Transcript
Zain
0:02
This is The Strategist, episode 936. My name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, happy Victoria Day. Pre
Zain
0:11
Pre-Victoria Day. Victoria Day long weekend. Well,
Carter
0:14
most people will listen to this. It's raining, it's snowing. I mean, how is this happy times? You
Zain
0:21
mean, listen, Russell Westbrook needs
Zain
0:24
needs to figure out how
Zain
0:26
how to stay in bounds.
Carter
0:29
that's what i was thinking too like
Carter
0:31
like you guys have no idea the weekend i've had with sports i mean adelaide beat melbourne i i don't even know how
Carter
0:38
how to deal with it it's just it was so unexpected and it was only by one point for
Corey
0:42
for a bit i want to hear how much you have beyond this like i want to know if this is it yeah
Carter
0:47
the thing that made me excited was that in the oval the adelaide oval the crowd absolutely lost their minds because it was in the last minute and a half that the The final goal was kicked. And to be up by one point over Melbourne, who had been undefeated this season. And last year, Adelaide was bottom of the ladder. I mean, it was like, it's a massive step forward. And to see all those fans in the Adelaide Oval, I mean, it was out of control. It was absolutely wild.
Corey
1:14
wild. So we've managed to establish, you know, the name of the arena, that close games are exciting, and
Corey
1:20
you can read the standings. Yes, you're a true sports fan. I
Carter
1:23
I love it. It's so good.
Zain
1:26
uh thank you carter i don't know why i let cory allow you to keep going but here we are you've
Carter
1:31
you've lost control again zane yeah
Zain
1:33
yeah yeah and i've lost steam i've lost steam for the show speaking of which i have a peloton bike at home now uh which enables me to uh uh do the outdoors without uh carter as you'd say the outdoors well
Carter
1:45
well i just don't understand why wouldn't you just buy a bike why wouldn't you just go outside you live like adjacent to the bike path right like you can literally just give people
Zain
1:55
people my address carter
Zain
1:55
carter why don't you just give people my address while you're at it well
Carter
1:59
i don't actually know your address i know i know the general vicinity in which you live and then when i get near your house i just text you and hope that you come to the door because i don't remember which door is yours because i'm confused most of the time i
Carter
2:11
you could ride a bike you could ride a bike i
Zain
2:14
i could but i won't i won't i'll this listen uh i'm gonna take you mountain biking this uh this summer this you're
Zain
2:20
you're not you're not going to you're not going it's
Carter
2:22
it's going to be fantastic. Corey, is there anything
Zain
2:23
anything else that we need to talk about? As you know, people tune in for these first three minutes. Some people may call it adolescent banter, but I feel like it's what enables the stickiness for the rest of the show.
Corey
2:36
We got anything about fast food going on? I had one of those Wendy's strawberry... Oh, yeah? What did you think? Was
Zain
2:41
Was it any good? It was fine. It was okay. You know
Zain
2:43
Was it as white as advertised? It was.
Corey
2:46
was. There was not a trace of pink in it. It looked like a vanilla one. That's good. it
Zain
2:51
it why does it advertise used to be of course the uh stephen carter motto uh what do you mean used to
Carter
2:58
still my motto let's let's
Zain
2:59
let's jump into our first segment our first segment celebrating victoria cory
Zain
3:06
cory it is victoria day long weekend which means there's a connection to the queen which means we need to talk about oh no
Corey
3:13
governor general we're not it
Zain
3:18
cory we We still do not have a governor general. Of course, Dominic. And who noticed? And who noticed? And who cared?
Zain
3:23
Let's spend as little time or as much time as Stephen Carter dictates on this segment. Carter,
Zain
3:29
we don't have a governor general. There is a shortlist being prepared in the coming weeks. Very quickly, one question to each of you on this segment. And then if there's more, there's more. I doubt there will be. There'll be more. There'll be follow-ups. Thank you so much for, once again, another prediction by Stephen Carter. follow
Carter
3:47
follow-up questions for sure uh
Zain
3:48
uh carter how does uh how does trudeau not make a mistake in the in the coming weeks with this uh this announcement and this appointment regardless of who it is i
Carter
3:57
i would suggest not signaling uh political correctness instead just choosing someone for the the old-fashioned values of competency so you know call me crazy but just choose somebody who's competent and uh don't worry about signaling political correct correctness i think that that's That's our biggest challenge so far is political correctness over competence.
Zain
4:19
I've already gotten the sage advice I was looking for. So, Corey, I'm going to pose a different question to you. In Justin Trudeau's priority list between 1 and 4,000, where does this stand?
Corey
4:31
Okay. Can we rewind a bit and just marvel at the fact that Stephen is doing his very best to get canceled on the least substantial issue that could possibly be in front of us on
Corey
4:41
a podcast? It is possible to actually reflect the diversity of this country and find somebody who's competent, Stephen. And I suspect that
Carter
4:48
that maybe they're going to try. I'm not suggesting you can't find somebody who's competent, who's a visible minority or, you know, any of the number of political correct variables that you would like to choose from, Corey. But I suspect that the prime minister has chosen on some very shallow variables to this point. Like an astronaut. Like a scientist. What
Zain
5:09
What you miss with Carter's analysis is when he is advising the prime minister to not be politically correct. He himself, while giving that advice, does not want to be politically correct. I appreciate you modeling the behavior that you wish
Corey
5:22
wish for others to
Zain
5:24
to extend. Corey, of course, all facetiousness aside, what is the advice to the prime minister right now? The list that LeBlanc and team will send will be more than one, less than 10. And what is the framework of not scoring an own goal? Let me call it that, that Trudeau needs to look at here.
Corey
5:44
Well, just whoever you pick, make sure they understand what the job is. And this is a problem with all sorts of ceremonial jobs and all sorts of walks of life, right? Yeah.
Corey
5:54
is one of these things where it's very tempting for politicians to say, well, I want to see you as a partner here, or I want you involved in some way, shape, or form to try to flatter their preferred candidate into the role. But you have to be candid about what the role is and what the limits of that role is. And I think one of the problems with Payette is that there was clearly never an exchange of information, both the transmission of this is the job and then the receiving back of I understand this is the job because she took an entirely different approach to it. And it was one that ultimately got her set up at odds with the prime minister's office. And even though she resigned with a cloud about how she treated staff, the reality is that was not a productive, healthy relationship with the PMO
Corey
6:35
PMO for some time before that. And I suspect that, you know, they were going to be much more careful about doing the vetting this time around, making sure it's not somebody who's had workplace challenges in the past. But beyond that, there needs to be clarity on the role and clarity as to the nature of of the quote unquote partnership. And let's be clear, it's not a partnership. The prime minister is the boss. The governor general is a figurehead.
