Episode 914: Champing at the bit

Zain 0:02

This is The Strategist, episode 914. My name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, what is going on?

Corey 0:10

Well, you guys were probably watching the Super Bowl. I didn't have such luck today. I had a bit of work to do.

Zain 0:15

Carter was all about that AFC life, weren't you, Carter?

Carter 0:19

I did not watch. I do not care. I'm told someone won, someone lost. That's all.

Zain 0:26

Okay, well, thank you for a stellar start to the show,

Zain 0:29

as always. Well, I like to

Carter 0:29

to dig in. I like to dig into the big issues, you know, the big issues, none of those sporting distractions, the opiate of the masses, as it were.

Zain 0:39

I'm sorry, did you just call the Super Bowl the opiate of the masses?

Carter 0:42

I believe I did. I believe I did. Okay,

Zain 0:44

I just wanted to be clear. Corey, you're not even with me on this. I have no alignment from you whatsoever around the fact that you have watched the Super Bowl tonight. So what are we actually going to talk about? There's no banter up front. I mean, other than the fact that we are trying this podcast live on Clubhouse with Corey, what did you say? With ones of fans? Is that the correct term?

Corey 1:06

Well, you know, we've always been very dedicated to building large audience bases, which is why we decided that we were going to live stream on something that's still private access. But it's pretty cool. It's pretty fun. We're going to see if this works. Maybe it will, maybe it won't.

Corey 1:20

People will get to see how little effort we put into the production of this show. Do

Carter 1:24

you guys remember that time I invested in the television production stuff so we could broadcast TV stuff to YouTube and Facebook? And

Carter 1:33

you guys were like, no, I want to wear my toque, and that's it. We told you that

Zain 1:38

that was not on brand, Carter. We told you that our whole thing is to not try hard. This, by the way, is very off-brand for us, Corey. We're bleeding edge here. And it shows. And it shows with the ones of fans that have joined us to listen to this live. All righty, let's move it on to our first segment. We've got a lot of stuff to cover. Let's move it on to our first segment, our first segment, long-term gain. Guys, I want to talk about Jagmeet Singh. That's a phrase I've never said before. No. I want to talk about Jagmeet Singh. I want to talk about his election promise on long-term care. And I want to use that as a gateway to talking about election promises, how they're constructed, when we should construct them. Is there a is there a best practice in this domain, especially in a minority government, especially when there's a political dynamic surrounding Jagmeet Singh related to does he feel like the liberals are going to be potentially trampling on, you know, traditional NDP ground as it relates to policy? So, Carter, let me start with you and with a very simple question. Why do you think Jagmeet Singh came out with a long-term care policy X months, and I say X because we don't know if it's the spring or the fall or even beyond that, before an election?

Carter 2:53

I have no idea. I mean, as always, the NDP strategy baffles me and leaves me a little bit confused because there are certain ebbs and flows and a strategic opportunity. And this doesn't really feel like an opportunity right now. It feels like people in general aren't really paying attention.

Carter 3:12

So to jump in with something this significant, and to be clear, I do think that this is significant. I do think this is something that could garner the NDP votes. votes. I think that it's

Carter 3:21

it's a good idea from their base to be targeting this.

Carter 3:27

But I'm a little bit baffled as to why it's been done now. So normally,

Carter 3:32

normally, there's a reason why we hold until later in an election to be giving away major

Carter 3:38

major policy planks. Most people start to pay attention later on. I've talked about this a lot, you know, the give a fuck factor. How much do people care now versus is how much will they care days before they vote and

Carter 3:50

and this to me um i

Carter 3:52

i mean if you if you've done a little bit harder job maybe to tie it to uh to covid and the lack of vaccinations maybe i could see it now but um the messaging just feels like it's it's more focused on private uh private versus public ownership and less focused on the people who actually it impacts which to me does does strike me as a pretty traditional NDP structure.

Zain 4:15

Corey, before I go to you, Carter, what do you make of the timing? So you don't understand, you

Zain 4:19

you like the policy. Anything to say about the timing? What do you think they might be thinking? So you don't understand it, but what do you think internally someone was pitching Jagmeet or leadership within the federal NDP to say, let's do this now because? What do you feel like the second half of that sentence could have been? What's the strongest argument in your mind that

Zain 4:37

could have been made right now? Well,

Carter 4:39

Well, I think the strongest argument would be that there's a vacuum, right? But I'm not even sure that that's true, because everybody's been talking about vaccination rates for quite some time, and I'm not sure that it even fits. So I'm concerned that that's not the way

Carter 4:57

way it should be, but I don't actually know. I don't actually know. No, Corey,

Zain 5:03

Corey, Corey, I'm going to ask you the same question. Why do you think Jagmeet Singh went right now? And if so, a little bit deeper? Why do you think this particular policy?

Zain 5:22

Carter, do you feel like there's any merit to the argument that Jagmeet

Zain 5:26

Jagmeet and the NDP have given a a lot, so to speak, to the Trudeau liberals who seem to be inching leftward and leftward consistently, culminating with that speech from the throne where they've highlighted things like universal pharma care, universal child care, things that are NDP territory traditionally. Do you feel like this is staking the claim, telling the base that this is where we belong and we're going to take a much more bolder, progressive stance on things so that they can perhaps inoculate against the leftward shift of the Trudeau liberals?

Carter 5:58

Yeah, I mean, I do think that that's a problem. I think that that's an issue that the NDP, we've talked about on the podcast before, the NDP has not really got a

Carter 6:08

area right now all by themselves. They're pressed for their green positioning

Carter 6:12

positioning by the Green Party and they're pressed by the Liberals on some of their more, you know, traditional

Carter 6:18

traditional policy planks. So this is, to me, this could have been written and put out by the Liberal Party, and it would have been very much understood.

Carter 6:33

So anyways, I mean, I think this is going to be an interesting challenge for the NDP to actually be heard, because they might be muted as

Carter 6:46

as they go through.

Carter 6:50

As they go through their policy development, in part because the NDP have taken some of their spots or the liberals have taken the NDPs.

Zain 6:58

Corey, do you want to repeat what you said last round? Are you okay with now realizing that you were on mute for our podcast recording? Which, by the way, you know what? Clubhouse exclusive. Fuck those people. Fuck those people. That content

Corey 7:11

content was Clubhouse exclusive. So enjoy.

Zain 7:14

You're the only ones who are going to hear

Zain 7:17

Okay, hold on. Corey, I have a question for you. Let's say you're helping the federal NDP right now. You're in a position where they've asked you to give them a hand. They're now perhaps more debt-free. They know that this liberal machine has a very progressive tinge and leaning. What are you advising them regarding policy and timing of policy? Also regarding the fact that they currently sit with some semblance of a balance of power? What are you telling them regarding their strategy for the upcoming election as it stands now in early February?

