Transcript
Zain
0:02
This is the strategist episode 804. My name is Zain Velji with me as always Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, how are you? Did you see how I did not forget your names this time?
Corey
0:12
That was really nice of you. That's about the only thing that's gone right this week, I think.
Zain
0:18
You're not even going to give me a short respite before we have to talk about the stuff we have to talk about? Like none?
Corey
0:26
i don't know i mean it it feels like uh uh
Corey
0:30
uh it's small this is not a moment for small talk we're at a very interesting time well have you podcast should we just end it right now yeah
Zain
0:40
for tuning in thank
Zain
0:42
thank you uh that's a wrap on episode 804 we've
Zain
0:46
we've been shut down by cory uh
Zain
0:48
uh yeah it is a weird week man like before we get into it like i
Zain
0:55
and that's in fact i'm going to start the next segment which is i don't know but it's been a very strange week
Corey
1:02
it's it's been nuts the the
Corey
1:04
the speed at which events are unfolding is really tough every night i think i have gone to bed after reading three hours of news that give me crippling anxiety i mean I mean, in general, I have a mixture of emotions about this. I think almost everybody does. There's obviously the outrage at the fundamental injustice of George Floyd's death. I mean, killing somebody by putting your knee on their neck is next level horrible. Then there is, of course, that anxiety. There's concern for what's going to happen next. There's kind of an underlying guilt about what's happened to bring us to this point and kind
Corey
1:38
kind of all of our complacency in it. And it's really tough, man. I think, you
Corey
1:44
you know, it's not the kind of thing that naturally lends itself to our normal podcast shenanigans, but these
Corey
1:51
these are big problems and they're not just America's problems, they're Canada's problems too.
Corey
1:57
it's just such a reminder, you know, when you look at what's happening right now, and I'm not claiming that it was ever a
Corey
2:03
a perfect world before, but you are reminded that progress is forward's march is not assured, right? Right. Progress is not time zero. And it does feel like we're backsliding here. It feels as though what
Corey
2:16
what was never a great relationship
Corey
2:18
relationship with race in the United States or again in Canada has become a little dicier as we've layered on social media and lunatic presidents and all of that. And, you
Corey
2:28
you know, this more just equal future I used to take for granted in the 90s.
Corey
2:33
It's not just going to happen. We've got to commit to bringing it about. And that is tough. you know we've got to turn commitment into action and i don't know how you talk about these things without sounding kind of trite
Corey
2:42
trite or basic or uh on the other side how you how you don't do it in such a way that uh that
Corey
2:52
acknowledges the fact that none of us have hands clean in this matter yeah
Zain
2:56
yeah and cory i'm just going to take your comments and shoehorn it into this first segment which i called permeating from minnesota and carter i want to go to you on this You know, part
Zain
3:05
part of part of having this discussion is
Zain
3:08
that it's really sensitive, right? Like, and a lot of us are just trying to figure out what our role is, right? Like, we stand here as a South Asian male, Muslim male, two white dudes, I don't really care, you guys are just in the white dudes category. But like, what, you
Zain
3:24
know, the question I think we had, and, you know, for those who've listened to our podcast for a long time, one of our hallmarks is we don't discuss the show, we don't edit the show. We just go right into it. I'd say this is one of the few episodes where we texted each other during this week to be like, how
Zain
3:40
how do we talk about this? What do we talk about? So, Carter, and
Zain
3:43
and I want to acknowledge that privilege up front that we that we have discussing this situation. But throw it over to you for your thoughts.
Carter
3:49
You know, it's amazing. My daughter came down downstairs.
Carter
3:52
downstairs. She's a first
Carter
3:54
first year university student. She's aware
Carter
3:56
aware of the world following what's going on. She came downstairs last night to ask me about, you know, and she's
Carter
4:01
she's used to me having a staggering
Carter
4:03
staggering overconfidence in my ability to state what the hell is happening in the world.
Carter
4:11
I just don't have any confidence on what's
Carter
4:13
what's happening. I think I can see why it's happening. I don't know where
Carter
4:18
where it's going. I am confused. I'm concerned.
Carter
4:23
I'm anxious. I've got a rolling
Carter
4:26
pit in my stomach.
Carter
4:29
absolutely unfamiliar. And actually, the last time I remember feeling this bad about
Carter
4:34
about something that was happening in the United States was election night in 2016.
Carter
4:39
And I think the three of us were texting back and forth, you know, what's, and, you know, trying to cling to the last possible
Carter
4:46
possible hope that this was going to be avoided.
Carter
4:51
And we felt that this was going to be bad.
Carter
4:54
It is bad. But, you
Carter
4:57
you know, it is not allowing us to what Corey was saying earlier about all of us being guilty in this battle. It is not allowing us to
Carter
5:04
to ignore our own guilt in this situation. We are all guilty in it. And trying
Carter
5:11
trying to figure our way out means that we must stand up
Carter
5:15
up and recognize our guilt. And we're not going to do that by reading
Carter
5:21
reading Rex Murphy in the National Post. We have to stand
Carter
5:24
stand up and and admit our complicity, admit that as
Carter
5:30
we are human, we are fallible. And as you know, as fallible humans, we we
Carter
5:36
we tend towards racist and we
Carter
5:39
we need to recognize that and address that in everyday interaction. And it's hard.
Zain
5:44
Carter, Corey, I want to go to you in a second, but I want to pick something up that you just put down, Carter, which is your anxiety. I don't
Zain
5:51
don't want to make this a therapy session, but in some ways it kind of is. Like, what are you anxious about? Like, explain to me where that anxiety comes from.
Carter
5:59
the anxiety comes from not knowing how this ends.
