Transcript
Zain
0:02
This is the strategist episode 557. My name is Zain Velji with me as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan. Guys, what's up?
Corey
0:12
threw us off. You changed it up there. It's cabinet
Carter
0:15
It is cabinet day. Cabinet day. We will be mocked for our predictions last week.
Corey
0:19
week. Well, hold on. Not predictions. Fantasy cabinets. I'm going to edit in here. I'm going to splice in Zain saying specifically, not predictions. Oh,
Carter
0:28
Oh, very important. And I will
Zain
0:30
will splice in myself
Carter
0:30
myself saying, I still
Zain
0:31
still think they're predictions. Yeah,
Carter
0:33
Yeah, we're still going to be mocked.
Zain
0:34
mocked. Still going to be mocked. You put together, well, we had an episode last week, Fantasy Cabinet. We put, you guys put together your rationales and individuals together. And we'll review that and see where we landed compared to what Justin Trudeau did today. Yeah, in
Corey
0:49
hindsight, way too many wizards and not enough people with 20 charisma. You know, the Fantasy Cabinet was very strange. I do not understand that. man listen
Carter
0:58
if anybody understood what cory just said just stick to the nazi
Zain
1:01
nazi references i don't understand all of your references just
Corey
1:03
just make poorly timed nazi jokes and we'll be fine all right all right okay
Zain
1:07
okay let's move it on to our first segment our first segment i know what you did last week okay let's let's look at let's
Zain
1:14
let's look at your cabinet predictions so these are posted somewhere on our twitter account somewhere so if you want to go take a look at them and then direct message message, or tweet both Corey and Carter for how ignorant they were with their picks. But, Corey, you picked 28 cabinet members. We thought there was going to be 28. In fact, there was 30. 31,
Zain
1:32
Justin Trudeau. Counting Justin Trudeau. So 30 ministers that were picked. Corey, you hit 17 out of the 28. Woo-hiss. And, Stephen Carter, you hit 20 out of 27
Zain
1:43
27 because you thought we did not need foreign affairs. No, I still picked 28, brother.
Corey
1:48
Now, hold on, though. So that's people who ended up in cabinet. Correct. The number
Zain
1:54
number of actual correct predictions.
Zain
1:55
Let me go down that. So the number of actual correct predictions, and I don't want to call it that. So the number of predictions where you were right about the person in the portfolio, Stephen with two, and Corey with three. I can't
Carter
2:07
can't even figure out who my two were. This
Zain
2:09
This is a contextual loss for both of you. I'm going to put it that way. No,
Carter
2:11
No, no, no. No, no, no. We're not accepting that. You're not.
Corey
2:15
not. First of all, fantasy. second of all it's like the olympics i got the most golds carter congratulations on your pile of silvers i'm sorry yeah
Zain
2:25
but uh i think we know who actually predicted this
Zain
2:27
well listen you guys you guys did okay i mean not bad but there frankly were some surprises so let's get into that actually immediately um who were the surprises on cabinet for you guys starting
Carter
2:40
starting off and then then we'll talk about the snubs the biggest the biggest one for me because uh that appears on this list joyce murray well let's
Carter
2:48
let's go with surprises people who oh
Zain
2:49
oh who actually got in got in yeah yeah and then we'll talk about snubs in a second who got in there was a surprise i
Corey
2:54
i don't think any of them were a surprise i think all of them seemed like they were pretty reasonable choices i don't know enough about some of them their resumes seemed relatively light to me i wasn't familiar with the people uh
Corey
3:05
bardish jagger i have no idea uh
Corey
3:07
uh what they've done besides live in thunder bay No, that's not even true. She was actually, no,
Corey
3:12
no, I mean, she was a former political EA and an ousted Tory, as far as I could tell. I don't know anything about her. Now, I'm sure there's a backstory there. But I wouldn't say I was surprised, Zane. I wasn't surprised.
Corey
3:23
None of these were big shockers, in my opinion. Carolyn
Carter
3:25
Carolyn Bennett was mine.
Carter
3:26
Okay. I did not expect Carolyn Bennett to get in. Yeah, you didn't have her on your list. No, she represents kind of an old school to me, and I was
Carter
3:34
was surprised. I thought there were some younger, more talented folks who could come in, but clearly
Carter
3:40
clearly I wasn't making the cabin, but that was a surprise to me. But others like Judy Foote or Jim Carr, Stéphane Dion, Diane Lubith – I still can't say it. Diane,
Corey
3:50
or other. You've got troubles on the pronunciation. I
Carter
3:51
I have a problem with the – okay, you take it. But those people were on my – That's his default position.
Carter
3:56
Those people were on my maybe list. I mean, we talked about them on the podcast. You did.
Zain
4:00
yeah i didn't have uh christy duncan or miriam moncef i don't
Carter
4:03
don't know who those two people are yeah
Carter
4:05
i honestly i don't know who they are yeah
Carter
4:07
right so when we preface saying that we were limited a bit but i
Carter
4:10
i don't know who they are and i so it was for me when we talk about the we had the big stones the little rocks and the grains of sand the
Carter
4:18
the grains of sand changed a little bit yeah
Carter
4:21
the big rocks the ones that were in carolyn bennett is clearly a big rock stefan dion is a big rock um but the
Carter
4:28
the ones you know you didn't and then there was indistinguishable pieces of yeah
Corey
4:31
yeah well i mean yeah i have no idea uh my note for diane le boutelier says nice i don't know who she is and but you know her her region she's from the gaspese so that makes sense to me still on the surface again not really a surprise okay
Zain
4:45
okay so then let's get into what i think you guys want to talk about which is the snubs right the people who we expected to make it on some level or another another that did not and there's one that both of us or both of you guys collectively identified as a rock and that was andrew leslie who's not on this list
Corey
5:01
well okay do you guys want to go into the realm of pure gossip for a second here oh
Corey
5:05
are we bound by any ethics don't
Carter
5:08
don't let steven answer that question
Carter
5:10
the answer is there
Corey
5:12
there is a rumor floating around ottawa right now that andrew leslie was in fact offered a ministry but he turned it down no
Zain
5:22
cory Corey, remind us Andrew Leslie's bio. What did he do? He was a lieutenant general
Corey
5:25
general in the Canadian Armed Forces. He was very senior. I think there was an expectation he would have a senior role either in foreign affairs, defense, public safety, or something of that ilk.
