Episode 934: Voted most likely to secede

Zain 0:02

This is The Strategist, episode 934. My name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, what is going on?

Carter 0:10

I'm back in from outside, so

Carter 0:13

so it's hot inside. It's better outside.

Corey 0:16

You know, Carter, I was going to say nothing but that good podcast energy today. We're going to have nothing but, nothing but,

Carter 0:21

you know, knock it right over. This is what people tune in for. They want to know where I was. I was in Squamish.

Carter 0:26

I rode big trails on my little bike.

Zain 0:31

you know let me tell you something carter you know the best way to recuperate from that hot sweaty outside is the cool inside of a refrigerator which is where bread goes but before we get into that before

Zain 0:44

we get into that cory you have got some poll results from us uh for us i should say from our listeners uh and the randoms on the internet uh so maybe i'll turn this over to you what were we polling on and what are said results you

Corey 0:59

you know folks things

Corey 1:00

got a little contentious last episode some voices were raised angry words were exchanged between myself and steven about hot dogs whether there should be 10

Corey 1:11

10 hot dogs or eight hot dogs in a pack and um you

Corey 1:16

know i think we can put that all behind us now i can be the bigger man and say it's okay steven that the public sided with me that people think there should be more hot dogs than buns that's fine uh

Corey 1:26

i'll accept your apology and we'll just move on it's okay you

Carter 1:28

you know know what you know what you you're pushing me to actually want proportional representation this is how bad your poll was i am i don't

Corey 1:36

don't want to hear it listen 635 people voted you know what the you know what the choice with the most was laid on us cory more hot dogs than buns by by what margin cory by

Corey 1:47

by a winning margin steven what was the margin cory 40.9 more hot dogs than buns and

Carter 1:51

and what was i was what was uh more buns than hot or equal number of buns to hot dogs equal

Corey 1:56

equal hot equal buns to hot dogs was a mere 11.5%. It

Carter 2:01

It was actually pretty embarrassing.

Carter 2:02

Equal number of hot dogs to buns was...

Carter 2:07

that's less than 40.9.

Carter 2:09

Is equal equal? Like if you do two sides of the equation, they're both equal, the same thing? Does that... Oh,

Corey 2:14

Oh, I'm sorry. Have you never seen a ballot before, Stephen? Do you not know how elections work in this country? You

Carter 2:19

You know what? Our listeners don't. More hot

Corey 2:22

hot dogs than buns. 40.9, the winning option. Thank you, me. me congratulations to the universe hot dogs exceed buns it's

Corey 2:31

it's nice to see i'm

Carter 2:33

i'm actually shocked that 40 of the population is that dumb that's

Zain 2:38

that's a that's an evergreen phrase by the way keep that one handy

Corey 2:43

keep that one handy plurality of our listeners steven that you're insulting that's the largest group of listeners we have you

Carter 2:49

you know what they all think i'm insulting the other ones it's

Zain 2:53

uh cory for the fullness of the poll do you want to read Read us the results of all of the available options that were on the poll. I

Corey 3:02

I don't know if that's totally relevant, but if you insist, more hot dogs than buns, 40.9%. The winner.

Corey 3:09

Yeah, the winner. More buns than hot dogs, 6.8%.

Corey 3:14

Equal hot dog to bun ratio, 40.8%. And equal bun to hot dog ratio, 11.5%.

Carter 3:20

.5%. Last two are the same. I

Corey 3:22

think so. People say that about political parties too, but you know what? what? They're both on the ballot.

Corey 3:26

both get a chance.

Carter 3:27

That's how this works.

Zain 3:29

Corey, do you want to give any insights to our listeners regarding, was there any thumb on scaling in your, there wasn't, okay. No,

Corey 3:37

No, I don't think so. Not at all. But I mean, it is a good reminder that sometimes the options choose the outcome, I suppose, if you wanted to be a cynic about it. I

Carter 3:48

won by one vote. And I am quite certain you set up accounts

Carter 3:53

accounts to vote multiple multiple times i'm certain of this because i know you and i know how you think you

Corey 3:58

you know there's always accusations like this after a close election yeah this is uh this

Zain 4:10

is an incredibly sad concession speech by you carter do you want to do you want to i'm not conceding no of

Corey 4:16

of course not i'm not you're gonna send your supporters down to the grocery store to storm it just as everybody is validating the results it's

Zain 4:23

good that was a january 6 reference for those that didn't understand let's move it on to our headlines guys i'm moving it on to our headlines we have to talk headlines this is where the action happens this is where stephen carter gets informed about what happens in the week when he's outside our first headline comes to us from chatelaine newsflash it's totally fine to store your bread in the fridge that's right stephen carter stephen

Zain 4:47

stephen carter what i say you know you know what i say If it's fine with Chatelaine, who am I to complain? That's been a long standing. Now, they also say, and the freezer is even better, but that's irrelevant, right? Like, who cares about the second half? Like, as in, who cares about the fourth option on a poll? Carter, both of you were against myself and the, what I'd say, the immigrant population, the constituency that I bring to the pod. We were united and universal in our unity that who cares about taste? Longevity is the only thing that matters with bread, and the fridge is how you get said longevity. Do you want to apologize and give a concession speech on this item, Stephen? There's

Carter 5:30

There's an inordinate amount of toasting going on in the visible minority population that you bring to the podcast scene. No one actually eats bread. They all eat toast, and toast comes from the freezer. You take it from the freezer, put it in the toaster. That's how it's supposed to work. bread does not go in the fridge uh good housekeeping which is a i think we can all agree a reference higher than chandelain gossip rag that it is um good housekeeping suggests you should never be putting your bread into the fridge uh and i'm with them oh

Corey 6:01

oh i'm sorry zane i thought that this was an evidence-based podcast that cared about things like science and science tells us that bread goes stale faster in the fridge so

Carter 6:11

loses its taste i'm

Zain 6:12

i'm not hearing I'm not hearing the concession. I'm not hearing the concession after the authority known as Chatelaine Magazine has told us exactly that it will...

Carter 6:22

will... You bring me the good housekeeping seal of approval, my friend, and then we can talk.

Carter 6:26

This is a really important lesson for our listeners about where you get your news from. You know, you can choose the gossip mags, but if you choose gossip mags and rags, you're going to be ill-informed like Zane Velji.

Zain 6:39

There it is. Listen, let me tell you something. Chatelaine, trustworthy publication. Why don't

Carter 6:43

don't we read the Calgary Sun right here?

Zain 6:46

Let's move on to our next headline. This one comes to us from CTV, and this one focuses in on our beautiful, wonderful, excellent province. Alberta adds outdoor adventure packages, including lifetime hunting license to vaccine lottery. Stephen Carter, as you know, we keep track of this. We keep track of it everywhere, and this time it is happening. You have advocated, you are pro-gun, you are pro-weed, you've been pro-burgers, you've been pro-shakes, you've been pro-almost everything. Are you pro-lifetime hunting license as part of the incentive program being offered by our province here in Alberta?

Carter 7:24

I'm sure that there are some people who would be very motivated by this. I know a young guy who got his moose hunting license last year and was so excited he was over the moon. i i would i would rather not get a lifetime hunting uh license but my my thinking is there if if there's a small group of people that is actually going to be motivated by the lifetime hunting uh license and allow them to choose that as their outcome allow them to compete for it by putting us all into the same pool and being like hey you could win like a stampede gift pack or something whatever the hell the the other prizes are you're not actually in you know incenting anybody to get involved what we need to do is actually have something that appeals to people if this is something that appeals to people then they should be able to register for it and say this is the prize that i would like and maybe then they would actually go and get vaccinated but as it is it's it's like random chance on random chance there's a random chance i could win something that random chance is that i may get something that i hate or i may get something that i like i

Carter 8:27

i if you're keeping track i'm in it for the million bucks that's the prize that i want everything else is uh is

Carter 8:35

is worthless to me this isn't the foothills home lottery where they're trying to like promote everybody's prizing i don't i don't know what the hell kenny's doing with this uh

Zain 8:46

cory are you in for the lifetime hunting license uh to to be clear it is a i think it's for hunting animals that is not encouraging of the purge uh where we could go find steven on a weekend which would be an entertaining activity um but we were not hunting for

Carter 9:01

for steven never find me because i'd be outdoors and

Carter 9:04

and you guys be like oh he's off the road i don't know how i'm gonna get there oh but if

Zain 9:09

if the government gave us a lifetime hunting license to find you carter and and create an alberta version of the purge i don't know i'm just saying it could be open cory Corey, do you want a lifetime hunting license? Will you be registering for this special lottery that I guess you have to separately register for? Can the government count on your name being added to the pile?

Corey 9:29

Well, I think you can imagine that I'm not the kind of guy who doesn't

Corey 9:32

doesn't eat animals and then goes and shoots them for sport. That doesn't really seem like it. This is Corey Veggie Dog.

Carter 9:40

which was the most controversial thing from the last episode. People always said, yeah. But,

Corey 9:45

But, but hunting licenses are fairly expensive and a lifetime one would be pretty wild. You know, like it costs a couple hundred dollars if you're getting a deer license or an elk license or a moose license or anything like that. Now, that said, a million dollars would buy you, by my quick math, 3,800 white-tailed deer licenses. So maybe the money would probably be sufficient. But look, I think we

Corey 10:10

know we have higher levels of vaccine hesitancy in rural areas. is. We know that hunting is a more popular pastime in rural areas. I'll bet you if you Venn diagram the vaccine hesitant and those who are enthusiastic about hunting, you're going to see more overlap. Maybe I'll even give the government some charity and say maybe they made that analysis themselves and said, what's the group that's not getting vaccinated? What might work for them? And it's something that is expensive to people, but cheap to government, right? So it's not such a bad idea if you're going to be in the incentive game. game. Will it make a difference? I don't know. I mean, there seems to be growing evidence that it's tough to say, right? Because you don't have a parallel universe where you're not running the incentive. But it doesn't seem like the incentives are having a huge effect on numbers. But what

Corey 10:54

what the hell? Why not? I think it's just fine.

