Transcript
Zain
0:01
This is a strategist episode 999.999. My name is Zain Velji with me as always, Corey
Zain
0:08
Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. What's up, guys?
Zain
0:11
We are, of course, building the tension, as they say in the biz, Carter. This is called building the tension to episode 999
Zain
0:23
is what we are building to, Carter. Carter, that is going to be a tremendous episode where we ultimately build attention to
Zain
0:28
episode, say it with me, Carter.
Zain
0:34
.9999. I did that wrong.
Zain
0:37
you new? What's going on?
Carter
0:40
I am new. I am a little slower than the other kids, but I'll tell you something.
Carter
0:45
This is the level that Formula One times two, three
Carter
0:47
three decimal points, right? The thousandth of a second. And that's how sharp we are. we are
Zain
0:54
Corey, you are, of course, not the Lewis Hamilton of this podcast. And the reason I say that is because that's the only F1 racer that I know. I
Zain
1:03
of the other ones.
Carter
1:05
Corey is, in fact, the Lewis Hamilton of our podcast. He is potentially the most talented, but also the most whiny. So we have both of those elements in that. So I
Carter
1:15
I like to think of myself as as the Nicholas Latifi of the podcast. Good old Canadian, comes in 20th out of 20 every time.
Zain
1:24
Corey, how do we walk into a sports thing where Carter has more knowledge about it than us? It's really upsetting to me. What the fuck did I just do? I was going to say, you
Corey
1:31
you know, I thought the only two racers were Ford and Ferrari from that movie, Ford v. Ferrari. First of
Carter
1:37
of all, that was the 24 hours of Le Mans. I couldn't be more upset with you.
Corey
1:42
How many hours of lemons does anybody need? Oh my
Carter
1:47
is what happens when life gives you U2. I get lemons out of Le Mans.
Zain
1:52
This was an unforced error on my part. I apologize. That's pretty good, Carter.
Corey
1:59
50-year-old white guy thing I've ever heard anybody say.
Zain
2:02
It's a low bar, which is why I said pretty good. It's a low bar for Stephen Carter. Let
Carter
2:06
Let me tell you, I feel pretty good about being 50 instead of 53. This is good. It's taken a few years off.
Zain
2:11
Thank you. That is correct, Carter. I am wearing a plaid shirt. It's because I've been outside camping for the Patrick Brown meet and greet barbecue. It is at the Don Hartsman Sportsplex. Stephen Carter, we do not know if he's going to show, which brings me to my first segment. Our first segment, will he or won't he show
Zain
2:28
show up to the Don Hartsman Sportsplex in Northeast Calgary? Carter, the
Zain
2:32
the Patrick Brown saga has continued. Of course, we were the first. We were the first Canadian political podcast to provide people with the fresh, fresh Patrick Brown content. I mean, first and best. I mean, that's what we do. We are like the Lewis Hamilton of F1 Racing. That's my limits.
Zain
2:49
long has it been since we recorded? Because I'm thinking about that. It's been two days. It seems like eight days, but it's been, what, a couple of days since we recorded that last episode. I want to get your perhaps adapted, perhaps updated take on the situation. Then we'll get into some of the strategic choices Patrick
Zain
3:05
Patrick Brown has made, that Pierre Polyavris has made, that the Conservative Party has made and did not make. So there's a lot of of things to chew on. But Carter, first, your initial updated thoughts on the Patrick Brown saga, of course, bringing people up to speed of him being officially disqualified from the conservative leadership race per that late night email by Ian Brody a couple
Carter
3:25
Yeah, I mean, there's been a number of things that have happened. I was thinking originally there were only two things that have happened. But of course, it's been a lot more than that.
Carter
3:33
The first thing, of course, was Patrick Brown's strong defense, which we recommended on this podcast that he come out with a strong defense and he did a media blitz i don't think there was a media show that he could have been on that he wasn't on in the immediate aftermath of him sending out the statement um
Carter
3:50
um like he was on everything uh and then a little bit later um of course the the conservatives continued to put out more information and today there was uh what i would call two bombshells uh the first bombshell being um
Carter
4:03
the the whistleblower has has actually been publicly identified. I believe she came forward on
Carter
4:08
on her own accord publicly and told her story now to the media. There's some holes in her story that I'd still like to see kind of filled in, but it does look like it's building a new grave for Mr. Brown. And then, of course, the second piece, which was the leak out of the Conservative
Carter
4:27
Conservative Party that says that it
Carter
4:29
it was recommended that they not even accept Patrick Brown as a candidate, which, of course, the LEOC, you know, the leadership election organizing committee, then walked away and didn't have a comment on. I'm quite certain that they were the ones who leaked it, but nonetheless, they didn't want to have an actual comment on it. So it looks like, you
Carter
4:49
know, what looked like a fairly poorly thrown together communication strategy from the Conservatives, they are throwing everything they've got at it a couple of days later.
Zain
4:59
Leok, more like Leakok, am I right? Nailed it. Drum
Zain
5:02
where's the soundboard? Welcome to 50-year
Carter
5:04
-year-old white man, Zane.
Zain
5:09
Corey, give me your updated thoughts. It's been, like I said, it seems like it's been a week. It hasn't. Your updated thoughts on what you've seen thus far, and then we'll get into some of the strategy
Zain
5:17
strategy questions. Carter's mentioned a few of them. I want to dissect a few others. Lay
Zain
5:21
Lay it on me, Corey. Updated thoughts?
Corey
5:23
Well, look, we're still deep in the fog of this thing, and that's coming through even these revelations, which are supposed to be resolving things. things so it
Zain
5:33
somewhat of her own accord that the leaker's name uh
Corey
5:35
uh you know the leaker story came forward the leaker's name came out so there does seem to be some uh some
Corey
5:41
some examples here of people putting information into public domain to try to manage the story in some way shape or form or maybe not even manage but they
Corey
5:48
they are propelling it uh we also of course had the as carter mentioned the the
Corey
5:53
the leak that some people didn't even want patrick brown accepted in the first place and so So I
Corey
5:58
don't really know what to make of this because it
Corey
6:02
it is an awful lot that's going back and forth. It does seem like there's at least a couple of people with axes to grind here.
Corey
6:09
One thing that I find incredibly interesting
Corey
6:11
interesting is that we managed to go all
Corey
6:14
all this time without knowing that there was some question as to whether to approve Patrick Brown in the first place.
Corey
6:20
And now we've got both that and we've got the leakers information coming forward. So that
Corey
6:25
that to me suggests that it's not just
Corey
6:27
just loose lips, but perhaps a somewhat concerted effort to put some information out here to say, this
Corey
6:32
this is a bad hombre. You
Corey
6:34
know, there were some bad things going on in that campaign. We were leery from the start, so he was always on a short leash. And whether
Corey
6:40
whether that is a concerted effort of the Conservative Party or one of its apparatuses, or somebody who
Corey
6:46
who is connected enough, perhaps is sympathetic to one of the different campaigns, or was always a little leery of Patrick Brown, I don't know. We don't have enough information. But certainly, it
Corey
6:57
does seem like there's access being ground around here.
