Episode 916: We sell cups now

Zain 0:02

This is a strategist episode 916. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, how's it going?

Carter 0:11

It is going very well. I've just got a note from Edwin at thebigstake.com selling more mugs than he can even keep up with. It's huge.

Corey 0:21

Why are we selling mugs? What is going on? How did this happen? And how

Corey 0:25

how much money are you making doing this? You

Carter 0:32

Here's what happened. The Strategist

Zain 0:33

Strategist Legal Defense Fund is next, and it's going to be very similar to

Carter 0:38

to what we've seen. We tried to make fun of Ryan Jesperson. And in so making fun of Ryan Jesperson, we inadvertently created a merchandising line. This

Carter 0:46

This is what happened. That's how it all unfolded.

Corey 0:49

So, Zane, I don't know if you've had any conversation with Carter, but I kind of feel like there's no back end coming to us on this. Oh, no, we're getting fuck all. No,

Carter 0:57

No, Edwin is keeping everything.

Zain 1:01

That's great. Didn't we literally get rid of the last guy who did merchandise for us because he kept everything? And now you've made that our business model?

Carter 1:11

I don't want us to get turned around by the money and the fame. The fame's plenty, right? Like, the fame is corrupting enough.

Zain 1:18

Oh, my God. uh cory congratulations uh for being the first and only to insert the rescue 911 reference on the show very timely uh 20 bucks

Zain 1:31

yeah 20 bucks i don't know i don't know who's gonna owe you 20 sure let's just do let's just give it 20 bucks come out of that merchandise carter i'm

Zain 1:38

i'm just saying i'm just saying i feel like the

Carter 1:42

the entire problem is that that might have been the deal is that we get 20 bucks so that's

Carter 1:48

that's i'll make that the deal we'll get 20 bucks straight to you it's

Zain 1:51

it's good uh can i just say that our strategist listener bruce has sent a tweet to us about the best rescue 911 episode which involved 12 minutes at a mallard uh cory you've set this to us it is incredible uh did you watch it yourself or did you did you give up after minute three i gave

Corey 2:08

gave up after a bit but it's a duck who seems to have gotten his neck stuck not in one but like two two turns of, like, a six-pack plastic ring thing. So, this

Corey 2:19

this was gripping television in 1988. Yeah,

Zain 2:22

Yeah, yeah. It's all we had to watch. It's true. Had to come down to Calgary to make that happen. Carter, any comments on her Jesperson appearance before I move it on? You gave a riveting preacher-like close to the festivities, as was expected. But any other commentary? Maybe a pseudo-commentary on your ending?

Carter 2:44

Well, here's what happened. I mean, we finished strong as we always do. Right. Keep people to the very end of the of the podcast. That is our job. That's what we do here. We did it for Ryan and we lifted him up for the first time for a while. He was in the top five of Canadian podcasts on a Monday morning. usually he falls like a stone but we lifted him up and uh you

Carter 3:06

know i i think that i think he's grateful i mean he's been sending me notes all weekend uh mostly with like fuck off stop trying to contact me type of stuff but i

Carter 3:16

i think we know what he

Carter 3:17

he's pretty happy he's that's fair cory

Zain 3:20

cory any any comments from you uh before before you move it on no

Corey 3:23

no this is a lot lot of free air time for jesperson he got the promo and he got the postmo from us here i hope that he's giving us the same kind of stroke on his show uh carter maybe make some texts see what oh yeah yeah carter i

Zain 3:35

i will uh yeah get on next time and try to sell more merch man that's the only way i

Zain 3:40

this thing for our buddy edwin okay let's move it on to our first segment our first segment flax on vax guys i want to talk about the vaccine i want to talk about vaccine communications what's going on get it get at the flag i have to explain this to you every time you You look at me so quizzically.

Zain 3:56

No, it's really good. All right.

Corey 3:57

I'll see you all later.

Carter 3:59

You're going to leave, Corey?

Carter 4:02

I got some free air time. Let's do this.

Zain 4:04

Corey, it's either this or we talk more about our appearance on Jesper said. It's really your choice.

Carter 4:11

we go back? Is there any way we can bring back the We Charity? Because that was good times, too. We

Corey 4:18

what, like six weeks

Carter 4:19

in a row of

Corey 4:20

of the We Charity? You get these issues stuck in your teeth, Zane, and there's no toothpick that can pull them out.

Zain 4:27

I'm literally stuck. Let's fucking do it. Let's talk vaccines. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it.

Corey 4:30

Wait, wait, wait. Okay, hold on. Episode 18 of the vaccine conversation.

Corey 4:35

Do you want me to just summarize my opinions now? No.

Corey 4:37

we're all going to have

Carter 4:38

have to wait a few months to see how

Carter 4:40

this actually... Listen to the questions and behave

Zain 4:42

behave yourself. All right.

Carter 4:42

No, no, no. Go ahead. Be a grown man, for God's sake. All

Zain 4:46

All right. Why? It's okay. So many questions. But the first one I ask is, why is your impersonation of yourself a dumbed-down version of yourself? He sounds dumber.

Zain 4:57

dumb. He does. It's like he's impersonating someone else.

Carter 5:02

impersonating himself. I own myself.

Corey 5:06

you do that? You have children. I

Corey 5:09

I do. You have a spouse. You understand. I

Corey 5:12

You start to internalize the voice that they mock you with, and it becomes your own voice for yourself.

Carter 5:17

It is entirely true. especially it's really hurtful when it comes from the toddlers okay

Carter 5:22

gonna toddler sticks with you leave

Zain 5:23

leave that segment there and start with the new segment therapy for cory uh carter

Zain 5:30

do you think's going on this guy said he seems pretty beaten down at this point listen

Carter 5:34

listen there's a certain number of children that you can never recover from and i think cory's past that now i

Corey 5:40

can't argue carter all right do you want to talk vaccines let's talk See what I've done there? I've talked about so many

Zain 5:46

many other things that now you want to talk about vaccines. I like this. Carter, I'm going to start with you for obvious reasons. Let Corey rev up his enthusiasm as he's been gradually doing over the past couple of seconds here. here. We are now potentially going to be entering a third wave with a new variant. We've seen provinces that are now thinking about opening up. We're now seeing this crossroads of vaccines that are later than we expected, a new variant entering our shores that perhaps has a greater likelihood to spread. What do you kind of think the federal government response here should be? Is this kind of a moment that they find themselves in that is unprecedented? And And are they thinking of a new game plan or are they now trying to figure out how they kind of impose their will upon the provinces? Like, what are you doing right now if you're Justin Trudeau looking at this perfect storm and the slow car crash coming very, very soon

Carter 6:41

the federal government is stuck in the same place that they've been in from the very beginning because they they decided early in the pandemic that

Carter 6:48

that they were going to allow the provinces uh to elect to choose their own strategies for dealing with uh covet 19 and as it as it uh spread across the country so this is exactly like you described it as the third wave um this is the you know we've we've seen this tape before we know exactly how it plays out And Justin Trudeau is not going to change the way he responds. Instead, he's supposed he's he's going to be riding in on the vaccination

Carter 7:14

vaccination stallion and trying to save the day.