Zain
6:59
Carter, I want you to react to Corey's statement here because, you know, often to Corey's point, some of these roles have, you know, some very defined elements. This is a ceremonial job. You'll need to do these 10 things. Here's what it looks like. Here's, you know, around these times, here's exactly and tactically what you need to do. And then there's like a lot of open space, right? Then there's like the day to day where you'll engage with community or you'll do outreach. How much would you advise, if LeBlanc is giving the list of eight to 10 names, how much would you advise as part of that eight to 10 names as to what Corey said, that you include the framework of start more like crystalline defining what the job is, even in the flexible space that it once existed in?
Carter
7:43
Well, I think that Corey's exactly right. I mean, the job
Carter
7:46
job needs to be understood for what it is, because it has ceremonial elements and then it also has public facing elements um so the ceremonial is actually relatively straightforward sign the things that come across your desk um when the prime minister comes and asks you to drop a writ do so and if things get a little more complicated than that then rely on advisors um but the the public facing elements are on they could be as important i think they're important i think when cory says that you know not having a gg for the last X number of months. Has anybody noticed? Yeah, I think people have noticed, and I think that we would notice if we didn't
Carter
8:24
didn't have the Governor General Awards, if we didn't have all of the various ceremonies. God, we'd
Corey
8:30
we'd have to rename them the Prime Minister's Awards. That
Carter
8:32
That would be tragic, because then they'd be politicized. Then they would be politicized. Yeah, there's nothing anybody cares about
Carter
8:38
more than getting the name of somebody they're going to forget. It's not political. It's not political. That's what I'm saying. I'm right, you're wrong. Just
Corey
8:45
um so hey why don't we just send them a letter from the country of canada who gives a fuck who's gonna
Corey
8:50
the letter canada can who gives a fuck is
Carter
8:52
is that gonna be you with some sort of electric signing machine canada captain
Carter
8:57
captain cory canada why
Corey
8:59
makes about as much sense as the current system that i
Carter
9:01
i did here you are in fact on the short list so
Zain
9:06
oh good okay sorry we didn't want to do this whole roundabout way to tell you cory but yeah so uh you want to take anything back god no okay no that's good just just to let you know hang
Carter
9:20
hang on a second heather can i get a beer is that can oh well
Zain
9:29
well played that is a joke for maybe seven people uh our podcast is a podcast for seven people so that is fine keep going
Carter
9:37
going i would like to just make a note that she is not getting me a beer she looked at me oh now you care about
Carter
9:44
correctness and she's walking I'm walking away. This is not going my way. I'm
Zain
9:47
I'm glad you've tuned in. I don't want to hear any more about this. Let's move it on to our next segment. Our next segment, 1% Problems. Guys, I want to focus the attention to here in Alberta, where the Alberta's Teacher Association have lost confidence in the education of Minister Adriana Lagrange, according to a Sunday vote by association representatives. The annual representative assembly of the ATA, the Alberta Teachers Association, held virtually this year, acts as a parliamentary function to pass resolutions. It includes more than 450 teacher delegates to represent each of its, I believe, close to 60 locals. A resolution was put forward to express a loss of confidence in the Education Minister, Adrienne Lagrange, was jointly drafted by 20 of the 55 locals, so just shy of 60, and that resolution passed. Now, here's the question. The reason I called the segment 1% Problems is that, Stephen Carter, I'm going to start with you. The resolution passed with 99% support. Tell me something. Is this just super, super inside baseball from a group that you'd expect not to, regardless of what this conservative government did, be on side? Or is this historically bad? And I'm trying to get the most objective take here. I know that it's easy to pile on on Kenya. I'm not going to suggest that you're about to do that. But from an objective political read of the situation, is this actually a big deal or are we overblowing it both from the standpoint, A, this was jointly drafted by 20 locals, B, that it was put forward to resolution, C, it passed with 99% support? court?
Carter
11:23
Well, I mean, I think that you can get pummeled by the unions or you can get pummeled by school boards. You can't get pummeled by both. And right now, it's not just the ATA. Explain
Zain
11:33
Explain that to me. Why can't you get pummeled by both?
Carter
11:36
Because the reason you have school boards is to take the hit for you, right? The reason you have school boards is the school board are the ones that are screwing up your kids' education, not the provincial government. But the school boards have successfully passed the problem to the province. Teachers have successfully passed the problem to the province. I mean, and
Carter
11:55
and here's my confession. When in 2011, when Alison Redford won the leadership for the Progressive Conservative Party, she does not win. She does not win that leadership without teachers and nurses. Teachers especially. We made a very public pledge to return, I think, some $120 million in funding that had been cut. In the overall scheme of things, not a significant amount of money. but it was significant to teachers and they came out in droves for us. Teachers are super important because they aren't politically left and they aren't politically right. Most of them are just happy to kind of get by and be
Carter
12:34
be a part of the community. And they have at their hands huge relationships with parents. So when you have teachers, you have a significant portion of of the population. When you lose teachers, you lose significant portions of the population. It's the same thing holds with nurses. Anybody who's ever had a loved one or sadly been in a hospital on their own, the nurses carry you. The nurses are the ones that get you through day to day. And if the nurses are unhappy, you're unhappy. And so having nurses on the government side, having doctors on the government side, having ATA, having school boards, this
Carter
13:09
this all adds up. And when you start to lose one after the other, the ATA is not viewed as a traditional union. The ATA is not looked at like the Alberta Union of Provincial Employees or the Canadian Union of, you know, these things, these unions that are more union-like are seen as negatives. The teachers are seen as people from your community. And so losing them is really bad. But is it not a union,
Zain
13:34
Carter, at the end of the day? Like this doesn't fall into the same track as union politics?
Carter
13:41
Totally. Totally union politics. I'm just not sure that this, you know, that it matters to people at this particular moment. I think that the people will say teachers don't like this. And right now they're inclined to say that's bad.
Zain
13:56
Corey, same same starting point for you. Scope out the intensity for me. Like, is this is this real and meaningful or is this inside baseball and over overhyped?