Corey
7:01
other thing that i find very interesting is that while all of this immolation is going on um well
Corey
7:07
well i find two things interesting one of them i find more incompetent than just outright interesting one is that the liberals are trying to jump in on this and say for
Zain
7:14
for shame we should get people to investigate this as though the liberals are sitting from the highest ethical perch
Corey
7:18
perch uh but the second one is the polyev campaign is dealing with in tandem situation about him marching with
Zain
7:27
with top and some of the conversations around convoy
Corey
7:31
polyev going big on his statement that he gave originally just to a reporter and then he put out forward and i'm not trying to jump ahead of you here but like
Corey
7:39
like is he trying to change the channel is he trying to say look over here let's stop talking about the brown thing or is this just like the
Corey
7:46
the craziest incompetence ever because it feels like the conservative party scandal around
Corey
7:50
around brown would would be more than enough to consume the oxygen if you just laid low on
Corey
7:55
on the convoy stuff for a day or two.
Zain
7:57
It's good you mentioned that, Corey, because, you know, even over the course of the last couple of days, there's been many strategic
Zain
8:03
strategic choices made by many different parties involved in this situation. And I want to kind of, despite the fact, Carter, that Corey's right, we're still in the fog of it. Is it fair to talk about a few of them? I think it is. I think it's fair to talk about a few of those choices. And Carter, maybe I'll start with you. Like the first choice you you talked about. Let's go with Patrick Brown. Let's go with the choice of the aggressive
Zain
8:24
media blitz. First of all, let's contrast this with the Patrick Brown that we'd seen during the campaign.
Zain
8:30
We didn't see Patrick Brown during the campaign, right? So we never saw this guy, and he did more media in 24 hours than he'd done in the entire campaign.
Zain
8:40
Talk to me about that strategic choice. Was it the right choice? What would have made it better? Let's use that as our framework as we talk about this.
Carter
8:46
Yeah, I mean, we recommended it. So obviously, it was the right choice because both Corey and I agreed, which never happened. But it was the only choice. If he wanted to come back into the race or if he also mentioned that he was hiring Marie, what's her last name? Yeah,
Carter
9:07
don't know how to interpret that. It's a joke, everybody.
Carter
9:09
It's a terrible joke.
Carter
9:10
Anyways, what we have is... Explain
Carter
9:15
got time. Trust me,
Zain
9:16
me, we've got time. No,
Carter
9:18
needed to have an aggressive time. He needed to have an aggressive pushback because if he didn't have an aggressive pushback, he was going to be dead and he still may be dead. But the aggressiveness was his only choice. And I think that it was universally agreed to that.
Carter
9:34
He did a very good job in that media. The media that came like the opportunity that is him actually getting in front of it. It begs the question, was he not in front of the media because he didn't want to be in the media or just that he wasn't able to produce a compelling story? Because now
Carter
9:47
now that there's a compelling story, he did a good job of getting in front of the media, hiring the lawyer, bringing in the people that needed to be brought in to make this look like he was going to fight it. The
Carter
9:56
The only thing he seems to have done wrong is the actual crime.
Zain
10:03
But that's all. That's all. You can cover that. Good comms can take care of that. Right, Corey? Isn't that a comms job? We just got to comms our way out of this. Yeah. We got to comms this.
Zain
10:14
Corey, can you comms this for us?
Zain
10:17
Media Blitz, what do you make of the choice? What could have made it better?
Corey
10:20
Well, I agree with what Carter said. It was the only course of action available if you want to stay in this thing and fight this thing. You've got to go nuclear. You've got to start throwing haymakers. You've got to get out
Corey
10:31
out there in a big way. And he certainly did that.
Corey
10:35
Of course, we are seeing perhaps what the consequence of that is, which is that somebody said, oh, you want to play this game And then he started having additional information leaked about
Corey
10:46
should have been in the race in the first place. The nature of the allegations, the fact that it was, you know, somebody, the call was coming from inside the house. It was someone working for his campaign who
Corey
10:56
who brought these things forward.
Corey
10:58
And yeah, we don't know a lot. And we haven't seen the evidence. We may never see the evidence. um and in
Corey
11:05
in in a funny way you
Corey
11:07
know i i don't know how deep i want to go into the weeds on this one here but the basic accusation hinges
Corey
11:13
hinges on this person working for the brown campaign salary paid by a corporation
Corey
11:18
but the smoking gun is that her expenses had not been paid by the campaign and she said where is my expenses
Zain
11:25
expenses to patrick brown
Corey
11:26
himself apparently via text and
Zain
11:28
and then the expenses were
Corey
11:30
by the corporation so that
Corey
11:33
that can actually all still be true and patrick brown not be guilty of what's being accused of so yeah
Corey
11:37
like i'm not saying that that's likely again but it's circumstantial at best because
Corey
11:42
because what could have happened is patrick brown could have said what
Corey
11:46
what the hell how come her expenses are not paid to somebody within his campaign who then picked
Zain
11:50
picked up the phone and called the corporation and said can you cover this doesn't
Corey
11:54
doesn't speak well of his campaign still, but
Corey
11:56
but it's not necessarily what's being told.
Zain
11:59
jump in on this. Let's spend time on this actually, because this is important and we can play my little game of choices, but let's talk about what could have happened here. Carter, jump in.
Carter
12:08
One more alternative. The
Carter
12:10
The campaign says to her,
Carter
12:11
you know, don't go to Patrick anymore, but this is going to take us some time to clear up your expenses. These expenses weren't approved in advance. They weren't done the proper way. You
Carter
12:20
You need to come through the campaign to make sure that everything is signed off. You don't have pre-approval. It's
Carter
12:24
It's going to take us at least three months to pay these off.
Carter
12:27
She then goes to her employer and says, I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm out on all of these expenses.
Carter
12:31
And her employer says, you know what?
Carter
12:33
I got you into this. I've asked you to do this volunteer work for me. I'll cover your expenses from now until such time as that's covered off by the Patrick Brown campaign.
Carter
12:43
All of this could happen and not be an illegality on behalf of the Patrick Brown campaign.
Carter
12:48
There could be a question of whether or not the corporation is committed in something that's illegal.
Carter
12:51
But the corporation doing something illegal does not necessarily mean the Patrick Brown campaign has done something illegal.
Carter
13:00
That's why I didn't like this woman's statement because it had
Carter
13:03
had holes. It had holes. Was she just the consultant? And then she was doing consulting work for the corporation and then she was volunteering on the side? Or was the consulting work working for the Patrick Brown campaign? There were holes in her story that i went you could drive a pickup truck through that in a court of law or in an actual you
Carter
13:23
you know like elections canada elections alberta elections british columbia all of them when they investigate things they investigate you
Carter
13:31
you know there's a reason why it takes you know two
Carter
13:34
two years to to charge someone for election finance laws there's many ways that you can break the laws inadvertently or you know that
Carter
13:43
that that it's not necessarily as clear cut which is one of the reasons why taking the drastic action of disqualifying the candidate, keeping in mind, Jason Kenney clearly broke many rules in his leadership act, you know, but no one kicked him out. You know, there are allegations that floated around Kevin Falcon. No one kicked him out. The only person who got kicked out has been Patrick Brown.
Zain
14:04
I'm going to keep that tone alive, Carter, and remind me of it, because this kind of goes back to Patrick Brown, the fix is in. But Corey, I want you to get your response to what Carter's saying here around hypothetical
Zain
14:14
hypothetical scenarios, but not necessarily improbable scenarios that could also be
Zain
14:19
be part of the fact based. Yeah,
Corey
14:21
Yeah, look, I still deem them somewhat improbable. I still think the most likely thing here is exactly what's being accused. I don't have any more evidence of that than anybody else out there.