Corey
5:36
And I guess not. I
Zain
5:39
You guys both had him in. You guys both included him as part of your fantasy cabinet. Carter, what is the surprise there lay for you? Is there anything that you can chalk up his snub to? I mean, outside of pure gossip. no
Carter
5:51
no i mean you have to look at when you when you put in the gender balance yeah right you have a 30 chance of getting into cabinet if you are a woman you have a 10 chance of getting into cabinet if you're a man that
Carter
6:01
that is simple numbers i'm not saying that that's right or wrong that is simply the math well
Corey
6:06
well emphasis on simple i mean that's that's not i don't think that's why he was included or not included i
Carter
6:11
i think it's ultimately when people don't get included like that the The easiest thing to look at is
Carter
6:17
you're from the wrong place and you're the wrong gender and maybe you speak the wrong languages. Those are things that get considered when you're making a cabinet. And Andrew Leslie, for whatever reason, he's from the Ottawa region. There's lots of talent there.
Corey
6:31
There's a lot of talent. There's
Carter
6:32
There's a lot of talent in that region.
Carter
6:35
I mean, forgetting the gossip, which is cool, but if he's done that, he's probably never going to get in cabinet.
Corey
6:40
Yeah, you don't get offered twice. Yeah.
Carter
6:44
moving away from the gossip, there
Carter
6:46
there were bound to be qualified people who were left off of out of cabinet. And please keep in mind, I've said qualified people. There are qualified women who are not in this cabinet. There are qualified men who are not in this cabinet.
Carter
6:59
Andrew Leslie is a qualified man. Joyce Murray is a qualified woman. Both of them are not in this cabinet. And both of them, I think, leave you scratching your head. Yeah,
Zain
7:09
Yeah, so tell me – let's go down to Joyce Murray there for a second. Carter, what do you think that equates to? She ran against Trudeau for
Carter
7:17
for the leadership. So she and Karen McCrimmon both ran against Trudeau. That's right, yeah. Neither one of them is included. The only person who ran against Trudeau and got into cabinet was Mark Garneau, and he ran for like seven or eight minutes and then came back in and kind of supported Trudeau.
Corey
7:30
Yeah, but I have a hard time believing that's why they were excluded. I mean that's either very petty. Look, I mean, you can look back and you can say, did Stéphane Dion err by putting Michael Ignatieff in such a prominent position in his shadow cabinet? Okay, that's legitimate. But does anybody think that there was going to be this big Joyce Murray faction, this counterinsurgency against Justin Trudeau? That's just not realistic. That's not practical. Either there was a lot of bad blood that came out of that. And, you know, maybe there was because this looked like it was a coronation and these guys decided to stay in anyhow, right? Right. Or
Corey
8:04
Or or there's other factors at play. And I think you have to say this. I
Carter
8:08
I hope there's other factors at play. Yeah, because I mean, if you look at Joyce Murray, her positions may not align with a modern Justin Trudeau party. Her positions were fairly extreme when she ran for leader. And I think that there's still still extreme. Let's let's talk. What about that explains Joyce Murray. What about Andrew Leslie? Yes. This is a guy who was recruited by this star candidate,
Carter
8:29
star candidate, someone that they put up as an example of. how they would govern leslie
Corey
8:34
leslie vaughn and blair that's like the those were the two
Corey
8:38
gonna go yeah the three wise men from ontario who were excluded all were toted as as stark and i could
Carter
8:43
could see blair though i mean he had some issues uh adam vaughn i'm very surprised with as well now was he defeated
Zain
8:50
defeated olivia chow this time you know and he won in that by-election
Corey
8:53
-election i think we have to also wait to see where some of the rest of this settles we don't know for example who the speaker is going to be we don't know where some of the committee chairmanships are going to come down like i'm not saying that that's as good as cabinet and it's not not neither of those but do
Carter
9:07
do look for mark holland for example yeah
Carter
9:10
yeah to get tapped on the shoulder to take a significant role and maybe andrew leslie's going to be whip it
Carter
9:15
it usually goes to someone from the national capital region because uh they're able to uh be there which is an important role for whip um and maybe that you know maybe there are other things at play that we don't understand throwing
Zain
9:27
throwing out another name to you guys this guy you had on both your lists cory you had him as finance and I mean, he took a lot of flack for this. Seamus O'Regan did not make the cut for cabinet. Well,
Carter
9:36
Well, to be honest, I think he was going to be in cabinet until Justin Trudeau listened to the podcast and listened to the impossible rationale that Corey had for putting him in finance and said, I can't do this. I'm not even going to put him in the cabinet. I'm quite sure about
Corey
9:48
about that. Listen, I continue to think that finance is the most overrated position. We've raised it to this level of mythology. Like all of a sudden, a finance minister is the deputy prime minister in anything but name. The guy has to pick a pair of shoes in a clever fashion to make a point and then make a speech. The job is to sell the budget. In a situation like this where we're not having to pour through line items and say, my God, how are we going to balance, a la Paul Martin, who do you really need as finance minister? I think Treasury Board is a much more important position in this case.
Zain
10:19
One more name I'm going to throw out to you, and take this in context with British Columbia. This is Pamela Goldsmith-Jones, who both of you suggested could get a position in cabinet. She was the former mayor, two-term mayor of West Vancouver, yet she does not get a cabinet position. And B.C. overall only ends up with three cabinet ministers.