Zain 10:57

Corey, you had an interesting incentive idea that you floated on Twitter this week. Do you want to socialize it to our listening audience? I don't know if I'd call it an incentive, so to speak, but please, I'll give you the floor. You

Corey 11:09

You know, You know, in France, they announced that they were going to have the vaccine passport required to do a few things. And like they had a million people sign up for vaccines within 24 hours. It was – it just – you know, the line was it destroyed vaccine hesitancy with one action. It got me thinking, well, maybe we've got to play with disincentives instead of incentives. So maybe we put everybody who's not vaccinated and eligible into a lottery and one person gets chosen and has to pay $1 million. Maybe that would resolve all of our problems right now. What do you think? I like

Carter 11:37

like that. I'm in. Let's

Carter 11:40

Let's give it a try. Disincentive is a valid strategy, Corey. This is, you

Carter 11:45

you know, make people listen to the podcast. Throwing it out there.

Zain 11:50

We know that there's, to Corey's point, a lot of vaccine hesitancy in rural Alberta. We certainly also know that there's a bit of vaccine hesitancy in urban areas with racialized communities, East Calgary being one of them. I will just say, if anyone from the government is listening, thank you for the hunting licenses. But maybe for my people, some fridge bread would be a suitable incentive.

Corey 12:12

Corey, please. To be fair, like, and I know I said vaccine hesitancy, too, but it's really just lower vaccine uptake. And it's obviously a reasonable hypothesis that it's vaccine hesitancy. But also, there's less COVID in a lot of these areas. It probably seems less urgent. So it's going to take a whole bunch of things to make this work, to get to that 80% that we're all shooting for as a country to get the border nicely reopened. Um,

Corey 12:38

probably wouldn't encourage the government to seize a million dollars of people's property. But, you know, there's probably options out there in terms of encouraging people further. It's too bad that passports were taken off the table, in my opinion, because that seems fairly effective. I

Zain 12:51

I would want to watch your show, Corey. You know, finding one Albertan that has to pay a million dollars, just find out the ways that they try to clobber it together. Does someone just go straight to the bank and say that I've been fined a million bucks? Do people do a friends and family round? I mean, there's so many ways to put together

Zain 13:07

your million bucks. We need to film that. Carter, there are a few things in this headline section that we like to keep track of. Obviously, vaccine incentives is one of them. Here's another one, because this one comes to us from the Hill Times. times. McCrimmon not expected to run again. Carney could succeed her as the next liberal candidate in Kanata Carlton, say liberal sources. Stephen Carter, Carney

Zain 13:32

Carney watches here. What are you thinking? What are you thinking? Can he run in Kanata Carlton from Edmonton?

Carter 13:38

He certainly can. I mean, he's a very capable fellow. I think that, you know, there's a chance he could run in multiple ridings. I know it's not really technically allowed but i think he can do it um if anybody can it's mark carney so why not have him run um you know he's been linked now to edmonton center ottawa center and and now this one so um this is this is massive i mean he's kind of a big deal i i'm again i'm shocked that we didn't see the prime minister announce mark carney when the prime minister was in calgary last week uh But, you

Carter 14:12

you know, obviously, the strategists at the Liberal Party are holding out for Mark Carney and Edmonton Center another week or two as we get closer and closer to this rate dropping.

Zain 14:22

Corey, simple question. Does Carney actually go? Like, what is your read of the situation? Like, so many rumors, including the ones that we heard on a podcast about Edmonton Center. But do you think he actually goes this cycle?

Corey 14:35

So I read that article. And there's two interesting, there's a lot of interesting things in that article, actually. One of them is that so many people within it just take it as a given that he's going to run, but he's not going to announce until the writ is dropped because as soon as he announces, he has to leave his job. And there was a suggestion that if for whatever reason the writ drop is pushed off, well, that would be kind of a drag for him. And, you know, there's things you can say about that, like if it seems like it would be proper for him to step down when the writ gets dropped, if everything's just sort of a given, wouldn't it be proper for him to step down right now? Now, the other is that it mentioned a couple of alternative ridings that were open to him, potentially. The Ottawa South was in there as well as Ottawa Centre. Kanata Carlton we're already talking about. Obviously, everyone's talking about Edmonton Centre as a possible rumour.

Zain 15:20

rumour. Yeah, that's where most of the

Zain 15:22

is. Clearly. I've heard a lot of

Corey 15:24

But speaking of Edmonton Centre, a detail that was in that article that was just sort of dropped in there somewhat casually. And I'm not sure that I'd seen reporting about this. Obviously, there's been some whispers about this. But it's that Don Iverson, soon to be former mayor of Edmonton, decided just last week not to run for the liberals in Edmonton Center.

Zain 15:43

Center. That's right. When

Corey 15:44

When the rumors were

Zain 15:45

were pretty strongly that he would. They

Corey 15:46

They were very strong that he was going to. And it

Corey 15:49

it just sort of like waved it away and it was part of a – hey, the quote-unquote center and if you've ever worked for a political party, the leader's office is often referred to as the center, right? It's making the decisions. They're not putting enough push into star candidates was kind of the suggestion. So that was interesting to me. And it seemed almost second. Well, it was definitely secondary within that story. And that's interesting.

Zain 16:13

Carter, any for any final thoughts on on Carney watch? We know this is we knew we do this one for you. We do the vaccine lotteries, we do the incentives and we do Carney watch for you. Do you want to capstone this before I move on?

Carter 16:24

Now I was on the record months ago saying that I wasn't wouldn't run. I was right. Write it down. thank

Zain 16:29

thank you because i did not want a fucking victory lap carter let's go to our next headline this one comes to us from npr mac and cheese ice cream is the ice cream you never thought you'd want and now it's here and hard to get steven carter mac and cheese ice cream are you in or are you out no

Carter 16:46

no i'm out that's ridiculous i mean people

Carter 16:50

people are stupid there

Carter 16:52

there we go okay

Corey 16:54

thank you carter cory mac mac and cheese ice cream yeah

Corey 16:56

i like cheese i like ice cream they're both dairy products do we think they're not going to go together they're basically the same effing thing and mac and cheese has salt too i like to salt my ice cream it's good taste so i'm in here's

Carter 17:08

here's what you can do wrong is the is basically the theory the whole theme of the last two or three episodes this

Zain 17:15

here's what you can do here's what you can do you can take some of the extra hot dog wieners you have chop it up and throw it into your mac and cheese ice cream okay we know we

Zain 17:24

know that's how this shit works let's move it on to our next headline this one comes to us a little bit serious but not the big one that i want to talk about uh because there's still some crazier shit that i want to talk about this one comes to us from the y-axis two-thirds of southern republicans plan to secede that's right a new you gov survey conducted on behalf of a democracy watchdog group finds that 66 of republicans living in the south say they'd support seceding from the united states to join a union with other Southern states. This is actually gaining support among Southern Republicans back in January when February it was around 50% that would support such a proposal. Corey, you know, we do iterative takes. We did our You the People podcast leading into the election. We do iterative sort of like, you know, jump in, jump outs into the U.S. as we did a couple episodes ago. This one clearly catching our collective eye for a reason. Do you have any initial thoughts when you see a headline and some data talking about the U.S. and especially the U.S. South in such a manner?

Corey 18:23

Well, they just keep walking towards the edge. What you didn't mention is that same poll saw that on the coasts, Democrats were pretty cool with the idea of separating and creating their own little long claims. And letting them do the coastal sort of, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So it suggested a bunch of different regions and said like, hey, would you be interested in seceding into this region? And you found that Democrats wanted to secede if they were in Democratic regions and Republicans wanted to secede if they were in Republican regions. Now, nowhere was as extreme as the South. And obviously, America

Corey 18:54

America has a little bit of history with Southern secession, right? I don't know if you're aware of this. It was in all the newspapers back in the 1860s. and it

Corey 19:03

it does seem to be an alarming and growing trend because if both sides are started starting to say well fuck them i don't like them anymore i don't want to be in the same country with them like let's not overstate it it seems like blowing off a lot of steam we always say beware of novel concepts people aren't being pulled regularly on breaking up the united states but i guess i will say stephen

Corey 19:24

stephen carter for years has said i remember having conversations with you stephen years and years ago and basically like where does this end where does this crazy train america seems to be on and your maybe your views have changed but at the time it was like i think they're gonna tear

Corey 19:40

tear themselves apart was basically your view i

Corey 19:43

i always thought that was pretty dumb but i think with

Corey 19:47

with every passing year i have to acknowledge that well it may still be a stupid idea it seems more and more likely uh i'm not saying that's even like probable

Corey 19:56

probable it's barely possible at this moment but But it's growing, and it's a weird thing to see. In

Carter 20:01

In my recollection, that conversation was in D.C. It was in D.C. Yeah, we were walking down the mall,

Carter 20:07

mall, and we were talking about how this ends. And this is years ago. This is about six, seven, eight years ago, probably. It was probably 2013 or so. Yeah, so this

