort of should throw it to them and
Corey
46:06
and let them conclude on this thing. If you're going to run leaderships like this, if you're not, If you want the executive to have this oversized say, well, tell you what, go to a delegated convention, create a bunch of delegates that are more about giving the executive's point of view on this, totally legitimate approach.
Corey
46:24
But this is just, there is nothing worse than a leadership contest that pretends to be one thing and is clearly another thing. And that's what the Greens have right now.
Zain
46:33
what would you suggest to Najeeb or someone in his position? Because I find this to be a really interesting strategy exercise as well, because he's now been rejected. He said he's going to appeal. He's gotten a bit of media attention. Is there anything strategically he can do here, like in what's seeming to be a very small universe of voters to appeal to them? Or is it all one of those things back to, and this is not a fair comparison in the least, but it's like a Patrick Brown situation. Good luck, dude. It's like the party gets to decide, not you. It's upon them and there's not much you can do. it
Carter
47:01
depends entirely on what his goal is does he want to you know win the leadership does he want to be in part of a of a leadership does she does he uh want the party to suffer uh or does he not want the party to suffer um my advice would be go for it keep taking them down keep beating them up um to me that is pretending like
Zain
47:21
like you're running yeah
Carter
47:22
yeah yeah that's fantastic keep
Carter
47:24
keep running um yeah
Carter
47:25
yeah yeah, go for it. Like, um,
Carter
47:27
um, he's got more attention than, than anybody has going to get for running for the leadership of the, uh, of
Carter
47:33
of the green party. So you may as well just keep building on what you've got. Like, uh, you know, sometimes you run against your competitor and sometimes you run against others. And this is a situation where you can literally run for leader of the green party against the green party itself. Uh, you may not win, but it's going going to be, uh, you
Carter
47:52
you know, good for your brand, I think, and, and bad for the green party brand.
Carter
47:56
Um, so the green party better pull their head out of their asses and decide what it is they actually want.
Carter
48:00
Um, and if they do decide to just quickly, you know, just continue to disqualify him, then at some point he's going to run out of wind in his sails and it's going to be over. But for the meantime, you may as well keep, um,
Carter
48:12
um, keep the wind in his own sails and keep pushing on this, on this issue. Cause I think it's something that the
Carter
48:16
the Canadian media at the very least are going to be very interested in.
Zain
48:21
cory finish this off here any strategic advice for for someone in his position
Zain
48:28
are on mute cory like a like a zoomer like you have decided to hit the mute button wow wow
Zain
48:35
i said zoomer i meant boomer i meant boomer car that's this i mean carter came in hot with his grandfather's style ipad view and now oh my goodness cory yes please please take it away with that brilliant insight.
Corey
48:50
What does he want? Does he actually want to be leader or is he just trying to create as much of a media storm and raise as much profile as possible? Because at
Corey
49:00
a certain point, your tactics will diverge. I think these initial ones are pretty much what they need to be. I'll also observe that the Green Party executive does
Corey
49:09
does tend to lose these things.
Corey
49:11
Listen, I'll go back to my overall point, and I think it's one that he could make as well. Let the members decide. decide uh i understand that you think this is an important requirement let the members decide
Corey
49:22
you wouldn't have a requirement that somebody is um you know a certain height or a certain wealth or anything like that we have a requirement that there's a base level of support within the party which is reflected through memberships uh you know signing up or you know not even sales like you just need the signatures plus uh the entry fee everything
Corey
49:42
everything else that's that's what what we're talking about here right that is exactly what we're talking about it's not a principle of the green party that you must be able to speak french the
Corey
49:52
the principles of the green party are commitment to the environment and you know all of the whatever they have on that list i support those let the members decide we're
Zain
50:01
we're going to leave that segment there move it on to our final segment are over under in our lightning round stephen carter you know a jolt of energy uh if you needed it well it's this segment because it's all for you stephen carter uh minister ahmed hussein was was warned about the government's anti-racist consultant, about his anti-Semitic tweets, about his tweets against the Black community, a significant amount of tweets by this individual who was given 130k plus of Heritage Canada money. Carter, overrated or underrated this controversy for the Liberals in terms of hiring an anti-racist consultant who turned out to be be racist?