Corey
10:38
Hold on with the only.
Corey
10:40
B.C. only deserves, if you're going to give by pure population, three and a half. I mean, it's a rounding down. It's hardly a snub. There were so
Carter
10:50
so many talented women, though, in British Columbia. When we went through ours – So
Corey
10:57
going to be disappointed.
Carter
10:58
Absolutely some are going to be disappointed. But when we went through this, I
Carter
11:02
I always thought that when you look at regions that could make up for some of the gender imbalance that was brought to the table by Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, Prince Edward Island, you
Carter
11:15
you could look to British Columbia and Quebec to do that. And in fact, they did a lot of the gender balancing out of Ontario. Okay,
Zain
11:22
Okay, so I want I we did the surprises. We did the snubs. I know the body's just warm. I mean, it's just just happened. But second guesses. Is there anyone on this list? Personnel wise, not position wise. So I want to be very clear. Anyone on this list personnel wise that you think Justin Trudeau wakes up tomorrow morning and says, I
Zain
11:40
don't know if I should have done that. I don't know if that person actually should be in my cabinet. Corey, do you have your glasses up? So I'm hoping you have something to say. No,
Corey
11:46
No, I don't know if I can say any of them. For the same reason I said no big shockers. I think
Zain
11:51
think I have a hard
Corey
11:51
hard time saying I'm
Corey
11:52
I'm going to have buyer's remorse on any of those. What I do think, however, is that some of these solutions may cause problems for him in the long term broadly. He left a lot of people out. He's kind of created a dissenting group right off the bat. And then more specifically, some of the choices like our new Minister of Natural Resources,
Carter
12:14
Jim Carr. car i i
Corey
12:16
i like i like a lot of what jim car brings to the table i was i was kind of uh making a bit of fun of him today on the radio saying he was um you know he he was an oboist and this is you know this is trudeau's canada now music's our most precious natural resource to build the economy from the heart out that kind of stuff but the fact of the matter is he's got a business background he's been on a lot of boards he does those things but he's from manitoba and that file is hot in in Alberta, and that file is hot in Quebec. And
Carter
12:43
And I think that may have been
Carter
12:45
And British Columbia. And BC. So I'm not sure that this is a name that's going to inspire confidence. That one,
Carter
12:50
Carolyn Bennett, I've already referred to. But the rest, I don't think bring problems, but I guarantee you someone will. Right. Someone's going to talk to the media. In fact, Carolyn Bennett was
Carter
13:01
was quoted today saying that she doesn't
Carter
13:04
doesn't need to use the line, I haven't been briefed on that yet, which
Carter
13:08
which is putting yourself in kind of a difficult spot. And more importantly, putting your colleagues in a difficult spot. A large number of them haven't
Carter
13:16
haven't been briefed on
Zain
13:17
on what their portfolio looks like. Correct. I want to rephrase this question one more time. Is there anyone in or out? Is there anyone out that he would be second-guessing on that he would be hoping that he would have called in? Carter?
Carter
13:28
Listen, when you've got people who are exceptionally talented left out of cabinet, you have to wonder what they're going to be doing. so there'll be a number of people when we talked about those sand pieces i'm looking for a number of people to get parliamentary secretaries moving forward uh and then i was looking for speaker to be some one of these big names that was left out because it's such an important role same with whip well
Corey
13:50
well but speaker is one of those ones is you're gonna have to give it to somebody who only really wants to be speaker once you've been speaker i
Corey
13:57
don't know if anybody's gone from speaker to cabinet has that happened in recent history no
Carter
14:01
no because speakers like the place you you finish Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah.
Zain
14:04
Okay. I want to move it on to our next segment. Our next segment, knee-jerk report card. So it's only been 12 hours, a little bit, what? Yeah,
Zain
14:12
even. Yeah, not even 12 hours since the cabinet has been announced. But I want you guys to give a grade between A and F on the following criteria. And we can discuss them a little bit. So first criteria I'm throwing out there, give us a grade between A and F on overall merit of cabinet. So overall merit of the people on cabinet. Corey,
Zain
14:30
Corey, I'll start with you. Yeah,
Corey
14:31
Yeah, I give it a starfish. This is a Montessori school, and it's too soon to say.
Corey
14:35
They're developing as expected, right? I don't know. I mean, what am I going to say? I mean, none of them put their foot in it, except for perhaps Carolyn Bennett a little today. You have paper to judge, so judge on paper. Well, on paper, it's fine. It's not just fine. It's exceptional. It's a very good cabinet. It's
Carter
14:50
It's a B+. Okay. It's a B+, because, you know, Corey won't take a position because he doesn't want to be judged later. But I will take a position, and I'm used to being judged. I think it's a B+, in terms of talent. I'm quite happy with him.
Zain
15:01
Give me a grade between A and F on this criteria, which is diversity. Now, I know there's been a lot of talk about having two aboriginals and four Indo-Canadians, but we don't have anyone who's black or anyone who's from Asian descent. So give me your grade. And I'm not trying to put a thumb on the scale by giving that comment. Well, you kind of did. But I'm pointing out the fact in a sense. Give me your grade, and you may be able to make a counterpoint to that, but give me your grade on what you feel like diversity in this cabinet is. Oh,
Carter
15:25
Oh, I think you cannot get any more diverse than this.
Carter
15:28
You've got a blind Paralympian who's now the Minister of Sport.
Corey
15:35
quadriplegic Minister of Veteran Affairs. I mean, there is
Carter
15:38
is a lot of— You've got a Sikh who's the Minister of National Defense who served to the level of Lieutenant Colonel.
