Transcript
Zain
0:01
This is The Strategist, episode 572. My name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan. Guys, how are you?
Zain
0:10
Okay, it's going to be one of those days. One of those days. Listen, you should be more excited because we have done it, Stephen. We have done it. Alberta now, the only province with an NDP government. How exciting. I
Carter
0:22
I got to tell you, if I had bet on this 10 years ago, I would have made a ton of money. The odds against this were so unbelievably minimal. Oh,
Zain
0:32
I would have made him... Almost as good as the odds that the Wizards would not make the playoffs. I think that's what I equate this to. Why are you hurting like that? I don't like that. That's just mean. We should probably do an entire episode on Manitoba. Should we not, Carter?
Carter
0:43
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, this has to be the same focus that we gave to Saskatchewan. Great.
Zain
0:47
Great. So we're done. Yeah. Well, look, that was an interesting election. It was an interesting election, but frankly... We're probably getting into
Corey
0:52
into the game a little too late to talk about that one. Yeah,
Zain
0:54
Yeah, we missed the boat. I blame Steven for that. I really do. But I guess there's other stuff to talk about, and I want to get into that. Corey, is there anything on top of your mind right now that you would want to talk about? I'm effectively writing the show as we go. Okay, well, yesterday, of course, the U.S.
Corey
1:06
primary in New York. Okay, we'll do some of that. Gave some life to some narratives there. We have in
Corey
1:12
in Alberta, the leader of the PCs lost their mind a bit, and the fallout from the budget in general. That's interesting. And, of course, Tom
Corey
1:21
Tom Mulcair being on a Quebec television show, I think. Maybe it was radio. I think it was television. Oh, it was TV. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Essentially suggesting that if the NDP convention had been in Toronto, he might still be leader. I
Zain
1:34
I like this. That sounds real fun. I'm just crowdsourcing the show now, Carter. That's where I've gotten to. I've effectively just asked you guys what you want to talk about. Well, let's start there. Let's start with that segment. The beard has no chill for Alberta.
Zain
1:45
Okay, so it's effectively Tom Mulcair on a French television show, glass of wine, talking talking casually about the fact that if his leadership vote were not held in Alberta, he may be or may have stood a chance to get through it. Stephen Carter, what do you say?
Carter
2:05
Thomas Mulcair apparently knows nothing about politics.
Carter
2:09
Thomas Mulcair can't do math. Thomas Mulcair. Okay, so every delegated convention has a similar location
Carter
2:15
location bias. Let's start with the premise. Is there a location bias? absolutely there's a great broad question
Zain
2:22
question let's start there i like that the
Carter
2:23
the location bias exists it will always exist and basically the location bias is it's easier to get there when you live in the same province or you live in the same city right so if you have a convention in downtown toronto with its 36 or whatever ridings immediately there right and then it grows bigger in the 905 and now all those people right there it's easy for them to get to the to the convention
Carter
2:48
absolutely but that's not why you choose to hold a convention in a certain place why do you choose
Zain
2:53
choose a certain place or another i want to actually get into this broad conversation because it's interesting to me well
Carter
2:57
well you remember at the preamble when you said that there's only one ndp government left yeah
Carter
3:02
okay that's why you hold it okay
Carter
3:05
this is this is the you know the beginning of a new ndp movement right right that will be based again in a broad strokes you know how can can we rebuild the party putting it in alberta made sense made sense right there
Carter
3:20
there were reasons to put it in alberta now were there reasons to put it in toronto were there reasons to put it in montreal of course there are yeah
Carter
3:27
there's always a reason and it works out like in alberta all of our conventions wind up in red deer right
Carter
3:32
right and there's two reasons for that the
Carter
3:34
sure there's one where you don't want to put it in edmonton don't want to put in calgary we put it in the compromise but the hotel rooms are cheaper yeah
Carter
3:41
right so so there's there's all All kinds of practicalities
Zain
3:43
practicalities of it. How
Carter
3:44
How much does it cost us to get a room? Can we book our convention there? Do they have space for us at this particular time? Right. All these logistics things matter too. Right. So bottom line, is
Carter
3:56
is there a location bias? Absolutely. Right. Did
Carter
4:01
Let's break that down. Okay.
Carter
4:03
Okay. OK, because if the leaked manifesto passed,
Carter
4:07
passed, even with its watered down compromise position, I'm guessing that the Alberta NDP didn't support it. Yeah,
Carter
4:17
I'm not guessing at all because the Alberta NDP people, the people, you know, Corey's people, the people of Corey have basically said the people
Zain
4:25
people of Corey. We
Carter
4:26
We don't even like this compromise. We shouldn't be talking about it. It's bad for the NDP. It's bad for Alberta. We're not going to talk about it. This is stupid. So
Carter
4:33
to say that the same people who voted for the Leap Manifesto compromise are the same people who unelected Thomas Mulcair, he's got a basic logic problem and he's got a basic math problem. Even at
Carter
4:51
at its best case scenario, the NDP in Alberta are a small minority of the NDP across Canada. right it he got 48 he's the first leader ever to lose outright outright lose yeah right joe clark gets 66 and he's a loser and that's yeah right um ralph klein got 55 and he was a loser these
Carter
5:17
these things uh there's a case to be made that yes losing is is you know you have to get more than 50%. He didn't. And it wouldn't have mattered how
Carter
5:27
how many Albertans were there.
Carter
5:30
They didn't have the numbers to unelect Thomas Mulcair. Corey,
Zain
5:34
Corey, I want to go to you about this Mulcair question. Carter raises a good point, and I want to talk to you about the same one. The concept of location bias and the location of a convention, you've gone through a few of these yourself. Explain to me from your angle if that bias exists, which I think we're leaning towards, yes, but how do you counteract it or how do you play towards it or against it is it how do you kind of strategize
Corey
5:55
it yeah there's only been a few conventions i've ever been to that did not have a location bias and those were in the good old days when leadership was done by delegates because they everybody tried to send full slates in very contested nominations correct yes
Corey
6:08
uh so regardless of whether you're coming from montreal or alberta you were sending your i think it was 14 delegates because otherwise you were people were organizing to make that happen that was going to happen but But in off years, and now every convention is an off-year convention because you don't actually pick the leader there. Interesting, and I think we should talk about it someday, and maybe it doesn't have to be today, that we elect our leaders one way and we turf them a different way. And if you haven't set up like an interesting complication there.
Corey
6:38
yeah, any other time, assuming you're not going to get full slates, you have this bias towards the proximity of the convention. And in fact, it's gotten worse because most of the parties, NDP including, have set up this system where you can be elected as a delegate. And even if you've hit your threshold in Alberta or in your riding of Calgary Confederation, they'll just slot you into a different riding. You'll be a delegate for them because they'd like to have the numbers. They want the optics. They want to have a number of, it's not even slates at that point. It's like, let's get as many people as possible to this convention. Let's have it as full as possible.