Carter 20:19

is the problem, right? The problem is that we have two poles, and the poles are getting further apart. part and the polls aren't based on um actual issues they're they're actually based just simply on belonging to a group and you want to be a part of group a and you don't like group b and when it's boston red sox fans not liking yankees fans it's okay it works itself out because ultimately that's a relatively uh inconsequential uh set of anger i mean sometimes it rises to the level of hooliganism and the english fans aren't allowed to go and watch anybody play soccer for a while But that's okay. That's okay. It worked itself out. In the United States, it's now based on religiosity, kind of what I would characterize as Christian extremism, and it's also being injected into the youth through the education system. so there's an indoctrination element uh that is very concerning um and

Carter 21:18

and the the other side so if we were if we were a republican podcast being recorded in in the south in tennessee where we're not getting our kids vaccinated anymore we

Carter 21:27

we would uh we'd be saying that indoctrination is happening in the liberal areas right we're watching the libs uh indoctrinate themselves now we're up here in canada where we tend towards liberalism um so we are scared right now of what's happening in the southern united states and i think that uh objectively that's what the world is afraid of um the religiosity and the religious extremism that um christian united states has been uh lovingly throwing around the rest of the world um when it's not them is happening in their own backyard right now it scares the crap out of me yeah

Corey 22:02

yeah i mean i i sort of agree with your overall thrust i don't think it's about religiosity anymore i think donald trump is not a religious person's candidate they've elevated

Carter 22:10

elevated him to saint they've they've he only gets there by christian evangelicals he only gets there if the christian evangelicals are with him we're

Corey 22:18

we're just it's in it's we're in a sports team mode right now right uh people aren't voting for interest people aren't even hearing the other side i don't want to we've

Corey 22:27

we've had too many podcasts lately lamenting this but the reality is uh we're we're kind of all fighting our corners at this point and we're backfilling we're

Corey 22:35

we're backfilling the justifications for the positions that the the parties we support take.

Zain 22:40

Speaking of which, let's move it on to our next headline, our final headline. Let's spend a few minutes on this. Honestly, guys, I was not wanting to go down this road and go into this well, this story again, but it keeps getting crazier and crazier. Two headlines from the CBC. Let's put them together. Greens discuss revoking Leader Annamie Paul's membership, and Green Party brass move to block funding for Leader Annamie Paul's riding campaign uh

Zain 23:06

uh paul supporters say revoking the leader's membership would be unconstitutional and democratic and then party executives say that they may not be able to fully fund all candidates oh and conveniently may not be able to transfer the funds to anime paul for her election campaign uh in toronto stephen carter you know you guys were just talking about cory was just saying the reverse engineering of defending party decisions how does one in good conscious stay in the green Maybe let's start here because, you know, and then we can get into the uncharted, unprecedented waters. What's the game plan? But if you're in the Green Party right now, how are you kind of justifying staying as part of the Green Party? Party?

Carter 23:43

I mean, I think the Green Party sees this as their normal operating procedures. I mean, they're not a political group. They're not a group that understands why parties are formed. They're not a group that, you know, they kind of remind me of the Reform Party, right? The group people who are part of the Reform Party were unable to work within the Progressive Conservative Party and had to form their own group so that they could have things happen. The Green Party believed so strongly in their ideals that they formed their own party to carry those ideals. Now, it wasn't a unique idea. It didn't just start in Canada. It was an idea stolen from other regions and perhaps implemented the worst here. It's always been a backwards party. It's always been a party that didn't understand politics. It professed, really, not to care about politics. It didn't want to be a political party. It wanted to be above that. It wanted to express its ideals it wanted to get the ideas of of environmentalism to the forefront um in a you know in a fiscally conservative way because it always tried to balance off that fiscally conservative element and

Carter 24:50

and i think that this is um this is what happens when non-political people get involved in politics i i you

Carter 24:57

you can't do this to a leader the fact that they're talking about about taking away the leader's membership i mean jason kenney's not popular in alberta jason kenney's not popular his party executive isn't talking about taking away his membership right his party executive know that the only way to remove that leader is through another democratic process they would pull their members in in some sort of a process to determine whether or not there needs to be a leadership review that is the process that they've articulated this is outside side of the process. This is an attack on a leader whose sins

Carter 25:32

sins are not widely known and appear to be based on, well, we just don't like the way she does things. Well, then

Carter 25:41

then quit. Your job is to quit. If you're the party executive and you don't like Anna Mae Paul, quit. That's your job. If you don't think you can operate the party the way it needs to be operated, then quit. Because as Corey Corey has said in a number of tweets, and he's been bang on,

Carter 25:59

Anna May Paul has the broadest representation and the broadest mandate for the party. She is the one who has the members' support and the members' votes, and until that is taken away, she is in charge, and the rest of you need to get the fuck out of the way. And I'm done playing, because I'll tell you, this is beyond anything. It is now, it looks racist, it sounds racist, it appears to be either racist and sexist or some sort of combination thereof and if people aren't acknowledging that are not bringing that to the forefront then they are just blind because no one else has had to put up with this and the examples that have been put on twitter well do you remember when john turner faced this no john turner didn't face this um joe clark didn't face this everybody uh allison redford certainly didn't face this everybody

Carter 26:47

everybody else went through a proper proper democratic process. This is being done in a way to undermine the leader in a way that is unconscionable. And people who are in the Green Party and allowing this to happen, you are allowing it to happen. And it looks racist. So get the hell out of there.

Zain 27:02

Corey, I'm going to ask you the same question I did Carter, which is how does one stay a member of this party? And then we'll talk about the escalation. Carter's already touched on it from his perspective. But I'm curious if you've you've got any thoughts like in terms of how how a member might be whether they're doing some you know mental gymnastics in terms of what might be going on to to still stay part of the fold of of a party that is so clearly um trying

Zain 27:29

trying to out their leader in such an unceremonious fashion

Corey 27:33

well i think you've got to keep in mind a couple of things here which is that people don't join I joined the Green Party because of –

Corey 27:41

well, it's not true of everybody, but let me generalize a bit. It's more than just kind of a casual affinity a lot of the time. If your policies are pseudo-green, there are options that are more likely to be successful.

Corey 27:53

successful. You can join the NDP. You can join the liberals. These are political parties that are more likely to see political success. You join the Greens, like

Corey 28:01

like you're really saying something about what's important to you, and you don't walk away from the things that are important to you. lightly you know the the more a party is about a specific issue like a cause if you will the

Corey 28:15

the more i suspect it's tied up in your identity and it's not like you're gonna tomorrow say well i don't believe in kind

Corey 28:21

kind of green politics anymore right you know i don't believe in ecological justice taking a global approach to these things and so i don't think that people in general are inclined to quit political parties en masse because their identities are so tied up in them as we've discussed and increasingly so but i think that's doubly true when it's a party like the green party and so the fight then becomes internal for control of the green party like well i'm not going to let them get away with that i think about the scene in office space with the character michael bolton he's like why don't you just go by mike he's like why should i change he's the one who sucks and

Corey 28:58

think there's a fair bit of that and um this

Corey 29:01

this is not done right

Corey 29:03

right we've got a federal council of the Greens, executive council, I think, maybe even within the federal council, who is acting

Corey 29:11

acting in this fashion, and it is not concluded. And we've got an awful lot of reporting about what's going on. I agree with Carter. This is all just fucked. This is crazy.

Corey 29:22

I get the sense, after many weeks of reporting, that the Greens have an entirely different perception of leader. It's insane. It's not one that aligns with our federal

Corey 29:31

federal election laws. It's not one that conforms with kind of practice or I would even argue best practice elsewhere. Like the leader leads. The leader has the support of the party, has the moral support. I just – nobody on federal council has any kind of authority equivalent to the leaders and that they would be acting in this fashion.

Corey 29:52

It's nuts that they would be considering reviewing her leadership that she just got. Too bad, so sad, she's leader, don't like it, quit. That would be my suggestion to them, right? They

Carter 30:00

They should all be quitting. The

Corey 30:02

The idea that they would be suggesting that she may not be a member or

Corey 30:09

or should not have membership is unreal. It is absolutely unreal. And this has gotten so out of hand for the Greens. I don't know what anybody is thinking there, particularly – like I'm not trying to create a false equivalency here. I don't know what their federal council is thinking. I don't know what their president is thinking. I think their president thinks they're the chair of a board and

Corey 30:29

that the leader reports to them. And while the president's position may show up before the leaders in the Green Constitution, it doesn't matter at all. That's not the case. The leader is the leader.

Zain 30:41

Carter, talk to me about what this does to someone like Elizabeth May and her legacy and what she's done over the last number of years kind of setting up this party. Is this all evaporating, like right now? And kind of what's the blast zone for someone like her, who I find to be the most intriguing, perhaps naturally so, you know, auxiliary character to this story that we haven't heard a lot from? But, you know, who was the leader of this party and I'd say was widely respected as a parliamentarian.