Corey
15:44
Yeah, very cool. Come
Carter
15:46
Come on. Anybody who's looking at this and saying, oh, they missed X group or Y group is
Carter
15:52
is missing the bigger picture, sure which is i agree with trudeau when he said that this looks like canada with the exception of wow i
Carter
16:00
i don't think canada is quite this diverse well
Corey
16:03
well here's the thing there's 180 countries in the world there are many different ethnicities that are going to be left out in some way shape or form and i'm sure it would be yes ideal in a perfect world if you could just flip somebody's ethnicity or sexual orientation or what have you but come on i mean i think this has to be by any reasonable standard the most diverse cabinet we've ever had that's not to say there's not not room for improvement but yeah i mean great on the curve of the times it's an a right uh maybe it's maybe it's a starfish plus if we're back in the montessori school haha
Zain
16:33
haha okay let's go to regionality give me your grade on a to f based on simply the metric of regionality how did trudeau do carter every
Carter
16:42
every region is represented um so i guess you have to we got two two um ministers
Carter
16:47
you know we're used to i i think you're gonna have to give them at least again the A B+.
Carter
16:53
seemed to care about that. I mean, a lot. You've got Hunter Tutu coming from the territories. You've got even PEI, which both of us left out, Corey. Because it's... Because it's PEI, let's be honest. We have
Corey
17:06
have listeners in PEI. I want you to know that. How many...
Carter
17:09
There's 200,000 people in PEI total. Yeah, and 30
Corey
17:12
30 of them download the episode. I'm
Carter
17:13
I'm just saying, I'd rather keep them angry with us and suck up to Labrador.
Corey
17:19
Very reasonable. Well, look, I think it's a B, maybe even a B minus because, well, it has every province. And even though I was telling you guys to pump the brakes on the BC and the Alberta stuff. You're
Carter
17:29
You're going to reverse course? No, the
Corey
17:31
the fact is when you look at them in aggregate, you start to say, all right, well, that starts to look like a bit of a disparity. And I think BC and Alberta have a legitimate claim between the two to a national one. And I think this is ultimately thinking that needs to change out east.
Corey
17:44
They're either looking at us as provinces or they're defining the region in a funny way, in my opinion. in because nobody in Alberta identifies with Manitoba at all. No.
Corey
17:52
Don't full stop. We don't think of ourselves in the same region as Manitoba. Many of us think of ourselves in the same region as BC, but
Corey
17:58
but for the most part, we just think of ourselves as ourselves and
Corey
18:01
you can't kind of give an extra one to Manitoba and say, you know, West, you're covered and that's why you lose a few points for me. Now on the same front, I think that the Maritimes, every
Corey
18:13
every province got one, but at that point that's four for the read i you know that was going to happen because they got 33 seats i just don't love it i think they should have had three for the for atlanta canada but you know what uh that will just get me abused from atlanta canadian so you know what let's just add another seat to cabinet that's my suggestion make
Zain
18:29
make carter anything else on regionality that that that caught your eye or that caught your attention based on what you saw not
Carter
18:36
not really i mean uh i
Carter
18:37
i guess one thing is that in
Carter
18:39
in in our cabinets we were kind of uh balancing
Carter
18:42
balancing gender a little bit differently out of british columbia instead of balancing it out of ontario um
Carter
18:48
it's a fairly ontario centric cabinet uh as you just added up here too it's 11 11 yeah so but
Corey
18:55
but i mean 11 in a cabinet of 31 including the prime minister for a part of it's like they're a third of the country they did a pretty good job of balancing i
Corey
19:02
don't think you can fault them on the number of ontario
Carter
19:04
ontario ministers i mean we had nine or something like that yeah
Corey
19:06
yeah i don't think you can fault them on the number of quebec ministers I think they did a pretty good
Zain
19:12
Let's move it on to the actual ministries itself. Now, we've seen some notable additions in some of the verbiage and some of the nomenclature of the ministries.
Zain
19:21
Give us a grade, Corey, A to F, on what you think of some of these ministries, some of the changes, whether they're nuanced or not, that have happened with the ministries themselves. Oh, I see. I
Corey
19:31
I think when you do these kind of changes, you can potentially raise expectations that can be dangerous. And I'll tell you, in particular, like Indigenous and Northern Affairs makes sense. Okay. You like that? I like that. I think that changes.
Carter
19:43
changes. Well, it's a hell of a lot better than we were a decade ago. Yeah.
Carter
19:45
Where we were still as Indian and Northern Affairs. Right. Yeah.
Corey
19:48
Yeah. I mean, I have no problem with that. Where I think he's maybe set some expectations and set some problems for himself is environment and climate change. Because now you either carry that forever or you have to be the prime minister at some point to drop climate change as a ministry, which sounds
Corey
20:02
very political. and in the same vein refugees added to immigration i get it i totally get it and i think that there is a need for that but i think that that need could have been addressed in a different fashion
Carter
20:13
i'll jump in on one give us your
Zain
20:15
your grade first and then we'll jump in on it yeah i'm
Carter
20:17
i'm gonna give them a c you're
Zain
20:18
you're gonna give them c as well i
Carter
20:19
i don't like this tinkering i mean i think that some of them needed to be tinkered with i think that indigenous people is better than aboriginal um but families
Carter
20:28
families families children and social development yeah
Carter
20:31
families all families like which families like what are we talking about here it doesn't make sense to me cory touched on the other one so i'm not going to go through them refugees will cause some problems um well
Corey
20:43
services i don't get it i mean i sure okay what
Carter
20:46
about innovation i can't remember whatever but the
Corey
20:49
the other one that i wanted to touch on because i think it's important is democratic reform to democratic institutions correct and what i think is weird about that is that this is a prime minister who's promised an awful lot of democratic reform yeah
Corey
20:59
you know i mean just keep it
Corey
21:00
yeah i don't i don't i don't see the problem with it and so i don't know why you changed it yeah
Corey
21:05
yeah that's interesting there's a rationale and i'm sure somebody's going to tweet it what
Zain
21:08
what do you think the risk is of of these heightened expectations do you feel like it's by adding some of these words it places an immediacy to them or it places a frame on them to to solve those parts of the issue first like climate change you
Corey
21:21
you know what my problem is you look these things all need to be addressed. All of the words that they've tacked on, I'll call the tack on ones, need to be addressed. My concern is when you drop them. So as Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, whether you be four years, eight years, 12 years more, are
Corey
21:34
are you going to be carrying around these forever? And when does this end? Do you add it every time there's a hot issue? And one of the things about the ministries is that they're broad and they're issue-based. They're not, or sorry, they're broad and they're topic-based. They're not issue-based. And that to me is an unwelcome change. Yeah,
Carter
21:51
Yeah, I think the more specific you become, the
Carter
21:53
the more you can kind of almost exclude, too.
