Transcript
Zain
0:02
This is the strategist episode 999 point here we go 999999999 my name is Zain Velji with me as always Corey Hogan Stephen Carter let me tell you something I had to gear up for that I
Zain
0:14
I had to a little disappointed you
Carter
0:15
you didn't do it in 9999999 like turn it into a song you know like I did turn it
Zain
0:20
it into a song once and then it became a bit and then you ruined it so I remember
Zain
0:25
you ruined it uh
Zain
0:27
what's going on well
Corey
0:28
well zane i'm just doing the mental math of how
Corey
0:32
how many shows we would have to do before the majority of the show as you just say in the number nine and if
Corey
0:37
if we're ever going to drop this oh
Corey
0:40
math very tired bit it's
Zain
0:42
it's not it's not that tired if you think about it because i mean how
Carter
0:46
going on we do you know
Zain
0:48
know it's actually one of those those things where you you can quantitatively see how long it's been going on, which I like. I like. It
Corey
0:55
It actually has that over 9%. Because
Zain
0:57
Because you know what? Nothing's funnier than measuring comedy. Like
Zain
1:03
Nothing's funnier than measuring it. Carter, you know what also isn't funny? The law. But do you know what helps? The lowest price. Yeah. And when the lowest price is the law,
Zain
1:15
And I can't think of a better time in history
Zain
1:18
where Zellers could make a comeback, Stephen Carter, because Zellers is coming back and we
Zain
1:24
we could be an entirely a Zellers podcast going forward. But any thoughts on the Hudson Bay Company bringing back what
Zain
1:30
what I'm sure was a second home to all of us, Zellers?
Carter
1:34
Well, I'm just hoping that they do the turkey with the gravy and the vegetables on the white bread.
Carter
1:40
That was good stuff.
Carter
1:42
So if they do that, then I'm all in.
Carter
1:44
But, you know, have
Carter
1:45
have they thought of the slogan, Logan, Zellers, the Flair Airlines of retail?
Zain
1:49
That's not bad, Carter. That's not bad. Now, Corey, they are our sponsor, right?
Zain
1:54
They, in this case, is
Corey
1:55
is unclear. That's what we call an unclear antecedent in the business.
Zain
1:59
business. Ah, okay, okay.
Corey
2:00
I'm okay with that one because there's some wiggle room.
Zain
2:03
Okay, that's pretty good. So we're legally fine. That's good. You know, Corey, what I loved about Zellers was the lack of separation between the smoking and the non-smoking areas in the restaurant. Oh, that was good. And I really hope that does make a comeback. Any Zellers nostalgia tales to share with us that you would like to relive in 2022? Well,
Corey
2:21
Well, I'll tell you this.
Corey
2:22
The Hudson's Bay Company once owned most of this country, and now they're resurrecting a value brand because they're struggling. You know, how the mighty have fallen.
Corey
2:32
Although I do think it's really great that we'll be able to get our Zeddy Teddy Bears again. again and yeah but
Carter
2:40
but my mom's really excited because she was you know she used to tell us that sears was up market because there was a zellers that
Zain
2:48
is interesting from a strategy perspective yeah
Carter
2:50
yeah to unfortunately zellers back
Zain
2:51
back into the mix so that it
Zain
2:53
bump everything else up in the value chain yeah there's
Carter
2:56
there's nothing there's no sears left so it's kind of a it's a wasted opportunity i
Corey
3:01
i think this is just i truly think this is destined to fail i think this is the thing that'll have like a bit of nostalgia and then people will remember why zellers went out of business exactly
Corey
3:10
called amazon is this thing called walmart and i don't know if there's much of a place for brazellers
Corey
3:15
brazellers in this day and age every now and then people try to do this like resurrect an iconic canadian brand and
Corey
3:21
and it just you know then we get sad again when it disappears one more time carter
Zain
3:25
carter he doesn't sound like much of a patriot that's what i'll say um
Zain
3:28
um no he doesn't and two-thirds american people
Carter
3:31
people don't understand guys
Zain
3:32
guys i want to spend most of this episode are you two-thirds american is that you're just that's
Corey
3:37
not really a calculation you can easily do yeah yeah carter
Zain
3:41
does that work three
Zain
3:42
three fifteens two-thirds how does this work two
Carter
3:45
two-thirds i don't want to get into it if he's not willing to talk about it i'm not willing to talk about it either he
Carter
3:50
he doesn't like it when i put words in his mouth so you know this is something that we can't go through we
Zain
3:54
we are doing a this you don't know this yet but we're doing an entire episode on this next topic carter uh and it is your specialty so i expect you to bring the a fucking game let's
Zain
4:05
let's move it on to our first segment our first segment swearing in ceremony
Carter
4:11
you know what we're talking about
Zain
4:12
i want to talk about i want to talk about swearing in politics it
Zain
4:15
it is all the rage or i should say it is all the fucking rage yeah
Zain
4:20
sorry swearing has always been a part of politics in the sense of the back rooms and how many politicians do we know who swear like sailors mostly all of them um but i
Zain
4:31
i want to talk about swearing as a political strategy cursing cussing swearing whatever we call it because we're seeing a lot more of it carter uh you know we saw a lot more of it uh in the 2020 democratic primary one by one beto o'rourke who swore multiple times on the debate stage after mass shootings most recently he actually did it just a couple weeks ago where he called a greg abbott supporter a motherfucker uh at
Zain
4:55
at a rally we're
Zain
4:56
we're now also seeing it on our side of the border with peterborough mayor uh diane terrian who
Zain
5:01
who was called to respond to a scene that unfolded in her city over the weekend with q anon conspiracy theorists who purport to be the queen of canada who are making citizens arrests yes that is a sentence i'd read or trying to trying
Zain
5:15
thank you carter and
Zain
5:16
and a response in a tweet was people have been asking me to comment on the events the past weekend in peterborough i hate giving airtime spotlight to these imbeciles here's my comment fuck off you fuck wads was
Zain
5:27
was pretty much what she said on twitter that is a quote but
Zain
5:30
but carter there has to be a strategy here or there has to be something that's going on and i think there's a few theories we can talk about but
Zain
5:37
but before i get into all of that because i do want to spend time on it has
Zain
5:41
has swearing always been a part of politics. I just brushed by that. I set it as kind of our baseline fact.