Corey
7:14
Let's go. go uh and unfortunately for tom mulcair he's an idiot right
Corey
7:20
right i mean i don't know how else to put it like you set your convention in alberta and i actually think it happened before the election i do right i'm
Corey
7:27
i'm not 100 sure on
Zain
7:28
on that so in that in that case what would and just to kind of take it back for a second did they want to make gains in alberta by putting it there i just want to understand like what some of the mindsets are a lot of the time it's that a lot of the time it's
Corey
7:38
it's people saying you haven't put one in my area of
Zain
7:42
of the country just as simple as that sometimes
Corey
7:44
sometimes a lot lot of the time yeah
Corey
7:45
you know in uh in the the federal liberals they tend to bounce between like montreal and somewhere else and then back to montreal oh fascinating okay i mean not
Corey
7:55
not not really all the time but you know i
Corey
7:57
i think two of the last four conventions have been in montreal right oh six was in montreal then they go to vancouver and then i think anyway back
Corey
8:04
in montreal yeah it doesn't matter but the point is they try to kind of spread it around so
Corey
8:08
so that people don't feel like they're being neglected it's an easy thing to put a convention in an area and then be done with it right it's not really about allocating resources there and it keeps it keeps the peace with organizers there who might feel otherwise
Corey
8:23
okay so they set it in alberta yeah yeah yeah so set convention in alberta step one and it's not like tom all care had no sway over this process sure the leader he's part of the executive he had the ability to kind of persuade sure
Corey
8:38
and it actually looked pretty fortuitous uh for all the reasons we've already talked about the alberta ndp everything looks great but
Corey
8:45
but then you pick a fight with alberta right the the week before the the election and maybe you didn't mean to but
Corey
8:51
but that's still political malpractice you know you go on peter masbridge or you go to an interview with him and then you say like oh yeah i'd support leap if the like you know the party wouldn't yeah party told told me to that's crazy like
Corey
9:03
like let's just remember how crazy that is you are going to a convention in alberta you know that position will be unpopular you know your leadership is on the line then
Corey
9:11
you lose your leadership and
Corey
9:13
and you follow it up by blaming alberta that's like you punch somebody in the face you go to jail and you're like wow it's the guy's face's fault like
Corey
9:22
it doesn't make any sense and you know frankly he
Corey
9:25
he might be right he might have survived if it was in downtown Toronto? Oh, you think
Zain
9:28
think so, hey? He would not
Corey
9:30
not have. So we're getting to the questions. Okay, and I'm not piling on. I'm in the middle of a sentence here. He
Corey
9:34
He might have been right. I doubt he was right. He might have been right. Okay,
Carter
9:38
Okay, so you're hedging against him. But
Carter
9:40
even if that was
Corey
9:42
Don't take a definitive position. Even if that was the case,
Corey
9:45
I doubt he would have been so tone-deaf to the people of Toronto as to insult the interests of the Toronto New Democrats before ending up in town. Are
Carter
9:53
Are you saying that he wouldn't have done what Ted Cruz did did and and insult your
Corey
9:56
your values oh my
Zain
9:57
my god well yeah was this in fact carter like a new york values like moment for tom mulcair i guess in retrospect and post you know but you know in the sense that ted cruz had months before the primary he was entering tom mulcair had a week and he knew things were going to be in edmonton and he knew things were going to be in the province of alberta was this akin to that moment in a sense i
Carter
10:19
i guess it was i mean except for me Let
Carter
10:22
us not fall in the trap of
Carter
10:25
of blaming recent events for a trend that began before the election. The problem the NDP had with Thomas Mulcair is that he looked like he was going to win.
Carter
10:37
At one point during the election campaign, he was winning the polls. For a few months, at least. Then he started to pander and move away from the true principles of the NDP. That's a little simple. poll but no it's not there it is okay i'm talking in delegate speak
Corey
10:58
there's some subtext i like that yeah
Carter
11:00
yeah so a lot you know and and then they they lose and and they were outflanked to the left by justin trudeau all
Carter
11:06
all because their leader took some really stupid positions in their mind that's the cause that's the root of it at the beginning i mean i'm sure there's a beginning before that they didn't like him when they elected him and now they really didn't like him when he underperformed. When he lost, yeah.
Carter
11:20
Right? Coming off of Jack Layton overperforming, no one could have, you know, really captured that. But by looking like he could have won, it
Zain
11:30
So you think this extended beyond Man's
Carter
11:34
think of that, Corey? I think that's fascinating
Zain
11:36
me. Are we playing into some, not bias on recency, but effectively are we just pinning the most recent event as the downfall? Yep,
Corey
11:44
there's some truth to that. But you do have to keep in mind that it's not like there was a lot of people calling for his head in the weeks following up. There were a couple, but for the most part, the unions had lined up behind him. His caucus, you know, you had some tepid statements from Nicky Ashton and whatnot. But you had Nathan Cullen, for example, endorsing his leadership.
Corey
12:05
where i really think he he screwed up is
Corey
12:08
is he decided that he was going to throw his lot in with a group who didn't like him to begin with and gave gave the group that did sort of think he was okay every reason to be mad at him and and that was a big problem so why why i think it's it's beyond self-serving that he would take that interpretation of events you know if it wasn't in alberta because what he's really saying is but for fortune you know but for some random random happenstance, I would still be leader of this party. That's not true. Stephen's
Corey
12:35
Stephen's correct in that sense. Maybe he would have gotten 60%. Maybe he could have held on. Well, in fact, if his measurement is like, if I got 50%- 50%, then probably. It's 100% true that it was because it was in Alberta. But you put it in Alberta. You poked Alberta in the eye. It's your fault, Tom. And
Carter
12:52
And no one stays on with 50%. No,
Carter
12:55
one. Yeah. He needed 70 minimum. He needed 80. We're talking 78
Zain
12:58
as the kiss of death. Yeah,
Zain
12:59
this is nothing. Okay, so listen, tell me this, because last episode we talked about how you would have done things differently if you were Tom Mulcair getting into this. I don't want to rehash that territory. But what I do want to talk about in terms of the NDP is what you do going forward, because now you've had the first time a leader under 50%. You've got your front runner, Megan Leslie, saying she's not going to run. You've got Nathan Collins saying he's not going to run. Oh,
Carter
13:24
Oh, he's a tiny in now. Okay,
Zain
13:25
Okay, so as a strategist right now, Carter, what are you trying What are you trying to do to pick up the pieces? If you're on the NDP side right now, what is the frame of mind that you have, number one? But number two, what is the lowest hanging fruit that you try to assemble to create the next viable leadership? Or what are you doing right now?
Carter
13:42
You're giving me like, what am I doing? I mean... Yeah, if you are on that team, what
Carter
13:47
what are the steps that you follow right now that you're trying?
Carter
13:49
I'm always on the team that's just assembling the leadership, right? So rebuilding is...
Carter
13:54
the rebuilding to me is the person you elect right
Carter
13:58
right so i'm not a big believer and we can equate this to the pcs in alberta we can equate this to uh the manitoba ndp now that they're they're done or we you know even when adrian dicks had to leave the ndp in in in british columbia
Carter
14:13
don't start to rebuild the party before you choose the election or before you choose the the leader. Because the leader becomes the personification of the brand. And that
Carter
14:23
that could change so markedly depending on which leader you choose. So my recommendation to whether it's the PCs in Alberta, or the NDP in Manitoba, or the federal NDP is
Carter
14:37
get yourself in order, right?