Corey
14:07
definitely think it's one of those things people will be able to point to for several months, just as we still talk about the Alberta Medical Association giving 98% non-confidence in Shandro. But to be clear, this is 99% of representatives. These are the people who are chosen. Well,
Corey
14:22
that's, you know, I mean, it's, you know, there's a filter, there's a gap in between. And the people who tend to put themselves up for representation in any organization tend to be a little more militant and often will vote strategically if they're trying to send a message. And this is potentially a good example of that. But I want to tell you a story. And that story is that in 1946, Joseph Stalin ran elections to the Supreme Soviet. And in those elections, Stalin, the Bolsheviks got 99% of the vote and 1% voted against. So non-confidence in our minister of education is as popular as Joseph Stalin in a Joseph Stalin run election right now. I mean, like the percent is pretty extreme. And I think that that's got to give the government a bit of pause because they're definitely playing for keeps, right? They're not fucking about and they're making it very clear. They're very mad about the state of the relationship between the province of Alberta and the Alberta Teachers Association.
Zain
15:21
Corey, I'm going to stick with you for this. So, you know, they send a message. How do you as Kenny point to this, or UCP, government of the day, how do you point to this as isolated incident versus pattern? Because you've already mentioned another proof point if you wanted to mention a pattern with Shandro. You know, how are you trying to take this and use
Zain
15:45
use it for, you know, try to diminish its prowess, so to speak?
Corey
15:50
you just say it's all politics, it's all optics. And yes, I mean, we are trying to write a ship here. The teachers' compensation needs to be brought in line. Albertans across the province have had to have their wages reduced to deal with this economic downturn, blah, blah, blah. You know, all of the standard UCP talking points on this matter. I think that there's going to be a pretty compelling proposition
Corey
16:12
proposition to an audience if you say that, too, right? The counterpoint, you mean? Yeah, for whatever reason, there's a whole lot of people in this world who, when they suffer, would be very happy if other people suffer as well. And
Corey
16:23
And if my wages go down, I think your wages should go down. And to be fair, there's also people who are deeply anxious about the fiscal state of the province, given that Jason Kenney and the UCP government and allies have for many years been talking about this fiscal disaster that we have, which was part of their proposition for this is why you've got to replace the NDP. and the deficit has just gotten worse the debt has just gotten worse things have have gotten markedly uh downhill from where they were in 2019 so if if you have managed to convince people about how bad it was then they're going to look at it now and they're going to think the sky is fucking falling and they're going to want to see reductions done to teachers salaries whatnot but this is obviously this is much bigger than although i think tied into the ongoing negotiations negotiations on everything under the sun all of the various public sector contracts we have this this uh curriculum is incredibly unpopular it's what out of 61 62 i can't remember the exact number of school boards 56 have said they will not pilot it representing vast
Corey
17:26
vast vast majority of the population of the population of the students that are out there um and the idea that the government would push forward with it anyways, I think really is quite offensive to teachers, and for good reason. It's like, you're just, you're going to create this in a back room, talking to quote-unquote experts, you're then going to bring it forward, school boards everywhere are going to say, whoa, no, for a bunch of reasons that we've gone over in this show, we're not willing to do this, and then you're going to try to ram it forward anyhow. So really, when you think about it, and I don't want to get too simple about this, you've got the labor relations side of it, and you've got the fact that they're professionals, that side And the government of the day is kind of offending them on both fronts right now. So
Corey
18:07
So it can't be that surprising to people that 99% of representatives would be opposed. Your question about Jason Kenney, though, I think he's got to kind of jujitsu it and say, well, yeah, we are trying to change things here. This is, as we all know, blah, blah, blah, like a system that was in serious need of an overhaul, our test scores were dropped, whatever they, you know, those old chestnuts they always bring forward, you know, dropping from best in the world to second best in the world or whatever that we're supposed to panic about. Yeah. And that's got to be the line. I don't know if it's particularly compelling, but it's going to have resonance for some people.
Zain
18:42
Carter, I want to talk about that resonance for a second. And for
Zain
18:46
a long time, there's a perception that the teachers, and more specifically, you know, the ATA representing the teachers, kind of has this halo effect, right? Like, you've got teachers. Like, who can hate teachers, right? Like, they teach your kids. We always know that they're overworked. They're underpaid. Like, you know, it's not like doctors, perhaps, where you're like these rich, prick doctors, right, which is an easy sort of line. No, no. But I think for a lot of people, it's an easy escape hatch. Am I right in saying that there's like a delicacy with how the UCP might need to navigate teachers? And perhaps can you speak to your experience around teachers? I know you've spoken to them in terms of a voting block. Can you speak to the delicacy around how to navigate with the teachers group in particular as it relates to just as perceived, maybe it's perceived because I'd love to validate it, halo effect that they may have with their place and position in community? Am I making sense there?
Carter
19:41
Yeah, I think that the, so first of all, I don't think that teachers have the same halo as other professions. I think that teachers, I think that when you've had your kid in school, you
Carter
19:53
you very quickly find out there are different types of teachers, right? And some teachers are amazing and other teachers are okay. And you'll hear a lot of complaints. Every year there's a complaint about the grade two teacher in the elementary school. Everybody complains. and and so um because you get to know them and because they're interacting with your own children you develop very very critical
Carter
20:16
critical opinions of some teachers but in general teachers reflect your community teachers are of your community and there's three kind of unions that i put into that category nurses teachers firefighters they are in your community right uh police officers are different because they carry guns um there's a there's a standoffishness with police officers There's a difference between doctors because of the socioeconomic factors. There's there's a difference between different types of unions. But, you
Carter
20:45
you know, when you think of teachers, when you think of nurses and when you think of firefighters, their middle income, you know, people who live in the same communities as we do that are just trying to get things, get through the get through the day, just like all of us. And they have a different relationship with their communities, in my experience. um so when you lose those three or when you start losing those groups you're losing the interactive or the connectivity with the social fabric of your community um and that to me is is what kenny's risking with this uh i don't think though that they're above criticism i think that some of the stuff that they that the teachers have been hit with does stick you know this idea that teachers know better teachers know more about what my kid's supposed to be learning than i do I
Carter
21:32
that was true when I was a kid. I'll tell you something, when I went to school and if the teacher said, you know, the kid's not picking it up or the kid's not doing what needs to be done, the teacher's word was law. But today's society, parents think that they know way more than they do.
Carter
21:47
it's super, it's undermined some of that relationship. But I still think the teachers right now have a ridiculously high place in the community. And this is going, this is going to sting in part because so many people have seen the the curriculum, and so many people have a negative opinion of it. So
Zain
22:02
So Carter, if I can summarize, just tell me if I'm putting words in your mouth, it's not so much that they've got this glow or halo effect as untouchable, but more so, to your perspective, how much they are embodiments of community. And because they're embodiments of community in perhaps demographics, etc., where they are, how they access, that their political power is less so that they have this critical job function, but more so how spread out and in community and entrenched community that they are. Is that fair to say? Heather goes
Carter
22:32
goes and walks the dog every morning with a teacher,
Carter
22:35
right? And everybody has a teacher in their social network. Teachers are, you
Carter
22:40
you know, there's so many teachers and they are part of our social network. You know, I don't know a welder, but I do know teachers, right? And I think that that kind of interconnectivity changes the way that we relate to people. So that's the connectivity that I'm talking about. They're part of our community. And I don't really think it matters what community you're from. There are teachers from that community and teachers in that community.