Carter 7:18

Unfortunately, his partners at the provincial government don't seem to have the same understanding of how important it is to nip this one in the bud. This is a you know, these new variants are different. This is a virus that is mutating and is becoming more effective at spreading and more effective at keeping itself alive, which is what its job is as it as it morphs and and evolves through infecting the human species. So it's becoming better at what it does.

Carter 7:50

Most flu vaccines actually, you know, will do the same type of thing. If you look, one of the things that I learned as we went through this pandemic is what happened in 1919, right? It turns out that the strains of the flu that we're getting are most likely strains of that 1919-1918 flu, but it has become less deadly. Because in order to protect itself and ensure that it could spread, it became less deadly, so it didn't kill its hosts. Very clever of it. This one is becoming more easily spread. And that might just be a temporary thing. But right now, what we're looking at is something

Carter 8:26

something that is going to be worse for humanity. Now, other jurisdictions like New Zealand, Australia, other

Carter 8:34

other places have shut down. They have had a few small number of cases, and they are shutting down in order to try and manage it. Of

Carter 8:42

Of course, in Canada, with our

Carter 8:44

our different provincial governments, we have different provincial responses. So I'm watching the big the big provinces, and I'm expecting that they will simply rerun the playbook that they ran before, which is act late, do too little and allow far too many people to get infected by this, these new strains. And and everybody's just going to pray that vaccination comes fast enough and is effective enough on these new new variants. Corey,

Zain 9:08

Corey, I want to talk to you about the provinces in a bit, but the argument kind of goes like this. We're printing money anyways. We're seeing this slow car crash coming towards us with a delayed vaccination timeline, though that milestones still may be met alongside this new variant. Should the government just continue, federal government, continue printing money and step up in a much bigger way to keep our businesses closed for longer as we kind of try to, to Carter's point, nip this in the butt, try to get to our finish line?

Corey 9:38

Well, maybe, maybe not. There is going to be a day after COVID. Our deficits are the largest of the G7 right now. And the idea of piling even more money on that doesn't exactly make me feel great about about paying for that bill when it's all said and done. You talk about us printing money. That's that's not so far from the truth. But ultimately, it is not the truth. We are borrowing money and that money does need to be paid back. And when we're paying back money, you

Corey 10:06

want to make sure you've gotten something that's worth what you're going to end up having to pay back for it. And yes, we can have a conversation about the value of a human life. And the reality is governments always have to make calculations where they say, OK, infinite dollars per life is actually too high. We were going to find something different there. What I am not so convinced of is that more activity by the federal government would fundamentally change the conversation that Stephen just described there. The provinces are like Zane Velji. They keep going back to the same topic, doing things the exact same way. It's just like the vaccine thing on the strategists. It will not go away. They arc between having far too

Corey 10:45

too light of a touch and then having to bring the hammer down and then pulling the hammer off before they've actually concluded the problem rinse and repeat. And I do expect that that's going to continue throughout the spring as well here. So, you know, will federal

Corey 10:58

federal money change that? I doubt it, because it's not just about the economy. It's not just about keeping these businesses afloat. It's about something that's a little more kind

Corey 11:07

kind of like a human, I guess, and more societal. It's the fact that we've now been cooped up at home for so very long. And it's not just about wanting to get out of the house to keep restaurants afloat. It's about wanting to get out of the house. And unfortunately, we don't seem to have leaders who are willing to do what other leaders have done in other parts of the world to get us right out of this thing. And as I've said in the past, I'm not even sure we could because we are not an island like New Zealand or Australia. We share a border, quite a porous one with the United States of America. And as long as that's the case, I just don't think that COVID zero is a realistic plan until we can all get vaccinated. uh

Zain 11:45

uh carter mark or k craig kilberger which one is your is your favorite uh just going back to the uh louis charity just so i can get

Carter 11:54

get always a craig guy i mean you

Zain 11:56

craig guy you look like a craig uh cory are you a marker craig guy uh

Corey 12:01

uh you know i think i'm a craig

Zain 12:02

craig guy yeah yeah i feel like we're all craig people here just it's

Zain 12:05

it's the it's the craig people uh carter you know uh thank you cory for you

Corey 12:10

you know i had a lot of time to think about whether i was a marker craig guy over the many episodes you talked about the Wii scandal.

Zain 12:18

Such a dick. You feel like your time is more valuable than ours. And it probably is because you've got 19 children running around that you probably should be taking care of. It's very Dickensian, yes. No,

Carter 12:29

No, I'm the oldest. My time is the most valuable. This is true.

Zain 12:34

same question for you, and perhaps in a different light.

Zain 12:38

Printing money, borrowing money, could it actually help? And the reason I ask here is there is a really interesting brand question for Team Trudeau. We've talked about Team Trudeau brand quite often. Initial praise for handling of the pandemic in the later sort of innings here, not getting so much praise for the vaccination rollout. A third wave and a spike in territory we haven't found ourselves in could be disastrous to the Trudeau brand. That alongside the fact that Canadians historically, in most recent polling, care about debt and deficit the least they ever have at this moment. So I want to qualify that to Corey's point at this existing moment from what we've seen from some polling. With that being said, do you feel like there is a value in trying to take on a disproportionate, larger, bigger role than they have, as we've seen the second wave kind of blow out of proportion?

Carter 13:30

think that the government is going to be judged on the immediate impacts that they're facing.

Carter 13:35

So when vaccination is being done, they are being judged on vaccination. And when we are done being vaccinated, they will immediately be judged by the Canadian public on the economic recovery. And the economic recovery means that you must have viable businesses. We were talking with my daughter and her boyfriend today about, you know, businesses and how many businesses are going to be in a position where they can actually survive this particular pandemic. Well, because the economy doesn't rebound if small and medium enterprise doesn't rebound first. That is the driver of the economy. And that

Carter 14:15

be rescued in no small part by little government bailouts. The stuff that Jason Kenney did, I mean, Jason Kenney might get one word of praise from me. The small amounts of money that went to small businesses, I think it was up to $20,000 per small enterprise. That was life-saving for a lot of small enterprises. That kept the lights on. It kept the employers being able to have an income, and it kept their rent paid. So I think that that's what they're going to be evaluated on. No one ever cares about debt and deficits. Even people who pretend to care about debt and deficits, if you give them even the most simple stacked question where they have to put one thing above the other, debt and deficit very quickly drops to the very bottom of the pile. It's just not something that people judge themselves on or actually make anything vaguely resembling informed decisions outside of the very few people who are real true fiscal conservatives.

Zain 15:13

Yeah. Craig Kuhlberger fan, Corey Hogan, what do you think?