Carter
14:39
right? Make sure you've got a good executive, make sure that you're doing all the work of a party that no one knows about that no one sees and then when the leader becomes the leader yeah
Carter
14:48
that's when you start to rebuild don't waste your effort become don't you don't make sure that you've got your your riding associations doing their riding meetings right make sure that however your process is going to be that you choose your new leader make sure that it runs flawlessly and effortlessly make sure that you've got a good deposit make sure that all the rules are going to be followed make sure that you're engaging people don't worry about building the party That's the leader's job, and that's what actually happens in a leadership process. Regardless
Carter
15:16
of what the leadership process is,
Zain
15:18
party. Corey, do you agree? Is this one after the other? Does it happen simultaneously? What do you think? I disagree
Corey
15:25
disagree with Steven here. Maybe that's because of where I've come from. He says he does leaderships. I've done leaderships too, but I've also done the party side as
Corey
15:33
you're trying to orchestrate through. And I think that Steven is right on the public facing stuff. Your brand in the public will always be your leader's brand in this day and age. That's just a reality people have to come to terms with. There are political movements, and I air quote movements, that come along every now and then that believe they're about ideas and they're bigger than that. But But at the end of the day, it's really about the leader. For most movements,
Corey
15:56
Yeah, I mean they're the ones who are going to be articulating those ideas. They're the ones who – if they're truly leaders, like leaders in a small L sense, not capital L sense of the party, they should be the ones driving the policy agenda. Should they not? Is that not the definition of leadership? Sure, sure. Anyways, but on the party side of things, sometimes the party is in pretty rough shape. And when you go into a leadership contest with the party in such a bad place, the
Corey
16:24
the outcomes can be less than ideal. And I will point out that the federal liberals went through a fair bit of rebuilding Sands' leader before they handed it over to
Corey
16:33
Justin Trudeau. And part of that is you don't want the leader's first day on the job to be cleaning up messes. You want to be putting out as many fires as you can beforehand, and sometimes that takes a little bit of time. sometimes you need to go through those brutal truth and reconciliation moments when your party has been utterly destroyed before like you want to do that yeah
Zain
16:51
yeah you want to take
Corey
16:52
take that that arrow for your leader the next leader whomever they may be i
Corey
16:56
i will however say that
Corey
16:59
can get your party into kind of at best a neutral or a thoughtful space but you are never to steven's credit to his point you are never actually going to redefine your party before
Corey
17:10
before the leader comes that just never happens ever ever ever does not happen um the
Corey
17:15
the best you can do is just you know bandage it up right
Zain
17:17
right okay so maybe let me take that question put a little bit of a machiavellian spin on it cory if you are ultimately seeing this as chaos right now you've got your top two or three contenders not competing your leader got under 50 suppose you're coming from the inside looking in is there an opportunity to take hold right here just as like a machiavellian strategist that's ultimately what i want to know right now yeah
Corey
17:41
yeah i mean it's chaos is a ladder right yeah uh
Corey
17:43
uh there is always opportunity in a vacuum to fill said vacuum uh that used the nice thing about being in a leadership contest relative to times
Corey
17:52
times normal yeah political party is party discipline is is it
Corey
17:57
it doesn't really exist in the same way the concept of follow the leader is gone there is no leader you can publicly disagree with tom o'care you can float ideas that may be of interest and you're not being disloyal to the party right and that is that is an exciting time for a certain type of party member right they're able to go out throw out ideas some people run for leader frankly just to get certain things on the agenda not really hoping to win sometimes
Corey
18:20
and and it it can be a nice healthy piece of renewal so what
Corey
18:25
what it is not the question you asked me but one thing i think it should be addressed is the
Corey
18:30
the leap manifesto is now part of it is is kind of an example almost most of how like now we're talking political parties in their normal day events
Corey
18:39
do not actually talk about ideas like this but now it is something the ndp is talking about if the ndp does not want to
Corey
18:46
get the maximum downside of this leap manifesto conversation if i'm the party yeah i'm fostering every conversation i can i'm getting broad bent to pull together some ideas i'm encouraging i you know it's not like i don't think it's a like hey party members send your ideas forward it's actually like the movers on the edges i'm getting labor to sponsor some things i'm i'm doing whatever i can to throw as much as possible
Corey
19:09
almost get it out of your system it's all out there in the same sense you want to clear the decks for the next leader let
Corey
19:15
let those conversations kind of begin in the next year let the leadership determine how those conversations are settled and
Corey
19:22
and then let's move on as an organization i
Zain
19:24
i i should have led with the machiavellian question to the guy on the table who's the most Machiavellian, Stephen Carter.
Carter
19:29
Oh, these things are my favorite things. So you're sitting here. Yeah.
Zain
19:36
And I guess I don't need to put you in anyone else's shoes. Let's just ultimately play this as you. You're sitting here, right? Do you see opportunity to ultimately climb this ladder of the NDP in some way? Is there a viable opportunity from
Zain
19:49
from the outside? What is it? I'm curious about that. What is it right now,
Zain
19:52
here today? What's your point
Carter
19:52
point of view about what the NDP could be, right? right? Like the NDP is tough for me. It's not my party. Sure. But if
Carter
20:00
if you had a particular point of view, if you thought, you know, do
Carter
20:03
do you, is there something that I think I could do with this party? Yeah. Yeah. This particular moment of chaos is fantastic. It's great, isn't
Carter
20:10
The only thing you could ask for is more candidates, right? The fewer the candidates, the less chaos there is. So when there's one, two or three candidates, it's very difficult to kind kind of arrange things so that you can propel yourself to the top. When
Carter
20:24
When Redford was up against five other candidates, six candidates, each with a decent campaign team, five of which were really, really legit.
Carter
20:34
We only had one guy, Doug Griffiths, who was underfunded, and he had great ideas. So he punched above his weight in terms of media coverage and those types of things. It didn't turn into delegates, but he was legit. that's when things become fun because now math comes into play right
Carter
20:54
and so if you're looking at a convention uh
Carter
20:58
uh a delegated process or a one member one vote process it doesn't even matter the chaos that exists with a wide open leadership process without an heir apparent oh boy let's go play because that's when things are fun i
Carter
21:12
i think cory anything cory and i get most most excited is when you have this no one is is is eschewing yeah
Carter
21:17
know cory and i here
Carter
21:19
here we go brother let's go let's find the candidate and let's make shit happen let's
Zain
21:24
let's let's ensure that this is you know tethered correctly to to context right this is the third place party federal party viable federal party that is now rudderless and potentially leaderless cory is there opportunity in your mind right now or mike's am i going above and beyond the description i
Corey
21:38
i don't think they're are rudderless and i don't think they're leaderless okay
Corey
21:41
okay i think they're capital l leaderless but i think there are a lot of leaders in the ndp in
Corey
21:46
fact there might be too many that might be one of the problems the ndp has
Zain
21:49
too many leaders sure um
Corey
21:51
yeah thanks oh my god uh but look there
Corey
21:54
there there is a ton of opportunity for the ndp there is something in the water right yeah
Corey
22:00
you can see this sort of leftward movement kind
Zain
22:03
what would you do let me be explicit
Zain
22:05
what would you do what what i do you see you see the situation right now give me a composite of a candidate or something you would do right now being like this is how i take advantage of this situation well
Corey
22:13
well you need to you need to create almost a a new left-wing vision right um you
Corey
22:19
you need to you and why i say new is because the the liberals have co-opted so much of the old one right you need to sort of redefine the new democrats but in a way that is is clearly to the left of the liberals in my opinion so it's It's going to actually take some ideas and cast
Corey
22:33
cast some ideas on the table.