Carter
23:07
So many teachers. I'm
Zain
23:08
I'm curious to hear your take on Carter's analysis here around, you know, where the political power, so to speak, if I can kind of paraphrase my question, of teachers comes from.
Corey
23:20
Well, it's one of those things that I don't have good polling data on right at the tip of my hand. And there's a lot of interpolation you can do based on some of the statistics available. Right off the bat, we do know that teachers, like doctors, are much more trusted than
Corey
23:33
than politicians. So when
Corey
23:34
you start thinking about that dynamic, you've got to consider that. I also know that during
Corey
23:40
COVID, there was a fair bit of polling that showed Canadians wanted teachers to get paid more to deal with COVID. That, to me, doesn't suggest that Canadians feel teachers are deeply overpaid. I, in the last three minutes here, did quick Googling to try to find polling on teachers' pay. I couldn't find anything that would be remotely relevant besides for that particular COVID chestnut here. But I'll tell you, I think that it's not so much that the public, so it's a little nuanced though, right? Teachers and doctors have kind of different versions of this, right? People
Corey
24:10
People generally think that doctors are overpaid, but they like their doctor, right? With teachers, it's almost the inverse. They generally think teachers are paid well, but they might think a A certain teacher is overpaid, right? They think individual teachers can be crappy. And I think part of that is we're just exposed to Carter's point to a lot more teachers throughout our life, right? We see the good teachers. We see the bad teachers. The peaks and valleys are apparent to us. And unlike a physician, we don't really get to pick our teacher, right? Like if you've got a bad doctor, you just go to a different doctor's office. You've got a bad teacher, you've got to bear it for a year. And that's really frustrating as
Corey
24:44
as a parent, right? And so I don't think that people in general think that teachers are overpaid. But I do think that people think teachers have too many job protections, like if you were going to push and pull on that. And so I think it's an area of, you know, even teachers will complain about bad teachers, I guess is the point. And so it's an interesting area where maybe teachers don't have as much leverage. But I think what's fascinating about this fight that's going on right now between the government and the teachers is the government's not picking that ground to fight on, right?
Corey
25:17
right? Right. Like the ground that as far as I can tell, teachers are like the ATA is the weakest on there. They're not doing that. They're doing across the board cuts. They're doing a curriculum where they're writ large, picking these battles with teachers rather than picking ground that perhaps would be an easier first
Corey
25:33
fight. Like soft tissue
Zain
25:34
tissue on a public opinion.
Corey
25:35
Or at least making that the centerpiece of a broader conversation about reorganizing education. But that's not really what's happening. So I find it a bit fascinating. And in terms of the government's tactics. Yeah. So I guess my point would be, I feel like the government is picking the
Corey
25:50
the lowest ground, the weakest ground from which to start a fight with the teachers on here. And that to me, ultimately, to give you a short version of your question is, I think that the power rests with the teachers on the fights that are going on right now. Yeah.
Zain
26:05
Carter, you know, given the nuanced reality that I think both of you have teased out here that you've started and Corey's added to, let's finish the segment off by giving some advice to the ATA. They seem to probably have a good weekend. They're probably celebrating, right, in the sense that, hey, listen, 99%, we sent the message we wanted to, right? Let's just say that was their goal heading into the weekend. Hey, we sent that message. We'd have loved for it to be 100 to make it a true Iraqi election, but it was 99%. 100 would have been worse, by the way. Yeah, we're in totally worse.
Zain
26:34
Interesting. I'm curious to hear that opinion. I get it now that I've said it out loud in terms of why, or suspect why.
Zain
26:41
Carter, if you're giving them advice, how do you ensure that they don't overplay their hand with their position and embodiment in community with their goals? goals? Because I think that is something that history could be a teacher of in certain ways. But knowing the terrain that government is starting the fight on, to Corey's point, knowing the nuanced reality, what's some advice that you'd give to the ATA so as to not over leverage their political power, if I can call it that?
Carter
27:09
I would say arm the teachers and take it to the social networks, right? So you guys know I'm a big fan of the social network, social network being the groups of people that normally gather. And I think that what's going to happen is... And just
Zain
27:22
just so be clear, when you say arm the teachers, you don't mean in a U.S. way. No, I don't mean in a U.S. way. Okay, just to
Carter
27:29
No, I mean, arm them with really clear talking points. Make sure that everybody has a really clear understanding of what is actually happening, what's actually at risk. Because I sometimes think that the
Carter
27:41
the more you know, sometimes the harder it is to speak to others about it. So teachers may know a tremendous amount about the curriculum and all of the challenges that are in the curriculum, but a parent may not want to know all of that. They just want to know a couple of little tidbits, a couple of tidbits that they can jump into. You know, like one of the tidbits might be that it looks like it was, you know, plagiarized off of a UK website or a US website where they were looking at year seven and they equated that to seven-year-olds. year seven being you know grade seven as we would have it so 12 year olds topics that were unintended for 12 year olds are now being taught to seven year olds that that type of stuff will drive parents batty they don't need to know the information specific to Charlemagne they just need to know that this information was gathered improperly and it was it
Carter
28:38
created it's going to to create havoc and make it less likely that their their children are going to be prepared for the future one of the other things is i
Carter
28:47
i'm so tired of this government this government's saying that our scores are going down show me the show me the data show me the data because when i look at the data i can't see any of these scores going down we are an amazing performing uh jurisdiction for for primary education and somehow this government's turned it into a bad thing and i i honestly can't understand it. It absolutely baffles me. And I think that teachers need to be talking about that too. Being told a lie by the Kenney government isn't new to us in Alberta. I think that everybody is going to believe that Kenney is playing fast and loose with the truth.
Zain
29:27
Corey, same final question for you on this segment. Advice to the teachers as they, you know, they reconcile their political power on the heels of this weekend and perhaps how to not not overplay that political power that they have and the wind behind their back, so to speak.