Carter
50:40
Well, I mean, it's not
Carter
50:42
not underrated. That's for damn sure. So I guess it's properly rated. I mean, this is a huge mistake. I don't know how you do this. I don't know how you don't do a background check on someone who's going to be your anti-racism consultant and then find out that he's actually a racist. I mean, it's not like, oh, he's got some views that are a little little off brand, little, little bit out there. No, he's, he's actually a racist. He's actually saying things that he should be policing in his role. And instead of that, he's, he's saying them, I mean, it's, it's a tremendous mistake and it's a tremendous mistake for the minister. I mean, to be honest, this feels to me like something that creates a former minister. Um, because if the minister, it's one thing, if the minister didn't know, right. Lots of things, lots of people, uh, the minister doesn't need to know everything about everybody or every situation, but if it's true and the minister was given a heads up and did it anyways, or did not take action to protect the prime minister's office and the government, um, you know, the next time he walks into cabinet, uh, he, he's going to have to answer some very tough questions. And those, those questions should include, are you, are you able to continue to serve in this government as as a minister? And my answer would be, you're not, you're gone.
Zain
52:02
Quite the political controversy here, overrated or underrated in your mind? Is this just sensationalist in the moment? Or do you think the political controversy here is, to Carter's point, long lasting and potentially could be taking down a ministry here?
Corey
52:18
I think that in different times, it would for sure take down a minister, disaster because this is one of those things that is such an, I mean, this thing writes itself and let's just imagine it was a conservative government that did this and
Carter
52:32
and it was some fat
Corey
52:32
fat white guy from rural Alberta who was warned that this anti-racism consultant
Corey
52:38
consultant was actually a giant racist and took no action.
Corey
52:42
We'd all be lighting our hair on fire and we'd have very good reason to do it. So let's hold everybody to the same standard here and say that's not appropriate that the federal government would be at the sleep of the switch at that one, especially knowing that there were warnings now maybe
Corey
52:55
maybe i could spin uh maybe the warning came from somebody who was given 99 things that are not accurate so they just dismissed it right but we've heard no facts to that effect the the evidence as we have it right now is
Corey
53:07
is that a minister did not take action um
Corey
53:10
um and as a result everything
Corey
53:12
everything we've just talked about uh yeah i think it's i think it's awful uh
Corey
53:16
uh will it be forgotten quickly probably
Corey
53:19
probably because what will happen is the liberals will close ranks the conservatives will say things and the liberals will take it as an attack
Corey
53:26
but if we were taking an honest assessment of the judgment that led to this place it should scare the hell out of the pmo the judgment of your minister is so poor or
Corey
53:36
or the people around your minister like something is fundamentally fucking broken let's put it that way if you get warned that you are about to hire a racist for anti-racism training yeah
Corey
53:46
yeah i mean you just let that happen what what the hell else is going on in that ministry? I mean, for me, that's like the brown M&M rider times a thousand. Like, you know, this thing of the rock band
Carter
53:55
band that says there must be
Corey
53:57
be a thing of brown M&Ms, not because they care about all the M&Ms being brown, but because if you haven't done that, you haven't done the safety checks. You probably haven't set the stage up right. You haven't double bolted things, whatever those are along the way.
Corey
54:08
I would be really scared what else is going on in that ministry if this kind of thing can slip through the cracks. But
Carter
54:14
But this is also one of those situations where it reflects the negative implication for the prime minister's office itself when our good friend uh kent hair lost his ministry it was in part because the allegations that he was accused of reflected um something that was actually going on in the prime minister's office as well the prime minister uh was being accused of you know doing similar types of such things you know groping in colonna kind of situations well this prime minister also is someone who's worn blackface this is prime minister is someone who who has a tenuous relationship with what proper
Carter
54:51
And this minister has brought all of that back up. For me, this is a no-brainer. The minister's gone. This should happen. And if it wasn't the summer break, the minister would be gone by the end of the week.
