Episode 982: The size of Pierre's thing

Zain 0:02

This is a Strategist episode 982. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, what

Zain 0:08

what is going on?

Carter 0:11

I'm a little thrown by the music. I mean, normally we just have to listen to your dulcet tones. And now

Carter 0:16

now I've got music in my ears and your voice in my ears and the San Antonio Spurs in my face. I don't know what's going on. It's a mess. I mean, you love it.

Carter 0:25

I know you love it. And that's all you really care about. by saying it was my you tried to tease me by saying it was my brisbane lions but that's not until late carter

Carter 0:32

carter had my nap to get ready are you

Zain 0:34

you alienating the audience in the first like 40 seconds again this is just like do you do not have

Carter 0:40

have any self-control thousand episodes i mean why do i alienate the audience because i don't care that's

Carter 0:46

that's why that's why i do it oh

Zain 0:49

oh i'm sorry i

Zain 0:49

clarify cory's the audience because he hasn't said anything else

Corey 0:51

else for cory hey

Corey 0:54

well Well, I'm just looking at all of our dashboards. I can see right now we've got, let me just get the live. We've got one live viewer of this live feed. So that's good. I mean, that's

Zain 1:04

that's exciting. Is it you, Corey? Because I suspect

Corey 1:06

suspect you're also, if you're watching, I suspect it is you. If I count towards the title, then yeah, I think we're just talking to ourselves right now.

Corey 1:11

Oh, well, that's excellent, Corey. That's

Corey 1:14

really, really exciting. That's good.

Zain 1:16

Carter, anything else you want to update, folks? I mean, we are just coming off of our live show. show uh a excellent sold out live show um any any don't save your comment here on that but anything else you want to bring up

Carter 1:29

no i think i'll talk i mean everything has been pretty great since the live show i mean i've been walking into random coffee shops and people will be like oh my god i saw you on sunday and i'll be like you know huh stop no autographs the usual stuff i mean i'm sure this has been happening to you too as well right i

Carter 1:46

go anywhere so no it's just you

Zain 1:48

you you it's just you carter no that's that's random coffee

Carter 1:49

coffee shops it's been pretty great you can

Zain 1:51

can take all of the uh the adulation you can take all of the credit it's fine it is your show after all we do it for you yeah

Carter 1:58

yeah well you do the at least the last segment for me and i'm always grateful

Zain 2:02

you know what speaking of segments let's move it on to our first one our first segment reviewing the live show cory hogan you know we do this after every live show the last time of course we've done this was six years ago uh but we do review the live show we give an honest assessment of our collective performance, our individual performance, but more importantly, we give an assessment of the audience's performance. You know, that is the most important part, is it not?

Corey 2:28

Well, sure. Absolutely. You're only as good as your audience. I've always said that. And as a result, I feel very bad about myself most days. But it's

Corey 2:37

chance to reassess today. Well,

Zain 2:40

Carter, how about we start there? Tell us about the audience performance on a 1 to 10 scale, I should say, the classic strategy scale. Tell me where the audience was on that fine Sunday night.

Carter 2:53

um i i'd give them a needs improvement zane i think that the problem with the the audience is that they were i mean most of them were bitching that they paid 35 and i had to keep reminding them that we only got 25 and

Carter 3:07

and they didn't seem to care they

Carter 3:09

they they were really focused on their own wallets and uh frankly i was pissed i mean like i

Carter 3:15

i still haven't got my deposit back i'd like to point that out now i did get an email today suggesting i may in the future but that's that's not now like it's been theoretical dollars for

Carter 3:26

three days that i've i've i'm still out of pocket and uh people were complaining 35

Carter 3:32

35 dollars like give me a break we only saw 25 of it you guys each walk away with three dollars and i'm getting a buck 50 right now like this is bullshit i

Zain 3:41

i i i agree uh carter this was a very fiscally conservative crowd uh unfortunately uh the pocketbook issues cory i mean we we did uh we got a unfortunately a poll from them not with an actual poll but uh with how much they were talking about the dollars and cents here i

Corey 3:59

mean if you say so uh i didn't go out and talk to them because i like to keep a little bit of distance between myself and the people around that has been your thing yeah that's always great do we want to

Zain 4:08

to talk about our collective performance on stage what would you give ourselves well

Corey 4:11

well uh you know what What are two tens and a two? So I guess 22 divided by three. So about 7.33 is what I would give us.

Carter 4:20

I said I was sorry for doing so many visual gags. Okay. I see

Carter 4:25

see where I went wrong. The visual gags, they worked in the room. You poured water on your head.

Carter 4:31

You poured water on your head. I poured water. I walked off stage. I walked back on stage. I mean, there were some bits, man. There were some bits. A little ham

Zain 4:38

ham-fisted, I'd say. A little ham-fisted. Yeah,

Zain 4:43

play. It looked awkward. I looked like a middle-aged white man losing his sanity

Carter 4:49

I saw the video. I looked like I'd cramped up or something. I didn't even look like I was walking properly.

Zain 4:56

I noticed there was a bit of a limp as you walked off stage, really kind of took away from the dramatic effect of a man taking his lapel mic off, throwing it down onto a soft couch and then limping away off stage. it

Carter 5:09

it really looked like i was gonna go take a shit it really did like i i had really planned things poorly and i had to go cory

Zain 5:16

know you know we're a fan of the 360 review on this podcast uh how did how did carter do well

Corey 5:24

you know i always like to compliment sandwich these things i think i would have a hard time doing that in this case so maybe i'll put the compliment in the middle maybe that's just an easier way to make that's right still

Zain 5:34

still sandwich different kind sandwich but still sandwich well

Zain 5:37

well uh you know i mean like any sandwich you just kind of take those two pieces of fridge bread and you just you know deliver what's in the middle cory so i'm just gonna power right through

Corey 5:46

through that so yeah

Zain 5:47

yeah no that's fine uh

Zain 5:48

uh you know the first layer

Corey 5:48

layer of bread i think i would say uh steven did you need to open with a joke about stds was that was that the strongest opening bit that you had oh

Carter 5:56

it was the strongest opening bit i had yeah okay well then

Corey 6:00

then the middle of the sandwich would be i really appreciated that you went with what you thought thought was your best material and

Corey 6:05

and then i suppose the the other piece of bread would be your your material was very bad so uh that would be my 360 analysis here that's pretty good thank you very much 360 analysis

Zain 6:16

analysis wrapped in two fridge breads let me read

Carter 6:19

read some of the feedback from the audience uh carter you carried the show what

Carter 6:23

what is that i did not it was all how many of your family

Carter 6:28

all of them yeah there was a lot there was a lot of family uh

Zain 6:32

carter uh you know in the spirit of that same 360 review uh what would you give uh one cory hogan who was also on stage with you

Carter 6:43

leave it there we'll move

Zain 6:43

move it on to our next segment

Corey 6:45

segment our next segment fine fabulous

Zain 6:46

fabulous or fucked guys we are back at it we are back at at it with the segment that That is so popular. It's very exciting. Very few people. We are going to do our classic fine, fabulous or fucked. If you are new to the podcast, welcome. If you're new to the segment, it is very easy. I read a story headline or something that happened this week. If necessary, I give Stephen and Corey the frame of a particular person to view it through. It could be a political leader, a political party. And then I ask him, was it fine? Was it fabulous or was it fucked? fucked. And as I always say, the best way to get started is to get started. And Stephen Carter, we do this for you. We start with you. Justin Trudeau said it is absolutely right to call Russia's actions in Ukraine a genocide.

Zain 7:33

Fine, fabulous, or fucked on that strategy as Canada works with its NATO partners on the continued Russian invasion of the Ukraine, of Ukraine, I should say.

Carter 7:45

I want to say it's fabulous. I want to say that that's exactly the type of language that we should be using. But I think that when you start to use language like a genocide, and you're not putting troops on the ground to stop it, you have to ask yourselves what you're doing.

Carter 7:58

We saw what happened with the Rwandan genocide, and we had troops on the ground. Romeo Dallaire, General Dallaire's book and discussions about it have haunted Canada ever since. We've seen what happens when we don't intervene. And, you know, they're talking about, you know, tens of thousands of, well, maybe even hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians who have been killed systematically by the

Carter 8:25

the Russian aggressors. But calling it a genocide almost

Carter 8:29

almost requires action. But I want to say it's fabulous because I want to say that we should call it what it is, that we shouldn't be worried about the political ramifications. But this is a political podcast, so I think I have to say that it's probably pretty fucked. Imagine being in a situation where you call something a genocide, you can see the evidence of a genocide, but you aren't prepared to intervene.