Corey
22:37
there are a lot of things you could potentially do. And I think you could potentially – well, look, I think the liberals have just broken too many promises and they are going to lose their leftward flank if they keep that going on.
Carter
22:48
There's a school of thought that says that the liberals will ultimately fail, right? And that failure will occur sooner than later, sooner than the next election. election there's another school of thought that to say you know the conservatives aren't going to choose the real winner this time yeah because they know that the liberals are in for at least eight years so
Corey
23:09
so as to what i think they should do yeah
Corey
23:13
i'll get back to you on that okay
Zain
23:14
okay good i have some ideas i've got i got a question that just popped in my head carter i want to ask you this to what point do you think uh was tom walker's downfall that his persona and personality did not capture or the current zeitgeist in terms of comparatives to someone like Justin Trudeau? Would the NDP, in their next move, be smart to pursue a sunny ways, palatable, charismatic candidate? Or do you think that's a temporal direction?
Carter
23:41
Never prepare for the last election. Thank you. Always prepare for the next election. Go where the fuck is going to be. Be a Gretzky. Don't be a Semenko.
Zain
23:54
What another bumper sticker. Don't be a Isamenko, by the way, we've got our episode title.
Carter
24:00
But this is the challenge of most elections, right? Most election strategists, most campaign strategists, most media pundits want to do the last election.
Carter
24:10
It's over. And it only exists once. All elections only exist once. The next election will be different. And so you must move to that new place. And if you can define what the next election is going to be about, as Justin Trudeau did. it yeah justin trudeau defined it as it will be about sunny ways and optimism and this is where we're going and 16 spread page spreads in mclean's magazine he
Carter
24:33
he defined that i have a suspicion
Carter
24:36
that the next election will
Carter
24:37
will be about the best ideas and the willingness to follow through on them regardless of the pain that bring that it brings with it right
Zain
24:44
interesting so you're thinking it'll be substantive i
Carter
24:46
i think it's going to be substantive i think that that if i were running a candidate right now for
Zain
24:51
for the next cycle yeah i
Carter
24:52
i would say well in this ndp leadership okay okay i'd say you know what i'm not going to worry about i
Carter
24:58
can never beat justin trudeau at on his game i can't beat him at i'm going to stand up and do the definition of quantum computing right uh at a wikipedia level i'm you know i can't beat him at that so what i'm going to do is i'm actually I'm actually going to have the guy who figured out quantum computing.
Carter
25:17
I'm going to find the guy and I'm going to run somebody. I'm going to run a man or a woman who knows their shit backwards and forwards, not just the briefing book. See,
Zain
25:26
See, that's fascinating. Corey, I heard you just pretty much say thank you when Carter said you never run from the lessons of the last election. Any other thoughts to that? And then the path going forward very quickly. Yeah,
Corey
25:35
Yeah, I mean, I think you don't run to the last election, but I actually think that you do know that Justin Trudeau is going to be your foil next election. And there is probably a personality type out there that could be a
Corey
25:48
fascinating counterpoint, right? A fascinating foil to Trudeau. I mean, I'm not sure you're looking for the policy nerd or the wonk, right? I think regardless of the election, charisma is a good thing. You need to be able to connect with people.
Corey
25:58
But, you know, to be honest, what I think you need is like a bit of a bastard. Like somebody who's like kind of funny but has an edge maybe, you know, will say they – I
Corey
26:08
I hate to use the Trump-esque model because I don't necessarily think it's a Trump-esque model. But
Corey
26:12
But you need somebody who has almost the
Corey
26:17
the depth and the meanness in the way that Trudeau has the shallowness and the niceness.
Corey
26:25
And I think we might just be sick of shallow and nice by the time the next election comes around. That's
Zain
26:29
That's fascinating. Okay, I'm going to leave that conversation there. In the same segment, let's just quickly move. We've talked about Mulcair and Alberta. Let's just continue on with Alberta very quickly. Stephen Carter, the leader of the PC party, Rick McIver, was thrown out effectively. You know what? I'll let you tee this up because, frankly, the facts don't speak as well as they do when Stephen Carter explains them to us. So story time with Stephen. Here we go. Story
Carter
26:50
Story time for Stephen. So this is – let me give you how I learned about this. Sure. So all of a sudden, I just get texts and messages. Oh, my God. Rick McIver was just thrown out of the house.
Carter
27:00
So I'm like, well, what happened? Right? Like, what happened? So I go back and I try and figure it out. Here's what appears to have happened. A copy of the speaker's decision was distributed with the amendment to a private member's bill. It's important that it's a private member's bill because, generally speaking, a government member does not try
Carter
27:20
try and amend a private member's bill. It kind of goes – if you want a government bill, you can introduce as many government bills as you want. Because you're
Carter
27:28
don't need this happy-go-lucky private member's process to do so. So the government traditionally does not amend a private member's bill. In fact, generally speaking, no one amends a private member's bill. The last amendment was a friendly amendment, and it was made in 2007. No such thing as a friendly amendment. It was
Carter
27:46
was agreed to by the person who proposed the motion, you jackass.
Zain
27:52
This level of tension is healthy, I think. thanks for
Zain
27:57
for better listening so
Carter
28:02
rick mckiver rises on a point of order basically saying what the hell's going on here right this shouldn't happen right right and the
Carter
28:09
the the pages had just distributed the amendment and the bottom
Carter
28:15
is the speaker's ruling right
Carter
28:17
so the speaker without debate there's been no debate right there's been no discussion in the legislature and the discussion So McIver's point, and he is right, this
Carter
28:26
this is not the way to run the legislature. The
Carter
28:28
The way that this is supposed to happen, now, supposed to happen, okay,
Carter
28:32
okay, is very different than what happens in reality.
Carter
28:36
The way it's supposed to happen is that the speaker, as an independent member of the legislature, not beholden to government nor to the opposition, hears both sides and acts in a truly nonpartisan manner.