Corey
14:33
It's just balance of probability stuff here based on what's in front of us. But I agree with Stephen that when I read the statement, I
Corey
14:41
I had a similar sense of what's
Corey
14:43
what's not being said here or the gaps in the story are perhaps as interesting to me as what is in front of us. And so I definitely don't think we have the full story at this point.
Corey
14:52
And there is certainly something to that.
Corey
14:55
What I want to jump on, though, is his point about no
Corey
14:58
no one kicked these other people out in these other circumstances. And you know what? I don't want to get into whether you think something happened or didn't happen with Kenny
Corey
15:05
Kenny or Falcon or any of that. I
Corey
15:07
I want to get to the basic principle around elections and something else Stephen said, which is it's hard to prove intent.
Corey
15:13
It is hard to prove intent. And in particular, in election law, that
Corey
15:18
that matters a lot because being ignorant of it is generally perceived as a bit of a defense here. And when election commissioners and chief electoral officers are faced with somebody outright
Corey
15:30
outright breaking election laws, even even things like putting stuff in mailboxes, that's the wrong poll and all of that. Yeah,
Corey
15:38
The remedy is always like the smallest remedy possible. It's unless these actions would have changed the outcome of the election, we're not going to call a new election. We're
Corey
15:48
We're not going to kick
Corey
15:49
kick a candidate out by and large. And
Corey
15:52
so one of the things that seems to me,
Corey
15:56
you know, it's, it's tricky because I'm not saying that it's not important that these laws be followed far from it. I think it's very important, but
Corey
16:02
but certainly before all of the facts are in before there's actually been an investigation, it's
Corey
16:07
it's hard not to feel like the response is a little disproportionate, doesn't
Corey
16:11
doesn't it? I mean, we, we, again, we don't have all of the facts, but with what we do have right now, it
Corey
16:15
it feels a little disproportionate. It
Carter
16:18
It feels a lot disproportionate. It's not a little disproportionate. And are you comparing that
Zain
16:22
that to previous races and like previous, not previous Conservative Party of Canada, but to Corey's point, you
Zain
16:29
you know, previous races we may have seen across the board, that this is kind of
Carter
16:35
Allegations are made in every election campaign.
Carter
16:38
Traditionally, they're ignored or referred, right? So you refer them to the proper governing body. The
Carter
16:43
party is in its own regard, its own governing body.
Carter
16:47
But generally speaking, what Corey said about the, you know, there's a $25,000 performance bond or a $50,000 performance bond. We are going to take part of your performance bond until such time as we are able to prove that this didn't happen. That is the smallest possible punishment. And that is the punishment that is generally laid out because until such time as they've actually been proven guilty, there is no point. Now, one could make the case, well, if he's the leader, then we have to take the leader out from the party. Yeah, you do. Yeah. If they've cheated, then you have to take them out. And that's unfortunate, but it's much better than to find out afterwards that they didn't cheat and you've taken this extraordinary action. And let's be clear, this is an extraordinary action, especially this late in the game. If they decided not to take his papers, that's an action. That's an ordinary action, right? Many people try and submit papers. And you're talking about
Zain
17:39
about rejecting him up front, as was also reported, right? Right. Right.
Carter
17:43
That's an ordinary action. They chose not to take the ordinary action because they saw that as extraordinary. Right.
Carter
17:49
This is their party. They've now gone to an extraordinary position when the ordinary was too extreme for them. This is a big, big reaction.
Zain
18:00
So then, Corey, this kind of brings us to, you know, I've blown up my little game on the first question. So here we go. This kind of brings us to Patrick Brown of today then, right? So this This leaker being identified, being exposed, whatever you want to call it, this story's out, right? Patrick Brown has seen this story. The Globe and Mail has reported on this. This is out. Statement's out.
Zain
18:19
Is Patrick Brown's best
Zain
18:21
best strategy going forward the
Zain
18:24
the same scorched earth media blitz? Or is it publicly talking about something like the fix is in, that even if something happened, even if something happened in
Zain
18:34
in our campaign, that this is a disproportionate reaction to me? Like, what do you think the Patrick Brown strategy is now? Because it's what
Zain
18:43
what we know has changed. So talk to me about that a bit.
Corey
18:46
Well, I think you don't need to fundamentally change your story. You continue to say, this
Corey
18:51
this is the first I've heard these allegations. The party did not share with me the nature of these allegations. That's very consistent with what he said there. um
Corey
19:00
need to know the actual facts as if you want to be cynical about it you've got to get your story straight so assuming that there is a story to be told and spin to be spun you've got to get that locked
Corey
19:12
locked away you've got to understand exactly what it is that you're going to be saying and what your version of the case is there and then you've got to you've got to say it loudly you've got to repeat it you've got to you you've got to flip
Corey
19:23
flip the onus and and i think that there There are some things that you have available to you that are about natural
Zain
19:28
natural justice, maybe some
Zain
19:30
some of the doubts that Steve and I have raised, which,
Corey
19:32
which, again, I feel kind of funny raising because at the end of the day, do
Corey
19:36
do I think it's possible this happened? Yeah, I for sure think it's possible that things happen largely as explained here. But the
Corey
19:42
the whole the whole fact base is not out yet. And
Corey
19:45
And I think in some ways, the way the party has been acting since validates
Corey
19:51
your suggestion on the night that this all occurred, that some people are out to get you, because at this point, you actually have more evidence of that than you did two days ago.
Zain
20:00
Carter, what is the strategy for Brown going forward? Is it the same tone, cadence as he's had on his media blitz thus far? Or does it need to change now as the whistleblower is identified, as their story comes out, as the details start emerging drip by drip?
Carter
20:17
I would go totally fact
Carter
20:19
fact based now, right? Like,
Carter
20:21
Like, let's find out where this woman was working, where was, you know, what role did she have in the campaign?
Carter
20:26
How many memberships was she responsible for? order? How many hours did she put into the campaign? Is she a high-level person, a low-level person, mid-level person? What is she supposed to be doing?
Carter
20:38
Is there any possibility that these allegations could be true? Your best bet right now is to be as open as possible, given the fact that if you're
Carter
20:47
you're modestly guilty, then you're going to say the punishment's disproportionate to the crime. If you're not at all guilty, then you're going to say, this
Carter
20:56
is this person. She drove me around three days when i was in london ontario this is you know i don't know where she's from you know like we still have to learn a little bit more about her but you know there are there are key people in a campaign there are you know i i characterize them as the strategy team right the the the cabinet which is the people who are getting my get shit done committee and then there's volunteers and where did she fit was she on the campaign cabinet was she one of the a strategic team, what's your top, top six, top eight, top 10 people, then
Carter
21:28
you've probably got a problem. But if she was way down the hierarchy, because there's also a lot of people who think they're really big in campaigns. I think each of us has experienced this, where there's people, you know, like Zane once characterized himself as a campaign manager, which seemed impossible, impossible to me. But,
Carter
21:45
But, you know, people characterize themselves as being an insider or in a campaign and they've never set foot in the campaign. Like you don't even know who they are. So let's find out more about who this person is. And if, if it turns out that there
Carter
21:58
there is literally no way that this could be, the
Carter
22:01
the allegations could be as, you know, be true, then put out your case, start telling your case to the public because you're not going to have time to get to a courtroom.
Corey
22:08
Yeah. And you know, on that point, Steven, the notion of emailing the candidate and getting the response doesn't really tell us anything because in that context, the candidate is still going to say, Hey, you ever need anything? Here's my email address. or here's my text. It's not hard to get a
Corey
22:22
a text message associated with a candidate.
