Transcript
Zain
0:02
This is The Strategist, episode 999.9. My name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan, and Guy.
Zain
0:11
We are here. We're at episode 999.9. This is the episode that many people have been looking forward to.
Zain
0:19
bet 99. I don't know if you know about this. You can bet on anything, and you can bet in-game. And I bet a lot of people are betting in-game right now that we would be at episode 1,000, but it's not there. It's not there, Carter.
Carter
0:29
Carter. no we're not ready we're
Carter
0:31
we're not ready yet are
Zain
0:31
are you guys fucking new if you're new welcome but also are you new what the
Carter
0:35
mean we got to get things ready there's work that needs to be done oh there's
Carter
0:38
there's you can't just do a 1000th episode uh
Zain
0:41
uh cory it is a heavy lift this is not going to be some amateur hour whenever we get to uh
Zain
0:47
uh the episode oh no this
Corey
0:49
this is going to be like an amateur two three hours this is this is a big spectacle that
Corey
0:54
that we're going to be doing
Zain
0:55
that's good amateur three hours is a good name uh it's a good subtitle for our podcast i
Carter
0:59
i like it um or the hurly burly uh carter you know why am
Zain
1:02
am i doing your job for you why
Carter
1:04
why am i thank you
Zain
1:05
you just rubs off it
Zain
1:07
it just rubs off on me carter
Zain
1:08
carter of course i cheated on the podcast yesterday i was on west of center a live show on stage yeah
Zain
1:15
let me tell you something uh bmo
Zain
1:18
bmo center has a very different energy than the maharaja banquet hall okay yeah i'm guessing i could
Zain
1:24
could hear and this is a grand total and i did account i could hear hear a grand total of zero hand dryers and there's very few samosas for sale very few samosas for sale on the floor uh
Carter
1:35
don't even know why you would do that show uh
Corey
1:37
yeah i mean listen but
Corey
1:39
some questionable choices but probably
Corey
1:41
probably fewer more questionable did
Carter
1:43
did you did you get a giant feast of of indian food before uh before your show i
Zain
1:50
i did not know Yeah, like eight dishes for three people. Yeah, that was like
Zain
1:56
For those who don't know, when we were doing our live show in Edmonton at the Maharaja Banquet Hall, they were incredibly generous to give us, Corey's not wrong, 12 dishes for four people. And it kept coming. I think we had an appetizer. We're like, this is great. This is all we need to go on stage. And they're like, no, we
Zain
2:12
we want you to have
Zain
2:14
have a full meal for a family of 40 before you do your podcast. It really was. uh and uh cory indulged and carter and i knew i did he lost
Zain
2:26
lost energy about 20 minutes into that yeah yeah it
Corey
2:30
you could tell literally a moment where i lost track of what my answer was and had to stop and ask what the question was you know that
Zain
2:37
that is actually true
Corey
2:39
with the benefit of hindsight with
Corey
2:41
with the benefit of hindsight i'm gonna blame the food yeah
Zain
2:43
yeah for sure yeah um
Zain
2:44
um carter anything else you want to talk about before we jump into uh our topic today on our patreon episode i
Carter
2:50
actually dropped below 500 for the first time in afl this year i got a four of nine and
Carter
2:56
i don't even know what to do i'm
Corey
2:57
i'm like you're you're worse than a coin toss yeah you're hearing i mean
Carter
3:00
mean um i've seen dogs knocking balls into garbage cans that do better than that than i'm doing so this is oh
Carter
3:09
oh it's just tragic so i'm gonna have to invest more time in the podcast because i'm not gonna make my money on afl predictions that's for sure carter
Zain
3:16
carter what's better for you your your afl score or your your prediction streak or um the
Zain
3:22
the number of winning campaigns you've been on like what's uh what comes out in uh in the balance for steven carter winning
Carter
3:26
winning campaign zane thanks for bringing it up i am the biggest winner you know okay
Corey
3:31
okay well thank you um on
Corey
3:33
on that note he's also the biggest loser he does a volume game in camp yeah that's good uh cory
Zain
3:40
cory let's do it let's move it on to our first segment our first segment managing managing managers managing themselves to make a comeback for
Corey
3:50
that's a deep cut that it is an extreme
Zain
3:52
extreme deep cut and i'm not going to explain it because that's what we do on this show hey
Zain
3:56
hey if you pay six bucks you get no context okay uh
Zain
3:59
uh that's what six bucks a month gives you gory raj sherman is back now you might be listeners to this podcast being like who the fuck is raj sherman well cory hogan will explain to you who my sherman is oh
Zain
4:10
okay well cory hogan will give you context, but I want to actually use the
Zain
4:14
the reemergence of one Raj Sherman. And we'll talk about the specifics of it because I want to put this outside of the Alberta context to
Zain
4:20
to truly talk about why the hell do we have this weird sort of dichotomy where this tension between us
Zain
4:28
us constantly complaining that whoever wants to run for office, how do we get this pipeline filled? Why are quality people not putting their hand up? And
Zain
4:36
And then on the other hand, the
Zain
4:37
the same old people can never get away. And this is, Ross Sherman's not the only person, although his situation might be unique and we'll get into that.
Zain
4:45
But the Brian Jeans, the Daniel Smiths, the John Cherays, the folks who cannot quit, they always have an inkling. They always have an urge to make a comeback. But Corey, before we get into all of that, explain to the non-Alberta listener or the Alberta listener who may not remember the year of what, 2012, who Ross Sherman is.
Corey
5:03
raj sherman um was a a
Corey
5:07
a pc mla he was elected he's an edmonton area pc mla first elected in 2008
Corey
5:14
and he uh came to loggerheads with his party about health care uh and he i think he sent like some missive to the caucus chair i can't remember who he sent it to but he sent some letter with a million people cc complaining about the uh the pc health care policy and was subsequently bounced from the PC. Caucus slash resigned. I mean, all of this gets murky at a certain point. Found himself in the wilderness, found himself in the Alberta Liberal Party, the official opposition of the time of which I was the executive director at the time. Isn't
Carter
5:44
Isn't that saying the same thing though? The wilderness, the Alberta Liberal Party? Isn't that the exact same? Yeah.
Corey
5:50
You know what? The wilderness feels a lot closer to civilization than the Alberta Liberal Party a lot of the time. And that was the exact same time that David Swan had stepped down. He stepped down right after Ed Stelmack stepped down as leader or announced his intention to step down as leader of the PCs and as premier of Alberta.
Corey
6:07
So David Swan decided he would also take a walk in the snow. The, the leadership was vacant. Raj Sermon ran for that leadership, uh, ran on like a bit of a folk hero status because he'd stood up to the PCs. Right.
Corey
6:19
And, uh, and he won the leadership rather handily.