Carter
6:03
Politics is usually very static,
Carter
6:06
The truth of the matter is the next party that gets elected to be the governing party of Canada will not differ the country of Canada that much. We
Carter
6:15
We like to play this game where
Carter
6:17
the liberals are so much different than the conservatives, right? And the conservatives are different than the progressive conservatives. Well, they
Carter
6:23
they are, but they're playing around a very, very small segment
Carter
6:26
segment of the total governance structure. What
Carter
6:30
we're seeing right now is
Carter
6:31
is the undermining of the norm.
Carter
6:34
George W. Bush was
Carter
6:35
was the worst president ever. But in the end, he really wasn't that bad. He
Carter
6:40
He didn't undermine the structures of government. He did not undermine that which holds the republic together. And
Carter
6:47
we are seeing so many norms broken right now that
Carter
6:52
when you take the Justice Department and break it apart and
Carter
6:56
and have the FBI start to investigate its own members, and when you have the Justice Department dropping charges against the president's cronies, that
Carter
7:07
that is a fundamental undermining of that which we have come to know. No, it wouldn't have happened in
Carter
7:14
the George W. Bush presidency. It
Carter
7:17
It wouldn't have happened in the Obama presidency.
Carter
7:20
And we'd like to pretend that these things were corrupt. This is a whole different level of corruption that we see only with tin pot dictators.
Carter
7:30
And because of that,
Carter
7:33
know, I think that we know we've seen the path that takes us to tin pot dictators. We've seen it implemented before. And we've always said it can't happen in
Carter
7:40
in a country like the United States or a country like Canada, except
Carter
7:45
It can and it does. And that's what the problem is. That's why I'm anxious. You
Zain
7:49
know, Corey, this conversation we're having is rooted to what you introduced, which is the murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, which has kind of sparked these protests across the country, most of them largely peaceful. And there's also been this, I don't even know how to ask this, but like this conversation of expanding the scope beyond what is a story about the systemic anti-Black racism in the United States. And so how does it kind of sit with you when you're observing this conversation in the U.S. right now, whether from the angle of were you surprised that it's permeated in Canada, firstly, but secondly, as people try to expand the scope of this to all types of injustice and corruption, et cetera, where it's actually a very pinpointed thing we're discussing?
Corey
8:36
Well, it's the kindling,
Corey
8:38
kindling, but there was a whole pile of wood there. And I think, Carter,
Corey
8:42
Carter, George Bush was pretty bad if you happen to live in large swaths of the world, including, oh, I don't know, poor neighborhoods of New Orleans. And I don't think he gets a pass on this. I think the FBI should investigate its own members, keeps them from investigating a bunch of people who don't deserve to be investigated. But
Corey
9:00
listen, I guess my broader point here, not to be flip, is that these are long, long lived challenges. These have been going on for some time. And
Corey
9:09
And like in so many other things in politics and life in general, there is just sometimes that one moment that becomes totemic. totemic it becomes crystallizing and it tells you exactly why in the plainest simplest terms why you've got a problem and why action is needed now and to have a police officer a white police officer put his knee on the neck of a black man pleading
Corey
9:38
pleading for his life using the same words i can't breathe as have been dealt with in the past or not dealt with in the past more accurately and And just to remember that nothing has changed on that front, right? And that we've got a real problem here. I think it's a big part of why we are where we are right now. And there
Corey
10:01
there are no easy solutions to it if you happen to be a
Corey
10:06
a government, even a deeply concerned government, a government that would like to do something about it. Because we
Corey
10:11
we tend to put big faith in politicians to solve these problems, but you don't solve overnight a problem that has hundreds of years of history. it just doesn't happen. And
Corey
10:20
And that's a place.
Zain
10:22
Yeah, Carter, I want to pick up on that, which is this concept of governments and what they should be doing. Like, let's look at the US right now. You know, we're sitting here on Monday, Donald Trump today for a photo op brings out the National Guard, takes these peaceful protesters in Washington who are protesting, clears them off the streets using any force and means necessary.
Zain
10:43
What should governments be doing here? We clearly know that's not the answer. But what
Zain
10:47
what is their role in a to protest like this?
Carter
10:50
Well, my first answer is that it takes two to fight, right?
Carter
10:54
right? So if someone is angry and they are upset
Carter
10:58
upset and they want to fight and they want to lash out,
Carter
11:02
and I would argue with great reason. I mean, people should be angry.
Carter
11:07
People should be wanting to lash out.
Carter
11:11
Then it is incumbent upon government to give them that space to do that, which means
Carter
11:15
means defining and working with protesters to
Carter
11:21
be able to scream at
Carter
11:22
at the top of their lungs in a safe environment
Carter
11:25
environment for the protesters, for the police, and for general
Carter
11:28
general citizens. And that
Carter
11:31
that can be managed in
Carter
11:33
in many different ways, but it isn't managed by lining up on the other side of the street with your riot riot gear, rubber bullets, tear gas, that's
Carter
11:43
that's not how you
Carter
11:45
you de-escalate something. And the
Carter
11:48
police are civil servants that report to the civic governance structure or the state governance structure, or
Carter
11:55
or in some cases, the national governance structure. They
Carter
11:58
They need to be told by the politicians that lead them to
Carter
12:03
to enable the space for
Carter
12:07
for the screams from this community to be heard. And
Carter
12:15
no end that every time I see the
Carter
12:18
the police lining up to fight,
Carter
12:22
I know that it's going to lead to confrontation. Whereas when you watch those many, many, many different times,
Carter
12:26
times, and we've seen great examples of this in the videos, of
Carter
12:31
police forces lining up to march with the protesters, the
Carter
12:38
fire is still there, but
Carter
12:43
accelerant is taken away. way.
Carter
12:46
And that's what civic government and that's what municipal government and that's what state
Carter
12:50
state and national governments should be doing. And instead, what we're seeing is hard
Carter
12:55
hard ass, I'm going to fight bullies,
Carter
12:59
gangs that are that are fighting
Carter
13:03
fighting on as law enforcement. They're no different than any other bullies
Carter
13:06
bullies trying to bully their way in.