Corey 15:17

the canadian government is spending money like crazy because our vaccine rollout was worse than everybody else's that is a problem you can then quantify in dollars our slow rollout which will also then say hey if we had just spent what other nations did to get more preferential contracts that that would have been worth it like you're you literally are creating a target uh that is that is so concrete for somebody to start throwing rocks at and so i i think that's the other thing to consider here. The political machinations that would go into that. Sure.

Corey 15:46

The being the only just imagine we are the only G7 country that all of a sudden decides we need to do another surge of spending like this. My God, I mean, you're writing the death warrant for the Trudeau government at that point. Because if that does occur, and if we do end up in, I still don't think a spring election is off the table. I know Carter feels differently. But if we end up in a situation where where we are then vaccinated, let's just assume that everything we've heard, it remains the case that we're going to get our quarterly numbers and then some over the next couple of quarters. Then people are going to say, what the hell did you spend all of that money on? Because the moment of anxiety that we feel right now about being so far behind in the vaccine race will be gone. And the bill will not.

Zain 16:28

Carter, let me ask you this. Finally, let's before I leave the feds on this particular matter around strategy question, you're advising the PMO, they add They pick up the phone and say, Carter, we've got the slow car crash coming, which is this third wave. We've got, you know, physician groups and doctors and frontline workers telling us to lock down, add more supports to the mix. We've got the delay in vaccinations, though we think we're going to hit our quarterly milestones. And we've also got the variants coming to our shore. We want you for your political brain, Stephen, which is rare and no one calls you for that. But we want you for that. Hurtful.

Zain 17:03

What should we do? Should we stick to our game plan? Should we introduce new targeted spending? Should we impress our will more on the province? We've got 30 seconds on this phone call left with you. What do you think we should do?

Carter 17:19

Well, no one's going to be judging the Trudeau government on things that the provincial governments are responsible for. So don't waste your capital trying to convince Doug Ford, John Horgan, or Jason Kenney to behave in the way that you expect them or want them to behave. So are you suggesting,

Zain 17:34

suggesting, just to highlight that fact, that this is provincial responsibility? Would you keep doing that over and over?

Carter 17:40

Instead, I would just focus on vaccination. I'd focus on the one question that people are going to be able to ask and answer that I actually have control over. No sense in having them ask questions or focus on things that I don't have control over. I have if I'm Justin Trudeau, I have control over perhaps the people who are entering the country through now one of those four airports that that he's designated for travelers to come in internationally. And I'm also going to be judged probably simply on the on the rollout of the vaccination. So get focused on that. I mean, everything seems to be pointing to his projections from last week are going to be exceeded. it um his you know the work that is being done for vaccinations uh it still hasn't happened yet um but right now projections look look positive i mean next week when you ask to talk about vaccinations uh we may be uh talking about more failed numbers but uh uh

Carter 18:36

uh right now it looks like they're going to be able to exceed yeah

Zain 18:39

yeah carter next week we're actually doing our deep dive on we the retrospective um so um just so you know we're going to combine um we're going to combine mind the two if we had a vaccine prior to the pending what would have happened i mean such a such an interesting

Carter 18:52

conversation very corey uh

Zain 18:54

uh they they liked what steven said but they wanted to get a gut check so they call you what do you think what are you telling them about their their strategy right now with the scenario i've set out there with this impending third wave oh

Corey 19:06

oh i agree i think the focus needs to be on vaccines the the borders are also of course an area of federal responsibility but ultimately it is one of these stick to your knitting uh ensure that these these incentive programs are sustained i wouldn't amp them up necessarily at this we will be compared to the united states i think that's the fundamental point that you need to drill into the head of the trudeau government we have this this country right next door that if all of a sudden everybody around there is vaccinated and we're still three months out from that six months out from that he's you know he's going to have a problem as the prime minister and as canadians we're going to be be feeling pretty salty about that. So you've got to do whatever you can, pull whatever levers you have available to make sure that our total vaccination time happens rather concurrently with the United States. These early months, this is a problem, but ultimately it's a surmountable problem. Make sure your supply chains are in line, provide any assistance you can to the provinces so that when these vaccines start flowing, they are getting into arms because that is the next thing. It's one thing to get the vaccines. But several months ago, we

Corey 20:09

we were talking about the the distribution chains, right? And how we were going to manage those. And yeah, now we're going to have AstraZeneca coming in, in all likelihood, relatively shortly, I think within a month. And that one doesn't require the same ultra cold storage. But that means also, you've got a different logistics chain all of a sudden. So make sure that all of those things are managed and managed well, and that the minute these vaccines start flowing in volume, they're getting into arms in volume, so that we can conclude this exercise roughly the same time the United States of America does.

Zain 20:36

Yeah. And you know, I want to kind of move it on to a provincial side of things, maybe with a more specific question. Carter, I want to start with you on this. It's about the provincial strategy to purchase vaccines. And I point specifically to what happened in Manitoba where Brian Pallister is trying to, there's some political sort of back and forth around if he's able to, but he's trying to ink

Zain 20:57

ink his own deal for the people of Manitoba on vaccines.

Zain 21:01

I'm curious to ask you about this. Is this a good strategy for if you're a premier right now, trying to show Show strength, trying to know, you know, signal what is in your domain versus what isn't. Trying to buy a vaccine candidate, if you are Brian Pallister, if you are perhaps another premier. Is this good strategy from a provincial level or does it depend on who you are and which premier you are and what your aims and ambitions are? Or is there a blanket approach that you would take knowing that, you know, Pallister has led on this if you were another premier in this country? Oh,

Carter 21:35

Oh, and Jason Kenney floated it. Doug Ford floated it. This is a strategy

Carter 21:38

strategy that kind of goes across the provincial boundaries. And I mean,

Carter 21:43

mean, on its face, it kind of requires an amount

Carter 21:47

amount of stupidity from the electorate that is just pretty

Carter 21:50

pretty significant. I'm not sure that it

Carter 21:53

it makes any sense at all for

Carter 21:54

for provinces to be suggesting

Carter 21:56

suggesting that they in some fashion can buy vaccine that

Carter 22:00

that isn't being delivered and has already been purchased by the government of Canada. I

Carter 22:04

I mean, just to

Zain 22:05

to clarify, it is a vaccine candidate from an Alberta-based Providence Therapeutics. They bought two million doses.

Carter 22:11

doses. This is now stuff that doesn't exist yet. This is true. This is why I'm

Zain 22:14

I'm talking about the politics of it. This is why the optics and the cause

Carter 22:17

cause issue. Optically, you're fighting for your people, right? You're fighting for your people. I'm going to stand up there and I'm going to make sure that everything happens for my people. It is, however, dumb as fuck because all you're doing is you're bringing up something that you're going to fail at. Right,

Carter 22:33

right. It's not going to manifest, at

Zain 22:34

at least not timely, yeah. Yeah,

Carter 22:36

Yeah, you're going to fail because there are no vaccines for you to buy. You know, Brian, like, maybe you can get some in Costa Rica, but right now this is not something you're going to be able to get and bring home to the good people of Manitoba. So my advice, put the pressure on the federal government. You know, we are ready and able. And then, here's a shocker, be able.