Corey
6:22
Um, and then there was an election that followed, uh in 2012 and um he
Corey
6:29
you know he did better than expected i guess that's the best thing oh
Carter
6:33
oh my god who
Carter
6:34
who won that election again i can't remember 2012 2012
Carter
6:37
2012 who won that election you got somebody on this podcast yeah
Corey
6:42
yeah you know what's so funny because i was like so i was the campaign chair for that election for the liberals and i was being interviewed on election night just a totally detour here and like somebody was saying to me after i looked really happy because we'd won won five seats. I, you know, the pundits were saying zero
Corey
6:57
zero to two. So five
Corey
6:58
to me was like a phenomenal,
Corey
7:01
And, um, anyhow, the, uh, Rush Sherman then was leader of a caucus of five, uh,
Corey
7:07
uh, which was no longer the official opposition. The wild rose was now the official opposition. He actually remained as leader until 2015. And then he quit just
Corey
7:15
just before the election, uh, and she gave the leadership back to David Swan just to go full circle on that. And the liberals were, um, almost entirely wiped out. David Swan won his seat. in the next election and they were wiped out in subsequent elections it was um it
Corey
7:28
was kind of the death of the alberta liberal party it
Corey
7:31
it was a really wild time for the liberals ross sherman got a bit of a reputation for being erratic i think it's fair to say making a lot of accusations that he couldn't back up um
Corey
7:42
and uh you know a over
Corey
7:45
over over a beer or 12 i might have my own stories about ross sherman and his approaches to politics but your
Corey
7:50
your point zane is here he is again and now he's decided he wants to run for the ucp leadership so he's decided he's he wants to run for the ucp leadership so you heard me say he was in the pcs had a falling out with the pcs joined the liberals was the leader of the liberal party and then bailed on the liberal party so anything here make you think that they're thinking this is a great camp
Corey
8:13
this is a reasonable person carter
Zain
8:15
carter he jumps around like you um hey
Corey
8:17
hey hold on hey first of all i think both of us are deeply offended by that second of all both
Corey
8:24
important thing that i want to throw on the table here is so
Corey
8:27
so he put his hand up and said he wants to run for the ucp leadership yes he did not have a membership in the ucp and
Corey
8:33
and one of the requirements you'll recall us talking about was that you have a membership six months before this
Corey
8:39
this contest right yeah
Corey
8:42
they gave michelle rempel garner a hard time on this who's a sitting conservative mp unsurprisingly this same committee decided not not to let Rod Sherman run for the leadership.
Corey
8:54
And today he announced he is running for the leadership of the UCP.
Zain
8:58
Carter. Okay. So Corey, that's great context. Carter, I'm sorry if that offended you.
Carter
9:04
you're not sorry if that offended me. That's your job. That's what you do on this podcast. It's
Zain
9:08
It's what I do. I've just, I'm just reflecting.
Carter
9:09
Thank God I have an enormous ego.
Zain
9:12
That you can withstand that. Well, tell me Carter, talk
Zain
9:15
talk to me about Rod Sherman. Talk to me about 2022 Rod Sherman, right? So this guy's a doctor,
Zain
9:19
emergency room physician, oh yeah
Corey
9:21
said nothing of his bio but yeah yeah
Zain
9:23
yeah yeah you know for
Zain
9:24
for for some background like seems like a you know credible physician um you
Zain
9:32
carter you know i want to get into the story of why politicians come back let me ask you the more specific question why do you think ross sherman is coming back
Carter
9:39
let me tell you something ross sherman is the kind of emergency room doctor that makes you drive to calgary when you're really really seriously gravely ill
Zain
9:46
that's a shitty thing to say
Carter
9:51
Raj was not a great politician and Corey is
Carter
9:56
being very polite Raj was erratic to the extreme the fact
Carter
10:00
fact that he won the liberal leadership Corey
Carter
10:03
Corey is saying it is because of his folk hero status I
Carter
10:07
I say it was because of Corey's cockamamie scheme to have everybody and their dog sign up to become a member and
Carter
10:13
and raj just was better at it than everybody else um anyways
Carter
10:18
he he for him to launch his campaign today uh knowing that the party has actually said no
Carter
10:25
no basically what he's done is he's gone to um
Carter
10:28
um his ex-girlfriend's house after his ex-girlfriend has thrown him out of the house and he said i'm moving back in and he's brought a brocade of roses uh red roses her favorite color is blue you
Carter
10:40
know this is what the guy has done so
Carter
10:42
so he brings his red truck show
Corey
10:43
show up with a red truck he brings
Carter
10:45
brings his red truck to the party and then and he covers the red truck with uh with some sort of um with you know he covers the red truck with uh some well his stickers his
Zain
10:57
it with his face carter he covers with a lot of versions of his face it
Carter
11:01
it was you know he he you
Carter
11:04
you know it's It's one thing to try to put a pressure on a campaign to say, you know, I know I don't meet your criteria, but I'm launching anyways. But when someone has said to you, no, don't come to my house with your red truck and don't bring me flowers, you are now an official stalker. And that's what he is. This is he is a he's a stalker.
Zain
11:24
Do you agree with this analysis? Well, I mean, because I don't want to disparage Raj Sherman for an entire episode. That's a different. No, I'm not.
Corey
11:33
Why the hell not? why because what's the relevance but almost that's the point you know it's yeah yeah
Corey
11:38
yeah i can't i i am struck by so a couple things i carter's
Corey
11:42
carter's metaphor is colorful i will confess i was sitting there most of the day trying to think of a metaphor because this is the craziest situation i the one i sort of landed on is it'd be like me announcing i'm running for president of the united states not eligible nobody
Corey
11:55
nobody should take me seriously and part of me is just absolutely gobsmacked that the media is reporting it so credulously like there's an article in the the Herald about it. There's an article on CBC about it.
Corey
12:06
Why? The guy is not actually running for anything. All he did was buy stickers and put them on a truck.
Corey
12:11
It's fucking crazy to me. I
Zain
12:13
I just want to ask you, should we be running for something? Because if Stricker's on a truck, I feel like some of that Patreon cash could make for some very nice stickers.
Carter
12:21
This is a great opportunity just to remind people that Zane Velji for leader posters are available. available and and he has the exact same probability of winning the ucp leadership so legitimately higher
Zain
12:35
say here's what i'll say if anyone wants to put together a hundred person media event with zane for leader events i'll attend okay i will attend i
Zain
12:43
i will step in front of that podium and i will announce whatever
Corey
12:46
whatever you need to announce
Corey
12:47
okay we'll do that zane and so you've made a commitment that you're going to deeply regret i will announce whatever they need a
Zain
12:52
a hundred people and if if there's at least two mainstream media outlets i will show up and then you will tell me what i'm running for and i'll announce it i'll do it so
Corey
12:59
so i'm happy to do
Corey
13:00
yeah service i provide so
Corey
13:02
so this this idea that ross sherman is going to run for leader of the ucp a position he's been told he's not allowed to run for you
Corey
13:08
you asked for maybe uh you know not to just slag the guy and give a charitable run it seems like he is trying to he's
Corey
13:14
he's trying to create a groundswell where
Corey
13:17
where all of a sudden they have to reverse their decision i can't tell you how impossible that is it's
Corey
13:22
it's just not going to happen there's just no way there's no scenario under which this happens. Zero scenario, zero scenario. Nobody's going to say you got to get the liberal to run.
Corey
13:29
Ross Sherman said that he talked to 10 MLAs. He gave the number 10 MLAs who said he should be allowed to run.
Corey
13:35
Well, I ran that through my Ross Sherman translator calculator. I've come up with the actual number being zero, maybe
Corey
13:41
maybe even negative one. Former MLAs probably told him he can't do it too.