Zain
5:48
Talk to me about the relationship of swearing in politics, of cussing, of expressing yourself with the language. I mean, we do it on this podcast, so we can use that as a bit of a meta example. But
Zain
5:58
talk to me about it, your relationship with it, how you've seen it evolve from a staffing perspective, how you've seen it evolve from a candidate perspective. And then let's get into the strategic side of this conversation, because I think there is meat on the bone there. well
Carter
6:10
well i mean let me read to you uh a review that we actually had on this podcast uh what their mommy didn't let them swear when they were little and so they decided to swear throughout throughout every podcast episode the discussion is good and the knowledge is wide but the profanity is just a turn off there's no need for it but they seem to enjoy it i don't says richard in calgary fuck you richard you're a dick there
Carter
6:35
there i solved that problem thank
Corey
6:37
you it's been sitting on that for a while yeah
Carter
6:40
yeah it was very quick
Corey
6:41
quick it was just like is that your desktop background
Carter
6:45
how else did you pull it up so
Zain
6:47
so quickly you didn't know what we're talking about today no
Carter
6:50
no i had no idea i never did he's
Zain
6:52
waiting like six episodes to try to insert it i've
Carter
6:56
yeah and i'm ready to go anyways um swearing was not a thing there was no swearing back in And, you
Carter
7:03
you know, the public statements or, you know, when there was no certainly no swearing at
Carter
7:08
at the electorate, there
Carter
7:09
there were certain tons of swearing in the back rooms, tons of private in
Zain
7:13
in private. Right. I mean, yeah,
Carter
7:14
yeah, I mean, they they swear like sailors, as you alluded to, Zane. And so there was a public persona that, you know, the public public
Carter
7:21
public what the public would see and what the public saw was maybe not genteel. That's not necessarily the right word, but certainly not profane, not using profanity. And that was back in the days of, you know, Joe Clark and candidates like that. And I
Carter
7:38
I know that Nahed Nenshi in 2010 didn't swear on the campaign trail.
Carter
7:43
You know, I mean, even even his use of the word Nenshi nouns, you know, he wouldn't call them what he wanted to call them. So he created a Nenshi
Carter
7:50
Nenshi nouns type of thing that became a meme during
Carter
7:53
during the floods in 2012.
Carter
7:56
you know, those types of politicians certainly existed and they continue to exist. But now there's politicians that do drop the F-bomb or say shit or reflect, I think, the more normative views of language now. The mores around what we're supposed to be saying and what we're allowed to say have changed dramatically in my 50 years. so people people swear and they swear in a lot more situations and a lot more circumstances than they once did and now politicians are using it and
Carter
8:28
and why well to do what beto o'rourke did he got three or four days of coverage uh if you're going to get coverage for dropping the f-bomb um you know you don't get coverage when you start off dropping you know the word shit and
Carter
8:40
and then people you know covered
Carter
8:41
covered that and then they stop and
Carter
8:43
and then you someone says fuck and you you get some coverage. And then Beto
Carter
8:46
Beto O'Rourke has to lift it to motherfucker. And
Carter
8:49
And this mayor topped him. I mean, it was fantastic. And you know what? We agreed with her, which is what made the tweet really good, because there was an us and an end of them.
Zain
9:00
There's a strategy element here that I think you've just hit on a bit, Carter, which is like,
Zain
9:05
how much public support or how much wind behind your back do you need to
Zain
9:09
to kind of make that point or underline it but cory your
Zain
9:12
your thoughts on this in terms of like cussing in private and politics swearing in private and what's
Zain
9:17
what's changed what's is there been like a conversion moment is carter right that this is now like people just
Zain
9:23
just using more normative or authentic language that they would speak in privately now bringing that to the public domain so
Corey
9:31
in the words of chris rock in the 2003 movie dave you show me a grown man that's never said shit and i'll show you somebody that's full of shit.
Corey
9:41
And I think there is something to that. Swearing is seen as more candid. In fact, that there was this study
Corey
9:47
study that was done in 2014, Swearing and Political Discourse by Nicoletta Cavazza and Margarita Guidetti.
Corey
9:54
And what they found was that people trust profanity
Corey
9:57
profanity-laden messages more. And
Corey
10:00
And this seems to be subconscious because when you ask people, do you like the profanity? They say, no, no, no, I don't. It makes me like them less. But based
Zain
10:08
based on all sorts of
Corey
10:08
of other tests recall and whatnot they end up
Zain
10:10
up that's interesting because
Corey
10:12
you know it's seen as something that you know we're in this moment where people know it's something you're not supposed to do so when somebody does it they must be telling you what they really think because everybody swears you know you're not supposed to and so when you swear you're slipping out your authentic self into the political discourse so that's part of the power of swearing like
Zain
10:32
like a revelatory almost like i'm revealing to you what my oh interesting okay
Corey
10:35
okay yeah the other part is what carter talked about that shock value that newsworthiness you just got to keep dialing up that dial right and it's you know i can think about politicians in the 80s and 90s you'd be like pardon my language but he's full of crap you know like
Corey
10:50
like who's who's gonna moderate things in that context now but that you know crap isn't gonna scare anybody at this point so you've gotta up up
Corey
10:57
up the words right and
Corey
10:59
and all of a sudden um you know they'll
Corey
11:02
they'll be dropping c-bombs like crazy at this point by 2024 but it's a The combination of the shock
Zain
11:07
shock value. Or by the end of the show,
Corey
11:08
show, depending on Carter's mood.
Corey
11:11
Part of the shock value and part of the perception of being candid.
Zain
11:16
Carter, I guess this is so broad of a question, but let me start it at the broadest point.
Zain
11:23
Is it a good strategy? And if so, when is it a good strategy? Because there are conditions that we may not necessarily notice,
Zain
11:30
notice, but there are conditions that we have seen profanity, at least in recent years, be used that have some commonality or there's a pattern to it. So talk to me about the strategy here.
Zain
11:41
Is it a good strategy? And when do you think it's a good strategy?
Carter
11:45
It's a good strategy when you use it like Beto O'Rourke used it and like the mayor of Peterborough.
Carter
11:50
Peterborough. It's Peterborough, right?
Carter
11:54
used it to create an in-group and out-group dynamic.