Corey 7:53

we've talked about this the fundamental challenge that the ndp has is that most canadians see uh the trudeau liberals is fairly progressive whether that's the case or not i think is in the eye of the beholder but it really does leave jagmeet singh without an island to call his own and um and so i suspect what you're going to see is is the ndp tack more to the left and create these these contrasts that the liberals can't go to in these positions that the liberals um are not willing to back to allow some differentiation to occur. And so I think that's a relatively sound policy, although I, as always, with a with a situation where you start pushing yourself to kind of the political extremes, you do risk losing voters along the way, too. So it's a bit of a calibration effort that's going to be ahead of the NDP.

Zain 8:38

option is just to say, we're that but

Zain 8:41

right. And you seem

Corey 8:42

seem to see a bit of the language coming out of the NDP trying to cover that base as well. So yeah, I mean, the long-term care promise, yes, maybe it's a very progressive policy plank, but the way Jagmeet Singh talked about it was Justin Trudeau made

Corey 8:56

made a promise and he broke his promise. And so it becomes less about policy differences and more about differences of character. And one of the reasons why that might be particularly appealing to the NDP is that that's also the message that the conservatives are pushing. And

Corey 9:09

And if the conservatives and the NDP are both coming hard at the liberals on matters of ethics, and they're just trying to tear down that house.

Corey 9:17

If you're Jagmeet Singh, maybe it makes sense that you don't move anywhere and you just start using some of those bricks that came a-tumbling from next door to build up a stronger base of MPs and a stronger base of support going forward.

Zain 9:29

Carter, you know, there is a thought

Zain 9:31

thought that when a party announces a piece of flagship policy for an upcoming election that other parties almost have a push or a desire to respond. What What would you suggest if you're the Trudeau Liberals right now or the O'Toole government? Are you taking this seriously? Are you using the NDP timing to calibrate any of your timing? Is there even a, you know, a subtweet style response to what the NDP have done that you would suggest if you're the Trudeau Liberals? Are you just on your own schedule running your own game now that you've seen this first move by the NDP?

Carter 10:07

Yeah, I mean, I don't think that frontrunners should spend a lot of time talking about the party in third place. I think that when you're in first place, you should go and run your own agenda, make everybody else respond to you. The challenge that the Trudeau Liberals have had over the last two weeks is that their agenda has been undermined by their actual performance. We've talked a lot about vaccines and how that has been the agenda for the last couple of weeks. If they're able to get things back on track, as they're signaling in the middle of February here, then they can start to run their agenda through the budget presentation in the later spring. That's really when they're going to want to develop

Carter 10:45

develop and show a significant starting

Carter 10:49

starting point, I guess, for their own messaging. But I would not spend any time responding to the third-place party in the House. or in the House.

Zain 11:01

Goran, same question to you to kind of wrap up this segment. From a broader perspective, how are you as the incumbent party or a government looking at another party putting out policy? And more specifically, if you're the liberals, are you responding at all to what you're seeing, especially knowing that you're probably going to want to tread on similar territory once this election is ultimately in the works?

Corey 11:23

Well, you're going to watch it and you're going to see if there's any kind of movement. But I suspect there won't be significant movement on this matter. And B, it's usually it's almost always a mistake to run against the third place party. So there will be some red orange ridings that you're going to have to keep your eyes on for sure, because the Conservatives aren't even in them. I'm thinking in areas around Toronto in particular, maybe southwestern Ontario, but it would be a big mistake to start focusing your efforts and your concerns on Jagmeet Singh. That would be taking you away from, I think, where the balance of the conversation during the election with the public is going to happen. So, well, you may find it annoying. You may want to respond. Message discipline isn't called message discipline because it's easy. And you've got to resist that temptation, and you've got to keep your eyes on the prize.

Zain 12:12

Carter, I have a quick question for you. I said that was going to be the last one to Corey. But if you were advising the NDP right now, you've put out this policy late last week. What are some of the tactical things that you're trying to do with it this week if you're helping the NDP? I assume you're going to try to fundraise off of it. Is there anything else you try to do? Do you try to double down and make this an issue over and over, get it into earned media? I know that's a loaded question, but from your strategist playbook, what are some of the things you do once you have launched a policy into the public sphere? What are some of the things and tools that you can leverage now that it's out there?

Carter 12:48

Well, I really think that if they're not making it about humans, that they're really missing out on the opportunity. I don't think anybody is going to vote on public versus private, especially when long-term care facilities have been absolutely ravaged by COVID. So make sure that you're understanding, you're talking a lot about the employees that are working in these facilities. You should be talking a lot about the people who are not only working there, but who are living there and dying there. The impact of this pandemic is the reason and rationale to move that from private to public ownership. And

Carter 13:21

And that rationale is not, it's

Carter 13:24

it's not large, it's micro, and you go one person at a time.

Corey 13:41

about features. It doesn't mean anything without that follow-up thought behind it. Why is public better than private? And be aware that that debate will also play out the other side too. People will talk about the quote-unquote benefits of private versus the quote-unquote benefits of public and the drawbacks of either as well. If you are just focused on the delivery mechanism and not why that delivery mechanism might be advantageous, you are going to get lost in the broader public conversation. So I

Corey 14:24

I would encourage the NDP to really focus group this thing. And yeah, this is Canada. And sometimes you can just say public health care and people will say, yeah, sounds good. Awesome. Love public health care. Because of course, we've got a long history of those debates in different parts of the country. But it's

Corey 14:40

it's not an inherent good to most people. You do need to make the case. And where I think Jagmeet Singh could do a better job is in making that case.

Zain 14:49

We'll leave that segment there, move it on to our next segment. our next segment our weekly check-in is this a problem that's big enough yet uh cory i'm going to start like every three days every three days and i feel like that's why i'm going to do this very quick hit cory kovacs

Zain 15:05

kovacs canada dipping into kovacs job loss numbers now hitting 200 000 for january uh the minister for procurement saying that the delays are behind us uh but the narrative still continues. I ask you the one simple question. Is this problem big enough yet for us to start worrying about politically and from a public health perspective?

Corey 15:28

I've been worried for weeks, whether it's appropriate to absolutely lose our heads about it and take to the streets with pitchforks, wearing our masks, of course, because we are very responsible individuals. That's a different question. And I still think we need to kind of take a beat and take a breath on this. The COVAX matter is

Corey 15:47

a weird one. Some of the spin coming out of the government doesn't inherently feel correct. We had to use COVAX in order to give vaccines.

Zain 15:54

vaccines. In order to have the triggering effect. Yeah. I

Corey 15:56

I mean, that doesn't pass kind of the reasonable person test. Although God knows that programs have been designed even more poorly than that. And so maybe there's some truth to it.

Corey 16:07

shoes of programs. Yeah, that's right. I had to buy the vaccine so that I would get the vaccine for somebody else. That's it.

Zain 16:15

it. That's the only

Zain 16:16

That's the only way people get shoes. That's the only way you get shoes in the third world. Just get vaccines. Just to let you know. It's the only way it works. Yeah. Before that, no shoes. They had no shoes before that.

Corey 16:26

Yeah, no, I mean, we've got to go buy our hipster shoes in order to get shoes for other people. That's the rules, right? No, I mean, that doesn't make a ton of sense to me.