Corey
13:46
And and yet here we are and here it is. And here's the conversation. And I think we can look forward to this sideshow. And that's unfortunate because there is serious
Corey
13:54
serious candidates dates in the race here and also um
Corey
13:57
i don't think it's good to indulge him on this or sort of feed it the man needs better hobbies would be my my baseline observation carter
Zain
14:05
carter can i make
Corey
14:05
make your point yeah
Corey
14:07
sorry your point is a good one some people just can't quit the game they
Corey
14:11
they can't quit the game and
Zain
14:12
and carter it's almost like they can't quit the game even if it means they're gonna indulge in cringe-worthy moments like
Zain
14:19
like i suspect for like rod sherman today was being roasted on twitter and twitter isn't the universe this podcast isn't the electorate right most people have never heard of raj sherman and if they have they've forgotten it maybe
Zain
14:29
that's a humbling message for him in some ways perhaps a good message after today but there's
Zain
14:34
there's something to be said that like there's
Zain
14:36
there's these weird you remember the early days american idol and maybe they still did it but they brought those singers on that you know couldn't sing and they were so confident in themselves and then you would just do it for the humiliation like they put they were on tv because of that i
Carter
14:49
kind of that's where i met some of these cory the first time well
Zain
14:51
well i i mean yeah
Carter
14:55
yeah i'll tell you something if we were allowed to continue we would have kicked jacob horgan's at or what if i would have won their
Carter
15:01
yeah wow we would we would have won what
Zain
15:03
what happened to kalen porter i guess that's the question what happened to kalen porter um
Zain
15:09
yeah that's that's a deep cut you think that's
Carter
15:10
that's a deep cut none of us know that carter
Zain
15:12
carter carter like there's cringeworthy moments and i think sherman's one was one today but despite the cringeworthy moments. Let's get started on this convo.
Zain
15:20
Why is it that some of these folks can't quit? Is it lack of self-awareness? Is it just insulating themselves in a bubble? Is it unfinished business?
Zain
15:29
Give me your take. You've experienced this with candidates that probably every time there's an opening, they call Stephen Carter.
Zain
15:35
Tell me about those phone calls. What are they saying? Are they pitching you? Are they trying to motivate themselves? Let's get into this conversation. is it?
Carter
15:41
Well, I mean, I think what it is, is that, you know, everybody's waiting to be asked to run for something. Right. And some people never hear it. Right. Like you can ask some people. And I think that this is why we have the ask her type of thing. Right. Because when you ask a woman to run, it takes multiple times to ask her.
Carter
16:00
And that ask her idea is the right play because it takes more than one time.
Carter
16:06
people hear their name mentioned once and they are in. I'm going to run for sure. And then some people hear themselves negatively mentioned seven times and then they go, I absolutely need to be in this race.
Carter
16:20
And part of that is that there are people around these candidates from time to time who push people into running. I think our friend Kent Hare ran into to that when he ran for mayor in
Carter
16:30
in this last election he had people around him who were pushing him to put you know put his name back in they spun a tale of how he could be a factor in the race um that wasn't really true um but you
Carter
16:44
you know there raj
Carter
16:46
raj sherman is the type of person who hears himself in every story cory said you know he talked to 10 mlas and in sherman math he hadn't talked to any.
Carter
16:55
That's the type of he is convinced that
Carter
16:58
that someone said that this is a stunt, that
Carter
17:00
that he's running as a stunt. He's not running as a stunt.
Carter
17:03
He is running because he is 100 percent convinced that
Carter
17:06
that he could be a better premier than anybody else the UCP is putting up forward. And
Carter
17:12
And this becoming the leader of the conservative, the United Conservative Party, is the easiest way to become the premier.
Zain
17:19
How is it that folks that are so perhaps skilled or, you know, whose job it is to read the pulse of a province or a caucus or a room can
Zain
17:28
can be so tone
Zain
17:30
tone deaf, can perhaps misread what the size of the opportunity is and their viability for that opportunity.
Zain
17:37
We don't just see this with folks that can't quit, but especially with folks that can't quit.
Zain
17:42
It rarely comes from a sense of strength.
Zain
17:44
strength. They rarely come back from a sense of, oh,
Zain
17:47
oh, this country needs me and I'm going to swoop to a major victory. We may have seen a couple historical examples of that but
Zain
17:52
but it largely is hey man you overstayed your welcome last time what the fuck are you doing back here now yeah
Corey
17:58
yeah well look i mean there's there's there's so many answers i could give to you here and maybe we can unpack a few of them yeah let's do it the first and most obvious is we're
Corey
18:07
we're all heroes in our own narrative they
Corey
18:08
they think they have something to offer they think they're better than who's there they think they meet the moment they met the moment at one point why can't they meet the moment again there's
Corey
18:17
there's rarely an appreciation for how there has to be be an alignment of the stars just for you even to be considered as a politician in the first place? Are you the right age? Are you in the right riding? Do you have the right political views to be relevant? You know, it's really quite
Corey
18:31
quite a matter of fate to begin with here. And once it's gone for you once, it's sort of like you
Corey
18:37
you win the lottery. I don't think you stop buying lottery tickets. You start to think those odds look a little bit better.
Corey
18:43
The other thing is it provides provides
Corey
18:46
you know relevance like i knew perennial candidates who ran in ridings they couldn't win and
Corey
18:51
it became their opportunity every four years to say you
Corey
18:54
you all got to listen to me and i get to go around and i get to talk to the media and i have to do these things and it sort of ties into the you
Corey
19:00
you know in many ways what i think is the fundamental answer here is
Corey
19:04
and it's that there's nothing like it your ability to be heard if
Corey
19:08
if you're in government your ability to change things. The issues are huge. The spotlight is glaring.
Corey
19:13
People love you just because of the color of your shirt. They hold you up on a pedestal.
Corey
19:18
It's so insanely addictive. It feels so important.
Corey
19:23
And normal life just seems duller after you've done it.
Corey
19:26
Ross Sherman, seven years of clocking in and out in the emergency room.
Corey
19:31
I bet he'd tell you in an honest moment. It's a highly respected position, right? Right.
Corey
19:35
Yeah. Do you think even the adrenaline that that carries captures sort of the moment of being on
Corey
19:40
on the front page of the newspaper every day for a week? Like Ross Sherman was in the past. Yeah.
Corey
19:45
Yeah. And and a lot of people are just chasing that high day in, day out. They're junkies. I mean, I'll confess, like I go through the same withdrawal just having been in government at senior
Corey
19:56
senior levels. You know, the
Corey
19:58
you're dealing with normal issues,
Corey
19:59
issues, you can't sit there and or help, but sit there and think, fuck.