Carter
13:09
in. And I get very, very frustrated because that's That to me is the first step of the government process
Carter
13:16
reminder that governments lead these police services and governments need to set the terms of engagement.
Zain
13:24
Corey, you know, you've seen politics being played on from the inside. You've wore political hats in the past. Do you feel like in normal times, a situation like this, if you're dealing with it in the White House and you're not Donald Trump's administration, are you removing your political hat because this is just so above politics? politics uh i just want to get give people a sense like how these things kind of work uh in in normal times uh because right now we've got a president who's willing to combat willing to fight uh is probably relishing what's happening uh because he probably sees an upside with its distraction but in normal times are the political is the political hat off and you're dealing with this as a strict crisis well
Corey
14:04
well i think that you're confusing politics and political games and it's It's never a time beyond politics. I think it's such a stupid nonsense thing to say after a shooting. Oh, this is not the time for the politics. God forbid we actually do something about it. Oh, you know, there's a moment where there's riots in the street over the treatment of black men and women in the United States. Is this not the time to deal with this issue? Has this not brought it into relief? But
Corey
14:32
But it is definitely the time most administrations would put away the political games, right? It does not become about points. It becomes about politics in the small P sense where you are trying to navigate consensus and will and pull together a solution to a challenge here. And that involves reaching across the aisle, that involves bringing in stakeholders, and that involves just meeting the moment with its inverse. So if things are too hot, you become calm and rational. If these things are just too dead, you bring the heat, the excitement, And I
Corey
15:03
I think that's the big difference between George W. Bush and Donald Trump, by the way, because I don't give George W. Bush a pass on almost anything. But I will say this.
Corey
15:14
He didn't care enough, but he knew when he was supposed to try to care enough. And he knew when he had to kind of put those things aside and be president or play president, whatever you want to say there. And you don't solve a problem like this overnight, but that's not an excuse to do nothing or double down on
Corey
15:33
on the problem. You try. You try to be better. You try to improve, or at least that's what you normally would try to do. And when you hit a moment like this, when you hit this, just this total gut check, oh, my Lord, what do we do next? That's when, in a normal functioning democracy, the
Corey
15:50
the leader picks up the phone and calls the leader of the opposition and says, we got a real problem here. And I need to know that
Corey
15:56
that you and me can stand together and try to do the right thing here.
Corey
16:00
Does anybody believe Donald Trump would do that? Does anybody believe Donald Trump would call Joe Biden and say, Joe, this
Corey
16:06
this is a time when Americans need to see their leaders speaking with one voice towards our better angels? I just don't believe that for a moment. Instead, we have a, well, obviously today the guy cleared out the front
Corey
16:18
front of the White House and with tear gas, peaceful protesters and went to hold up Bible in front of a church. I mean, talk about fucking crazy. So.
Corey
16:26
So, yeah, I mean, Zane, to your point, you
Corey
16:28
you do normally see different things here. You see the drop of games, but that doesn't mean it's the end of politics.
Zain
16:32
Yeah, no, I like this. I like that that you went after me on this to make that distinction, because, Carter, I want to go to you. We talked about governments. What should governments in waiting, i.e. Joe Biden, to Corey's point, be doing right now? Right. We see him trying to penetrate winning election in November. He also wants to appear and probably is significantly more empathetic than his competitor. So how is one trying to strike that balance if I'm Joe Biden right now, i.e. president and waiting for many folks?
Carter
17:03
Well, this is going to sound crass, but there
Carter
17:06
there is nothing more important than Joe Biden winning in November because
Carter
17:10
because he needs to make sure that there's not a second Trump term.
Carter
17:14
term. Because a second Trump term means
Carter
17:17
means the further erosion of
Carter
17:19
of the government structures and forms that we have come, we
Carter
17:23
we now see we need, right? We need strong courts,
Carter
17:29
courts, we need strong processes to ensure that the Americans and North Americans and the world is safe in the future. And
Carter
17:39
so he has to win.
Carter
17:42
what he's doing, I think, is actually really good. You know, he's going out and meeting with people. He's listening. I mean, if there's one word that should govern our action through
Carter
17:52
through all of this, it is listen.
Carter
17:54
And I am trying to hear that which is being said. And I want to give everybody the opportunity to say it as loudly as possible. And the only, well, not the only, but the political leader that I see that is actually trying
Carter
18:05
trying to do that is Joe Biden.
Carter
18:09
he could try not to say stupid things more.
Carter
18:11
more. That would be helpful. I mean, him
Carter
18:15
saying that, you know, black voters that aren't going to vote for him probably
Carter
18:17
probably aren't really black,
Carter
18:19
not helping, not helping much. Now, that was largely forgotten because
Carter
18:24
of circumstances, and I think we're lucky that way, but Joe
Carter
18:30
may not be rescued by circumstances in
Carter
18:34
So there's two things. Get out there and listen, number
Carter
18:36
number one. Number two is
Carter
18:38
is please God, Joe, please
Carter
18:40
please listen to us all here.
Carter
18:43
Don't say something stupid. stupid.
Carter
18:45
The folksy Uncle Joe stuff is maybe
Carter
18:49
maybe cute in times where there's not a crisis, but this is it, man. America's on fire and you can't be Uncle Joe. You
Carter
18:55
You got to be the vice president of the United States wanting to be the president of the United States. Corey,
Zain
19:00
Corey, to you in a second, but Carter, do you feel like a gaffe right now by Joe Biden if he tries to utilize this moment, lean into this moment? Do you think a gaffe is exponentially worse? It's exponentially more bruising than it would be last week when these protests weren't going on?
Carter
19:17
God, I don't know. I mean, Trump's looking so bad right now. Trump looks so bad. And the people who like,
Carter
19:24
so Hillary's, the problem with Hillary in 2016 is that people just simply could
Carter
19:28
could not hold their noses and vote for her.
Carter
19:31
In really key states, they couldn't put
Carter
19:34
put the clothespin on their nose and walk into the voting booth and choose Hillary Clinton.