Corey 16:34

When it comes to the notion of, are our vaccine problems behind us? Well, that's the kind of thing I think maybe you You might be

Corey 16:41

be reasonably accused of declaring victory a little too soon on. Like, let's see a couple of weeks behind us of proper vaccine numbers before we start making that declaration. I don't know. And in fact, there is some reason to believe, Zane, that we are swinging back towards more vaccines and better production. So maybe the

Corey 16:59

the freakout is actually a bit lagged as well. And maybe we're

Corey 17:03

we're in a better spot. It's hard to tell at this particular moment. Carter is shaking his head no. He looks disappointed. He looks sad.

Zain 17:11

Yeah, I don't know what he's sad about. It's usually something. Carter, what do you want to old men complain about? Is it that we started recording too late and you're now tired? Or is this like you putting up a hand in the middle of the episode? Or what's going on? Is

Carter 17:23

Is it bedtime now? No, I have two thoughts. The first is I think they totally missed the opportunity on the COVAX vaccination messaging.

Zain 17:31

What would your message have been on that? That's interesting. You're

Carter 17:34

You're damn right we're putting Canada first. You're damn right we are. We're not taking anybody else's vaccines. we were always entitled to half that's the whole point of the program so when we give half of our vaccines to someone else we're taking the other half for i mean in their defense

Zain 17:48

defense in defense they said that they just didn't dial it up to volume

Carter 17:51

volume 11 like you they said it like so apologetically i'm so sorry we're taking fuck that i want vaccines in canadians arms i'm all for helping the rest of the world and the fact that covax is set up i'm a little bit surprised i didn't know know about it until it was a shit show i mean blow the shit out of this this is a great program uh this is good for for canadians uh it's good for the rest of the world um you know two billion vaccinations in this program uh that's just good news for for the entire world and somehow as always uh the trudeau government has managed to make it a bad communication story um and that just makes me crazy and then today they're out declaring victory to cory's point declaring victory that by the 15th of february things are really going to start rocking tell you what talk about talk about it on the 22nd of february don't set any more expectations no more expectations are to be set because they keep missing them they missed them in december they missed them in january and they cannot afford to miss them in february so no more expectation setting please god someone in the trudeau government should be on our our what is the name of this app what is this someone should be there listening to this and uh making better decisions yeah

Corey 19:06

yeah clubhouse carter it's also

Carter 19:09

i wanted to call it checkerboard i don't know why i'm old i don't know i'm old what do you want carter

Zain 19:15

carter two follow-ups number one if they double down with that rhetoric and that message you have suggested what do you think that does to the trudeau government brand related to canada's

Zain 19:26

canada's place in the world and our brand about like global cooperation and we like Like, you know, put the olive branch out. Like, how do they reconcile those two things? You're giving me a look. So, you know, substantiate that with words because that's how this app works.

Carter 19:39

Who the fuck cares? Who the fuck cares? Oh, they think less of me in Turkey. Get over yourselves. You know, maybe don't do a military takeover. Okay, it wasn't a military takeover. No, no, no, that's not fair. They

Zain 19:49

They think less of you here because of how they think about you in Turkey. That's what

Carter 19:53

what it is. No, no, no, no. Here's what Canadians want. want canadians want vaccines in arms except for the the except for the um people's party people they're the only ones who don't want vaccines in their arms so don't give them the vaccine everybody else wants vaccines in the arms and we're going to think better of them because we're going to be able to do our vaccinations and other people's vaccinations but don't play this fucking game of um i'm sorry that we're putting canadians first if you're really sorry then fuck it put all all the we'll go last we'll get to the back of the line because if you're not at the back of the line and be at the front of the line this middle of the line shit sucks what

Zain 20:32

are you talking about exactly

Zain 20:34

like it's just like very us

Carter 20:36

us is crushing us the united states of america the shit show of covid is is is uh is kicking our asses in vaccination kicking our asses

Zain 20:47

cory do you do you have anything to respond i've got several thoughts but this is this is not This is not my place. I want to hear your thoughts.

Corey 20:53

I don't know. I mean, I think that what

Corey 20:56

what Stephen is saying will actually be a fairly popular opinion with Canadians. The reality is that a Canadian first, an American first, an Israel first, a UK first, this notion of putting your own citizens first, I mean, this is kind of foundational to the notion of nationalism. You know, we do it in a million different ways. Carter's just being much more overt about it than we normally hear about it, right? right? But people do like to think that you're putting your nation first.

Corey 21:22

I think it's not a great idea. I don't think it's going to leave anybody with a warm and fuzzy feeling. To your point, Zane, I do believe that it's more about how Canadians will feel about Canada. And Carter, I feel like you're missing the point.

Corey 21:35

The sense is not almost

Corey 21:37

almost even should we do this or should we not do this? I think if Canadians are being honest with themselves, they'll say, great, more vaccines, let's do it, but we'll pretend not to. It's that it reinforces this idea that the liberals handled this so badly that we are now stealing from third world countries in order to get our vaccine shipments because we didn't manage this matter particularly well. And that's the real political danger that the liberals have with this

Carter 21:59

this COVAX program. The liberals didn't communicate it properly. We always got half. We were always supposed to get half. So

Carter 22:05

So should we wait and be at the fucking back of the line again to get our half? Get to the front of the line, Trudeau. Here's my question

Zain 22:14

for you, Carter. This is something you'd be uniquely qualified to answer because it's a messaging question. If you were advising the Minister of Procurement or the Prime Minister to talk

Zain 22:26

the expectations and where we are currently as a country with vaccination, how would you respond to an accountability interview question without setting expectations, without quantifying, without actually setting milestones? milestones. How do you get away or how do you get out of a situation like that where you have to be accountable? And that's a form of interview or junket without actually

Zain 22:47

actually setting those milestones. What do you think?

Carter 22:49

Last week, you saw exactly how the Trudeau government is going to behave when it comes to getting vaccinations. We're going to be aggressive in every way that we can.

Carter 22:57

And we're going to make sure that more vaccines land here. We've got aggressive plans to make sure that every Canadian is vaccinated by the end of September. That will happen. How many next week? How many in the week after i'm not going to say because all i can tell you is whatever comes next week whatever comes the week after will be the absolute most number of vaccinations we could get into the arms of canadians that's our pledge and that's our promise don't

Carter 23:20

don't you fucking shake your head of me hogan you know that's good shit that's good shit right

Zain 23:25

is it is is it good is it good do you think that would be you think if you if you put that two words uh on on a memo for a a minister heading into sunday morning interview with evan solomon that that he or she would be like thank you for that brilliance or they'd be like go fuck yourself this is this is idiotic and i won't get away with this yes

Corey 23:44

yes sunny ways are fucking dead aren't they we're just now sprinting just sprinting to the vaccine center pushing over grandma who's going too slow on the way like no i mean they're gonna feel gross about this they're

Corey 23:57

they're gonna feel gross about this and uh and the idea that you would sit there and take a victory lap and say yeah you goddamn

Zain 24:03

goddamn right we went first, I

Corey 24:05

I think is, I think you don't understand the liberal brand. And I don't think you understand what they're trying to do in this election, which is ultimately make people feel good about how we handled COVID-19 as a nation, and what that means in terms of future electoral prospects. Do