Corey
21:57
So imagine you were, for example, to illustrate the Minister of National Revenue and Income Tax Increases. Right there, you've kind of baked into it your approach. Right, right,
Carter
22:06
right, right. And you're thinking around
Corey
22:07
around it, and you've put your thumb on the scale in a funny way. I just don't know why you would do that.
Carter
22:13
Refugees were important and are important, but what about other forms of immigration? Right. You're putting – you're just emphasizing some words. I'm not sure I want to do that.
Zain
22:24
Right. So tell me this. Any credence – should we pay any credence to the fact that we do not have a deputy prime minister? No, I mean – We didn't have one for a while. Yeah, I mean deputy
Corey
22:33
deputy prime minister to me is kind of a silly position. The only deputy prime minister I have strong memories of is Sheila Copps, and it was mostly for the jokes made about it all. When Chrétien's out of the country, all of a sudden his plane breaks down or something like that, and Sheila's in charge for one more day. I just don't think it's a great position to have in our parliamentary system. Prime Minister, primus inter pares, right? First among equals. And then you've got second among equals and third and fourth? Like, why? It doesn't make any sense. There's
Carter
23:00
There's an order of succession as well. Now, Carter, you had predicted – You're making this like they're all equal. They're not all equal. There's an order of succession, and that order was articulated clearly today. And
Carter
23:09
And the second place person – I'd have to find it here. Let me see if I got it actually. No, we're
Corey
23:13
we're not the United States. An
Corey
23:15
of succession here means very little. There still is
Carter
23:17
is an order of succession.
Zain
23:18
I'm going to let you guys go until we lose all of our audience.
Zain
23:21
That's my new M.O. These
Corey
23:22
These are the kind of order of precedence and the nonsense that keeps the Canadian Heraldry Institution busy. But it doesn't have any bearing on that.
Zain
23:29
Stephen Carter, you had in your fantasy draft, you had a deputy prime minister. What was your rationale to that? And are you disappointed or should we pay any credence to the fact
Corey
23:38
fact there isn't one today? Sorry, before we jump on that point. It's just another
Corey
23:41
Before we jump off that point, that precedence you're talking about is based on time served. It's not at all based on how important they think it is. It's how long they've
Carter
23:48
they've been in the league. No, there is an actual succession plan. So Ralph Gale. Should the prime minister be
Carter
23:54
be unable to complete their good reason? Ralph Gale first
Corey
23:57
first elected in 1974 for a term. That's why he's number one. Then you get to Lawrence
Carter
24:00
Lawrence McCauley, who was elected in 1988. I'm going to find the real one. And the geekdom continues. And while
Zain
24:05
while you do that, I'm going to move it on to our next part. Okay, our next one. And I think this is where we're going to have the most debate, I hope. It's placement. placement so where these individuals were placed what
Zain
24:16
what grade do you give zane i'd
Corey
24:17
i'd like to go back to order of precedence because who wants to talk about placement that's not important i know i mean he's being a dick to me he needs to be a dick to
Carter
24:25
to you you mean the placement what do you mean i
Carter
24:27
effectively where these where these individuals were
Zain
24:29
were placed the portfolio they were
Carter
24:30
were given yeah i mean there's a little bit of a random you could have used the 31 side and die and you could have come up with these things but there's there's a few interesting ones which i want to get into how cory did his to be honest yeah
Zain
24:41
yeah knowing cory he he spends his evening developing a 31-sided
Zain
24:46
and then said you know what i need to make this die 28 sides okay
Zain
24:48
let's give me a grade on placement though and and where these individuals place in regards to their portfolios carter what
Carter
24:54
what do you think i mean to let's
Carter
24:56
let's take a look at what rachel notley did with her cabinet she went she played against strength right
Carter
25:00
right so our health minister is actually an education expert right
Carter
25:05
uh you know there's there's a finance minister
Carter
25:08
a social worker right
Carter
25:09
um like these these types of things uh you played against type you hire you put in people who are really strong but they don't bring biases to the table they don't bring a point of view that is like oh well this is how i'm going to fix this they come into a portfolio they are proven people who can fix problems but they're not bringing a bias well the people in this particular cabinet for
Carter
25:28
for the most part are going into their strengths and that means they're bringing with them their biases on how to what the problems are and how to fix them so
Corey
25:35
so let's Let's look at the Alberta cabinet for a minute. The people who got prominence there were not based in their roles in the past in the private sector. They valued political experience above all else because they had so many political novices. So you had Sarah Hoffman, as you mentioned, education expert, sure, but elected official. You had Joe Sisi, social worker, sure, but elected official. What's happened is the liberals have decided the elected official thing's not their problem. They're not worried about political expertise. They're worried about expertise, expertise, and they went the other way on that. And that's part of the whole Team Trudeau messaging going back to the start. Yeah,
Carter
26:07
Yeah, I think there's a strength to the way Rachel did it and a weakness to the way that Justin has done it. So I'm going to give him a C. You're
Zain
26:14
You're going to give him a C. Corey, what do you think in terms
Corey
26:17
placement? I think a B. I think it's fine. It's a nice mix of the two, in my opinion. I'd probably be more generous than a B, except with Carter giving a C, I'd look over the top at an A.