Carter
19:41
I mean, mean i struggle with it i i don't know how people aren't applying the clothespin even
Carter
19:45
even if something comes
Carter
19:47
comes stupid out of joe biden's mouth i mean you're seeing almost instant forgiveness for
Carter
19:52
for a litany of gaps that has started from the day he launched his campaign until
Carter
19:58
uh well he's been pretty good for like four
Carter
20:02
uh i'm not sure four
Carter
20:03
four days from the recording of this podcast he won't have said something stupid again but i think that we're going to be pretty forgiving
Carter
20:09
because we need to be.
Zain
20:11
Corey, same question to you in the sense of, you know, this distinction you've mentioned, I really like this
Zain
20:17
this concept of political games and politics. It's clear, but it's also porous, that line. So if you're Joe Biden right now, what are you trying to do to like ensure you're in the politics category, but not so much in the political games category? Also knowing to Carter's point that it all becomes irrelevant if you don't win in November, which might mean you may need to play a little bit of political games heading into this what's the balance look like look
Corey
20:42
look i'm i i think lucky for joe biden doing the right thing is also the politic thing at this moment i don't i don't buy steven's argument that the most important thing that joe biden needs to do is win the most important thing is not electing joe biden that's just such a circular argument how
Corey
20:59
the end yeah for
Zain
21:02
your for intellectual in equals
Zain
21:05
Inequals? Is that a word? I don't even know if that's a word. Disequals? Subequals? Let's go with it. Let's go with it. For those who don't understand, Corey, why is that a circular argument? Lay it out for us. Well,
Corey
21:15
the ends justify the means, but the ends is the means in this case. We're talking about civic fabric. We're talking about living in a society where there are rules and that we follow these norms. And if you're saying, oh, you know what? Screw them. This is not the time to come together as a nation. This is the time to kick Trump's ass. That's dumb. That's really dumb to me because all you're doing is you're perpetuating what is a pretty broken system to begin with in the United States. What needs to happen right now is Joe Biden needs to turn the other cheek, pull some of that, you know, that Jesus stuff that I remember reading about when I was in Sunday school. It is time for Americans to say,
Corey
21:59
you know what, we'll get back to this. It's a long way to November. But for right now, Joe Biden needs to work with Republicans willing to work with him, needs to make it known how important those norms are and how much he will support them. And I don't actually, frankly, care if it pays a lick of dividend right now or if it makes it more likely to be president. I think it makes it more likely whoever the next president is, is going to follow the rules of the game.
Corey
22:26
And that's more important.
Zain
22:28
But Carter, I just want to make sure you're clear on your point. You weren't arguing that that Biden play political games right now, right? Right. No,
Carter
22:35
I just think that Biden needs to put everything into the into
Carter
22:38
into the filter that he's still within a
Carter
22:43
few short months of Americans going to the polls. And he
Carter
22:47
he needs to really think of the
Carter
22:50
the politics of the work of the work that he's doing to ensure that he is still on track for 270, 270 because 270
Carter
22:57
270 electoral votes changes the model,
Carter
23:01
model, will at least modestly change the trajectory of the United States. Let us not pray for miracles, but it will be better under Joe Biden than
Carter
23:11
than it will be under Donald Trump. And I just don't think that, you
Zain
23:16
I mean, that's the lowest of bars. Just the
Carter
23:20
Susan Sarandon wanted Donald Trump to win so
Carter
23:23
so that the world would be on fire.
Carter
23:26
And, and, and it is, and
Zain
23:28
and I want to go to you in a second, Corey, but for those who are playing strategist bingo at home, you can just cross off Susan Sarandon.
Zain
23:37
listen, we try to get her on the show every single time, every week, and we every week, every week, we try and we finally done it. Corey, you want us to jump in there?
Corey
23:48
Yeah, listen, let's let's do a bit of a thought exercise here. And this is why Joe Biden winning is not the most important thing in the world. Joe Biden wins, and say the Republicans somehow both hold the Senate and do some damage in the House and governor races, you
Corey
24:03
you have not solved the problem. You have made something a little bit better. Certainly getting Trump out of the White House is kind of a bare minimum, but there are other versions that would be better. So imagine if Trump won, but Republicans
Corey
24:21
Republicans all of a sudden were willing to check him, right? They were willing to impeach him in this situation. They returned to those norms. They say this is unacceptable behavior. That would actually be a better outcome. And I'm not saying it's a more likely outcome, but
Corey
24:32
but it's why I fundamentally reject the idea that the most important thing that needs to happen is
Corey
24:37
is Joe Biden winning. The most important thing that needs to happen is America needs to return to
Corey
24:42
to its better ideals, maybe ideals it never fully lived up to, but ideals that at least it used to put on the side of buildings and pretend matter to them. And it's time to get back there.
Zain
24:53
Carter, I want to close this segment off with the line of questioning I asked earlier, but we really didn't get into, which is, are you surprised that this conversation has picked up so loudly and so publicly here in Canada? Are you surprised that the porousness of this story has been so
Zain
25:13
so loud here in Canada?
Carter
25:16
know i think that canada um picked
Carter
25:18
picked up the black lives matter movement
Carter
25:21
few years ago when it was when it was going through kind
Carter
25:25
kind of its most recent uh surge because obviously everything goes through peaks and valleys right and and it did okay in its last peak and valley and then we
Carter
25:33
we started to walk away from it because it became uh
Carter
25:37
uh it morphs everything morphs and we started interpreting it the wrong way or we misunderstand it and we walk
Carter
25:44
walk away from it.
Carter
25:45
Canada was very interested in it the first time and then we walked away.
Carter
25:52
But anytime the United States decides to do something like this, decides that this is important, we're going to have to wake up and pay attention.
Carter
26:02
are them. I mean, the Americans have an influence on Canada that
Carter
26:08
unlike any any other country
Carter
26:10
country influencing another country, I think, in the world, because
Carter
26:13
because it's singular, right?