Zain 24:19

Do I feel good? And that's interesting, because Carter, that was, but Carter, that was your point, though, right? You and I, I think, agreed, perhaps against Corey, if I'm recalling correctly, in a previous episode, where we said, it's not just the milestones that matter. It's how Canadians felt about how we got there the process and was it anxiety ridden or was it actually you know expectations were met and we felt good and we had enough airspace to talk about the positives of the vaccine so we could uh you know ensure that the vaccine hesitant group was converted i think you and i agreed on this i'm surprised by this take is what i'm saying yeah

Corey 24:51

yeah but like there's a difference between logistics and um you know being a super villain on your way to get what you want like Like, there are differences here. Like, one of them is, well, you know, we had some wrinkles in the rollout. Well, we didn't quite have these vaccination programs up. It's another entirely if people are left with a feeling, Carter, with a feeling, I'm not saying whether or not this is fair, that Canadians jumped to the front of the line in front of more needy and more deserving individuals. This

Carter 25:20

This reminds me, before the COVID nightmare began, the

Carter 25:24

the three of us went to that movie, and we asked Corey to go get popcorn. and he

Carter 25:28

he just stood at the concession letting people in front of him in line one after the other and we never got our fucking popcorn i'm

Corey 25:36

still there right now honest

Carter 25:38

honest to god like you

Carter 25:41

know what we're not jumping any cues we're not getting ahead of anything we are the ones who are failing and we are failing significantly compared to anybody else so the way you know you and your sunny ways

Carter 25:52

i'm not looking for sunny ways anymore i'm looking for vaccine in people's arms and the fact that it hasn't happened is more and more aggravating for me i'm

Zain 26:01

i'm going to leave that segment there moving on to our next segment irreverent irrelevance guys i want to talk about uh our good friends the alberta party steven you brought this to our attention because i don't think it would have caught our attention otherwise no

Carter 26:14

you guys wouldn't have paid attention and if i don't force you to talk about them you never do talk about them yeah

Zain 26:20

yeah i wonder why so

Zain 26:21

so maybe maybe i won't even tease the subject tell us what's going on in the alberta party and then i'll tell our listeners what i want to do with the with the current information here in the alberta party so carter i'm going to even leave it to you to contextualize for our non-alberta listeners who the alberta party is and give us just the infos what what they're up how would i give one

Corey 26:40

one first how would i summarize

Zain 26:42

summarize oh here we go okay go ahead please yeah relevant political

Corey 26:44

political party with zero seats that has been chasing a dream of of cutting you know the baby in half for a decade aid without any success whatsoever. Stephen Carter, however, is deeply enamored with it because it allows him to kind of relive his kind of red Tory dreams that have been shattered by the Alberta electorate time and time and time and time and time and time and time

Corey 27:09

You know, it's like Lucy with the football, this guy, and he's going to make us talk about the Alberta party again.

Corey 27:15

Nobody is talking about the Alberta party except for us and there's there's a pretty fucking good reason for it steven carter go

Carter 27:23

wow what a lead-in what a lead-in thank you cory as always you're my hero here here's the thing so the alberta party everything that cory said was right very upset okay

Carter 27:34

okay so fuck off first of all great radio secondly

Carter 27:40

they had they have an opportunity my belief is there's an opportunity Because people have been voting against the NDP and against the UCP and against the PCs in Alberta for quite some time. People aren't getting elected because of who they are. They're getting elected because of who they aren't. This goes back to 2012 in Alberta. And so that begs the question, can someone actually form that can get elected from who they are in the middle? And this isn't just about the Alberta Party. This is about the Conservative Party in British Columbia. This is about the NDP federally or the Green Party federally or the Green Party in every province. This is about small ass. Your greatest

Corey 28:17

greatest hits of relevance here. Just keep going. But

Carter 28:19

But this is exactly what I'm talking about. The only way you can get elected is if you're relevant, right? The only way you can possibly get elected is if you're relevant. And so the biggest barrier to any of these third parties or fourth parties getting actually to governing or even holding the balance of power in a legislature or in the House of Commons is the relevance question. Can we be, in fact, relevant? And

Carter 28:47

And the Alberta Party has

Carter 28:49

has a leadership process, which can be a ticket to becoming relevant. All of a sudden, you've got a new leader. There's a new energy. There's an excitement. So what do the Alberta party do? First of all, they start a long campaign. So they're going to start in May and finish on October the 22nd, I think, somewhere around there, 21st or 22nd in October. So May to October is a long period of time. No one has any money to run that long. And secondly,

Carter 29:18

the end of October is literally it's five days after municipal elections happen throughout the entire province of Alberta. So mayors are stepping down in Calgary and Edmonton. There's a lot, a tremendous amount of turnover electorally. There's going to be three or four referendum questions in just about every market in Alberta. Alberta there's a Senate election in Alberta and there's also the specter that the the federal election may not happen until October or November during

Carter 29:49

during which time the

Carter 29:50

the Alberta party think they're going to run their leadership and actually get attention I'd be willing to bet that if they ran their leadership on this schedule they will not get a headline until the very last day like the day after their leadership there will be a headline somewhere in a newspaper that says has blank won the leadership, if anybody ever chooses to run at all. They've made it so disincentivized to run that there is almost no chance that anybody's going to see this as an opportunity, and they have secured their ticket to irrelevancy. So there you go, Corey. Carter, do

Zain 30:23

do you feel like... You were right. Wait, just so I'm clear, do you feel like the timing here also adds to the potential irrelevance? Is that what I'm hearing you say as well, that the timing here, You don't get a halo or a glow from the race. You don't get any sort of intrigue because it's going to be – what I'm hearing you say is being going to be buried by the municipal election. Well, the halo is

Carter 30:43

is going to go to the

Carter 30:45

the two new mayors in Calgary and Edmonton, right?

Carter 30:48

right? So assuming that Nenshi doesn't run, which is the big assumption that I'm making, I don't think he's running because he's not running. Don Iveson has already declared that he's not running.

Carter 30:58

Those are going to be the people who get the attention. I mean, people forget when when they don't forget. People remember when Nenji was elected. I mean, he was an international news story for a couple of weeks. That's not necessarily going to happen with the next mayor. But the next mayor is going to get the most media attention in the province. And that's going to be the big thing. There'll be statements about how the mayor is going to interact with the province. There's not going to be a headline to be had for the Alberta party and the party because it will be so irrelevant. And that's the same thing that we see time and again with the Green Party. We talked about the Green Party's leadership. It lasted forever. No one even paid attention. All of these irrelevant parties, like they have to really start thinking differently. They can't think, oh, the PCs run a six-month leadership program. We should run a six-month leadership program. It's fucking asinine. That's not how small business works. It's not how small parties can work.

