Transcript
Zain
0:02
This is a strategist episode 951. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen, the Shiv Carter. How's it going, Carter? What's going on? I'm calling you Shiv from now on.
Carter
0:13
I don't understand the reference.
Zain
0:15
Corey, do you understand
Corey
0:16
understand the reference? I understand the reference. I'm
Carter
0:18
I'm assuming the Shiv is some sort of basketball player, the b-ball, put
Carter
0:22
put the ball in the bucket. Is
Carter
0:25
Is that what I'm talking about?
Zain
0:26
about? Yeah, no, Shiv and Ron Ornette. That's just ignorant. Ornest. Ron Ornest, Carter.
Zain
0:34
Did you bother looking it up afterwards just so you could add to your base of knowledge or are you going to remain ignorant? No,
Carter
0:39
I was comfortable with my one fact that I knew that Ron Ornest was a basketball
Carter
0:46
So I'm doing pretty well. One fact, baby. That's all you need.
Corey
0:50
Doesn't even matter if it's right.
Carter
0:51
Doesn't even matter if it's right.
Zain
0:53
In fact, it's better if it's not right.
Carter
0:55
Better if it's not right. Right. That's how people vote. One fact that's not correct.
Carter
1:00
That's how we got Trump. Speaking
Zain
1:01
Speaking of not being right, Carter, are you ready to take your victory lap and then walk of shame simultaneously? Because as we have often said on this show, Stephen Carter is great at strategy, horrible at predictions. You made the case last episode that Jason Kenney should sign the papers for one Brian Jean. He's indicated that he will. But then you boldly said that Jason and Kenny will 100% not sign the papers because that's a fucking stupid thing to do. Once again, Stephen Carter proving good at strategy, bad at predictions.
Carter
1:33
You know what? The prediction doesn't matter. It's the brilliance of the strategies. That's why people turn in. People
Carter
1:38
People tune in to listen to the brilliant strategies, not the predictions. We're
Zain
1:43
I'm going to actually just use that and get us started. Let's move it on to our first segment. Our first segment, the bickering continues. Corey, what is your response? Stephen Carter is taking a victory lap. on Jason Kenney saying, yeah, sure, I'll sign the papers of one Brian Jean. But then again, I would endorse whoever the members choose and then sideswiping Jean by saying, I'm sure that the local members will have some questions about the reliability of one Brian Jean, given that he did not complete his term in Parliament, he did not complete his term as MLA, and of course, that he lost as leader. What do you make of what one Jason Kenney's stance was quite literally on On the day our episode got released, hours later.
Corey
2:24
I think he's trying to have his cake and eat it, too. I think it's crazy that he's even suggesting that he would allow. We've heard your point. We've
Carter
2:31
We've heard your wrong analysis.
Carter
2:33
We don't need to hear your wrong analysis again.
Corey
2:36
But let's just restate the obvious here. This is somebody who has said that they are actively against his leadership. And he has the authority as leader. Okay, let's put it this way. As a leader, you get to sign papers or not sign papers. And that's totally separate from whether or not they're a criminal or not, because that's all covered in a different process, the green light process. If you are not going to withhold your signature in this situation, under
Corey
3:02
under what situation would you withhold your signature? If
Carter
3:05
If you understood the Conservative Party and the United Conservative Party itself, you know that you can't withhold your signature because the grassroots dominates. If the grassroots wants it, then you have to give it. That's the way the party works. This
Corey
3:18
This constitution was written like
Corey
3:20
like two years ago, three years
Carter
3:21
years ago, four years ago. Yeah, it was cobbled together from bad ideas. That's all that constitution was.
Carter
3:27
There's something bigger than a constitution, Corey, and that's values. Well,
Corey
3:31
Well, and I'll tell you the value that is in display here is the value of self-preservation or living the day, I suppose. I think what this really tells us, this gives us some insight into just how challenged it is right now, right? right? Because if you were in a much stronger position, there's no way you would put up with this shit. Absolutely no way.
Zain
3:52
Carter, this is also not the clean, keep
Zain
3:56
keep your enemies close strategy. It's a bit of a side
Zain
3:59
side swipe. It's not a definitive, yeah, sure, welcome him in. What do you think of Kenny's messaging that we heard on Friday?
Carter
4:07
I think that just weakens him and makes him look like, I'm trying to undermine this guy. I'm sure the constituents will have something to say about how bad this guy is when they don't have something to say about how bad this guy is he's going to look weaker so i'm not sure why he's taking that position but it just kind of you know if he's going to be if the cory's point he's going to be forced to sign these papers anyways um because he's so weak then further weakening yourself by pointing you know saying that the members will have something to say well when they say something they're going to say the wrong thing so don't don't
Carter
4:40
make yourself look like you don't even even know what the membership's going to actually do.
Zain
4:44
Corey, this is the classic slippery slope argument that you're bringing up, being like, if he's going to sign Brian Jean's papers, you know, where's the bottom? And I feel like the bottom should be Zane Velji for Alberta Party leader running for a UCP nomination at some point somewhere to test out the bottom for the UCP. But Corey, now that this is where the, you know, last time we were doing scenarios, which which scenarios we should analyze and effectively might present themselves. Now that we know we're here, what is Brian Jean's next move? Does he have a next move in him, given the comment that he heard from Jason Kenney at the podium on Friday?
Corey
5:26
Yeah, his next move is to run for the nomination and win and say, I guess they weren't that concerned, leader.
Zain
5:34
It's not to handle this head on. It's not to let the bickering that that Kenny's trying to start from the podium continue, but to put your head down and win. Is that right, Carter? You would agree? Yeah,
Carter
5:46
Yeah, I mean, the best revenge is served cold. And this is one of those opportunities where it's right there. Just go and win. Like the leader is not going to have much to say about the actual nomination race. If Brian Jean wants to win, then Brian Jean needs to activate his community and pretend there is no, you know, leadership
Carter
6:05
leadership aspiration. He just needs to serve the people of Fort McMurray. So I almost said Grand Prairie. Whoa, that would have been terrible. So, you know, this is a great opportunity for him just to start to ignore Jason Kenney. Of course, I suspect he won't because I don't think that Brian Jean is that talented a politician. But, you know, if he if he is a talented politician, he'll focus on the all politics is local adage. Corey,
Zain
6:33
Corey, let's talk about Kenny. I want to talk about Kenny about another thing as well that happened on Friday. But let's round this particular item off with Jason Kenny in regards to any
Zain
6:42
any advice for him now that he's put out his having his cake and eating it too. He's picked a strategy, so to speak. Would you just tell him to shut the fuck up about this from here on in that there's no upside? side? Or would you tell him to keep talking, keep poking, see if Gene pokes back, that it's actually useful to you, as you'd mentioned maybe last time in the confines of your leadership review, to actually have a choice versus a referendum? What would you suggest to Jason Kenney at this point now that he's picked the lane? Not your ideal lane, but he's picked this one.