Carter
11:56
And when you use it to create an in-group and out-group dynamic, then it's something that's really powerful if
Carter
12:01
the other side are fucking but fuckwits then you're you're creating a a barrier
Carter
12:07
barrier on the side that you're on the side that everybody else is on is is a good thing if you're to walk up to a flower and say that's a fucking beautiful flower it's not going to have the same type of impact so
Carter
12:18
so the in-group out-group dynamic is super important and you want to have like an 80 20 rule what
Corey
12:24
what a poll what a weird thing to say guys
Carter
12:27
guys i'm not going gonna lie to you it is 600 degrees and where i'm staying right now what
Zain
12:31
what are you doing i am
Carter
12:33
am so fucking hot you're
Zain
12:35
you're like making love to a neck pillow for the
Carter
12:39
this is ice this is ice and i'm just trying to cool off and
Carter
12:43
and it is so hot where are you so i'm not i'm in my apartment in surrey
Carter
12:49
hey how's the fan off because cory's like i can hear what's that noise what's the noise so the fan is turned off and i'm i am sweating so much it looks like my nipples are leaking like it is it is so
Corey
13:04
never been happier this is not a visual medium yeah
Zain
13:07
yeah we are broadcasting
Carter
13:08
broadcasting live to 17 people aren't we hey doesn't
Zain
13:10
doesn't doesn't uh surrey have a uh provincial
Zain
13:13
provincial police force that you can call in to help with your situation there right
Carter
13:17
right now neither the surrey police nor the rcmp are responding to calls it is too hot everybody
Carter
13:22
everybody is is dying so i've got watermelon i've got water with ice which cory hates because he hates the ice cubes uh i've got an ice pack i'm i'm muscling through this so fucking
Carter
13:34
fucking flower was funny though i
Carter
13:37
i thought it was good okay alliteration you
Zain
13:39
your spots when you're when you're actually authentic emotion when else when else
Carter
13:42
else is a good strategy
Zain
13:43
to me about strategy it's
Carter
13:44
it's it's it's about the in group out group it's not just about being authentic explain in
Zain
13:48
in group out group i think it makes sense but tease it
Carter
13:51
it out so in group in group and out group is is creating people with sides right you want to be able to have a group of people that are on your side and a group of people that are not on your side and you're not saying simply
Zain
14:00
simply just from like the partisan divide that's not what you're talking about
Carter
14:03
about no because if you do the i mean you could do it with the fucking republicans right i hate those fucking republicans you could do that but it doesn't create a big enough out group
Carter
14:11
right or small enough out group what you really want to do is is get a small out group and a big in group. And that's what both Beto O'Rourke and
Carter
14:18
and the Peterborough mayor did, whose name escapes me. And you'll remind me of it at some point, Diane. Yeah,
Carter
14:25
She, you know, both of them created a very small out group, these people over there, and a very large in group, the rest of us. And I think that when you do it like that, you're able to create, you're able to use the F-bomb in a much, much
Carter
14:40
much more progressive, you know, productive
Carter
14:42
productive fashion. You wouldn't just say someone's policy is fucking stupid because then you're not creating anything.
Carter
14:49
The shock value may be enough to get coverage, but when you're able to use the shock value with the creation of a large group of people that are on your side, the in-group, I think it's a much more successful use. And it just so happens the two pieces of use that we're talking about did use in-group and out-group. it.
Zain
15:05
That's interesting. Corey, do you agree with that? That the strategy on at least how we've seen it applied thus far has
Zain
15:11
has this in-group, out-group dynamic where you need a vast majority on your side and a slim minority that you're opposing so that you can kind of have the wind behind your back and perhaps get away with it, if I can say that.
Corey
15:24
Well, there's something to that. And it does, in my opinion, lean into that kind of the candid thing and the impression thing. The idea is we
Corey
15:32
we all all wear different masks at different times i speak much more formally at work than i do on this podcast give you a sense i once had a boss who like three months in thought i was deeply
Corey
15:43
deeply pious because she'd never heard me swear right now clearly not a listener of the podcast
Corey
15:50
but when you start using language like that you are in many ways saying like i'm
Corey
15:58
i'm in the loop with you we talk like this because we have a more casual more formal relationship you're using
Corey
16:03
to sort of define that
Corey
16:05
that you know you're in a very different setting and so there's there's a lot to that there's this idea that by using language like that it's not so much that you're just aggressively excluding a group it's that you're talking in a way that you normally would only talk to friends and associates rather
Corey
16:22
people that you are talking to from a a mountaintop or giving a mayoral address or something to that effect carter
Zain
16:28
carter we've talked about some of its strategic upsides i'm going to ask you what might sound like a silly question but lay it on me are
Zain
16:34
are we not swearing enough in politics like
Zain
16:38
like like in the like i'm just like take it for what it is right from like the perspective of its upside drawing
Zain
16:45
drawing attention to big moments and i've got one other theory i want to post to you guys in a second but
Zain
16:50
but are we not not doing it enough is
Carter
16:53
mean it really depends on what your objective is and who your politician is i think that there's a tremendous opportunity for younger politicians to be using it aoc i think came out of came you know in her nomination was dropping f-bombs i mean she she's just you know she's younger she can get away with that i'm not sure you know you're going to be able to get away with it with some of the the
Carter
17:12
the older politicians certainly not some of the older uh republicans
Carter
17:16
or maybe you can maybe their don't give a shit kind of attitude
Carter
17:20
might enable them to do some of that but who is the voter you're trying to appeal to and
Carter
17:25
and will they be yeah
Carter
17:26
yeah will they be will they
Carter
17:29
they be part of the group that you're trying to create so if you go back to my in-group out-group you certainly don't want to put people who are you
Carter
17:35
you know pious friends of Corey's work persona
Carter
17:39
on the outs with you just because you dropped an f-bomb trying to get some attention from the New York from the New York Times
Zain
17:45
I'm going to ask you the opposite, Corey, in some ways. Are we kind of in a moment where in
Zain
17:52
in striving for authenticity or what you've called that casual sort of like, hey, we can level with each other. That's the relationship we have, electorate, that
Zain
18:03
we've gone from the role of a politician who's representing citizens
Zain
18:07
citizens making big decisions in governments at any level to
Zain
18:10
to too casual of a relationship that we kind of might be going too far in the other direction. Is there a case to be made there? Perhaps maybe looking at this moment and seeing all the upside from something like this and thinking that, OK, this is just the track that we're headed on till it
Zain
18:27
it kind of, you know, backfires.