Carter
26:16
Sweden's going to be influenced by countries surrounding it, by Great Britain, but, you know, it's going to be, it has multiple influences.
Carter
26:24
Canada is dominated by the United States. So what is happening in the United States is going to be more resonant with us. And we also have a similar history. When we colonized
Carter
26:37
colonized North America, it was we. It was us. We were the same. We were Great Britain and France, Spain, divvying up the Americas as though it was our own personal play toy. That
Carter
26:50
was our history. And the
Carter
26:52
the subjugation of the peoples that were here begins at that time. And we all share that burden.
Carter
27:03
the slavery burden in a different way than we do, but
Carter
27:07
but we still own the racism. And
Carter
27:11
the racism's there, the Black Lives movement, I'm not surprised we pick it up because it's foundational to who we are as a country and people need
Carter
27:19
need to recognize that. And that's one of the reasons I was so angry about Rex Murphy, right? I'm bringing up twice, twice I'm bringing up Rex because we
Carter
27:26
we are racist as ever, as
Carter
27:29
as anywhere here in Canada, because that's the natural human condition in
Zain
27:33
mind. We'll get into Rex Murphy in a second. And at some point, Carter, you'll have to tell us your tales during colonization when you were there. Corey, it
Zain
27:42
it was just too easy. Corey, same question to you. Were you surprised? Did this catch you off guard even a bit as to how much this conversation has permeated here in Canada? And then, as we'll talk about very shortly, kind of created its own waves of conversation around anti-Black racism and racism and diversity overall here in Canada?
Corey
28:05
I would say it's like a remix of a song that was insanely popular down South. And that has always sort of been the way things roll out here in Canada. Canada. When
Corey
28:14
When you talk about racism
Corey
28:16
racism in the United States, you talk about slavery during the, you know, war of American independence. There were black soldiers who fought on the loyalist side in return for promises of land in Canada, and they showed up here and we gave them really terrible land, right? I mean, like, it's just, it's, it's a version of the same prejudice is applied in different ways. So I am certainly not surprised that Black Lives Matters becomes an interpretation in Canada and is made relevant here because we have the same problems, right?
Corey
28:46
Eric Garner, George Floyd may not have been killed in Canada, but that
Corey
28:49
that same underlying pervasiveness,
Corey
28:51
pervasiveness, that racism that needs to be dealt with, no matter what Rex Murphy says, it exists here, right? And
Corey
28:58
And we struggle and we do a better job than America most of the time in dealing with these issues.
Corey
29:04
But that does not mean that they are not issues
Corey
29:06
issues here in Canada. And so, no, I'm not really really surprised. In some ways, I was waiting to see what the first version of that would be.
Corey
29:16
And I'm curious to see where it goes from here, because the asks will be different. There's no question about that.
Zain
29:22
Karthik, do you want to jump in on something before I move on?
Carter
29:24
I just think that the inclusion of the videos, just because we see so much of their media, and we're
Carter
29:31
we're seeing these videos everywhere.
Carter
29:33
The feeds that we're getting are stacked with it. And I think that Europeans
Carter
29:37
Europeans are seeing it as well. But I think we're seeing it.
Carter
29:42
And seeing these videos, you
Carter
29:44
you cannot help but be emotionally impacted.
Carter
29:49
that's what we needed. We needed a good kick in the ass.
Zain
29:52
All righty. We'll leave it there.
Zain
29:55
And on to our next segment. Our next segment, the borders are open to intolerance. Guys, I want to talk about, yes, he's been mentioned three times, maybe five by this point. I want to talk about Rex Murphy. uh which is something i have not said since episode four uh when when we thought
Zain
30:13
rex murphy uh had written his last column well 800 episodes later he has appeared again in post media so to fill everyone in rex murphy has written an opinion column with the headline i don't have it in front of me but something to the paraphrased extent of uh canada is not a racist country and the liberals not need to stop thinking that it is um of course the irony lost on anyone anyone, at least in my Twitter feed, saying that this is a white man talking about how Canada is not racist.
Zain
30:43
Guys, over to you first, Carter, just initial reactions on the fact that, of course, Rex Murphy wrote this on the heels of what's happening in the States, as we just discussed. But I want to actually get into not just what he wrote, but the platform that PostMedia provides him to write this. I have, for the last decade, half decade, just hated PostMedia viscerally for some of the things they've done. But this on the heels of what's happening in the States is probably one of the most irresponsible things I have seen. So that's my opinion. But Carter, I want to get your take.
Carter
31:15
Calgary Sun posted a tweet yesterday. I mean, there was a big rig driver, a gas, a tanker truck driver who drove into a crowd of protesters and the Sun led with he was beaten as
Carter
31:28
as though that was the fundamental part of the story. He tried to run run over the protesters with his tanker truck.
Carter
31:34
I think that if he tried to run over me and my friends and my family, I'd have beaten him too. The Sun and the Post Media Network is modeling Fox News because they see a lifeline
Carter
31:49
lifeline of economic opportunity, and their owners from the United States are saying, why don't you try this model? It's worked really well for us, and we're importing supporting um more
Carter
32:01
more racism more opportunities uh convicted felon conrad black fills their their their pages every fucking weekend what does conrad black have to say that has any intellectual worth to it at all nothing
Carter
32:17
nothing and and rex murphy how
Carter
32:20
how is he still i mean dude
Carter
32:22
dude stop stop talking. We're done. We're done.
Carter
32:27
I have no idea why we are forced to listen to these guys, except that it's a failed economic model that
Carter
32:36
is trying to be imported into this country because it's the last idea they have left.
Zain
32:43
The exuberance and confidence lacking from the first segment is now back for Stephen Carter. Corey, same question to you, right? Are you
Zain
32:52
you surprised at this point on PostMedia? Like, do you have any comments on them allowing this platform? You know, normally we could talk about any piece they let loose on any given week. But the circumstances, the context is just so unprecedented.