Zain
55:06
Well, Carter, let me ask you this. A political follow-up for Pierre Polyevera, whose campaign has ignored calls to disavow the far right extremist identified as a national security threat. He's caught in this picture where he's shaking hands with this individual. His campaign went on the offensive, said, I don't track everyone's hand I shake. There's thousands of people we don't register that'd be like, I've shaken Justin Trudeau's hand and that guy's worn blackface. So I'm not going to disavow it ultimately. The political fallout here for peer policy, overrated or underrated? Do you feel like this is this is something perhaps even related to the story we just talked about earlier that could kind of cloud it over and and and give paulie ever free pass or do you think there's real consequences here for pierre i
Carter
55:49
i think that about the worst thing that could happen in politics is that everybody's whose hand you shake uh then goes through a some sort of a post-hoc analysis as to whether or not they're they're
Carter
56:00
they're appropriate to shake their hands i mean canadians will get their hands shaken having said that that's not the problem the
Carter
56:05
the problem isn't that pierre paulie shook this guy's hand. The problem is that Pierre Polyev's campaign attracts these guys. So that's the problem. So it's a different problem than the one that Pierre's actually trying to address. He is trying to distract us from the real issue, which is his campaign attracts racists because Pierre Polyev is talking in dog whistles that people can hear uh all over the place i mean he's not even subtle about how about how he is seen and what he is trying to achieve um through his his politics um is it the same type
Carter
56:46
type of situation as what as what the prime minister faces kind of right kind of the same situation in that you know this this reinforces some of the worst stereotypes
Carter
56:57
stereotypes of the conservative party and uh it shows to me the Complete lack of judgment that the Pierre Polyev team has.
Carter
57:09
But I'll tell you, what Minister Hussain has done is, you know, mutes the attacks on Pierre from the liberals. That's for damn sure.
Zain
57:19
Same question to you. The overrated or underrated in terms of the political impact this will have on Pierre Polyev in his campaign for not distancing himself, disavowing this individual, but in fact, doing what he's always done, going on the offensive um saying i don't you know vet everyone's hand that i shake i kind of mentioned earlier you know i can't be held responsible for justin trudeau's many racist outbursts just because i've met and shaken his hand before what do you think of that and then what do you think of the the ramifications for pierre polly after i
Corey
57:50
think i hate that we've gotten to a place where everybody seems to agree that the best defense is a good offense um his statement that
Corey
57:57
that you're referencing that ended with this swipe against justin trudeau i actually thought was a fine statement up until the last line, which is, I'm
Corey
58:05
I'm talking to a lot of people. These are open events. You know, I don't necessarily know who's coming in. We don't vet these individuals. And
Corey
58:12
And if the last line, instead of saying, I can't be held accountable, for example, for the fact I shook the hands of Justin Trudeau, who's a racist, right? If instead it had been,
Corey
58:23
you know, and I absolutely, you know, condemn the views of this individual and, you know, end of statement. I think I personally would have been fairly satisfied with that. But instead, what I find interesting
Corey
58:38
interesting and alarming and kind of maybe telling in a way, and it all sort of ties together is he
Corey
58:45
he hasn't really gone very strong on the condemnation. And I think, why the hell not? Because this is a very... I mean, this is the group, this is the leader of the group looking
Corey
58:54
looking at killing RCMP officers out in Saskatchewan, right?
Corey
58:57
I mean, that's very extreme points of view.
Corey
59:01
but then we also have um
Corey
59:03
um i think poliev's past and the fact that he's walked with james top and the convoy and all that and his big risk is is
Corey
59:12
that it starts to seem like it's telling a story about him and his comfort with these points of view because it's it's
Corey
59:19
i don't you know it's so much further than mainstream and it's so much further even than james top who's not mainstream stream and it's further than the convoy but it all just starts to feel directly like a march in one place and so his big risk there is that it's telling a story about him and there will be people like me whose eyebrows raise and say what's
Corey
59:42
what's so fucking difficult about saying that you
Corey
59:45
you condemn this guy why why has that not been stronger language on this front and
Corey
59:50
and well i think in general i agree you shouldn't be held accountable for who you shake hands with lord
Corey
59:55
lord knows every Every politician shakes a million hands, even
Corey
59:58
even people, and every politician pretends to know you, right? But they don't actually know you a lot of the time. I seriously doubt Pierre Poyev knew whose hand he was shaking.