Corey
7:10
Yeah, I mean, I can see what he's trying to do, or I think I can, which is he is trying to put a few things out into the universe and A, get reaction from Brian Gene, and or B, have other people carry his water from this point forward, which is easier if Brian Jean reacts, right? They can start building that narrative that in many ways is what we were talking about, this idea that Brian Jean's not a team player, he's in it for himself, blah, blah, blah, all the way through. I would say that from this point forward, most of what needs to happen needs to happen behind closed doors, not behind microphones. And he should be seeing, not directly, but through his intermediaries, If he can't make the ride a little bit more difficult for Brian Jean, change the conversation in Fort McMurray. If he wins the nomination, maybe at least hobble him through it. If there's enough questions that are brought up, if there's enough of a fuss that's kicked up, maybe it's at that point he says, well, as leader, you know, I have to take
Corey
8:04
take very seriously some of these accusations that have been before it or whatever the hell it is. But it does feel like it was a bit of, you know, taking his boot and throwing some dust up. And will it work? I doubt it. But if he felt that he couldn't withhold the nomination, it's probably the next best thing. Carter,
Zain
8:22
Carter, anything in your mind that could help Jason Kenney make his strategy work? You think it makes him weaker. Is there anything that could help him pick this fight more effectively or help him succeed in maybe picking this fight with Brian Jean?
Carter
8:37
No, I think that he should be a better premier. I think that that's ultimately what his only path forward is, right? He is going to face a leadership review in March. That leadership review is, if it were held today, as the pollsters say, things wouldn't work out particularly well. But it's not held today. So Jason Kenney has several months to put some sort of an emphasis on what his premiership looks like. And if he's able to do that, I mean, one imagines that the fourth wave of COVID is just about at the at the end. One hopes that there is no fifth wave around Christmas or at the end of Christmas. So if we're able to finally
Carter
9:17
finally get the best winter ever, then maybe we can start to see the resurrection of Jason Kenney as premier, because that's ultimately his only path forward. His path forward is not the best opposition to Brian Jean's nomination race in Fort McMurray. So,
Zain
9:37
So, Carter, to be clear then, from your perspective, keep quiet on this, say nothing, never bring it up, Fort McMurray, like just, you know, carry on business as
Carter
9:47
as usual. UCP is excited about having a great candidate. I trust the members. we're going to win that by-election and we're going to be showing people how we're going to hold on to government that's my job as premier is making sure that we're holding on to government and i'm going to continue to fulfill that role as long as the members of the ucp offer me that opportunity cory
Zain
10:09
cory you're smirking well
Corey
10:10
well you've got me wondering if there's not like a bear hug strategy here where he just shows love for brian jean and says brian jean's a continuation of my policies and the ucp's policies oh that'd be really fun and
Corey
10:23
just makes it more difficult for brian jean to win in the actual by-election against so wait it's it's
Zain
10:28
it's it's jason kelly acknowledging the fact that he's a liability and dragging brian jean down i'm sorry i just want to make sure well that's what you're suggesting no
Corey
10:38
no zane potentially do
Corey
10:41
if the premier thinks that his days are numbered anyways and he thinks fuck brian jean i hate this guy this guy has been trying to knife me for the past two years or more.
Corey
10:53
I mean, it's fun, if nothing else. I don't think it's what's happening, but it's fun. It's fun to think about. Carter, is that what's happening?
Carter
11:00
I don't think that's what's happening. But I do think it's fun to think about for sure. But I think that the best path for both of them is to pretend the other doesn't exist.
Zain
11:08
Let's move it on to another Alberta story. I want to talk about Jason Kenney losing a minister, losing his ag minister in one, Devin Dreeschen, a young up-and-coming minister out of central Alberta. His father's the MP of the area. If you've heard of Devin Dreeschen, well, you may not have heard of him if you're outside of Alberta, but you may have seen a picture of him, because the photo of Devin Dreeschen wearing a Make America Great Again hat, holding up a drink, has kind of become one of the iconic photos out of the UCP. I think that's That's fair to say. Oh, absolutely.
Carter
11:40
absolutely. It is. And
Zain
11:41
And I think it's it's been seen more and more of the last couple of days simply because Devin Treachan is now gone as ag minister. He resigns after admitting that he's got an alcohol problem. Hopefully, you know, the former minister gets all the help that he needs. But this is after reporting by CBC that indicated several things, including several binge drinking sessions within his office after session, often and sometimes during the day, and was part of a broader lawsuit against the premier's office in regards to a toxic workplace culture lawsuit brought on by a former staffer. Carter, you know, let's start with the raw politics of losing a minister. Let's actually start here and then drill down into specifics because you've been in one of these offices. Losing a minister that you yourself did not want to lose and or push out, that was not engineered by you on the inside. Give me the cost of losing a minister to like the workflow and the work of a ministry. I know this is not where this story is being covered, but I really like to cover this from the perspective of what does this do to the work of a pretty important file in Alberta, in the ag file? Like, what will this do? And it could be any ministry, but this is a pretty reasonably important ministry. Losing a minister, let's start here with the conversation. What does it mean? I
Carter
12:58
I think, unfortunately, in today's world, losing a minister isn't really that important anymore, because the premiers already have such a, the premiers or the first ministers, if you will, have such control over their files. They are, you know, they're sending the marching orders for the minister uh the deputy minister of that particular uh uh ministry
Carter
13:18
ministry is is reporting back to the deputy minister of executive council the command and control structure that's been put in place is is such that the minister herself or himself um is just simply a cog that faces outwards towards the general population the bureaucrats the ones who you know the the The Corey Hogans, as Corey will point out, the bureaucrats are the ones actually making the world work. And those bureaucrats have the same mandate letter. They have the same marching orders from the deputy minister of executive council. And those things are still going to happen. What's not going to happen is the public face of the minister going out and meeting with all the various groups and all the stakeholders. Because realistically, that seems to me in today's governing structure to be the most important role of any minister. Make sure that your stakeholders like our government. That's your job. And this minister dropped the ball. And I think the good work of the Alberta government or the work that the bureaucrats are doing will continue on within the parameters that the premier had already set. So I wouldn't be too fussed if I was, you know, in the
Carter
14:35
the agriculture industry. What I would be fussed is that who do I call now? Who do I call when I have a problem? Because the gap
Carter
14:43
gap is really with the person
Carter
14:45
person who's supposed to be representing the government.