Corey
28:51
right so there's other fairy tales we can tilt people
Carter
28:55
well there has been a very non-partisan speaker in the legislature in alberta you're thinking of kowalski i'm thinking of kowalski yeah he was actually pretty good at that and the reason he was non-partisan is he hated the government ralph
Carter
29:06
ralph klein kicked him out of cabinet he was
Zain
29:08
was part of the government yeah and then he got
Carter
29:09
got kicked out this was the only truly independent speaker election in alberta's like my recent history anyways ken
Carter
29:16
ken kowalski gets kicked out of cabinet says fuck you to klein So he decides to run for Speaker. Klein says, don't elect that prick. We'll get screwed. His
Carter
29:24
own members say, we
Carter
29:26
kind of like Ken. We
Carter
29:28
Ken. He got kicked out of Canada. Let's give him something. So they give him the Speaker's chair. Ken Kowalski holds on to the Speaker's chair for over 10 years. He
Carter
29:36
He was like the monster Speaker. And he would not let anybody get away with crap because he really was impartial. Bob Warner, the new Speaker of the Legislature, NDP. we
Carter
29:48
didn't know very much about him when he got elected and and he kind of came into this only as we only knew him as a relatively new but educated and intelligent right ndp and with a background
Corey
29:59
background as a mediator right
Carter
30:00
right so we thought this will be okay the
Carter
30:03
the the idea that the just the the that the government is pulling the strings on the speaker would drive the opposition party's bonkers and this is where it's so beautiful right
Carter
30:12
right that's the irony is so rich and deep because the pcs used to to be the guys pulling the the strings on the other speakers cory
Zain
30:20
cory i'll let you get in right on that note tied that
Corey
30:22
that is the part where you know the guy the part of me who was in opposition for my whole adult life you know yeah until very recently you know always on the outside mad at the government railing against them is just like i can't even be like it's not even schadenfreude it's not even there it's just like my mind is blown that it's now the pc's standing up screaming about the government railroading through decisions in the legislature like it's just it's so surreal well
Zain
30:48
well what do you think of carter's you know telling of the tale do you feel like rick mckiver was right in this situation or or does it not matter because this is not a this
Corey
30:56
this is not a game
Corey
30:56
game of what actually happened but the optics and the perception well i think he was well i don't know okay let's put it this way i
Corey
31:04
i when you hear rick mckiver talk you can actually hear his voice shaking he is actually angry about this legitimately yeah right
Corey
31:12
this isn't theatrics no no but this is almost my problem with his response right first of all there's no way to sound good when you actually have that like a timber in your voice right people will be like whoa dude calm down right but the second is you're
Corey
31:26
you're not this naive rick mckiver you cannot be this naive you do not actually believe that these kind of decisions are decided on the spot everybody has the order paper the house leaders are talking about this stuff you know what's going to be coming if you're the government you are going to prepare if you're the speaker and you're giving the heads up you are going to be thinking about the the kind of precedents that will be going into this so you don't look like an idiot while sitting on that big chair right right right so yeah of course this happened beforehand because otherwise what's bob weiner going to do he has as mentioned he's a very new speaker he he would not want to be in that situation and the government would not want to put him in that situation right so the government doing him a solid it's like hey we're going to do this you might want to see what's going to happen he
Carter
32:05
he should have his own team do it he did so
Corey
32:08
so the table officers were the ones who prepared it that doesn't mean the government wasn't involved in giving him the heads up now mckiver's right it's supposed to happen after debate but
Corey
32:17
but mckiver's not that stupid it does not i mean i shouldn't say that stupid i i'm actually almost impressed by how like mr smith goes to washington mckiver was about this like he he was actually upset that the legislature was being run in this fashion i
Corey
32:33
mean the government he was a part of you
Corey
32:35
you know ran the government in this fashion this is not it is a little tough for me to take all in and it is very tough for me to decide who i think is right and who i think is wrong i wonder if i'm not too cynical thinking oh this is just the way it is but
Corey
32:48
but on the other hand i'm
Zain
32:50
i'm not sure it could be any other way okay put it that
Zain
32:52
that way let's leave it there let's move it on to our next segment our next segment an invisible elephant in the room cory hogan let's
Zain
32:59
let's talk about the gop oh let's talk about the gop first last
Zain
33:03
last night was new york actually let's start there last night was new york start spreading the
Carter
33:10
this karaoke are we doing karaoke karaoke
Zain
33:12
karaoke okay last night was new york donald trump wins it but you know what here's the thing every time i feel like i say donald trump wins it there has to be an asterisk because let's get into this before we talk about trump it seems like on the state level ted cruz has this insidious project that people don't understand maybe on on the top line view but he's ultimately swooping up these delegates on the back end of donald trump's wins quote unquote let's talk about that for a second okay do you want to start there yeah
Corey
33:40
yeah we talked a bit about this but let's let me just tee it off yeah very cursory
Corey
33:44
cursory and then we can go into it which is basically well you're you're saying in the primaries or in the caucuses who Who you want to get the delegates. The actual election of the delegates is in many cases, if not most cases, I think most cases, happening at either state conventions, congressional district conventions, what have you, where the names are going forward. These are like actual people that
Zain
34:06
that are chosen. These are actual people, yeah. People
Corey
34:07
People forget all the time. This is really about sending delegates somewhere. Like humans
Corey
34:13
will vote. Yeah. Right? It is not just a matter of like tallying up all of the votes of the millions of Americans who have gone. on
Corey
34:20
is interesting about this is that the trump campaign all all air game has uh has really fallen flat at this the actual election of the delegates who who have to vote for trump on the first ballot they're bound yeah first ballot at least in some states they're bound even further right uh these
Corey
34:39
these they are being elected but they're cruise people so that the assumption is after the the first ballot they will just go to cruz so he is having elected on the trump slate
Corey
34:49
cruz delegates so uh if
Zain
34:52
if that's the primary for a second is that is that enough because i want to ultimately ask you that's the that's the that's the issue but that's the issue certainly have opinions on so if that's the issue uh my mind says great strategy ted cruz right like is that is that not like the best thing he could do right now i well okay well actually that's a couple of weeks ago i would have agreed
Corey
35:12
said hey that's that's very savvy wait you
Corey
35:14
are on the other
Corey
35:16
well here's where i stand yeah tell me where you stand you're laughing i'm confused go ahead i think he's gone too far i really do because i think that if you have a situation for example where trump goes in and you need 12 37 to win that's the number yeah let's
Corey
35:30
let's say he goes in and he gets 12 20 and on the next ballot he drops to like 8 50 i think that americans will rightly say that's wrong what happened there i was disenfranchised i elected a trump delegate and you're telling me i got a cruise delegate And
Corey
35:44
And it would have been OK on the margins and it would have been OK to kind of clean up and pick up and sort of do these things on the edges. But now it's too much. It's looking like, in my opinion – Is it
Zain
35:54
it though? I think so. For a brokered convention when you know that's getting down? Hold on. Let
Corey
35:58
Let me throw this back to you. OK. Let me throw a question to you.
Corey
36:03
Do you think that it is fair that
Corey
36:05
that your elected delegate would be flipped the other way? Who is me? Me? The
Corey
36:12
The person who voted for Trump? No, I don't think so. Absolutely
Corey
36:15
not. Okay, but it's not okay, in my opinion, when it's gone this far. Because what you've done is you've essentially given an excellent reason to eliminate the delegate system altogether. And don't get me wrong, I've been to delegate conventions. I've done this. I was the chief whip for Alberta in 06 leadership for Dion. And there were, I want to be very clear, fringe cases where it'd be like a Ken Dryden delegate. delegate and we'd be like oh we'll get a dion person in there because of the way the delegates were elected and you could do it on a few on the first ballot they were bound to vote dryden but then they could vote for dion after
Corey
36:48
but the sheer scale that he's doing it at it's breaking the cause and effect between your vote and the outcome and that is very very bad
Zain
36:58
bad stephen carter is is it not that the brokered convention is absolutely chaos and that this This wouldn't matter? Are you on Corey's
Carter
37:04
Corey's side? It matters. It matters entirely because in the example that Corey has given, he starts with just under – let's say he starts at 1150, right, which is about 100 votes shy of winning.
