Episode 589: Bubblegum governance

SPEAKER_01 0:03

This is The Strategist, episode 589. My name is Zain Velji, with me as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan. Guys, last recording in our premium luxury studio. This

Carter 0:14

This is, it's awkward. I mean, people don't understand the studio setup and how we've been doing this for 589 episodes in basically the same spot. Yeah.

Carter 0:23

It's going to change. Yeah, I mean, huge capital injection,

Corey 0:27

you know, two years ago. Selling our five-story studio. That's

SPEAKER_01 0:33

stories. What we realized is that the podcast company we wanted to build really did not get built, Corey Hogan. No,

Corey 0:40

No, well, that wasn't even because of a lack of talent by our broadcasters, but we just didn't feel like uploading it. We recorded tons

SPEAKER_01 0:49

tons of podcasts. Tons of other shows have been recorded. We've had celebrities show up. But you know what? The uploading is what's really limited us. You know what, Corey? Corey, I think we need to talk about one thing that's really important, which is the Olympics are over. Because I know you cared a lot about the Olympics. That's true. Olympic basketball. Yeah. So what I have realized, Stephen, is that there is an audience of one who also cares about our basketball banter at the top of the show. So I am just appeasing to that one person.

Corey 1:16

Well, you're really kind of targeting narrowly, but I approve because I also like basketball. Please

Carter 1:21

Please allow me to bring my one fact. Yes,

Carter 1:24

Bring your one fact about Olympic basketball,

Carter 1:25

please. I think the U.S. team choosing to be on the yacht was probably the best decision they possibly could have made. It really focused them and allowed them to perform.

Corey 1:32

That's not even a very good fact. That's

Corey 1:34

for the Europe. Mellow. Mellow. We got Olympic Mellow again. Three gold

SPEAKER_01 1:38

gold medals, zero NBA championships. I like that 3-0 record. He's solid. He's solid. What else? What else are we going to do for our one fan? No, I like this. I'm milking this for all it's worth, Carter. This

Carter 1:48

This is what happens when people give us praise. We focus on things we shouldn't focus on. That's true. No more praise from the fans. As the host

SPEAKER_01 1:55

host of the show, I will give you now eight seconds to focus on the narrow interest of another one of our fans. Please go ahead. Anything you got? I don't pay attention to the fans. This is good. This is good. I like it. Okay. We have neglected, just like Carter neglects our fans, we have neglected federal politics, I think, for at least a few weeks now. Maybe a few months. Oh, it's

Corey 2:13

it's been a while.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

while. Yeah, it's been a while. So let's get back on the federal political bandwagon. We'll talk about what's up this summer, what has happened, and then what goes into the fall. So our first segment, wet, hot Canadian summer.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Guys, the federal cabinet is going to camp. They are in camp in Sudbury, Ontario. They are living in campus dorms. Stephen Carter, let's just see this. Before we get into the specifics of what a cabinet retreat looks like, you have been too organized and handled the outpouring of negativity

Carter 2:49

from the media. Tell

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Tell me, let's just start with the purpose of a retreat and then we'll go from your experiences there on in. The

Carter 2:57

The purpose of a retreat are basically the same reason why a large corporation would take their executives on a retreat. It's

Carter 3:03

It's to get everybody on the same page. Because in government, even like in a corporation, at least you have one goal, which is to make money for the shareholders. That's your primary objective. But then there's all these different ways that you can do that, right? Right. You can make money selling this widget or focusing on that widget or putting more money into marketing, but more more money in R&D. And every vice president wants that money. Well, in government, we're

Carter 3:26

we're even more diverse. Right. You've got education, you've got military, you've got all these different things that any government is putting their attention into. And every minister knows that their stuff is the most important. So what

Carter 3:39

what you do in the retreat is actually just try and get everybody on the same page. you're going to do the following things for the next session or the you know here's where our legislative agenda looks like here's where we want to go and you talk about it and you actually reach an agreement where that agreement is top down the

Carter 3:55

premier or the prime minister saying this is what's going to happen get yourselves on board or if it's a bottom-up structure where people are saying you know collectively this is how we decided that we're going to go in one one direction.

Carter 4:08

And neither one of those is necessarily exclusive of the other. You will see kind of hybrids also develop where people pay attention to their particular part of the dream and bring it in, you know, bring it into the, through the, through the, through

Carter 4:22

through the retreat where people get to see and discuss what the, what the overall objectives for the government should be. It's essential to have these though. It

Carter 4:30

It is absolutely essential because if you you don't have them people

Carter 4:35

people you know even if you have the the daily meetings and there are daily meetings of the cabinet ministers prior to question period right here's what we're going to say you get focused on the day instead

Carter 4:46

instead of focused on the goal and

Carter 4:47

and these retreats are all about making sure that you're focused on the goal steven

SPEAKER_01 4:51

steven back to you for a second before i go to your court why are they these retreats because these are not new right these have been happening for political political generations in a sense why are they such a lightning rod for for public outcry and controversy because

Carter 5:04

because the media are assholes sometimes um

Carter 5:07

um you know i mean we we ran we had a a retreat at the jasper park lodge i think we got a deal for like 120 bucks a night for for rooms right like it was it was it was off season it was between uh you know shoulder season so you're not paying a lot of money there's no one there right and we could no one wanting to be there sure it's It's in Alberta. You know, it was an Alberta cabinet. It was nice. You could go for walks. There was a nice feel to it. But we got it for like nothing. It's like $120 a night. That's cheap. Rent a hotel room somewhere. The media get pickup on it. It's at the Jasper Park Lodge, right? This is a first-class retreat. This is the top end. Corey probably shit on me on this.

Carter 5:49

almost certainly did. Corey does not take shit. Right? How dare they do this? I'll tell you something. This is nothing. This is nothing. The whole retreat cost is something like $25,000 or something ridiculous like that. That's not real money. We pretend that's real money when we start poking holes in the government or saying, how dare they spend taxpayers' funds this way. I'd rather have a government that was on agenda That knew where they were going And I'm pleased to invest Hell,

Carter 6:19

Hell, you know what, I'm giving Trudeau $50,000 To host his retreat Because it's a small investment Against a, how big is the federal government budget $140 billion $160 billion Give

Carter 6:32

Give me a break So

SPEAKER_01 6:34

So Corey, I know you're busy Actually drawing up a stencil That says $25,000 isn't real money Stephen Carter Instagram quote so we're gonna we're gonna get that put up shortly uh but same question to you hogan why why are these such a lightning rod of controversy for the public is it more than just the media being ass yeah it

Corey 6:53

is uh it's not why why is it a lightning rod have

Corey 6:58

have you ever been to a corporate retreat most corporations have retreats that have about you know half a day of real business uh then an evening of celebration uh the next morning you're hung over and

SPEAKER_01 7:09

and then the guy who's He's watched a YouTube video of Tony Robbins and thinks he's Tony Robbins and shows up to motivate you.