Corey
20:03
i was i was working on matters of state you
Corey
20:05
you know two years ago and
Corey
20:09
that's tough that can be tough carter
Zain
20:11
carter talk to me about the high and is it a high just felt by uh probably all candidates or is it felt by you know i'm gonna ask you like
Zain
20:19
like by you uh
Zain
20:21
uh when you kind of go from no i i want to get personal i mean if i can like if like is this part and parcel of why you do what you do carter yeah
Carter
20:29
yeah i mean the sensible thing is to be cory go
Carter
20:32
go into a nice cushy job work you know 47 hours a week instead of you
Carter
20:38
you know 27 that i work and um you know your
Corey
20:43
your metaphor is breaking yeah it's really breaking down you
Carter
20:46
you know have a boss that has that tells you what to do and when to do it i
Carter
20:51
i could really get into that no the high is unbelievable and in fact uh steve Steve Paikin wrote a couple, you know, two spectacular books. I've recommended them before. And one is called The Life and the other one is called The Dark Side. But
Carter
21:05
But The Life explains why
Carter
21:07
why people are attracted to it. It is unbelievably, you know, it is super duper important work, first of all. And secondly, man,
Carter
21:17
man, you are everything. You are everything. And then The Dark Side takes that and says, OK, well, what happens afterwards? towards. So
Carter
21:24
So even people who have been major
Carter
21:27
major players, after they are unelected, after they are gone, they
Carter
21:33
they don't even matter anymore. The phone stops ringing. I've been in this situation a number of times, right? You're working a campaign, your phone is ringing 24-7, campaign's over, you're not hired, it's gone.
Carter
21:47
out it goes, right? So that's the downside of it. And the favorability,
Carter
21:55
favorability, the excitement that comes from being the guy is unbelievable. There
Carter
22:00
There is nothing like it. And I
Carter
22:02
I remember walking out of my office when I was chief of staff to Redford, and
Carter
22:06
and there are six cabinet ministers lined up in these chairs down the hallway in
Carter
22:11
in the premier's office waiting to see me.
Carter
22:13
And I'm like, that
Carter
22:15
adrenaline rush, that moment
Carter
22:17
moment of this is amazing. amazing uh even though every person that's in there is bringing you a problem um yeah nor like how many people get to sit with
Carter
22:25
with six cabinet ministers in a day and
Carter
22:28
and i'm like how
Carter
22:29
how much of that is like trying
Zain
22:31
trying to chase to you know share what you feel comfortable with but like trying to chase to get back to a version of that moment well
Carter
22:37
well i think that my challenge is that i'm i chase the election night victory too right
Carter
22:42
right it's not just that you know the election night victory is my my drug. And I still look at not just the election night victory, but
Carter
22:50
but I look at the tactics and the techniques that we use in elections. And I am fascinated. I
Carter
22:55
I mean, every single time I
Carter
22:58
I get an opportunity to talk about, you know, the book I've never written, you know, the the the
Carter
23:02
the tyranny of the less engaged.
Carter
23:04
I just I'm so excited about it because, you
Carter
23:07
you know, most of the time you
Carter
23:09
you don't find this when you're trying to sell washing machines, right,
Carter
23:12
right, or vitamin packs or whatever the hell you're trying to sell.
Carter
23:16
It's just not the same as everybody's going to buy on one day and
Carter
23:20
and they have to buy your product, the next guy's product, and the next guy's product. And someone's going to walk away the big winner and everybody else is going to be the big loser. So that high, I mean, I've been chasing it really
Carter
23:31
really since 1997. And I
Carter
23:34
I mean, I didn't even win until 2000. So, you know, it takes, you know, Corey has never won. So it takes zero. remotely
Zain
23:41
look at that zero i'm just not the reason i if i seem distracted i'm just looking at it and it's zero it is zero wins yeah yeah
Zain
23:48
he's chasing it but he hasn't gotten it um chasing that dragon yep or is
Corey
23:52
is it more than that okay the high is i get the high and
Zain
23:55
and i think all of us have felt like three of us who worked
Zain
23:58
worked in this space and even found versions of it i would guess in our corporate world or try to manufacture engineer elements of it with like milestones and other things because we're just programmed that way for binary outcomes and who's the opponent and what what does victory look like and contextualizing all that. I
Zain
24:13
I get that. I get that from a practitioner's perspective, political practitioner. I get that from a politician's perspective was even more in the spotlight.
Zain
24:20
What else is there, Corey? Like talk to me about the other layers of this said onion.
Corey
24:24
Yeah. Well, I think you've also got to look at the first thing I talked about, which is this idea that they think they have something to offer. So let's not, let's
Corey
24:33
let's not entirely put it down to addiction here.
Corey
24:36
When you look at Jean Charest, who you mentioned,
Corey
24:39
at one point, he's
Corey
24:41
he's looking around and saying, this isn't the Conservative Party that I want. I think I, based on my background and
Corey
24:47
my strong history with the Conservative Party, can
Corey
24:49
can be the leader. When
Corey
24:51
you think about Brian Jean, when you think about Daniel Smith, same deal. This is not the vision of a United Conservative Party that I shared.
Corey
24:57
And when you think even about
Corey
25:00
Prentice, he came back from banking. He was Federal Cabinet Minister and he came back because
Corey
25:06
because he thought that the province had lost its way or they just needed some sensible banker approach to it.
Corey
25:13
Look in the mirror and everything will be fixed, I suppose.
Corey
25:17
thing I think you got to keep in mind, and it's tied to the addiction, but it's separate from the addiction, is you don't become a politician without a certain amount of arrogance that you know the right answer in
Corey
25:31
notion that you're going to sit there and even on just a local level be like, this is riding 130,000 people. Yeah, I'm the best person here. Like I'm the person who needs to represent these folks is pretty fucking wild when you think about it. And
Corey
25:43
And when you accelerate that to a province of four and a half million to a country of 40 million, almost even
Corey
25:49
even crazier still, like it requires like this utter confidence that you know what to do, or
Corey
25:55
or else you never take the first step into politics in the first place. so of course you're going to continue to have that confidence moving forward that doesn't get shaken with one election loss you can tell yourselves all sorts of stories about why that may have occurred you can talk about lincoln and how many elections he lost fuck how many times have we all heard that story right
Corey
26:13
and it's just becomes a way um
Corey
26:17
it's that hero narrative i was talking about that it's the part where the hero falls but the the
Corey
26:21
the end of the story and the triumphant victory is still ahead yeah
Zain
26:25
carter talk to me about this react to what cory said Well,
Carter
26:27
I love the, you know, there's 125,000 people. I mean, another way of looking at it is you're at McMahon Stadium.
Carter
26:36
the announcer says, we need someone to please, you know, coordinate and make sure that everybody agrees on this stuff. And you're the one who puts up your hand and walks down to the center of the field and puts yourself in the center of the field and says, I am now going to be your leader.
Carter
26:50
And I will take you where you need to go. No, that is, that is unbelievable arrogance. And, um, but it's the arrogance that is required for the position. If you do not have that.
Zain
27:03
that. And socially acceptable arrogance, right? Like we, in fact, like a lot of our world is to find people arrogant
Zain
27:08
arrogant enough or to convince them that they should be arrogant enough to be that person in five football stadiums to get up and say, fucking me.
Carter
27:17
That's the, that's, that's the chore of recruitment, right? The, the, the, The chore of recruitment is, you know, you, you and only you have a special voice. And I've had the special voice conversation with
Carter
27:32
with tons of politicians. You've got the. What
Carter
27:34
do you mean by that?
Carter
27:36
You've got the special voice that people need to hear right now.
Carter
27:40
They need to hear from you. They need that. You know, you're the one who captures this moment, this zeitgeist at this time.
Carter
27:47
no one else has this particular voice. And that's the recruiting video. And the ones you fail with, don't
Carter
27:56
don't believe you. And
Carter
27:57
And the ones you succeed with, they
Carter
27:59
they know they've got the special voice.