Corey
29:43
So 99% is an attention grabber. And to Carter's point, now what you need is when people come up and say, wow, I hear 99%. Why? Have a way that every teacher can explain why in a way that lands with parents. Make it about their kids. Make it about the curriculum. Make it about safety during COVID. Stay away from collective bargaining. Stay away from talking about yourself. Use the things Things that have been tested, ideally polled to show that 90% of parents, when they hear, for example, the curriculum says Charlemagne to eight-year-olds, they're like, what the fuck? That's crazy. Or when they hear that there's no money for fixing ventilation in classrooms through all of this COVID times and there's been no additional cleaning or anything like that, those are the kinds of things that people can grab onto. But you do want to stay away from collective bargaining, stay away from talking about yourself. So send something out Tuesday morning that basically is to all members saying 99% of representatives voted, none confidence in the minister. And here's why. And give them six bullets and just say, literally say, if anybody asks, this is basically why. This is what you can use. because, and we've talked about this in different contexts before, Stephen and I, and all three of us used to do this kind of work in campaign consulting when we worked for Hill & Knowlton.
Corey
31:00
There are messages that your diehards will carry that will just be speaking to other diehards. You need to arm your diehards with messages that speak to the center. And that's what the ATA should be prepping the teachers to do at this point.
Zain
31:13
Hold that campaign consulting thought as some foreshadowing. But before I move on to the next segment, Corey, you opened the bracket on why 100 would be worse. I wanted to give you the opportunity rather than me, you know, figuring it out in my mind to explain to folks why 100 would be worse to both of you, if you want to add to that point thereafter, Carter.
Corey
31:31
It's because 100 just looks too universal to be real. And 99% even is a bit of a stretch. But 99%, you're like, holy crap, you know, teachers are really pissed off. 100%, it just looks like it's either a performative or a heavily whipped vote or something to that effect. Yeah, it's
Carter
31:46
it's manufactured by the association. They've phrased it in such a fashion, they've already preset everything, it's going to be 100% for sure.
Carter
31:54
And it doesn't look like it's real.
Corey
31:56
Yeah, it's not good to do better than Stalin.
Corey
32:01
think we've got our episode title.
Zain
32:03
Let's move it on to our next segment. Our next segment, Come From Away. Guys, I want to talk about political consultants. Corey, you may not have known it, but you've properly foreshadowed our next segment. with your mention of campaign consulting. So let's look at the specific of a story here in Canada. And then I want to talk about political consulting as a craft, as a craft that exists around the world and the value of that craft domestically here in Canada. So the federal conservatives have tapped consultants who helped land a majority government for UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson to help Erin O'Toole's political strategy. This is information learned by the the Toronto Star. In fact, when they followed up with these two consulting firms, Stack Data Strategy, which is providing, quote unquote, advanced analytics, we can unpack that a bit more if we need to, not necessarily wanting to tinge it with some other firms that have come into this country providing advanced analytics, but there we are. Alongside another firm that is helping in digital strategy, both firms have helped, as I mentioned earlier, UK Prime Minister Mr. Boris Johnson, win his election. This other firm called Tofam Guerin, I believe, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, is a digital consultancy with offices in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, and is on the ground here, so to speak, to help Aaron O'Toole and the Conservative Party help boost the social media presence. Okay, I want to start here. Carter, let's talk about the specific story, and then let's get into the general. What are you shaking your head about? No,
Carter
33:39
No, you got to go to Corey. Corey, jump in. He's self
Zain
33:44
Chomping at the bit. Yeah, yeah, the smile, the lack of discipline while I tried to read this poorly. Go ahead, Corey, jump in. What do you want to say?
Corey
33:54
I just want to say that this is fine. This is smart. It's a bit like when we talked about staffing at the provincial level and how you want a combination of the subject matter expertise, the really good people, the professionals, the ronin who roam around and come to your province
Corey
34:06
province for your campaign or for your government and a combination of local people who understand the nuances of the geography. Why
Corey
34:13
Why wouldn't you, when you're playing on the national stage, look at the global talent that's available to you and try to build the best campaign team possible? I think that it's one of the least appealing things about Canadian identity that we get so parochial about these and we start feeling so defensive, of like, whoa, how dare you get somebody from the UK or New Zealand or Australia? By the way, New Zealand and Australia are smaller than Canada. So calm down, Canada, we can still feel pretty good about ourselves in the morning. And it's just, it's, it's okay. Like, I think one of the cool things about this country is how connected we are to all of these other countries out there. So this is a tempest in a teapot for me. Makes sense. Why the hell not?
Carter
34:55
Oh, my God. Great,
Carter
34:55
Great, great. I'm so upset that I went to Corey first.
Zain
34:59
I'm so angry that I... This is a podcast where the function, the core function is to elongate, to elongate, to fill time. Thank you for your service. Stephen Carter, was Corey shadowboxing or is he actual boxing? We'll find out in a second with your response. Go ahead.
Carter
35:17
First of all, you don't go to a country that is using the worst type of divisive politics as your example and say, you know what, that's the group I want to go to. I want to make sure that we're bringing back Boris Johnson's guys. Boris Johnson's guise and the divisiveness that has been sowed there and the and the long term consequences, you know, of Scotland wanting to leave and the Irish issues that are flaring up under the wonderful leadership of Boris Johnson, all because not because Boris Johnson's a horrible person, although he is. It's all because of the divisive types of politics that have been used there, including the selling of Brexit as though it was some sort of of opportunity because you could appeal to xenophobic voters. And that's what these people have been doing is appealing to xenophobic voters. And I'm going to tell you something, Corey, we have our own xenophobic voters here in Canada, and they will be appealed to by now this campaign coming from across the pond. I think it's terrible. I think that if you're going to do this type of work, at least do it with the local understanding of and the local history of the issues that are facing our country, because you don't want to unintentionally flare up a Quebec separation issue. You don't want to unintentionally flare up an Alberta separation issue. We've got enough of that going on all by ourselves without bringing in those, quote, unquote, divisive experts who are using data analytics and targeted messaging.
Carter
36:45
at the risk of sounding modestly arrogant, that's what Canadian consultants do, too. We also can do data analytics. We can also do the work that's being hired. We can also divide people.
Carter
36:54
I can divide so fucking well. Well, no, you know, but the division that I'm going to do, it's not going to separate the country, for God's sake. Because I know what the fuck I'm doing in the local context.
Zain
37:07
Oh, God. Stephen Carter's conflict of interest clause. No, too much?