Corey
22:24
And if a candidate gets a complaint or a concern like that, especially if they know nothing about it, they're like, you leave that with me. I'll
Corey
22:30
I'll take care of it. That's the most candidate response in the world.
Carter
22:34
You know what would be gold though? It would be gold if they had a double email structure, a primary email for the close insiders and a secondary email for the further away people that was managed by another staffer. that
Carter
22:48
that would be primo because then you could say she wasn't even in you know direct contact
Corey
22:55
this is the most reckless of speculations we're like
Carter
22:58
we don't know anything right we we're getting exactly one side of the discussion and patrick brown if he's going to survive this needs to put out another side of the discussion that that the details and says yes this person was close to me or no this person was not close to me this is this is what she was expected this is what she did so
Zain
23:18
so so okay you're suggesting he go fact-based here which means by just by definition more detail more
Zain
23:27
isn't the lesson in the rule or the conventional thinking that if you're going down that path you are losing the
Zain
23:33
the plot you are losing the situation shouldn't he just be straight up attacking headline click baity as he's been doing over over the past 24 hours?
Carter
23:43
Well, no, this is, you need to win over the media on this and the media will want facts. They're not going to want headlines. And I, and I think I'm proposing actually two courses of action, Zane. I'm saying that if he thinks he's, he's, you know, that these, the punishment, if he, if he knows he's guilty, but the punishment is, is, is too high. I'm thinking that, that, that going with the, the punishment's too high discussion is, is not bringing forward the facts is one option. The other option is to bring forward the facts and show that that this woman couldn't possibly have had the impact that, that, that she's claiming. Or, you know, like both of those, I mean, she could be top three
Carter
24:20
three operatives for all I know. She could be like one of the top people in the campaign and she could be, you know, and, and Patrick Brown could be dead
Carter
24:29
dead in the water, in which case he's just got to start saying, well, this punishment is, is much greater than the actual crime.
Corey
24:37
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're, I think it's a good opportunity to make a broader point. When we often give general campaign advice, it's for specific situations. It's very context dependent. Like
Zain
24:49
Like if you're explaining
Corey
24:50
explaining you're losing as an argument in a general election with
Corey
24:53
a low information electorate, who's maybe going to clue in for 30 seconds, right?
Corey
24:58
If you're explaining you're losing would be terrible advice in a courtroom.
Corey
25:02
And so you've got
Zain
25:02
got to think about where
Corey
25:05
you are and who you're talking to. And so to Stephen's point, he
Corey
25:08
he can't just continue to say the same thing and offer no additional details to the media. That's that's almost by definition not news.
Corey
25:16
And he can't have the news media being deeply skeptical of him in the first place and thinking, well, all
Corey
25:22
all we know is they didn't think he should be in the first place. We've got this story. Seems like he's guilty. Like he does need to put a fact base out that that changes the conversation with that opinion leading class.
Corey
25:32
and um and then at the same time again to steven's point you would run your parallel argument that would be much simpler much shorter maybe angrier with the general conservative electorate all
Corey
25:44
all of this is just should
Corey
25:47
should make us all feel gross though because you know at the end of the day the question becomes what actually happened here and
Corey
25:52
and and that's of most interest to
Zain
25:54
hey carter have you uh have you had enough of the speculation i think cory has but i don't think you have i don't think you You have had enough. Hey,
Zain
26:00
Hey, you want to speculate on one more thing for me? And
Zain
26:02
And when I say speculate, I mean scenario plan.
Zain
26:06
Okay, that's another way to speculate. The other
Carter
26:09
other way to think of this is frame your options.
Carter
26:13
Sure. Let me throw
Zain
26:14
throw another wrinkle then. Can I throw another wrinkle?
Zain
26:18
What if there's more than one instance of this?
Carter
26:23
shoot or drop? Let's say it's the same thing multiple
Carter
26:29
Well, this is where like so
Carter
26:31
so the leadership in 2012, 2011, when Gary Mark picked up three endorsements and he and he did them all on one day as like this is a gift from heaven. Right. Because three allegations or three moves on one day, if there are let's say that there were three allegations, if the CPC unloads them like one on Thursday, one on Friday, one on Monday, Patrick Brown could be dead. right because every day a new story is absolutely deadly because you you're you're always firefighting you're never in a position where you can start to tell your different tale and the story that you told on friday may be contradicted by the story that you're you know the as a response as
Carter
27:12
so so this like if
Carter
27:15
if there are more shoes to drop patrick brown might be done that that is just one of the the realities of this but
Carter
27:22
but for the purposes of this exercise, I'm trying to assume what's the survivable, you
Carter
27:29
you know, like nuclear war planning, what's the survivable, you
Carter
27:32
you know, where could you be to be survivable? This
Carter
27:34
This is political nuclear war. This is your candidacy is over. You are out. You no longer have any choice. This is the worst case scenario.
Carter
27:44
what could we survive? And what you could survive are scenarios like the ones that i'm speculating about
Carter
27:50
we could be completely wrong and
Carter
27:52
and probably are but
Carter
27:54
if if there is a survivable scenario there's a tremendous amount of value from game planning different survivable venue things because i'll guarantee you one thing too the people who are planning this don't know the true story right
Carter
28:08
right it's a great point
Zain
28:09
point that's a really good point cory uh your face said that you had enough of the speculation but then you raised your hand so
Zain
28:14
so i'm gonna i'm I'm going to let you jump in on this.
Corey
28:16
Well, look, the other question is, what's survival? What's your goal if you're Patrick Brown? If your goal is to get back into the race, that's
Corey
28:24
that's one thing. I don't know. Maybe it's even possible the ballots were printed with your name on it. You know, it would surprise me, but it's not impossible that some court could say the potential harm to you is so significant.
Corey
28:35
We're going to let you go forward as a candidate and we'll figure all of this out.
Corey
28:39
What the hell do I know? I'm not a lawyer. but
Corey
28:41
if your goal is perhaps to position yourself for the next thing and
Corey
28:45
maybe it's not running for mayor brampton anymore maybe it's running as as
Corey
28:49
as an independent or part of a new conservative rump that's trying to take i like i don't know but like if it depends on what your next thing is
Corey
28:57
it's that old adage if you don't know where you're going you might end up somewhere else and he's got to know where he's going because
Corey
29:03
because that will dictate a lot of his tactics already he's gone so scorched earth with the conservative establishment on this one feels
Corey
29:09
feels like that door is kind of shot. What
Corey
29:12
trying to keep open?
Zain
29:13
It seems, Carter, it might be legacy. It might be reputational management. It might be, perhaps to Corey's point, the next thing, whether that dons the Conservative Party name or not.
Zain
29:23
But Carter, I want to actually jump into something else, which is what you mentioned earlier.
Zain
29:28
We're back to the choices, the strategic choices that were made over the course of the last little bit.
Zain
29:34
The Conservative Party made
Zain
29:36
made a a strategic choice to
Zain
29:38
put this letter out by Ian Brody, but not release the fact base,
Zain
29:43
to not release what the allegation was, what happened. They said, listen, we forwarded that to Elections Canada. The choice made by the Conservative Party, because it gave Patrick Brown this window
Zain
29:56
ultimately saying, they're not telling you shit, they're not telling me shit, this is bullshit.
Zain
30:01
That choice made by the Conservative Party, what would have made it better? What do you think of the choice? What would have made it better?