Zain
14:48
So they do have a new minister in place when Nate Horner was sworn in just that same day. But Corey, I want to get your thoughts on this. Losing a minister, Carter kind of says, with the command and control structure that we're seeing from modern premiers or prime ministers' offices, not that big of a deal. But explain to me, maybe from some of your experience and knowledge, what losing a minister in such a sudden manner might mean to the broader functions of government and perhaps that ministry itself. Yeah,
Corey
15:15
Yeah, well, first of all, like every other province, apparently there are only 10 families in Alberta. We've replaced a Grecian with a Horner. I mean, these are both political dynasties.
Zain
15:25
dynasties. The third Horner in Alberta to be Ag Minister. Yeah,
Corey
15:28
Yeah, okay. That's amazing. I didn't know that. That's a hat tip
Zain
15:32
tip to Jason Markosoff from Maclean's Magazine, posting that on Twitter. But I think the one we'd be familiar with is Doug Horner. And I believe there was a previous, was it an uncle? That was maybe a dad. There you go. It was his father, Doug Horner's
Corey
15:45
Okay, so, you know, we don't we don't have the the Rogers of the world, but we've got our own little, little cast of characters here.
Corey
15:54
What does it mean to lose a minister? What does it mean to lose a minister? Stephen sort of said it all the minister is that point of contact to the community. I think that feeling of I don't know who to call now is probably more pronounced than the actual challenges because it's in many cases still the same chief of staff. it's still the same group of people working in the minister's office who will allow all of that to proceed apace and of course premiers control so much now prime ministers control so much now it's just not the same as it used to be you used to talk about losing a powerful minister and you'd think oh man that's gonna you know that's gonna be chaos for a while i'm just not so sure that's the case anymore no
Corey
16:33
um you know it was probably always overblown frankly but certainly i can tell you um there is there's just so much machinery behind the scenes that continues the thing that you get disrupted is relationships right
Corey
16:46
and the other thing is the minute there's a vacancy in cabinet and
Corey
16:50
and i think the premier was wise to very quickly fill it with the associate minister and just sort of avoid any jockeying but you get jockey and you get people in normal situations saying well that means everybody's going to move around in the musical chairs and and i wouldn't mind being able to take a seat when the music stops so um that that's probably the the you know the main effect in terms of operating but losing a minister does have sort of an optical blow to it still right
Corey
17:21
you still have this idea that you've quote-unquote drawn blood ironically i think that you're less likely to see a minister resign for scandal these days because people are so so seized with the optics of it. And we're in these times where I think this notion of honor and politics is seen as kind of quaint and old-fashioned, and ministers just don't resign like they used to. But, you know, it's something that people will be talking about for a while. It's never good to lose a minister. But in terms of the actual functioning of government,
Corey
17:51
I don't know, not the hugest deal.
Zain
17:52
Carter, the reason this minister is gone, because there's been several claims that The staff saw behavior that ranged from a few drinks to heavy nights of consumption, often very sloppy. They said, I'm quoting now from the CBC piece, they said when the minister and his staff would pull out alcohol, the doors to the office were often locked to prevent others from accidentally wandering in. Two said it was common to hear the refrain, quote, unquote, shields up as a signal to lock the doors. Once the doors were locked, a code word for gaining access to the office was sometimes decided upon. The employee said, Carter, let's talk about this because, you know, we discuss a lot of strategy on this show, but you two have particular insight into the halls of power quite literally. Alcohol consumption politics seems hand in hand. I mean, I think that's fair, I think, to say. From something like this, would you, let
Zain
18:42
let me just put this question out to you as bluntly as I can. again, abnormal from your perspective, what you read and what you've seen from the perspective of the reporting thus far?
Carter
18:52
I don't think so. I mean, keep in mind the people who are working in these jobs generally are working longer days than the average person would work, right? Especially when you're dealing with session
Carter
19:00
session where you've got long evenings or whatever. You're having dinner at
Carter
19:04
at the legislature. You're at your meetings for breakfast. You're there for, you're
Carter
19:09
you're you're in your office or you're at the facility for or at the legislature wherever 12 14 16 hour days and people
Carter
19:19
people drink people drink at home people drink at restaurants people have alcohol all
Carter
19:25
all the time and so
Carter
19:27
a lot of people would have a drink at the legislature a lot of people would have more than one drink at the legislature and and the the stories of premier's past of how how they've, you know, essentially their drinking buddies became their cabinets. And, you
Carter
19:41
you know, you can point to, you know, everybody would think that I was talking about Ralph Klein when I say that. I'm not talking about Ralph Klein.
Carter
19:47
There's many different governments of many different stripes that the drinking buddies form the base of the actual group.
Carter
19:57
The challenge is, how is that drinking perceived today versus, you know, in the past, days past, and how does that drinking manifest itself? And it appears in this particular case to have manifested itself in some pretty ill behaviors, some pretty negative stuff. And if the lawsuit, because I understand there's a lawsuit that's been filed against him, if
Carter
20:20
if that harassment claim and then the lawsuit goes through, then drinking is
Carter
20:27
is not an excuse for being an asshole, right?
Carter
20:29
right? Right. Drinking sometimes makes assholes behavior become more outlandish and more noticeable. But the
Carter
20:37
the drinking is just the you know, you don't not everybody who drinks is an asshole. And I know that in the Redford government for the moment and a half I was there, people drank. But I don't recall seeing people who are assholes. We did have one minister who we
Carter
20:57
drank too much and wasn't a minister by the end. of you know the the transition so um but that you
Carter
21:05
you know that's a fairly normal situation with with people um but i don't think that drinking in and of itself is the problem i don't think that you know you're not gonna just set a rule it says no alcohol in any minister's office that's probably not going to work but what will what should work is you know is this drinking bringing out the inner prick of the people who are drinking. And it looks in this particular case like it was. And by the way, shields up? Come on. What is this? Grade nine?
Zain
21:39
Corey, anything to add to that in terms of seeing consumption of alcohol across perhaps multiple governments, you know, in these halls of power? And anything to add to what Carter said here? Yeah,
Corey
21:51
you know, I've worked for
Corey
21:53
for the Liberal Party of Canada. I've worked for NDP governments. I've worked for UCP governments. I can tell you, with
Corey
22:01
with varying degrees, I'm not trying to both sides this thing, but drinking, substance abuse, it's a problem in politics, right?
Corey
22:07
combine these high-stress jobs with a lot of self-created press about how important you and your mission are. You have these kind of incredibly high stakes you craft for yourself. Whether or not they're true is a different question here, but it's a bit of a powder keg.