Zain
28:01
So, Carter, can I, and Corey, I want to go to you in a second, but let me not challenge that point, but ask you about the opposite. Tell
Zain
28:07
Tell me what you think these Raj Sherman conversations were like, right? Because he probably called a lot of people, a lot of people he trusted, a lot of people who had a sense of the pulse of Alberta politics.
Zain
28:18
Do you think they just gave him the special voice talk, or
Zain
28:21
or do you feel like he gave it to them? So then how did it end up? Like, there's elements of this that I find really interesting, like how someone can't see through.
Zain
28:30
So, I mean, in Raj's case, like he's not even able and allowed to run, yet he's doing it anyways for the sugar high of what probably today was as well in the launch. So talk to me about that. Like there's a fundamental human condition here that I think I'd like to explore. yeah
Carter
28:43
so you know how when cory and i reach out to you and ask if you're available to record each night right it's
Carter
28:48
no and you say no i can't do it tonight but cory and i are stupid enough to go okay what time um
Carter
28:55
um we just we hear what we want to hear with you because we know that you're gonna say no i can't do it tonight i'm busy i've got you know um whatever it is you do on on a regular either night i don't understand i do i
Zain
29:07
i do uh islam five nights a week so you eat
Carter
29:10
eat you eat dinner later than any other human being i can't do it tonight at 9 30 because i've
Carter
29:16
i've got to eat dinner um
Carter
29:18
um that appears to be your standard but we
Carter
29:20
we don't hear those words from you we we push through it raj sherman here you know so if raj actually did call me and
Carter
29:32
did he say i'm like no
Carter
29:34
no and then i didn't call him back ever again because i don't what do you mean
Zain
29:38
mean you picked up and you said no no you didn't pick up i
Carter
29:41
picked up the first time i didn't pick up the second third or fourth times um
Carter
29:46
um because i don't want to you know like he's going to hear what he's going to hear he's not going
Zain
29:50
going to hear the words you say but you did you didn't want to let him but you also didn't want to set him straight you didn't want to truth talk no no no i try the setting
Corey
29:57
setting straight he wouldn't zane
Corey
29:59
is not a raj thing this is this is what i'm trying to talk about we talk about that so when carter was talking about that arrogance and how you can give them the pitch and the people who already feel it are like yes of course well i'm glad somebody finally recognizes it right if
Corey
30:13
if you are wired a certain way you
Corey
30:15
you are going to you are going to you
Corey
30:18
you know and some of it's a bit delusional but you hear what you want to hear I
Corey
30:21
can't tell you how many people have called me over the years and said, well, I'm thinking of running. What do you think?
Corey
30:27
And I say, nicely, I don't think you should in some way, shape or form,
Corey
30:31
right? You need to consider X, Y, and Z.
Corey
30:33
They don't hear any of that. What they hear is the way I tee it up. You know, Raj Sherman, he heard, Raj,
Corey
30:39
Raj, you're great, but, and then 30 reasons why he shouldn't do it. He left that call thinking, they think I'm great.
Carter
30:46
got to get through
Corey
30:47
And it's not a Raj thing. It's not a Raj thing. This
Corey
30:50
This is the selective hearing that people bring to these conversations.
Corey
30:54
When these call arounds happen, they are not about actually canvassing for opinions. It's
Corey
30:59
It's validating the opinions they already have. and
Zain
31:02
perhaps an ego in
Corey
31:03
in a sense as
Corey
31:04
man i know candidates who have called 30
Corey
31:08
30 people 30s and exaggerators 10 people the first nine tell them don't do it the
Corey
31:12
the 10th says i think you should do it they're gonna do it because they heard somebody who said they should right right
Zain
31:17
one person in their corner that they got yeah
Carter
31:19
yeah i mean i fucking i'll
Corey
31:20
i'll bet you some of them are listening right now and could probably see themselves in this i want you to know you're not not alone.
Corey
31:25
I've heard many candidates do this, but
Corey
31:29
you need to run manifests
Corey
31:31
manifests in this way. And by the way, to Carter's point, our
Corey
31:34
our system kind of doesn't work without that arrogance. You can't be paralyzed with inaction. You've got
Corey
31:39
to be willing to move forward on these things. You are the catalyst in the system. It's the public service's job to rein you in and say, that's
Corey
31:45
that's nuts. Let's move a little slower. We can't do that or whatever. Can't do it. Can't do it on that timeline. And you need the politicians being lunatics saying, got to be done, got to be done. We got to do it now.
Zain
31:55
Carter, you know, talk to me about this. Tell me if there's any merit in what I'm about to say, which is, do
Zain
32:00
do you think part of this is politicians realizing that at least in the modern age,
Zain
32:08
either means a lot less or is a lot harder to actually stick the
Zain
32:15
the landing on? So that if you're someone who's left and
Zain
32:18
you're like, well, I wrapped the bow on that, realize
Zain
32:21
realize realize, 36 hours, 36 months, three years later, they forgot you, that
Zain
32:27
that they don't remember about you. They have no idea, new generation, or just, who the hell are you? I don't remember. You're just a footnote, and you thought you were going to be a chapter in history. What part of it is that, that legacy, especially in our social media, highly driven, everything is disposable very quickly world, is
Zain
32:44
is that if you're not producing content, they forget about you, kind of like the rules of social, one might argue, and in a modern marketing context. What do you think of that?
Carter
32:51
Yeah, I mean, I think that that's part of it. But I think that the, keep
Carter
32:55
keep in mind that they're not coming back to solve other, you know, long problems long ago solved. They
Carter
33:01
They think they're coming back to solve, you
Carter
33:03
you know, the immediate problems. They know the answer. Roger Sherman, I
Carter
33:07
I guarantee you, knows
Carter
33:09
knows the answer of what needs to be done in the Canadian healthcare system.
Carter
33:13
And that's what he's going to tell you. I know what needs to be done.
Carter
33:16
And if I can just be premier, everybody will see how
Carter
33:19
how we can fix things. um
Carter
33:20
um you know but i think we've actually seen uh
Carter
33:24
uh historically that some of the worst cabinet ministers are the ones that have tremendous expertise in the area because
Carter
33:28
because they're not trying to be cabinet ministers at that point they're trying to be direct um deputy ministers and yeah
Carter
33:35
they're different jobs and um you
Carter
33:38
you know i don't know that people i think that people chase glory but i'm not sure they chase legacy uh
Carter
33:42
uh and i think that those two things are different legacy is actually working really hard to create something that's going to last past um i
Carter
33:50
i think that glory is fleeting and that's ultimately what people tend to try and chase
Zain
33:55
that's an interesting differentiation i appreciate that carter core do you want to react to that before i move on here oh
Corey
34:01
i agree that's that's where the high comes from yeah when you think about
Corey
34:03
legacy you think about durable things that will not be undone by the next people yeah that actually often lends to moving not as quickly yeah
Corey
34:11
building consensuses not having these big clashes of civilization it's the difference between being a heavyweight boxer who's having having half the crowd cheering for you and the adrenaline that comes with that.
Corey
34:22
And, you know, being at a local planning meeting, trying to build a consensus, right. There's, there's not glory in the second, but there is legacy because it's more likely that it will be sustained in that context.
