Transcript
SPEAKER_02
0:02
This is The Strategist, episode 544. My name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, how are you?
SPEAKER_02
0:10
Well, for 8, wait, no, it's 7 a.m. 7
Carter
0:13
7 a.m., baby. Holy cow.
SPEAKER_02
0:15
7 a.m. on a Sunday. This is exactly the time we should be doing this. Every
Carter
0:18
Every week from now on, The Strategist, 7 a.m. Are
SPEAKER_02
0:21
Are you committing to that?
Carter
0:22
No, not at all. I'm just,
Carter
0:24
you know, I was just thinking how bad that would be. You
SPEAKER_02
0:27
You would never commit to a hot take on recorded medium ever.
SPEAKER_02
0:33
No, that doesn't sound like him at all. That does not sound like Carter at all.
SPEAKER_02
0:38
Guys, what else do we want to talk about? Debates. There's a debate in Calgary, September 17th.
Carter
0:44
There is, in fact, a debate on Calgary on September 17th, the Globe and Mail's economic debate, and that is really exciting for strategists.
SPEAKER_02
0:53
Very exciting. Now, it's a debate. we like debates debates in calgary we're in calgary so
SPEAKER_02
1:00
so that means live show live
Corey
1:02
show oh i think we just agreed to do it right here right
Carter
1:05
right on the phone right right today at seven o'clock in the morning live
SPEAKER_02
1:10
people know that the show is unscripted that that that shows them how unscripted we
SPEAKER_02
1:15
we have none of the logistics in place uh we're doing a live show uh we'll figure out the venue at a certain point most likely my basement um but no it just we will have a live show of these strategists on september 17th so mark your calendars i'm sure they're already marked for the debate but mark your calendars if you are in calgary we'll have more information on tickets and venue very shortly yeah
Corey
1:39
yeah that's right yeah and uh we're going to we're going to watch the debate we're
Corey
1:43
we're going to apply people with alcohol so we seem funnier and then we're going to pass judgment
Carter
1:47
judgment it's a two-hour debate so there'll be lots of time to drink which will make make the show seem hilarious by the time we get to record.
SPEAKER_02
1:55
It's a two-hour debate on the economy, so there'll be tons of time to drink, is what you mean.
Carter
2:01
Oh, we're going to bring out the biggest of the political geeks. It's going to be the best day ever.
SPEAKER_02
2:05
Bring your calculators, friends. Okay, let's move it on to our first segment. Our first segment, Feel the Bane.
SPEAKER_02
2:13
Guys, it is about a week since our last episode. Are you eating a little bit of crow? Hold on.
Carter
2:20
on. Are you bringing up that both of us said that this was not going to have the – or no, that I said. Did you say that it was going to have the impact on
SPEAKER_02
2:27
on politics? Yeah, I think we both did.
SPEAKER_02
2:29
That's why I'm asking both of you. Are you collectively serving yourself some crow right now?
Carter
2:34
I think the question was, was Nigel Wright's testimony. And I think that Nigel Wright's testimony wasn't – Way
Carter
2:41
Yeah, well, that's what I'm going with. I mean, come on now. I work in politics. But the – I think it was Benjamin Perrin.
Carter
2:50
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, his testimony was dynamite.
Carter
2:52
dynamite. I mean, it just absolutely skewered words that Corey Tanik had said earlier about Ray Novak.