Zain
37:13
Corey, Corey, I want you to respond to that particular—I think there is something there to what Carter said, though. No,
Carter
37:20
there's not. Is there not? Oh, my God. Is there not around— No, there's not. I
Corey
37:24
I mean, here's the thing. We're talking about, you know, there's the difference between building a hammer and swinging a hammer here. And, yes, it's as though Carter ignored the entire thing where I said it had to be married with experts in the geography. And this is obviously a team that's got a good sense of analytics. One of the things I saw in some of the reporting here was this kind of shock by people, like, oh, my goodness. What if they think that working class voters in Nova Scotia are the same as working class voters in B.C.? Yeah, you're telling me that a professional analytics firm, when they're looking at the variables available to them, are not going to try to partition based on geography, like one of the most obvious indicators there is? Like, listen, they're going to get this. They can figure this out. But the idea is they're using these tools to cut this data in interesting ways and say what is actually meaningful in determining how votes are. That's what an analytics company does there. When you talk about social media, this
Corey
38:17
this is – again, there are social media companies everywhere, and I don't think that inherently companies from away are evil any more than I think companies from here are good. I think that's kind of silly, and I don't know why you think that if Aaron O'Toole was going to be hiring locally, he would be hiring somebody who had more scruples, who would be less likely to divide, who would be doing things more righteously. What, because we're Canadians and we're just all so fucking nice? Is that what you think? No,
Carter
38:44
No, because I actually can see the track record of these guys and the yahoos and what they did in Great Britain. You can actually see the history of how they divided their country. And they're now dealing with a fallout of campaigns and government structures that are just bad. So you're bringing in people who've done really bad work. Oh, you won. If the only metric is you won, I don't think that's a good enough metric. They've won
Corey
39:07
won and they've basically killed the Labour Party at this point. They look really bad. No,
Carter
39:10
No, the Labour Party has killed itself. Well,
Carter
39:13
let us not step into this and make the Labour Party emblematic of the left. So
Corey
39:18
So reel back a bit here, Stephen. And this is almost the point that I think Aaron O'Toole is driving at here, which is there's been a fundamental realignment in the United Kingdom that we've also seen in the United States with Trump voters, the people in the Rust Belt who went to it. And he's saying, hey, I'd like to see if there's a Canadian version of that. Again, you're going to have to tie it with local experts, experts in the geography there. But let's just say, let's just say everything you said was right and not total bullshit. Let's just give you the benefit
Carter
39:43
benefit of the doubt. obviously correct don't
Corey
39:47
don't you think it's better to know that this is a uk firm that does things in this way than to have an anonymous canadian firm that you've never heard of who is doing the exact same thing like why is it why i don't
Zain
39:58
say you do you mean the general public sorry just yeah
Corey
40:00
yeah oh well or the media or anybody else who normally would hold these people to account let's not let's not kid ourselves we've also had canadian firms who have been really shitty and really dodgy and they've taken
Corey
40:12
taken that across the world too anybody familiar with cambridge analytica and some of the experts who were involved
Carter
40:17
involved there we disavowed them as canadians oh
Corey
40:21
just think this righteousness this holier than thou this notion that canadians would be doing it better is just absurd it's just dumb why do we why don't we just swear off google too why don't we find the canadian alta vista wherever the fuck that is like let's stop being being so goddamn provincial about these things. I'm still using WordPerfect,
Carter
40:40
friend, from Ottawa. I've got WordPerfect loaded on my computer right now. I
Corey
40:46
I don't even doubt that. I
Zain
40:48
even doubt that. It
Carter
40:49
It was a far superior program.
Zain
40:51
Add yourself to the altavista.ca waiting list. We can one day snag that domain. I
Zain
40:57
I mean, listen, this is not something that is just exclusive to conservatives. I don't want to be unfair to Aaron O'Toole. The story has come
Carter
41:03
come up about O'Toole. No, we can be unfair to O'Toole. I
Zain
41:05
I know. This is a strategy discussion that I want to have. And I like your, okay, thank you for tuning in, Carter.
Zain
41:14
Where is the place then, Corey? You've talked about balancing them off. And maybe before I go there, you know, one of the reasons why I brought this onto today's agenda was when we've heard of external consultants come into, let me be clear, the conservative party in the past. I look back at that 2015 example of the – is it Linton Crosby, right? The dead cat on the table guy who was responsible for that strategy, which its practical ramification, if I'm not mistaken, was doubling down on the niqab ban and was the barbaric cultural practices hotline, which I know may have just been a convenient, oh, that was Linton's idea, right? Right. Easy thing to say for folks. So I'm not necessarily sure if that was attributable to him, but it kind of brought that flavor of divisiveness that has kind of left a sour taste in my mouth. Am I wrong to be skeptical of foreign sort of, especially on the conservative side, foreign strategy and consulting firms to kind of jump in? Tell me. me yeah absolutely
Corey
42:13
absolutely you are and no
Carter
42:15
no you're not you're exactly right there are so
Corey
42:17
so many companies from the united states in particular that have done business for the various political parties here in canada i mean the uh the liberals system liberalist is is just a voter activation network yeah um
Corey
42:30
um the number of uh the number of consultants that have been on the obama campaign that have consulted with both the ndp and the liberals is fairly significant and biden's
Zain
42:41
biden's uh campaign The campaign manager who was helping
Corey
42:45
Yeah, and the conservatives and the Republicans have all sorts of back and forth as well. We ourselves, we three, have gone down and gone to campaign schools in the United States. We have seen American consultants up here. We are friends with consultants here who have done work in the United States. I just think that this notion that – I
Corey
43:05
I think it's the idea that just because – the
Corey
43:09
the problem was not they were from somewhere else, Zane. i guess is what i would say if you're a shithead you're a shithead anywhere and if you hire shitheads you're going to hire shitheads whether you've got to source them locally or if you've got the global market this is
Carter
43:20
is my point these guys are proven shitheads these people have this their work stands for itself this is what they've done and they are going to do it here let
Zain
43:31
let me articulate yeah let me articulate my point a little bit better cory if it helps and less less so about about them not being from here but more so them having no skin in the game or accountability so if they do stuff here being like oh let's just take on this tactic there is an escape hatch to be like those are our crazy uk consultants glad they're gone but you still got that really noxious hit out there in the public like
Corey
43:54
like that's what it kind of seemed
Zain
43:55
seemed like with the linton crosby stuff am i
Corey
43:57
am you think i'm overreacting you think that's what the narrative is coming out of the 2015 campaign that
Corey
44:03
that that crazy linton crosby that's not the narrative no
Corey
44:06
That's the kind of thing that people like you and I talk about. But
Zain
44:09
But it allows – I think there's ramifications to that, don't you, that it allows a campaigner who has domestic interest to bring on a consultant from outside who does not really necessarily care or have any accountability in the four walls of Canada to do something crazy and say, well, shit, if we get in trouble, it's on you, but you can pack your bags and go, and we're totally fine. We still kind of skate free from it. And
Corey
44:33
And whereas you think like a Canadian consultant would sit there and just be wrecked with the fact that they have to live in Canada still? Like, I just, I don't believe that. I don't think that's reality. And I got to say also, when
Corey
44:46
people approach a campaign, it's not as though they try to run back the exact same playbook time and time again. Again, I go back to this idea of like, what are the tactics that they're applying? What are the technologies
Corey
44:55
technologies that they're using?