Carter 23:00

know, there is a tremendous amount of talk about how hard it's going to be for Canada to vaccinate everybody by September. Well, prove us wrong. Prove us wrong. Show us how the good people of Canada can see 2 million vaccinations in a single week. Show us how it can be done, because it has to be done if we're all going to be vaccinated by September. So, I, again, as the old person, I'm really a big fan of actually getting shit done, instead of just standing in front of a microphone and making an ass out of yourself. I want

Zain 23:31

want to go to you on this in a second. But Carter, just to put a finer point on it. Do you feel like this strategy for Pallister is clearly trying to, you know, stand up for his people show his ambition show that he can, you know, swim at a color, color, you know, maybe outside of lines, if that were a good thing to extend a really shitty metaphor. you know, could this backfire by perhaps releasing and relieving the Trudeau government of their procurement responsibility? Is that what I'm hearing you say? Or am I putting words in your mouth? No,

Carter 23:59

no, it doesn't. It doesn't relieve the Trudeau government from any of their responsibility. Trudeau's government is

Zain 24:04

is still from a political sense. No,

Carter 24:07

No, what it does, though, is it puts you in a position where you're saying you're going to do something. Brian, I, Brian Pallister, I'm going to buy vaccines for the people of Manitoba.

Carter 24:16

yeah, I didn't. How did did that work out right like don't promise me something that you can't attain just because it's good politics and this is one of the questions that i have for politicians

Carter 24:25

politicians in general why are you out there promising me something that you know you can't deliver that is one of the frustrations of politics in my mind when someone stands up and says this is what we should be doing this is what i will do if i'm elected but then they're unable to and it's even more hypocritical when you're actually elected to government to stand up there and

Carter 24:44

and make demands or to make promises that you

Carter 24:47

you simply know you can't keep. It

Carter 24:49

It undermines politics for you as an individual, and

Carter 24:52

and it also undermines politics in general. And that's something that we have to stop. People don't trust politicians at all. And it would be nice to rebuild a little bit of trust just by thinking, you know what, I'm going to do something that isn't focused on winning the next news cycle.

Zain 25:08

Corey, if this vaccine jumps through all the hoops and gets all its approvals, It would deliver its first 200,000 doses by the end of the year at the earliest, to Carter's point about delivery perhaps not being viable. But from a political strategy, do you agree with Stephen's both analysis and then soapbox close? Or do you have a perhaps different take from the standpoint of a premier?

Corey 25:35

Look, anything to get through the day, right? You get to point at somebody else. You get to act like the hero. but this is a great example that action does not guarantee results. And the idea that you would purchase a vaccine that I believe the federal government has also already purchased. Should it, should it hit? Maybe not. It doesn't matter. And, and that, that this would pay dividends. The fact is these timelines are pretty far out and the entire thing could have been framed perhaps a little bit differently. And maybe Manitoba wanted to invest their money a little bit differently. Say this is about long-term security of, of supply for things like this, But the suggestion that you are somehow breaking the logjam by doing this when there's not Health Canada approvals, when this thing is not going to flow to you first anyhow, it's kind of silly. And it does just sort of reek of partisan politics, like, oh, I'm going to do the thing that Justin Trudeau couldn't, going to roll up my sleeves. Now what's next? Now they're going to blame the government for not acting fast enough to approve the Manitoba vaccine. I know it's a vaccine made here in Calgary, but a vaccine purchased by the province of Manitoba. It's not helpful.

Corey 26:40

helpful. It's not remotely helpful. And ultimately, I think this is the kind of thing that is

Corey 26:48

is going to land with very few people. It's a transparently foolish thing for the Manitoba government to do. Carter,

Zain 26:55

Carter, do you think any other government, provincial, will adopt this similar strategy? Do you feel like it's going to be some additional grandstanding to be seen by premiers across the country?

Carter 27:06

given their behavior in the past um you know if we accept the idea that uh

Carter 27:11

a predictor of behavior in the future is behavior in their past then yeah they're going to be grandstanding all over canada they'll

Carter 27:17

they'll be doing everything they possibly can and then then if things start to work they're

Carter 27:21

they're going to be lining up at the front of the media to to take credit and say basically you know we rescued this program from justin trudeau that's their goal um it's partisan in politics it's it's level versus level politics it's been going on since the dawn of time it's going to continue to go on it always disappoints me but you

Carter 27:41

know i learned to live with my disappointment let's

Zain 27:45

let's let's move on to another element of our vaccine conversation because i know cory you love this this is actually oh yeah loading your boat this is this is making it happen for you um carter i want to talk about vaccine communications and frankly more specifically anti-vax communications. A story's come out that both in Canada and the United States, doctors and nurses are trying to build confidence online in COVID-19 vaccines through social media, mounting coordinated campaigns to combat anti-vaccination forces prevalent on the platforms. Their main strategy is to monitor hashtags and keywords used by individuals individuals on social media, and then from there, flood social media posts with supportive messages countering vaccine opponents. So we've talked about vaccine communications in the past. I'm going to have a special episode for us as we deep dive on it in terms of how to get more and more people to adopt it. But at this current junction, Stephen Carter, for you, are you A, surprised that we're in this state where doctors are now taking this into their own hands, And B, do you like their strategy of if someone speaks negatively, you kind of get your Instagram or Twitter hive or Facebook hive to come flood them with positive comments en masse? Do you feel like there's efficacy in that? I want to talk about the calm strategy a bit with both of you on this before we close it off on this segment.

Carter 29:08

Well, I think that the science of defeating this has been relatively clear. Experts don't do it. It's peer-to-peer that does it. uh so the idea of being flooded with positive comments if those comments are coming from peers i think that would be very effective if it's coming from um you know a hundred different white coats uh with just stethoscopes i mean you know no one's going to care that you know four out of five dentists recommend people still buy the other fucking brand so it doesn't you know like this is this is not something that people do um and it's not going to be uh it's not going to help. I mean, I have noted that as there has been vaccine scarcity, people are seemingly more willing to get it. That also might just be a bump because of, you know, the proximity to getting it and watching other people get it. No one's, you know, the negative outcomes seem to be minimal. At this stage, though, here's my thing. I care very little about vaccine hesitancy. I care almost about – as much about vaccine hesitancy

Carter 30:16

hesitancy as I do about the group of people who think the earth is flat. There is always going to be a group of people – Wait, wait, wait. Why? Why?