Zain
33:07
unprecedented. Like, are you surprised by this at all?
Corey
33:12
wonder how many of our listeners would never have come across this piece if we didn't mention it. I mean, post media is not deeply relevant with most demographics outside of Stephen Carter's. You know, it's who reads a newspaper? It is an older demographic. It it tends to be more conservative in its outlook.
Corey
33:33
And I'm sure they thought, hey, there's gold in them, their hills. We just need to put some of these opinions forward. Let's find Rex Murphy, a man who became relevant in the first place, I believe, if I'm not not mistaken and
Corey
33:43
i'm not joking here debating joey smallwood more
Corey
33:47
more than half a century ago this is this is just this is not a relevant human being and i i actually worry that we're giving him more relevance than he deserves here i don't know why anybody cares what rex murphy has to say about race relations i truly don't you
Zain
34:02
you know this this conversation makes me want to talk about another incident in in the last 24 hours more alberta specific but one of the founding members members of the UCP, Ed Amar, effectively going after Minister Ahmed Hussein on Twitter in a, not even a racist tirade, a racist one-liner. So congratulations on brevity, bro. But like, seriously, you
Zain
34:26
you know, and then takes down his Twitter account and then issues a long apology. Carter, like, is
Zain
34:31
is this changing the discourse? Like, you can see that I'm struggling with questions this week. And I think it's, I hope it's fine to admit that, But I'm just I'm just confounded by the situation here and some of the things that we're seeing. Like, what do you think of what Ed said last night?
Carter
34:49
Well, I think what we're seeing is that the right wing is desperately trying to put up a facade that we've never had to deal with this problem.
Carter
34:55
The racism is just absolutely not a thing that Canada has to deal with.
Carter
35:00
they say it loud enough and they say it often enough, then we're all going to believe it.
Carter
35:06
it's just not true. Right. Right. And so, Ed, what
Carter
35:09
what Ed was basically saying is don't bring that racism to Canada.
Carter
35:15
it doesn't exist. Well, that's
Carter
35:18
that's just a load of crap. I mean, we have to look no further than the way that we treat First Nations to see racism that is systemic and
Carter
35:25
and part of our culture.
Carter
35:28
And we don't address it. We don't look at it. And that's not even getting to the carding issues in Toronto. That's not getting to the fundamental and foundational issues of persons of color across our country. Immigrants, anytime you want to really rile a conservative, talk about immigration. It's not a logical response. It's a racist response. And we have been trying to push it underneath the carpet for as long as possible. And this situation makes it uncomfortable. uncomfortable and if it's uncomfortable for conservatives they don't want to talk about it that's what he tried to do he
Carter
36:05
he issued the lamest ass apology ever uh
Carter
36:08
uh and he should just stay off the platform um
Carter
36:11
um and uh maybe stay out of politics and
Corey
36:14
cory any thoughts i think that's that's
Corey
36:18
that's a lot extreme there's a bunch of things i take issue with there i mean first of all as we have all said off the top this is a weird thing we don't quite know how to deal with that we're pretty smart.
Corey
36:29
He screwed up. He fucked up. He fucked up badly. And his cleaning up was not any more elegant than that. I think it is going way too far to say, hey, it just turns out all conservatives are super racist when you talk about immigration. I think that's not helpful. That's my personal opinion about it. But I will say the thing that mostly confuses me about this entire matter is how
Corey
36:53
how or why edamar was the founding ucp chair uh so a little bit of background because you know he's not going to be known to most of our listeners outside of alberta
Corey
37:03
i mean he's a dude he lives in edmonton uh he ran for the liberals in edmonton castle downs i believe when when i was their campaign chair and
Corey
37:12
and then he all of a sudden ends up i think in the wild rose and then he's in the ucp but i i could be wrong about that and i'm sure i'm missing a a few steps in between he probably was
Corey
37:22
was a member of four other political parties in there as well i just i
Corey
37:26
i i mention all of this not because i think it's damning to switch political parties i mention this because i
Corey
37:32
i i stay in the same place my friend they just move around me um
Corey
37:37
the i i say this because that's
Corey
37:41
that's not normally the guy you make the chair of your party no
Carter
37:44
no for sure and
Corey
37:45
and this is exactly why like because somebody who's whose views are going to change and is rather uncontrolled in that fashion is going to bite you in the ass a bit later and then forever when he does these things. He is pointed to as founding chair of the UCP. I can only imagine how unhelpful that must be.
Carter
38:01
be. I can't imagine how Kenny responds to that. Well, tell me, how politically
Zain
38:06
politically unhelpful is this, Carter? Like, how bad is this for Kenny?
Carter
38:10
I mean, from my experience, there's never a tremendous love for party apparatus from a leader's office uh because the leader wants to be in charge and the party apparatus knows it's in charge so
Carter
38:22
you get a you get a a natural conflict and so um speculating
Carter
38:28
speculating i don't know for sure but i would i would venture to guess that the founding chairperson of uh the ucp was put in place so that he could be controlled um managed by the leader's office throwing it out there hypothetical um this
Carter
38:45
isn't controlled this doesn't help and i'm sure that kenny's office was the reason the tweet got deleted um and
Carter
38:55
the pathetic the pathetic communications response does strike me as a matt wolf special um
Carter
39:01
um it was inadequate incomplete and inconsequential and
Carter
39:05
and that says is matt wolf to me two
Corey
39:09
episodes in a row man yeah
Corey
39:13
cory you want to you want to finish on this
Zain
39:15
this or am i okay to move on yeah
Corey
39:17
yeah i don't know i i mean what what am i going to say i also feel like this is and i'm not trying to be shitty but this is punching down like edamar is not is
Corey
39:25
is not some like great titan of political power in alberta like
Corey
39:29
like let's just move on the
Corey
39:31
the guy the guy said something been dumb. His reaction was sad in eight different ways. And him
Corey
39:36
him and Rex Murphy can go cry into their beer together.