Corey
34:32
So, you know, if
Corey
34:34
tied to that is of course, the notion all glory is fleeting. So that
Corey
34:39
politicians, they can't just rest on glory. They need to chase the next glory, which
Corey
34:43
which again, brings them back into this contest again and again. And you see this also, the
Corey
34:47
the extreme manifestations, Zayn, is them running again. But
Corey
34:50
But you also see this when they just opine
Corey
34:52
opine all of a sudden, 20 years after
Carter
34:54
after the fact. Preston fucking Manning.
Corey
35:02
throwing their voice back in. Maybe even people you thought pretty fondly of. And you're like, what the fuck are you doing? To the point about the person needs to meet the moment. You
Corey
35:10
You may have been the person for the moment in 1994.
Corey
35:13
What are you doing talking again in 2021? right uh about these things is it really are you that desperate to solve all of our problems and the answer is yes yes they are cory
Zain
35:24
cory i'm going to stick with you on this you know uh rush sherman did not call you
Zain
35:28
we started with rush we've
Zain
35:29
we've gone into the broader context of why politicians just can't certain politicians just can't leave if
Zain
35:35
if rush would have called you what would you have told them honestly like and what do you think the limits of what you could have told them would have been in those conversations like take me into that call you know him well you may have been on on his call lists called income what would you have told him yeah
Corey
35:49
two things the first thing i would have thought this is a really bad idea right
Corey
35:52
right you would have thought
Corey
35:53
or said sorry i so i'll tell you what i would have said after i would have thought because they're not the same because
Corey
35:59
because i think you would have needed to take a slightly different approach from just giving the opinions that may have given him gotten his back up on things i would have thought you
Corey
36:06
you know i didn't i don't think i saw raj sherman from about 2012 until 2016 or so and i had lunch with him up in edmonton yeah
Corey
36:14
and i remember thinking he looks great he looks relaxed he looks calm he's talking about the things he's doing he's talking about the great things his kid is doing with you know creating movies and yeah like a legitimately at ease human being
Corey
36:29
that you know that had it had it all again right he was he was back doing his health care thing he had a couple of side hustles raj always has a million side hustles i think he's
Corey
36:38
he's he's a super he's always got a twinkle in his eye he's a super affable person there's a reason why people like him i always joke people who knew him well there's like a raj sherman valley you you meet him at the edge of the valley and you think oh this guy's okay you get to know him a little more and you're like oh my god who is this man and you go into the depths of the valley then you sort of come out again because ultimately like there's just like a mirthfulness and the cheerfulness kind of nice um
Corey
37:02
um i remember thinking everything
Corey
37:04
everything looked great you know and maybe it wasn't and maybe putting
Corey
37:07
putting on airs but he seemed legitimately content i
Corey
37:10
i guess is what i would say and
Corey
37:12
then i think about the times during the election where he did not seem legitimately where he seemed on
Zain
37:20
edge of madness where
Corey
37:21
where you know the emotions were overcoming him in the fourth week there was this moment where he had an event he was going to he was not in a great headspace he went he ignored script he just started talking it was it was nonsense
Corey
37:33
nonsense the uh the reporter at the time i
Corey
37:37
can't remember who it was but they from the edmonton journal they
Corey
37:42
on the online version that was so crazy i'm just going to print verbatim the entire thing that he said and they let the online one be like the thousands of words that raj said and
Corey
37:51
and then in the print version it got tightened down to something that seemed less crazy but still a little bit wild and i think about that man and i I think that was not a man.
Corey
37:58
think that was a man who who was
Corey
38:00
was finding himself at odds with all a lot of people around him who was under a lot of pressure.
Corey
38:05
And I don't want that for him as a human being. And I don't think the province needs Raj Sherman's voice at this moment. So
Corey
38:11
So that would be what I was thinking.
Corey
38:13
What I would tell
Corey
38:14
tell him was, Raj,
Corey
38:17
you're too good for this. You you you weren't treated right by the people of Alberta before. for, you know, that abuse is not necessary and it's not that you need to be a martyr for these things. You've got better things to do and there's better ways you can help the system. Your voice will help it more from the outside as a healthcare professional with
Zain
38:33
with M&S Grease. You
Corey
38:35
You know, I would be thinking about it not in terms of here's the barriers that are in front of you, Raj, then he can just think I'll just jump over them because I'm fucking Superman, right?
Corey
38:44
I would be saying the things you want to do, you can do better with
Corey
38:47
with less pain for yourself,
Corey
38:48
not doing this. And that was the approach I would take. Do
Zain
38:51
Do you think it would have worked, Corey? Do you think it would have dissuaded him in
Corey
38:54
sense? No, candidly, I don't. I
Corey
38:56
I don't because, you
Corey
38:57
you know, I didn't know he called Carter, but I know a
Corey
39:00
a half dozen people he called trying to get the band back together, all sorts of random conversations.
Corey
39:07
you know, unless I was called one, I wouldn't have stood a chance.
Corey
39:11
I wasn't going to be called one.
Zain
39:12
Carter, I want to, I want to, I
Zain
39:14
I contrast this if I can, but it's not the most, you know, straightforward
Zain
39:17
straightforward example, but there it's a recent news story with John Horgan.
Zain
39:24
And of course he's not leaving simply to be like, Oh, I'm leaving on a high note, but in some ways with
Zain
39:29
with his health, et cetera, he is leaving on his own terms. If I can put it that way.
Zain
39:33
Contrast is broader. And we'll get into the John Horgan conversation in a second, but maybe on this point of transition between politicians
Zain
39:39
politicians who stay too long and politicians who kind of find the sweet spot sometimes forced and perhaps his sense to find the sweet spot of when to leave give
Zain
39:47
give me your take on on perhaps those two contrasting tales of of politicians i
Carter
39:52
i think that all too many people just leave too late um it
Carter
39:57
it is way too easy to leave too late there is no real structure in place um
Carter
40:02
um you know there's no you
Carter
40:04
you don't have people that you can go to that you can trust your friends are all gone um because because you don't have friends when you're the premier in the same way that you used to have friends. Um, your friends all want something from you now.
Carter
40:17
And so they're not going to give you the truth, right? It's time for you to move on is
Carter
40:21
is something that's not
Carter
40:23
not uttered nearly enough. Um,
Carter
40:24
Um, it's certainly not uttered, um,
Carter
40:26
um, by the people who are close to you because those people are all, you
Carter
40:32
everybody there is making their living off of you. They all have to get new jobs when you go uh
Carter
40:36
uh john horgan's uh stepping down you
Carter
40:40
well as much as we predicted it a couple weeks ago hey cory you and i both predicted that as i recall yeah
Zain
40:48
so many predictions i don't even fucking know which ones are true anymore so i'm just gonna go with yeah sure carter you made a prediction it was
Carter
40:54
was cory and i together i mean i don't want to just take the amount
Zain
40:58
amount of cory and i in your statement implies that you did not make the prediction okay
Carter
41:03
okay well i see that now Now, um, I, I shouldn't have shared, I shouldn't have shared the credit anyways. Um, most people like he, he was sick. He had a scare. Uh, it sounds like, I hope that he's okay. Uh, you know, no one, no one wishes ill on anybody. Um, but
Carter
41:23
took that moment to take his walk in the snow. And why do we even say the words walk in the snow? Right.