Zain 31:53

Corey, you're just chomping at the bits. I'm going to let you go without even asking you a question. angry she's gonna not say anything just jump

Zain 31:59

jump in and i'll formulate a question based on your response here yeah

Corey 32:02

yeah um well zane first of all it's champion at the bit not chomping at the bit common mistake don't don't worry too much about it don't beat yourself up yeah

Corey 32:10

carter has wasted so much of our fucking time here oh

Corey 32:14

he's talking about this podcast

Zain 32:16

podcast just like overall just in general

Zain 32:18

the machinations i fucking hate you too what this fucking party could it could could be Yeah, that's actually true.

Zain 32:24

This empty vessel, if it was led by Jesus, could actually win four seats, was the promise, I believe.

Corey 32:31

Okay. Let me broaden the point, and then maybe let me add a little bit of a charitable interpretation at the end as to why there is a certain appeal to these initiatives that come out of nowhere here, right? I do

Corey 32:43

do feel that these efforts tend to be a waste of time. They're well-intentioned wastes of time, but they're wastes of time nonetheless. So people from outside of politics and even in politics but not necessarily in the middle

Corey 32:53

middle or the center tend to –

Corey 32:55

it's like any campaign. It's like any election. From a position where you are not governing a political party, you look at it and you say, they're doing this all wrong.

Corey 33:03

What a bunch of clowns. How are they possibly managing it like this? And so then they go and say, well, the solution is we just create a new political party. And it's a little bit like there's a joke in the IT world about when there's two standards or three standards and someone says, well, we need just one standard that kind of fixes all of this. And so then you go from three standards to four standards because nobody can get on board. Because, you know, there are fundamental reasons why these organizations exist.

Zain 33:27

exist. Wait, was that the joke?

Corey 33:29

Yeah, I mean, it's not a funny joke. Oh, you have to be in IT to

Corey 33:33

get it. It's an IT joke. Yeah.

Corey 33:35

Yeah, it's like a USB-C joke. Don't even worry about it. But my

Corey 33:39

my point here is this. It's very easy to look at it and say, oh, you know, we should just run our political party like this. Why don't we just sit down with a piece of paper and write out an org chart and talk about how we're going to build policy or maybe even just write policy or create a process that allows all this policy to flow up? And why don't those other political parties just listen to the policy that comes out of their grassroots and all of this crap?

Corey 34:02

And ultimately, they tend to run into the same problems. But now what you have is another group of people trying to deal with the same internal mechanics that slow down action, instead of all working together in a bigger tent and trying to get the job done and having one apparatus. It's kind of like, to

Corey 34:16

to talk about IT a little bit more, if you

Corey 34:19

you had just like 12 IT departments, that'd be wasteful. It's part of the reason why when people merge companies, they tend to merge those back office things.

Corey 34:27

A lot of effort gets wasted trying to create new political parties. This is my point here. And so if you're going to create one, it's got to be created for a reason. And my fundamental challenge with the Alberta Party is it's never proven its core thesis. And not only has it never proven its core thesis, its core thesis was blown out of the water. Its core thesis in 2010 was the

Corey 34:45

the liberals can't win because their name is too toxic. The New Democrats can't win because they're the New Democrats and their name's definitely too toxic. And then do you know what happened in 2015, Zane?

Corey 34:55

The New Democrats won. I heard. I heard about that. It was in all the papers. Yet somehow the Alberta party managed not to get that hint. And they continued along as though there was a reason to exist after their main driving force. We've got to create a new party to kick out the PC party. It just fell by the wayside. And so then you had almost like a drifting about for like four years as to what this would be. And it ultimately ended up being kind

Corey 35:20

kind of a retirement home for the PC party where people like Stephen Carter have decided that they're going to put their efforts. And like, I just, I don't see the point. I mean, there's just, there's just not anybody in the province calling for this organization. There's just, there's no evidence that this is something that's required. Now, the

Corey 35:39

the reason why sometimes these things really catch fire and work is because we are in a world right now of negative partisanship. People

Corey 35:45

People tend to define themselves less as I'm X and more as I'm not X, right? And so you sometimes see by the creation of a new political party, people can really break outside of the mold. You see this, like in France, Macron's party on Marche did not exist before he just created it. And all of a sudden, there it is, and he's the president of France. Jesse Ventura, he wasn't in either political party, and he just sort of comes in, he catches a wave, and there you go.

Corey 36:10

But it's a lot harder to pull off in a parliamentary system where you've got to create a political party that has candidates on the ground everywhere. And it just takes so much time and so much effort to do these things.

Corey 36:23

And if you don't have like a fire that's igniting these people and a cause that they're going to get behind, if your cause is, well, let's take some of their policy and some of the other guy's policy and let's walk between it because that's just what we want to do here. You know, not moored to any kind of ideological anchor, not actually standing for anything except for splitting

Corey 36:42

splitting the difference. What

Carter 36:44

What the hell's the point of that? To imply that it's a splitting the – well, I don't want to defend the Alberta Party because you make me crazy, but it's not about splitting the difference. It's about a pragmatic approach that I think we can agree Rachel Notley did not bring to the NDP government. No, I would not agree with that for a minute.

Zain 37:03

Oh, for crying out loud. Yeah, I'd be joining Corey on that boat, Carter. Keep going, Doug. I'll let you keep going. You

Carter 37:08

You guys can join the boat. Rachel Notley didn't win the election. Jim Prentiss lost the election. You have to start there. No,

Carter 37:19

No, you don't. Yes, you do. So how

Corey 37:20

how come the Wild Rose didn't win the election then, Stephen?

Carter 37:23

Because Jim Prentiss stood in the debate and looked to his right and said, I'm afraid of that one. And he announced to the world that that's the one that was going to beat him. okay as much

Zain 37:34

much as i'd love to to trace back uh alberta 2012 to 2020 oh yeah just uh amazing just past glories thank you carter i'm gonna ask you what's the steven carter toolkit if they came to you and said carter we uh we're paying you uh all of our money uh which is none um but we are we are that

Zain 37:59

a pot shot that wasn't necessary by the way cory it could could be chomping or champing at the bitch so fuck you um carter thanks to grammarist.com if you want to just take a look at that um very briefly you could you could verify it uh carter they come to you and they say that we are looking to hold a leadership race here's our draft plan right now two days after the municipal elections in alberta six month process what are you saying to them what should be the process what should be uh the outcome how should they think about this should they only do it when they have a candidate that they know they want to be their next leader in place give me some broad strokes from a strategic standpoint as to what you would do to to help usher this along well

Carter 38:41

well let's make it not about the alberta party because this is the same exact same advice i would give to any of the fledgling parties uh number one you want to recruit the best possible candidate that can offer um immediate opportunity to the entire party Make it a short race because no one has any money, including the party itself. So the shorter the race, the better off it is. And then try and make it at a period that you can actually own the media cycles. So give them a modest chance to actually start to generate interest into the party itself because it doesn't matter what

Carter 39:17

what it is. The party needs to be able to get media attention. um this idea that you can exist on twitter and just in some fashion uh be capturing the political zeitgeist is lunacy absolute lunacy cory

Zain 39:32

cory would you have uh i didn't i called it where were you for the last four

Corey 39:36

four years like have you heard of what that u.s president was for that time or like what you're

Carter 39:42

you're gonna base the alberta party's rise on donald trump Trump you

Carter 39:46

want to do Trumpism like

Carter 39:48

like come on now Trumpism

Carter 39:49

Trumpism is a different thing different

Zain 39:53

Corey let's wrap this up with your strategy for for how parties should think about leadership races what are some broad principles you've run a leadership race in the past for an Alberta-based party uh yes you know yeah so so tell me what some of the broad strokes are that you should be considering either either highlighting some of the things that Carter mentioned or maybe more specifically applying it to the Alberta party case here you know their reality You know their circumstances. What would some of the advice you would dispense to them? Or how would you even start thinking about a leadership race if you were them?