Corey
1:00:08
It does start to feel like, well, what's your problem here? What's the story? Why are you, why
Corey
1:00:13
why do you feel the need to start throwing wild haymakers instead of just saying, yeah, I condemn this guy?
Zain
1:00:19
Corey, I'm going to start the final one with you and let's circle back to something we discussed at the top of the episode.
Zain
1:00:24
Let's talk about Bell Media. Um, the advice you'd give them today, I mean, there's obviously the legal terrain, the business ops terrain. We don't know where their heads are at on any of this situation. What we do know is
Zain
1:00:37
is the story has lingered that corporate Canada has now jumped on this right, uh, opportunistically or, or within brand, uh, you know, existing brand containers that we, as we've discussed before, what
Zain
1:00:47
what advice would you have to, to, to, from a corporate comm strategy messaging perspective? effective? You know, we look at these exercises in the political and outside of the political domain. This seems to be one of them. What advice would you have? Because, you know, we don't know a lot of their intentions, but what do you feel like they've done wrong? And what do you feel like they could do right as it relates to our expertise, which is around Tom's marketing and, you know, the strategy overlay between politics and corporate
Corey
1:01:14
Well, so you're right. And I do think it's worth saying right off the top, Op, we don't necessarily know what kind of legal constraints they might be under, real or imagined by the lawyers. Anybody who's had to work with corporate lawyers will sort of say, oh, yeah, I sort of know that dance, the things you're allowed to say, the things you're not allowed to say. We don't know what the executives may have put upon themselves
Corey
1:01:33
themselves through various historical
Corey
1:01:36
historical things that have gone on that we have no line of sight on. Reasons certain words can be used, certain words can't be used, the way things have approached things in the past. but all
Corey
1:01:46
all of that said um the
Corey
1:01:49
first thing i often tell uh crisis comms i think i mentioned this the other episode is like first
Corey
1:01:56
first of all ask yourself were you wrong you know like really seriously truly this is not like an oprah soul searching thing but if you're in a situation where you realize uh
Corey
1:02:06
uh i've been defending the indefensible for two weeks you've just wasted two weeks right you've just you've just been taken bloody to the place you could have gone on day one And I still get the sense that CTV has
Corey
1:02:18
has some sort of weird combination of stubbornness, trying to avoid certain words, trying to avoid, yeah, maybe we acted too rashly. Maybe we didn't, you know, even now I think they're saying they regret the way that this all went down. Well, actually, if they had even said that a week and a half ago, they'd be in a better position.
Corey
1:02:35
But it's handing in an essay late now.
Corey
1:02:38
It's got to be even better. It's a day late. It's a dollar short. The same thing that would have been sufficient a week and a half ago no longer is. So they
Corey
1:02:44
they need to sit down and to fundamentally say, what
Corey
1:02:47
what are we just not backing down on?
Corey
1:02:51
Really test whether that's reasonable. And
Corey
1:02:53
And what are we willing to give a bit on? What are the consequences for internal audiences? What are the consequences for external audience? Look at the crisis in front of them as it is, not as they wish it were, and make some decisions and then act quickly on them. Because right now what I'm seeing is, I'll
Corey
1:03:08
I'll tell you from the outside as somebody who who has done this crisis comp stuff for a long time, it has this feeling of watering
Corey
1:03:14
watering down good advice. And so you see the statement that gets halfway where they need them to go, but not the whole way. And then a week later, it's the statement that's the whole way where you needed to be last week, but now it's only halfway to where the ball has moved.
Corey
1:03:29
fundamentally about sitting down and putting your ego aside and just assessing the situation as it is. I think it's something that CTV and Bell have shown. no, no evidence that they've got to handle on.
Zain
1:03:42
Carter, finish off with you in terms of where they're at now. We don't know all the intentions, all the moving pieces, but from a comms marketing strategy lens, what do you think?
Carter
1:03:54
Well, I don't think they're going to change any actions, right? So the actions that they could take right now are to bring back Lisa Lieflam, to fire the executive. They're not doing that. They're not firing the executive who fired her. And they're not going to make any substantial changes. the thing left, shut
Carter
1:04:10
shut the fuck up. You're done.