Corey 7:15

There's that, too. But the fact is a lot of corporate retreats end up being junkets, right? It becomes

Corey 7:20

almost like the Christmas party. You're going to go and get a little bit of business done. But for the most part, you're all going to hang out, have a good time, have a few drinks, have a few laughs. And the thing is, I think in the public's point of view, this

Corey 7:31

this is like throwing themselves a $25,000 Christmas party in the middle of the summer. And the media certainly feeds into that narrative. Do

Carter 7:41

buy that? Do I buy that that's how it comes off to a lot of people? No, do you buy that that's what actually happens? I mean, forget about how it comes off. No, I don't. Do you agree with the idea of pulling together your caucus or your cabinet and having a retreat? And

Carter 7:52

And keep in mind that I will go back and look for your caucus.

Corey 7:55

I'm not arguing against retreats. I'm

Carter 7:56

I'm asking him to tell him why for the public.

Corey 7:59

public. I think retreats are very valuable. I'd also point out that your corporate retreat doesn't have the national media following you around, So you're a little more free to do those stupid things. The government is actually there to get on the same page and do those things. But you're asking why the public may react to a retreat in that fashion. And that's why. Because when you think about corporate retreats, your first your first mental image isn't of shit getting done. Let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Fair enough. So, Corey, before I and I want to talk about opposition responses, but I'll ask you since you brought it up right now. Now, if you were leading the conservative strategy right now, would this be something you touch upon, you hammer on? What do you do with this whole retreat business?

Corey 8:43

Yeah, I mean, why not? It's free, right? It's like that space on the novelist board. The conservatives had a retreat earlier

Carter 8:49

earlier this summer, though. I mean, this is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

ridiculous. Carter, same question to you. You're leading the other side. Do you use retreats because of the way they're painted generally in people's minds? If you're leading the conservative strategy, are you honestly telling me that you wouldn't bang on this? This

Carter 9:02

This is one of the things that I get brought to me all the time. Let's bang on this. Let's bang on that. And I honestly won't do most of this stuff.

Carter 9:09

I won't do it. Take a step back. It's small ball. I won't touch it. It's crap. This is small ball. This is small ball. Can it be argued that this was – Corey, go ahead.

Carter 9:19

Look, small ball is fine if it plays into a narrative. And

Corey 9:21

And the reason why if you're the conservatives you would hit this ball is that there's this notion of Justin

Corey 9:29

Justin Trudeau, the dilettante. The guy who's just in it for the summer vacation and the good times. We've already had a summer of shirtless photos of Justin Trudeau. Why not play on that image of this lightweight, you know, party boy? I absolutely would play on this if I was the conservatives. It's absolutely on brand, I suppose, and on point. Framing it how Corey has Carter, are you still a no? Yeah,

Carter 9:51

Yeah, I think it's small ball. Really? I want my government to do this work.

Carter 9:55

You want your, at the same time, do they need to do it? Yeah, me too. Yeah, I don't think anyone's

Corey 9:58

anyone's arguing about that. There's two questions here. No,

Carter 10:01

This is why politics is turning into such a shit show. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Because people like you, Mr. Hogan, will take the cheap shot, even though you know that if you were in the government right now, you'd do the exact same thing. And I'm not taking that cheap shot anymore. I'm not doing it.

Corey 10:16

Okay, well, I guess Stephen Carter's running for office and announcing it here on this show.

Corey 10:21

He's going to do it in our new studio, which is also definitely going to get the campaign off. Well, I just cannot wait until the first time he jumps down someone's throat for an event so we can run the tape on this one. But the fact is, it happens. You're right. It sucks that we all do this and we jump down each other's throats. But on the other hand, to play devil's advocate to my own point, that it sucks. It's probably a good thing that when these retreats are being organized and planned, that everybody's first thought is, how is this going to look? Are we spending too much money? Let's do this right.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

right. And I think to that point, Carter, I'm going to go to you on this one because you want to say something. So regardless of what my question is, you're going to say it bridging and flagging. No, Carter, they have decided they as and we'll get to the specifics of this one. They, as the liberal cabinet, have decided to stay in campus dorms for the purpose of optics. Yay or nay on that?

Carter 11:15

I mean, Corey is absolutely right, which drives me more mindful of. Right. So so what's a reasonable level of expenditure? Right. This is and this is one of those things that we get into trouble. I'm sure I'm segueing to your next topic, right? So what's a reasonable expenditure? Is $520 for an Air Canada lounge upgrade a reasonable expenditure? Is staying in a fucking hotel instead of having to stay in a dorm a reasonable expenditure? I stay in a hotel, okay? If I'm traveling somewhere, I remember doing the Jim Prentice leadership campaign, and Susan Elliott was flying us all out to Ottawa to do something. thing we're doing some sort of a uh this is not this is not the recent

Carter 11:56

recent one this is when he ran for leader 2003 right he runs for leader of the progressive of the progressive conservatives at the time i'm

Carter 12:02

i'm flying out i

Carter 12:04

i say to susan you know i i have to have wi-fi right like there's certain things you have to have you have to and this is 2003 wi-fi is relatively new i have to have wireless internet she put us in the backwoods somewhere in some cheap ass bed and breakfast And

SPEAKER_01 12:21

And you guys lost. And we

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Correlation causation, Susan. There

Carter 12:26

There are certain things you need to have. I'm not sure that going to a college dorm for ministers of the crown is appropriate. I'd rather see them. I mean, sure, the Nakoda Conference Center in the Stony Nation. Let's go there. Let's go there. Let's do something different. I see what they're trying to do. I understand the keeping expenses low. I agree with Corey that someone somewhere is going through every optical look and saying, is this correct? Is this going to get us in trouble? Does it look like we're trying to do this on the cheap?

Carter 12:59

Fine, but don't take away the productivity. Don't go so cheap that you can't do the things that you need to do. Corey,

Corey 13:06

Corey, what do you make of the optics on this one? Well, from my point of view, the problem is not even that it's too cheap and that the ministers are worth more. It's the fact that it's like a dorm is where you go to pass out after a night of heavy drinking. It just plays into that narrative of summer camp, in my opinion. If you want these people to look like they're doing serious work, treat them like serious adults. And they are serious

Carter 13:27

serious people. Put them in a real hotel.

Corey 13:29

hotel. But I understand why they did it. They wanted to say cost-cutting was important. But these guys are ministers of the crown. I think we would all be very confused if the U.S. Cabinet went to summer camp and sat in a bunch of university dorms. But, you know, this is part of the Trudeau brand, and that's

SPEAKER_01 13:51

that's fine. Carter, to that point, to Corey's question, did they almost ultimately have to do this based on the brand that Justin Trudeau is trying to create an arc for? Did they have to go with a – like, my broader question, maybe I'll ask it this way. Are they putting themselves in a box from here on in based on the brand that their leader is trying to create?