Carter
37:17
He starts there and suddenly – so the first ballot – And he being Trump, right. Everybody does what they're – yeah, he being Trump. Everybody does what they're supposed to do and they vote the
Carter
37:26
the way that they have to. They're bound delegates. The next one, a
Carter
37:31
a significant shift, undermines confidence in the entire system. That's
Carter
37:36
And it's ultimately all of our voting methodologies are
Carter
37:41
are kind of this game where we all believe that they actually went the way they're supposed to. Even the
Carter
37:47
the way that they elect the president. It's the electoral college. Those are real people too.
Carter
37:53
Could you imagine if the electoral college started to just – Just started
Carter
37:56
started to be totally
Carter
37:58
know why you guys sent us here, but it's a month and a half later and shit's changed. So we're going to change our minds.
Carter
38:06
That's not – we
Carter
38:08
we at least need the appearance that the system is working. So you also think Cruz is going too far on this? Here's what I think Cruz should be doing. What should
Zain
38:14
should he be doing?
Carter
38:15
good. Win a fucking state.
Carter
38:17
Right? Like this is where his problem is, is that he's – These are back-end tactics. Yeah,
Carter
38:22
Yeah, and ultimately, of
Carter
38:23
of all of the candidates for president,
Carter
38:26
Cruz is seen as the slimiest, and that's saying something, right? It's
Carter
38:30
saying something. That's saying something, and so to put himself in a position where he could be accused of using slimeball tactics is just bad politics.
Corey
38:39
Yeah, look, I think that he's – I mean, he's just thrown away the general election. He probably would have anyways if he manages to win the nomination like this. I'm going to throw a stat at you here.
Corey
38:49
I can't remember who did it. I think it was NBC, but they did a poll of Republican primary voters and they asked
Corey
38:55
asked essentially, if this goes in with nobody having a clear majority, who should win? And the choices were effectively, let them figure it out or the person with the most going in wins.
Corey
39:05
Now, the Americans don't have a ton of experience with this rolling up into multiple ballots, the sense that you elect representatives who elect representatives and so on forth. Canadians were a little more familiar with it, both our parliamentary system and
Corey
39:18
the way we've generally had three parties and the counterbalances that go on with that.
Corey
39:25
thought that the person with the plurality should win. Trump is nowhere near that high. There is a significant number of Republican voters who are like, I don't like Trump, but if Trump goes in with the most, Trump should get it. We're not just talking about that. That we're talking about something
Corey
39:40
something so far from that, that it should scare the pants off the GOP, which is not only it's like I
Corey
39:46
I elected Trump delegates. They are now Cruz people and they are going to act faithless is what it is at the end of the day. They are going to going
Corey
39:53
going under the auspices of being a Trump supporter vote for the other guy. I
Zain
39:57
I like this. You brought up the GOP and then them scared ultimately of their current position. Let's talk about that for a second. And Stephen Carter, if you are the GOP, let's
Zain
40:07
let's say you're institutional GOP right now. You represent the party. You're foundational to this party. What do you advise them to do right now to
Zain
40:16
to ultimately start salvaging or saving or preserving their brand? What are the first steps there?
Carter
40:24
Well, let's start off with where we are. Or do they need to? Maybe even that's the question. They're in trouble. Okay.
Carter
40:28
Right. Right. Hillary Clinton is now, I think it's 78 cents or something, 78 percent likelihood of winning in the in the the presidency. Yeah.
Carter
40:37
In the betting. Yeah. And so Albert,
Carter
40:43
Albert, our Americans are thinking that this is going to become a Hillary Clinton presidency.
Carter
40:52
they need to focus on is
Carter
40:54
is the Senate and the House. right
Carter
40:58
republicans own both of those areas right now right if
Carter
41:01
if this becomes down market all the way down right like it where hillary
Carter
41:05
hillary clinton is able to ride a wave like barack obama rode in 2008 and they take back the house yeah
Carter
41:13
uh and maybe they take the senate and uh i can't remember the name of the senate uh supreme court nominee oh
Zain
41:22
let's just go with that yeah and he's
Carter
41:24
he's He's rather centrist compared to what they're going to get. Yeah.
Carter
41:27
Right? So that scares the crap out of them. They have to start focusing down ticket.
Carter
41:33
They need to make sure that they hold their state legislatures. Yeah.
Carter
41:35
Yeah. And that means that they need to raise a lot of money for
Carter
41:38
for those candidates. Right. On that level. And this is where things could get interesting. So Trump's still going to run for president. He's going to be the nominee and he's going to run for president. And what I'll be interested to see is how much money he's able to attract. because I don't think he's going to be able to attract nearly the money that Hillary does because that money is going to go to protecting the down-ticket side. Corey
Zain
41:59
Corey Hogan, if you are the GOP establishment right now, how are you protecting your brand? Carter talks about down-ticket races, fundraising. What are you doing right now? What are you installing within the party to make this a thing? Well,
Corey
42:09
Well, I am really concerned if I'm the GOP establishment, so to speak, like if I'm the RNC, about this sense that Trump was robbed of the nomination. nation that gives trump an excuse to run on a on an independent ticket yeah and
Corey
42:24
frankly he he would be legitimate in his grievances in my opinion if we get into a scenario like the one i was talking about yeah
Corey
42:32
it just reinforces every sleazy voter suppression tactic this sense that the democracy is not a democracy that people have about the gop i
Corey
42:41
i think i think that would be a bit of a disaster for the republicans gonna win now
Zain
42:46
don't you don't you think that trump's essentially after New York. What makes you say that? Just momentum from last night?
Zain
42:51
I mean, you play with the 538.
Carter
42:54
538. It's got that election.
Zain
42:54
election. The delegate counter, yeah, yeah.
Carter
42:57
I can't get it to come out to less than 1150.
Corey
43:01
Yeah, it's almost impossible. Yeah.
Carter
43:02
So it's going to come out to 1150 at his worst case scenario.
Zain
43:10
It's too close to the
Zain
43:11
Less than 100 to the number.