Corey
18:30
Um, maybe. I'd maybe take that and do a little bit of a different interpretation here. It's
Zain
18:35
It's not so much backfire
Corey
18:36
backfire that I would worry about in terms of deploying this tactic more aggressively.
Corey
18:41
It's diminishing returns. So you want to pick your moment, right? The next time Beto O'Rourke drops an F-bomb, it's not going to have the same effect as the
Corey
18:50
the first time. Which is
Zain
18:50
is like Carter said, he kind of escalated the language the most recent time in some ways.
Corey
18:54
Yeah. Like in 1939, there was a famous movie, Dave, that had a famous quote, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. And that shocked audiences apparently at the
Corey
19:03
That line doesn't even register as a shocking, I mean, the sentiment in the movie is shocking, but the language is not shocking anymore.
Corey
19:10
And you fast forward to 1970, Altman had this film, Dave. It had the word fuck in it for the first time.
Corey
19:17
now the idea that you would say, counting
Corey
19:20
the number of f words in a movie that's that's just not something that's going to happen anymore because it's just so casual in fact you can keep like a pg rating with one or two well placed bucks right so these things change and they shift and a politician i think about so many other political tactics where people have said things uh that at one point we're like wow that's really fresh that's invigorating they say it
Carter
19:43
it like it is and
Corey
19:44
and by the fourth candidate doing that the fifth candidate, it's tired, it's stale. So if you want profanity to be useful, you really need to pick your moments. In some ways, it's a bit like what we often critique
Corey
19:55
critique oppositions on, which is that they ping at everything and everything's an 11 on the outrage meter.
Corey
20:01
And if everything's an 11 on the outrage meter,
Corey
20:03
then nothing's an outrage. Same deal. If everything's so outrageous that you're swearing about it, nothing's outrageous. It loses its effect. And so if politicians want want to make use of this currency of profanity. They need to know when to deploy it. And they need to know that it's not the solution to everything. To Carter's point, there
Corey
20:22
there are people who, if it's used in an environment or a context or in response to an event that
Corey
20:27
that doesn't seem to warrant it, will just be turned off by it.
Corey
20:31
Say, this is somebody who's not in control. It's not that they're candid. It's that they're a loose cannon. It's that they're a lunatic. It's that that they can't manage
Corey
20:37
manage to maintain their composure because why would anybody be swearing about, for example, coupon
Corey
20:44
coupon expirations, right? Just to, it's something you've got to be. Flowers or flowers or flowers, flowers. Yeah, man.
Zain
20:52
You just said flowers.
Zain
20:54
Cardi, you wanted to jump in there. You, you had your hand up. Unless you were just, this
Carter
20:58
this isn't, this isn't dissimilar to any other tactic. I mean, at one point everybody spoke from behind a podium and then one day someone stepped out from behind the podium. I don't remember who it was, But I remember teaching my clients in 2004 that you had to step out from behind the podium and you walk the stage freely. To create the relationship.
Carter
21:14
You know, we're using lavalier microphones now. And, you
Carter
21:19
know, then you're sitting on bar stools when you're having your debate because it's so much cooler. And, you know, one day someone didn't wear a tie. And, oh, my God, that was unheard of. They rolled up their sleeves. They
Zain
21:30
They rolled up their sleeves.
Zain
21:31
sleeves. So no jacket.
Zain
21:34
of this is leaning into one direction, isn't it? I'll give you another
Zain
21:37
one, though, Zane. But this casual direction, I think that's
Carter
21:39
another one. No, but it bounces back. It bounces back.
Corey
21:42
flag lapel pin, right? Yes. At a certain point, it just becomes background noise. It no longer symbolizes the things that it originally symbolized, which was this commitment and patriotism and all of that. Now it's just a thing.
Carter
21:55
Yeah, just a thing.
Zain
21:56
thing. And Carter, you're saying this is not a one-way street, though, towards like a more casual relationship. You're saying
Carter
22:02
saying that there is,
Carter
22:03
you know, let me my example now is going to be, you know, Bill Clinton's. I didn't inhale.
Carter
22:08
Right. Bill Clinton's. I didn't inhale in 1991, 1992.
Carter
22:12
What became the standard? Everybody was then asked, did you try marijuana? And people had to give answers
Carter
22:17
answers that they thought wouldn't get them into trouble. And then when they get to Barack Obama, did you have marijuana? And he said, yeah, I did. And I inhaled. And that was kind of the point. And then it stopped.
Carter
22:27
No one gets asked, did you do marijuana? Right. Right. They didn't even ask Trump if he did cocaine, which is ridiculous when you look at his kids. But anyway, this is.
Carter
22:36
This is the challenge, right? Like everything kind of goes around and comes around and then it comes back and suddenly everybody's wearing a tie again. You know, so that, you know, they're looking like Corey Hogan tie tie done up, no jacket arm, you know, sleeves rolled up.
Carter
22:50
There's certain fashions that go through that you see with politics and they will be in for 10 or 15 years and then they will slip out. And I think that where we are right now, politicians
Carter
23:00
politicians feel comfortable dropping the F-bomb every once in a while.
Carter
23:04
Will that continue to escalate until, you know, as you said, the C-word's dropping out? I'm not sure that that's necessarily the case.
Zain
23:12
It's interesting. In some ways, this could be like a parallel conversation on stand-up comedy.
Zain
23:18
How they dress the cursing as a crutch versus like being fresh.
Zain
23:23
It is interesting because it is a performance art in some ways, is it not? like you're creating that same intimate relationship with
Zain
23:29
with an in-group that's on your side. I
Zain
23:32
I find that fascinating in terms of the parallels. McCoy, you were going to jump in here with the point.
Corey
23:36
Well, it's not inconceivable to me there will be a backlash against the coarseness. We think about Donald Trump. It's not just swearing. Donald Trump is not somebody who swears all the time, but he's a particularly coarse individual. And so I
Zain
23:48
I can see maybe
Corey
23:48
maybe a swing back towards a more formal politics in our not too distant future.