Zain 30:22

Why? Because this was – it was only a few months ago, I would say, that we had a deep dive on this particular subject that we thought it was the biggest thing to tackle in many ways to ensure that the vaccine-hesitant group tips over to the side of pro-vax and that they're not part of an anti-vax sort of wave. why why are you less i should have

Carter 30:41

have said that more clearly i care less about the anti-vax i should have said okay sorry i misspoke but um

Carter 30:48

um you know if the anti-vaxxers all die tomorrow i'm fine you

Carter 30:52

you know like yikes

Carter 30:54

too far no but here's the thing they're making an active choice i'm i'm very much you know that they should they know what the consequences are they know what the issues are and frankly most of them are protected by the umbrella anyways we see where i get get frustrated is watching children get measles, right? I get frustrated when children get rubella. I get frustrated when easily prevented childhood diseases are passed on. But this is really interesting with COVID. COVID isn't one of those things that, you know, right now, children can't even take the vaccine. This is for adults only. This is a very interesting, different structure structure of vaccination and i just i'm going to care a lot less about anti-vaxxers than i normally would just because of the nature of the disease itself and uh the

Carter 31:43

fact that i think we can reach that quote-unquote herd immunity uh very very quickly and i'm hoping that no one else loses their life but um people

Carter 31:52

people make strange choices all the time people run with the bulls i don't don't understand that either it's

Zain 31:58

cory same question to you the this is a group of doctors uh the campaign is called this is our shot uh they seem to not have diversified voices beyond doctors themselves or specialists themselves it seems to be an internally planned group of folks that of of medical professionals that are trying to combat misinformation online this is not the official strategy but i'm kind of curious as we put our comms and strategy hat on what do you think of this approach of doctors trying to flood social media whenever they get flagged of misinformation or keywords that reek of perhaps misinformation or anti-vax viewpoints?

Corey 32:39

don't know the specifics of how they intend to do this, but you have to be very

Corey 32:42

very careful. It could backfire very quickly. Stephen mentioned the idea that, hey, people in white coats jumping in and telling you that you're wrong on your on your handle that's um that's not necessarily going to be well received that's

Corey 32:56

that's very true and in fact you can often see people entrench when they get faced with behavior like that you know it becomes like oh look at this consensus from the medical community they're all just sort of going shoulder to shoulder on this one no cracks there that there's just wake up people you know it becomes almost

Carter 33:11

sheeple is what she yeah

Corey 33:12

yeah it it becomes reinforcing of of those uh of those anxieties they have um the other thing is that's that's not really how you break into social networks that's like santa claus coming in your chimney it would just be alarming right in in real life breaking into social networks requires you to know people adjacent to them and have them carry that message it's no different than advertising if you are just jumping in on twitter or jumping in on insta and throwing a message out there and saying i'm a doctor look at me um now

Corey 33:43

now maybe there's still value because it almost inoculates around that person right it's it if you see somebody drop some some anti-vax nonsense on instagram and then the first 10 highest rated comments are all from doctors saying this is crazy and here's why yeah maybe you're not going to help that individual who made that post but maybe their friend who comes and looks at that is going to say oh okay actually now i see the counterpoint i i get it so it really just depends on what they're doing and how they're how they're implementing this but this

Corey 34:16

is one of those things you've just got to watch because there is some good psychology there but just imagine for example if it's okay well we know that these interactions on social media are the most effective let's start driving those but then you start driving these things that are not really those interactions they're

Corey 34:31

they're not people in your social circle you're

Corey 34:33

you're not doing what you set out to do um so you've just got to watch the a tactic. This is a tactic to watch very, very carefully. Carter,

Zain 34:40

Carter, I'm going to end on this. I didn't plan to ask this, but Corey's just kind of brought it up for me in a sense, which is we now sit here at a moment where you've talked about, we've all talked about in some ways, this lack of vaccines has increased the amount of people who want the vaccine, the scarcity model.

Zain 34:58

That seems to be the best, this new cycle of lack of vaccine seems to be the best pro-vax campaign in in many ways, right? Or perhaps the, you know, the side door to a pro-vax campaign. If you're the government right now, provincial or federal, some general principles as to when you roll out your official vaccination campaign as terms of take this vaccine, fucking people, what are you doing? Has any of the core rules, have they changed because of the state of affairs that we find ourselves in? Or are they the same?

Carter 35:28

Well, I think that one of the great challenges challenges will be when you start moving from priority one, because it looks almost like the plan is to be, there's priority one, and then there's everybody else. And I just don't think that that's the way to go. If it were me, I'd create priority

Carter 35:42

priority one, A, B, C, D, then

Carter 35:45

then I go to priority two, A, B, C, D, then I go to priority three, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, all the way down to zed because the more priority like the more uh queuing you do the more kind of um uh

Carter 36:00

uh scarcity that you are officially artificially kind of creating it is logistically far more challenging to manage right can you mr hogan would you please show me your id that enables you to get this vaccination uh you've got you know x number of children under the age of 12 ergo you're entitled

Carter 36:18

entitled blah, blah, blah. You

Carter 36:19

You work in an educational institution, you're entitled. Whatever

Carter 36:22

Whatever the criteria are, that obviously makes it hard to manage, but it does change the way that people perceive the vaccination. The people outside of those groups clamor. They get excited. They want to have the vaccination. And if you want to see significant vaccination, then that's the way to do it. It comes at a political cost because

Carter 36:41

because the better political way of doing it is

Carter 36:46

is just to simply say it's

Carter 36:48

it's open it's available to everybody anybody who wants a shot can get one tomorrow but

Carter 36:51

but the problem with that is not everybody who wants a shot can get one tomorrow so

Carter 36:54

so i don't know a bit of back and forth i'm a little bit back and forth on it but i would run it with very very um clear levels of vaccination to try and give people uh

Carter 37:06

that as as uh something to shoot for like

Zain 37:10

like i said we're going to do another deep dive on this on this shortly uh in a future episode cory uh

Zain 37:15

uh because Because, Corey, Corey wants it. Corey really wants it. Corey, finish us off on this. Any of the rules that we've mentioned earlier on a pro-vax campaign changed, if you're the government, based on some of the chapters that we've seen recently?

Corey 37:29

Well, let's look at the silver lining. Being behind our peer countries on this matter allows us to have an awful lot of examples to look at and pick from on vaccine distribution and look at what works. If you look at the UK, for example, they're seeing much higher uptake than they originally planned, and maybe we can learn something from them. If we want to look at the United States, there are 50 states that provide us various models for vaccine distribution that we can learn from. So I don't know. This is outside of my area of expertise. The logistics of vaccine distribution are not something that I learned in business school. But, you know, I do like what Stephen has said about the

Corey 38:09

the idea of building this scarcity and this sense that if you don't take your opportunity now, maybe you're at the back of the line. I just want

Carter 38:15

want to jump in a little bit on the other models, though, because you're not going to see the vaccine hesitance or the anti-vaxxers getting in line. What you're seeing is a significant

Carter 38:23

significant push from those people who really want the vaccine, and that artificially inflates numbers. We really won't understand this until two years after it's done.

Carter 38:33

That's the challenge. We're not going to really know what happened until we're able to look back and understand what happened.