Carter
1:04:13
You're done. There's no apologies. There's nothing you can do. So you've done the wrong thing. You've
Carter
1:04:18
You've tried to manage it. Take your hit, take your punishment. It's over. You're
Carter
1:04:22
You're going to get beat up. You're probably going to lose some viewers.
Carter
1:04:27
How big is your fuck up? I don't know. Will you lose market share? Maybe, maybe not, but that's where you are right now. Just taking your beating because
Carter
1:04:35
because it's over in terms terms of what you can do.
Carter
1:04:38
Crisis response is called crisis response because you've got to respond in the middle of the crisis. This crisis is now two weeks in the rear view mirror and it's over.
Carter
1:04:47
You've lost the opportunity. In politics- But it's also the read.
Zain
1:04:51
read. But Carter, this is the read, right? No,
Carter
1:04:54
on. Everybody wants to hire me to fix things after you broke them.
Carter
1:04:58
Corey says all the time, all issues manifest themselves as communication issues. You are are very unlikely to be able to solve an issue like this with simple communications. What
Carter
1:05:09
What are you going to do now? We're sorry we were wrong. Are you going to bring her back? No, we're not going to bring her back. Then how sorry are you? Are you going to put a consequence on the guy who thinks that gray hair on television is a bad idea only on women? No, we're not going to put a consequence on him. Shut up. Everybody wants us to come in two weeks too late and solve things. You got to bring us in at the beginning and then we maybe have a chance. We don't have a chance anymore. It's over. You've got to take your beating.
Zain
1:05:36
I think, Corey, you may want to retort on this as we finish off.
Corey
1:05:41
I don't even necessarily think Stephen is wrong that that's a strategy they could have chosen. And again, this goes to if they knew they were going to do that two weeks ago, they should have acted very differently because they've now got things like internal reviews that are going to come back up. And those internal reviews may say this was bad. And all of a sudden they've got another problem with that
Corey
1:05:59
executive who is perhaps being called out for these things they have kicked the can and they have made things worse uh if that was their strategy right like if their strategy is shut up they are doing a terrible job of shutting up right
Corey
1:06:13
if their strategy is something different they need to sit down and think about what that strategy is there
Corey
1:06:17
is no strategy is okay we we
Corey
1:06:19
we have gone so far overboard here uh this was a mistake we've got a big internal issue now uh there's this whole brewing thing about how this This place treats people. And so we've got to make some fundamental changes. They should have made those fundamental changes. But now we're in this limbo where
Corey
1:06:37
where I think Stephen's right. They're trying to solve it with words. They're trying to solve it with a review and with words. This
Carter
1:06:43
This is Bell Media. They do that. Every
Carter
1:06:44
Every third day, they fire all the people who work at a radio station.
Carter
1:06:48
That's what Bell Media does. This is who Bell Media is. And they weather the storm. And their properties are either more valuable or less valuable. I don't track them. I don't give a shit. But, you know, the people who work for them don't seem to have very much good to say about them.
Carter
1:07:04
It's Bell Media. They know what they're doing in terms. They want to maximize their shareholder value. They don't give a shit about the products that they have. All they care about is whether or not they're getting the highest possible advertising rates on their shows. And that's it. it so you know there's no advertiser boycott that's going to actually occur there's no you know wendy's i would be willing to bet is actually going to show up on on ctv and bell media products i would bet i'd bet a significant amount of money that wendy's is still running at on on ctv that's a great
Corey
1:07:37
like that is a great point
Carter
1:07:37
point fucking weather it does
Zain
1:07:39
their money follow their mouth on this one that that is interesting for both i guess both dove and and and wendy's and and whoever else jumps into the corporate fray on that, I guess it's fair to say that they've left a lot up in the air.
Zain
1:07:53
Unlike Flair Airlines. Okay, we're going to leave it there. That's a wrap on it. I fucking nailed it. Oh, my goodness. You know, when they're going to talk about the volleyball scene, they're not going to talk about Top Gun anymore. They're going to talk about this. Just the volley and the spike. Oh, my God.
Zain
1:08:06
We're going to leave it there.
Carter
1:08:07
there. That's a wrap on episode 999.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999