Carter
30:07
I think the choice is really dangerous. I
Carter
30:09
I think the choice is super duper dangerous. I think Ian Brody is at risk for being sued personally. I think that the entire leadership election
Carter
30:15
election organizing committee is at risk of being sued.
Carter
30:20
basically saying that Patrick
Carter
30:24
They're showing no evidence of the actual cheat. They've had some things pop up subsequently. You know, subsequently, the
Carter
30:30
the whistleblower has come forward, but
Carter
30:34
that may have been orchestrated by them, but that may not help them. And
Carter
30:38
And Patrick Brown's no longer bound by the terms of his leadership.
Carter
30:41
He's out. He's gone. He has he has no duty to the to the CPC any longer to behave in any way, shape or form.
Carter
30:49
So he he can he can sue these people. He can he can he can scorch earth. He can come after the party. He can destroy it and break it into two, which is what I think we
Carter
30:58
we think it should do anyways, because it's not it is a little bit of a Frankenstein's
Carter
31:06
nonetheless, I mean, however
Carter
31:07
however they choose to, I
Carter
31:09
I think that they put themselves in tremendous risk by communicating the way they did, because I still think they chose an extraordinary, extraordinary outcome.
Carter
31:19
uh, the outcome of kicking someone out after the membership closes, you know, what,
Carter
31:24
what, 60 days before the vote, uh, whatever the number may be like, this is an extraordinary, extraordinary situation.
Carter
31:33
I just, you know, if I were, you know, I'm not a lawyer, I don't even pretend to be one like, like Corey does because I didn't take the LSAT or whatever the hell he took SATs or seven
Carter
31:41
seven twenties or seven, I don't even know. But
Carter
31:44
But here's the thing. Um, Um, I
Carter
31:46
I think there would be some lawyers in the room. And I think that if I were a lawyer right now, I'd be looking at the Patrick Brown situation and,
Carter
31:53
you know, I'd be saying this, this is a, there's
Carter
31:57
there's an opportunity here. There's an opportunity to have a discussion about whether or not this is really negatively impacted Patrick Brown. And I think on its face, it has tremendously.
Corey
32:06
Yeah, I don't know. And so here's
Corey
32:08
here's the thing. I agree that there's a lot of risk for a lot of people at this point, but it's the decision that created the risk. When we think about the communications here, I
Corey
32:17
I don't think they had a real choice. And in fact, their communication was probably designed in some ways to minimize risk to parties, because if they had put forward allegations, untested, unproven, and
Corey
32:27
and those allegations turned out to be wrong, the risk Stephen's talking about is even higher. So instead, the letter from Ian Brody was really focused on, we
Corey
32:37
we got serious allegations, we got nothing in the means of response, therefore
Corey
32:41
therefore he's out. and we've moved it on to Elections Canada to make a determination on the legality of all of
Zain
32:49
of this here. So
Corey
32:50
So in some ways, I think their communication tried to do the opposite of what we've somewhat implied
Zain
32:54
implied here. I think Ian Brody's communication was
Corey
32:55
was designed to say
Corey
32:57
our problem was with their
Corey
32:59
their lack of response and process, right? And it left a ton of innuendo. And I think if
Corey
33:04
if you ran it through a test of what would a normal person reading this with a normal lens think about it, it puts Patrick Brown in a terrible light. And
Corey
33:12
I don't think it will necessarily save anybody if
Corey
33:15
if it turns out these allegations are all fabricated, you know, in that in that scenario, which I'm not saying is the case.
Corey
33:20
And yeah, there'll be a heap of trouble for all sorts of people.
Corey
33:27
yeah, ultimately, it's the decision that created the risk, the communication, if anything, tried to minimize what was already an immense amount of risk based on the decision. decision.
Zain
33:37
I have another question for you on this, which is, you
Zain
33:40
you mentioned it up front, which is the Conservative Party had a recommendation
Zain
33:43
recommendation outright, that a recommendation that the vetting committee recommended back in the spring that Patrick Brown's campaign application not be approved. And multiple sources kind of said,
Zain
33:54
said, listen, that members of the leadership community made a verbal recommendation to their colleagues that he'd not run the race of
Zain
34:04
was in the race he was granted that
Zain
34:06
know this is a bit of revisionist history but as you look at that strategic choice and what would have made it better where do you think that kind of puts the conservative party and where do you kind of analyze that in hindsight a bit well
Corey
34:16
i mean obviously if the leoc could go back in time they wouldn't let him run that would that would be so much cleaner i mean it would create a totally
Corey
34:24
totally different suite of problems back in the spring and i don't
Corey
34:27
i don't think like like it would have been clean by any this
Corey
34:30
would be cleaner than the current mess that they're absolutely in um
Corey
34:34
um very interesting though it
Corey
34:36
does make me think about steven's point about a drip campaign if something comes out tomorrow and the next day and the day after that about patrick brown well moral's
Corey
34:44
may be why they
Corey
34:45
they didn't want to allow him to run in
Zain
34:46
in the first place
Zain
34:48
right you know there's some foreshadowing
Corey
34:49
foreshadowing that's out there
Corey
34:51
as of when we're recording which is 9 26 mountain time which is the only appropriate time zone in this country uh
Corey
34:57
uh we still don't know so i
Corey
35:01
i mean like it's hard to say your
Corey
35:03
your thoughts on that carter
Carter
35:05
yeah i just don't know i mean it
Carter
35:08
it's hard to imagine you
Carter
35:11
you know i i'm i'm
Carter
35:13
i'm pretty much with cory it's hard to imagine what happens now so
Carter
35:17
it's gonna be an interesting time but
Corey
35:19
you do agree that mountain time is the only appropriate time zone right let me tell
Carter
35:23
we talked we talked about going to mountain time constantly now right mountain time is when zane's when zane's in mountain time is
Zain
35:30
i don't know if you guys understand this but mountain time is time everything else is not time it
Zain
35:35
it is actually a fiction um
Zain
35:37
um carter i'm gonna stick with you on this the
Zain
35:40
the liberal party they're
Zain
35:41
they're getting involved in this shit uh
Zain
35:43
uh there's a letter i i haven't caught up because i've been out all day but cory adam vancouverton sounds right is that who put it out yeah uh yeah a letter a letter by adam vancouverton being like we need to investigate what's happening in the Patrick Brown campaign. Stephen Carter, I'm paraphrasing, of course, it goes on, and you guys may have the details better, and I'll pull it up.
Zain
36:00
But the fact that they're getting involved here, that there's a sitting Liberal MP getting involved in this situation,
Zain
36:07
what do you make of that strategic choice, and what would have made it better? Carter, I'll go to you first on this.
Carter
36:12
Well, I mean, I don't object to the idea that they should be reported to Elections Canada. You know, Adam Vancouver did make a number of well
Carter
36:21
well-thought-through points. I mean, I mean, the party itself has probably benefited from some of these illegal donations. There's been, you know, the party, the
Carter
36:28
the Conservative Party of Canada is at risk if this is if, you know, depending on what level of truth there is to to
Carter
36:35
to the various allegations.
Carter
36:38
So reporting it to Elections Canada, I think, is fine. I
Carter
36:41
I think that publishing the letter is just absolute stupidity.
Carter
36:45
You're not in this story.