Carter 8:54

that's where we are.

Zain 8:55

You know, Corey, what's interesting about this is in the moment, Trudeau said it's absolutely right for more people to describe this as a genocide, but then would not repeat the word himself, trying to straddle this line of saying it's absolutely right to call the actions a genocide. I'm glad more people are doing it, but

Zain 9:14

but refused to do it himself. Fine, fabulous, or fucked with this strategy that Justin Trudeau has tried to take in describing what's happening in Ukraine right now. Well,

Corey 9:22

so I think everything Stephen said is right, right? You call something a genocide, then you don't act.

Corey 9:28

That's a pretty serious disconnect. And if you think through it rationally, if you think through it like a human being, you should ask yourself, well,

Corey 9:34

well, how can you come to those conclusions and not take these actions? But I hate to say it from a political point of view, it's probably fine. And there's a couple of different ways you can look at this. One is that there's kind of the conventional sense of genocide, and people immediately jump to the Holocaust, right? Systematic execution, millions of people.

Corey 9:52

Genocide defined, you know, legally is a little bit broader than that. so genocide means i'm quoting here any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy in whole or in part a national ethnical racial or religious group and then it goes on to list them killing causing serious bodily harm uh inflicting group conditions calculated to bring about physical destruction in whole and part imposing measures to prevent births forcibly transferring children so that's that's pretty big and essentially if you go to war with a country And you're going to war in part because you want to destroy that country, as is the case with Russia and Ukraine. Vladimir Putin's been very specific about that. Of course, it's a genocide. It's very specifically, very concretely a genocide.

Corey 10:34

And so he's using the term. It's funny because he's using the term in a legal sense. I think he's afraid to use it in the conventional sense, if that makes any sense at all. But all told, I

Corey 10:46

I just don't think people are going to call him on it. I think people in Canada feel outraged,

Corey 10:51

outraged, but not outraged enough to actually put Canadian troops in harm's way. And that's something they should think about. We should all think about. But yeah,

Corey 11:00

yeah, that hypocrisy is something that we sort of live with as a country right now. Yeah.

Zain 11:05

Corey, I'm going to stick with you for our next one. Fine, fabulous, or fucked? We'll stick with the liberals. We'll stick with the governing party. Roughly one-third of liberal cabinet ministers own rental or investment real estate. On the heels of, of course, housing becoming a national issue, housing affordability and affordable housing become a massive national issue. Roughly one-third of ministers sitting around the liberal cabinet table own rental or invest in real estate assets while fully legal. Real estate experts say the holdings reflect the degree to which Canadians are increasingly viewing real estate as a financial asset rather than a place to live. For the liberals who are championing housing, who have come across aggressively leaning into federal leadership on housing, fine, fabulous, or fucked, Corey, that roughly one third of their cabinet ministers own rental or investment real estate.

Corey 11:52

It's fucked, but I don't think it's uniquely fucked to the liberals. The reality is these these are affluent individuals. Real estate has been kind of financialized over the past couple of decades. A

Corey 12:04

A number of people that we know who buy their first house and rather than selling their first house when they get their second house, they just rent out that second house and so on and so forth. Yeah.

Zain 12:13

Yeah. We know people, I'm sure, in our lives and folks

Corey 12:16

folks around us, of course. I mean, in reality, I was one of those people for a couple of years while I lived up in Edmonton and maintained my house in Calgary, right?

Corey 12:23

And I didn't think of myself as a real estate mogul at

Corey 12:26

at the time now

Corey 12:26

now no you didn't know yeah was

Corey 12:28

was i well off yeah absolutely i think we should kind of own our privilege in those cases there but we're

Corey 12:33

we're not talking about one third of the liberal cabinet um you

Corey 12:38

you know owning these things in in like the sense that it's like at one of those retail companies you see downtown like a broadway or something where you call them up yeah yeah you're going to be able to get uh you know a property from them but

Corey 12:48

but it is fucked like let's underline it we have gotten to a place where uh properties are accumulating to fewer and fewer people. They're out of reach of more and more people. And that's the result of a number of decisions that have been made, both around housing policy, but also around financial policy for many decades at this point.

Zain 13:06

Carter, find fabulous or fucked that the one third of liberal cabinet ministers own rental or investment real estate, right? Like something that maybe even a couple years ago would not have made the radar. But because of that election, because of the priority of housing, because of how important this has become, and arguably, perhaps even because of how well Pierre Polyever and others on the conservative side have kept the issue alive.

Zain 13:29

How big of a deal is this fine, fabulous, or fucked for the liberals, Carter?

Carter 13:32

It's fabulous. It's no big deal. I mean, if we're going to have, I mean, we don't have to have everybody in the entire country owning their own homes. Renting is a perfectly viable option for people who want to live somewhere and they can rent their homes. And the trick is, are they, you know, are they slumlords? Are they are they renting out substandard homes or substandard properties to people who have no options? Then that would be pretty fucked. But the reality is that we're going to see, you know, 10 to 20 percent of the population rent their homes, rent their places of living. And that's fine. It shouldn't be outside of the liberal cabinet to to rent or to own a second home and rent it out to someone. one personally i think that if it's vacant they should be paying extra taxes to incentivize renting out additional spaces but this doesn't get to these liberal cabinet ministers are owning vacant homes i mean i used to live in canmore i can tell you that there are there is so many vacant homes in canmore that it's almost ridiculous but also a canmore town council that prohibits short-term rentals it makes it hard for longer-term rentals renting isn't a sin renting isn't a crime and owning a rental place isn't a sin nor is it a crime and

Zain 14:46

and carter i'm not going to retort against you i suspect cory wants to cory jump in here react to what carter said here ultimately laying out that listen they're not doing anything illegal we've talked about that they're just providing you know something that they own as part of their rental

Corey 15:01

yeah renting is not a sin owning a house is not a crime being wealthy is not a crime being

Corey 15:06

being successful is not a crime but when those things begin to accumulate to just fewer and fewer people that's

Corey 15:11

that's a big fucking problem crime or not and uh the liberals are the ones holding the bag right now because they're in government they've got to find solutions to these so they've

Corey 15:20

they've got to be able to present to canadians that they are not part of the problem that you know it's not fabulous i don't know how you come to fabulous because it is in many ways indicative of of a bigger problem in this country like the

Carter 15:34

the the people have money enough to own two homes like you did and and have the ability to rent out one of those homes and keep it in an immaculate in immaculate shape and give a family a place to live without requiring the capital investment that would be required by being a homeowner that's fucked that's a problem i don't see that as a problem what i see is a problem when people and companies own slums take advantage of people that can't afford it uh the fact that we're not building more affordable housing is a problem but the fact that some people rent their homes and other people rent out their homes isn't a problem that is not something that is a sin what

Zain 16:09

what do you think of cory's argument uh which is funnily enough now which is

Zain 16:15

is now funnily enough carter translating it to uh something pierre polyamory and others in the conservative movement are now saying about accumulation of resources with a small group of people that that optically Exactly. And really, in a real sense, this is a group of people, I'm talking to liberal cabinet ministers here who already have a certain amount of power in their jobs. And this is an accumulation of more power with controlling perhaps people's housing futures in some way. Do you buy that in terms of that accumulation?