Zain 31:08

Does this does this affect her and her standing, you feel? Well,

Carter 31:11

Well, I mean, I believe for a long time that Elizabeth May, you know, made the Green Party about her more than the opportunity to win. Right. And she was much more comfortable being the single Green MP than when she started to have a caucus. And this, I think, is the ultimate problem. She should be standing up right now for Anna Mae Paul and standing up against the executive. And the fact that she hasn't and she's willing to let this party destroy itself immediately after she's left just says to me that she doesn't care about the actual party itself at all. She was in this for herself. And this

Carter 31:51

this is this is a fine outcome for her. She should be standing up right now and supporting the leader. leader everybody that's been involved except for the mp that crossed everybody else that should be should be standing up and supporting the leader and if you can't quit your job is to quit not the leader's job she could have four members left by the end of this election that's her right she earned that right by winning the leadership if you you haven't won shit you haven't won anything you know these these members i got members texting me or uh tweeting at me about how bad she is no she won you didn't win fuck all you have to leave off you go don't let the door hit you in the ass coy

Zain 32:31

coy any thoughts on that elizabeth

Zain 32:33

elizabeth may blast zone for elections

Corey 32:34

elections have consequences she's the leader you don't like it that it is too bad so sad right just sit on your hands for an election or go start a new party start the new greens do whatever the hell you want but this is just poison and what does this mean for the next leader this

Corey 32:51

this is not this is not a good setup for a political party down the road no let's

Corey 32:56

let's move it on to our first segment our

Zain 32:57

our first segment ain't no care in the world steven carter i want to talk about i want to talk about care in two different ways i'm going to talk about child care justin trudeau making a coast by coast stop yes are you it's

Zain 33:11

it's it's it's you seem you seem like you're not interested now this

Corey 33:14

this one seemed labored but

Zain 33:15

but go yeah i mean oh you're fine you don't like the headline you don't know it was it was

Carter 33:21

it's okay since when did we start no headlines in real time we expect better of you zane i mean we

Carter 33:27

we expect better is all and

Corey 33:29

and i mean steven and i have that whole chat that we go back and forth critiquing you in a running

Carter 33:35

don't like to talk about it no

Corey 33:36

no it's we don't want to distract you yeah

Carter 33:38

yeah keep going focus focus keep us going i got it

Corey 33:41

of your system got it out

Carter 33:42

your system we'll go to

Zain 33:43

to the chat justin trudeau is signing 10 child care deals with With provinces, of course, B.C. and Nova Scotia. I want to talk about that. And, of course, I want to talk about taking care of another type of business, panic, for Aaron O'Toole and inside the Conservatives right now. And I want to kind of get your sense from what might be happening within that party and what they should be thinking of as they head into this. But let's start with the child care announcements. $10 a day child care. Justin Trudeau on a tour. Corey, what do you make of his success thus far in this pre-election but totally election style meeting with with the premiers and inking these deals that many speculated would take a long time to come, but sooner sooner than some had anticipated?

Corey 34:25

Well, let's not let's not just throw the parade yet. He's basically picked off two of the easiest governments to pick off. And like there's a lot of conservative governments in the country right now. Right? You basically go province to province.

Corey 34:46

You know, it just it goes and then various maritimes with the exception, of course, of Nova Scotia, which is a liberal seat. Yeah. Look, I think my point would be he's picked off the easy ones. And that's, of course, what you want to do when you're trying to create a bit of a bit

Corey 35:01

bit of a steamrolling here and you're trying to get things moving. I will be more impressed when we get a conservative premier signing on board. That will make me think that perhaps we've got a bit of a catalyst here. Well,

Zain 35:12

maybe tell me, did you not find BC as an impressive one?

Corey 35:17

Not really. I mean, that's something that the BC government was already keen on, and now the feds have put money into it. So why do we think that would be a particularly hard one to negotiate?

Zain 35:27

I just feel like the politics of leaving Jagmeet Singh out in the cold on that particular one, I think is fascinating for BC, of course, given its swing riding territory as well.

Carter 35:38

i think it's easy though for trudeau to be pitching this thing that is wildly popular where is the anti-ten dollar a day daycare constituency i mean it's it's it's tiny it doesn't matter uh it certainly doesn't exist in the in his realm of voters so he gets to go shopping around even here in alberta you know i mean cory's talking about um

Carter 36:00

um you know when he sees a conservative premier sign off on it i'll tell you something i did not expect to see a conservative government admit that they were still talking about it um that was to me in an absolute shocker if it would i would have expected radio silence we're not even aware that there's a ten dollar proposal uh ten dollar a day daycare proposal that would have been my talking point until you know the election was in the rearview mirror and then suddenly miraculously we would have found a way to to make it about us not about justin trudeau after the election but you know This thing has some momentum. Trudeau has created momentum heading into his election. And whether it's $10 a day daycare or recovery from the pandemic, he's in the midst of creating a government that we feel cares for us. To go back to your labored headline at the beginning, he cares about us.

Zain 36:54

Ain't no care. Ain't no care, Carter. Ain't no care in the world. And

Carter 36:58

And this care is going to carry him into a very successful election, unless the campaign proves decisive, which, of course, it could happen.

Zain 37:08

Okay, so this is exactly where I wanted to head into, because I'm glad you guys are not necessarily over the moon by his success thus far. But suppose you were on Team Trudeau right now. What are you trying to do to break into Doug Ford world? Let's just use that as an example. They, of course, need to break into Ontario. Ontario, what does a perspective, sort of either message or strategy on this pre-campaign tour look like to try to make this happen in a place like Ontario? Carter, can I go to you first?

Carter 37:37

Oh, yeah. I mean, this is a classic. You basically have the Senate, you take Doug Ford a document and you say, Doug, sign

Carter 37:45

sign this and I win.

Carter 37:48

Don't sign this and I win. because

Carter 37:50

because if he doesn't sign it, then Trudeau gets to campaign on, this is why you need liberal government. This is what happens. Conservatives don't want you to have this $10 a day daycare that will revitalize your economy, that will help every individual family. Numbers coming out today just in Alberta see families like Corey Hogan's saving a minimum of $6,000 or $7,000 a year. Corey Hogan, how do you feel about Justin Trudeau today? Better than normal, I'll answer for you. And Justin Trudeau gets it. He wins either way. He either gets the $10 a day daycare, winner,

Carter 38:23

winner, or he gets to campaign on the $10 a day daycare, also a winner.

Zain 38:29

Interesting. So your strategy for Ontario, just so we're entirely clear, is an ultimatum to Doug Ford that either I hammer you over the head with this or you sign it because it's good for your province. It's what people want. Am I right? If

Carter 38:45

If I was walking into the room, I'd

Carter 38:47

I'd throw it onto Doug Ford's desk. I'd say, sign it or don't sign it. I don't care. I'm staying in here for an hour. I'll walk out in an hour and say we had a productive meeting. You in?

Corey 38:59

thoughts, supplements, if you agree? First of all, I have a million kids, so we're probably talking tens of thousands in

Carter 39:05

in my case. Tens of thousands of dollars.

Corey 39:07

I mean, I could probably buy some nice new hats or something. I'm not sure. You

Carter 39:11

You need a new hat.

Corey 39:12

I guess so. You deserve

Carter 39:13

deserve a new hat. My

Corey 39:13

My hair continues to disappear. Maybe

Zain 39:15

Maybe new headphones, a less phallic microphone, but we won't discuss that. Go ahead.

Corey 39:20

And so, yeah, I mean, there's some logic to that, especially as it starts to look real in other provinces and you start to say, oh, boy, if we had that here, that would mean this to me. That's pretty cool.

Corey 39:32

I do think, however, when you start talking about cracking the nut of Doug Ford there, what's your incentive? what's your incentive to negotiate before an election um unless there's somehow the liberals are going to give you a sweetener for going now rather than a bit later so if if i'm the liberals

Corey 39:49

you've got to find a way that somehow is like we

Corey 39:52

we think it's important to get these things rolling now so we're willing to create incentives to get it rolling now because working families can't wait working families absolutely cannot wait however you

Corey 40:04

you know six months from now we're going to have have to revisit whether we can do that because of course everything will everything we think it's important to get it now as people are planning their post-pandemic lives once those are planned perhaps our charity will be slightly less but you've got to do that in a way that doesn't immediately make you look like a giant cynic and gets leaked somewhere else so for

Corey 40:22

for all these reasons i actually just i don't think it's going to happen right now uh if you're trudeau what you do is you then go up to newfoundland you just get the the last non-conservative government to sign off and you call an election and say we look forward to negotiating the rest of them after the election but as you can see from these three provinces of different stripes we've got a new democrat and a liberal government here and another liberal government um

Corey 40:47

this is something that's real and can happen and look at what it would mean for your pocketbook carter

Corey 40:51

carter what do you think i

Carter 40:53

i just think it's simpler than that i

Carter 40:54

i don't think you have to sweeten it all because i think you have the win-win if they say no you win if they say yes you win you think george shahal up in in Calgary Skyview, isn't going to be talking about $10 a day daycare every single day. He's going to be talking about it. It should be the first panel of every single one of his brochures should be $10 a day daycare. Elect me. This is what you get. Jason Kenney's screwing you. That should be his primary message. It's super easy, and people like it.

Carter 41:26

Huge number of families, largest number of families in Calgary are in Calgary Skyview.

Carter 41:32

and calgary midnapore huge

Corey 41:35

huge i think that may all be true and i think it will be a very popular thing on the doors i i guess my point is why make it look messy by having broken negotiations why not just continue to go intentionally

Corey 41:47

intentionally through all of these if you're a conservative government why not wait until post

Corey 41:52

post-election for all we know aaron o'toole is going to say i'm willing to do Plus, I want money for choice. So if you stay at home, you know, it's beer and popcorn 2.0, right? For those of you who recall that chestnut from many, many years ago, but the idea that childcare could come in a check form, right?

Corey 42:09

right? And that you as parents are best situated to determine how to spend it.

Corey 42:15

So I just don't see what the incentive is right now to jump into bed with the Trudeau liberals, particularly if that's not your political inclination. This

Carter 42:22

This is my point.