Zain
26:28
It's so tough to tell. Let's talk about some of the interesting ones, right? So the one that sticks out to a lot of people is what many would call the flip-flop between McKenna and Dion. Dion taking foreign affairs and McKenna, who has tremendous experience in that realm, is now our environment and climate change minister. What do you make of that, Corey? I
Corey
26:46
think that we all know that climate change is going to be a very international affair over the next couple of months. It makes sense you have somebody very strong on foreign affairs in climate change. If that's a portfolio that you've created, that absolutely makes sense.
Carter
26:59
sense. But why not
Zain
27:00
not give Dion climate change? I'm going to ask the obvious question.
Carter
27:01
question. Because it's so important to put someone like that into your foreign affairs department so you can send them away and trust them. Because if you put
Corey
27:08
put Stéphane Dion in environment, it becomes Stéphane Dion's environmental plan, not Justin Trudeau's environmental plan. Exactly.
Corey
27:14
His brand is too strongly tied. And on top of that, Stephen's
Corey
27:18
Stephen's absolutely right. This is exactly why Joe Clark ended up in foreign affairs as well. He has a bit of a statesman-like feel to him now that he's a former leader. He's got a bit of world weariness to him. And in fact, he's been environment minister, so he brings into foreign affairs the environment lens. So just as we have, just
Corey
27:33
just as you've talked about it as a mismatch, I think that it's two sides of a coin that he's built, that he's ready to flip in Paris in December.
Zain
27:41
December. Our placement of someone like Ralph Goodale. Carter, you had listed him as a potential 2IC deputy prime minister. He gets public safety and emergency preparedness.
Zain
27:50
Is that a slight to him? Is that something?
Zain
27:52
No, you don't think
Carter
27:53
think so? It's a really important role. role it's got uh changes that are required immediately uh to bill 51 um this is an important role that that that needs to hit the ground running ralph goodell was put in that role for a reason um the same reason that we we had uh in
Carter
28:10
in public safety like an andrew leslie in our you know in my uh fantasy draft cabinet you want someone who's super strong yeah
Corey
28:18
yeah i i think that ralph goodell might see it as a slight i'd be very curious to hear any kind of grumblings I don't
Carter
28:23
don't think he's going to grumble. I
Carter
28:25
I don't think Ralph Goodale is a grumbler.
Corey
28:27
I don't think he's a public grumbler, but I think that if he's slighted, I think people will be talking about it. I don't think he should feel slighted. I think that's a very important position. Yeah.
Corey
28:36
And especially for all the reasons you talked about, C-51. But public safety is kind of the vanguard of those difficult, awkward, let's not talk about it issues, about surveillance, about technology, about all of these things that are rolling out in a pretty unsafe world. and having an adult and the guy who looks like an adult to all the world there is not just important for the country but it's important for the liberal party tell
Zain
28:58
tell us about mark garneau both of you had listed him as a prospective natural resources minister you both had considered it to be quite an inspired selection he ends up with transportation steven carter or cory yeah
Corey
29:10
yeah i think transportation makes a lot of sense uh we talked about him for natural resources because we worried about natural resources getting to market transportation also has a big part in that well
Corey
29:19
they're not in charge of the pipelines at a certain point it hits the coast and it's got to get on a boat and it's got to go overseas it's
Carter
29:26
it's got to do so safely and
Corey
29:27
and marine safety is part of transportation so
Carter
29:29
so you want to go to more than a guy who's gone up to space where the first goal is safety every day then
Zain
29:35
somebody who right you know when you're talking about
Zain
29:37
point it's an interesting point when you're talking
Carter
29:38
talking about you know our tankers safe you can put mark garnell up there and say let me tell you let me tell you about safe well
Carter
29:45
well he's not just an an astronaut he's also a naval captain so
Corey
29:47
understands an awful lot of that world as it starts to get very dicey this
Carter
29:52
this is just simply the other side of the same coin that we were putting garneau into uh into natural resources this is the exact same coin okay
Zain
29:59
okay so you know i i've talked to you and i've tried to challenge you a bit about some of this placement but let's talk about one that i know certainly cory and i agree with which is our good friend kent hair yeah he gets veterans affairs and associate minister of national defense cory i like it i know you do too yeah
Corey
30:12
yeah i think it makes sense i i still liked him in in public safety uh maybe because it is so high touch as we were talking about maybe that's what excluded him but he would have been able to justifiably take an argument forward that said i've been there i understand the downside when i'm telling you that this is a trade-off that needs to happen i have a bit of legitimacy but here he is in veteran affairs which is a very active portfolio can we say that i mean even today the globe and mail had something on the front page about suicides of veterans and whatnot very
Carter
30:43
after the way it was mistreated by the last government
Corey
30:45
government exactly and if there's one thing we all know about Kent Hare is that that is just not who he is he would never mistreat people like that in fact he's the nicest guy in the world he's the most open and social guy in the world he is such a breath of fresh air for this ministry and I can absolutely understand why he would be there last
Zain
31:00
last two episodes of Kent Hare Show Carter you're listen we love Kent Carter I'm
Carter
31:05
I'm going to get in trouble I love Kent right
Carter
31:07
right can we just say that just right off the bat we all know Kent Kent's a buddy a
Zain
31:11
a but and then he's here
Carter
31:12
here we go and you know what we say
Carter
31:14
everything before the kid um and
Zain
31:15
and the air quotes now go ahead he
Carter
31:19
he has a super difficult disability he is a quadriplegic uh that this is not something that's not known this is a high touch ministry as you guys both alluded to just seconds ago and that's going to require him to be in many different places where the veterans are well
Corey
31:34
well look many of
Corey
31:35
veterans are suffering from similar disabilities they
Carter
31:37
they are but i mean i work is
Carter
31:39
is it wrong of me so let me ask you a question is one of kent's best buds you're one of kent's buddies yeah right oh yeah is
Carter
31:46
is it fair of me to worry that they are putting an undue stress on this gentleman you're