Carter 16:45

accumulation? bullshit and and conservatives pick a lane are you for free enterprise are you against free enterprise are you for people having the ability to to make money or are you against it there's lots of really good people in the world who own more than one home that rent out really quality rental homes to to other people but

Corey 17:01

but this is not it's

Corey 17:03

it's a bulldog argument

Corey 17:05

like nobody is saying nobody is saying that it is put a tax on it oh yeah we already have a

Carter 17:10

a fucking tax on it there's is a tax on your second home. If you make any capital gains on that second home, you're paying tax on it. You're paying tax on the revenue from that home because that home is now an assets producing revenue. We're paying taxes. If you want to fix the disparity between high income people and low income people, then fix the income tax rates. Put it on a wealth tax. I'm all in. Let's do it. Brett Wilson should pay fucking more money. I'm in. Make it happen. But people who have the capital to buy and maintain homes who rent them out to others aren't committing a sin like

Carter 17:43

this and i'm also for uber i love uber too cory hogan this

Corey 17:48

is a bullshit argument nobody

Corey 17:50

is saying that renting should not exist nobody at all are

Carter 17:53

are saying that it's a problem for cabinet ministers to own property that they rent out you're saying not me i

Corey 18:00

that one third of cabinet ministers Ministers

Corey 18:04

Ministers owning property and renting it out at a time when people are saying that housing is out of reach of the average Canadian. As we all fucking know, the average Canadian wants a cabinet minister to have the same salary as them and live in the same circumstances as them, Stephen. One

Carter 18:17

third of cabinet ministers giving housing, providing housing in the housing market solution. Carter, are you a cabinet minister? You're really

Zain 18:24

really shilling hard for this. I like it. Yes, seriously. I like it, Carter.

Zain 18:28

Corey finishes off and I've got a question on the other side of this because I want to keep it in the housing lane while we can. So finish your thought.

Corey 18:38

These are problems stacked on problems. And to sit here and pretend they're not problems either in a real sense or in an optical sense is insane. Stephen Carter is taking an insane position right now because yes, obviously housing is a challenge in this country. The cost of housing has gotten way out of hand and all you need to do is look at how how it's risen in this country relative to basically every other country in the world in the last 20 years and the fact that some people who would wish to own are not able to own is a problem people want to be able to own their own houses now you can argue is owning that much better than renting i would say it it gets overblown as a homeowner obviously uh you know you get the random thousand dollar bills out of nowhere that would be your landlord's problem in a lot of cases but the reason why this financialization has become so bloody popular is because the price of housing goes up 10% a year, right?

Carter 19:30

As caused by all those liberal cabinet ministers buying all that property, I guess. Ah, for fuck's sake.

Corey 19:34

sake. We're talking about the optics of this. We're talking about whether they have a political optics problem. And yes, they

Carter 19:41

they do. Rob Anders used to own five or six different homes. Rob Anders is probably supporting fucking Pierre Palliat. But

Carter 19:49

Carter, here's the thing.

Zain 19:50

thing. Has the Overton

Zain 19:54

Overton window on this, has the reality of this situation on housing changed? We saw it in the election where flipping houses was a thing. I suspect that would not have been a thing in the 2015 election, in the 2011 election, in elections of other eras. This is now a thing. And so to Corey's point, fundamentally, Carter, do you not believe that this is an optics problem, that this story comes out and that there's not a response and perhaps a very powerful response by Pierre Polyavra and the conservatives on this i

Carter 20:25

mean i don't know i don't think so i think that this is this is i mean keep in mind this is the government that literally just brought in the legislation the budget that's going to eliminate the ability to flip homes i mean this is this is a government that's taking action on on housing costs and it's not being caused by 11 uh you know cabinet ministers having a property that can be rented out we're

Zain 20:47

we're going to move it on to our next one it's related fine fabulous or or Fucked Carter. Pierre Polyarva talking about big city gatekeepers like Vancouver City Hall, destroying the home ownership dreams of the working class youth. He had made a five minute video, or nearly five minute video, about a $5 million house in Vancouver, where he talked about why you are competing for properties like this, how crazy the housing market is.

Zain 21:11

Pierre Polyarva's message on this, I know he's not your cup of tea, so we'll put that in the review window, Carter. Fine, fabulous, or fucked, Pierre Polyarva on housing and the angle he's taking on it fabulous

Carter 21:24

mean his messaging is bang on it

Carter 21:26

it is actually working it is uh and and he's and the way he delivered it it really it really angers me it really angers me how good the message was because it worked oh

Carter 21:37

oh yeah i mean this is a guy that you know when we saw some uh data come out of abacus today david coletto posted some stuff about how people respond respond to uh pierre's videos um this is a guy who speaks with plain language that's clearly understandable talking about big issues that matter i mean he reminds me of cory hogan when cory talks about liberal cabinet ministers owning property and not being a bad thing i mean it's frustrating because his message and on this particular issue i have to agree with him i mean we have um local governments that stand in the way of of making affordable housing work i I mean, I, you know, it's a, it's a problem, especially we've talked about the lower mainland and Southwestern Ontario. Um, but it's a problem everywhere. It's a problem, um, across the country. It's a problem here in Calgary problem in Edmonton where, you know, we're still struggling with what, with, with how to provide, uh, affordable housing. And part of it is, um, you know, the NIMBY side. And I gotta be telling you, I mean, it feels like Pierre has found a way to turn NIMBY into yimby and uh good for him i i think it's really fabulous what he's messaging cory

Zain 22:45

cory i want to get your take on this fine fabulous or fuck the way pierre polly ever is positioning housing as an issue uh his his video i want to talk about the elements of his video in in a second year but top line how he's positioning the issue fine fabulous or fuck cory he's

Corey 23:00

he's clearly all in on housing his launch video leaned very heavily into housing people latched on to him talking about canadians being the freest people on earth when he's done with it all if he got to be prime minister but he is he's dug deep and he's found this issue and he's latching on to it what's interesting is his solutions are not what you would consider kind of conventional conservative solutions in many cases right the

Corey 23:24

the idea that the federal government is going to withhold money to municipalities that is often funneled through provinces i mean i seem to remember a time when the conservatives cared about things like jurisdiction and wouldn't be particularly inclined uh when the federal government would put strings on things like health care transfers let alone transfers to municipalities for god even knows what like all of these random things but it

Corey 23:44

it was good it was articulate it was uh it was a well put together point it was a point that didn't dwell

Corey 23:49

dwell on the absurd like you know he it starts with him in front of a house in vancouver that

Corey 23:54

that doesn't look very great saying this is what four million dollars gets you or something like that

Corey 23:59

fair this same size lot over there got six units on it but

Corey 24:04

but that means you're starting with eight hundred thousand dollars just for the land before you even get to a house how is that possible uh i'm gonna work to make sure that this can't be the case uh so on and so forth well

Corey 24:14

well done well constructed uh and he's obviously thinks he's got a winner here and by the way everybody

Corey 24:20

everybody in this country is talking about housing affordability right now. And while I don't think that is entirely because of him, he's

Corey 24:26

he's certainly creating a bit of a virtuous cycle for himself in terms of talking about housing, getting the media talking about housing as an issue, and having the solutions for it. And next to him, the liberals look positively weak. So we talk a lot about ballot questions. We talk about if you can get people in your box, in your frame, you're winning. This is the perfect example. The

Corey 24:46

The liberals have just decided they're going to talk about housing the same as Pierre. And I'm

Corey 24:51

I'm not necessarily convinced that's to their advantage, but they're doing it and it's working for him because he is leading media cycles right now.

Zain 24:58

How has he done that, Carter? How is he, despite the liberals' commitments of billions and billions of spending on multiple types of housing programs for people from various walks of life, how with, I don't want to be simplistic on this, but with

Zain 25:14

with one video, how is Peter Polyarp taking the conversation?

Carter 25:18

Because it's about how how you imagine the the audience right the liberal even the way you just phrased it right the millions you know the billions of spending the billions of this the other thing yeah

Carter 25:28

that doesn't talk to me as an audience member that doesn't speak to me as an individual you mean

Zain 25:33

mean like the housing accelerators and the the the the fund and

Carter 25:36

don't know what any of that stuff is i mean tell me whether or not i'm going to be able to buy a house in language that i can understand is it is

Zain 25:43

is it a coherence

Zain 25:44

coherence problem on the other side carter that that the that the the progressive perhaps quasi technocratic way is is it lacks coherence in that sense it's

Carter 25:52

it's scale right so governments can governments can have um scandals that lose a billion dollars and have it have less impact than scandals that cost you five thousand dollars yeah

Carter 26:04

right because you know bev oda's sixteen dollars glass of orange cheers i'm not sure if we're inflating it maybe it was 13 but it doesn't matter because it's something that i can probably 16 now

Zain 26:13

now with inflation that's yeah

Carter 26:14

yeah i can inherently inherently understand that right i can inherently understand how much the you know what you're paying how much for a glass of orange juice i can't you know that's like you know i can buy a week's worth of you know groceries i don't know what it is but these these types of things that are put into human skin no i don't know how much groceries gross enough really no i'm really like george bush here where