Carter
3:03
Ray Novak would know about this payment and not tell the Prime Minister. That's Corey Tanik saying that. That
Corey
3:08
That was a really bad choice of words. And, yeah, I'd say our last episode, we were reacting to the first couple of days of Novak. We did both give the disclaimer so
Corey
3:18
so far. We could see what else came out. And
Corey
3:21
what else came out was that Novak knew about this. And that's a big problem for the conservatives because they
Corey
3:26
they were pretty adamant that he did not. And so it makes retroactively everything that's been said by the conservatives about this look pretty poor. I mean, this is the shifting explanations on this have gotten to become a bit much. It's hard to imagine at this point that there was anybody in that office who didn't know about it. Well,
Carter
3:45
Well, there's been two definitive columns, from my point of view, that have really taken this to a brand new level. Andrew Coyne wrote one of the best political columns I've seen, talking about how maybe we've misjudged Harper. It was outstanding. And then Scott Reed really wrote a paper, a political paper on why you can spin, you can color, you can push, but you can't lie. And
Carter
4:10
And those two those two articles become if you haven't read them, strategist faithful, go and find them. I mean, our strategist faithful, of course, have read them, but they were outstanding and they are now the defining papers. They are the defining narrative of the of the Duffy affair. And I think that that is is creating havoc for the conservatives. You can see that, by the way, their spin machine is really, I
Carter
4:37
I think, really clunking on this one. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02
4:40
Yeah, you're you're using terms like define. Is this trial? Is this political fallout? Is this story starting to define the campaign or is it way too early for us to say that right now? Well,
Corey
4:53
Well, I'll tell you this. I'm not ready to back away entirely from the notion that this isn't going to have a huge impact. Looking at the polls for the past week, they're showing a bit of softness for the Conservatives, down a point, maybe two points. But we're not seeing any kind of big
Corey
5:07
big movement or rush away from the Tories. The
Carter
5:11
The problem for the Conservatives never was, though, how far they would drop. They're faithful. They're still faithful. Their problem is what's available to them. So they go from having a top end. I think I've used 38% on the show. I think their top end has now dropped almost to where they are.
Carter
5:27
So that's their bigger problem. Not that they're in free fall. Someone wrote that they were in free fall. There was a five-point drop. Made
Carter
5:34
Made me want to kill myself. One poll does not free fall make.
Carter
5:39
they are losing their top end. They're losing their potential vote. And that's where things are really going to sting. Yeah,
Corey
5:44
Yeah, let me build on that. When we talk about, so there's the horse race polls and everybody knows where everybody is in a horse race poll at any given time because the media pays for them. They're easy to understand. People like horse race polls, but strategists look at the polls and they ask a few additional questions as part of our regular stable. So we're not just talking about who you're voting for, but who you're willing to vote for.
Corey
6:08
That's an important one. We want to know who's an accessible voter to you and those are the people you're going to target your messages at. we also want to know who you think stands a chance because at the end of the day you don't vote for the loser you vote for somebody who you think has a chance in your riding so riding level polls will uh will often ask who who's viable who who can actually win this thing and
Corey
6:28
and right now what the conservatives have a problem with is not who's voting for them now it's
Corey
6:34
who uh who's accessible and i think increasingly whether or not they're viable yeah
Carter
6:39
yeah i think that you're going to start I mean, it
Carter
6:42
it is now too far into this election campaign for us to be in a position to say it's too early. We have moved past it's too early or it's so early. We are now in the campaign. People are starting to turn on. It is the end of August, and this stuff is starting to matter because how you come out of
Carter
7:01
of the Labor Day weekend is
Carter
7:03
is going to define you, I think, until Thanksgiving. Yeah.
Carter
7:06
So that is a significant period of time. And
Carter
7:11
really, the conservatives have lost the narrative.
SPEAKER_02
7:14
So, you know, you talk about their ceiling and their vote ceiling. And Corey, thanks for that explanation on polling. I think it's helpful and leads into my next question is, is
SPEAKER_02
7:22
is there any danger? Do the conservatives have any danger right now? And, you know, there's that that media moment that we saw this week with one of the conservative supporters coming out and saying he voted conservative for 50 years. and until he gets answers, he's not doing it again.
SPEAKER_02
7:38
Is there a danger that this not affects the top level of their vote, but this affects their base and that they cannot get their base out?