Carter
41:28
Right. We, we say those words because of, of what Pierre Trudeau, you know, did, uh, all those those years ago when he went for his walk and then he came back and
Corey
41:37
and then he came back
Zain
41:39
that's another good example that
Zain
41:40
that is one where he came back and they embraced him but carter keep going on well did we embrace him we embrace him for
Carter
41:45
for that moment only because joe kind of proved
Carter
41:47
proved us to prove to us that it wasn't the best option but um
Carter
41:51
um you know this is it's
Carter
41:53
it's hard it's super hard to leave at the top of your game uh it's like a it's like a professional athlete um
Carter
41:59
um being able to retire at the right time you
Carter
42:01
you know i'm sure michael jordan's one of michael jordan's retirements was right um
Carter
42:05
um i just don't know which one well
Carter
42:07
well probably the first one um
Carter
42:09
but where would the wizards be without him hey cory right
Zain
42:12
oh my goodness where would they have had that 500 season cory uh
Zain
42:16
uh where would they have had that 500 season with michael jordan scoring 19 points a game on 41 shooting uh cory talk
Zain
42:25
talk to me about um talk
Zain
42:26
talk to me about the horgan comparison well we'll talk about the political fortunes of the ndp and bc in a second but this
Zain
42:32
this transition from politicians who kind of leave on a high note when they've still perhaps got capital. They've still perhaps still got,
Zain
42:40
you know, the good graces of the electorate versus those that make iterative comebacks.
Corey
42:48
Well, you know, I think we do have to observe how rare it is for a politician to leave on a high note. Often they are run out of town and we just start thinking about them more fondly afterwards.
Corey
42:57
And when we think about the ones that leave on a high note, um a
Corey
43:01
lot of the time it's tied to a tragedy right or a death or or something like that so a milder
Corey
43:13
wiped him out he
Corey
43:14
doesn't feel he has the energy to do it he's leaving right
Corey
43:17
that's not a situation of his own choosing it's not as though he and cancer got together and said this is a good time for me to quit this is the circumstance put upon him
Corey
43:25
You think about FDR, always does very well on lists of U.S. presidents, died in office.
Corey
43:31
You think about JFK, I'm looking at a poll, 2021 Gallup poll, president since World War II, right?
Corey
43:38
Who do you think is going to go down, like rate them outstanding above average average? JFK is the top of that list.
Corey
43:45
You look at his policies, and there are a couple of things that I think you might point to and say those are okay, but pretty mediocre policy record. record most of the things that he gets credit for lbj actually did after him he
Corey
43:55
he doesn't by the way do particularly well on those polls died
Corey
43:59
died in office tragic people think about him uh in a certain way and that's that's
Corey
44:05
that's sort of the nature of the business it's like that old line from that you know the dark knight right you stay long enough to be the villain a lot of the time and
Zain
44:12
and love that love that move uh that line from dave yeah of course yeah you
Corey
44:15
you know and there's a lot of of um there's
Corey
44:18
there's a lot of the the inherent disease of politics that feeds this you you become more insular you're surrounded more and more with people who buy into this cult of who you are and to step away from it is is very difficult is very difficult talk
Zain
44:30
talk to me about this carter brings up a really fascinating point which is like
Zain
44:34
like can we count the number of politicians who've left on a high note with capital uh political and otherwise social capital uh still in the tank and why do we not see that more when a lot of what they're chasing you said glory but is also in part legacy is in part to be remembered for what they've done but they just get run out of town and they've washed away or wiped away any chance of that like explain to me that tension though let
Zain
45:03
let me jump in there zane
Corey
45:03
zane yeah you put your finger on something when
Corey
45:07
when glory is no longer on the table that's when politicians start caring about legacy oh
Corey
45:13
it's when they're no longer popular or they're not able to run again for whatever reasons term limits in the united states yeah then they turn their attention to legacy but
Corey
45:21
but glory is always their first love
Carter
45:24
yeah i mean there's no end to the things that need to be done right like you know when i was a kid i used to think well why do we have to keep passing all these bills why do we why
Carter
45:33
why do we need new laws all the time i mean the organ you know the country was was operating yesterday why do do we need 37 new laws in the next term?
Carter
45:42
reason is because, you know, we break things. We have to fix things. We have to fix, you know, the economy. We have to fix, like, there is never a moment in time when you go, oh, we got this. Everything is finally working the way we imagined it.
Carter
45:56
There is, you know, that's why election days are so much what I'm drawn to, right? It is the day you point to and say, this is the thing.
Carter
46:05
But you don't win an election and then just quit.
Carter
46:08
Right. You win an election and now you have to start doing things. And that's the chasing of the glory.
Carter
46:12
Right. You have to do things that are going to be remembered as great.
Carter
46:18
even the politicians that we do remember well. And in Alberta, there's two that really stand out for me, Ralph Klein and
Carter
46:25
Peter Lougheed at the end of his term was being chased out by his caucus, being chased out by the people. He'd served for so long that We needed new blood. And he was chased out.
Carter
46:37
And then if you think of Ralph Klein, everybody is now sainted Ralph Klein. The sainted Ralph Klein got 55% in his leadership review. He was done in by his own people.
Carter
46:50
That's his own people who took him out. And, you
Carter
46:53
you know, so the sainted Ralph Klein didn't
Carter
46:58
the legacy that we remember him as having now,
Carter
47:01
which of course I bring up and point out the holes.
Carter
47:06
you know, was going to be the best thing ever.
Carter
47:09
René Lévesque, I think, may have been one.
Carter
47:12
can't remember. He didn't die in office, though, did he? He died afterwards. But, you know, it's just really hard to find these
Carter
47:21
leaders who leave at the right time.
Carter
47:23
Nenshi may have left at the right time, right?
Carter
47:26
right? If he'd gone for a fourth election, I'm
Carter
47:29
I'm fairly convinced he would have lost.
Carter
47:32
I think I could have taken, you know, I saw the beats that needed to be taken and to take him out if he had run. I'm glad that he didn't because it's better for him and better for everybody. He didn't have to suffer that loss.
Carter
47:49
you know, leaving at the top, I mean, Justin Trudeau is the one who's got to make this guess right now.
Carter
47:53
No one wins the fourth term.
Carter
47:55
No one wins the fourth term, and Justin's looking at it right now, and he's trying to figure out what he wants to be when he grows up.
Carter
48:00
My advice would be get the hell out of there and get the hell out of there in the next 48 months.
Carter
48:05
Or, I'm sorry, 24 months.
Zain
48:07
before we finish this off on this like is there not enough of a cost for politicians who get run out carter
Zain
48:13
carter pointed out some examples of like politicians who were run out but still maintained a sense of you
Zain
48:18
you know we look at them positively like so
Corey
48:22
do you want them fucking tarred and feathered it's fine look yeah
Zain
48:25
yeah it's interesting there's something
Corey
48:28
something interesting in the moment about how they live and how
Corey
48:30
right yeah so carter carter's two examples here in alberta of Lockheed and Klein yeah they are sort of who I was thinking of when I said even
Corey
48:38
even the ones we tend to think of very positively
Corey
48:40
positively now that's not
Carter
48:42
not really how their
Corey
48:43
their terms necessarily ended Klein for sure I mean think
Corey
48:46
think pieces and you know this guy's way past his prime he's a dinosaur look how he's embarrassing us in these various contexts it was there was myriad and the conversations were all over the place too um
Corey
48:57
you know it's it's one of those things that it's
Corey
49:01
it's tough to leave on the high You can get the high back and you can be thought of positively when it's all said and done.