Carter
36:46
You've got a free pass. You've got a free pass on your ethics issues. issues. The very first thing that came back is, really, this party wants to point out ethics issues? It's a needless hit. Report them. Wait for Elections Canada to do their investigation and then find out if there was anything wrong. Then hit them. Hit
Carter
37:06
Hit them when the allegation becomes the truth. There is nothing to gain from publicizing this letter. And
Carter
37:12
And publicizing the letter hurts
Carter
37:14
hurts the party, and it's
Carter
37:16
it's a huge mistake. say before
Zain
37:18
i jump in on this what do you think yeah
Corey
37:22
yeah i mean let's be real what's the outcome he wanted it had already been reported to elections canada by the conservatives yes
Zain
37:29
so he was encouraging this that's right so so what like was this a was this a social media like virtue point thing you think yeah
Corey
37:36
yeah it was and it was clearly partisan and i think that that's the challenge people would read it and say okay because it's not as though it added anything substantive to the conversation. And it actually means a lot less that a Liberal MP would say, I'm concerned about the Conservative Party than it would be a Conservative Party saying, I'm concerned about the Conservative Party, which is actually the
Corey
37:58
state that we actually found ourselves in two days ago. So I
Corey
38:01
I just didn't see the need to run into that burning building. There's nothing that you're going to salvage. You're just going to light yourself on fire there. And perhaps Adam was very well-intentioned in this action. Maybe he thought, well,
Corey
38:12
well, this is an outrage and I just need people to know how upset i feel about it but yeah
Corey
38:16
sometimes you've got to stifle those emotions and you've got to think about these things tactically and this was a good example of in my most charitable read he let his emotions get the best of him in
Corey
38:27
in my least charitable read he was trying to do a cynical political ploy that immediately was apparent
Corey
38:32
apparent to all involved except for the liberal partisans who were already on side in the first place who
Corey
38:37
who you know then championed him saying good for you but
Corey
38:40
but you know it didn't win a single vote it
Corey
38:42
it didn't create a single bit more doubt than was already there. And in many ways, I think it weakened the
Corey
38:47
situation because it created this opportunity for the conservatives to
Corey
38:51
rally around dunking on him and
Corey
38:53
also talk about liberal ethics failings instead of having to deal with talking about their own ethical
Zain
39:01
And bringing back the oldest narrative thread about the liberals and perhaps arguably the most effective and
Zain
39:05
and potent one against them. Corey, you know, I
Zain
39:08
I want to talk about some choices has Pierre Polyev made over the last 24, 36 hours? Let's talk about two of them. The
Zain
39:13
The first one was, of course, when the Brown News, when it's announced, his campaign put out a statement, and I'll paraphrase, fuck this guy, Patrick Brown. He's a piece of shit liar. Fuck this guy. I'm now going to take a giant dump on his political grave. Did I mention fuck this guy? He's a liar. It was assertive. It was aggressive. It was not humble. It was everything we said when we recorded that Pierre Polyev would more than likely not be able to help himself and do yeah
Zain
39:41
yeah your thoughts on that statement and i'll actually find it for the benefit of our listeners to get the actual statement but your thought on the fact that pure polyam put out a statement and it wasn't the
Zain
39:50
the front runner in a conservative party that he wanted to bridge style statement
Corey
39:55
statement see my last comment multiply by 10 because of the consequence right the same thing i just said about adam vancouver didn't hear
Corey
40:02
hear polyam if you're listening you
Corey
40:04
you let your emotions get the better of your tactics here there was absolutely no reason to to do this if this is a political party that you want to run and
Corey
40:10
and that you want to bring together um
Corey
40:13
like at this point looks like a clear path
Corey
40:16
maybe we'll be surprised maybe the votes will come out and the points will come out in a different way but uh
Corey
40:21
uh patrick brown not being in the race just makes it more likely that you're going to win a race that you were already very likely to win and
Corey
40:27
you've got to think about the unity of this organization and if you start going so scorched earth on people uh
Corey
40:33
uh that doesn't actually help you in the long term talk about about winning the battle and losing the war what what's the benefit he's
Corey
40:39
he's already dead do you need to keep stabbing into this body do
Corey
40:43
do you really no
Corey
40:44
no i mean you've got to be thinking about the body politic of uh of the conservative party if you're going to be leader so i just think it was a big mistake it was destined
Corey
40:53
destined to happen both carter and i said he shouldn't do it and he will
Corey
40:57
um but it was a big mistake carter
Corey
41:00
carter i'm going to read a bit from
Zain
41:00
from it you know um let me read some highlights this is not the first time patrick brown has been disqualified from running for public office for reasons of ethical impropriety he did it before it's happened before uh i should have been expected in the hour since the decision patrick has lashed out against our campaign in the party as always when caught patrick tries to make himself a victim but ultimately the only person responsible for disqualification is himself uh blah blah blah our campaign will continue to focus they do end it in a positive note but ultimately being like this guy's a liar fuck this guy uh it It happened to him again. Of course, it happened to him again. Carter, your thoughts of the choice they made, what would have made it better?
Carter
41:36
Nothing makes it better. The choice that they should be making is just to continue on and finding the votes that they need to get out of the 665,000 members.
Carter
41:44
You know, just do the work that you need to do. When someone else is dead on the side of the road,
Carter
41:48
you don't stop and piss on them.
Carter
41:50
And there is no upside to the the communication but this is pierre's whole point so the high wants to be in in every conversation whether it helps him or hurts him you know and and whether we're talking about his reaction to the patrick brown situation or we're talking about his letter about rachel gilmore uh
Carter
42:08
uh and global television this is a you know it's it's a gong show reaction this guy is he's a loose cannon without without any emotional filter and the people around him don't seem to be stopping him from his his
Carter
42:21
his uh worst tendencies they seem to be encouraging well
Corey
42:25
yeah i don't understand why like even knowing that he was baited okay like the patrick brown campaign did shoot first like let's be let's be real here right but their
Corey
42:35
their objectives are totally different they don't need to get into a pissing contest with a dead man um
Corey
42:41
they they should have said it's troubling it's unfortunate um i you know election it's with elections canada now and we'll just leave it there I
Corey
42:48
hope those who signed up for the Patrick Brown campaign will be interested in my plans to make Canada the freest country on Earth. Get rid of the game. That
Carter
42:55
That would have been great.
Carter
42:56
you would have been great.
Carter
42:58
You know, but Corey and I are sensible human beings and Pierre Palliev is a moron.
Zain
43:03
Let's talk about let's talk about one more thing on the Pierre Palliev side. You guys have both mentioned it now, which is this statement,
Zain
43:08
statement, this letter. I don't even know what the fuck to call it. But so as Patrick Brown implodes
Zain
43:14
implodes by drip campaign, tries
Zain
43:16
tries to fight himself, fight Pierre from a position of very little leverage, Pierre Polyev goes after a global journalist with
Zain
43:27
with this statement. And I don't even know what to call it, Corey. Like, the statement
Zain
43:31
statement has very little context about what it is. It just pretty much is like a lash out against the media. Since you insist on demonizing Canadians or dare to speak up against the Trudeau government, we can only assume global news is content to be a liberal mouthpiece. Mr. Polly have supported James Topp's singular cause of ending vaccine mandates so people can take back control of their lives. He ultimately says, listen, if I'm racist marching with this guy, walking with this guy from the convoy, that means that anyone who's ever met Justin Trudeau, like myself, Pierre Polly Evra, is racist because Justin Trudeau had racist outbursts, quote unquote, including dressing up in racist costumes. uh, impersonating visible minorities.