Carter 14:12

Well, they certainly are putting themselves in a box for the next three years. And is that

Carter 14:15

that limiting and strategically advised from your vantage

Carter 14:17

I wouldn't have done it. I

Carter 14:19

I wouldn't have done it. I mean, you get the most flexibility in the years one, two of your mandate, right? After that, it just goes downhill because now everybody's starting to gear up for reelection. And, you know, I mean, maybe something that the conservatives wouldn't have cared about in year one, They have to care about in year three because now they're starting to build an election structure and trying to paint that brand even harder. I just think these

Carter 14:42

these are the – when we start playing small ball like this all the time, and it's almost all the time now that we're playing small ball, you're missing out on the bigger issues. Are we agreeing that everything is hunky-dory in every issue? No. Instead, we're taking the easy – the media want to cover these easy stories, so we give them these easily packaged stories. and it just it's debilitating our political structure cory

SPEAKER_01 15:06

cory i i don't want to be hyperbolic about this about staying in

SPEAKER_01 15:09

in dorms for a for retreat how even just was i know i know that's why i i'm just that was not even

Carter 15:13

even hyperbole okay hold

SPEAKER_01 15:17

it's a serious question here the one i asked carter right if you are putting yourself in this box for being non-conventional always looking at optics so seriously constantly are you putting increased pressure on yourself yourself as as a government and more specifically to you if you were in the position of advising them would you be like no we have to go mainstream on this because we're screwing our future selves is that am i thinking too much into this well you're

Corey 15:38

you're asking if thinking about more things is harder than thinking about less things of course it is i mean let's

Corey 15:44

not be so fucking patronizing that was about as patronizing

Carter 15:46

patronizing as i've seen him good

Corey 15:48

yeah and meanwhile steven is talking about dorms being the death of democracy so no

SPEAKER_01 15:53

no it's not a

Carter 15:54

a great segment it's about 17 orange juice it's about a 520 right and we'll talk about

Corey 15:59

about expenses in a second yeah yeah okay okay okay small ball no i think it's important that government is thinking about how money is spent and i well this is a very obnoxious exercise the fact of the matter is government puts together small meetings and small conferences all the time and if at the big stuff they're thinking about that that's going to trickle down to the small stuff and they're going to start taking care of our money better i don't have a big problem with the media being on top of them saying why are you you spending all of this what i do have a problem with is when the government uh essentially treats it entirely as a communications exercise where there's yes

Corey 16:32

and where they're staying and i think that's what they did in this case okay

SPEAKER_01 16:34

okay let's let's move on a bit to to some of the substance that's come out of here and and the main one for for the purpose of we're

Carter 16:40

we're not going to tie into the tragically hip before we move on oh we will in a second

SPEAKER_01 16:42

second don't worry about it we'll talk about we'll talk about if that's a burden or a blessing don't don't worry about it um let's talk talk about this minor cabinet can we even call it shuffle of sense it's just a little nudge the nudge the cabinet nudge so trudeau comes out of the dorms announces that he's got some new ras for some different floors ultimately uh but did

SPEAKER_01 17:03

did you get that okay good that's good listen

SPEAKER_01 17:05

listen why right now is my main question why it a retreat in in the middle of summer do you announce these small moves was this strategically advised just based on the timing I mean, Carter, I

Carter 17:18

mean, I think you why do you do anything in the summer? Right.

Carter 17:21

Right. You do stuff in the summer. So no one will notice and no one will care.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Isn't some of this noteworthy to have the first, you know, minority female rookie MP being your house leader? Like, I think that's no, not

Carter 17:29

not really. I mean, you're basically saying my bench is so weak. I'm going to go with this person to take over. I mean, I just it's

Carter 17:38

it's not a thing. No one cares about house leader.

Corey 17:41

Yeah. Does anybody care

Corey 17:43

care about my point? point it's it's like you know i i would call it like the canadian guinness book of world records stuff where we talk about like this is the largest statue in northeastern alberta that is made of copper you know when you start adding an awful lot of adjectives to the front we're

SPEAKER_01 17:57

we're the third largest egg monument it starts

Corey 17:59

starts it starts to feel less important and less fair enough fair enough and i well i think it's it's long past time somebody other than like a a male white

Corey 18:11

white male Weight male lawyer. Weight male lawyer had that job, right? But

Corey 18:15

But it's long past time, but that doesn't really matter.

Corey 18:18

What matters is why they had to do it. Yeah. And I think that's why it's in the middle of the summer, and that's why they kind of sheepishly went into it. And that's because they had a cabinet minister have to resign under some pretty dodgy circumstances.

Corey 18:34

Hunter Tutu leaving. And I

Corey 18:36

think beyond that, this is all still fallout, I guess is my point. Like, normally when we think about shuffles, there are good things to point to and bad things to point to. And I think clearly the government had a good thing to point to, but this is not good enough. And this is clearly just trying to cover.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Carter, do you accept the premise that this is fallout? And if that's the case, so maybe answer that first part first.

Carter 18:58

Well, I'm not going to call it fallout. I'm just going to call it, I mean, fallout makes it sound like it's so very, very negative. I think it's just this is the procedural changes that have to occur afterwards. I mean, sure, fallout. the fallout is it's

Carter 19:09

it's just the remaining dominoes falling it's another t-shirt fallout makes it sound like it's got some sort of nuclear component fallout

Corey 19:16

fallout equals procedural changes it does and these things have half-lives and we're not going to be talking about them at quite

SPEAKER_01 19:22

quite as much as we were so so in that regard to flip this a little bit on its head a a solid move for them to kind of wait and release the the second part of the hunter 2-2 resignation in in summer when no one cares i

Corey 19:34

i don't have enough details on why that happened or how that happened or the timelines and everything is still quite hazy around the specifics to begin with um less

Corey 19:44

certainly than it was a month ago i

Carter 19:45

i think it's interesting the way that we learned everything right he didn't he he didn't resign his position because of the the the uh the inappropriate relationship he resigned his position because of the uh you know he knew he entered uh you know a rehab facility right right everybody goes oh my i

Carter 20:03

hope you i hope you do okay in the rehab facility then he comes out of the rehab facility sometime later then we learn about the inappropriate relationship

Carter 20:11

that was in that was well managed i mean i'm sure the pmo knew about the

Carter 20:16

the inappropriate relationship at the same time as the alcohol problem um so it was for me it was well it was a well-managed issue where things proceeded down the steps this is the final step of that saga yeah

SPEAKER_01 20:28

yeah that's it well

SPEAKER_01 20:29

well one One particular element on this, and you may not have heard of it, so let's just make it up as we go, because that's what we

SPEAKER_01 20:35

As we do. As you do, Carter. Corey's just staring at me blankly, just afraid that he doesn't know what this is. That's fine. Stefan Dion gets removed from the committee that he used to chair on environment and energy. Now, we talked about Stefan Dion getting his current role in the ministership that he's in so that he could be as far away as possible. Should we be making anything of him getting replaced on this committee right now, Carter? I

Carter 20:59

think that, you know, there was a joke that there was, how many environment ministers do you need, right? You got Catherine McKenna, you've got Gerald Butts, and now you and Stefan Dion. Well, one of them's gone now. Now you're down to two. So that that just tells me, it

Carter 21:13

it tells me a lot, actually, it tells me that the people who are running that particular ministry now reside in the environment minister's office and the prime minister's office. And

Carter 21:22

And I do believe that we have more

Carter 21:24

more than one environment minister. I

SPEAKER_01 21:26

I do believe that. Driving that agenda. Corey, same question to you. Should we be making more than just what's written on paper with this issue?