Corey
31:51
you're putting me in an awkward spot either i don't care about my friend or or what look is
Carter
31:55
is it fair of me because maybe maybe i'm just the world's biggest dick someone will tell me on twitter but
Corey
32:02
have no doubt let me put it this way i have absolutely no doubt in my mind kent is able to do this willing to do this and wants to do this of course
Carter
32:09
course he does and
Corey
32:10
and i should he
Carter
32:11
he do this i think he should i wanted him as treasury board i don't know because he could he can stay in ottawa and he could do all the things you were talking about without putting himself at risk i
Corey
32:21
i don't just think he should do this i think that that's the kind of model that we need and inspiration we need for veterans who come back who maybe have disabilities of their own now guess what the minister of
Corey
32:32
a disability that's probably worse than yours and look what he's done he didn't sit there and say oh shit this happened to me and life is over and that is great that is not just great i'm
Carter
32:41
i'm not disagreeing i mean that is not my point
Corey
32:44
point that is not just great that could save lives i mean full stop that could save lives i
Carter
32:48
i won't be a dick in this situation we
Zain
32:49
we will talk about this more but let's just agree we're happy with kent you know we are homegrown in alberta let's just pay we are very
Zain
32:55
one more second one more second on alberta let's talk about armadillo he being named uh minister of infrastructure i'm I'm so excited about that. Because that was a big policy plank, and now it resides with the minister in Edmonton. That's
Corey
33:08
he is a former bus driver, and our minister of infrastructure provincially is also a former bus driver. So I guarantee you we're going to have really good lane widths. We're going to have great places to stop and pull over and pick up passengers. Everything is going to get better. And those ministerial
Corey
33:22
ministerial budgets are going to be an exact change.
Zain
33:27
But we're happy about that, right? Oh, listen, let me tell you.
Carter
33:30
Go ahead. Alberta has gotten short-shift on infrastructure spending for a long, long time. Part of it has been that everybody just assumes that our streets are paved with gold because we're the rich oil province. We're not that rich, first
Carter
33:43
first of all. And secondly—
Corey
33:45
Oh, yeah, we are, but we just don't pay any taxes. But still,
Corey
33:48
us money, rest of Canada, if
Carter
33:50
Okay, don't undermine my whole argument.
Carter
33:52
Right in the middle. Finish your point.
Carter
33:53
point. My point is simply this. We're no longer going to be short-shifted. This is an infrastructure minister who will treat Edmonton and Calgary the way that we deserve to be treated in a sea of large cities from Ottawa to Montreal to Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver. And I probably left out Winnipeg and I'm probably going to get in trouble.
Zain
34:12
Listen, I mean, there's so many other ministers on here that we can spend time talking about in terms of placement. I know someone's going to tweet us and say, oh, why don't you talk about the guy or the person that I want to talk about? I mean, one hat tip I will give is to Miriam Monsef. She becomes the first Muslim cabinet minister, first female Muslim cabinet minister, especially considering what was going on in this campaign with Muslims. I think that's really, really cool. Being a Muslim myself, I think that's pretty awesome. But quickly, anyone else that you guys wanted to talk about in terms of placement or should we move it on here? I mean, Lawrence
Corey
34:41
Lawrence McCauley in agriculture. I think agriculture is another one of those trends or fields that's going to be bigger in the future just based on all of these things. I think the liberals have a problem with GMOs in that there's many, I'm going to call them thoughtful liberals who know GMOs are just fine. And then there's many people who I'm going to call paranoid, tinfoil, hat-wearing liberals. I thought you called them the NDP.
Corey
35:02
Who don't like GMOs at all. But, you know, if we're going to be evidence-based and, hey, we have a ministry of science now, so let's be evidence-based, there's no reason to fear it. I think we need somebody who can just say, like, listen, I've seen it all. I'm not going to overreact to this. I kind of like that. Carter,
Zain
35:16
Carter, any one person you wanted to give a shout out to and talk about quickly?
Carter
35:21
I think Jody Wilson-Raybould in Justice is a big deal. Out of BC. It is a big deal. Women, First Nations, very exciting. Yeah.
Carter
35:30
That's all I got. That
Zain
35:30
That should be great. Okay, last one I want you to rank on very quickly. A to F on the sometimes not talked about metric of loyalty. Where do you rank these individuals based on their relationships with Trudeau? I mean, I know a line of sight may not be clear, But from your general estimation, what do you think?
Corey
35:46
I think it's an A. I don't think you get into cabinet if you're not an A. I think, especially
Corey
35:50
especially given that he's just come off, he's won this thing. Everybody's feeling pretty good. It's an A.
Carter
35:54
Well, and everybody, I think, feels like they won because
Carter
35:57
because of Justin Trudeau, which is a very important thing. I mean, again, here in Alberta, there's not a cabinet minister or a caucus member that doesn't go, wow, I won because of Rachel Notley. And if Rachel Notley wants me to do this, then this is what I do. What
Zain
36:10
What I do. That loyalty is built in, you
Carter
36:12
you think, at this point. That loyalty is built in at this stage. And that takes me to a point that I wanted to make about this caucus or cabinet. We've been very positive about the cabinet. But the stuff I've seen on social media, the way that people are reacting to this cabinet overall, it's like this cabinet is the best cabinet in the history of mankind. And it is not. Wax poetic. I'm
Zain
36:35
excited to be Canadian. That sort of stuff.
Carter
36:37
And I felt a little bit of that today,
Zain
36:39
too. You know, my
Carter
36:40
It hasn't, guys. Guys, in three to six months, this cabinet is going to be working and making decisions, and we're all going to be as pissed as ever. And you're going to be on one or
Carter
36:49
the other side of the decision. We're going to be as pissed as ever. I
Corey
36:50
I get it. No, I'm going to echo that. I think this is – You think so too,
Corey
36:54
Let's call this what it is, a giant communications win for Justin Trudeau. But this is not necessarily – like this is not our new elders who will lead us into a golden age, right? I mean this is a cabinet of smart people who hopefully will make smart decisions more often than stupid decisions. I mean,
Carter
37:10
mean, there's somewhere in here, there's a Pierre Polyev, right?