Carter 42:24

Don't jump in. The liberals went either way. The liberals literally don't care. Yeah,

Corey 42:28

Yeah, but you don't say no. You say this is very interesting and it warrants serious consideration. And the public service has told us it will take three months for analysis. We really appreciate B.C. was so quick on it, but B.C. was already planning to do something like this. Perfect.

Carter 42:41

Perfect. Take your time. I'm Justin Trudeau. I'm saying take your time. I want the issue. You give me the issue. Perfect.

Zain 42:48

Perfect. So two questions here I have. So number one, you're in that Trudeau strategy sort of room. I want to talk about our province because I feel like it's interesting, right? It's probably got a premier who doesn't want, we talked about last episode, like not wanting to give Trudeau the win based on the Green Line, clearly doesn't want to give him the win, quote unquote, here. Is there anything you can do, maybe even taking the election out of mind for a second, from a pure strategy perspective, to use the FOMO of BC and try to port it to Alberta? What would you try to do to try to push the hand or box Kenny in? Is there any strategies that you'd have with perhaps the most conservative and least likely to play ball premier in Alberta if you're Team Trudeau on this fall? And then I want to talk to you about, just so I can preview it with you guys, what the Trudeau endgame looks like on child care before the election, because he's not going to sign up every province. So I want to talk about both of those things in succession. But talk to me about Alberta first, Corey. I see you making facial expressions that I cannot decode. So I know something interesting might be

Corey 43:52

be coming. I don't know. I don't know if it's interesting. But I will say, you've

Corey 43:55

you've got to keep in mind that this is still a very expensive program for the provinces if they're going to jump in on this. It's not as though the feds are paying for And it's not as though there's not fiscal

Corey 44:05

fiscal reasons why the Alberta government might say, hey, with our enormous deficit and our tax structure that's already kind of broken, I'm not sure we want to layer on an additional program. When you put on top of that the suggestion that the federal government is going to potentially push a view of child care that is not necessarily aligned with your worldview, right? You think that maybe

Corey 44:27

maybe it's fine if the mother stays home with the kids. Maybe we shouldn't be creating disincentives to that, that child care funds should flow to, you know, to single income families as well. I just, you know, I think that there are a few things you can hold on to that allow you to drag your heels. Now, it is ultimately going

Corey 44:48

going to be popular in Alberta, right? It polls well. The idea of universal child care, for all the reasons we've discussed, polls very well. In Alberta, housing is still relatively affordable, which means that if you happen to have more than a couple of kids, you're probably spending more on childcare than your mortgage if you're of a certain age. So, of course, you're not going to be in the position – or you're not going to want to say no to this thing.

Corey 45:11

But you've got a lot of good reasons not to say yes at this moment. So I just don't know. No, I mean, like, you can come in, you can say, look, BC did it.

Corey 45:20

And you could say, that's fine. But we're looking for something slightly different that reflects Alberta's particular policies

Corey 45:27

policies and worldview. And I don't know, I don't know, there are words you can find for it, that at least buy you a few months and allow you to negotiate with who

Corey 45:34

who knows what after the election.

Zain 45:37

Carter, talk to me about the Alberta strategy here. What do you feel like if you're on Team Trudeau, not on Team Kenny, if you're on Team Trudeau, what's something you could do to try to, or a series of things, if you have them, that you can do to try to make this, I shouldn't say more popular, but kind of own the issue or force the hand or box the premier in here in Alberta? Is there anything you can do?

Carter 45:56

He's already done it. He's defined a program. He's defined a cost. I mean, he's created the headline, right? This is one of the things that we talked about very early on with Elizabeth Warren's wealth tax right it wasn't a wealth tax it was a two percent tax right like two percent two percent's nothing two percent's easy um it wasn't it didn't get bogged down in the wrong language he's got this he's already got the headline he's already got the

Zain 46:20

the winning frame on child care with this proposal he

Carter 46:21

he does of course he does because keep in mind he doesn't care about winning that many seats in alberta if he wins two seats in alberta he's over the moon you know when mark kearney and george shahal win that's enough he doesn't he can stop counting at that point he needs to win seats in ontario and in quebec so in british columbia where this is even more popular so i'm not too fussed with it if i'm kenny what i'm what if i'm kenny if you're if you're flipping it around and i'm now kenny and i have to make this into a winner i have to come up with something more concrete something that's more than just a ten dollar a day daycare option something that's it's about families, something about all families, not just the ones that choose to have two income earners, right? Something about families that, you

Carter 47:06

know, you know, separated families, divorced families, you know, something about families that have one earner who stays home, you know, those types of families, we want to support as well. And we're not going to do it based on a formula concocted in Ottawa that doesn't reflect the actual realities of Alberta. And I'd actually actually require actual concrete things that Albertans want. The problem with that strategy is

Carter 47:31

is that I think that the best program is the simpler program that Trudeau is already putting forward. So he's got a far more complicated message to sell, and Trudeau has done everything he needs to do to win this issue and win this issue for the election.

Zain 47:47

Carter, you know, I'm struggling with that for a bit because it's like, Like, what is Trudeau's endgame here, right? So he's on this pre-election tour. He's trying to pick off provinces, low-hanging fruit. What does a endgame here look like before a writ call? Like, what is he trying to engineer? Like, read the tea leaves for me. Pick off the easiest provinces and show some forward momentum. Define a ballot box question. What do you think is happening here? Give me the internal plan on where the child care story ends. Maybe, Carter, I'll start with you first because you're on a roll on this. And then, Corey, I'll go to you thereafter. after. But tell me what you think is happening in that conversation on child care right now, pre-election. Get

Carter 48:26

Get four provinces on side, lose

Carter 48:28

lose the other provinces, keep the issue. That's it.

Zain 48:32

So to be clear, get four provinces on side. You have to get two more. What do you mean, lose the issue? Sorry. What do you mean? Get rid of the other ones. Yeah.

Carter 48:40

Yeah. He's got the

Carter 48:41

the issue for himself. He loses the he loses. He doesn't need child care everywhere. He's not doing this to get childcare for parents. He's not doing this to actually implement a program. He's doing this because it is an election issue that he can win on. It is simpler than, like, there are two types of politics. There's a type of politics that tries to get you elected, and there's a type of politics that tries to do the right thing. This could be both things, but this is primarily an

Carter 49:09

election issue that he needs and he wants.

Zain 49:12

He knows it's popular. He wants to bring it up during the the election. So by having for forward momentum, head into the writ period into the election. Is that what I'm hearing you say, Carter?

Carter 49:19

Carter? Perfect. Don't sign. He doesn't want the others to sign. Corey,

Zain 49:23

Corey, what's the what's the pre election endgame for Trudeau on this issue in your mind?

Corey 49:31

Well, it would be really great if they found one center right government, I think, PEI or New Brunswick would be the obvious candidates. And ultimately, that gets me to the same place that steven's at but i just i i can't get on board with his idea that you actually want the well they don't want it and therefore that's why you need a liberal government because that's why you don't want to that's why you need a provincial liberal government but that's not a provincial election like it is just losing the plot on this you are much better off having people think that this is out there as a possibility if they return a liberal government than think that even if they return a liberal government doug ford's going to block the thing because that That actually lends you to think, well, maybe Doug Ford would be willing to work with Aaron O'Toole on his child care policy, which sounds better than nothing, right?

Corey 50:17

right? So I just can't get on board with Stephen Carter's view on that one. But I think fundamentally, Trudeau's

Corey 50:23

Trudeau's steps are the same on the going forward. Get one or two more provinces on board, be

Corey 50:29

be pretty excited about it, dangle

Corey 50:31

dangle it for the rest of Canada.

Zain 50:33

Is this what you would advise Carter? Carter? You boldly said this is what he's trying to do. Was your advice and what he's trying to do, your prognostication as well as your strategic advice, are they aligned on this or would you do something different?

Carter 50:47

I love this. I think this is one of the best moves that he's made. This is the pandemic response, vaccinations, everybody kind of, the threat of the one-dose summer that we had mere weeks ago. Everything's coming up wonderful

Carter 51:02

wonderful for Trudeau and horrible for his opponents uh you know so this this to me is is a he and

Carter 51:11

and i may eat my words afterwards because i i remember lots of times the government's do a great job entering into an election and then fuck up the actual election but this is a really solid play cory

Zain 51:22

cory um tell me about this your your strategic advice if you were in team trudeau's war room or policy shop or you know uh campaign pain, machinery, would it be what you have kind of prognosticated he's doing here? Or would it be slightly different? Would you add some things, remove some things? What would you kind of say if you had some control over the throttles on this issue leading up to the election, perhaps even during the election?

Corey 51:47

I think it's a wonderful issue. If you are a parent or a soon-to-be parent and you're worried about childcare costs, I think if you are not in that group, you probably just just see the price tag maybe you are feeling positive about like what the effects could be in a societal context sure but but let's not overstate this particular issue's resonance too like it's going to it's going to be very powerful with certain groups but it does not an election make um that said he's so far ahead i think it's probably you know it's

Corey 52:16

it's probably enough with everything else to an election make i

Corey 52:20

i i don't know i don't know what you're looking for me from this answer if i'm going to be frank zane i i think he's got a good thing going here he doesn't want to make it look like it's all falling apart when we first talked about this way back when it was announced you know i i made the point and i'll make it again here that when

Corey 52:34

when these are conceptual it's great you can think about those charts that people put out and what it could mean to a parent like me the the tens of thousands of dollars right when

Corey 52:45

the program becomes real and you look at the provisos and the quid pro quos like yes you do this but then you've got to pay pay this here, or it counts as income, or whatever it turns out like, you're going to find things to dislike about it. So I actually think it's probably more popular and abstract.