Corey
49:07
But most people do not, you
Corey
49:09
you know, know when their best before date is. And how could you? Like, it's a tricky thing. Like, when do you know you're riding the wave up and riding the wave down in politics where there's always ups and downs, right? The trend lines are difficult to see over
Corey
49:23
When I think about Canadian politicians who left
Corey
49:25
left at the right time,
Corey
49:27
well, I don't know. I go back. Mackenzie King stayed too long. C'est Laurent stayed too long. Diefenbaker for sure stayed too long.
Corey
49:36
skipped over Pearson. He did okay, I suppose.
Corey
49:40
Trudeau stayed too long.
Corey
49:44
apparently a year was too long.
Carter
49:45
Will Rooney stayed too long?
Corey
49:47
Will Rooney stayed too long. Chrétien stayed too long.
Corey
49:52
I mean, I guess that's a version of stayed too long, but too long, right? The liberals were just there too long.
Corey
49:57
Harper stayed too long.
Corey
49:59
There's not a good track record of people leaving leaving uh
Corey
50:02
when when it's time and maybe that's just the system at work um
Corey
50:07
maybe that's just how it is uh
Zain
50:09
uh i like this discussion we're gonna leave that segment there moving on to our final segment our over under and our lightning round steven carter we
Zain
50:16
we do this for you every episode carter
Zain
50:19
carter overrated or underrelated leaving at the right time finding your best before date finding your expiry date and leaving or
Zain
50:26
or he just gave you a list of everyone who didn't leave before
Zain
50:28
before their best before date so is it overrated i skipped a
Corey
50:32
campbell i spicked turner
Carter
50:34
overrated i'd rather stay one more day and have all the power uh then leave one day earlier than i needed to says
Carter
50:44
says the guy who's been fired every time overrated
Zain
50:47
overrated underrated leaving at the right
Corey
50:52
zane the thing is every day in government is a gift and if you do it right Right. Not because of what it can mean for you, but what it can do for other people.
Corey
51:00
And who cares if you have glory?
Corey
51:04
Think about what you can do.
Zain
51:06
Boy, I'm going to stick with that glory or legacy. If you had to choose one or the other, which one would you take if you were in government?
Corey
51:11
Everybody wants to say the answer is legacy.
Corey
51:15
I don't know if that's how I would act in the moment.
Zain
51:17
Carter, same question for you. You're a strategist. Long term thinking is part of it. glory or legacy what are you picking uh
Carter
51:23
uh glory glory that leads to a glorious end um i've always been kind of the you
Zain
51:31
beautiful carter poetic thank you modern day rupee core i'm thinking of like um like the end you know who the modern day rupee core is it's rupee core um
Zain
51:40
that's good i'm you don't even know you're
Carter
51:41
you're crushing it today man this is i feel like i'm
Zain
51:44
i'm fucking killing it i'm feeling you
Carter
51:45
you are fucking killing
Carter
51:46
this is the best episode sticking
Zain
51:47
sticking take it with you the
Zain
51:48
the horgan legacy in bc i want to get into a whole john horgan thing future episode what bc looks like it's fascinating politics there especially
Zain
51:55
especially as the bc liberals contemplated name change which i think they're going to do if i'm not mistaken carter but
Zain
52:00
but the horgan legacy as you see it in bc what is it well
Carter
52:03
well i mean he recrafted the bc ndp in his own image um and that image uh is is separate from the uh the federal ndp and that served him very very well um
Carter
52:16
you you know, he has been able to make the Horgan NDP its own brand that
Carter
52:20
that has won elections. And I know that when he went into the election during the COVID times, I thought he was crazy. I thought he was taking too big a risk. And he just he sailed through it, just absolutely sailed through it.
Carter
52:35
You know, Trudeau watched what happened and said, you know what, I'm going to try that too, and then wasn't able to pull it off. So
Carter
52:42
So Horgan, to me, is a tremendously talented politician politician who
Carter
52:47
knows how to do brand politics and made his own brand a very special thing so
Carter
52:53
um you know i i'm not necessarily sure that i agree with all his policies but even the way that he's exited on the uh the museum piece where you know he you know made a mistake they wound up committing
Carter
53:05
committing a big number
Carter
53:06
number that they really didn't mean to and he he let he jumped on the sword for everybody. I mean, jumped
Carter
53:11
jumped on the grenade, whatever jumping
Carter
53:12
jumping on he needed to do. And he's burying that on his way out, like tremendous
Carter
53:18
tremendous political instincts. And I'd have to say a very strong Canadian politician.
Zain
53:25
Corey, the Horgan legacy in BC, what was it in your mind? What is it in your mind, at least as we write it right
Corey
53:33
So what happens next will really define it. We'll I'll have to see if they make a transition from him to the next leader and that that's smooth and that the NDP are still in a position that
Corey
53:43
that I expect they will be in. But nothing is assured there. But
Corey
53:45
But assuming that transition goes OK, he may have turned
Corey
53:49
turned the B.C. NDP into B.C.'s natural governing party.
Corey
53:53
You've got to keep in mind, B
Corey
53:55
B.C. NDP premiers don't like they sometimes don't finish terms like they don't get second terms. And John
Corey
54:01
John Horgan changed that script. And the landscape of politics in B.C. looks very different. There was a time the
Corey
54:08
the B.C. NDP looked can't win. Now they look can't lose. And he's done that by taking a different formula from NDP leaders in the past. And, you know, some of them may disagree with some of this, but
Corey
54:19
but he's been moderate. He's not an extremist. He's brought in balanced budgets. He's he's totally more left wing than the actions of his government. there is
Corey
54:27
is a famous line um or
Corey
54:30
or or story about uh dave dave
Corey
54:32
dave barrett who is the bcndp's first premier and at like the first cabinet meeting like
Corey
54:38
on the table in his socks was saying they're here for a good time not a long time and they governed their brains out they changed fucking
Corey
54:43
fucking everything and they were really left wing and
Corey
54:46
and they were turf yeah
Corey
54:47
yeah he didn't do that john horgan has managed to to
Corey
54:51
to walk a line where he's pushing forward the bcndp agenda with a methodicalness that does Reminds me actually of Stephen Harper and
Corey
54:58
and kind of a calmness and reigning in some of those forces. And
Corey
55:01
And as a result, B.C. politics may not look the same ever or for at least a very long time.
Zain
55:09
Corey, it's 9.30 p.m. at night. Raj Sherman has finished the day launching his campaign for UCP leadership in a race he's not allowed to enter. He says, you know what, I've got a phone call I need to make. He's driving in the truck plastered with his face all over it. and he and he puts you on the apple car play and he says cory what
Zain
55:29
do i do tomorrow what are you telling raj sherman cory hogan all
Corey
55:34
go back home take these stickers off your truck see if you can return it if it's a new truck and uh just pretend this didn't happen you
Corey
55:43
you don't need to quit the race it just just stopped carter
Zain
55:46
carter uh raj sherman calls you right after uh what are are you telling him your fee is?
Carter
55:52
My fee? $50,000 a month.
Zain
55:55
That is correct. That is the correct answer. Wrong answer, Corey. We're going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 999.9 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Belger. With me as always, Corey
Zain
56:07
Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we will see you next time.