Corey 21:34

Well, I know Stefan pretty well. And he is a passionate guy who has very clearly got an idea as to how things should be run. You also have to keep in mind he's a former leader of the Liberal Party. Don't just fall for the whole

Corey 21:46

whole caricature, the joke that was made of him by the conservatives, right? You think it's easy to make priorities, all of that. It would be very difficult to have a man who had that kind of experience, both environment and in the leadership, chairing that, if

Corey 22:01

he wasn't going to be calling the final shot. So I have no doubt that it will make things move a lot smoother with him out there. I'm not sure the outcomes will be any better because he is a very smart man and he knows this stuff. But certainly I could imagine him ruffling all

Corey 22:14

all the feathers in a meeting like that.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Final question on summer camp for the Liberal cabinet. Carter, I'll go to you. I was going to ask you a two-part question. The first one is in the sense of what is the goal internally within everyone there? And I think you've answered that for me, which is to get on the same page. So let's reverse engineer the other goal, which is if you are strategically advising them, saying you're going into this for a week, what is your goal coming out of the week for media and public consumption? Like what do you want the main thesis or takeaway to be as you leave summer camp heading into the fall? Ideally,

Carter 22:46

Ideally, you want a statement that says, this is what we're going to be talking about in the next four months. You want to give the media a cheat sheet that says, this is what's going to be important to you over the next little while. So tell them which ministers have got which priorities. Where are you going to go? Why are you going in that direction? What is the overarching theme that ties it all together? How are you approaching these things? You want to give them a compelling story

Carter 23:11

a sense as well. And then you can start to—so it's the first paragraph, or it's the first chapter of a book, right?

Carter 23:18

right? You're giving them the first chapter of a book, which is giving you, you know, like the Malcolm Gladwell book. If you read the first chapter, you pretty much got the whole thing, right? So you read the first chapter, and you understand now how it's going to go. And each chapter that unfolds subsequently is fitting within that first thing. No surprises. They know exactly what they're getting. Cabinet ministers know what they're getting. Opposition knows what they're getting. Now, the opposition's job is to rewrite the book. Sure. And we'll

SPEAKER_01 23:43

we'll get to that in the next phase, yeah. Everything

Carter 23:45

Everything is written in the first chapter, and you know exactly where you're going. Corey,

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Corey, reverse engineer the finish line for me. What does it look like if you're leading the strategic thinking behind this retreat? What do you want the takeaway to be at the end of this week?

Corey 23:58

So what's better than releasing bad news on a Friday? Releasing bad news on a Friday before a long weekend? What's better than releasing bad news on a Friday before a long weekend? releasing news on a friday before a long weekend before back to school so this is their ultimate reset button opportunity you can expect to hear a lot of things that will soften the ground anything they need to get out that's kind of not great like hey you can expect there'll be some belt tightening or we're gonna have to draw these four priorities or and you've already started to see this is where they do these minor pivots you think they they start you know i don't see it as the first chapter of the book i see it as the last chapter in the first book that's clearly a series So it sort of foreshadows what's happening in the next book. And it's making

Corey 24:40

making clear that some of these problems are still on the horizon, right? You've got to create that narrative tension almost.

Corey 24:46

they're going to illustrate some of the challenges ahead on the economy, on all of that before they go into the fall. And then everything they do in that lens will be relative to the position that they've set because that position will inherently be negative. That's why you do it this week.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

All righty. Let's move on to our next segment, Extending the Honeymoon, still on Federal. And I want to ask you, Stephen Carter, off the top, okay, let me give you a little bit of an outline of what we're going to do here. We'll talk about to see whether this honeymoon is still alive, and then I want to talk about what you guys have just alluded to, which is the fall playbook. But with that being said, is

SPEAKER_01 25:19

is the Trudeau honeymoon over? I've asked this question multiple times. Has it been over a long time ago? Is the goodwill extending? What is going on? what what is it are we redefining the concept oh my

Carter 25:32

my god the honeymoon continues obviously it continues right how do we know it continues oh because in a in a honeymoon you can show up and do the most meaningless gesture and have it have meaning right you bring your wife flower like a single red rose on a tuesday in the honeymoon phase and you hand it to her and she's like oh my god i love you so much and that is what we get oh my god trudeau shirtless i love it i love of him is the best and then the hugging of gordonny right yeah it's like oh my god every picture so canada it's like dude is canada that's america but that's okay because america has a photo op at every opportunity but whatever we'll be fine this is this is a honeymoon phase gone run amok it just continues and continues because you don't need substance you don't need anything thing that matters in a honeymoon phase it's superficial and it continues ad nauseum cory

SPEAKER_01 26:28

cory hogan first of all do you agree with with carter's analysis on that of

Carter 26:32

of course he does cory was cory was shaking his head and i never he loves people who can't

SPEAKER_01 26:36

can't see the show which is almost everyone except the three of us yeah most questions i ask cory hogan has a disgusted look on his face now it's either because of the subject matter but it's most likely because of me yeah this one i don't know were you were you shaking your head because you're frustrated that we're talking about this or is the honeymoon actually extending and you're frustrated about that is the honey like

SPEAKER_01 26:58

what what are we in

SPEAKER_01 26:59

like round 12 of

SPEAKER_01 27:00

of meta like yes

Corey 27:02

yes on trudeau and yes his relationship with trudeau i i

SPEAKER_01 27:06

i want i want to and i'm going to go a step deeper after you answer this question yeah

Corey 27:08

yeah i agree with steven that we're still seeing some pretty clear indications the honeymoon is on strong all right the photo bombing of the wedding is

Carter 27:17

is so good when

Corey 27:18

when you're out of the honeymoon it's

Corey 27:20

it's what a jerk put a damn shirt on you're

Carter 27:23

you're a g7 leader get your act together yeah exactly

Corey 27:25

exactly when you're in the honeymoon it's oh look at that and what does that say about canada we've got a prime minister who's so fit and so friendly and so accessible you got to keep in mind that was like his second shirtless event in a week yeah after jumping out of a cave without a shirt on it earlier in the the week like this is this is a picture of trudeau that doesn't do an awful lot for me but um

Corey 27:45

will it continue has this real changed everything or is this like a new definition of honeymoon i don't think so uh it's a long one sure but only

Corey 27:55

i think maybe arguably by recent standards even we're so used to the cycle flipping so quickly