Corey 26:40

donaghy's talking about how much a sack of potatoes costs Oh, my God. Seriously. With

Zain 26:46

price thing. Let me just finish off my thought. Can I just say, you should be buying an investment property with how out of

Carter 26:51

of touch you are. It feels like it. How

Carter 26:54

How much could that cost? But he made it human. He made it human. The numbers were human. And he was on my side. So I was brought into his story. It's something we've talked about on the pod a number of times. And I just really can't emphasize how important it is to make sure that the people that you're speaking to are going to be characters in your story. The characters in your story are super important. Can I see myself in your story? Liberals right now don't have the ability to craft a story with the general population in it. They are great at crafting stories that the media can see themselves in, in some fashion. Big numbers, big dollars, big things, but not average people. Corey,

Zain 27:38

Corey, this is this is fascinating to me, right? Like, as I explained, liberals spending billions of dollars per poly over with probably an iPhone, and some, you know, very basic editing, kind of taken over the issue. Can I can I ask you further to explain from a political communications and tactical level, you guys have put some interesting things on the table, the articulate the problem definition, the comparison between the two homes, how we physically presents, what other things made this work? Because conventionally, if I told you there is a four minute video on housing that's going to go viral, during a conservative leadership campaign, you guys would tell me to like, get the fuck out of here. But what else worked, Corey, right? From a political communications level, what lessons are there to take away from what Pierre Polyarp did here? Well,

Corey 28:20

Well, first of all, tactically, he's gotten better at this. He's been doing this format for a while. We've made fun of it for a while, but he's obviously figured out what works. The lumber is the

Zain 28:28

the one we've made fun of previously.

Corey 28:30

previously. He's got a sense of the algorithm and that counts for something, right? Anybody who spends a lot of time on social media, I can tell you, like when I put out a tweet, Sometimes I put it out. I'm like, there are going to be four people who engage with this, but I want to say it anyways. And there's other times where I think it's really dumb, but I know that immediately it's going to get 500 likes because it just, it plays to that kind of audience. So he's got a good sense of that. He knows how to build those things, including how you've got to hook them in the first six seconds or so, which he did here, right? With the big shock value of the Vancouver reveal. And then the pivot, the quick pivot that made it clear what the issue was all about. But

Corey 29:04

But let's be really clear. There's also some substantive stuff behind it that makes it more likely that he'll be successful as well. And the first is, he didn't just take this issue. He's been talking about inflation forever. For the past two years on this podcast, we've been talking about him reading the drum about inflation, right? He's been talking about housing forever. And also, he is presenting actual solutions here. you talked about why is this working instead of the progressive technocratic way that makes it sound like there are actually thoughtful progressive solutions to this problem and i don't see them i don't see how putting more money into housing makes housing cheaper it's pretty fucking simple when you get right down to it you increase supply or you reduce demand right and uh the government of the day the liberals have no desire to increase supply to a point where it's going to reduce reduce prices for people to be able to enter the market. And they have no desire to reduce demand because they see owning a home as part of that middle-class dream they've been selling since 2015.

Zain 30:04

Carter, combine the last two items for me. So Pierre-Paul, you're talking about housing this week, expanding perhaps his tent of praise. People like us were not on board with what he's about, if I can fairly say. Others saying, yeah, you know what? I think he nailed this. And it is his problem definition. Solutions, I don't know if they're the right ones, but I think he's doing this in a way that connects and resonates, and it's showing that it does. Combine that with the liberal story right here, Carter. If you were in the Polyev war room today, if you were sitting next to Jenny Byrne, if you were advising her, saying, you just had a great week on housing, and now this story comes about the liberals, and your whole housing thing is that there's elite gatekeepers to you being able to afford a home, what are you saying? What is your message about the liberal, the one-third of liberal ministers owning investment property, Carter, if you're in the Pierre Pagliar form room tonight.

Carter 30:57

Yeah, this is what's upset me so much about it. Those two things, the two things aren't related, right? Really? I

Carter 31:05

I don't think they're related. I mean, yeah. I mean, maybe he, I don't like where it goes. I don't like the attack. Game it

Zain 31:11

it out, game it out, because someone's going to do something about it, guaranteed, right?

Carter 31:15

Yeah, where it goes is that,

Carter 31:16

know, the reason, the reason there's a housing crisis is because we've We've got all the elites owning multiple homes and they're all sitting empty and they're not even being rented out.

Carter 31:25

We've got the inventory, but we've got a vacancy problem. That's why we're seeing taxes increased across the board. Vancouver is increasing their vacancy tax. Canmore should put one in. Calgary should put one in. If there's a vacant property, it should be taxed at a totally different rate.

Carter 31:43

Having people who own property, who rent out property, who are using that property to generate rate income is a good story for government. We want people to be making that money because we tax that money.

Carter 31:55

That's money that becomes taxable. And I just don't understand the

Carter 32:03

I mean, I get the issue. I mean, I will tell you, I have a poll that just came out of the field and

Carter 32:08

affordable housing is the number one issue in the lower mainland. I suspect it's the number one issue almost across the country. And it's not by a little bit, it's by like a mile. It's a lot of it. I mean, this isn't like he stumbled upon this. I mean, any pollster with like an IVR telephone line could could figure this thing out. I mean, it's not a tough thing, but

Carter 32:25

but I don't like linking these two. I don't like first of all, I just don't. I honestly don't see the liberals owning property as a problem. I

Carter 32:35

I just don't see it.

Zain 32:36

Corey, I don't want to relitigate that last argument, but I know that they're probably ever. But his team is going to go after this. They know they've, you know, this is one of those things where at least the liberals are addressing the issue in the sense of housing's a priority for them. Pierre Palliarev now has jumped into housing.

Zain 32:52

He's going to talk about it. What would you be encouraging to say tonight or tomorrow as this story about the liberal cabinet ministers and his good week on housing continues? This is so

Corey 33:02

so consistent with his campaign messaging overall. I encourage you to watch his three-minute introductory video where he lays out his basic grievances. And one of them is that Canadians are becoming less free and the people pulling the strings are getting all of the benefits. So, look, I mean, I do agree with Stephen that that causal relationship is not nearly as clear and defined even as the so-called neutral media reporting on it suggested. Sure, but it's in his housing week.

Zain 33:29

week. It's in his message box. It's

Zain 33:31

you know, it's like juicy

Corey 33:32

juicy fastball. People are having trouble buying a house. People are having trouble buying a house. And liberal ministers have multiple houses. I mean, that's it. That's it. That's all most people need to hear. And again, it reinforces this idea of haves and have-nots. And Polyev is more than happy to blame elites and the invisible thief of inflation, right? And both of those occur with the housing problem.

Zain 33:56

Carter, does that argument not persuade you? People are having difficulty buying houses, liberal ministers have multiple houses. Just that line that Corey put out there as a political critical message.

Zain 34:08

Are you telling me that you don't think that's going to pierce and penetrate?

Carter 34:12

Very well made. I

Carter 34:13

I mean, and this is one of the reasons I really can't stand Pierre Polyev. He has no problems creating the piercing lines, the lines that just reach right through. Well, Corey's now helping him

Zain 34:24

him doing it. Thank you, Corey. Thank you for the service.

Zain 34:28

he's a $6 Patreon member to

Zain 34:31

this fine insight. But yes, Carter, back

Carter 34:35

problem is that when you start to just hit the line, it's

Carter 34:39

it's a problem instead of hitting the actual issue.

Carter 34:44

People being able to rent enables

Carter 34:46

enables more people to have homes. Not everybody needs to buy their home. I mean, this is just not foundationally important. What is foundationally important is that we have affordable inventory, that we have available inventory.

Carter 35:01

And Pierre, neither really Pierre's ideas and the liberals ideas may be able to generate some of that affordable inventory. But Corey's

Carter 35:11

Corey's other point, the point that I will agree with Corey, is you either have to dramatically increase supply or you have to dramatically reduce demand. And neither one of those things has been actually undertaken. take.

Zain 35:22

Carter, I'm going to go to you for our next one. Fine, fabulous, or fucked?

Zain 35:27

Jean Charest says Pierre Pallieva's support for the trucker convoy disqualifies him from the leadership of the party. That particular angle that he's trying to hit on, fine, fabulous, or fucked is a political strategy, is a political message. Carter, what do you think?