Corey 40:24

Well, the dream of every political party during a leadership race, particularly when they start scheduling a longer one, which was the case in the one that I was the executive director of the party when it occurred, too, is this is our opportunity to create some momentum, create some buzz, you know, get this rolling thing going.

Corey 40:39

going. We'll sell all of these memberships. All of these people will participate. It's – political parties

Corey 40:43

parties I think wrongly

Corey 40:45

wrongly see leadership contests as when instead

Corey 40:49

instead of a time of chaos when the party can't define itself and is probably at the greatest risk of having negative attributes assigned to it, which is in my opinion the reality, they see it as we're going to have like four leaders, five leaders, six leaders all running around building their little parties and at the end it will all be one party behind one person and it will be great. But it doesn't really happen like that. It doesn't

Carter 41:09

doesn't work like that. Not at all. It doesn't

Corey 41:11

doesn't work like that at all. And then fundamentally, the

Corey 41:15

the longer a leadership contest goes on, the greater the risk of a schism is down the road.

Corey 41:20

Because you've had people who have effectively acted as de facto leaders of their factions for very long periods of time. So I do think the British tend to have this right, where they run through these things rather quickly, and they allow the party to heal and move on and go fast. Yes.

Corey 41:34

membership-based leadership parties, however, almost demand a certain length of time. Now, I

Zain 41:38

I don't think they demand

Corey 41:39

demand as much time as the Alberta Party has given, but – so

Corey 41:43

so let's talk – let's rewind a tiny bit. Let's go even to back when it was not just one member, one vote, but you would have the members – you'd

Corey 41:52

you'd have a membership sales deadline, right,

Corey 41:54

right, which is okay. You cancel any memberships after this. You would then have delegates selected. Then you would have delegates go to convention. And that all takes a fair bit of time.

Corey 42:02

But when we went to one member, one vote, we seemed to forget that the thing could be run a lot faster. And we still treated it as though there were all of these delegate and convention steps afterwards to come. And I think that political parties just need to do some sort of foundational rethinking of what it is they're trying to do here. because

Corey 42:20

like you know it's like any strategy sit down what are my objectives how

Corey 42:23

how am i going to accomplish these objectives long leadership contests do not accomplish the objectives that political parties have for them particularly political parties that are adrift

Corey 42:32

adrift right not not even political parties that should should be non-existent or are effectively non-existent but you know solid real political parties will often kind of coast for

Corey 42:44

eons as they're trying to determine what they should be doing. But really, all

Corey 42:48

all of this stuff,

Corey 42:50

like they're waiting for a moment that never happens. Leadership and the idea that somebody looks like a leader and can be a leader, that occurs when they're in the job, not when they're auditioning for the job. And you've got to move through these things in a faster fashion than we tend to lately.

Zain 43:04

Carter, I'm going to end on this segment with you. You know, you've told me in the past that But you feel like political leaders or political stars are not born, but they're created.

Zain 43:16

And I want to make sure, A, that you still believe that. And B, how do you apply that to the Alberta party situation? Because many people would feel like a fledgling party, a party that hasn't necessarily had much traction or success in about a decade, which I think is just a fair fact. As much as we've been ribbing it, I think that's fair. They haven't met their potential in that way for nearly a decade. OK, do you feel like political leaders for a party like that can be made and incubated and won over a long haul? Or do you feel like they have to find their, quote unquote, star candidate or star leader who wants to take this on? And that's the only way some traction is sought for for a party like the Alberta Party or any other. And I like the term you use, fledgling party or under, you know, underwhelming party that that's got ambitions in this country.

Carter 44:04

I think that they can be made. I think that the idea that there's going to be a leader that just emerges and is the perfect qualities and perfect person is relatively immature. I think that there's a much stronger likelihood that a brand can be established with the leader and the party that captures people's imaginations. This is where I think that people are failing. They're not thinking of themselves as

Carter 44:33

as a brand. I couldn't agree with Corey's assessment more about, you know, how we're thinking about leaderships. This is just the beginning of the branding exercise, not the end of the branding exercise. And the nine-month process that Alison Redford embarked upon, that was so destructive. Gary Marsh still pissed with me. I don't even know what I did wrong. I mean, all I did was beat you, Gary. All I did was beat you. You know, like, don't be angry. Don't go away angry. Just go away. you know

Carter 45:02

know like i i think that this is the problem though with the long with the long periods this is this is the opportunity is to get um do

Carter 45:10

do something shorter don't don't be divisive whoever wins wins and then everybody else gets to uh to build the team uh but but the long ones i think you start to see uh real schisms in the party and and i don't think they need to be fully formed when When they take the leadership, they need to be fully formed by the time they get to their 28 days or 35 days of the election campaign, when people really start to pay attention.

Zain 45:37

We're going to leave that segment there, move it on to our next segment. Our next segment, Not Red Enough. Guys, I want to go south of the border, which we haven't done for a while. And while it's not all peace and prosperity in the United States, they are, as Corey, I believe Carter mentioned, 100 times faster than us on vaccinations. Yeah, they were yesterday.

Zain 45:59

so they're doing okay in some fronts. But one interesting thread I want to pick up on is Liz Cheney from the Cheney dynasty, the congresswoman from Wyoming. She, of course, voted to impeach Donald Trump for the for the second time for inciting violence at the Capitol. She has now been censured by the Wyoming Republican Party. They overwhelmingly voted to censure her on Saturday in her role to to cast her vote. vote. Only eight of the 74-member state GOP Central Committee stood to oppose the censure in a vote that didn't proceed on a formal count. Corey, where do you kind of see this particular thread going? Because I think we, maybe I shouldn't say we, I find it interesting that one of the stalwarts of republicanism coming from a republican dynasty, the Cheney family dynasty, dynasty is facing such severe rhetoric and now, I don't know if you call a censure by your state GOP party a repercussion, but is facing some real blowback for her position. Do you feel like this is going to expand the scope of this sort of retribution that the current iteration of the GOP seems to be lashing out on a daily and weekly basis?