Corey 52:59

So, you know, get get a couple of deals show that momentum. But am I that fussed if there's not a deal in Ontario? No, but I don't want them to think it's dead. I want them to think it's coming.

Zain 53:10

Right, right. Final question on this for both of you. A quick yes or no. Do you feel like Trudeau's got a center right government provincially in his pocket that's ready to sign on to this thing to capstone it prior to the election carter

Zain 53:23

don't think he does you think he's still hunting for one cory do you think he does it's

Corey 53:27

it's this is just a total guess i don't have yeah yeah i'm curious i

Corey 53:31

think the answer is yes i

Corey 53:33

i think there's enough of them that

Corey 53:35

that is and i think when you look in the maritimes in particular i'll bet you one of them drops yeah

Carter 53:40

when i answered the question the way i was supposed to with a single word, and Corey just added, like, 500 extra words. Well,

Zain 53:47

now I'm coming back to you because you were so bold and decisive in your no. Why do you say no, Carter, so, so decisively?

Zain 53:54

Oh, there's no reason to it. Okay, perfect.

Carter 53:56

Well, let's move on to the other part. Because I know things. Because I know things. Ain't

Zain 54:00

Ain't no care in the world. Let's talk about Aaron O'Toole. Guys, this has been—we've seen this before. This has been the wax poetic week in the pundit class, the media class, about what exactly is the problem with the Conservatives. So now we've come to the acceptance stage of, you know, they're not performing well, that there's internal panic. Many think pieces around, is it temperament, Andrew Coyne? Is it their fundraising structure? Is it the fact that Aaron O'Toole is going one way and the party doesn't want to go that way? What do you kind of make of perhaps, like, let's zoom out for a second. What I've called this week of, like, you know, problem definition for O'Toole. What do you guys kind of make of that? Like, we've seen this before with different leaders. I'm kind of curious if you've got any initial thoughts before we jump into your perspectives on what you feel like the problems might be, or if you want to be singular, what the problem might be, and then talk about the way out of it. But Corey, you're smiling, so I'm going to you first. Yeah,

Corey 54:59

Yeah, because you know what? The newspaper still gets published every day, even when the House of Commons is not at sitting. And you often see these kind of think pieces about the state of parties at this time of year. I were guilty of it, in fact, like, you know, what's

Corey 55:13

what's on the rundown? I don't know. So let's just talk generally about how the conservative party is doing. Yeah.

Zain 55:17

State of affairs sort of stuff. Yeah. And

Corey 55:19

And as soon as one person writes about it, somebody else gives their own take on it, moves forward. Now, that

Corey 55:24

that said, that they're all very interesting pieces that you've mentioned here. And the problem definition is fascinating

Corey 55:31

fascinating because a lot of people have really gone back and said maybe there's a more foundational challenge here. Maybe it's the way that we've talked about it on this show, about how they're beholden to small donors, and those small donors have gotten a little nutty. Maybe the fact is, you've just got like too angry of a group, right? And they're just too insular. And so I

Corey 55:52

think that the conservatives should be looking about that and thinking about that. But, you

Corey 55:57

you know, I don't lose your head at this moment. I mean, if there's an election in a month, it's not like you can throw out the rundown anyhow, you're kind of on the course you are. are and

Corey 56:04

and uh the reckoning will have to come if their ceiling is as low as it's predicted to be

Corey 56:10

got a problem they they can't possibly compete for government in the long term they'll win the odd election that's outside of you know it's just an enrage election but uh if

Corey 56:20

this is more a reflection of this covid moment and all of those great things steven was talking about for the liberals they'll be back yeah

Zain 56:26

yeah you know there's

Corey 56:28

there's a version of the conservative party that resonates with Canadians. People forget all of the time, but outright majority of the vote is not something the Liberals have gotten in the past couple of decades. It is something the Conservatives have gotten.

Zain 56:41

Yeah. You know, Carter, let's talk about this a bit, because you know, I want to give credit to these columns and these pieces of analysis, but I don't think any of them are saying anything that hasn't been said before, right? Party historically has a low low ceiling. They come across as a little bit downtrodden in their temperaments, maybe not like the most enthusiastic and isn't meeting the moment. You know, they've built a supporter base based on small dollar donors, which is just, you know, fueled by anger and rage. And therefore, that kind of sets the impression of the party. And so I'm paraphrasing and simplifying and perhaps even editorializing, adding my own to the mix. But maybe I'll kind of ask you, what do you kind kind of think of the sweet or the cocktail of analysis that's being offered on problem definition for O'Toole right now, before I ask you guys to put on strategy hats for Team O'Toole and let's dig out of this sort of this ditch that we're in, so to speak. But just your analysis, and then we'll jump into strategy, Carter. I

Carter 57:38

I think that most

Carter 57:39

most of the analysis starts in the idea that Aaron O'Toole is doing something wrong, or Andrew Scheer did something wrong, or Joe Clark did something wrong, or Brian Mulroney did something wrong. The truth is that you kind of have to look at the history of the Conservative Party over a long period of time. And the fact is, it's not a single party. It is a party that comes together from time to time and for a long enough period to govern for a while. But then it breaks apart because ultimately, it doesn't share. It has too many values to try and share. Right. It has too many things that it cares about and not enough things that it's willing to compromise on. And so sometimes they're prepared to compromise or they're prepared to stick together under a leader. We see that in Jason Kenney when he brings together the two halves of the Wild Rose and the Progressive Conservative Party in Alberta. We see that in Stephen Harper when he brings together, at that moment, the crap party and the old PC party. And

Carter 58:41

these things can come together for moments. They can come together under certain leaders, but they fracture under time. They fracture under pressure. And I think this is one of those fracturing moments. I don't think it's the same as when Michael Ignatieff hands off to Stéphane Dion and it's weak leadership or it's just not a moment or it happens to correlate to a period when the Conservatives are strong. I think that the Conservatives were strong in those moments and therefore the Liberals were weak. I'm not sure that anybody can hold together the Conservative Party of Canada as it's currently constituted with the number of different conservative influences that it represents without having

Carter 59:23

having to go back to the drawing board from time to time. well

Zain 59:27

well let's let's do this cory you're good it's just it's such bullshit okay

Zain 59:32

jump it jump it because i've bullshit

Corey 59:34

the conservatives have won the popular vote in four of the last five including

Zain 59:39

the sheer election yes

Corey 59:40

yes they they will probably lose this next election right just given the amount of runway they've gotten where things are but like this this notion that somehow like the country will never look at them is just is utter nonsense Because they're getting the

Carter 59:54

the majority of the vote because they're getting in or the plurality of the vote because they're getting insane numbers in the regions that they that they own. You have a regional parties and that's what this is now is this regional parties that can run up the score in a large region. They do very, very well, but they're not doing well across the country. Let's not play this game like they're just a good leader away. They're not just a good leader away. way this leader you know this leader was the best that they could choose there is no one in the wings and they're still gonna fuck it up this

Corey 1:00:28

this is just this is unreal for starters they are not shut out of any province unlike the governing liberal party right so that's

Corey 1:00:36

that's i mean i just think it's like it's just ridiculous listen

Zain 1:00:38

listen carter you sound like you sound like someone who sold his stock in otul too early and you're talking to the president and the vice president of the homeowners owners association on o2 island which is cory and i uh but but you know you guys have just carter you said you said uh draw this up or redraw it an agenda or something something triggered um something you said has triggered uh where i want to go next with this which is i'm sure all of us are familiar with what about to propose next which is we've been on a campaign either we're leading that campaign or we've been part of the senior uh brass of a campaign and And someone says, fuck this. We need a reset strategy weekend. We need a retreat. We're going to show up all on a weekend. This is a Thursday, right? We're recording this on Thursday evening. So I want us to play this game out. Something's wrong, okay? The think pieces, the feel, the look, the numbers, something's wrong. And let's, how about we try to do this together, which is going back to our days of working together, professionally at least. And if you are new to this podcast, the three of us used to work together on a professional basis at an agency and consulting firm. On a professional basis.

Carter 1:01:47

got paid. None of us wanted to hang out together. That's

Zain 1:01:49

That's right. That's right. I mean, we get paid for this, too. Thank you, WestJet. However. Nope.

Zain 1:01:57

But how about we try to do this?

Zain 1:02:00

Put together an agenda for what the strategy reset looks like for this weekend. because the agenda sets the tone of what needs to be fixed. I want each of you to offer a couple of agenda items and I want to see if we could prioritize them. I think it's interesting because, first of all, there is something in politics as a, you know, two-month-out, despite the lack of time, reset sort of weekend, retreat. We're having one this weekend. The three of us are putting the agenda together. Carter, what's a couple of things, high-level items that you're adding to that agenda? And Corey, I'm going to ask you to do the same and then let's try to mold this thing into what that weekend looks like to perhaps reshape the campaign, the party, the leader, the message, the story, whatever it needs to be, perhaps all of it. But Carter, let's start with you. Give me a few items that you're adding to the agenda with all the senior campaign folks, including the leader. We're meeting in some, you know, it's going to be in Alberta, right on the heels of the Stampede. We're meeting in Canmore. We've rented a house. We're having the strategy meeting. Give me a couple of things that you're adding to that agenda for Team O'Toole.