SPEAKER_01 28:01

quickly but well part of the question is that we live live in this 24-hour news cycle world to have a honeymoon that is, Carter, potentially extending close to a year, heading into September. The question I want to ask you is, maybe this is going to be more of a substantive part of the conversation, Corey. I'm just letting you know. Oh, good. Good. Well, you're excited. Listen, does that ever stop you from giving us a monologue, whatever you feel like? Carter, we've always thought of this honeymoon period extended as long as you can because it's this sweet fruit that you get and you don't actually have an opportunity costs on the other side what are the negative ramifications we should be aware of heading into a year of i'm not going to say substance free but substance light trudeauism

Carter 28:44

are there negative ramifications of a honeymoon i'm trying to think of one i'm trying to think you know like i don't like a honeymoon this long but it's like would

Carter 28:52

would i take a honeymoon this long that's exactly my question i mean the honeymoon period for redford was remarkably short but it The first three and a half months, or probably actually four months now that I'm thinking about it, until we released a couple

Carter 29:06

couple of damning reports. But the honeymoon period was wonderful. I

Carter 29:11

I mean, we could do anything in the honeymoon period. Every MLA who came into our office was beholden to us. They needed our light in order to shine. They needed us to do anything that they wanted to do in their riding association. They wanted us to come and help with their fundraising.

Carter 29:30

It was wonderful. Honest

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Honest question, too. The thing with these honeymoons is that you don't know how long they're going to last.

Carter 29:36

No, and then they're

SPEAKER_01 29:36

they're over. Did you feel like you leveraged yours to the best of your ability? Looking back on knowing it was only three and a half months, would you have wanted to do more? We

Carter 29:44

We pushed through a piece of legislation, a .05 legislation that

Carter 29:48

we used our honeymoon period for. and I could have gotten that differently.

Carter 29:57

I wish I'd pushed through something

SPEAKER_01 30:01

harder. You wish you would have pushed through something harder even if that meant having that honeymoon end. Listen,

Carter 30:05

Listen, you know that my belief in politics is you get political capital to spend political capital. Yes. There's a lot of people who get political capital and sit on it and I would argue that Trudeau has got political capital right now and is sitting on it. He's doing nothing to spend it. That

Carter 30:21

to me. Is that

SPEAKER_01 30:21

that the case? Are they just following to build more

Corey 30:24

it's fine as long as you're still – if you've got some sort of capital creation plan, so to speak, with Trudeau's charm and whatnot, and he's going out and building it. But he should be spending it, and he should be doing harder things than he's doing, in my opinion. He's been very popular for a while. And, you know, ultimately, government should not be a romantic comedy. We're not here to be charmed by the guy. We're here to get stuff done. So good.

Corey 30:46

Yeah. Yeah, and look, I mean, when the passions cool down, so to speak, because they will, we won't love Justin Trudeau forever as a country.

Corey 30:55

We better be able to look back on those years and say he got stuff done.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Right. So, Corey, if you're in the position of advising him right now between, you know, let's just say you have two minds. Number one, you want to use this capital for something. But number two, if you have the opportunity to keep on building this honeymoon phase, would you still do that if you were the one advising him today? Or would you just say, now's the time to just do something, and if we lose a ton of it, that's fine, because that's what we built it for? Well,

Corey 31:21

Well, there's not a hard and fast math formula on how much you can get done and how much that's going to cost you. But I do think they should be probing the edges more. They should be pushing themselves and seeing where the pushback comes. And I'm not seeing that right now. I'm not seeing any kind of really hard government agenda at this point.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Carter, to Corey's point, he's talking about pushing the edges. How exactly does a government do that? we've heard this concept of test ballooning stuff but if you were right now trying to figure out if you're trudeau what's the big spike you go after how do you test the edges in terms of what that looks like well

Carter 31:54

well hang on a second okay

Carter 31:56

okay hang it on let's

Carter 31:59

let's move away from that first bit okay and let's move away from the idea that you have to actually be successful and build capital and let's think about what what my belief for the first two years of any government yeah is that that's the two years that you can actually do something that may be less popular, right? That maybe needs to be done. So you look at the NDP government in Alberta, right? They get elected and they do things, right? Some people will be pissed off by those things, but they are done and they have put them in the bank and now they can recover from those things and take us into the next election because they believe those things were right. Do I agree that those things were right? Some of them, others not so much. But the point is they believe that they were right. What has this Trudeau government done that they believed was right that needed to be put in place to undo the previous conservative legacy or the previous government's misuse or, you know, they railed against certain things when they were in opposition. But we're not seeing them undo these things as quickly as they need to if they're actually going to have impact because our cycles are shorter and shorter and shorter. Yeah.

Carter 33:03

You know, the conversation in the US is you get 100 days. The first 100 days in office are your most powerful days. We're not stuck in 100 days. We're stuck in a year or two. But what are they doing? You have to invest in what you need. And that's, that's

Carter 33:19

that's how you use these things. And they're not doing that. So my problem with

Carter 33:24

with this particular government is that it

Carter 33:27

it doesn't seem to know how to spend the capital.

Carter 33:30

It only seems to know how to build the capital or retain it. And that bothers me. So that's kind of where my head is. Corey,

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Corey, same question back to you, right? You're in this process of building capital right now. Let's transition into talking about, suppose

SPEAKER_01 33:43

suppose you were in charge right now. What are you spending this capital on? It's fall. You're heading into September. uh what are the policy planks that you want to use this capital on that may not be popular but in your vantage point are the right thing to do well

Corey 33:56

are always a good bet they're never that popular but they have to go up sometimes they've just been going down for too long and we need to rewrite our fiscal situation here other things are things around um legislation around law and order either way if you're going to make things uh either more liberal or more tightened up right uh the uh the marijuana thing i think they probably should have moved faster on but god knows there's so many international treaties yeah

Carter 34:22

yeah it's a hard thing it's a hard thing

Corey 34:24

thing to move fast on um but

Corey 34:26

but you know they have a really robust policy book that has everything from electoral reform uh to getting rid of c51 yeah uh to everything and they they have not moved particularly quickly on all of those things so would you have expected them to move faster i I would have expected that a lot of those things would be in the bank by now. I think that they were probably lulled by how popular they were. But this would have been an opportunity for the liberals, I think, to have gone – I mentioned this months ago. But I think what they probably should have done is gone very hard to the left of their

Corey 34:59

platform while the NDP was down. Try to push them out for all intents and purposes, at least for the conversation. And then pivot back towards the center to deal with the conservatives once the conservatives have a leader. I also think that you may have – and this is getting too cute by half probably – but if you were doing a more progressive agenda, that might have forced some sort of reactionary on the conservative side who was more to the right potentially, which would have set up a nice clash of civilizations for you down the road. But as it is right now, I mean this is bubblegum governance, right? This is not rocking my world and I don't think it should be rocking anybody's world. They should be doing much better, and we should be expecting a lot more from a government that came in with such a big change mandate.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

Bubblegum governance. I like it. Carter, to you, okay? So you've been on this side of being fortunate enough to have the opportunity to be chief of staff while you've experienced a honeymoon phase

Carter 35:56

phase for a premier.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

premier. On the other side, though, if you were trying to pop the balloon that is a honeymoon, what would you be doing? And I know we've talked broadly about this small ball stuff, but I want to transition this into the whole concept of what's come out right now with the liberals, which is these minor expense. I'm going to put this in the largest air quotes ever scandals, right? $520 for airport lounge. We've got $3,000 for a town car for a day. We've got $10,000 for Minister McKenna in Paris to have photographs taken of her and her staff. Is this the sort of stuff that pops this honeymoon bubble, the equity that they have built and kind of puts it to a stop?