Corey
22:22
And you add in what Stephen said about, well,
Corey
22:25
well, when you're there, life and work blur. There is no division. Everyone you know and hang out with is in that building, right?
Corey
22:31
right? From very early in the morning to very late at night is your social circle. these are your co-workers, this is everything. It's not a job like other jobs. And it has some challenges as a result. And there's some things that I think politics need to talk about, you know, more honestly and candidly and say, is there a certain behavior here that we've just got to get on top of?
Corey
22:53
And everyone's going to say we're not as bad as the other guys, right? And you know what, for everybody but one party, that's going to be true, right? Somebody's got to be the the worst, but most people won't be. But there
Corey
23:04
there are just so many, you know, it's a canary in the coal mine for other challenges with the job of politics. You know, the way staff treat it, the way they think about it, the self-importance that they put on themselves after having jobs like that. These are things that need to be checked in an ongoing basis if you don't want out of control, out of touch government. So this was a bad one, right? There's some bad examples in here. There There is some absolutely juvenile language. This, you know, shields up stuff is very silly. But, you know, don't kid yourself. They're politicians. Drink. Political staff. Drink. And I'm
Corey
23:40
I'm aware of former prime ministers who just got drunk at lunch at Italian restaurants almost every day. Like you'd see them there as these kind of cautionary tales. So it's
Corey
23:50
it's a funny one, right? And it's interesting.
Corey
23:57
It's going to be interesting to see. Again,
Corey
24:01
I'm not trying to create this sort of both-side-ism. And really, in many ways, I judge the parties more on how
Corey
24:08
how are they acting in those situations? And how are they acting after those situations? How are they cleaning these things up or whatnot? And I think on those two cases, there's reason for concern with this one. Carter,
Zain
24:19
Carter, I want to pick up on the second point that you made, because you've both addressed in some ways like about the manifestation of what sort of behavior kind of comes out from the drinking. But the other one you said is how it's seen and if it's different. Do you feel like it's culturally different today than it was perhaps back in the day? And the reason I asked that question is, A, because you brought it up, but B, to maybe throw something else under the table for the two of you is the premier's response and the political sort of ramifications of that saying, you know, I have no, and I'm paraphrasing here because I don't have the quote in front of me, but I have no real issue if people are responsible and drink socially and in politics. It's fine as long as they're responsible, etc., was kind of his headline. And that he also acknowledged that he had a drink or two with Minister Dreeschen at the time when there were some guests involved from—some stakeholders involved for his ministry. industry. Carter, how's it seen today? And does the premier have any downside here? And is he out of step with perhaps the times on how people may view alcohol and politics? Or is it all baked in and we're fine and this is just going to be, you know, move on sort of conversation? What do you think?
Carter
25:28
I don't know. I mean, alcohol consumption is up after
Carter
25:32
after this pandemic, right? You know, people are drinking more.
Carter
25:38
don't think that we're drinking the way we, you know, people drank in the the 70s and 80s i think that you know there's a you know the liquid lunches that uh you know we used to see i remember i went out with a counselor once who drank at lunch and i was like what the hell is this like i i know that you know you see politicians drinking at lunch and you're kind of taking a bit of back seeing them drink after dinner seems to be much more the norm now so there has been some cultural shifting um because you're you're not allowed to go you know like Like the liquid
Carter
26:09
liquid lunches of the 80s and those types of excesses seem to be over. But, you
Carter
26:16
know, people drink, people do drugs, people do crazy things. And I think that and people have all kinds of vices. And I think that politicians sometimes are larger than life. And sometimes that means that those larger than life characters have larger than life vices. You know, every politician has something that dogs them. And just the same way, you know, that I think every person has something that dogs them. And so when you're going to be chasing those dreams, you're going to find yourself in these environments where you're not, you
Carter
26:55
you know, the vices are larger than life, because you as a person are almost larger than life.
Zain
27:01
Corey, anything to add to that in terms of perhaps the premier's exposure or perhaps culturally being out of step with his comments, both from the perspective of, yes, I joined this minister. Is that problematic for him politically? And then also saying, you know what, I don't I don't really mind if people are responsible and they drink reasonably.
Corey
27:20
Yeah, again, I think it goes back to this notion of life and work is so blurred there. And what he said is an acknowledgement of a reality in politics. And so I have a hard time really condemning him for those particular comments. Is he out of touch with modern workplaces? Well, a lot of them, but let's not kid ourselves. We were consultants, you know, for years and there was, there was drinking in the afternoons.
Corey
27:41
Yeah, absolutely. So these things were there
Corey
27:45
there too. It's not just in politics that you can see sort of this sort of behavior manifest. But yeah, I mean, the other thing is there is a risk seeking behavior that drives people to politics,
Corey
27:55
right? And so you do see some of these behaviors there,
Corey
27:59
there, perhaps in higher degrees than you would in other areas. I used to have this very half-baked theory of political vice. I know I've shared it with both of you in different contexts here. But basically the theory was that of six vices, every politician has at least three. And if you don't see a couple of them, then you should be worried because they're hidden. And they were drinking, gambling, smoking, drugs, corruption, and sex. So, like, what are you not seeing was always the – and
Carter
28:26
and it was kind
Corey
28:27
kind of a jokey theory of vice. But the root of it was, like, there is kind of a risk-seeking behavior in politics, and you often see a lot of these behaviors accompanying
Corey
28:37
accompanying that kind of risk-seeking.
Zain
28:40
Carter, wanted to jump in on that? I
Carter
28:41
I was just going to say politicians aren't normal people. I
Carter
28:44
mean, yes, they're normal people, but they're normal people to the extreme, right? And sometimes that just means that you're going to see manifestations of vice to the extreme as well. So whatever the vice may be, it may be bigger.
Corey
29:00
They're just like us, only more so,
Zain
29:03
let's talk about strategy for a second to round this out.
Zain
29:07
Everyone seems to be handling this sensitively. I think that's right from all parties. Do you think there's anything that either the premier or even the opposition needs to be careful of strategically as they see this story unfold? Or maybe perhaps I can ask you, where do you kind of see this story unfolding here on in as it relates to this issue and the expansion of scope, perhaps? I
Carter
29:27
think everybody's hopeful that Devin Dreeschen gets help. I'm just not sure that he thinks he needs to. You know, when I look at the statements, I'm not sure that I'm seeing that. Or the mocking tweets
Zain
29:37
tweets prior to his resignation. Yeah,
Carter
29:39
Yeah, I mean I'm just not seeing it like – this
Carter
29:41
this is a man who lost his job because of his drinking and his behavior.