Carter 35:42

I think that anybody who was supporting the violent overthrow or even the non-violent overthrow of a democratically elected government is really treading too close to the line. And Pierre Palliev, we said it at the time. We said it at the time. This was a bad idea for him to be on this idea and pushing the trucker issue so hard. Again, this is why I don't like him. He will jump on any populist train. Sometimes the populist train I may agree with because I do agree with affordable housing being a right for everybody. But I don't agree with him advocating for the overthrow of of, you know, the democratically elected government. And I also don't like where it went. Right. The dictator comments that are coming out of even his caucus, his supporters are saying that, you know, Trudeau is a dictator. dictator. You know, Charest is right. This should be disqualifying. And in any other circumstance, I think it would have been disqualifying, except that the conservatives are so damn desperate for someone who could appeal to a broader population. They're even prepared to take Pierre Polyev.

Zain 36:46

Yeah. Corey, do you think they're kind of like, you know, it's too far gone? That's something like this. Maybe I'll ask you for your top line. Fine, fabulous or fucked. Charest strategy here. And then your reaction to are the conservatives too far gone here to perhaps even even want to acknowledge this message uh

Corey 37:03

well if they are he doesn't stand a chance of winning the leadership anyways so i i think it's fabulous because that's a wedge and it's about time he's trying to define uh what uh what his difference is from pierre polliev and uh why you should elect him rather than uh rather than pierre and this is actually very much in line with where we talked about recommending he go a couple of months ago right which that's right you You remember the idea, well, Carter and I disagreed on this. I'm curious if his thoughts have evolved over time, but he

Corey 37:34

said, or Stephen said, Charest

Corey 37:37

Charest is a winner. That's what he should run on. And I said, Charest is sane. That's what he should run on. And I think this is very much part of the strategy of Jean Charest is sane and good Canadians that are in the middle or middle adjacent should support him.

Corey 37:49

Expand that tent because the existing conservative tent is just too small for some of the views that Jean Charest carries.

Zain 37:56

You know, Carter, from your perspective, what does Sheree need to do here? Because you're seeing increased, and maybe the question I'm trying to ask you is not even about Sheree, but it's about Polly Everett. You know, a couple of weeks ago on our, it may have been a month or so ago, Carter, on our episode where we were talking about the massive, massive numbers of individuals registering for the UCP Leadership Review, you said, and I've seen others repeat it. after that at some point you can't organize these numbers, that there's a sense of virality to what's happening here. Do

Zain 38:33

Do you see that the Pure Poly Ever campaign has reached virality with the, and I don't mean that in like the buzzword throwaway sense, I mean in that organizing context you were talking about, that some of the numbers you're seeing, 5,000 in Calgary last night, could not be reached through strict organizing, that there's a movement, there's self-generation, self-perpetuation, that there's growth here that is beyond organizing. Do you feel like that's where the Pure Polyamory campaign is right now? And if so, what can Sheree do about it?

Carter 39:03

Well, I absolutely believe that. But I also remember saying that there was a lane available to the NDP, the federal NDP, to start organizing community events across the country because I thought that people were desperate for a sense of community. And I think that that's one of the reasons that the trucker rallies did so well and the The flag waving rallies, you know, we're waving the Canadian flag because we demand better. And to clarify,

Zain 39:26

clarify, you suggested the federal NDP should provide kind of the official response to the trucker convoy as community events and solidarity against this sort of mantra that was being perpetuated upon Ottawa, right?

Carter 39:40

Well, and I think that Pierre has picked up on the trucker model, right? Let's get them to events. I mean, I'm not seeing a lot of other community-based stuff that people are, I mean, and frankly, if I can be, you know, frank

Carter 39:55

frank about our, our success on the weekend, right? I think that people desperately

Carter 39:58

desperately wanted to come and be a part of something. I, I know

Carter 40:02

know of no other way that the three of us, yeah, who's could have filled a 400 seat theater. Um, like that to me is. They

Carter 40:09

were there for each other

Zain 40:10

other as much as they were there for for us. Right. And I think

Carter 40:12

think they wanted to be in a room. Yeah.

Carter 40:13

Yeah. With people like them who, you know, who were, you know, who liked politics. This seems ridiculous, but they love politics and they they were they were they're so willing to laugh and so willing to to come with us on that on that journey. And I think that that's what Pierre is doing. Pierre is giving his audience that exact same opportunity. And it has gone viral because people are so desperate for it. They're so desperate for this type of feeling. They're willing to listen to Pierre Palliev. That's unbelievable.

Zain 40:43

Corey, what does Charest need to do now? Like, is it, you've said in our live show, you've said it here today, he's not going to win.

Zain 40:52

If he's not going to win, what does he need to do?

Zain 40:54

That may sound like an antithetical question.

Zain 40:56

if the victory's not there, what are you doing? Are you just doing warning cries about, I warned you, I told you so, you should have gone with me? What sort of message

Zain 41:07

message and what sort of lane should he be picking here, Corey? No,

Corey 41:10

No, I guess when I say he's not going to win, it's dot, dot, dot, if he continues as he's been proceeding in the past. Okay, fair, fair. Right?

Corey 41:18

Let's not call the game in the first quarter. There's still an awful lot of ball left, and there is an opportunity for him to change course. Of course.

Corey 41:25

It's pretty clear to me that the existing conservative party, as

Corey 41:28

as we sort of think about it, as we imagine it frozen at the time of the trucker convoys, that's

Corey 41:34

that's Pierre Polyev's party. That's not Jean Charest's party. Jean Charest can

Corey 41:39

get numbers, he can win, but he's going to have to do it a different way. Keep in mind a couple of things. One, there

Corey 41:45

there is a point system for riding, right? So you've got the ability

Corey 41:50

ability to play for geography as much as or more than people. Sure, Pierre Pauly, I've got 5,000 people out in South Calgary, but there's

Corey 41:58

there's only so many ridings in Calgary. There's an awful lot more ridings on the island of Montreal.

Corey 42:04

Sure, absolutely. In the lower mainland, you're getting big crowds of individuals.

Corey 42:10

But again, that's not everywhere in this country. And maybe in the 905, Patrick Brown's getting a certain percent and

Corey 42:17

or Pierre Polyev. It's not impossible for him to win. I

Corey 42:19

I think it's improbable for him to win right now. He's certainly taken a bit of an uphill battle.

Corey 42:24

Obviously, all of the wind is at the back of Pierre Polyev. But

Corey 42:27

But this was a good step. This

Corey 42:28

This was a good step suggesting that there's something fundamentally wrong with what Pierre was trying to do, sitting next to the truckers, that that should be disqualified by the standard Canadian conventions of politics as we at least think we understood them 20 years ago. I'm not sure we did.

Corey 42:49

that would be disqualifying and so if he can get enough people from outside of that tent maybe he can make a go with it but um

Corey 42:56

um to to be determined you know remains to be seen um but what he's really going to need to do is have to expand things and get out there in a big way that we're not seeing and

Corey 43:06

and so to circle back to your first point about virality here

Corey 43:10

what's his equivalent how does he get virality doesn't need to be the same type doesn't need to be.

Corey 43:15

Go to an agricultural center. By the way, huge cold snap in Calgary. It's like minus 10 right now. Fucking terrible living here sometimes.

Corey 43:22

But just dragging yourself out there in the snow to hear a political speech in front of a crowd of 5,000 people doesn't need to be that. But what's your equivalent? How do you get concerned

Corey 43:34

concerned Canadians in the same or similar numbers to buy memberships and to vote for you?