Carter 36:35

Well, I mean, certainly it is taking them off of that message.

Carter 36:39

message. I'm not sure it pops the bubble. It fits the

Carter 36:42

the narrative. To Corey's point, right, it fits the narrative of who the liberals are entitled snobs, right? They're

Corey 36:48

They're the YOLO ministers, right?

Corey 36:50

You've got to get those pictures in Paris. You never know when you're going to be back. The YOLO ministers.

Carter 36:54

So whatever. I mean, sure. I'm not in love with any of those expenditures, right? I mean, I think government needs to spend money on things like the retreat. treat i'm not certain that they need to buy a 520 lounge access pass having been in the lounge

Carter 37:12

fucking deal right like let it go like it's not that great a thing oh

Corey 37:16

oh i disagree i love the lounge but yeah

Carter 37:18

yeah but you we can get detour

SPEAKER_01 37:20

guys i've never been in the lounge with

Carter 37:22

know i've never been

SPEAKER_01 37:23

been in the lodge so yeah you're not gonna give me a anyways the

Carter 37:30

think that this this reinforces existing brand uh so i don't think it's going to take them off the honeymoon i think that you don't hey no i think you're going to get some media attention on it but it all all these stories are three minutes long and then they're over i would try and hit something substantive

Carter 37:45

substantive that is off brand that takes them off i would find something in the ministry that they're not doing i mean one of the things that that defined and took us off of our game was actual issues that we had no answers for. We didn't have answers on children's services, right? We didn't have an answer. And so the NDP banged on us, right, and hit us on that type of stuff. We didn't have answers on queue jumping and doctor services and things like that that were actually important. And we got taken off of our honeymoon period. I would go after and try and find something actually substantive that this government has left on the table that enabled me to go in and say over the course of four or five or six weeks, this is wrong, why aren't you doing it? This is wrong, why aren't you doing it? And instead, this

Carter 38:37

this is my problem with small ball. You keep focusing on these small things that get you the immediate gratification of a huge Twitter uproar and media writing about it and it doesn't move the needle.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Corey, you've been, while Carter was chief of staff, you were on the other side for the liberals trying to, I mean, like every other party in the House, trying to figure out how you stop the honeymoon, however long it is. So academically first, right, from your point of view, what are the pieces needed to kind of stop a government in its tracks from experiencing this goodwill and this capital building phase?

Corey 39:09

The same as any relationship. It's when you fail to meet somebody's expectations, right? Right. When when you came in and there was an assumption you would do things one way and that's what you bought into and that's what you got excited about. And then something shatters the illusion that they are the perfect individual. It's it's like that moment when you're dating somebody and you're like, oh, wait. OK. Yeah. All right. They're not just this like character I put in my mind who's perfect. Right. And then you see if you can go from there. But the honeymoon is over at that point.

Corey 39:39

Now, I disagree with Stephen on the lounge pass, the stuff like this, because I think Justin Trudeau did an awful lot of work to try to say that old liberal entitlement is over. We're different now. We're changed. We're a new generation in such a literal sense. I am the son of a previous prime minister. And honestly, here's a free tip for Air Canada. You want to sell more lounge passes? Don't call it a lounge pass. sell a business traveler package that gives access to the room that you no longer call a lounge how does that sound yeah

Corey 40:15

because uh even in a business like a lounge the word lounge is not something that sounds like the canadian taxpayers should be paying for okay i

Corey 40:23

mean that's just so patently

Carter 40:24

patently obvious business meeting room access that

Corey 40:26

that that would be much better uh the three thousand dollars for the car i think is even less excusable personally that was so stupid i i have no idea Yeah, because it had the connection to the campaign to the

Corey 40:38

And so to that point that like cozy liberal entitlement, we're back in power. We now have the levers and it's our government, not your government, but it's our government is something that I think could be very damaging for the liberals. And I think you only need a couple of these stories to make it start to look like there's a there's a it's

Corey 40:55

it's a habit, right? There's a pattern of behavior and they have to be very, very careful in the next bit that it doesn't start to look like a pattern of behavior. Carter,

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Carter, you're tasked with writing key messages on how to defend these ad hoc expenses, these expenditures for the liberals. What are you kind of proposing that the liberals do? Justin Trudeau, I will say this, came out and said that this was a mistake with the car. But if this is a pattern that you're trying to stop, what is the key message that you're trying to construct that tries to nip this in the bud so you can extend on your key messages and the policies you want to talk about?

Carter 41:33

well i don't know i mean stop doing stupid things you know it's a policy sure

Carter 41:38

sure i mean um

Carter 41:41

like the question broadly

Carter 41:42

broadly he's just not jumping on any of the stuff that he that he's promised to do isn't that cory i mean isn't that the

Corey 41:50

the end game here my bigger thing is he's broken so many promises but

Carter 41:52

but yeah i mean

Corey 41:54

no long-time listener is going to be surprised that i'm disappointed with this government yeah

Carter 41:58

yeah i mean i'm i'm looking at this and saying well What is

Carter 42:02

is it you want to do? The only thing they seem to want to do is shut down Northern Gateway, which they've effectively done, avoid

Carter 42:09

avoid the other big questions, not change much in the way of the structures of government, tinker around the edges, get, you know, I

Carter 42:17

I mean, what have they done? I'm trying to even think of something that is substantive, that is a significant change from the last government. And there was big freaking questions on the table from the last government. I mean, sure, marijuana legalization is going to happen eventually. So I guess, you know, he's moving on something. But I would actually say I'm

Corey 42:35

I'm struggling with this government. Well, when you go back to the dorms next year, you want to have a good time. Yeah,

Carter 42:38

Yeah, for God's sake. You know, just fucking

SPEAKER_01 42:42

I don't care what

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Great. Thanks. I get that's where you're at. But on this specific matter, because, you know, we've talked previously on this show, Carter, and I'm surprised, to tell you the truth, that you felt like this was small ball because we've also said the phrase that it's the, what, $10 glass of orange juice that kills you. Is this not an extension of that same narrative? Well, I would argue

Corey 43:02

argue it is because it plays into a narrative. But I think where Stephen and I disagree is that I think that the liberals, part of why they came back was that they managed that entitlement argument. I think Stephen thinks it's just baked in, that people still see the liberals as entitled, so it's not going to hurt

Carter 43:17

hurt them. They see every government as entitled. That's true. At this stage, it's no longer brand specific. Bev Oda bought a $17 glass of horseshoes or 12 or whatever the fuck number it was. It doesn't even matter. What matters is that every government is entitled and they're all spending my taxation dollars badly. That's where the average person is and we can continue to build that narrative to the point where no one of any substance runs for us because everybody of any substance knows that sometimes you go to a hotel and you have to buy a $12 glass of orange juice.