Carter
29:47
That's a pretty big red flag. I think the red flags on Twitter were making the rounds the last couple of weeks. This is a pretty big red flag, man. Like if you lose your job because of your drinking, you should be checking yourself into something. You should be visiting some meetings as they used to say. um i don't know what they say now but that's
Carter
30:08
that's a red flag and i'm not sure you know the problem is there's nothing for the opposition because it's a personal failing and
Carter
30:15
and you know all of us have personal failings all of us are going to fail from time to time because
Carter
30:20
because we're not we're imperfect creatures so allow you know if i was the opposition i'd do it i think rachel notley and her team did, which was, you
Carter
30:29
you know, basically express support for this
Carter
30:32
this young man who's,
Carter
30:35
know, in a difficult spot. And don't make too much political hay of it because, you know what, in two years, it could be one of your ministers.
Zain
30:43
Corey, anything to add to that before we wrap it up on any political considerations, strategic for the NDP or strategic for Jason Kenney and his premier's office?
Corey
30:54
No, I think that's spot on. I am hopeful always that these will at some point become a moment of deeper reflection. And I'm not going to pretend I never drank in political offices. That would be dumb.
Corey
31:05
There's just way too many people who know otherwise. But I'll say that, you know, with age and hindsight, I wonder
Carter
31:13
whether it wasn't a bit overdone, you
Corey
31:15
you know, especially when I was much younger. And there
Corey
31:20
there are problems with drinking in workplaces more generally. It's exclusionary. There are people who are, for example, non-drinkers for a lot of reasons, religion, recovering alcoholic, whatever it may be. And you just got to ask yourself whether the pain that you are trying to kill with this, whether there are healthier ways to deal with it.
Zain
31:40
Yeah, we'll leave that segment there and move it on to our next segment. Our next segment, a weekend on O'Toole Island. Corey, you and I still own property and it's flooding. Our property on the fucking island is flooding. uh do we have to sell this fucking shit for parts this is what happens when you forget your own property when you become as rich as you and i are and
Corey
32:01
and you forget your
Zain
32:01
your own property on o2 island side by side duplexes you just let the the water come in and you know aaron rogers says can i use the island for a weekend sure why are you using it on a sunday aaron oh you can't play oh interesting you're immunized anyways take the island sure take take
Zain
32:16
take take cory's take cory's uh a little little shack there on the island. But I want to spend some time on O'Toole. I talked about it last episode in regards to his Civil Liberties Caucus. Well, his problems only get worse, Carter, because you add the Civil Liberties Caucus, which, by the way, in media interviews on Friday, fucking hilariously, their spokesperson, one of the MPs, Gladue, was saying that, listen, we're not here to usurp his leadership. But on November 22nd, I will let you know my vaccination status. And some of us might just show up to the House of Commons to let you know our vaccination status. I'm like pretty much guaranteeing she's not vaccinated. But also, Carter, in addition to the Civil Liberties Caucus, here's what we're seeing. Aaron O'Toole has a note out, a leaked note out to his MP saying, do not comment on any media requests in relation to seat redistribution. And of course, what ended up happening is that memo got leaked to the media. Certain MPs said, well, why would we leave it to the leader's office to comment? They usually don't comment. They just sit on their hands and hope the problem goes away. Their whole strategy is no one move, no one gets hurt. So more frustration with Aaron O'Toole in relation to his leadership. Stephen Carter, let's try to make this segment about rehabilitation. Let's be on Team O'Toole. Join us on the island. I'll send a helicopter. copter. What the heck does this guy need to do? This is almost reminding me a bit of our retreat style episode that we had a segment on prior to him jumping into the campaign. We often forget how low his poll numbers were heading into that federal election when we thought everything was done. This was a done deal. And of course, this guy was leading in the first two weeks of that campaign. So a bit on that, Carter, like, let's go back to that mindset. Let's get the troops together. You know, let's figure out what the retreat needs to look like. And I'm going to ask I'm going to ask you the same question I did when we started that particular episode. Stephen Carter, let's have you author the agenda for what Aaron O'Toole's retreat needs to look like. He's going to have one. He's going to say, you know what? There's a long weekend. I'm going to take some time off prior to Remembrance Day. I'm going to spend Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. We're going to get together. Stephen Carter, help me construct the agenda. What do I need to do now?
Carter
34:40
Well, I think the number one thing to start with is a real sense of what are people looking for from the Conservative Party of Canada. This is not a failing of Aaron O'Toole. I mean, absolutely, things didn't go his way, but Stephen Harper failed to a young upstart prime minister in Trudeau that didn't have much of a record to point to outside of a very nice looking family and a really good set of hair, you know, hair, haircut. cut um then of course you know andrew shearer failed and now aaron o'toole has failed well
Carter
35:15
let's not point at one person what is it that the canadian people aren't seeing in a conservative government and is it possible to bring it all together when you've got the uh civil liberties caucus out there running around is that something that is ever going to be electable because
Carter
35:33
because that was the one thing that Stephen Harper didn't allow that party to do is to take on these right-wing lunacy conspiracies. He had them all locked down and was a much more publicly
Carter
35:45
publicly facing heir apparent to Brian Mulroney than he was a conspiracy theorist. So that
Carter
35:54
that would be where I start. What do people want? Then
Carter
35:57
Then the second thing I would be looking to do is how does Aaron O'Toole represent that? Does
Carter
36:02
Does Aaron O'Toole represent that? I mean, the men's health cover of his policy book, was that really what people wanted? Did we really want a man in a black t-shirt to be the guy? You were really battling on Justin Trudeau's turf there. Should you be trying
Carter
36:20
trying to find his own brand position that he can succeed in? And
Carter
36:24
And if so, what is that going to look like? And then I would spend a lot of time trying to figure out how do I convince the 135, 100 and whatever it is, people, 30 something, 130 something people that are currently in my caucus that we
Carter
36:39
we can get through this together. other. And if we do, in two short years, when Justin Trudeau goes back to the polls, because he's greedy, because he doesn't know when to not reach for the next brass ring, in two short years, when he goes back to the polls, how can we have the strongest possible conservative party? How do I convince those 135 people of that? Because if I can do that, then I have a chance of staying on as leader. And I can actually do what we came here to do, which is to build a conservative party that people actually want to believe in. Right
Carter
37:08
Right now, they haven't, they haven't believed in us for six or seven years, if
Carter
37:11
if not longer, maybe a decade.
Zain
37:14
Corey Carter's thrown a few things on the agenda list. Number one, what is the state of the Conservative Party? What are people looking from the Conservative Party? Analysis on that. Number two, there on after, how does Aaron O'Toole play into that vision of what what people want to see from a Conservative Party? And number three, what's the strategy to convince the caucus, the MPs, that we can get through this together? If I was asking you to give a second look to the agenda that Carter's roughly laid out, what else would you be adding as the O'Toole brain trust takes Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday to figure out their strategy going forward? What else would you want to throw on that list?