Corey
23:55
Maybe politicians will stand behind a lectern again when they're standing on a podium steven for example maybe that is
Zain
24:01
is something no one else over the fourth time he's done it in the in our in our uh 999 exactly
Carter
24:07
exactly what i was talking about i
Corey
24:10
even but we and maybe the the broad trajectory of the english language in politics is more profanity but even within that broad trajectory there are swings back and forth you think about the 70s there were politicians that were you
Corey
24:25
you know talking about out sex with playboy right
Corey
24:27
right and then in the 80s it became very buttoned down and the republicans came back in and you know you had this kind of uh
Corey
24:34
uh you know alex p keaton style of of politician and
Carter
24:37
but it came after it came after gary hart and monkey business right like it you know there there was the kind of there are cultural touch points where someone has gone too far you
Carter
24:47
you know it's one thing to be talking about sex with playboy it's another thing entirely to have pictures of you and your your mistress on your boat called monkey business, um, suddenly showing up, um, on papers across the country. Right.
Carter
25:00
there is, there are times when you go too far and it does cause a backlash too. And someone will probably, you know, Beto O'Rourke might've been really close to causing a backlash with, with motherfuckers. That is a, it's
Carter
25:11
it's a, it's just another level. Um,
Carter
25:13
Um, but he didn't. So who knows what happens next?
Zain
25:16
I want to, can I put a pin on the, what happens next conversation? Because I do want to wrap up there. I want to throw one more thing at you guys in terms of its strategic value. And Carter, maybe I'll start with you. You know, as marketing
Zain
25:29
marketing and communications consultants for the longest time, we collectively together as well as individually have done things around media training, around
Zain
25:38
around these concepts that
Zain
25:40
that we're all familiar with called bridging and flagging, right? right? This concept of how to, when
Zain
25:45
when you're asked a question, pivot to your key message and talking points, how
Zain
25:50
how to tee up an answer in
Zain
25:53
in a way that really ensures that the audience knows that what you're about to say right after this point is going to have even more significant or strategic value.
Zain
26:04
Does cursing play that role, Carter? Does it play the role to say, throw
Zain
26:07
throw a fuck in there And then just watch what I say right after. It's going to have this this sort of strategic sort of penetrating value. So not just the swear, but what it's coupled with is
Zain
26:19
is now kind of that casing. It
Zain
26:21
It kind of is it helps it like kind of push your entire message
Zain
26:25
message through in some way. I want to get your thoughts on that inquiry as well. Well,
Carter
26:28
Well, it's interesting because we all know that he said it. And I think that everybody knows what he said. um
Carter
26:35
know what what what provoked it right and someone coming up and someone taking
Carter
26:38
taking kind of the position that uh you
Carter
26:41
you know school shootings were okay or whatever it was um but i know that he said motherfucker more than i know exactly what provoked it
Carter
26:47
um so you know the the traditional setup for let me i need you zane i need you to hear this point i need you to really
Carter
26:54
really hear this point that the traditional setup for
Carter
26:57
for getting someone to pay attention actually
Carter
26:59
actually does work It
Carter
27:02
the repetition pieces that we use or the other, you
Carter
27:05
you know, the repetition that we use or whatever pieces that we use to make sure that people hear
Zain
27:09
hear that strategic silence or even coaching clients or politicians to take a breath, even extend it longer than it's comfortable and
Zain
27:16
and then say their thing to create that sense of tension
Zain
27:19
tension or even drama in some ways. Right.
Carter
27:22
Right. Because that's the theater of politics. Right. We understand, you know, you talked about theater in
Carter
27:27
in stand up comedy and how it ebbs and flows around different ideas. It is the theater of politics. And that's one of the reasons I've been good at it is because I actually understand theater.
Carter
27:37
Right. So it is a theatrical medium in politics. politics but when
Carter
27:43
when you say motherfucker sometimes all the people are going to hear is motherfucker
Carter
27:48
right um if you drop your pants they're going to pay attention to you but all they're going to remember is how small your weenie is that's
Carter
27:55
that's uh it's life to listen that's a good lesson to take home certainly
Corey
27:58
certainly a problem at least one of us on this podcast would have don't
Corey
28:01
don't talk about zane
Carter
28:02
zane like that she's
Corey
28:03
she's right here i know cory
Zain
28:06
cory you wanted to jump it out i did
Corey
28:07
did because i think that the the flagging point is a good one zane and maybe even more than people realize when they're deploying it like this it's attention grabbing in the moment you're
Corey
28:17
shit he just said shit
Corey
28:19
it's time to listen to this right but there is also some uh physiology at play here excitement fear titillation um
Corey
28:27
um strong emotions like this they
Corey
28:30
they increase endorphins and endorphins increase memory and retention uh so often these are deployed in speeches when you think about really really great speeches. When
Corey
28:38
When you talk about that next level stuff, you know, the JFK style speeches that really get people fired up and you sort of remember these big taglines.
Corey
28:46
One of the things that we talk about when we're working with people on speech writing, you know, obviously not to the we
Corey
28:53
aspire for JFK style, we choose to go to the moon speeches.
Corey
28:56
reality is we rarely get there.
Corey
29:00
the provoking of somebody like having them like react in a way and think like, oh, shit, did they just say that that's
Corey
29:07
a that's a speech writer's tactic for this very reason it's the kind of thing that really draws you in and as makes you more likely to remember this thing as it goes on here and
Corey
29:15
and you know i want to dwell on the jfk speech for a minute here because it does speak to some of the other psychology that's here think about the speech we choose to go to the moon people remember that speech right i
Corey
29:26
mean ultimately that was a speech that was about a budget ask it was about asking for billions of dollars for rocketry but he wrapped it in this emotional emotional inspirational language and
Corey
29:34
and he he used these shocking moments to grab people's attention and
Corey
29:39
in much smaller ways this is what we're encouraging politicians to do all the time as communications consultants and as political strategists it's
Corey
29:49
it's probably more effective i think than even it's intended to be when it's used as a flag part
Zain
29:55
part of you have your hand i'm going to jump in on this and i'll go to our and i just think of
Carter
29:58
of other politicians that have kind of views like ronald reagan uh his use of rhetoric and even the way that he like i think of moments when he and uh nancy
Carter
30:07
nancy reagan were entertaining the mulroonies right brian and mila mulrooney there'd be dancing there'd be singing there'd be like it was a it
Carter
30:15
it was theater and um
Carter
30:17
they made us feel something it wasn't necessarily the same the same rhetorical tools and techniques of jfk but we we did feel stuff yeah
Zain
30:27
yeah you know i i think that's that's really fascinating and i also also find it fascinating that you feel like this is not a one-way street that there is we're like seeing a bit of like recoil uh to that and i guess that kind of brings me to my my final point carter which is like what are we doing going forward like
Zain
30:41
like if you were to advise let's just actually do it together like i'll have you guys on the same team like
Zain
30:46
like a candidate do
Zain
30:48
do we have to give them like a composite like are they new they're trying to penetrate perhaps like what what what What what would your rules be around this or what would your rules be for political figures around this? Because I want to go back to the mayor of Peterborough, because
Zain
31:04
because when interviewed of
Zain
31:06
of following this tweet, Mayor Terry, and she said, I'm
Zain
31:09
I'm a big fan of profanity and I would do it all over again.