Zain
39:40
I want to shift it to someone who would not be punching down. We would if we if we hit would not be punching down on which is our prime minister.
Zain
39:48
And and just to close off this segment, Carter, I'll go back to you.
Zain
39:52
You know, Justin Trudeau was standing at the at the podium today during his daily press conference, you know, speaking against racism, talking about how Canada has systemic and casual racism problems. We need to be better. We need to do better. You know, classic Trudeau stuff we expect. Does his footing on this particular issue, addressing diversity, multiculturalism, racism, does he have to be careful here considering his, you know, blackface, brownface backstory that we all know about? Or can he go, you know, very hard on this issue, knowing that it's something that the liberals can own? How much Much of his personal past do you think he's taking into the calculus when speaking about these issues, especially now that they're so relevant in the zeitgeist?
Carter
40:37
I mean, I think that his personal past absolutely hurts him on this issue. But again, I'm informed by my daughter, who was not comforted by my words of wisdom or insight as we were going through this situation, but heard the prime minister's statement and
Carter
40:54
was comforted by the language and the tone and
Carter
40:57
and the presence of
Carter
40:59
of a leader saying
Carter
41:01
saying the right thing. And she needed it.
Carter
41:04
And even though he's an imperfect leader who did stupid things in the past, as we've discussed in the past, in this moment, what he said today, and I won't take it any further than my daughter my daughter needed to hear it uh and it
Carter
41:23
uh it landed so
Carter
41:24
so from my point of view that's
Carter
41:27
that's a success and yeah
Carter
41:29
yeah i mean he was an idiot a few times uh at a time when he shouldn't have been an idiot but it is um today's
Carter
41:37
today's words were were certainly impactful in that audience of one cory
Zain
41:41
cory is is is his past part of the political calculus when he speaks on this issue
Corey
41:48
I don't know how it couldn't be. I guess just being realistic about human beings and where they are. And I'm
Corey
41:55
I'm sure it raises the stakes for him in his own head. It certainly does raise the stakes for him, in my opinion. And so that is going to make him be more
Corey
42:05
more cautious. It will hopefully make him rise to the occasion and do better. There is the risk that he can overcompensate and over swing. So he'll have to keep that in check as well. It adds a layer of complexity and it ups the difficulty of this entire thing for him. There's no question about that. And he
Corey
42:22
he is really quite fortunate that he has such a terrible counterexample in the United States, because I actually don't think he needs to do a ton to hit the mark that Steven's daughter is looking for there. But you know, let's, let's aim for better than pass here let's let's see what we can do and uh you know we we're all talking about these issues uh
Corey
42:44
uh hopefully it won't be a situation by the way you were saying a carding problem in in toronto steven there's a big carding problem in edmonton as well um
Corey
42:56
there now's the time to deal with some of this stuff right now now is not the time to say it's it's too important to to you know it's too much of a moment let's let's strike while the iron's hot. Let's actually address some of these legitimate problems that we have. Let's talk about our challenge, you know, being good partners to First Nations across this country. Let's talk about our challenges with race and policing. Let's do it.
Zain
43:21
you were in the PMO right now advising the Prime Minister, would you be taking advantage of this moment right now to do that? Is that what I'm hearing you say?
Zain
43:29
Pushing for that advice?
Corey
43:32
well, look, I don't know about take advantage, only because it's going to be misinterpreted. I would say politics
Corey
43:39
politics is always about meeting what you want to do with what the public wants you to do. And this is a moment. And if you ever wanted to do something on this issue,
Corey
43:52
Justin Trudeau, this is when the conversion rate, your political capital conversion rate is the best. So now's the time to do it.
Zain
43:59
Carter, close us off. Same question, the advice you'd be giving if you were in the PMO right now.
Carter
44:03
You see the same things with guns.
Carter
44:05
You know, when the armed militia were standing on the state houses in their full body armor carrying their AK-15s, it
Carter
44:12
was a perfect time to start talking about making sure that we didn't have the same type of situations happening in Canada.
Carter
44:17
This is a time to stand up and try and make our society better by 10%. And Justin Trudeau needs to do that.
Zain
44:26
Okay, let's move it on to our next segment. Our next segment, the over, under, and the lightning round. Corey, first to you, give us a rating on a scale of 1 to 10. How perfect is the metaphor that the conservative leadership race will have socially distant leadership debates? The 1 to 10 on the perfection of the metaphor that that is what they have decided to do.
Corey
44:50
Oh, you know what? It's too on the nose. One thumb up, one thumb down from me. The thing is, I
Corey
44:58
don't know, what are you going to say? Yeah, I mean, there is constantly a challenge with social issues in the Conservative Party and whether they land with the public as a whole. It's probably for the best that it's not
Corey
45:11
not going to be as practical.
Zain
45:13
give us the ranking on the metaphor.