Zain
44:11
talk to me about this choice. Talk to me about what would make it better. I don't even know how to process this, to
Corey
44:17
I, I, we have seen this so much. It does feel like it is a
Corey
44:22
a calculated use of the Donald Trump playbook, right? Go absolutely on the offensive, start throwing haymakers. If, uh, if
Corey
44:28
if you're accused of, of stealing somebody's dinner fork off the table,
Corey
44:34
right? It's just such an overreaction to what's uh what's there and um i think it's it's really unfortunate that we're seeing this kind of rhetoric go uh so extreme um
Corey
44:44
um uh and so mainstream i suppose you
Corey
44:47
you know it's interesting because the reporter in question uh rachel gilmore she put out
Corey
44:52
questions that she put forward to the polyev campaign and
Corey
44:56
and they're super fair like there's nothing about them maybe the last one is a little bit like don't
Corey
45:01
don't you think you owe yeah but the the first four are very
Corey
45:05
very sensible questions and they're really about what do you think is the parameters here do you think it's what's
Corey
45:11
what's your stance on walking with people who might have views people have challenges with and
Corey
45:14
all of that so i
Corey
45:18
i i mean i know exactly what pierre polyev has to gain in terms of of creating a new villain uh
Corey
45:25
so in that kind of like in that context i do i
Corey
45:28
don't know what he had to gain doing it at this moment and going
Corey
45:31
back to this moments this was like a couple of days after the inciting
Corey
45:34
inciting incident that he put this out i
Corey
45:37
don't understand what was the narrative he was trying to control or why he thought it needed to be put out at that time and
Corey
45:42
and i just don't know why anybody thinks this is a good thing to do
Carter
45:48
it's not a good thing to do it's
Carter
45:49
it's not a good thing to do unless you're you're going to then turn around and use this letter back or this note back to be the basis of a fundraising campaign
Carter
45:58
to your members that all don't trust the mainstream media and all watch the rebel trouble.
Carter
46:02
If that's your audience and that's what you're going for, then I guess you can say that this makes some sense. But
Carter
46:08
it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense to pick enemies with the news media because they're
Carter
46:13
they're going to write the story on you. I mean, the entire news media sided with Rachel Gilmore over Pierre Polyev. On top of that, these are three very The answers to her questions were in his statement. He simply could have said, I'm not going to allow, I've chosen a single issue to support this man on, and it is the ridiculous overreach of, you know, vaccinations and immunization requirements.
Carter
46:42
That is it, right?
Carter
46:43
right? Everything else, and Justin Trudeau has been just as racist as this guy. Now, I don't believe that, but you could say that and she'd have to report it. Instead, you know, dismiss
Carter
46:54
dismiss the reporter, screw, you know, throw out a public statement that goes everywhere and then do so at the same time that Patrick Brown, the guy who holds the keys to the only way that Sharae can win, is
Carter
47:06
is dead on the side of the road. road like why on earth would you do this at this particular moment in time it's just bad
Carter
47:18
bad process just proving he's a bad bad candidate i
Zain
47:24
i don't know if he's gonna
Zain
47:25
yet he's gonna get a coronation and we talked last week carter about how much we love his videos and how he's a world-class communicator so no this is yeah you two did you
Zain
47:33
did that's something that's something oh this is good carter it's good it's good that's good we we you know let me
Corey
47:38
me and And now let me argue the other point here, which is he
Corey
47:42
he has clearly made a decision that he wants to go to that well, that, by the way, lest we forget, worked for Donald Trump,
Corey
47:49
right? Grabbing onto people's grievances, making them angry about the state of things, you know, creating this real, real
Corey
47:55
real gap between, you know, parties and peoples and just
Corey
47:59
just saying, this is my side, this is their side, let's throw some rocks at their side. and
Corey
48:04
and um it's it's probably you know we've got a comment here on our chat here and i agree it's probably not just about fundraising it's probably about that movement
Corey
48:13
and so i think um i
Corey
48:16
i wouldn't write it off i guess i don't understand it at this moment but
Corey
48:21
but it's pretty clear what he's trying to do and it did work south of the border let's
Zain
48:25
let's leave that there move it on to our next segment our next segment carter i want to do this quickly bojo no mo carter he is he is no more uh
Zain
48:37
60 members of his government reside almost half of his payroll carter
Zain
48:43
carter forrest johnson has finally said fuck this i am not going to try to cling on to power anymore but he's also said listen i'll remain as the prime minister uh and i'll continue as caretaker uh leader uh while you guys select elect your successor.
Zain
48:57
Carter, we don't have time for a deep dive on this, but give me your take on this and give me your take as it relates to the
Zain
49:03
the strategy that you saw of all these resignations and then ultimately the tipping point for Boris Johnson. Did he have any other choice?
Carter
49:11
No, he was dead.
Carter
49:12
I mean, he was dead the day that they did the vote and he got just, I can't remember what the numbers were, but there were a number of people who were voting against him was so high that we took note of it and said, this is not good. This is the equivalent of the 79% that brought down Redford
Carter
49:30
Redford and brought down Stelmack.
Carter
49:34
It's not the 55 that kills Klein immediately. It's not the 51 that kills Kenny immediately.
Carter
49:39
But it is one of those numbers that you look at and go, Jesus, is
Carter
49:44
Is that enough to get us to where we actually need to be? um
Carter
49:47
um and obviously it wasn't um
Carter
49:50
being required to get to the place where you fire one of your key advisor you know key cabinet ministers and you see 59 additional resignations i
Carter
50:00
at that point he
Carter
50:01
he probably should have left the day before uh
Carter
50:04
uh in order to kind of leave with his head held high but there was no other option well head
Carter
50:10
head held high for him isn't a big a big level to get over But I think that he was dead. He was a dead man walking when the first vote happened. And, you
Carter
50:19
know, this is just this is how long he made it before he died.
Zain
50:23
Corey, do you have any other choice here?
Corey
50:28
had to know that it was all over, right? He was the clown that didn't know when to leave the stage. But when the lights went off, that was it. You know, there was there was nobody there for him anymore. more.
Corey
50:37
Even up until just hours before he resigned, there was reporting that he wanted to stay and fight, wanted
Corey
50:44
wanted to stay and fight as his cabinet was just flooding out of the organization. I was really wondering how
Corey
50:50
how many, you know, third rate stringers he was going to have to throw into these jobs. Cabinets
Zain
50:53
Cabinets are pretty big,
Corey
50:54
big, you know, in the UK,
Corey
50:56
UK, there's a lot of various
Corey
50:57
various people in various his roles so i
Corey
50:59
i you know i was really um i
Corey
51:04
i i guess not not surprised that he left carter's right it started to feel inevitable probably even before that vote like it's just you know there was this accumulation of ill will and poison in the system but
Corey
51:16
i guess at the end of the day i uh you
Corey
51:19
you know i would i was surprised that he managed to go out with such a whimper uh he should have gone out the the day before or gone
Corey
51:26
gone out in a blaze of glory. I'm not sure.
Zain
51:29
It's interesting. It kind of ties back to one of the episodes we did recently. Why is it that so many generally
Zain
51:34
generally hyper-intelligent, political savvy leaders, prime
Zain
51:39
prime ministers, leaders leave on such a low note, leave on such a down note of their career rather than knowing that the jig is up and getting out of there?
Zain
51:51
Corey, from the perspective of, I'm going to stick with you on this, there's
Zain
51:55
there's a natural comparison here to be made. Do you know which one I'm going to go for?
Zain
51:59
Jason Kenney, I'd have to imagine. Yeah. Talk
Zain
52:02
Talk to me about that.