Corey 43:40

Corey, I'm going to leave

Zain 43:40

leave it on this polyever conversation find fabulous or fuck new data by abacus backing up that young voters well they are kind of excited about pure polyever uh in addition to that it also indicates that according to a survey of 2000 canadians uh based on the launch video uh of pure polyever not the housing one we were talking about um that a fair share of folks were quite attracted to it uh that half of those who viewed the video agreed with this message a quarter disagreed and a quarter or weren't sure. For political video, especially reaching beyond your base, which is what this survey did, quite impressive. If you're Justin Trudeau, let me use that frame, Corey. Find fabulous or fucked to see these results from a guy that many progressives, perhaps even a former version of myself, dismissed as a fringe social conservative couldn't actually be mainstream viable. Well, he's

Corey 44:33

he's mainstream viable. I think that we're seeing more and more data that suggests that and

Corey 44:37

and and that would cause me concern if i were the liberals uh because ultimately he's

Corey 44:43

he's leading them around right now on issues like inflation on the issues like housing he is controlling the agenda much more than a man in his position should be able to do right they're still in a leadership race this is not even the leader of the official opposition right now and he's got some some serious chops in that space uh

Corey 44:59

uh you know my i thought it was a good three minute video i referenced a little little earlier today right his three minute launch video my

Corey 45:07

my critique of it is pretty similar to my critique of of jason kenney's much longer 45 minute defense of his uh you know leadership and his request that people continue to support him which

Corey 45:18

which is it's really well constructed it it is exactly the tone that you want to hit i mean it even had that dramatic violin music yeah you know just hitting exactly the right strings in a literal sense here but

Corey 45:31

but it requires you to turn and off critical thinking. It requires you to not remember things accurately. What concerns me is it seems that Canadians are in the mood to not remember things accurately. They want the story. They want the easy solutions. They want the narratives. And

Corey 45:46

And if I'm Justin Trudeau, that's

Corey 45:48

that's giving me some serious, serious pause.

Zain 45:51

Carter, fine, fabulous, or fucked for Trudeau. The growth in support, at least the data indicating that Pierre Pagliaro was getting with Canadians outside of his base, including younger Canadians. Fine, fabulous, or fucked for the Trudeau machine, Carter?

Carter 46:06

Oh, it's fucked. I mean, the

Carter 46:08

the book that I haven't written that Corey's going to write for me at some point is titled The Tyranny of the Less Engaged. And the problem with it is that Corey was describing how people respond to the messaging and how they have to be willing to suspend their Their knowledge. Well, the problem is that they don't know very much. They're not listening to political podcasts every week. They're not reading the newspapers. They're not digging into the issues. They're following pop culture and sports. That's what people care about. And every four years, we ask them to vote for things. And unfortunately,

Carter 46:43

unfortunately, that means that sometimes their decisions are incredibly shallow. I would argue the 2015 election was an incredibly shallow election. They chose Justin Trudeau because they thought

Carter 46:54

thought he was pretty and they liked him and they liked the family and they liked the McLean spread.

Carter 47:00

Those were not issues. Those were a

Carter 47:03

a reaction, an emotional reaction to how we want to be seen in the world. um pierre paliev has the ability to do the exact same thing um for different reasons right he's not handsome you

Carter 47:15

you know he's not going to win because of his the family looks right he's going to win because he's saying the words to us that we wish to hear he's got trump elements to him he's got reagan elements to him um these are the the people who these are elections that are held i mean i

Carter 47:29

i don't want to compare them jfk necessarily but the man's a speaker he gets people excited And in a way that others

Carter 47:36

others aren't able to. And that will win elections. If I was the liberals, I'd be saying, man, we got to ramp things up. And if it's going to be Trudeau, if

Carter 47:47

if it's going to be Trudeau in the next election, I think I said this a couple of podcasts ago, you've got to double down and you've got to get the campaign machinery in place right now because this isn't going to be as, it's not going to be as good and as easy as it was the last two elections. and keeping in mind you didn't win the last two elections you

Zain 48:05

i have to ask you guys this you know on the polyamory one question i i fail to ask you guys around the charrette stuff but i'll ask it here because we're still talking about him is

Zain 48:15

the like level of antipathy between charrette and polyamory like it's getting intense like they're calling each other liars they're saying each other should be disqualified they're also going after patrick brown uh on on a bunch of stuff the level The level of scorched earth, Carter, that you're seeing, the level of personal attacks, is this what you expected from this race? Many have said this is going to be a soul-searching event, so what else did we expect? This is what soul-searching looks like. Or is this actually beyond repair in your mind, Carter? Well,

Carter 48:49

I'm not going to predict that there'll be two parties that exit this because I don't think there'll be two parties. But this is a battle for two different parties. And if Charest was to win or Patrick Brown was to win, I don't think there's much of a place for Pierre Polyev. And if Pierre Polyev wins, there is no place for Jean Charest. That's just absolute. And it's

Carter 49:12

almost like each side

Zain 49:13

side wants to make that clear, that they don't necessarily care about the post-leadership healing that happens in political institutions.

Carter 49:21

Right. I mean, we thought we saw some of this in the battle with Kenney, right?

Carter 49:26

right? Where, you know, how could Doug Schweitzer fall back into Kenney's cabinet? And he did. And the

Carter 49:33

the only person who wasn't able to was Brian Jean, because Brian Jean was fighting like

Carter 49:37

these two are, right? right? He was fighting for control of a different type of party. And this is a battle for two different visions of the conservative movement. And

Carter 49:51

doesn't lend itself to being something where people participate and put the

Carter 49:58

the party's interests first because they're not the same party.

Zain 50:02

Corey, this Scorsese approach here,

Zain 50:04

beyond repairing your mind?

Corey 50:07

it's interesting to scenario plan out what happens the day after this leadership it will there will be a lot of pressure to hang together because of course it's not so distant the reform party pc splits of the 90s that led to a bunch of very easy liberal majority governments but

Corey 50:23

interesting dynamics just beneath the surface here i've talked to a couple of conservative insiders um i will just full disclosure more aligned with the charrette camp who say they

Corey 50:32

don't think regardless of who wins that

Corey 50:34

that this it sticks together in the same way like nobody's calling afterwards yeah

Corey 50:39

yeah you know a return to

Corey 50:40

to what was but they think there could be a lot of people taking their ball and going home and the idea of third parties here we are again i guess seventh parties is not inconceivable um the uh the thing that i i really latch on to as a data a point from coletto's work abacus's work uh that came out on support for pierre polyev's message is

Corey 51:03

is it's actually higher in the ppc than the conservative party of canada and

Corey 51:08

and that's interesting because

Corey 51:10

because that does suggest to me there's such a natural constituency if he decided he wanted to carry the cause you

Corey 51:16

you know forward uh replace maxime bernier i don't know how realistic that is but when you've got elements like that floating out there things can get crazy in a hurry that's for I don't think that he could win his seat as a PPC member. Not there, not in Ottawa, but creates some weird dynamics, to be sure. sure.

Zain 51:33

Corey, I'm going to stick with you for our next one. Fine, fabulous, or fucked? This reaction by Justin Trudeau today on the news that the Bank of Canada's benchmark interest rate was raised by half a percentage point to 1% on Wednesday in its latest move to rate and inflation. Trudeau said, in our budget 2022, we'd put forward a plan to address the housing crisis that too many families are living through. He also said, we know that there isn't any one thing that government can do about the high cost of living. Every family is a different situation. The approach we have taken has been multifaceted. Trudeau said that his government is investing billions on partnering with cities to accelerate housing. And that starts with, instead of talking about it, as some conservatives are doing, it's good to see other parties agreeing with us that this is the best path forward. This kind of triangulates some of the housing conversation, but this also kind of speaks to the big news of the Bank of Canada hiking the benchmark interest rate by half a percentage point. Corey, the

Zain 52:31

the response by Justin Trudeau, as I just read, fine, fabulous, or fucked?

Corey 52:38

The actual words are fine, but what's underneath it is fucked, right? So a couple of things. Explain it

Zain 52:44

it to us. Yeah.

Corey 52:45

Obviously, interest rates going up 50 bips is going to be big news. Hasn't happened in 20 years. That's a pretty big climb, an equivalent climb expected in just a couple of months here. Certainly makes me think I want to lock in my mortgage again. Again, there'll be lots of Canadians thinking like that, thinking about what it will mean to the bottom line.

Corey 53:03

Historically, still very, very, very low interest rates, I think needs to be said. But

Corey 53:08

But what's fucked about it is, here's

Corey 53:10

here's the thing. There's two concepts here that are getting blurred together, affordability and inflation. And obviously, they're very closely tied. There are things government can do on affordability, right? They can reduce, there's very few kind of like free

Corey 53:25

free things you can do on affordability. don't cost any money they just make life easier you know eliminate some red tape quote unquote in some cases maybe uh interprovincial trade barriers perhaps could make things go down in cost but um

Corey 53:38

um the reality is a lot of this is just tied to inflation and it's weird inflation it's supply side inflation but i

Corey 53:46

i think a lot of people just

Corey 53:47

just sort of hand wave or don't think about why interest rates going up reduces inflation and it's something that is it's not a secret i mean I mean, economists talk about it openly. You can go to the Bank of Canada website.