Carter
43:13
And you've got Marco Rubio sitting there with 80 or 90 delegates you've got um you know there's 60 60 percent of the population of republicans who think that he should win if he gets that high all
Carter
43:27
all you need is is is is 60 percent of delegates to say you know what i'm
Carter
43:33
right yeah right and all of a sudden this thing is over and it's over in a big way it's going to be trump trump has won cory was right oh
Carter
43:45
you said i was ready a couple you were right
Corey
43:46
right actually i credit let's let's all take a moment give credit to stephen carter nobody out in the public world would know this but in advance of new york he said hillary clinton is leading in the polls by 11 i think that means she wins by 15 and that's pretty much exactly what she won by well
Zain
44:02
well done steven i mean i said 14 he said 16 so i think we both get credit okay okay just to let you know just to let you know just to
Carter
44:08
to let you know so
Zain
44:09
so is there anything else i want to just close that up for a second is there there anything else as the establishment you're doing you're worried what are you doing like carter's strategy is ultimately fuck the presidency we just care about down market racism you want to finance those well so we don't lose the entire apparatus that we have but is there anything else you're focusing on
Corey
44:25
on right now and you're starting to see it they are i think they're mindful of this the there was strong pressure on the rules committee not to try to change things midstream yeah i think you really i
Corey
44:35
i actually think the republicans are playing this wrong uh how they're saying these are the rules these have been the rules for a year rules are rules i just deal with it because they're just exposing how undemocratic their rules fundamentally are because they're based on delegates which can totally subvert the will of these primaries millions of people have voted yeah yeah i think the rnc should have been like these are the rules ted that's a sleazy thing to do these are trump delegates trump people should be filling trump delegate spots that to me would have been a smarter move really yes because uh it it would would have uh it would have made the course of action that trump's or that cruz is taking
Corey
45:11
politically unpalatable and uh and frankly you gotta take you gotta take that gun off the table because if it gets to like
Corey
45:18
like there's two scenarios in my mind right now just two name
Corey
45:20
name out one is trump wins outright yeah on the first ballot the other is he comes so close him not winning will destroy their party so you with those two options i'm
Carter
45:31
i'm with you on that but i just don't think he's not going to win well
Corey
45:33
but okay yeah but that's the take if that's the take you you really cannot let cruz subvert the will right and so you need to make it so it's clearer that everybody knows this is inappropriate behavior and so at those local levels if people start doing it they're like whoa whoa this is this kind of crap guys like let's just be fair is fair we elected
Corey
45:52
elected trump delegates they should actually be trump people but you have to you have to at least dull what cruz is doing stephen
Zain
45:58
stephen carter last night was also the dnc primary in new york Hillary Clinton wins, you can see the monotone nature of my voice effectively expressing my excitement on that. Everybody
Carter
46:07
Everybody was very surprised.
Zain
46:09
Are we pretty much wrapping that one up? What do you have to say? I've got no question. What are you doing?
Zain
46:15
What are you saying? I don't know.
Carter
46:15
You know, so the...
Carter
46:19
Corey talked about rules. And these are the rules, and these are the rules, and because of the rules, this is the way the process unfolds. The rules in the Democratic primaries are that they're superdelegates. Right. Okay. Hey,
Corey
46:30
before we go a step further, whose genius idea was it to allow them to be branded superdelegates? It's
Carter
46:35
It's ridiculous. It had to be the
Corey
46:37
Well, it had to be. There's no way the party suggested this.
Carter
46:39
this. No strategist worth their shit would have called them super in any way, shape,
Corey
46:43
shape, or form. Well, and in fact, I mean, we're not strangers to delegated conventions. Here, we always called them ex officio, saying you have it because of the office, which is what they are in the States. Yep. These are governors, et cetera, et cetera. Ex officio almost sounds
Zain
46:54
sounds like they have no power. No power. No, no, no. It has
Zain
46:56
has the word ex in
Corey
46:56
in it. Yeah. Ex officio. And they have it because of their office, which, again, is why superdelegates have it.
Corey
47:03
I cannot believe that they let them be called superdelegates. Anyways.
Zain
47:06
Anyways. Corey chimes in with a nomenclature question. That's good. That actually increases the intonation of my voice. That's the most excited I've been about the Democratic voice. You're welcome.
Carter
47:14
Here's the thing. So the ex officio superdelegates exist
Carter
47:19
exist in the Democratic primary system.
Carter
47:25
Hillary is crushing it in those. plus she's winning the pledge delegate battle right right so when you add those two things together she is now 450 or so delegates are winning away from winning this thing outright there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 400 delegates available yeah
Carter
47:42
on next tuesday she's
Carter
47:44
she's going to win 220 of those yeah
Carter
47:46
okay that and california where she's crushing sanders this is it's over yeah there is no means available to sanders to continue to win now i've been in the the place where it's like hey he's he's raising money who
Carter
48:00
who am i to say don't continue the as long as the money keeps flowing ultimately money is the only thing that matters in politics if you've got it you can continue if you don't you're done and this money has enabled him to stay in the race this long i thought he was done on super tuesday i thought he was done the next tuesday i thought he was done the third super tuesday he's been done all the way through i've I've never bought into Corey's cockamamie ideas that maybe he could buy, you know, do something. He couldn't. He didn't. He won't. He needs to drop out. I've
Zain
48:32
I've asked this question way too many times, Corey, so I'm not going to ask. I'm not going to ask you what Sanders' game plan is. I'm going to ask you what Sanders' exit plan is. Oh!
Zain
48:43
tell me, and don't tell me that he shouldn't exit, okay? He's ultimately going to have to do it, whether it's next week or the week after. if you're planning the sanders exit plan give me an idea of what that looks like i
Corey
48:55
i don't think you do it before convention to be honest oh my god
Carter
48:58
god seriously who are you can
Corey
49:00
can i okay let him explain the thought let him explain there's he might be right i don't know exiting and his
Corey
49:06
his full assault needs to stop now oh yeah to me it's clear that he's lost you
Corey
49:12
you halt that i mean maybe sputter it out for the next week see what happens there's gonna be faint hope they're gonna be like like well we'll see but after next week if things continue the way they are just you have to stop you have to stop not
Corey
49:24
not for your party for your country because if this does end up being clinton versus trump or clinton versus cruz and i don't really see a lot of other reasonable outcomes
Corey
49:33
you you just can't you can't you got to give the democrats you can not take for granted how unpopular these people are because there's always a tightening up in the election hillary
Corey
49:45
hillary clinton and this is my point why you stick around to convention yeah there
Corey
49:50
there needs to be a bit of a reconciliation it can't just be we're enemies and i'm out and now we're all supposed to be friends okay okay
Corey
50:00
okay okay it's not just we're enemies now we're friends because i'm out it needs to be a quiet like
Corey
50:06
like de-ratcheting of that tension to a point where at convention everybody
Corey
50:11
everybody can sort of be pals about it right it's just it's not human nature to move from intensity level 10 to intensity level zero it just can't be done and that's why i think he needs to ease out of this contest slowly yeah
Zain
50:23
yeah so that's i think that's to my point that i'm going to ask why wait till convention to do that why not get out early and let convention ultimately culminate in that in that bonding
Corey
50:32
bonding because it allows uh it
Corey
50:34
it allows face saving for sanders which by the way is not for sanders benefit but for the benefit of sanders supporters where at convention you can be like well we We went there with a strong force. We helped make the platform what it is. There was this embrace of the two candidates. It was all very cordial. We are all on the same team.
Corey
50:51
It just creates a better tableau than what you guys are suggesting, which is just sort of leaving these guys cold. Carter,
Carter
50:59
– I'm not necessarily saying leave them in the cold.