Corey 47:17

they are going through some stuff, that's for sure. And one of the things that you're seeing is that Republican conferences, parties in their states, whatever it is, are censoring the apostates,

Corey 47:29

apostates, the people who are going out and daring to say something other than the party line. You saw this, of course, in Arizona, where Cindy McCain, of all people, was censured by the Arizona Republican Party. And

Corey 47:41

And so now that is a tool that's on the table that if you dare defy fealty to the cult of Donald Trump, then that is considered an appropriate penalty. But, you know, Zane, in some ways, this is a perfect tie into that last segment, because this is really rooted in this notion of negative partisanship as well. So just like you might want to create a new political party to get out of that negative partisanship box and just knock them all down, because everyone's got a problem with them, but maybe nobody has a problem with a new political party. In the United States, politics

Corey 48:10

politics has become so defined about knocking down the other guy. If you fail

Corey 48:14

fail to swing at

Corey 48:15

at the other guy, you are considered to have betrayed your political party. Like, you know, the notion that you would do anything other than the thing that is worst for the Democrats in any given moment, that is what defines the Republican Party more than anything else right now. And I am – I'm not – the Democrats are not nearly as bad as that, but let's not kid ourselves. There's an awful lot of negative partisanship driving things on the Democratic side as well. And so the

Corey 48:43

longer this plays out and the more extreme this gets, like, you're not going to have, you

Corey 48:48

you know, Cheney's going forward. Because they'll realize there's just no advantage to it. One of the things that I found really fascinating is, yeah, it sure sounds like Wyoming's pissed. I can't remember which newspaper went and just interviewed people like crazy. Couldn't find anybody who was saying they supported Lyn Cheney's vote on this particular matter. And

Zain 49:05

by the way, just to add on that, like she won just a couple months ago with 70% of the vote in her district. She's now already had three Republican primary challengers ready to go at her in 2022. So sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you there. But just to contextualize the fact that this newspaper, no one could agree with her vote. vote it's also now seeming to perhaps have um this thread of more redder republicans wanting to to oust her in the in the in the upcoming race that she'll find herself in in just a couple years now

Corey 49:38

well yeah and i mean one of the things about being a representative is you're up for election every two years two years and that primary is starting in about a year in a real fashion so she may be in some real trouble um but when

Corey 49:50

when you look at where i was going to go with this zane is when you look Look at what happened to her leadership position. So there were some Republicans who said she should lose her – she's number three in the Republican conference in the House, right? But when people said she should lose her leadership position, they had a secret ballot, which they voted 145 to 61 to keep her, right? Because in that situation, everybody could actually say what they actually felt about this. And they thought, yeah, Lynne Cheney is fine. We like Lynne Cheney. She's a good leader. there.

Corey 50:22

that vote had been held out in the open, in this moment of negative partisanship, I think that she would have lost her leadership position for sure. And you see this whenever there is a vote out in the open, just when you see a vote like that.

Corey 50:35

And then you think about the fact that there was only like 10 Republicans who voted to impeach in the first place. And then you think about how very few Republicans are even willing to entertain convicting in the Senate based on some of the preliminary votes they've had like

Corey 50:48

like the republican party is

Corey 50:50

is terrified of an increasingly um aggressive base right now and um i i don't know the easy way out of this i mean at the end of the day it might end up that you've just got a q along q anon conference that's as big as any out there uh because the you know there there is just no brokering of anything short of a full-throated attack tax on democrats and full-throated defenses of donald trump right right now cory

Zain 51:15

cory i know you were chomping at the bit to get her name out but it's liz cheney not lynn cheney just yes that's right thank you just say no yeah no problem you

Zain 51:22

you know what i

Corey 51:24

i i was so distracted by googling and and seeing how many you know queries down you must have gone to find one that backed up your chomping at the bit when basically the first five all said champion was

Corey 51:35

was the right one yeah i don't

Zain 51:37

don't think that's true carter uh what do you think do you feel like this this is going to be a bigger issue. And what do you think of Corey's analysis? I think that's a very interesting point. Corey, you called it negative partisanship. Was that your term? Carter, do you believe that that's the assessment here that this, I

Zain 51:52

hate to call it this, but

Zain 51:54

maybe I will, and I'm going to get your reaction, this era of negative partisanship that we might be living in across both borders in some way, could impact what happens to Liz Cheney going going forward well

Carter 52:07

i think that it's asymmetrical part partisanship right i think that much of what's happening in the united states is asymmetrical i mean if you um look at what is happening within the democratic uh caucus um and we can pick the senator we can pick the um the house there's there's breadth there's width there's there's there's differences in opinions and they seem to be celebrated um no one is talking about kicking uh joe mansion out of the Democratic Party. No one's taking him to task. There's been no censures brought against him or Kyrsten Sinema or any of the others.

Carter 52:45

It's asymmetrical. And the reason is, is what Corey alluded to. They're in the place where they are battling a base that has got a religious fervor. And I think that that's the right terminology, a religious fervor for certain Democratic or were anti-democratic ideals. They have bought into Trumpism 100%. And that Trumpism continues to be more powerful than, you know, common sense, frankly.

Zain 53:17

Corey, jump on in.

Corey 53:19

I have never been convinced it's about Donald Trump and the support of Donald Trump. But

Corey 53:23

But Donald Trump is mean, he's caustic, he's cruel, he sticks it to the people that this Republican base hates. That's the negative partisanship I'm talking about there. And that's part of why Donald Trump became so beloved by a certain type of Republican over the years.

Corey 53:38

He doesn't stand for it. Donald Trump doesn't stand for anything. Take it back to why Donald Trump became popular in the first place. It's because he was by far the best at being shitty to Hillary Clinton. And that's really what this is all about right now.

Zain 53:51

We're going to leave that segment there. Moving on to our final segment, our over, under, and our lightning round. Stephen Carter, are you ready?

Carter 53:58

I am never ready and never less ready on Super Bowl Sunday. well

Zain 54:02

well it's it's funny that you mentioned that because after tonight and his performance overrated or underrated patrick mahomes carter you have been a big fan of the afc you know patrick mahomes the the star of the kansas city chiefs i know you followed his career up until this point but after tonight overrated underrated steven but steven steven Even just Mahomes,

Corey 54:26

Mahomes, you might know him as Mahones. Yeah,

Corey 54:29

that's how I pronounce it. Yeah.

Zain 54:32

you to get lost.

Carter 54:32

lost. I pronounce it the Kansas City way. Anyways, here's the thing. He's underrated because he's still got 20 years in front of him, whereas the other guy has only got all those years behind him. I mean, how long can the other guy continue? That's my big question. So I'd say he's underrated, and the other guy's overrated.

Zain 54:57

Okay, thank you, Carter.

Carter 54:57

Carter. What's his name again, the other guy?

Zain 54:59

Doesn't matter. Corey, overrated or underrated? Patrick Mahomes.

Zain 55:05

I didn't see the game, so

Zain 55:06

so I'm going to say overrated.

Zain 55:09

fantastic. Thank you, Corey. Corey, I'm going to stick with you. The political damage for the liberals, they are now, you know, one element we didn't talk about in the vaccine segment that we had, our check-in on vaccines, vaccines was the federal government refusing to release the contracts that they have with the vaccine distributors that they've signed. They're saying that they're contractually not able to release those. Other parts of the world have-ish certain parts being redacted, but the political damage here that you feel like might be up for grabs for the Trudeau government on a scale of 1 to 10, what do you think?