Carter
45:17
It's definitely a fail. It just doesn't fit for me. It doesn't resonate. it doesn't uh i
Carter
45:26
don't know i mean it's also time it's
Carter
45:28
it's hard to be heard man like they're they're struggling to be heard cory
Zain
45:33
cory to you over under on seven over under on seven uh the move by twitter and jack dorsey to censor trump's tweet uh singular and then i guess they added one more thereafter with a different sort of disclaimer but over under on seven of the strategy strategy of that communications move well
Corey
45:53
jack dorsey's kind of like a guy who burned down his neighborhood but decided just before it uh it actually seeped into the ground and made it so nothing could ever grow there again that he'd stop throwing gasoline around like i don't know how much credit i want to give this guy but
Corey
46:09
better late than never you know it's um it's really interesting to see that the counterpoint with uh with our friends at facebook there who have have decided it will just continue to be a grim free-for-all but i think that uh jack probably looked around and said holy
Corey
46:25
holy cow this is getting really bad and as we're all familiar with now there are certain protections in the united states that allow a social network to operate and not get sued to oblivion that's why they're all headquartered there right section 230 of the what
Corey
46:40
what What is it? The Digital Whatever
Corey
46:43
Whatever Act. I'm sure it'll come to me in a minute. But if that gets repealed, they're toast. If people decide more generally, this is a social ill and it's going to get into the political crossfires in a big way, they're toast. And well, I'm sure a lot of shareholders looked at it and said, oh, this isn't very good for Twitter. I think on net, it was probably the smart long
Corey
47:06
long-term value play for them. They had to deal with this problem because it was just getting too out of control you've got just a level of misinformation um out there that demands a response demands a political response and it does look like there's going to be a change in november another
Zain
47:23
another b plus from cory carter over under on seven for what twitter's done it
Carter
47:27
it was a d plus for me i you know it was a pass but not enough to advance to the next level um you
Carter
47:34
you know i mean twitter's
Carter
47:36
twitter's got this well the united states The social media libertarians,
Carter
47:42
there's this kind of idea that the right wants to portray these folks as liberals. They're not liberals. They're libertarians. They think that they
Carter
47:49
they really buy into the idea of unregulated free speech, and they've been given a pass that doesn't exist in the newspaper industry. So if you own a newspaper or a magazine or you publish something that is defamatory, incorrect, there's a consequence. ones.
Carter
48:05
These people aren't being treated as publishers. Facebook's not counted as a publisher in the same fashion that the post media is a publisher of the idiot Rex. This is fundamentally
Carter
48:21
fundamentally creating a challenge because they believe to their core that
Carter
48:28
free speech should not be in any way impinged. And it is creating
Carter
48:34
challenges because free speech does not equal true speech.
Carter
48:38
And there has to be honesty
Zain
48:44
Corey, over under on one, over under on one, the Facebook strategy for Mark Zuckerberg, which was ultimately like, we don't want to be arbiters of anything. Let the money flow. What do you think of their move? And how do you think it'll cost him?
Corey
48:58
I mean, I like them less every day, but their demographic is looking more like post medias every day. The challenge Facebook has right now is that it's not exactly lighting the world on fire with a demographic younger than, you
Corey
49:12
you know, probably yours saying.
Corey
49:15
Because, you know, those of us with a bunch of kids and whatnot use it to share photos of that. But beyond that, like, nobody's like, can't wait to get a Facebook account so that my aunt Karen can have, like,
Corey
49:26
like, you know, an eye on all of my social life. It's not happening. So I'm sure that he's making a calculation, Zuckerberg, I'm talking here, that it is better to kind of ride or die with this Republican view on what a social media network should be. but
Corey
49:43
you know maybe there's some sort of like libertarian philosophy built into this too this silicon valley ethos uh maybe it'll be the smart play in the long run because it keeps the republicans happier but uh it makes them not a political football but i'll tell you something facebook's play is
Corey
50:00
is only possible because twitter did what they did so if i'm in this broader silicon valley area as much as i might be staking out a difference i am privately thanking jack for standing up so that I didn't have to, because otherwise I do believe they would have run into the problem with the kind
Corey
50:16
of a broader repeal of the Communications Decency Act. I told you I'd remember eventually. Oh,
Zain
50:22
Oh, so proud of you. Carter, same question. Yeah,
Zain
50:26
little delayed. On one, Stephen Carter for Mark Zuckerberg.
Carter
50:30
It's an absolute failure. He doesn't seem to to be able to uh
Carter
50:36
move himself into what he you
Carter
50:38
know he didn't he didn't try and create any
Carter
50:40
any type of a network that fundamentally
Carter
50:42
fundamentally made the world better he tried to create an app that would rank you know allow
Carter
50:48
allow him to access chicks uh you know like that was that was his stated objective and
Corey
50:55
that and every rock and roll band that ever existed steven
Carter
50:58
the rock and roll bands at least gave us some decent music man like kiss you remember kiss they were really good you
Corey
51:06
you and rex murphy can go uh go hang out with ed in a bar and listen to your favorite kiss records but
Carter
51:14
but zuckerberg's put us in the shitter um you know he's allowed his his his platform to be taken over uh he's allowed it to uh you
Carter
51:24
progress from this really really interesting social engagement structure to a propaganda
Carter
51:29
propaganda machine. And he doesn't give a shit, does not give a shit. He just wants to make the money. And I don't know when one
Carter
51:38
one has all the money. Like what do
Carter
51:41
do you win when you leave with everything? Like he's
Carter
51:45
he's an absolute prick.
Zain
51:47
And Corey, last question. Great. Thank you, Carter.
Zain
51:51
Last question to you, Corey. Corey, I'll come back to you, Carter, for closing words. Hold on just one second. Corey, are you in or out for the Canadian media this week? How they've covered the protests in the U.S., how they've contextualized them to our country, in or out in the Canadian media this week?
Corey
52:05
I have no idea. Besides the Rex Murphy column, I've been glued to U.S. media. And I
Corey
52:11
that sense, I'm out. I guess I have to be because I literally did not tune in.
Corey
52:17
Carter, same question to you, in or out this week?
Carter
52:19
I would give him a 7 out of 10. Of course you would.
Carter
52:22
You know, I think they're a bit more balanced. I think that, you know, when I'm looking at global down in the States or, you know, we have some friends of ours that are down there, Jackson Proskow and Josh Wingrove are
Carter
52:33
down in the United States covering the protests in
Carter
52:36
in Washington. And they're
Carter
52:40
they're giving me a different perspective and that I, you know, I give them seven out of 10. It's not Josh Wingrove chasing a armed gunman through the House of Commons, but it's pretty close. So I'm pretty happy.
Zain
52:51
we'll leave it there and that's a wrap on episode 804 of the strategist my name is zane velgey with me as always cory hogan stephen carter and we'll see you next time