Carter
51:01
Sanders hasn't dispatched a negotiating team to the Hillary headquarters today,
Carter
51:07
he's made a tremendous mistake. I
Corey
51:09
I think next week, but sure. But
Carter
51:10
But he needs to send over a team and they need to be negotiating what this looks like. I like the idea of Sanders showing up at the convention. I think it's absolutely required to bring these two halves back together. And
Carter
51:21
I like the idea of Hillary figuring out how to incorporate some of the language that he's been using into her speeches to give a wink and a nod to the people who've been supporting Sanders.
Carter
51:32
You're most right on
Carter
51:34
on your he needs to stop with the attacks. he
Carter
51:38
he cannot keep going after hillary it was surprised he was very cordial all the way up until about i don't know six weeks ago is that
Corey
51:45
that right he started winning it started looking really possible for yeah i mean in the
Carter
51:50
the moment it looked steven
Corey
51:52
steven in the moment modestly possible in the moment in a campaign you've been there you string together a bunch of victories like that you start you start believing it but if you step back he won exactly what was expected of him you
Carter
52:04
you can never Never believe your own press releases. There
Zain
52:06
There we are. Okay, I'm going to leave that there. I'm going to leave that there.
Zain
52:09
Our final segment, over, under, lightning round. Guys, are you ready?
Carter
52:12
Wow, I'm pretty excited. Are
Zain
52:14
Are you really? Is this a new one? Over,
Carter
52:15
Over, under, lightning round.
Zain
52:16
Can we do a segment? Okay, that's good. I'm looking forward to it. He wasn't even paying attention. Initially, I crowdsourced the show from him, and now he just doesn't give a fuck. He's like, everything I've talked about has now been talked about, so I don't care. Corey, on a scale of 1 to 10, the Alberta NDP budget, about a week since it was launched slash released. What do you think at
Corey
52:33
point? I feel the same way I did last week, which is they do well on these communications pieces. The opposition does poorly on these communications pieces. But fundamentally, that revenue hole is still sitting there. And, oh, boy, I mean, I just don't know what that looks like in 2019. Carter, will you give me a number? One to ten,
Zain
52:52
ten, one week later, what do you think?
Zain
52:55
Where were you last week? I don't index. He was a six last week, so he's actually moved up one. He's moved up. You are a left-wing pinko, aren't you? A
Carter
53:00
A little bit left-wing pinko, but more to the point. When you win a communications battle as decisively as they have, you
Carter
53:06
have to be supportive of that. Oh,
Corey
53:08
Oh, by the way, the other thing McIver did is totally moved attention off the budget. Well, let me ask
Zain
53:14
ask you right then. Speaker versus McIver, which one are you choosing in this debate? Who outright won the perception? And secondly, tell me who outright won the philosophy and principle? You never win
Corey
53:23
win looking that angry, but McIver was right on the principle. I think he just needed to take a very different approach to how he communicated. Perception
Zain
53:30
Perception and principle. Carter, who's the winner on each? um
Carter
53:32
um principal uh i
Carter
53:35
think the mciver wins on principle perception the ndp one the his problem was that he lost his mind cory
Zain
53:42
cory yes or no does cruz win any of the upcoming northeastern
Corey
53:47
don't think so i i don't think the northeast but he'll win another couple of states carter uh
Carter
53:51
uh i think it's almost it's it's basically done now okay give
Zain
53:54
give me give me on on the federal liberals we're moving there for a second over under on seven that today's the day they announced on 420 they announced the marijuana uh legislation upcoming at the un all of this put together i don't know if this was happenstance i doubt it was i cannot be that stance this is
Corey
54:12
is much style points uh do you
Zain
54:14
you give it good
Corey
54:15
style i think it's you do it look
Zain
54:18
the green un backdrop i need to mention that think
Corey
54:21
think about the policy that's who's going to be most excited about this policy you just rock their worlds they're sitting there high being like Like, I'm
Corey
54:31
is so good. And I don't want to be like they're the only people who will
Zain
54:34
will care. Guys, I totally thought the liberals did something to it. I'll do the other one. Let's go get some
Carter
54:37
some snacks. No, the most important part about this, too, is it wasn't introduced by the justice minister. Phil Potts. Yeah. Come on. Health minister. I should have mentioned health minister. Carter, you're above a seven on that, too. Oh, it's like insane. But it's, I don't know if it's great strategy. It's just good for us. No, it's much style points. It's just style points. Much style points.
Carter
54:57
Connection to that. are you in or out on trudeau this week uh
Carter
55:00
uh you know i'm okay i i'm i mean i guess because
Carter
55:05
you know i mean i liked what is his teacher thing he's so fucking good the quantum physics thing
Zain
55:11
thing yeah that was great so
Carter
55:12
so good at it cory
Carter
55:14
cory are you gonna be more skeptical he's gonna be more skeptical you know what he's like well he broke his promise about the quantum computing obviously it's not actually even attainable yet and uh trudeau shouldn't even be making promises like like that that's
Zain
55:25
that's the best corey i've heard i
Corey
55:27
do a pretty good with
Corey
55:27
myself that's a great corey i guess
Corey
55:32
i mean he i mean i have to be in in the sense that he had a very good week he
Corey
55:37
he did have a very good week i i think that his uh explanation of quantum computing started strong ended weak i'm
Corey
55:44
i'm just saying of course no but i mean it did it did he
Carter
55:47
he he very rudimentary facts about it which
Corey
55:50
which is fine he he was very strong on what computing is now Now with the ones and the zeros and the gates and all that, where, where he started going like, and then the quantumness and the waves and the particles, and it can be both. It's like, look, I'm not pretending I could explain it any better.
Carter
56:04
None of us could have done it any better, but he was briefed. He didn't know. Yeah.
Corey
56:07
Yeah. I mean, it's not like he was sitting there up all night for the past month, like just really into it because he's into it. That wasn't the case.
Zain
56:13
case. Corey, I'm going back to you on this one. One word strategy, one word strategy for Sanders going forward.
Zain
56:19
Cordiality. I was hoping for the word exit. I'm not going to hear it. Carter.
Carter
56:23
Carter. i was gonna say uh drop out but then i remember that's two words ah
Zain
56:26
ah you can put a hyphen
Zain
56:28
the door when he says one word yeah
Zain
56:29
who cares i'm not even relevant to the show last thing guys stephen carter one thing you're looking forward to next week uh one thing you're reading anything like that well what's what's on your mind please
Zain
56:39
please don't say skiing oh my fucking god you
Zain
56:45
useless you know that right you literally
Carter
56:48
work one day a week i work one or two days a week This is half
Zain
56:50
half of your day.
Carter
56:52
Yeah, I mean, this
Zain
56:53
this doesn't count as work, does it? Corey, don't tell me skiing or mountain biking, please. Or
Carter
56:58
something. I'm looking forward
Corey
56:58
forward to finishing the renovation.
Corey
57:02
that my wife doesn't kill me.
Zain
57:04
These are the whitest people ever. That's a wrap. That's a wrap on episode 572 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Veldry. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we'll see you next time.