Corey 43:45

it's annoying, but it's just the

Carter 43:46

the reality. That's just the way the world works. We're in private business now, kids. It's how much do you use when you go to the Royal York and you stay in the Royal York, which isn't the world's best hotel, but that's the one we stay in because we get our Fairmont points. How much does it cost? It costs a fucking fortune. You

SPEAKER_01 44:01

You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to just pause it here and I'm going to actually take all these snippets from Stephen Carter. $25,000 is nothing. We need to earn our Fairmont points and I'm just going to just make bumper stickers available for sale for any listeners who actually have the same worldview and we will ensure that you get it delivered express. price you pay for your own shipping i'm

Carter 44:21

i'm in the midst of this whole battle of how do we attract better candidates i've got a bigger fucking question than then how how come we got a 520 access pass i'm trying to find better politicians i'm trying to find people who actually want to stand for office there's this whole initiative in calgary i'm going to do a rant i'm doing a cory hogan rant right now do it

Carter 44:39

there's a whole initiative in calgary called the ask her initiative correct as though the only reason that stands between women and public service is because we We haven't asked enough women to run. And they ran a big spread in the newspaper yesterday. I

Carter 44:51

Right? Very excited because they've got six women running already for office. Now, there's something like 24 people in general. So we're only at 25%. So we haven't moved the fucking needle not one bit. And the people who are running aren't going to win.

Carter 45:06

They're not the, you know, all due respect to everybody who runs for office. Everybody should try it at least once. It's good for you. But they're

Carter 45:14

they're not the quality of people that will unseat an incumbent. They're not the type of people who will actually achieve something because they don't have the capacity to achieve something. So, wait, we've asked a whole bunch of people to run, but we're not actually doing anything. Give me better candidates and tell me how shitting down Phil Potts' throat because she spent $520 on an Air Canada lounge pass is going to help us attract somebody who's actually used to sitting in the goddamn lounge.

Corey 45:42

Hey, I mean. Okay. I have a lot to unpack there. Yeah, there's a tad

Corey 45:47

Few points I agree with. Sorry, a little bit of a rant. A few I don't agree with, yeah. Yeah, I would put myself in the Zane Velji category there. That was a bit of a mixed bag. Because you guys are afraid. You're

Carter 45:56

afraid to talk about this. To say that anything. To say what's

Corey 45:58

what's true. This show has gone off the rails. I think we can agree. I blame you,

Corey 46:02

This show went off the rails like 400 episodes ago. That's true. It's never gotten back on the rails. But, yeah,

Corey 46:08

yeah, I agree with you that it is very difficult to encourage somebody from a walk of life where you're used to not having your every moment scrutinized and determined relative to somebody who's making significantly less, whether or not that's appropriate, is a challenge. But, Stephen, I think that that's a symptom, not a cause, right? I mean, we do live in a very unequal world, and maybe we shouldn't be so blasé about that. Maybe we shouldn't say the solution to make a better world is that we're just all okay with inequality. Maybe that's not the solution I would go with. I understand why you would.

Carter 46:40

would. Sorry, I forgot that I was dealing with a socialist across the way. I

Carter 46:43

I just want people who've

Carter 46:45

who've actually—and success looks a million different ways. It does. There's a million different ways that success looks like. Hey, no one's arguing

Corey 46:50

arguing with you on

Corey 46:52

on that point. I agree.

Carter 46:53

Success— Success, but where I'm looking for is better candidates, candidates that are prepared to stand up and say this is where we should go. Trudeau is not representing that.

Carter 47:03

Trudeau is standing up and saying nothing, nothing.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

So wait, you're defending this. so back to my original question you're in the position to defend this right you're with trudeau on this side you're defending these expenditures what is your key message how are you doing this how am i doing this are you just using goodwill to be like fuck off like is that what it is is that what i'm hearing you

Carter 47:22

you say this now

Carter 47:24

now she's paid back the 3700 i think the 3700 was a real real problem because not because it would cost 3700 to get a car service it's because you gave gave the car service to your buddy i mean first it's very overpriced anybody who's been to toronto that's very overpriced and and secondly it was overpriced to your campaign volunteer right that's those are the two things whether you couple them together i don't mind the 520 lounge pass i i would have you know i would have probably done it differently but the 520 lounge lounge pass you

Carter 48:00

you got to go work somewhere yeah and i would have set up and said listen this gives me access to rooms that i can work in when i'm traveling and i'm trying to get work done 24 hours a day seven days a week for this government it's the health department it doesn't rest while i sit in the waiting room cory

SPEAKER_01 48:15

cory uh your response to

Corey 48:16

to carter's rather aggressive key message there's also food in there so you don't have to have your crackers and cold camembert you can just you know stock up before you get on the food sucks

Carter 48:25

sucks and you know that the food sucks oh my god Let's

SPEAKER_01 48:27

pick up the most elitist episode of The Strategist.

Carter 48:31

Corey knows that the food sucks. He goes in there for the beer and the beer only.

Corey 48:37

No, I mean, listen. What do you say? We don't have people jumping to be in public service. Yeah, that's true. People are mad because you see a lounge pass being spent, you know, money spent on. They may have a point. These are not mutually exclusive points that can be made. And I think that public servants do have to hold themselves to a higher standard. Ultimately, that's what makes it a bit of a sacrifice. I have a longstanding belief that nobody, if it is your best job ever, whether being in like the elected office or generally speaking in the bureaucracy, like you could not imagine a better job.

Corey 49:14

You're probably not the best candidate for the job. I mean, you should be driven a bit by this sense that it's a democracy. We should be chipping in. We should be doing our part. part yeah

Corey 49:21

and that doesn't mean that it's it can be the best paying job or it can be whatever but it shouldn't be like just

Corey 49:27

just a total home run in your life there is a bit of public sacrifice required there should be

Corey 49:31

be a degree of public and i think that giving up your lounge pass is a pretty small sacrifice so

Carter 49:37

you set me up for that i did that

SPEAKER_01 49:38

that was well done carter close us out on this segment on this if you are ron ambrose and the conservatives what are you looking forward to doing this fall, both on the offensive and on the defensive as well? What is your game plan in broad strokes heading into September? Well,

Carter 49:55

Well, I banged on Trudeau, and I'll bang on the Conservatives. I mean, if they continue to do small ball, I don't think they're going to achieve anything. They're in the midst of a leadership campaign, so the inclination sometimes is to leave the big issues for the leadership candidates. But I don't think they should play that way at all. I think they need to try and get this government out of its ridiculous honeymoon period. And the only way, I mean, I said it earlier, I'll say it again. The only way I know how to do it is to take a substantive issue and bang the shit out of it for four months until the Canadian public understand that it's important.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

Corey, you're advising Ron Ambrose and the Conservatives. What is their fall plan look like in your mind in broad strokes? Or what should it look like?