Carter
31:14
But also keep in mind, she's not running in this year's election. She's
Zain
31:17
She's not running. And that's absolutely
Carter
31:19
he has zero fucks left to give but but
Zain
31:24
but i but it's also interesting because you have someone like better work who is doing who is running who is trying to you know get the governor's chair so yeah you can say that she has zero fucks to give i suspect that there's been a bit of a popularity boost for her uh with with all the coverage and what's happened here so what are your rules here because is
Zain
31:41
is it is it you know you do it when you got no fucks to give you say fuck fuck when you got no fucks to give? Or
Zain
31:47
Or do you say fuck when you have many fucks to give and you actually want and
Zain
31:51
and are trying to either hold on to office, penetrate through a moment? Give me a set of ground rules here. Let's help the future leaders of tomorrow effectively insert profanity into their vocabulary, Carter.
Carter
32:06
they do it? I think the number one thing is, do you want to have attention?
Carter
32:09
Is this something you want to get attention for? And
Carter
32:12
And do you want that attention to to be targeted at you. And
Carter
32:15
And so if the answer to those things is yes, like we just did an announcement
Carter
32:18
announcement here in Surrey this week that we're going to end the ban on cannabis stores in Surrey.
Carter
32:25
Why did we do that?
Carter
32:27
Because it's controversial. It is the exact same tool. We are using controversy to get attention. And
Carter
32:33
And that controversy can be as simple or as complex as I'm
Carter
32:37
bringing in a brand brand new policy or i'm saying motherfucker to a uh you
Carter
32:45
you know an asshole um this
Carter
32:48
this particular case like if i was doing it and if i was talking to someone and they had super strong opinions and they really wanted to say it and
Carter
32:55
and it divided the in-group out-group by like 80 20 then
Carter
32:59
then i'd say go for it go
Carter
33:01
go for it but don't do it if you're just going to call pierre polyev a little fucker right
Carter
33:05
right If you're just going to call Pierre Polyev a little fucker, then don't do it.
Carter
33:10
Back away from it, because it shouldn't be used to
Carter
33:13
target an individual. It should be used to target a group, and it should be bigger
Carter
33:18
bigger than partisanship. It needs to be much
Carter
33:21
much bigger than that. I think that
Carter
33:24
that that is the most successful use of it that we've seen so far.
Zain
33:28
In-group, out-group, bigger than partisanship. Those are a couple of rules added to the board.
Zain
33:32
Corey, do you agree with them? Do you want to tweak them? You don't. oh interesting not at all yeah
Corey
33:36
yeah i think this notion of he's
Zain
33:38
he's now walked away by the way
Corey
33:39
way he's just left he's just left okay this notion of bigger than partisanship is nonsense and i i
Corey
33:45
don't even know what he's talking about and i don't even want to give him more time to talk about it but i think we're missing an important one here okay
Corey
33:53
swore beto o'rourke is losing by eight points he is trying to be governor but he is trying and trying to penetrate yeah
Corey
34:00
yeah would he he have done that if he was the front runner i
Carter
34:04
don't think he would have thank
Zain
34:06
don't yeah he and you know it's interesting that's
Zain
34:12
what i do here this is what i do wouldn't
Carter
34:14
wouldn't have needed the attention wouldn't
Zain
34:16
yeah you you think you think but so he still considers a risk though right like that's what we're ultimately saying that
Zain
34:21
that if he was up ahead by eight points right let's just flip it cory the the you would have essentially said i'm
Zain
34:27
i'm assuming your answer would also be no he wouldn't have done it right well
Corey
34:31
let's think about it in terms of risk and not swearing right he didn't know how people were going to react he may have thought they'd react positively but he didn't know politicians try
Corey
34:40
to change the script when they're behind right
Corey
34:42
right if the script is working for them they don't have a reason to change the script but they're going to swear more they're going to bring out more outrageous policies they're going to do these things when they're trying to shake up the status quo as it exists right now and so So I guess the other thing I would say is we've
Corey
35:00
we've got a mayor who's not running again, who
Corey
35:02
who may just be wearing it on her sleeve. And we've got a politician in Beto O'Rourke who is losing.
Corey
35:11
And when you think about the example Stephen gave about don't be a Nenshi now, and like, I don't even want to call them what they are. That was a mayor who was popular and winning and stuck to the script.
Corey
35:20
That's an important part of this entire equation here, right? Right.
Corey
35:24
There's there's not a lot of reason to take these swings if you're the person.
Zain
35:31
Carter, what do you think of that? I want to get your react to that before you kind of move it on.
Carter
35:35
Yeah, I think you don't take the swing if you're not behind. I mean, you don't take the risk. Right. You don't need if you're if you're winning. You know, why would you take the risk? This is one of the things we've talked about a number of times. What's the risk reward?
Carter
35:48
Beto is not going going to drop he
Carter
35:50
may pick up some um
Carter
35:53
maybe maybe the in-group out-group will work for him maybe it won't i don't know i think it was a pretty good
Carter
35:58
good play but if you look at the numbers he's seen you know he's recently dropped i'm not sure there's a correlation but i'm
Carter
36:04
i'm not sure what the correlation
Zain
36:06
so then so then okay reconcile this
Zain
36:08
this for me carter and
Zain
36:10
and actually if you don't mind let's just go back to the example you gave us right now on the show with
Zain
36:16
with your candidate and sorry if you don't mind i was talking about no that's fine so
Zain
36:19
so you said you were using something that's similar to swearing which is that casing of controversy right
Zain
36:25
right to garner attention is that an acknowledgement of you saying you're behind nope
Carter
36:30
nope it's not it's not necessarily that like um but basically i love
Carter
36:36
i don't need to pick
Zain
36:38
pick on your campaign that is not my intent that's not my but i want to try to be clear on this because there's a strategy question here i
Carter
36:43
i could light off a uh a series of fire firecrackers in the middle of city hall right now, no one will give a fuck.