Carter 1:03:03

I think I'd start with available audience. audience uh there was some interesting polling today that i saw that that that basically indicated that the conservative party has the lowest available available audience of any political party except for the greens which is quite staggering that the greens still have an available political and just

Zain 1:03:19

just for our listeners can you clarify available audience you mean those that are likely or have it just would consider voting for this party yeah

Carter 1:03:27

and it's so low that there has to be a group of people a significant group of people who could be an available audience what what I'd want to be doing is saying, where are the available audiences? And I mean that demographically, psychographically, and geographically. I'd want to understand who the audiences are that could be available to us. And then I'd want to understand why they're not there for us. And I won't accept they don't like the leader. This is the leader. We've only got one. So there has to be something deeper than they don't like the leader. Oftentimes what happens is is people say they don't like something for the wrong reason, right? Or they say they like something for the

Carter 1:04:06

the wrong reason. So you buy a car because the cupholder is in a really good spot, but you never want to say that the cupholder is in a good spot. So you go and you say, well, the safety process is really good. So I think that an awful lot of the time, you're not getting, you know, in publicly available research especially, you're not getting the real reasons why people aren't considering the conservatives. conservatives so looking at the data looking at the available audience what is that what are those things there that are available to us and then how do we tonally or policy wise make a shift make a decided shift that people are going to notice so that we can actually gain those potential voters make an absolute play for them i think this is very similar to what we did in 2015 when we sat down and did um

Carter 1:04:51

um i think it was 2015 yeah we did a liberal strategy over the summer of the the 2015 where we

Carter 1:04:56

we concocted a strategy for the then third place liberal party that obviously was listened to by the liberal war. Which

Zain 1:05:04

Which won them the election. Well, this is where I'm going with this. I wish I could tell you this was a plan, but I want you guys to etch out the agenda and then let's spend some time in a future episode actually going through the agenda items and doing the strategy. But Carter, you're adding audience definition and availability to that agenda for this for the saturday morning of the

Zain 1:05:24

retreat you're also then adding subsequent shift cory what else are you adding to to the reset retreat agenda in canmore this weekend well

Corey 1:05:32

well we got to start with accessible vote but from there okay first of all i've been waiting for like three minutes to say this i know that the conservatives didn't win any seats in uh pei or newfoundland as well but

Corey 1:05:44

but uh my point

Carter 1:05:46

point lied back then just to make my point is you lied to make your both parties It's

Corey 1:05:50

somewhat reasonable by Carter's definition. Now, accessible

Corey 1:05:53

accessible vote is one thing. But OK, two points on this. One, I want to make a comment about accessible vote. It's fine that the conservative accessible vote is lower if it's kind of a mutually exclusive pool and they're the only option, if that makes any sense. Like the thing is, the NDP and the liberal vote we know is more fluid. People are more likely to go between them. The same with the Green Party and those two parties. And so their accessible vote always appears a fair bit higher. It's a bit of a mirage in Canadian politics. But what you find with conservative voters is they will often say, I have no second choice. So the

Corey 1:06:28

accessible vote becomes the vote. And it's part of why the conservatives, I would argue, probably have a fairly low floor. Now, the challenge is, and this is what I would add to the agenda, when

Corey 1:06:38

when we look entirely at the universe of people who are diehards are going to vote for us in all times because they're part of the accessible vote, we've

Corey 1:06:45

we've got to say, what does the movable vote look like, right? And I would actually try to build that a bit beyond what is currently defined as accessible. I would look at who has voted CPC in the past, who

Corey 1:06:56

who has voted conservative in the provincial elections that they've been a party of, right? And I would try to understand an accessible voter universe that I would call more like the movable voter universe, the people who are swing voters one way or the other. And I would say, what do they care about? What are their issues? How are they running things in terms of like the mental calculations as for who they're going to vote for?

Corey 1:07:20

And then I would say every conversation beyond that is only about that 20% of the population, right? The people who are voting for us who may vote for somebody else and

Corey 1:07:29

the people who are voting for somebody else who may vote for us. I don't give a shit about the people who are otherwise supporting us except for the fact that they will be volunteers and fundraising. And I don't give a shit about the people who will never vote for us. Let's make this election about those 20% and let's make sure that we're defining that universe big enough that we can actually win the election, that it has enough seats that go with it in Ontario, in British Columbia, in Quebec, and hey, maybe even Atlantic Canada.

Zain 1:07:54

So far, this is a very left-brain agenda. We're looking at accessible universe. We're looking at past voter history. We're going to do the

Corey 1:08:00

trust exercises at the start. There'll be a rope we'll all stand on. You know, whoever's been in the party longest, you know, you'll go to different parts of the rope. Oh, purity,

Zain 1:08:07

purity, quite literally a purity test. Fantastic. No, I'm looking forward to that. Carter, you have always moved when people have done the trust fall to teach them a lesson during these retreats. add add some right brain add some storytelling emotionality when does that come into an agenda like this when you're doing reset or are you going to tell me zane there's that's not part of this this is pretty much a exercise of mapping out your terrain and the data informs the storytelling and the messaging no

Carter 1:08:37

no i think the data tells us a lot but the the tone is what i was talking about earlier and i think that that could come into kind of come into this this uh storytelling piece i I think the problem with a lot of conservative pieces right now is they've forgotten how to do storytelling. There is altogether too much attack the other guy and altogether too much right-wing populism. And right-wing populism and attack the other guy, I

Carter 1:09:04

I think they just have a limited audience. We grow tired of them because you always need to keep upping the ante, especially with populism. and when your attacks don't land as they have not landed with the liberals I mean Corey tried to make the argument in our last episode that the WE scandal in some fashion impacted the liberals

Carter 1:09:23

liberals it might have impacted one of their ministers but it certainly didn't impact the

Carter 1:09:29

and arguably didn't even impact him so

Carter 1:09:31

so you know Morneau left did he leave because of the WE scandal or did he leave because he wasn't being listened to who the hell cares who's Bill Morneau no one even remembers so um this is this is the the

Carter 1:09:45

challenge for the conservatives is to actually start telling a story you know o'toole started to raise the issue of his wife and um you know she

Carter 1:09:55

she brings me a beer after i go for a run was the the exploratory tiptoe

Carter 1:10:00

tiptoe into the water um i think that if he was to characterize himself as a family person as someone who understands what family is and to put his wife adjacent to him i think that type of leadership could work really well and it would be something that we haven't seen from a conservative uh leader for for some time um so i think that that type of tone shift it would be interesting also telling stories that that are less on the antagonist side and more on the protagonist um make themselves the hero or better yet make canadians the hero of the story um but right now they're

Carter 1:10:37

they're just so focused on antagonist uh styled storytelling um that they just can't get anywhere and then they also don't have a continuous plot right um start thinking of this like a serial instead of a you know every day is a new story um

Carter 1:10:54

um so a serial meaning that every week you know every sunday They published in the old in the old newspapers that Corey and I used to read because we're ancient.

Carter 1:11:03

They would publish a serial. They would publish a story. And that story would go day to day to day to day.

Carter 1:11:08

Even some of the better comic strips that we would see in the in the in the newspaper would go day to day to day to day. And you would get five or six days and then, you know, have an impact at the end. There's no storytelling within this conservative party. There is only a day long Twitter length story that and they assume that the audience can't handle more than that. And I think that that's another one of their big failings.

Zain 1:11:33

Corey, I want to ask you one thing that Carter briefly mentioned, but this concept of the voter mindset, what we know about the voter today, what they value, what they look at, what they're looking for, either from the next leader in this country, or how would you kind of weave that in as part of an agenda in terms of whether it's vision or core value statements for a weekend retreat after, of course, available audience and accessible voter stuff that you've mentioned as well?

Corey 1:11:59

i don't give a shit about 80 of the voters because they're not they're not going to change the election they're not in play for us so while i i agree with everything steven said what i would say is the universe has to be much narrower and if you try to capture the general zeitgeist you will lose what's important is that you are focusing specifically on the election in front of you and the election in front of you is not for every single canadian's vote the election in front of you is for a relatively small group of votes and that is how you determine how you move forward now uh i

Corey 1:12:32

feel like uh our agenda setting is uh is slow right now it is slow yeah but

Zain 1:12:39

but do you want to do you want to accelerate the process do you have do you have a big thing to to throw onto the onto the agenda like

Corey 1:12:45

like just a whole battery of various things yeah i'm i'm gonna pitch that we follow the same agenda as our liberal strategy episode and that i upload it to the feed i think think it's episode 553 i'm gonna look it up okay

Corey 1:12:58

okay we can we can upload it people can listen they can tell us if we're full of shit yeah

Carter 1:13:02

yeah you know what that would be that would be good because i mean if they like it i'm

Carter 1:13:06

i'm committing zane to doing one uh

Carter 1:13:08

uh you and i corey can can fuck off but zane will do a conservative strategy episode here's

Zain 1:13:14

here's what i like about this though i feel like it sets a agenda of some sort that that that a political party quite literally might consider if they need We need to have a panic reset weekend. And I know the three of us probably I'm going to make an assumption. I certainly have been involved in one of these or a couple of these in the past where we've had to, you know, do a little bit of a pivot or a reset or just a recalibration on certain things and just get everyone on the same page. And so I feel like we've got enough meat on the bone, but let's use that as part of a conversation starter for a conservative strategy episode, which I think I want to do. I feel like there'd be a lot of meat on the bone, because as you know, every time we do one of these, we anoint the next government. Corey, that is actually

Zain 1:13:58

actually how it works. And for the Homeowners Association, that is Corey and I on O'Toole Island, that may not be a bad return on our investment, Carter, with you on the outside looking in. Let's move it on to our next segment, our over, under, and our lightning round. Guys, I'm starting here. I'm starting here. Overrated or underrated Stephen Carter? Trudeau says that he'll leave domestic vaccine passports up to the provinces. Is that overrated or underrated in your mind?