Corey 54:00

Booms don't die of old age. Booms are strangled. And they are strangled when all of a sudden the economy is going so fast that the markets can't effectively keep up with it, grossly simplified here. And so prices get out of control. So when the bank is raising interest rates, what the bank is doing is trying to slow the economy down. They are trying to reduce demand. They're making money more expensive, which means you're less likely to borrow and buy things, which means you're less likely to, to borrow and invest. If you're a corporation, you're reducing economic activity, right?

Corey 54:32

So it's fucked because what he's implying he can do, he can't do, uh, because if he does it, then inflation will not, it won't succeed on the inflation front. If he somehow manages to make the economy go even faster as the bank of Canada is trying to slow it down, it

Corey 54:46

it doesn't work. And inflation continues to proceed apace, right? right? Maybe

Corey 54:49

Maybe not quite to the extent of its supply side inflation. But I guess my point is, he's promising something he cannot do or else he will be failing by default.

Zain 55:01

Carter, same question to you. Fine, fabulous, or fucked, the Trudeau responds to the Bank of Canada hiking its benchmark interest rate.

Carter 55:09

Well, I think that, you know, I mean, I

Carter 55:12

actually heard it this morning and I heard by 1%, not to 1%. I'd kind of forgotten, but it's at 1%. I mean, I'm

Carter 55:21

I'm old enough to remember 20%, 18%, 14% interest rates to try and halt other inflation and economic problems. We've had a historic period of low interest rates. We are still in a historic period of low interest rates. um this

Carter 55:39

this will this be enough i don't know you know i i don't know when we stop to start to turn the inflation uh dials back to something more regular but cory's

Carter 55:51

cory's not wrong i mean cory's verbose but he's not wrong i mean he's he he's he's he's articulated the problem and the problem is that we want a booming economy because that helps us but we want a booming economy without without any of the consequences of a booming economy. And those of us in Alberta, I think, are perhaps more attuned to the consequences of a booming economy. You know, you have different prices in your Tim Hortons in Alberta because we're paying wages to people at a different rate in our booms, right? And that boom, and you're like, oh man, I don't want to pay more for my coffee, but I don't care because I got so much money. And you can do it, but it creates other havoc. It creates housing problems. Fort McMurray went through its own housing initiatives and housing problems. All of these things to say that we

Carter 56:40

we often want things that aren't in our best interest.

Carter 56:43

We all want to raise. So if we want to raise, that's great, but prices are going to go up. So

Carter 56:48

So the economy always will march forward in this kind of lockstep where everything, if everybody gets a wage increase, then prices go up, taxes go up. Everybody wants the world's best healthcare system. No one wants to pay the taxes, right? Right. So you want your snow cleared more frequently, you're going to pay higher property taxes. It is a direct correlation. And that is a that's

Carter 57:16

that's a real challenge for people to see how that direct correlation fits, because we've been told and in Alberta, we've actually lived this idea that you can have something for nothing.

Carter 57:26

It just doesn't work that way. The something for nothing model eventually fails. And when it fails, it's super hard to get out of. Corey,

Zain 57:35

Corey, what do you think of the Polyev response here? He's saying bringing the oversized rate height of 0.5% mortgages and loan and other borrowing now much more expensive. This is just inflation. You can even comment on that if you'd like. Again, causing pocketbook pain for Canadians. And then also going back to the well that he has that anytime anything related to inflation shows up, he takes credit for it. I warned about the impact of rising interest rates over a year ago on Canadian money printed debt. The Liberals ignored it. now taxpayers are getting squeezed. The PR response on this.

Corey 58:07

Yeah. From a political point of view, fine. The words are fine in a political sense, just as Justin Trudeau's words are fine in

Corey 58:14

political sense, but it is fucked. I mean, we are not living in truthful times. I think that we all know that. This is almost understatement at this point. It's true across the board. It's more true with some politicians than others. I'm not creating a flat equivalency across here, but But this

Corey 58:30

this is wrong. This is not accurate. Our level of inflation in Canada is lower than most of our peer countries here.

Corey 58:37

This is supply-side driven inflation based on supply chain challenges that are global in nature. It is nothing that the government did here. And when you talk about the government pretty much, I get so frustrated because the

Corey 58:49

the answer is just

Corey 58:50

just like it's not in reach for most people. And I'm not trying to talk down to people. I'm saying it just requires a conversation that's not deeply intuitive, but

Corey 58:59

but when the bank is making more money available in that sense through any kind of quantitative easing exercise, purchasing of bonds, anything like that, they're doing that because money has gotten tight somewhere else. The overall supply of money is a complicated thing, and the bank is not blind to it, but what they're often trying to do is offset of a decline in access to money in one area by putting it in another. But bottom

Corey 59:23

bottom line here, it's

Corey 59:25

it's a total mislead as to what the job of the Bank of Canada is. And it's a total misdirection as to why the Bank of Canada did it in the first place. The suggestion that the bank purchasing bonds of the governments so that the government could buy more stuff, that's wrong. That's not accurate. They're buying government bonds so that the people who purchase those bonds have money free to buy other riskier assets, commercial assets, corporate assets. And I know he knows this. I know he knows this just as I know Justin Trudeau knows the purpose of a rate hike is to cool down the economy.

Corey 59:58

But nobody is talking about these things because it's so apolitical to do it. And

Corey 1:00:03

And we live in a world with no consequences right now for making statements that are deeply inaccurate on that sense.

Zain 1:00:09

Carter, the Pierre Polyev response talking about, I warned about this, liberals ignored it, taxpayers are getting squeezed on it. This is causing pocketbook pain. What do you think of the peer response on here as we finish up?

Carter 1:00:22

Are we surprised? I mean, Jason Kenney swept into office by suggesting that Rachel Notley had somehow caused the global downturn on energy prices. This is politics.

Carter 1:00:36

politics. You are not responsible for the situation that you inherit, but you will will be held responsible by the voters. And the quickest path to electoral victory is to blame your opposition for situations that aren't in their control.

Carter 1:00:53

So you may as well do it. I mean, to blame them for things that they actually did wrong is

Carter 1:00:59

is often too complex and actually catches you in the activity that you wish to go to. So I think that this is the challenge of politics. How do we elevate this game to a place where we actually are doing things that are honest and truthful if the voters won't come with us? I'm not blaming us. The voters don't come.

Zain 1:01:24

The disdain continues. Corey, talk to me about this. First, react to what Carter said. But then is there a message? Let's use one of these two as a case study. Let's say Trudeau, for example, that you would have said, here's a politically advantageous message that also is rooted in truth. Is

Zain 1:01:39

Is there something that you would have gone with, giving you the space to think about that, also knowing Corey Hogan MBA, that you would have liked to lean into?

Corey 1:01:52

I guess where I'm disappointed with myself is Trudeau's message in particular.

Corey 1:01:55

If you look at it, the words he chose, he chose very carefully to talk about what the government can do around affordability. He's not talking about government's ability to tackle inflation. Inflation, right, correct, correct. The conflation is part of the strategy, you would say. So in a strictly legal reading of what he said, that's why I said it's fine. It's fine. It'll play fine. What's fucked is what he's implying he can do, which is not something that he is actually able to do because then he would be working at cross purposes with the Bank of Canada and that would just be, you know, atomizing

Corey 1:02:24

atomizing money for no reason on both sides, right? You know, you'd be draining the economy and also not doing anything about inflation.

Corey 1:02:33

You know, I guess the thing I want to say about Stephen, which maybe I'll just pick one piece out of it agree with it strongly is like it's not super new that politicians make things up like bullshit is not bullshit

Corey 1:02:44

bullshit is not something we discovered in 2006 right but

Corey 1:02:48

but we are in i what concerns me is that we are in aggressively unserious times and unserious people can go very far and there used to be a bit of a guardrail where if you just went way outside of what could actually be done somebody was going to say that's bullshit and there were maybe fewer media outlets You'd be called out in the Wall Street Journal, called out in the New York Times, whatever it is, right?