Corey
44:56
And how are they determining what is the best to use in these various situations here? And the United Kingdom is not Canada. You're absolutely right. But if these consultants are worth anything, they're going to be able to at least start looking at those local differences. And they'll talk to people who have understanding of those local differences as well. I just don't understand why in 2021, you would limit yourself to the talent in a country of 35 million people, instead of a globe of over 7 billion.
Carter
45:23
Because we're very, very talented.
Carter
45:26
Especially me, you. I mean, that's just like this gung-ho-ness. It's, you
Zain
45:31
Okay, let's move on to the next part. Word perfect, eh?
Carter
45:34
Word perfect is excellent.
Zain
45:36
AltaVista.ca, it is my life hope that one of the three of us own it by 2050. Corey, where
Zain
45:43
where is the position for these consultants? Because, okay, you know, we talk about this concept of scaffolding them with folks that are domestic, that have the domestic interest. You can also position consultants in a way that's harmful to your campaign. So from your past experiences and how you've used consultants, I'd say within but even perhaps outside of the campaign structure, we've done this sort of work, perhaps not necessarily for political entities outside of the country, but we're familiar with these things. What advice or what would you want to elucidate to our listeners in terms of the placement of these consultants in a general org chart or pecking order as it relates to a campaign and maybe even including that concept of accountability that I introduced in some way? Yeah,
Corey
46:28
Yeah, well, it really depends on what you have and what you don't have. Because why do people hire consultants? They hire them for basically one of three reasons. They have an expertise you don't have, right?
Corey
46:38
right? So, hey, I need a senior strategist. I don't have any that I believe can do this. And so then you're going to make them the senior strategist, right? Or, hey, I need somebody who can do analytics work. We don't have anybody to do that. So you're going to make them the analytics people, right?
Corey
46:51
So that's one expertise you don't have. have. Two is a dispassionate outside view. They're not caught up in your bullshit. They don't just have the same assumptions that you have baked on from 20 years in the game, only seeing things myopically through your lens. And the third is to give you cover to do the thing you want to do anyways. Those are basically the three reasons people hire consultants, right? Capacity, outside view, cover. And I think in this case, it's not cover, right? I don't think they're just saying, saying, hey, once we hire somebody from the UK, that'll give us the excuse to do it. I think it's probably expertise they don't have. And so in that case, you would slot it in wherever you have the vacancies and expertise. You would slot them into your social media team. You would slot them into your analytics team. Now, again, it depends on whether it's more strategic or tactical what you're hiring them to do. That's where you'd put them into the org chart. But I think it would be a bit of a mistake to say you are always going to be subordinated to a Canadian, Just as I think it would be a mistake to say you're always in charge of a Canadian, that doesn't make any sense either. You've got to look at the thing specific to your needs, your haves and your wants. And so there's not an easy answer to your question there. If you're going to use consultants properly, you're going to look at the
Corey
48:02
the landscape and you're going to try to fill in a full army based on both your troops and the mercenaries that you can hire elsewhere. where carter
Zain
48:11
carter do you you know you're running a campaign you you've you know you've kicked and screamed about outside consultants the candidate has said steven stop whining we're gonna get these consultants there yeah which is probably uh which is probably not the first time that has been said to you no that's
Carter
48:25
how i had to hire cory the exact same so
Zain
48:29
carter they say listen we're getting these outside consultants uh you're kicking and screaming won't do anything what What are some Stephen Carter rules for consultants? So maybe I'll be more specific. What are some Stephen Carter rules for saying, you know, this is not something I can give to a hired gun versus this is something that has to be part of my internal team. So if you're going to be a hired gun, I'm keeping you away from X, Y, and Z. I'm not letting you do A, B, and C. I'm kind of curious if you've had any of those outlines or any of those even less written, but more figurative rules for consultants on a campaign. Well,
Carter
49:05
Well, I'm hiring a consultant to provide actual services. I mean, I think a lot of consultants, especially in the Canadian political context, often get hired just to stand around and talk, you know, when they go to all the meetings and they don't actually produce anything. thing um i think that you know one thing that i can be modestly positive about with this this appearance of these contracts is that they're both supposed to produce stuff they're they're not just coming in as a general consultant or general uh campaign
Carter
49:34
campaign advisor that's going to give advice there's there's actual functions um that are being given uh there's
Carter
49:43
there's functions that are being given to them and there's expectation expected deliverables um oftentimes in campaigns everybody can sit around and and offer their insight without actually having to do stuff and i think that this is a group both of them are groups that have to do things and that's how i would prefer to hire my consultants things that need to be delivered specifically you know because there's lots there's lots of people who will sit around on the airplane and tell the leader you know how to change things but there's very few people that will actually change them so that's
Carter
50:16
that's That's what I'm looking for when I'm hiring consultants, people who do things, not people who just talk about doing them.
Zain
50:23
I'm going to leave that segment there. Moving on to our final segment, overrated, underrated. Stephen Carter, I do this for you. I do this for you alone. There's no one else in the entire world or listening audience that I do this segment for. People
Carter
50:34
People have started to come to me and ask me if I think you think I'm underrated. And I know that's the exact opposite. You think I'm overrated. No, that's right. No, that's wrong. Yeah, I'm underrated. I'm underrated. Go ahead. Stephen
Zain
50:48
Stephen Carter, overrated, underrated. The Aaron O'Toole clapback to the controversy on his beer tweet this weekend. I could give some context. You know what? I'll leave that to you. Because you made the joke, you know, 15 minutes into it. Explain the tweet and the clapback to people. And then tell me if his clapback was overrated or underrated.