Corey 50:40

the lack of command and control in a leadership race where people can have a bunch of different opinions is going to be more uncomfortable territory for the conservatives than most so i do think because

SPEAKER_01 50:49

because of their history because of their history

Corey 50:50

history and their training and the even their supporters who want to see a bit more order uh right and also their tent is fairly broad after a decade in government yeah right uh you have the social conservatives that wrote up from the start many of which have already thrown their hat in the ring and you have uh people who are much more towards the middle would have been much more classically in the pc ilk so it's going to be a bumpy ride i think you need to set the foundation where that bumpy where the the turbulence is expected you're the if you're ron ambrose you're the pilot saying this

Corey 51:22

this is going to be interesting you know keep your seat belts fastened and sort of allow it to play out and try to make a show of it you know how we were talking about the democrats at their convention sort of allowing a certain amount of discord saying that's democracy it's messy they should probably take a similar approach they should talk about the conservatives being a strong enough party a big enough party to welcome diverse viewpoints let the chips fall where they may some canadians have unpopular views we're going to represent all canadians and uh ultimately i don't think they're going to elect some sort of retrograde social conservative and if they don't they can make it all part of the process and hopefully the healing can involve those people as well but if i'm ron ambrose all i'm doing is is sort of setting the foundation for for

Corey 52:03

for that chaos to come i think you embrace the chaos carter

SPEAKER_01 52:09

anything they what is their fall playbook look like same question broad strokes there's

Carter 52:14

there's still a federal ndp cory

SPEAKER_01 52:18

i'll start should have started with you yeah that would have been it we'll just we'll just edit it no we won't the broad strokes for the ndp federally what do they need to do to come this fall well

SPEAKER_01 52:27

well they're like the conservatives they They need to make themselves

SPEAKER_01 52:29

They have a long-delayed leadership contest.

Corey 52:31

And I think to the point of disappointment about Justin Trudeau's government, he has created an opening for them to get back up and say, this isn't what you thought you were electing.

Corey 52:41

promised one thing. You've been given another thing. This is the classic liberal bait and switch.

Corey 52:45

They have to be careful it doesn't come off as too angry. I think that if you're going to do that, you need to make sure that there's some substance to your arguments. You need to be putting forward the liberal policies, essentially. You know what I think would be kind of fun? For the NDP? Yeah, for the NDP

Corey 53:02

NDP is some of these policies that the liberals have already rejected, moving them as motions, as opposition motions, making the liberals vote against their own platform. That would be good.

Corey 53:12

Time in and time out throughout the fall. And

Carter 53:14

And the NDP have that available to them, whereas the conservatives really don't. Right? That's right. Yeah. You know, oppose these things in the election. The NDP can pick up on a number of these things and put them forward. and just bash the crap out of the Liberals.

Corey 53:27

Liberals. Oh, beat the tar out of them. Like, let's talk about Canada Post, right?

Corey 53:30

right? I mean, how easy is that?

Carter 53:32

Oh, don't make me start on a Canada Post rant. Let's move it to our final segment. Our final

SPEAKER_01 53:36

final segment are over under our lightning round. Stephen Carter, straight to you. I know you love these questions. Your one-word strategy. I'll give you up to four words, actually. Your four-word strategy. Four

SPEAKER_01 53:47

strategy. Maximum four-word strategy for the Liberals heading into the fall.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

Corey, maximum four-word strategy?

SPEAKER_01 53:59

Move. I like that he embraced the maximum. You know what? Hey,

SPEAKER_01 54:05

One issue, Corey, back to you. One issue that the Liberals should be addressing this fall that you feel like they won't.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

That should be part of their agenda for this fall. Well,

Corey 54:15

Well, I think Canada Post is going to be one of them. They're going to rag the puck on that forever. They're never going to give us our mailboxes back. I'm going to have to walk a block to my community mailbox forever. You

Carter 54:24

like your community mailbox. Why

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Why would they give that a thing? To meet your community. Carter, one policy or issue that the liberals should be addressing this fall that you think they will not?

Carter 54:36

I want to do

Carter 54:39

do something on security. I mean, it seems to me like they're moved on refugees, but they haven't moved on kind of the conservatives' model of building

Carter 54:47

building a secure immigration system that was too restrictive. And everybody, I can't remember the name of the bill escaping

Carter 54:54

escaping me at this particular moment, but the liberals voted for it, but they really opposed it.

Corey 54:59

it. The John Kerry style.

Carter 55:03

should go back and clean that up. They're not going to.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

Corey, your one word or maximum four word strategy for the NDP heading into this fall? uh

SPEAKER_01 55:11

uh find what unites you carter your maximum forward strategy for the ndp um

Carter 55:17

yeah actually do something again i guess cory

SPEAKER_01 55:21

cory same question max four words the conservatives fall uh

SPEAKER_01 55:26

uh buckle your seat belts i like

Corey 55:35

okay sorry i'm just hearing some beeping i mean mean you're asking us for three words and then you're confused no no i heard

SPEAKER_01 55:40

heard some beeping and i was like now i know why we're leaving the studio i totally understand why we're making an exit from the studio okay carter one to ten how well have the liberals handled this expense scandal

SPEAKER_01 55:54

six will the honeymoon be over by the one year anniversary of the election date i think so carter will it be over by the one year anniversary i would hope so final question Guys, this is the last episode in this studio. Your favorite episode that we've recorded in this studio. Corey, lay it on us. Which one was it? It

Corey 56:12

It was before your time, Zane. There was an episode that had me, Stephen, and Chester deconstructing the lead-up to Nenshi getting into the race, which

Corey 56:23

was awkward because Stephen hadn't told us at that point he was going to work for Nenshi. And seeing him tap dance around it and explained to us why this academic who nobody knew from northeast Calgary should be considered in the conversation while Chester and I were talking about the candidates that everyone was talking about, Kent Hare, Rick McIver and stuff, was interesting and with hindsight, too, very fascinating. Carter,

SPEAKER_01 56:44

Carter, as we leave our five-story studio for the final time, your favorite episode recorded at this place? Again,

Carter 56:50

Again, it was without you, Zane. It was the deconstruction of the 1997 elections. That was fascinating because, of course, I had predicted, wrongly, significant progressive conservative reconstruction and cory uh yeah very young at the time was was basically calling me an idiot and i was pretty pissed off because i was you're

Corey 57:14

you're being called an idiot by

Corey 57:15

a guy who is like 15 years old exactly

Corey 57:18

you know what the challenge there was that was your much more partisan days you were still like a pc diehard and people really don't really remember no they don't even cut the pc partisan that was a fun era in general you

Carter 57:29

you know it'd be really nice if Chester would let us release those fucking episodes.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

Chester is like the Beatles of the strategists. He just keeps them, hoards them. That's a wrap on episode 589 of the strategists. My name is Zane Velji. With me as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan, and we'll see you next time.

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