Corey
37:53
what's maybe there but needs to be pulled out and emphasized more is really really understanding your level of support, your support with the party, your support with the caucus, your support with Canadians, and knowing all of them with a certain amount of detail and understanding, would
Corey
38:10
would you lose a leadership review today? That's going to tell you how bold you can be. Would you lose a caucus vote today? Because that's sort of the next order of concern. And if there was an election today, would you have any chance in hell of winning it?
Corey
38:25
So starting with with a bit of a lay of the land in that sense, I think is important, because that's going to define what actions are available to you or not. One of the things I find interesting about Aaron O'Toole, the ghost, which is what he's been since the, you know, the election, no one's really seen him. Yeah. Yeah, is he seems to be following a strategy of conflict avoidance, which makes me think he's quite worried that any dust up that would occur, he would lose, right? And so it's not a bad strategy in that sense you might think it's cowardly you might think that it's uh you know it doesn't have the bravado of a leader but it might be the smart one if you truly do not believe that if push comes to shove these people are going to have your back at this moment and if you believe time will change that then yeah you keep your head down and you you let temperatures cool you let people get context you you you build a coalition and you build understanding standing.
Corey
39:18
But in order to do anything, you need to know where you are.
Corey
39:22
What's your environment right now? Because that's going to dictate so much of what you do next.
Zain
39:28
Carter, I need to ask you, Corey said conflict avoidance. Good political strategy. You've been the most pugilistic on the show saying that there's a weak leader, strong leader model. This fits into weak leader. Is it temporally? And do you agree with Corey that conflict avoidance, which is perhaps the strategy O'Toole is undertaking, is a good one, given the fact that, as Corey's analyzed, any fight he wages or, you know, jumps into the metaphorical ring-in, he might more than likely lose.
Carter
39:55
think that I'm going to add a third, you know, to your weak leader, strong leader, I'm going to add a third leadership category, and I'm going to call it servant leadership. I think that if O'Toole starts to talk about how, you know, this revolving door of leadership is only playing into Justin Trudeau's hands, that he's willing to stay on and to work with every member of this caucus to develop a brand that works for everybody, then I think that that will actually hold some strength because he needs to serve this group. There is no heir apparent. I mean, if O'Toole dropped out, there is no one standing in the wings that should be the next one. um you know there's no uh trudeau
Carter
40:42
trudeau waiting for was it ignatiev who dropped out like jeez i'm so embarrassed for myself um you know like the this
Carter
40:50
is not the the moment that that some
Carter
40:55
dim light will become a bright light within the conservative caucus so my my view would be listen guys we're all in this together guys and gals we're going together Through this nightmare, let's work together to make this thing work. And I'm going to serve you, my caucus first. And that's the type of leadership that I will put forward. And maybe he didn't do that during the campaign. Maybe they tried celebrity style, Justin Trudeau-ing Justin Trudeau. And now they have come to the conclusion, all of them together, cumulatively, that this isn't their strength. The real strength is to build a team. And ultimately, you know, you can tell everybody the lie that that's what Stephen Harper did, and maybe they'll believe it. it.
Zain
41:38
Corey, let's just say we've gone through this synthesis of all the topics that we have on our agenda. Given everything that you've kind of been able to synthesize, you know, a retreat like this would probably need some hot takes put out there saying, we should do this, we should do that. This is what we should consider. Given all the synthesis we have in our head, let's go here. Should Aaron O'Toole stop being a ghost? Should he start showing up? And if so, what does that look like? Maybe we start here as the original question of his brand and an appearance. Carter's already given perhaps a model of leadership. Let's be more specific and tactical. Should he start showing up more and owning this current situation?
Corey
42:17
I'm not sure he should. So right now, you could make the argument Aaron O'Toole is Schrodinger's leader, right? He's alive and dead, and he's doing his best to make sure no one opens the damn box. And maybe there's some logic to that. Because if he goes in front of reporters, if he starts And he starts talking to them and they start asking, well, all of the questions about vaccination, the questions about Alberta's equalization referendum, which I still don't think we've talked about on this pod, which is pretty weird. And essentially
Corey
42:45
essentially just continuing to screw him down on some of these things that are going to be happening, at least some of them, in the not too distant future. Because, you know, we've got this moment of conflict ahead on vaccinations, right? Why do you need to die a thousand deaths before the actual death? Like, in some ways, is he not wise to say, okay, well, this is going to be a problem, but I'd rather be a problem for one day at the start of session than two weeks in the lead up to session every time I open my damn mouth?
Zain
43:13
Carter, is that naive that this is a one day in session problem and that, you know, you can nip it in the butt, so to speak, and kind of move on?
Carter
43:23
don't know if it's naive. I think it might be a bit wishful, but I'm not sure it's naive. I think that if
Carter
43:29
if you're sitting in that caucus and you're sitting in the Conservative
Carter
43:33
Conservative Party in general, you're just tired of losing. And you want someone to tell you that it's all going to be okay. So maybe just getting up and performing is the message that people need to see about how you can actually do it. But keep in mind, I mean, he's not up against the world's strongest prime minister, and they're three,
Carter
43:54
three, four cabinets deep now. I mean, these people, you
Carter
43:58
know, some of the bright lights are gone. You know, Carney didn't run. There is no, you
Carter
44:03
you know, there is no outside. Once you drop off from Freeland, you know, we talked about this before. It's a pretty steep drop.
Carter
44:13
So maybe there's opportunities. Maybe you can hope that Gabe will be, you know, a really difficult minister of the environment or, you
Carter
44:22
you know, the Wilkinson is going to be a really difficult minister of natural resources or something along those lines. And you can you
Carter
44:28
can start to throw a wedge in and start to show how strong you are compared to those lesser lights, perceived
Zain
44:37
Carter. So then to Corey's point, though, should he should he make the appearance? Should he not make the appearance? Should he stay in his current sort of conflict avoidance bunker strategy? Is that what you'd be suggesting that he keep doing? And if so, how does he communicate? How does he show leadership in this interim period?
Carter
44:56
15-minute phone calls with caucus.
Carter
44:59
What do I need to do? What do you want me to do?