Carter 1:14:26

um i think it's probably underrated because i think the rest of the world's going to be asking for something vaguely resembling a vaccine passport um it depends entirely what we're talking about when we're talking about vaccination passports if we're going to be traveling to the united states we're probably not going to need one uh but for those of us that the view the world is actually you know round and has more than just land borders um going to europe or going to other countries um on other continents even uh it may require us to have a vaccine passport. So I'm a little disappointed that Trudeau is not stepping up, but I think he had no choice than to hand it back to the provinces. And ultimately, the provinces are going to be doing a vaccine passport. They're just not going to call it such.

Zain 1:15:07

Corey, same question to you. Overrated, underrated. Trudeau says he will leave domestic vaccine passports up to the provinces.

Corey 1:15:16

Well, what choice do you have? Because it would just pick a fight with all of these various various provinces at a time when you're actually sitting pretty on the COVID file. So you would be jumping back into a burning building and having a contentious argument on this particular matter. So if you've got an election coming in a month, two months, this is not the fight you want to have. Leave it to the provinces. People will be distracted for a bit. You've got some time to figure it all out.

Zain 1:15:41

spend a few minutes on this next one. We can certainly tease it here today because I do want to spend some time. It's back to our home province. Corey Hogan, and overrated or underrated in your mind that after a lot of dialogue and conversation and back and forthing that an Alberta pension plan and an Alberta police force do not find themselves on a plebiscite ballot for upcoming municipal elections? In your mind, is that overrated or underrated? I

Corey 1:16:08

think it's underrated. I'm hoping that it's the start of this government clearing Clearing the tables a bit and stopping so many of these distractions, focusing in on the things that Albertans are more fixated on right now, things like the economy, things like health care. It's been a kind of a regular critique of mine, I suppose, that there's a lot of open files on this government. And I suppose, in a sense, not having the referendum keeps the file open. But we

Corey 1:16:38

we don't need this. We don't need this as a province right now as a distraction. I was relieved to see we wouldn't be talking about a Canada pension plan, Alberta pension plan split, and very relieved as well we would not be talking about an Alberta provincial police force.

Zain 1:16:53

Carter, same question for you. Overrated, underrated, that an Alberta pension plan and an Alberta police force do not find themselves on a plebiscite for upcoming municipal elections here in Alberta? Alberta?

Carter 1:17:04

Underrated, because I think we have to recognize what did make it, you know, because we're going to do the daylight savings, you know,

Carter 1:17:12

know, referendum, which is polling like above 70% to keep either daylight savings time or standard time.

Carter 1:17:21

People want don't want to keep it anymore. So the polls are huge. So really, realistically, this is just something you could do through leadership you could just lead and just do this albertans would be very very grateful if you did so we're doing that meaningless referendum uh we're also doing a meaningless referendum on equalization um because uh you can try to change the constitution this is just first of all it's insane uh because even without section two section one still applies and um so

Carter 1:17:52

so i think it's 37.1 i can't remember 137.1 cory do you remember off the top of your head neither

Corey 1:17:56

neither of us do we're wouldn't

Corey 1:17:57

wouldn't be 137 no

Carter 1:18:00

anyways my point is um these are meaningless referendums the ones that would have mattered are the alberta police force because they if we'd voted for that that would have been a boondoggle of epic proportions as would have the alberta pension plan these were bad ideas and seeing them die is great uh and i guess for that reason um they're underrated because people will not understand the bullets we have dodged i'm

Zain 1:18:26

i'm going to talk to you you guys about equalization question strategy going forward in future episodes however talk to me very quickly both of you about the daylight savings question on uh the the ballot what do you make of that from a strategy perspective carter i'll stick with you because you were going uh anyways i

Carter 1:18:43

i don't know because at one point we thought that the strategy was going to be that that he would put right wing issues on the ballot to try

Carter 1:18:49

try and bring right right wing people to the polls because we tend to elect left-wing mayors we tend not to to elect right-wing mayors in in alberta um

Carter 1:19:00

um well in the major cities in alberta um but that that is a you

Carter 1:19:06

you know this is a universal issue the ndp brought it forward at one point they they were going to be the the heroes that saved us from our lack of sleep uh one hour every year um which is an issue that has gone well beyond where

Carter 1:19:20

where it needs to go. At any rate, I think that this is a stupid thing

Carter 1:19:30

and away we go. I'm just leaving it there.

Zain 1:19:33

Corey, tell me about the strategy of putting it on the municipal elections in October.

Corey 1:19:37

Well, it was always popular. It was popular when it was a private member's bill by Thomas Dang, an NDP MLA. But it didn't go forward because in

Corey 1:19:48

in some ways, it's not complicated, right? In other ways, it is complicated and powerful commercial interests are not very enthused about it, particularly if it puts us out of lockstep with the West Coast and kind of changes TV programming, messes with when hockey games are on, things of that nature, right? It's one of these things that's a no-brainer except for the fact that it's It's not to certain people. So if you are the government, putting it to a referendum I think is smart because it will pass with 70%, 80%. And then you say, hey, I'm sorry, interest X, but this is so wildly popular and we put it to the people and they decided to do it. So it's a way that you can sort of preserve those relationships. And it's always, in my opinion, a

Corey 1:20:32

a canny strategy to kick it up to the bosses on an issue that doesn't matter to you one whit, right? Right. Because it allows the public to make the choice. Carter

Zain 1:20:39

Carter loves it. I can I can tell he loves it. He's very he's very excited. It will draw Stephen Carter to the polls. You're

Carter 1:20:46

You're elected to lead.

Zain 1:20:48

Carter's a big fan of direct democracy. Let's get him started

Zain 1:20:51

on this. Let's move it on to our next question here. Corey, I'm going to stick with you on this one. The ethics commissioner has set to look into the liberal data contracts. We talked about these last time, the data contracts that were that were signed with NGP Van and other distributors. now the ethics commissioner is set to look into these uh contracts by the liberals overrated or underrated in your mind i

Corey 1:21:11

think it's underrated because this could drop at a very awkward time if anything this probably makes me think the election will come faster because the minute we're in an election i don't think the ethics commissioner is going to drop something that would be pretty wild carter

Zain 1:21:23

carter overrated underrated in your mind that the ethics commissioner is set to look into the liberal data contracts um

Carter 1:21:29

um given that this ethics commissioner seems to have no no problem, you know, actually finding fault with the government. I think this is probably underrated. This is something that could, as Corey said, prove interesting.

Zain 1:21:42

Carter, I'm sticking with you on this one. In Alberta, we've seen that the finance minister here has talked about right-sizing. I don't know if those are actually his words, so I'm going to paraphrase. Right-sizing salaries for nurses here in Alberta with a 3% wage reduction. What do you you think of that uh strategy is that is that overrated underrated in your mind from the perspective of um uh

Zain 1:22:04

from the perspective of the alberta government here this

Carter 1:22:07

this is totally overrated i mean going after nurses at a time when we just survived the pandemic what the fuck were they trying to do i don't understand it doesn't make any sense to me cory must understand it because cory's smarter than i am right cory cory

Zain 1:22:19

cory overrated underrated the the cut uh or the the wage rollback or the cut to nurses here in alberta uh

Corey 1:22:28

don't think that nurses wages will ultimately be uh cut and so if this is kind of this catalyst to getting a deal and it's it's not uh last steps but it's it's a way that they're going to push forward then i think it's just fine what i will say is if i were the government i would be you

Corey 1:22:45

you know folding is too strong but i would be aggressively resolving all of my labor tables as quickly as i could because again i just don't think you need the distraction over the next couple of years particularly with health care workers as we're coming out of a out of a pandemic now is the time to focus on how you're going to get re-elected in 2023 and that means focusing on the economy uh not spending your time and effort talking about issues where you historically pull much worse than your ndp opposition health care education people are supporting the nurses people are supporting the teachers people are supporting the doctors. So your time is up on solving these problems. So it's time just to cut bait and start focusing on what it's going to take to win the next election.

Zain 1:23:31

Final question here, and I'm going to start with you, Corey, on this one. We can spend a bit of time on this because it is important. Chatelaine, great or greatest publication, Corey Hogan?

Corey 1:23:42

They had me up until they started opining on baked goods. They're going to get somebody killed with that bad advice steven

Zain 1:23:49

steven carter chatelaine magazine a cornerstone a pillar of canadian culture great or greatest publication i'll

Carter 1:23:57

i'll tell you something the profile they did of me was very successful and i was grateful did

Zain 1:24:03

did you actually have a profile did

Zain 1:24:05

did you have a profile at chatelaine magazine i

Carter 1:24:09

i guess you're gonna have to look it up i

Zain 1:24:12

am willing to kill this podcast cast with dead air to look it up i'm i'm willing to do that i am not i'm not above and or below that that's

Corey 1:24:21

that's a wrap on episode 934 of the strategist my name is cory hogan with me as always zane velgey steven carter and we'll see you next time

Zain 1:24:39

carter chatelaine hold on dean carter from chatelaine you're not dean carter hold on hold on hold on hold on steven steven carter you just gotta look

Carter 1:24:47

look for it do you know how to use the google yeah

Zain 1:24:49

yeah i don't know how to spell chatelaine though oh

Carter 1:24:51

oh that's gonna take some time uh

Zain 1:24:53

uh hold on hey

Zain 1:24:54

hey that's carter no

Zain 1:24:56

no oh paul okay no no are you jimmy carter yeah

Carter 1:24:59

i'm one of the carters okay

Corey 1:25:03

here's the thing about

Transcript