Corey 55:43

think it's going to be pretty minimal, but they should release least the contracts. This is getting a bit silly. Every jurisdiction who has a bad contract is now declaring that for commercial purposes, they can't release it. Here in Alberta,

Corey 55:55

you know, we spend $1.5 billion on a pipeline that can't be built anymore. And we can't release the details because of commercial contracts. The federal government all of a sudden can't

Corey 56:03

can't get vaccines to save our lives, literally. And the reason is there's a commercial contract. We can't show it to you.

Corey 56:10

And let's be real. We are, these are sovereign powers. They can, they can release these contracts. They can do that. That would be fine. And I think they would be doing a service to the good people of Canada if they did.

Zain 56:22

Carter, same question to you, the political damage on a one to 10 scale for the Trudeau government not releasing these vaccine contracts?

Carter 56:30

Well, I mean, as long as I'm not vaccinated, it's a 10. If I get vaccinated, it will quickly drop to a one.

Zain 56:38

And you feel like you feel like that's how Canadians think? I

Carter 56:41

do think that's how Canadians think. I think that the process right now is problematic. But if the process picks up and gets good, I think they have a couple more weeks to make it good. They don't have a couple more months.

Zain 56:54

Carter you've been taking quite a few swings on this episode on what Canadians think which used to be a segment on this podcast uh Stephen Carter and what Canadians think and then you were you were significantly off uh in a particular episode which I don't understand what you're talking about

Zain 57:07

no I'm always I know some of our listeners will remember the episode I I don't want to bring it up because I know it's a source source spot for Corey but uh I I won't bring it up uh in this moment in time Carter I'm gonna I'm gonna stick with you on this one um over under on six the the impact of the leaked emails of Trudeau's staff. So as part of a report, we saw that the Trudeau government had some of their emails, you know, between Privy Council and the Prime Minister's office, I should say, reported in the media about the impact that adding details to particular COVID policy would have. What do you feel like the political impact over under on six will be of leaked emails, regardless of what they say, or not even leaked, but but but emails being exposed from the Prime Minister's office in the in the media?

Carter 57:55

Sometimes emails that are exposed are really damaging. I don't think these ones are I think that these ones could have been if they'd actually been followed, you know, like if there was a bunch of information that we'd been hidden. But I think that these ones were like, we could do this. And people were like, now we're not gonna do that. So I don't think it's particularly damaging. I think there are are lots of other types

Carter 58:16

types of emails like we

Carter 58:18

we should be in a society where you can give your advice via email and not have to worry about it going um you know being leaked or or in some fashion being foiped it just removes the ability to give really good advice that may be contrary to what the government wants to hear cory

Zain 58:36

cory same question to you the impact uh for the trudeau government on these on these emails over under on a six i

Corey 58:42

think it's under i agree with carter that we'd be in a different situation here if if everybody then piled on and said yeah sounds great let's hide things from canadians but the fact that that didn't happen minimizes the damage that could possibly occur here some bad judgment uh but um but

Corey 58:59

but uh it's not ultimately the kind of thing that's going to have a ton of legs in my opinion you

Zain 59:04

you know nova scotia uh elected their their next liberal leader, chosen former provincial forestry minister Ian Rankin as their next leader and future premier of Nova Scotia. He won in a three-person race with 52% of the vote on the second ballot. He's 37 years old. So the question that I have for you guys, very broadly and very simply, Corey, I'm going to start with you, overrated or underrated young people in politics?

Corey 59:34

uh i don't know is 37 even that young in politics i think it is grand scheme of things you have

Zain 59:39

have to be a premium

Carter 59:40

premium you used to think it was young now you're over that or no i guess you're not over yet oh

Corey 59:44

oh i am over that for

Corey 59:47

thanks for keeping count but um what

Carter 59:49

what did thomas jefferson achieved by your age right uh

Corey 59:52

uh an awful lot more than me but he was also a racist slave slave owners. So in some ways, I'm doing okay.

Zain 1:00:00

It's a low bar, but yeah,

Corey 1:00:04

Young people in politics, overrated, underrated.

Corey 1:00:07

is a nuanced question we've addressed in the past. I think that it is always important for, you

Corey 1:00:14

you know, the next generations to be involved in politics and to push forward the political conversation.

Zain 1:00:21

Carter, same question to you. young people in politics overrated or underrated?

Carter 1:00:27

I think that it's great to have young people in politics. I think that sometimes we give them a little bit more credit than they deserve. I think of Bernard Lord every time I think of young premiers. And it's always a little bit frustrating when a young person becomes a premier and then we

Carter 1:00:47

we endow them with all these amazing amazing capacities, and then they just kind of let us down. I think we should be as jaded towards young people as we are towards old people. They will let us down eventually.

Zain 1:01:03

Thank you, Carter, for your expose on the

Zain 1:01:06

the human condition. I really appreciate that. Carter, I'm going to stick with you for our final question. One of the, I shouldn't say more prominent, but more voluminous attacks against the Trudeau government right now has been our our lack of domestic production of the vaccine. It's been waged by O'Toole. It's been waged with a slightly less sharp elbow by Jagmeet Singh and the NDP. But it's catching steam, this argument that Canada doesn't domestically produce, which is why we're at the whims of the EU and why we're at the whims of global manufacturing. The potency of that political attack on a scale of 1 to 10, what do you think?

Carter 1:01:45

Well, I think it could have been really good coming from Singh. I think O'Toole is, of course, hampered by the fact that it was Harper that kind of allowed it to disappear under his watch. And if I were Singh, I'd be saying, you know, obviously the conservatives are going to get rid of it. That's why we don't want the conservatives, but the liberals will never bring it back.

Carter 1:02:03

And that's why we don't want the liberals. That's why you need a party that actually understands why public intervention into the health care market. Forget it. This isn't about the

Carter 1:02:12

the business environment. This is about having the capacity to take care of Canadians here at home. And

Carter 1:02:19

And that's why having public ownership is so important.

Carter 1:02:21

And by the way, I mentioned my long-term care initiative that puts Canadian residents

Carter 1:02:26

residents in long-term care first. You know, like, I just think that he's, like, he forgets that he needs to connect things to human beings. And this is one, again, another one that he could have connected to human beings that Singh has kind of whiffed on.

Zain 1:02:40

Corey, I'm going to go to you for the final question. One to 10, the political potency of the attack on the lack of domestic vaccine production here in Canada?

Corey 1:02:51

It's either an eight or a two, Zane. It just depends on how the next couple of weeks go.

Zain 1:02:57

That's good. We should have a Corey Hogan soundboard so we can just play that version of the response. It's only an

Zain 1:03:03

eight or a two? It's either

Zain 1:03:05

Yeah. See, you know what Carter does? He comes out hot. He's wrong 80% of the time. Never

Carter 1:03:11

was the last time I was wrong? I've never been wrong. I don't know. So, like, Corey

Carter 1:03:14

give you the 19 time stamps on this episode after we record. I mean, I'm always right. What is this always wrong thing? So

Zain 1:03:24

We'll leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 914 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velji. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we'll see you next time.

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