Carter
36:48
It is, it is 35 degrees in Surrey and people are hot and they are tired and they are cranky.
Carter
36:55
Um, so getting attention right now is super duper hard.
Carter
36:58
It just is. And it always is in August. And I wanted to get attention that
Carter
37:02
that had nothing to do with our placement. It just had to do with, you
Carter
37:06
I didn't think that we were going to get attention just by coming up with a policy on recreational facilities. celebrities you
Carter
37:11
know we needed to do something that had a little bit more sex appeal and
Carter
37:15
and that's all it was and
Zain
37:16
and so okay that's interesting i'm trying to reconcile it but in a
Carter
37:20
a way i mean you know what it's like sending a policy i do
Carter
37:24
i mean how many policy pieces have we put out like nenshi's policy pieces in 2010 we put out 14 policy pieces we got coverage on one one
Carter
37:33
right and so i wanted to get coverage on a policy in a bunch of
Carter
37:36
right so rather than waiting until the end until i could figure out what we would be sexy i just put one out right now that's sexy
Zain
37:43
sexy would you have ever resorted let's me take you back to another example you let's say jyoti gandek here
Zain
37:48
here in calgary would you have ever if you weren't getting the traction that your your strategy of of early blitzing with lawn signs etc would you have gotten her to performatively do something in that neighborhood to try to penetrate like i'm curious right because you're missing
Carter
38:01
missing you you missed what the controversy was the
Carter
38:05
the controversy was doing the campaign at that time right
Carter
38:08
we got more articles about doing the campaign were we breaking the bylaws why would someone campaign this or we got more attention from doing that campaign and the commentary about that campaign than we did from the actual campaign that we did in may and june it
Carter
38:22
it was the it was the tactic very meta it's good point right the tactic was to get the attention do we get the attention from the activity or does you know do you get the right from the attention from the reaction so so
Zain
38:33
so So, so the question here then is that, that swearing and generating controversy can be the same, but you see the risk reward ratio here of swearing as, as, as someone, you would not do it if you feel like you're in a position to lead or win. Like I'm trying, I'm trying to get
Carter
38:49
I'm trying to get it right. Listen, you're just making it, you're making too simple a rule. If
Corey
38:53
If you're behind, you are going to take bigger risks. That does not mean if you're in front, you
Corey
38:58
you do not take risks, right? Right. There is still the standard risk reward calculation.
Corey
39:03
But you are just
Corey
39:05
just it's one of those like if A then B, B, therefore A things. It doesn't mean that a politician is behind simply because they take a risk.
Carter
39:14
Well, and sometimes you're taking a risk like we took some risks to go after Davison when he came in.
Carter
39:19
We were way ahead of Davison at that point, but we still wanted to put our foot on his on his neck and not allow him to get up off the floor. war. That's politics. Sometimes you have to weigh out the risk with the opportunity. A two-person race is easier to win than a three-person race.
Zain
39:38
I get it. I understand it. And I understand you're not playing to protect the lead if you're up in front. I'm just trying to figure out where we think swearing kind of fits in that, at least in some sort of mold. But I appreciate that. Yeah. Let's finish this off, Corey.
Corey
39:52
Corey. There are going to be different audiences for different political parties, but
Corey
39:56
swearing spans political boundaries, right? There's fuck Trudeau stickers. There are left-wing politicians who will be swearing. There's
Zain
40:05
There's fuck Jason Kenney mugs that one could have bought. Of course there are. Right. And
Corey
40:09
And so my point would be it is a tactic that's available to both sides of the spectrum.
Corey
40:14
And that's not true of a lot of other tactics that are there or policies, certainly, that are there. So maybe when we see it and we observe it and we can make commentary on it in this way, there's
Corey
40:27
there's the universality to it. And the difference, I think, between it versus any other tactic is it is a tactic that's available to anybody.
Corey
40:34
Male, female, conservative, liberal.
Corey
40:36
is a way to shock and to bring attention and it gets us more into the
Corey
40:41
the social psychology of politics and less about triangulation which is often what we're talking about when we're talking about politics so
Corey
40:48
it's different you know it's not the same as just bringing out a controversial policy but it is fundamentally rooted in the same basic idea which is you are trying to do things to get people to pay attention or get them to like you
Zain
41:01
we're going to leave that segment there moving on to our final segment our over under and our lightning round stephen carter it
Zain
41:07
it is a segment that we do for you and and i i really have an easy one for you which is how the hell uh
Zain
41:13
uh stephen carter to you first how the hell did doug ford refrain from swearing when he swallowed a bee stephen carter how does one refrain from saying any of
Zain
41:24
of the well didn't he
Carter
41:25
he drop a blasphemy didn't he dry up uh christ or something in there holy christ or something doesn't
Carter
41:33
doesn't it does it to the christians it does same and uh cory's really upset um but you know the the truth is that i mean that
Carter
41:42
that was a moment uh the video was fantastic and i think that the way he uh um
Carter
41:47
um the way he would
Zain
41:48
would have known he swallowed a bee if he didn't tell us yeah
Zain
41:52
no i don't think i don't know i do i
Corey
41:54
i think it would be like i don't think he he would have you remember the debate footage of like uh the fly walking across across his forehead and all of that of course i think it would have in a funny way been worse for him if if
Carter
42:05
if he had a bee
Corey
42:06
had flown into his mouth and he had just proceeded going on people would be like what the fuck just happened did he swallow a bee but
Corey
42:13
but instead he got to be the guy who said that where he's like christ i just swallowed a bee like yeah and and and he sort of owned it and he took it back and I don't know, I give him a full marks for
Zain
42:24
for that. I feel
Zain
42:24
feel like his folksy
Zain
42:25
folksy demeanor and then he'd be like, well, I know, he'd point it at someone and he's like, I know this person's gonna love that or some shit like that. Let me
Corey
42:31
me tell you something. Imagine Doug Ford in the situation Jason Kenney was where the gas thing wouldn't come out. That's a good point. He
Zain
42:39
He would have dealt with
Corey
42:40
with it very differently. He would have said, what the hell? This gas thing's not coming out. That's fucking crazy. Christ. But it would have changed that event entirely. There is power in making yourself the fool rather than someone else
Zain
42:53
else making you the fool. Especially if self-deprecation is part of your repertoire. Or it seems like it could be. Guys, can
Carter
43:00
can we not describe my style on this podcast quite so blatantly? I mean, we also
Carter
43:05
also bully you aggressively.