Carter
37:13
right? Somewhere in here. It's only going
Zain
37:15
going to take some time to figure out who it is. That's fair. That's fair. I still think it's a win for some people who are probably people of faith or minorities, you know, et cetera. There is representation in cabinet that people in a long time have not seen. And for the first time— And
Carter
37:28
And apparently some atheists, too, because there was a
Corey
37:29
a bunch of people who affirmed. Yeah, there was a bunch of Bible stuff people were mad about. Anyways, I mean, who knows? Here
Zain
37:34
Here we go. Last segment, over-under. Are you guys ready? Let's do this. Okay. One to ten. Give me a rating of your cabinet. Stephen Carter, what happened today? One to ten. Seven. Corey?
Zain
37:44
You have one move that you can make on cabinet with the existing crop of people. You can move one person to a different ministry. Who do you move where? Carter?
Carter
37:52
I probably move Carolyn Bennett out, and I move Andrew Leslie in, but I'm not sure that they get the same spot.
Corey
37:59
Corey? Hold on. So you're allowed to bring someone in? I
Carter
38:01
I just did that. He just
Corey
38:01
just did it. I'm going to let him do the same. Either do that
Corey
38:04
or move the spot. I'm good. I want to bring Leslie in. I think I bring Leslie in. I put him into public
Corey
38:09
public safety and I find a new place for Ralph.
Zain
38:12
Let me ask my original question now. If you could shift positions for someone, what would you shift them to with the existing crop
Corey
38:18
I think that I would put Kent Hare into public safety. I
Zain
38:21
I really like that. You're sticking to that. Yeah. Despite the fact that you think Veterans Affairs is good, you'd move into public safety. Carter?
Carter
38:28
I'm going to decline my right to make that move.
Zain
38:31
The most inspired pick in your point of view, personnel-wise. Personnel-wise, that's in this list, the most inspired pick. not their position but their the personnel and the person themselves cory
Corey
38:42
i love amarjeet so he you
Zain
38:43
you like so i think
Corey
38:44
that's a great pick i i love especially when we're talking about that conflict between uh terror legislation and not having a guy who was wrongfully held for two years for terrorism in india my god so great i mean not great for him not
Corey
38:58
great for him but ceases helped get him out amnesty international helped get him out his story is the counterpoint to all of the The sky is falling chicken little bullshit out there.
Corey
39:10
Yeah, you like that
Carter
39:11
that story, eh? Love that story. I mean, she's, you
Carter
39:15
know, she's the Minister of Sport and Persons with Disability. I mean, she's a blind Paralympian. This is a big deal. So
Zain
39:22
So this leads into my next question. The best marriage between person and ministry. Carter, you may have the same answer there, but Corey, I'll go with you first. The best marriage that you see in this cabinet, inspired, I guess I should say, in your point of view. Yeah, I don't know, inspired by Dominic LeBlanc, government house leader. Which
Corey
39:37
predicted. That's what I
Zain
39:38
I predicted. Give yourself
Corey
39:40
know exactly that's why you said it. But I think it makes an awful lot of sense because it allows him to have line of sight and be the right hand to Justin Trudeau in the house.
Carter
39:49
Jody Wilson-Raybould, Injustice. You like that, yeah. Very strong move. Sends a real signal. In
Zain
39:55
estimation, the most questionable pick, Carter?
Carter
39:58
I'm going to go with Lawrence McCauley in Agriculture and Agri-Foods.
Corey
40:04
oh the rebuttal i mean
Carter
40:06
mean and the rebuttal
Carter
40:06
rebuttal to come on baby let's put a you know the mccain family they're in charge cory
Zain
40:11
cory hogan the most questionable pick in your mind yeah
Corey
40:14
yeah i think it's got to be well i don't know that's not even fair i was about to say something that wasn't fair at all i i don't know that you should
Carter
40:22
should say it that's why the people are
Corey
40:23
are there but it's not fair i think most questionable has to be jim carr for the reasons you think
Zain
40:28
no i can get behind that too and and your rising star in cabinet who is do you see on this list that could really be the rising star in justin trudeau's cabinet i
Zain
40:39
think kirstie duncan could really surprise the hell out who's in science i believe can i tell you why i like her very quickly very
Corey
40:44
very quickly studied geology and anthropology geology anthropology kind of this mixed thing taught meteorology and climatology then taught herself virology like it shows a curious mind she's got a phd i think she's an awesome choice for minister of science but i also think she's proven through her past work she can learn pretty much anything like a pro carter
Carter
41:04
oh god that's a good one rising star marie
Carter
41:08
marie claude bibu yeah
Carter
41:10
yeah the hell okay
Carter
41:13
didn't want to pick somebody who'd been kind of been there i mean scott bryson to me yeah
Carter
41:17
is gonna be a
Carter
41:20
uh but i think we expect that yeah
Carter
41:22
i'm talking about rising star here yeah i'm gonna pick her last
Zain
41:25
last Last question. One person on the outside that you would like to see or that you think will be on the inside in two years' time when Justin Trudeau makes his shuffle. One person currently on the outside that will be on the inside. Well, we've talked about Leslie so much. Give me
Corey
41:38
me another person. Let's move him aside. Randy Wassano. I think it's almost certainly a lock for Cabinet within two years.
Corey
41:48
Yeah? Oh, yeah. You
Carter
41:49
You can't skip over Adam Vaughn.
Carter
41:51
He comes in at some point. For the full term.
Zain
41:53
We'll leave it there. there. That's a wrap on episode 557 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velji. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we'll see you next time.