Corey 1:03:10

And you just don't have those kinds of protections now. And there were some bad things about those protections. There was some gatekeeping, to be sure. But you can also see sometimes how they saved us from our worst populist instincts. So it's the big question of these times, right? right?

Corey 1:03:28

Everything's changed so much. There has been a democratization of information and of voice.

Corey 1:03:34

Is that all good? Do we like that as much as we thought we would? This is the question of our times. Yeah.

Zain 1:03:40

We're going to leave that segment there. Moving on to our final segment are over under at our lightning round. Stephen Carter, we do this for you. This entire enterprise is for you. Thank you, Corey. Thank you.

Zain 1:03:50

I hope this is a short version. No,

Carter 1:03:54

for a while this is gonna go for another 30 seconds is this from the live show because it was like this right this is unbelievable not for

Zain 1:04:02

for the live show carter you got a smattering of applause at best oh

Carter 1:04:06

oh no they love this carter

Carter 1:04:08

carter they love this yeah

Carter 1:04:09

yeah can you like pull it down like is there a way to take it out this

Zain 1:04:13

this seems like an encore what is what is this called on the soundboard is this the encore clap it's called cheering it's called cheering well Steven Carter, on the heels of the cheering, Pierre Poglieva owning the inflation issue, overrated or underrated in your mind?

Carter 1:04:29

It's underrated. I mean, anytime a pipsqueak like him can own an issue over top of the leader of the opposition, he owned it before O'Toole was gone. He owned it over the prime minister. He's owned it over the leader of the NDP. be. This guy, he's

Carter 1:04:50

he's owning this issue. He's owning many of his shares in a way that is showing that he's got the real skill

Carter 1:04:56

skill to do so. I mean, I think that also it's underrated because the consequences are so big, right? If this guy continues to be able to go unchecked, we have some significant problems coming in our country.

Zain 1:05:12

Goy, overrated, underrated, Pierre-Paul, are you ever owning the inflation issue?

Corey 1:05:15

well first of all i want a little bit of praise for leaning off of the soundboard until the last segment yeah congratulations yeah

Carter 1:05:24

you did a really good job thank you

Corey 1:05:28

but i would say i

Corey 1:05:32

underrated uh it is underrated but also in some ways the way the question is posed almost makes it feel as though he is just kind of a lucky benefactor that he just happens to be here and this happens to be the big issue. He's helped make this the big issue in this country. I would

Corey 1:05:48

big fundamentals there, but he identified them pretty quickly and he got on board with them and he's presenting solutions to them, whether those solutions will work or not, whether they're consistent with his articulated worldview. These are different questions, but he is right there in the mix because it's his mix. So underrated for sure.

Zain 1:06:06

And Corey, same question. Well, same topic, Pierre-Paul. you ever his crowd sizes overrated

Zain 1:06:10

overrated or underrated from your perspective uh with

Corey 1:06:16

you know what hmm

Zain 1:06:18

could argue each let me let me throw out two arguments here

Corey 1:06:21

ultimately i think it's underrated because this is just a size we haven't seen in canadian politics so it

Corey 1:06:26

it denotes something it denotes something uh about changing canadian politics making us more like a u.s model we're

Corey 1:06:33

we're always just a few years behind the united states we've seen this in the the United States. If we play that forward and we see where we're going to go, if we're following the same track as them, that's

Corey 1:06:42

that's a big deal. And that's something we should keep our eye on here. So that's the underrated version.

Corey 1:06:47

I would say overrated is also on the table though, because

Corey 1:06:51

he's quite clearly made it a strategy to suck all of the oxygen out of the room by having the biggest possible events all of the time. I don't know how much of the campaign infrastructure is designed to pull people to those events i do suspect there's a significant viral component to it obviously getting 5 000 people to an event is like it's tough just to make the bandwidth of phone calls you would need to do to invite 5 000 people right

Corey 1:07:18

it costs a lot of money to put events together like that big events with big spaces with big presence and media risers and and all of that. And I suspect

Corey 1:07:27

suspect it's translated into memberships. I suspect for him, it's more holding a lead anyhow. So if he could make less interest in the other candidates, that's a win in its own right. But it's

Corey 1:07:37

it's a tactic, and

Corey 1:07:38

and it's a choice. And whether that choice will pay off or not, I suspect yes.

Corey 1:07:43

But let's not pretend that this is just entirely a

Corey 1:07:47

a groundswell of support from nowhere.

Zain 1:07:50

Carter, the Pure Poly Evercrowd site is overrated or underrated?

Carter 1:07:53

I think it's probably underrated. I think that it's forcing the, I mean, I don't disagree with what Corey was saying, but I think that it's forcing the other candidates to change their tactics because they can't compete on this level. You know, you're not going to see many photographs from Jean Charest's campaign of events that he's had. That's going to shift the way that he has to run his campaign. It has to be, you know, we've seen better ideas and better policies coming out of him in the last week, I suspect because he had to. He had to double down on that because he wasn't going to get anywhere on, have you seen the size of Pierre's thing? You should see the size of my thing.

Carter 1:08:28

That's not going to go anywhere for him.

Zain 1:08:31

Carter, I'm going to stick with you. The personal sort of scorched earth style politics and the long-term damage to the conservative party, overrated or underrated in your mind?

Carter 1:08:40

Underrated. I think that this could be the beginning of the end. I mean, I think we're seeing the breakup of the UCP here in Alberta in real time. I think we We could be seeing the breakup of the CPC. Keeping in mind, these aren't the same groups of people. And, you know, everybody always talks about how good PR would be, you know, proportional representation. We should go that way. Proportional representation, if implemented at a provincial level, you know, or federally by using the provinces as map, it just delivers eight different conservative parties and eight different progressive parties, each one regionally tailored. You know, it would be a disaster. uh so i i suspect that we're heading back into the old reform bloc quebecois um

Carter 1:09:24

um progressive conservative days where we're going to see multiple multiple parties from the right cory

Zain 1:09:29

cory the score short bare knuckle politics for the conservative party long-term damage overrated underrated underrated

Corey 1:09:36

underrated i don't know if the penny has even dropped for the leadership campaigns pains, what this could mean when we play it forward. But

Corey 1:09:43

there is the possibility of an outright schism.

Corey 1:09:47

And there is the probability that there are some deep, deep hurt feelings and ongoing problems for the conservatives on the unity front.

Zain 1:09:55

Boy, speaking of which, an extension to that conversation of sorts, how worried are you right now on a scale of one to 10 if you are one Maxime Bernier? If you are are seeing what's happening with Pierre Polyever, if you're reflecting back on the poll numbers you mentioned, the crowd sizes that Pierre is having, how worried are you? How easy are you sleeping these days? On a scale of one to 10, one being not worried at all, 10 being the most worried. Maxime Bernier, how worried is he, Corey?

Corey 1:10:23

I think, well, that depends on what his goals are here. If his goals are to remain the leader of an autonomous People's Party of Canada that continues to grow in size, then it's got to be a 10. I mean, when

Corey 1:10:34

when we see 93% support for that message that Pierre Polyev is putting out for his launch from PPC members, that's probably higher than anything that Bernier's got from PPC members. He's probably the most popular politician with PPC supporters, he being Pierre

Corey 1:10:50

Pierre Polyev at this point.

Corey 1:10:52

But if his goal is to move conservative politics, the movement more to the right, maybe even find a rapprochement, maybe even find a place place within a conservative party that is big enough for this group that was the PPC or some version of it.

Corey 1:11:07

God, maybe it's your way back to relevance, Max. Instead of being sitting there at 6%, you get to be a cabinet minister and prime minister. Pierre Polyev's government might sound pretty good at this point.

Zain 1:11:18

Carter, how worried is Maxime Bernier right now on a scale of 1 to 10?

Carter 1:11:24

How worried is he? I mean, I don't think he's that worried if Pierre wins. I think he's more worried if Pierre loses. I think that there will always be a group of conservatives who don't want to stand with their mainstream counterparts. And so moving away from the PPC might be a bit challenging.

Carter 1:11:42

But where does Pierre go if he loses? If this is splinting, the PPC could could morph into something that's different that's led by Pierre.

Carter 1:11:54

You know, like the world of conservative politics could

Carter 1:11:59

be entering a place where they have to rethink the entirety of all the parties.

Zain 1:12:05

We're going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 982 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velgey. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we'll see you next time.

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