Zain 38:40

We're going to leave that segment there, Corey, a tight 38 minutes on vaccines. scenes i know that's what you wanted to do on

Zain 38:46

on your sunday i

Zain 38:48

drew i drew it out longer you know why why because i could the only reason is because i could yeah it's

Carter 38:54

next week's guest toy guest strategist that's gonna be great that's

Carter 38:58

that's good ryan jesper said you're

Zain 38:59

you're looking for another gig yeah no i do you know who else is looking for another gig craig kuhlberger now he's a few

Zain 39:05

few times on this program uh you've had people to do this show uh let's move on to our next Next segment, if the glove fits, fucking acquit. Guys, we're talking about Donald Trump, the second impeachment trial. Corey, I'm going to start with you. 57 to 43 did not meet the two thirds threshold. Seven Republicans joined all the Democrats to convict. Were you surprised by any part of that outcome? Were you surprised by any part of that outcome, whether it be the 57 to 43, whether it be the seven senators, or whether it be the punchline, Donald Trump was acquitted and did not get the two thirds that he needed in the Senate.

Corey 39:45

I was surprised it was 57 instead of 56. And that was the extent of my surprise.

Corey 39:51

It's not it played out exactly as you could have predicted going from that initial vote that I

Corey 39:56

I think it was Rand Paul, or

Corey 39:58

or called that, that essentially said, hey, what do you believe that this is something that we can even, you

Corey 40:05

you know, punish Donald Trump for now that he's a private citizen. So it was a it

Corey 40:11

was what it was. And it's done now. And now we can move on with our lives. I

Zain 40:15

I feel like you want to just move on from everything. The general life.

Zain 40:21

This is great. This is good. Carter 57 to 43. Seven Republicans joining all the Democrats. Trump acquitted any of those three statements surprise you.

Carter 40:31

Yeah, I mean, And him being acquitted doesn't surprise me at all. Fifty seven. I mean, yeah, I was I was pleased to see one more than predicted jump on board. Would have loved to seen it gone over 60. But I think that this is actually really interesting when you think about the filibuster. You know, when it's it's Trump, whether or not he committed a crime that even McConnell says that he committed and has suggest, you know, McConnell

Carter 40:55

McConnell is simply now suggesting that

Carter 40:57

that he should face the

Carter 40:58

the legal consequences. That

Carter 41:00

be the legal consequences of any private citizen. That's interesting. But given the severity and what's at stake for the Republican Party, my

Carter 41:11

my thinking is that this is absolute lunacy, that they didn't get

Carter 41:16

get over 60 votes, that there aren't 10

Carter 41:21

Republicans that see the challenges of

Carter 41:24

of the arguments were being made by their own side or lack thereof, because it wasn't like the Republican

Carter 41:29

Republican or Trump's lawyers didn't really blow

Carter 41:31

blow the doors off the joint. You know, they were kind of stupid as hell. So this gives me pause to think about the future functioning of the American government because obviously if you can't get 60 votes for this, what are you going to get 60 votes for? Like under what circumstance does the Republican Party lose enough control over its members to have a really good conversation about gun control. I mean, that just seems entirely

Carter 42:03

entirely impossible. And the only thing that they're going to get passed is either going to be without the filibuster rules or as part of a budget reconciliation, which is, of course, without the filibuster rules.

Zain 42:15

rules. Corey, not only the filibuster, but Carter mentioned something interesting about McConnell. I want you to tease out what you saw from McConnell's strategy, which was vote

Zain 42:27

vote to acquit right like certainly vote to acquit on the rationale that trump was no longer in the white house but also simultaneously doing two things number one what carter said saying he should face the ramifications any private citizen would right not going as far but alluding to yeah like if you feel like there's merit try this guy and number two explicitly saying that the former president was practically and morally responsible for the the insurrection. Playing both sides or good political strategy, Corey? What do you what do you think? Or is playing both sides good political strategy? So here's

Corey 43:00

here's Yeah, so here's my hot take. This was the best example of leadership I have ever seen from Mitch McConnell. I think Mitch McConnell wanted to vote to convict. I think Mitch McConnell hates the guy. I don't mean leadership in a broad sense, by the way, I mean, leadership of the Republican conference here. He voted to acquit to

Corey 43:17

to give cover to his party to vote to acquit because Because he was worried about senators who would otherwise be in these primary situations that would just get wrecked by the Donald Trump supporters, the Trumpsters that are out there. He's not in that position. He could have easily voted to convict, and I think he wanted to vote to convict. But I think he knew as leader, him voting to convict makes it much more difficult for them not to. And so what he did is he walked this line and he gave kind of intellectual air cover to this notion that you can loathe Donald Trump. You can actually call for him to have criminal charges against him, because McConnell's not worried about the consequences down the road to that, you know, to him and his primaries. But he gets to put voice to that, and then say, but I still voted to acquit because I think that you can't do this to a private citizen. So he's created a landscape that allows his conference to pick and choose the elements that they want and that they need in order to be successful themselves. So I, you know, give credit where credit's due. The guy knows the game. He is a very savvy political operator. He's got no soul. He's an evil man. But he's a very savvy political operator. Carter,

Zain 44:20

Carter, is that what you saw here? Savvy political operator? Or were you tending to a little bit more of a, there's no way Mitch McConnell kind of is able to get away with speaking for both sides of his mouth? What do you think? Do you agree with Corey? Or do you feel like there's a different narrative and analysis placed on what you saw from Moscow Mitch? Mitch?

Carter 44:39

The man made it so that he could just walk away from anything vaguely resembling

Carter 44:44

values or any other type of connection to humanity, really. I mean, he may have been leading. He may have been showing his Republican cohort how

Carter 44:56

how to skate around one of the biggest issues in the American Republic. But

Carter 45:01

But keep in mind that what he's done is he's acquitted a man who who incited a riot or insurrection. And maybe I object to the word insurrection, but he certainly incited a riot that wound up storming the Capitol with violent intent. The fact that a police officer died, another one has committed suicide, a number of the people who stormed the building died. This is an American

Carter 45:24

American tragedy, and Mitch McConnell washed his hands of it for political expediency. I'm not sure I characterize that as leadership so much as I just view it as crass political opportunism.