Carter
51:07
I mean, people get angry about all kinds of things. So he put in a tweet that he finished a run and his wife brought him a beer. um you know and
Carter
51:15
and people were all upset because of course you know he was putting his wife in a subservient uh position um and so today he tweeted that he brought his wife a glass of rosé and i think that that was the real sin uh the real sin was not choosing a white or a red but instead going with a rosé uh that was the part that was really upsetting for me i mean people
Carter
51:37
people in politics if if someone it doesn't really matter what the other guy says if we're going to hate on it uh so i thought that the clap back was completely um over
Carter
51:47
over the top i mean on the other hand i probably wouldn't have tweeted that because i'm pretty politically correct and very rarely on the risk at risk of getting canceled uh but aaron o'toole obviously can take more risks than i can carter
Zain
52:00
carter are you equating over the top with overrated yes yes yeah
Zain
52:04
okay cory clap back aaron o'toole what do you think i
Corey
52:08
i don't i don't know if it was overrated or underrated i I think it was pretty clever. It was pretty funny. And I do think that their reaction to, hey, my wife got me a beer was a bit much. The, you know, it seems like it was an attempt at like, I'm just like you. I go for runs. I have beer. Right. And it just went a little bit awry. And I certainly don't think that the original tweet that set this all off was in any way an attempt
Corey
52:35
attempt or even just kind of like an ignorant. look at this guy living in the 50s example of uh you know of somebody who just has these really outdated gender norms that's not the sense that i got i just thought it was kind of clunky look at me i'm a normal dude twitter that we often see from politicians right and i do think that the the tweet back of him getting his wife a drink was pretty funny and so um you know uh he wins that round, but that round didn't matter very much.
Zain
53:08
Corey, I'm going to stick with you on this next one. Overrated, underrated, the 99% ATA vote?
Corey
53:14
Oh, I think that at this point, it's probably a little bit overrated. People are talking
Corey
53:19
very dramatically about what this could potentially mean. But we've seen what a 98% vote can do. And it was nothing to the position of the health minister. So I'm not sure why we would expect a 99% would change the education minister. And honestly, like if you sort of game this thing out and you think okay well if justin and justin trudeau if jason kenny uh were to uh to replace the education minister right now that would be chaos uh in terms of the curriculum or whatnot like there would have to it would have to be like okay we surrender on the curriculum we're going to go back it
Corey
53:52
would have to be tied to a major policy change too there'd be no point in getting rid of the minister and maintaining the same policies so um you know i don't think This is not going to change anything unless it is the straw that broke the camel's back. And all of a sudden, Jason Kenney says, I can't win this one. We've just got to retreat on curriculum.
Zain
54:12
Carter, overrated, underrated, the 99% ATA vote?
Carter
54:15
Underrated. It put everything back on the table again, something that was starting to fade. Issues don't stay on the top of mind for people. It brought it all back. And students head back to school on Tuesday. So putting it back on the table at a time when parents are going to be highly
Carter
54:32
highly engaged is, I think, a very good move.
Zain
54:36
Carter, I'm a man of second chances because I like to forgive. I like to provide opportunity. You know this. You've been
Zain
54:49
this week, between Thursday and now, Sunday evening when we record, the NDP have acclaimed Abby Lewis as their candidate. it uh in uh in bc um do you want to buy stock in abbey lewis on this sunday uh
Carter
55:03
uh it's still for 30 days yes
Zain
55:05
yes it's still for 30 days that is correct because you had purchased we're going to sell at day 32 do you want to buy some more sir uh
Carter
55:12
uh yeah i will buy more and uh i'm going to uh well i'm going to buy it short i can buy short right like that's what i can do like no short no anyways Anyways, he's going to fucking tank. It's going to be spectacular.
Zain
55:25
It's people with the Stephen Carter financial acumen that is currently the reason for the crypto wave that Corey will talk to us about on
Carter
55:31
on his old podcast. I sold my Dogecoin at a 75% loss. So thanks a lot, Corey.
Zain
55:40
problem. Corey, are you buying Avi Lewis stock? 30 days. Gave you the opportunity on Thursday. Are you taking it on Sunday?
Corey
55:47
No. A friend of mine online reminded me, or didn't remind me, told me, I didn't know. that Avi Lewis doesn't speak French, so I think his leadership ambitions are going to be fairly stunted.
Carter
55:59
seen greater things. No one expects him to become prime minister, Corey. Just the leader of the NDP.
Zain
56:04
Corey, final question for you here. I'm going to stick with you on this one. Overrated or underrated, Kenny, premier
Zain
56:12
premier of Alberta, Jason Kenny, has backed Quebec's drive to be a declared nation. Is that overrated or underrated in your mind?
Corey
56:19
I don't know what the fuck it is.
Zain
56:22
yeah carter do you want to with cory
Carter
56:23
cory i could not be more confused in the overall scheme of what is thinking what he's thinking oh
Zain
56:28
oh i now have to double click on this a bit more tell me tell me why you guys cory's i don't know what the fuck this is clearly leaves a lot to be desired go ahead cory and i'll jump in with you carter well
Corey
56:37
well this is um is this an attempt for him to keep the door open to go back to federal politics at some point because it sure doesn't seem like it would play here in alberta the idea that can quebec can unilaterally apply itself to be a nation is it A foreshadowing of Alberta
Corey
56:52
Alberta taking a similar action in some way, shape, or form, applying our own Section 45 changes to the Constitution. I don't know what this is, but it's unnerving. And it's unnerving not in the way of like, you know, is he going to zig or is he going to zag? It's up is down sort of sense.
Zain
57:13
I may not agree with Quebec on every point of policy, but they fight for their province using every legal tool at their disposal. rather than fighting Quebec over the exercise of its powers, I look to Quebec with a degree of admiration.
Carter
57:26
Yeah, I mean, in a normal sense, this might be, you know, if we went back, I don't know, 30 years now, this might be the new battle over the notwithstanding clause. But what I fear is that he's trying to set something up where he can declare some sort of constitutional change that enables him to get environmental regulations taken out of the the federal purview or something along those lines um you know this is to me he's playing something different than what's in the best interest of albertans he's playing a political game that um i don't think has a lot a lot of upside for anyone cory
Corey
58:05
yeah uh people are starting to swing around these clauses in ways they were never meant to be swung around and i'm very worried about what the unintended consequences of all of that could be if we just start throwing random shit into the Canadian constitution, not even really talking about the provincial constitutions at this point and what it could mean and what it could not mean and the confusion it may provide to people. I think this is not in the interest of the country. I was really hoping that some of the leaders in this country would stand up and say, well, I'm not so sure about this on the Quebec one. The idea that he would actually see this as something to admire Meyer is alarming.
Corey
58:43
And it was pointed out by Matt Combs on Twitter that Alberta now has a, if you believe the most recent Main Street poll, like the highest polling separatist party in the country here. I don't like that we're playing with this kind of fire.
Zain
59:02
lot more to talk about on that subject as we've just opened it up, but we'll leave that episode there. That's episode episode 936 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velji with me as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan, and we'll see you next time.