Carter
45:01
Build relationships. You can never, ever go wrong in politics working the telephones. You've
Carter
45:06
You've got to know what people are saying. Because here's the thing. You pick up the telephone and call your worst enemy. me they're probably not going to call you an asshole right
Carter
45:14
right even on the you know basic human decency tends
Carter
45:19
tends to win out the day and if you have a good conversation with someone they'll actually think oh that was a really good conversation have those conversations be that type of person pick up the telephone channel brian mulrooney you know make your 35 phone calls every night and those phone calls become the ones that start to you know wait you know carry
Carter
45:40
carry your relationship with caucus that doesn't need to be public no
Carter
45:44
no one needs to know you're spending you know hours and hours on the telephone talking to all these people scheduling zoom meetings for 15 minutes of pop right just do it just get it done because that's the stuff that that that's the stuff that gets leaderships back on track cory
Zain
46:01
cory anything to respond to carter's strategy here that you're hearing
Corey
46:05
i i agree i think that it
Corey
46:07
it sort of reinforces why you avoid avoid the media though right this is the a time to just not create any flashpoints that they may be reacting to in a negative sense or talking amongst themselves on, or at least not spinning them further. Obviously, people are writing stories about this. Obviously, this is something that's out there. We're getting all sorts of think pieces about O'Toole's leadership right now. But calling around, this is all part of that data collection. Having those conversations with people, asking them what they need, what they They want what they wish for. That's an important part of leadership for sure. And he should be doing his best to get those who are marginally offside to be neutral or better and getting neutral or better to become allies of him as he's going forward. But none of this requires him to go out and pick a big public fight with anybody. You know, as Falstaff told Hal, you know, the
Corey
46:59
better part of valor is discretion. And
Corey
47:02
And it might be wise at this point for him to to work behind the scenes instead of instead
Corey
47:07
instead of doing what we so often do in politics, which is trying to create a moment. Right.
Zain
47:11
Right. You know, in a performative external way. Carter, jump in.
Carter
47:15
Moments are so fleeting, too. I mean, you know, what
Carter
47:19
you're trying to do in these things is build a political brand. The conservatives have struggled to build a political brand. It's not a moment to moment thing. And they've fallen into this, well, let's chase a moment. Let's try and win this thing today. Politics isn't that type of game anymore. I mean, you have to build a brand that people want to buy. And no one's buying the conservatives right now. The same thing, the exact same thing is happening with the NDP. But the only different thing is that Singh is not facing a leadership, you
Carter
47:53
you know, coup. coup. And
Carter
47:55
And that gives Singh the ability to start rethinking what the political brand of the New Democrats are. You
Carter
48:02
You really should be thinking the same thing for O'Toole. If you ever want to see stock in the Conservatives, forget about O'Toole Island. You know, the archipelago that is the Conservative movement needs to have some sort of, you know, high tide sooner than later.
Zain
48:21
Corey, in this strategy, is there any way he can externally telegraph leadership, telegraph? Because he's got some problems coming up. November 22nd, when the House of Commons returns, he might have the Civil Liberties Caucus. So yes, he goes in the bunker. He stays there. We decide that is what he's doing. He's effectively getting out his sewing kit, sewing the entire caucus together, one phone call at a time, ensuring that the collective approach that Carter has mentioned that we can get through this together, that there's a winning play here, there's a winning strategy. Let's say he succeeds on all that, he executes it.
Zain
48:57
Rather than maybe creating a moment, how does he telegraph that he's leading and maybe not make himself vulnerable to the
Zain
49:04
the Liberals seeing blood in the water and doing whatever they might do? But maybe more importantly, other members of the caucus saying, if I want to go for leadership, Maybe I need to take a few swipes now. I need to emerge. Maybe there needs to be an heir apparent in the window for people to see that there is a possibility, that there is an alternative, so to speak. So how would you suggest that he telegraph some form of leadership while playing this strategy? Yeah,
Corey
49:33
Yeah, you just need to outperform expectations at this particular moment. So where I think he might, again, it really just depends on where you are, where you truly are with your caucus is a good question. Because if everybody is building up the 22nd as this big moment where we're going to see Aaron O'Toole crumble and the conservatives stay united and they follow the rules or everybody shows up vaccinated or something like that, unlikely as that may seem at this particular moment, well, then that's a chance for people to go, huh, maybe
Corey
50:06
maybe there's something to this Aaron O'Toole guy, right? Right.
Corey
50:10
And and look, when you zoom back, all that happened was there wasn't a fucking fiasco on day one. But because expectations were in one place and he exceeded them in this hypothetical scenario, his leadership takes a notch back up and back up and back up. And so there's two ways to outperform expectations. Right. One is just to do well and the other is to make people think you're going to do even more poorly. So if you find yourself in a situation where you are going to lose two
Corey
50:38
two or three MPs who are going to show up, be kicked out and have to be kicked out of caucus, maybe get people thinking it was going to be two dozen before your interactions
Corey
50:46
or something to that effect. But again, it really depends on
Corey
50:49
on the actual situation in there. I've said this before, I'll say it forever. Good strategy comes from good analysis, and you got to have your facts right before you can move forward. You
Zain
50:59
You know, outperforming expectations is exactly what we do at Flair Airlines. Most Canadians think that we've refunded 100% of the carbon offsets that you've purchased. We've, in fact, only refunded 98% of the carbon offsets you've repurchased. At Flair Airlines, we are here. Yeah, what? I
Corey
51:16
I don't even know what's real and what's not anymore. No,
Corey
51:20
Like, is this a thing Flair Airlines has accused of? Are you just now in the world of slander? Like, what are we doing here?
Zain
51:26
Book your holiday travel today. Use the promo code BESTWINTEREVER. Flair Airlines will get you somewhere. Carter. Fuck. Get
Corey
51:32
Get out of here.
Zain
51:34
Why are you dissing our sponsor? In fact, you know, let me just tell you this. We're going to do an entire episode on Flair Airlines and how it might be a good idea for them to pay us to actually sponsor. Set expectations so low that when someone takes a Flair Airlines
Zain
51:49
and it makes it somewhere, Stephen Carter, kind of like the O'Toole conservative problem, that people are like, you know what? I
Corey
51:57
it. You know what? I made it from gate 35 to gate 42. That's great. I didn't
Carter
52:02
didn't find that. You're jumping
Corey
52:03
jumping on it. You're jumping on the fun.
Carter
52:08
know who you are anymore. You
Zain
52:10
You can't accuse me of potentially getting us in legal trouble and then join in on the fun.
Zain
52:18
Carter, do you buy this, that the telegraphing of leadership is an expectation-setting game right now for O'Toole? He's got real knives, man. And this is the leadership review, but also an alternative could propose themselves within the party. Is expectation setting enough for him or are the challenges here more graver? And is there a different way to telegraph leadership and progress of stitching this caucus together one piece at a time in a real meaningful way? I
Carter
52:45
I think expectation game is always something you need to play because if people are expecting you to be the best possible leader after a devastating
Carter
52:54
devastating loss that the team has sustained together, it's just not going to work. So you have to be able to piece together expectations
Carter
53:03
expectations that allow you just to make micro gains. Because I think that the biggest problem in life or the biggest problem in politics in general is always having to swing for the fences.