Corey 45:42

See, the thing is it wasn't opportunism for his own benefit or I think even for the Republicans' ability to control the Senate. I think it was him supporting his conference. And you don't need to like the guy to know that he's provided them any

Corey 45:57

any cards for however this plays out in two years. They can say, yes, I didn't vote to convict, but as Mitch McConnell articulated, we could still hate the guy and look at Mitch McConnell's words there. Or you can say, no, I didn't vote to convict, and just use that as the end of your sentence. He's provided the people that he serves with the ability to do whatever they want, and you don't need to like it. I don't like it, but it was a very pro-team approach to things here. I

Zain 46:27

I want to ask you about a few other characters in this impeachment saga and get your take on their political maneuvering. Corey, let's go back to you on this. Let's talk about President Biden. He issued a statement several hours later. I want to actually make note of the time right on after the verdict and highlighting the bipartisan nature of the conviction, bringing up McConnell's comments, obviously not bringing up the fact McConnell voted in the way he did, but bringing up McConnell's very clear comments. And then keeping with the stated, you know, desire to see the country overcome its divisions, talked about this is how we heal and move forward, and that we have as leaders have a duty to defend the truth and to defeat the lies. So several hours later, bipartisan nature, you know, a strong criticism around Trump and defeating and defending the truth. But then also talking about let's, you know, use this as a flashpoint to start beginning our healing, put it behind us. What do you make of that statement? And I've given you just a small amount of it, so granted, but from what you saw and what I've said, what did you kind of make of that approach by President Biden? It

Corey 47:32

was an approach designed to minimize his involvement in the story. You emphasized the several hours later. He knew exactly that this verdict was going to come in this way at this time. It's not as though they had to scramble for some sort of unknown outcome. They did it so that the news cycle would move on and write their stories and build their commentary without Joe Biden weighing in on it there. And the entire statement

Corey 47:55

statement was designed in the same fashion. As you also stated, it restated a lot of what

Corey 48:01

what he said during his inauguration, this need for America to be truthful and to move on. And by pointing to Mitch McConnell's comments, insofar as he attempted to influence the news cycle at all, it was, go look at what Mitch McConnell has to say. So this was the smart play. You do not want to make this a part as you want to make this as unpartisan an issue as possible, nonpartisan as possible. And you have no interest in dragging yourself into what is ultimately still, at the end of the day, a political loss. They did not convict Donald Trump. Right,

Zain 48:33

Right, right. Carter, do you like what Biden did?

Carter 48:39

You know what, I just— Why

Zain 48:40

Why the sigh? Is it because you don't know if it was right or wrong, or you wanted to go more heavy?

Carter 48:48

don't know what to think.

Carter 48:49

think. I'm literally struggling with this. What do I think of—I

Carter 48:54

of—I mean, Biden didn't have a role, right? Biden didn't prosecute this. Biden didn't carry this in any way, shape, or form. I mean, this is an interesting process in that it's done by Congress, right? The House impeached him. They then presented the case to the Senate using the House impeachment managers. This is not something that is done from the executive branch at all. And I guess what I'm talking myself into is that Biden then managed it pretty well by not doing

Carter 49:27

doing anything, right? By staying relatively silent on it, that was his ultimate nod

Carter 49:35

nod to it, nodding to Congress that they're the ones who are going to be responsible for how this is perceived and how this has played out in the course of history. And all Biden was was a relatively minor figure in the overall impeachment of Donald Trump. And he now gets to return to his previously scheduled programming.

Zain 49:59

Carter, I'm going to stick with you to ask you about Chuck Schumer. Two comments from him in his floor speech that I thought were interesting. Number one, indicating that this vote will live on in infamy. And number two, look at what the Republicans have now been forced to defend. end, trying to extend the cycle, so to speak, on this story, on this impeachment, trying to wedge it into a historical timeline rather than an immediate timeline. What do you think of that? He knew he was going to lose. He probably knew from the start he didn't have the votes, that they were not going to come, but wanted to kind of make this a moment for long-term reflection that would cast a stain on anyone that voted to acquit. Right. Do you like that strategy from Senate Majority Leader Schumer or would you have gone with something different in your mind?

Carter 50:48

You know, I like the strategy. I just don't know that it's going to work. I mean, what is 65 percent of Republicans don't, you know, didn't think that Trump should be convicted, didn't think that he did anything wrong. The Republican Party isn't too solitude. There's not two halves. It's majority of people who feel that

Carter 51:07

that Donald Trump is is their guy and their leader and their brand of conservatism is akin to a cult. So trying to get them trying to make this some sort of a trial where the Republican Party itself was put on trial and

Carter 51:22

and a verdict was in

Carter 51:24

in some fashion handed down is

Carter 51:26

is lunacy. It wasn't the Republican Party survived the trial. The Republican Party is going to survive the immediate aftermath. Will the Republican Party survive in the history books? I don't know. Will the American Republic survive in the history books? I don't know. Democracies fail. Parties fail. History is written decades

Carter 51:49

decades and centuries afterwards. So, watching, you know, trying to create yourself a historical moment within a tactical

Carter 52:00

tactical failure, and that's ultimately what it was, just seems like quite a stretch for me. And I don't, I think Schumer overreached.

Zain 52:09

cory is it a stretch for you the vote will live in infamy that this is what they you know this is how low they've had to stoop and defend trying to wedge it as part of history rather than the short-term tactical loss as both you and carter have pointed out yeah

Corey 52:24

yeah i don't think that noting that something will live in infamy immediately discounts the possibility it will live in infamy i don't think it was necessary to say i

Corey 52:32

i think a lot about the gulf of tonkin resolution the you you know, this resolution that dragged the United States into the Vietnam War and how it only had two people vote against it across both the House and the Senate.

Corey 52:44

However, I think if you had given many of those people a chance to redo their vote later in their life, you would have had a significantly different result. Sometimes people get caught up in a historical moment, and it takes distance to say that was a bad vote. And it is my sincere hope for the United States of America That the Republicans who voted to acquit will feel that that was a bad vote.

Corey 53:05

By Schumer saying that, however, by Schumer saying that, it almost makes it less likely that's the case because it keeps it in that partisan frame. It's always going to be in that for the next bit anyhow. It's going to take some time. Ask him in 10 years, ask him in 15 years. um but let's not forget this notion of something living in infamy came

Corey 53:23

came from a speech by fdr about december 7th and that day did live in infamy it is possible to note something in the moment and draw eyes to it later uh i don't think this is a speech on the same level i don't think it's something that they're going to be talking about in history books but yeah

Corey 53:40

yeah there's a real possibility schumer's right it's just it him saying it doesn't add to that possibility go

Zain 53:46

go ahead i'm going to to stick with you for the last person i want to cover here which is nancy pelosi on the heels of this uh verdict coming out she indicates that there will be an independent 9-11 style commission to explain what happened on january 6th analyzing the uh you know the the the outcome analyzing how it happened analyzing uh what happened uh and the causes and the facts good strategy bad strategy Is she reinserting herself into the story here on the heels of a tactical loss? What do you think?

Corey 54:19

I really don't know. I struggle with this one a lot. I'm not sure that this is worth the time and energy that's going to go into it, because ultimately, I think that the conclusions will be, you know, they don't have this 67 vote threshold they need to get. You can have the House and the Senate actually jointly look at this with their Democratic majorities and maybe get something done. on. But I

Corey 54:41

I don't know. Is this how Joe Biden wants to spend his first 100 days? I'm not sure it's a great use of it.

Zain 54:47

Yeah, keeping this story alive seems to be part of her ambition with this. Who knows what the timeline on this something like this looks like, but you make a good point. Carter, same question for you on the Pelosi strategy, reinserting herself back into the narrative, but then also coming in with the reiteration of this independent commission commission to study the facts and causes of the U.S. Capitol ride. Good strategy, bad strategy in your mind?