Zain
52:06
Let's lay out some of the facts, right? Conservative, caucus support, a lot of this bubbling up during COVID, some of it around choices, some of it around ethical issues, still
Zain
52:18
still wanting to stay on.
Zain
52:20
Fair comparison, what strikes you as being eerily you know similar and and substantially different i should ask maybe in that way
Corey
52:29
well the substantially different one is jason kenney did not hemorrhage cabinet ministers fair at all right his his cabinet hung together and um and the other obvious difference here is that uh jason
Corey
52:43
jason kenney uh when he won but barely held on in his review he knew it was time to go so he had a better sense of timing than
Corey
52:52
than boris johnson who showed uh
Corey
52:54
uh shockingly little aptitude uh given that he had knifed theresa may under such similar conditions you
Zain
53:00
you know like it just felt like uh
Corey
53:02
uh he he should have had a better sense of how this was all going to end for him
Corey
53:07
one of the contrasts that we will probably want to talk about in this next bit here is that because of the way and we've talked about this like we actually talked about this when boris johnson became prime minister i don't know if you guys remember many
Corey
53:19
many years ago at this time but
Corey
53:22
they run their leadership contest fast in
Zain
53:25
the very very fast yeah
Corey
53:28
well fast by our standards i should say there's no reason that we couldn't run them in a month as well but we're going to be in a situation where jason kenney resigned months before boris johnson and
Corey
53:39
and will be replaced months after boris johnson and
Corey
53:42
and that's pretty wild and we should probably think about why why we run such absurdly long contests in this country. And Carter and I have been on this before. Like there's no need for them to be this long.
Corey
53:52
They just drain resources and attention and they never do the party building that you think they're going to do. See, by the way, the conservative party of Canada's leadership race, which could
Corey
54:00
could have been over by now, right? If they had had a saner kind of system to elect their leader,
Corey
54:05
instead of having to deal with all of this chaos and this increasing bad blood,
Corey
54:11
don't have a ton to learn from the UK conservatives. That's fucking clear. I think, but
Corey
54:16
but we might have this to learn from.
Zain
54:18
Carter, I said this would be a 30-minute episode, and here we are, a minute 54. Do you know why? Because I like to give people the content, and I like to keep you guys around.
Carter
54:25
No, because we have no censorship capacity. This
Zain
54:28
is absolutely, no sense. We spent 20 minutes on baseless speculation. Do I regret it? No, because I called it scenario planning. I thought that was a very smart framing on my part. Carter,
Zain
54:39
you know, this also means that Dominic Cummings, a.e. yourself, who is a senior advisor to the prime minister, will probably be making a comeback in some way, shape, or form in the next month. So long live the comeback of the political strategist. Maybe that gives you some wind behind your back, Carter, as well for your doppelganger. Final thoughts on this, Carter. The Kenny and Johnson comparison. Corey's kind of laid it out, the differences.
Zain
55:04
Anything you want to comment on regarding those two before we close up here?
Carter
55:08
Well, I just would say that, you know, you asked the question earlier, why
Carter
55:12
why do people stay? Because this is the last best job they'll ever have, right? Every day, Corey has said it before, you can do more in a single day in government than you can in like a lifetime outside of government. And
Carter
55:25
so you cling as long as you can, because the next job is going to be, you might make more money, you may have more power in some fashions, more staff, more people working for you, more revenues, but
Carter
55:39
but you'll never be in a situation that's like
Carter
55:41
like being the premier or being the prime minister. so you
Carter
55:44
hang on as long as you can in this vain attempt to stay relevant and then it's over and
Carter
55:49
and uh taking it from somebody who's who's had it be over a few times um it's a shitty feeling so
Carter
55:57
um this is a that's why people hold on that's why we're attracted to it like crack i
Zain
56:03
i hear you dominic um let's move it on to our final segment
Zain
56:06
segment at over under our lightning round. Stephen Carter over under on 5%. Stephen
Zain
56:13
Stephen Carter over under on 5%. Patrick
Zain
56:16
Patrick Brown's vote share on September 10th when the new leader of the Conservative Party of Canada is revealed.
Carter
56:21
They're not even going to announce it, so it's going to be under.
Zain
56:24
It'll be spoiled ballots. Yeah.
Carter
56:27
Well, they're going to count twos and threes, but they're not going to count first.
Zain
56:30
Corey, is that your answer too? You just jumped in on Carter's answer. You know, there's a format to the show. It's a very strict format. It's what keeps us at the top of the podcast game. Well, I know, and you broke it
Corey
56:38
it because you didn't tell Stephen that we do this segment for him. We always do this for him.
Zain
56:43
Carter, we do this segment for Corey. We always do it for Corey. We've known that, and I've had to tell you, and I'm sorry because his ego is very fragile. Corey, I'm going to stick with you on this one. Adam Vancouver did. Does he get a slap on the wrist, yes or no, by his party? You don't think so, hey? Because it seems like this was a freelance situation. It does. At least one would assume. you uh
Zain
57:02
uh do you think he gets a slap on the wrist and do situations like this where if someone's maybe overly enthusiastic uh
Zain
57:07
uh about their partisanship do they get slaps on the wrist even though it may not be the most strategic yeah
Corey
57:13
yeah so i think actually my my answer is no like the prime minister is probably not going to call him and take him down but
Corey
57:20
but i think somebody is probably going to say adam you shouldn't have fucking done
Corey
57:24
you count that as a slap on the wrist then yeah he'll get a slap on the wrist but if you mean any kind of actual legitimate punishment punishment but
Zain
57:32
it's a talking to carter do you agree it's a talking to that he gets i don't even think it's a talking to zane
Zain
57:37
zane i think it's a you
Zain
57:38
you shouldn't have done that you
Zain
57:39
you shouldn't talk i consider that a talking to where
Zain
57:42
where i'm fragile man where i'm cory you
Zain
57:44
you we we cave at anything cory and the northeast very much about guilt and discipline okay you shouldn't have done that means you're a failure okay that's how we interpret it up in the northeast carter cory
Carter
57:57
cory is is so naive this was directed by the prime minister's office they asked him to no there's no way no way
Carter
58:03
this is exactly what happened this is exactly what happened he was directed by the prime minister this is how bad they are moving
Corey
58:15
what a drive-by why
Zain
58:16
why do you okay no i can't let
Corey
58:18
let him don't do it zane
Zain
58:18
zane can't let him stop it's such an interesting why do you think that car give me one shred of like hint that this was a pmo communication because
Carter
58:28
you don't just put out statements without talking to the pmo in today's government you
Carter
58:33
you don't put out statements without talking to the center office
Zain
58:36
respond to that and i will move on
Carter
58:41
i'm not wrong uh
Zain
58:42
uh steven carter let's edit here uh yes
Zain
58:45
yes or no i'm looking what's the date today Today is July 7th. By the end of this month.
Zain
58:51
Okay, Carter, by the end of this month, end of July, is
Zain
58:54
is Marie Hennin still Patrick Brown's lawyer?
Zain
58:58
Ooh, interesting. Corey, is Marie Hennin still Patrick Brown's lawyer by the end of this month, July of the year 2022?
Corey
59:07
I was going to say yes, but then Stephen said yes. So hurtful.
Corey
59:13
Good. Following the format
Zain
59:13
format of the show. Following the format. I like it, Corey. We're going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 999.999 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velji. With me, as always, Corey
Zain
59:23
Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we will see you next time.