Carter
43:06
So there's also that. Pretty hurtful.
Zain
43:09
Corey, next question. We're over under in our lightning round. This is not phrased how we typically do. do a politician that you know personally or know reputationally who's sworn the
Zain
43:21
the least who is the least
Zain
43:23
least we're going with least with you cory i'll go at least with you carter the least would not you couldn't even get them even in a casual hangout in private you
Zain
43:31
you guys are all like dropping f-bombs talking about how shitty that day was at the doors they they would be buttoned up they would not say anything everything was tightly scripted not even tightly scripted but they just they could be a good hang but they just wouldn't drop one of the words
Corey
43:47
well for me it's almost certainly david swan i can't actually recall him swearing when
Carter
43:52
when david do you remember when david swan's twitter account oh
Corey
43:55
oh that's part of what made it so crazy so for our listeners i don't remember this at all either david
Corey
44:01
david swan his twitter account there was a snowstorm in like april or may in edmonton and there was a meter of snow almost i'm probably you know it's probably probably getting taller the longer i think
Carter
44:13
think about this story 14 feet deep tons of drifts yeah like
Zain
44:17
like job in the rest of development the guy with a nine thousand dollar suit yeah come on but
Zain
44:22
but all of a
Corey
44:22
a sudden all of a sudden um there
Corey
44:26
there was a uh a
Corey
44:28
a tweet from david swan it said it was a picture of outside in edmonton it's like oh
Corey
44:34
uh you know may in edmonton fml right right fuck
Corey
44:41
was this the internet went nuts the internet loved it oh
Carter
44:45
oh yeah i was like this guy's a real human being he gets us he understands who we are but
Corey
44:50
but of course it was actually his ea should
Carter
44:53
should we just own that
Corey
44:54
who i will not name and shame here you're
Corey
44:57
no i won't but anyways he had i think he was just on the wrong twitter account and so it went out and uh i recall it because i i worked for the liberals at the time and what i really wanted david's well i think maybe he even did that i don't know if he did was to say like oh my assistant tweeted and everybody thought i was cool for a minute fml you know like i thought that was that's pretty fun that would have been great
Carter
45:21
great too that would have been great that was it just wasn't in his character yeah
Carter
45:25
david did not have it in him steven
Zain
45:27
steven carter uh politician you know know worked with have associated with who has sworn uh
Zain
45:32
the least you know what questions coming up after this but the least
Carter
45:39
i don't think he swore very often at all uh he he was pretty much the same behind the scenes as he was in front of the same you know he didn't swear very much carter
Zain
45:47
carter the politician that you've worked with associated no that's sworn the most okay
Carter
45:53
okay so you need to clarify for me is this someone i've worked for or is this someone that i know knows where's like a trucker we've
Zain
46:01
we've got time go with both uh
Zain
46:03
work for let's go to work for let's work for then we'll i think it's a tie i don't have a moment of
Corey
46:08
of hesitation on this answer but i
Zain
46:10
i think it's a
Zain
46:12
carter's got a tie cory's just like fucking itching to go i kind of
Corey
46:15
almost want to try to say it at the same time you know
Zain
46:18
know what okay all
Corey
46:19
three of us are gonna say
Corey
46:19
say it at the same time because i know you zane may have the same answer okay okay one one Wait, just last name, because we're going to do it fast, right? One,
Zain
46:33
Oh, hair is better. Well,
Zain
46:35
the Notley thing is interesting, because I will tell you, back in the 2019 campaign, we did a little documentary about her, and her daughter literally is like, my mom swears like a sailor. The next clip was her just saying the F word that we bleeped out, which is like totally, and that was like one of our favorite things that we produced. So I forgot
Zain
46:52
forgot about that for a
Zain
46:53
a second. I didn't work
Carter
46:53
work for Rachel, though. No, I
Carter
46:55
I haven't. That's why I was asking it, because I know that Rachel swears a lot. Was that your person
Zain
47:01
person reputationally? Was that your answer?
Carter
47:06
Drew Farrell also swears like a trucker. And it's pretty funny. And so does Gondek. Gondek is
Corey
47:12
is a good answer. Here is a good answer. Kent is a fellow who every like you,
Corey
47:18
you, he'd get five fucks a sentence. He'd be like, oh, that fucking thing that fucking fucked up the fuck. and then anyways
Corey
47:24
anyways take care of yourself i'll see you later yeah
Corey
47:27
he'd bomb out of there way
Carter
47:28
way to go fucking carter oh
Carter
47:30
oh it's fucking carter carter fuck what
Carter
47:33
the fuck are you doing here carter
Zain
47:37
good i'm glad you got it out of your system um final
Zain
47:40
final question cory hogan swearing in politics publicly overrated
Corey
47:46
overrated you know it's just like like anything else it's a tactic it can be deployed i actually think its power is more
Corey
47:52
part of we just talked about david swan and that tweet that
Corey
47:55
that tweet wouldn't have meant anything coming from a politician that swears a lot part of it was because it was so out of character it's when you break the mold when you do something different that you draw attention to these things and
Corey
48:05
and if you do it all the time there's
Corey
48:06
there's no calibration and and to be able to be a guy or a gal who
Corey
48:11
who doesn't say it a lot and
Corey
48:12
and then just drops like the most well-placed what
Corey
48:16
what the fuck are you on about in a debate or yeah
Corey
48:19
yeah i don't think so motherfucker or something like that that's
Corey
48:23
there's some power there but there's not power in being someone who just perpetually swears in public because it it loses its ability
Zain
48:31
so like this podcast so like so like this podcast yeah we've we've we've we've lost all power stephen carter overrated underrating swearing publicly in politics in
Carter
48:40
in politics it's yes sir it's
Carter
48:42
it's probably overrated good
Zain
48:45
good well you know what But people
Zain
48:46
people have already listened to 49 minutes of it. So it sucks to be them as
Zain
48:50
as we discuss an overrated topic for
Zain
48:52
for 49 minutes. But we're going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 999.99999999 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Belcher. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we'll see you.