Carter 55:10

Well, I mean, these studies in the past have generated, you

Carter 55:15

positive outcomes for the government in charge. You know, Benghazi was studied and the commissions that were, you know, it wasn't a commission that looked into it, but it was a hearing process that created

Carter 55:27

created a narrative that stuck to Hillary Clinton. maybe this is some sort of a of a process that can stick to um they can stick to uh to donald trump and to the republican party that's possible and the way that she's setting it up it's not going to get in the way of doing the business of being the government um it is a commission it's an independent commission the 9-11 commission wasn't like having hearings every day where it occupied one of the committees it is outside of the normal operations of the of the government and that that That allows them then to kind of set this, bring

Carter 56:01

bring it back. And, you

Carter 56:04

know, the other one, you know, the big Warren commission of the JFK assassination. I

Carter 56:09

I mean, some of these things become part of the lexicon of American politics. And maybe this will be one

Carter 56:15

one of those moments that actually actually

Carter 56:18

does undo the Republican Party as it's currently formulated.

Zain 56:23

We're going to leave that segment there, move it on to our final segment, our over, under and our lightning round. Corey, the homestretch of the podcast. I know you're excited.

Zain 56:32

But Stephen Carter, are you ready?

Carter 56:34

I'm really ready. I wish that people could see Corey's face through this podcast. It has been a treat. A treat. Yeah,

Zain 56:41

Yeah, it has been a treat. And he's giving us literally nothing right now.

Zain 56:47

Carter, I'm going to start with you for that reason. On a scale of one to 10, how do you think the Dems performed in this impeachment trial for Donald Trump, of the second impeachment trial, both from their impeachment managers. They had some fumblings around the witnesses. I didn't mention any of that because it was not that it wasn't germane, but I think it would have been too deep in

Zain 57:07

weeds. No, too deep,

Zain 57:07

But also the outcome that they got, which was they didn't ultimately convict Trump.

Zain 57:13

What do you kind of make of their performance overall?

Carter 57:15

I think I would have liked to seen some sort of a nod towards at least bringing witnesses. I mean, ultimately, everybody decided by that point that this was going to be over. But some witnesses, some impact, you know, would have made it much more difficult for the Republicans to acquit. I mean, what happens if you if you hear from police officers who were standing beside the police officer who was bludgeoned to death? What

Carter 57:43

What happens then? Like what happens when you put that type of testimony in front of the Senate in a human way? i would have liked to have seen um but

Carter 57:53

but overall i mean the democrats did their job they presented the better case um and they stuck together as a party

Carter 58:01

party uh they stuck together as a team and that is is probably their only victory so on sticking together i give them an eight on presenting the case i give them a six on actually having any impact i give them a two so

Carter 58:13

so that's your yeah well

Zain 58:14

well yeah it answers my question but i was not expecting you to answer my question uh cory Corey, Caleb1to10,

Zain 58:20

Caleb1to10, what are you giving the Democrats for their performance overall? I'm not going to contextualize it because I did for Carter. What are you giving them overall?

Corey 58:28

Yeah, it was like the All-Star game. Great individual performances, great dunks, didn't matter. And a good reminder that a game is

Corey 58:35

is more than the sum of individual moments and a team is more than the sum of its parts. They did everything great except win. And at that point, it was deeply irrelevant.

Zain 58:44

Corey, I'm going to stick with you. I love that answer. I'm going to stick with you on this. On the GOP, over-under on seven, the score you'd give them on the long-term impact for those that voted to acquit. The long-term impact over-under on seven, I know I'm asking to put your flash-forward glasses on, but what do you think? Well,

Corey 59:01

Well, how long term are we talking here? We're talking

Corey 59:03

talking historical. Let's talk historical. Oh, historically under. They're going to get run into the ground for this. This is the kind of thing that they'll be embarrassed about their grandkids asking about. But, you know, don't expect that to play out for long before, like, there's going to be a few election cycles before that.

Zain 59:21

Now you got me curious about the question. Suppose I said next presidential election, would you still sit under?

Zain 59:27

Oh, okay. Interesting. So you're thinking, okay, interesting. I think

Corey 59:30

think they played it tactically well in the in the short term. Their strategy was great. But if they have an eye towards history, they should be embarrassed.

Zain 59:37

I'm going to ask you that same twofold question over under on seven for the GOP and their the long lasting impact historically and then with eyes to the next presidential.

Carter 59:47

Well, I think historically it's going to be way under. I think that history is going to judge this period of time and the Republican Party very, very harshly. This is not, by any historical measure of democracy, a great time for the American Republic. public um and

Carter 1:00:06

and i don't think that it's a particularly good time for republicans i mean even if you take it in a short shorter term i mean you asked about the next presidential election um they could still win it but they can only win it because things are kind of stacked in their favor on the electoral college the the

Carter 1:00:22

the way that they are able to manipulate certain states in the um cult-like hold that they currently have on their following um if things start to slip up If Donald Trump forces

Carter 1:00:33

forces them to lose some of that control, things could be bad for a very long time. And certainly, I know what I'm rooting for.

Zain 1:00:41

Well, thank you, Carter. That's what I expected from you, a narrative with no numbers. Thank you so much. I really do appreciate it. Carter, I'm going to stick with you. Simple question, 1 to 10 on the McConnell strategy. You've both given me your take on it. What do you think of the McConnell strategy that

Carter 1:00:58

I think it's like a total fail. I mean, I think the guy was a total prick.

Carter 1:01:02

But Corey made some really good arguments, and that's even frustrating me more. So I don't know what to say. I'm just so angry about it. I just think he was so

Carter 1:01:15

I don't even have words. It just angers me where he is.

Zain 1:01:18

is. You don't need words. You just need a fucking number. What was

Carter 1:01:24

Corey. I give him an F.

Zain 1:01:27

oh my god cory one to ten uh you're redeeming yourself simply because of carter's late game late game deterioration cory one to ten on the mcconnell strategy what do you think i

Corey 1:01:39

i give it a nine i i can't really fault it look

Corey 1:01:44

don't like the guy i don't like what he did but it was good strategy and it it uh got his party out of a box god

Zain 1:01:51

final question cory i'm I'm sticking with you on this one. You're stuck in a room with Craig Kilberger, Mark Kilberger, and yourself, and you got two doses of the vaccine. What are you doing?

Corey 1:02:02

Well, I'm making them share a needle, and I'm using one.

Zain 1:02:06

That's the B2E strategy. Nicely done.

Zain 1:02:10

Carter, same question for you. You're stuck in a room with Craig Kilberger, Mark Kilberger, and yourself. You got two doses of the vaccine. What are you doing?

Carter 1:02:17

I'm asking them if they'd give me a vaccine, because obviously Trudeau gave it to them first.

Zain 1:02:25

We're going to leave it there. That's episode 916 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Belgey. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we'll see you next time.

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