Carter
53:17
Most things are about just getting a small base hit on any given day and running it out, you know, and hoping for the best. Because that's life. Life is not a series of home runs where everything just works out for you and everybody's just on your side all the time.
Carter
53:38
Right now, Aaron O'Toole doesn't have everybody on his side. He needs to try and get them back and he needs to try and win them over one at a time. Solving the Civil Liberties Caucus may be beyond his reach today. It may be beyond Stephen Harper's reach if he was the leader today. because people have lost their collective fucking minds right so instead
Carter
54:00
instead why don't you focus in on the others why not bring all the rest of them on side in some in some small fashion just by making the telephone calls just but you know make the calls simple is best at this particular moment you can't win the leadership review if you can't make the calls let's
Zain
54:20
let's leave that segment there Moving on to our final segment, our over, under, and our lightning round. Stephen Carter, we start with you. We do this entire production for you. This has not
Carter
54:28
not been 90 minutes. Don't we go 90 on Sundays? Like, did
Carter
54:32
did you misunderstand the timing again?
Zain
54:35
We had a longer read from our sponsor, and it means that we just don't need to go as long, which is great. Flare
Carter
54:43
Flare Eyelines, paying you less for more. Is that what it is? I don't know. Carter, you also can't
Zain
54:47
can't jump in on the fun. okay and okay jesus christ carter
Zain
54:54
i wish i could describe the look cory has on his face
Zain
55:01
sadness and disappointment a little bit elation i'm a father of
Zain
55:06
i you know which is why you need to which is why you'd save so much
Corey
55:13
you'd book i mean it's true because i'd come back with only one child right
Zain
55:23
will be crowdfunding for legal counsel very shortly here uh
Corey
55:29
i i know nothing about flair airlines besides your reads here i i'm sure they're fine you know airlines can i tell
Zain
55:34
tell you something i don't either i have no idea i
Zain
55:38
just was booking a flight one day their prices were so low and i'm like what the fuck why are their prices so low so i checked their twitter replies, that is mostly people being like, I couldn't get anywhere. So, okay.
Zain
55:50
okay. Stephen Carter, overrated, underrated. Justin Trudeau is about to name a bunch of parliamentary secretaries in the coming days prior to the 22nd.
Zain
56:00
We've talked about cabinet being so much more centralized in the prime minister's office, but parliamentary secretaries, overrated, underrated in your mind. Stephen Carter, you are first.
Carter
56:10
Overrated. Have you ever heard of a headline that begins with Parliamentary Secretary Corey Hogan has made a significant, fine for politics, has made a significant difference. It doesn't happen. These are made-up rules in order to give people who didn't make the cut something to cling to.
Zain
56:27
Corey, the sub-headline on the article regarding Parliamentary Secretaries on CBC is overworked and under-recognized. Parliamentary Secretaries overrated or underrated, Corey?
Corey
56:39
Overrated. And it's why we gave you the title of the Strategist Parliamentary Secretary for all of those years. Well,
Zain
56:45
Well, that's an upgrade. I thought it was going to be some regional caucus lead for a region we had no MPs in. It is
Carter
56:54
is a big day, everybody. Zane is now getting 5% of our total revenues. So congratulations,
Zain
57:01
Well, congratulations and thank you once again to Flair Airlines. Corey, I'm going to stick with you. Overrated or underrated. the strategy. I view this through the lens of the liberals, okay, just so you know. Overrated, underrated, the NDP and the liberals are in talks to keep their minority government in power. They're currently going through their negotiations to keep a two- or three-year deal in place. If you're the liberals, is this strategy overrated or underrated if you could get security for 24 or 36 months with the NDs continuing on supporting you in Parliament? You
Corey
57:34
You know, I think it's underrated. To have that kind of stability and that range of motion that that would afford is actually interesting.
Corey
57:41
interesting. Because right now, I feel even though there is this post-election fatigue, that
Corey
57:48
that goes away so quickly. And I could easily see saber rattling again in a year or two years for sure. But if you turn that fatigue into something that has longer term value and agreement for governing for multiple years, that's not nothing.
Zain
58:02
Carter, what do you think? View it through the liberal lens. This deal to keep a 24, 36-month sort of, no, we're not going to head to the polls, at least not with the NDs, you know, rejecting our proposals. What do you think of that deal for the liberals? Overrated or underrated in your mind?
Carter
58:19
I think it's overrated. I think that they have such a large grasp on this that they're probably not going to, you know, unless they pull a full Joe Clark and lose, you know, a confidence vote, because
Carter
58:31
they miscounted things. They have multiple partners to play with. They don't need to do a deal with the NDP just to hope that they can stay in a very significant minority position. They are essentially a majority government without quite being a majority.
Zain
58:48
Carter, next question to you. This is one I know you've got deep expertise on. Aaron Rodgers, overrated or underrated?
Carter
58:55
Aaron Rodgers is an idiot. it okay
Zain
58:59
okay cory aaron rogers overrated or underrated uh
Corey
59:02
uh i'm gonna say he is uh underrated i
Zain
59:07
i agree i think now's the
Zain
59:08
time to buy aaron rogers
Corey
59:10
rogers stock and cory time to
Corey
59:11
to get aaron rogers island going here it's
Zain
59:12
it's time to buy some of that that aaron rogers island stock cory this transition is very beautifully into my next question hold that card you jump in in a second because i want you to jump in on this cory hogan are
Zain
59:23
are you buying another duplex on otul island after the strategy session We just went through after digging a bit deeper into that agenda, synthesizing some information, maybe seeing a pathway for O'Toole. Are you purchasing a few more units that some of the folks above us are selling on O'Toole Island?
Corey
59:41
island yeah because having a villa above mine as mine takes on water is kind of a nice uh you know nice way to and i've never known not how to double down either
Corey
59:52
either that or if somebody's willing to offer me a box of triscuits for my real estate i might be willing to take it at this point steven
Zain
59:57
steven carter you have never been one to buy real estate on otul island uh there's some units opening up uh in the same building as cory and i would make the podcast recording in person a lot easier are Are you buying on O'Toole Island after the strategy session we've just been through?
Carter
1:00:12
I'm doing whatever the opposite is that Corey Hogan does, because his history of investing in real estate is pretty staggeringly bad. It's really bad,
Zain
1:00:22
That hurts. That hurts because it's
Zain
1:00:26
personal burn that was deep in the pocketbook, we'll leave it there. That's a wrap on Episode 951 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velgey. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we'll see you next time.