Corey
7:46
I haven't seen, besides that story you mentioned, a ton that makes me think that their base is getting nervous. I would love to see what their fundraising numbers look like. I would love to see what their volunteering looks like right now.
Corey
7:58
I don't really get the sense that it's taking a big hit right now. If anything, I think there's been a bit of a bunker mentality. Yeah,
Carter
8:04
Yeah, I think that you have a bunch of volunteers and a bunch of voters for whom the conservatives are their only option. They are, quote unquote, right wing. They don't understand. I mean, even the hashtag we are Earl Cowan took off because those people, you know, they they are right wingers. they stand for the right wing and they believe that this is actually a conspiracy from the media and the left wing to attack them. And it's not based in truth. Their belief system is like Donald Trump's hair. If you believe in it, then it's there.
Corey
8:38
Well, building the this is not my thought. I read an article. I can't remember who wrote it this week. But there is also a sense that the ends justify the means right
Corey
8:48
uh that yeah okay there's maybe some shady dealings maybe they haven't been totally truthful but the the end is uh is a better more conservative more free canada in their opinions and and if you've got that kind of mindset going in this whole duffy business is a distraction you're on a crusade you're trying to do something more than govern you're trying to change the country well
SPEAKER_02
9:09
well so i think cory is it really a distraction like i mean I think the obvious answer, the top line answer is yes, of course it is. This is not what they want to be talking about.
SPEAKER_02
9:19
But if we look at the alternative,
SPEAKER_02
9:21
transactional weekly policies versus focusing on your record on the economy, which is riddled with opportunity for the opposition, is this really in the most authentic sense of distraction?
Corey
9:34
Yeah. Well, you talked about transactional weekly policies. It's daily.
Corey
9:38
Nobody is talking about those policies anymore. where the first week the Conservatives were very good at getting us to write about, talk about, speak about on podcasts like this, their policies like the Netflix tax or any of the other small ball things that they put out there. But this week they've lost control. Well,
Carter
9:53
Well, I'm going to be honest with you. I know that they did an announcement with the Boy Scouts. Yeah.
Carter
9:58
I know they did an announcement with the Boy Scouts. I cannot, I'm
Carter
10:02
I'm just sitting here, I feel like I have to Google what the actual policy announcement was.
SPEAKER_02
10:06
Yeah, I agree with you. I just know it was outside and that's about it. Well, it
Corey
10:09
it was it was for salmon. That's that's pretty much all you need to know. It was like another 15 million dollars. It was more small stuff. But for
Corey
10:16
for weeks, I've been saying, I don't think this election is going to hinge on transactional. Did
Carter
10:19
Did you just see what he did there, Zane?
Carter
10:21
He's like, well, it's interesting that you two don't know. Salmon, salmon, 15 million bucks. Listen,
SPEAKER_02
10:27
Listen, I like sushi, so I don't know. That's
Carter
10:29
That's really hurtful, though. I mean, he had to show us up a little bit. It is what I
Corey
10:33
I do. It is what I do. But 11 weeks is a long time to talk about a new policy a day. It's not going to work. It's barely worked for three weeks. It's not going to work for 11 weeks.
SPEAKER_02
10:45
You touched on this earlier around the media lines that Harper was giving and around the media lines that Corey Tanik had provided as the official spokesperson for the party. I want to talk to you guys a little bit more about what you feel of Stephen Harper's response where effectively all he is saying to any questions about the Duffy trial is rejecting the premise. We could almost say verbatim, I do not accept the premise of the question, and then goes on with his two or three lines that he's been giving for months now. Now, what do you guys make of that as a response? And as strategists who construct media lines, how do you rank that particular media line for Harper, considering it's pretty definitive? It doesn't really leave him open to new information that may present itself. Well,
Corey
11:34
Well, I've been thinking about this, and I think back to the start of this whole, quote unquote, scandal on Duffy. And I wonder, I really wonder now, if
Corey
11:43
on day one, Harper had said, yeah, I knew about it. Turns out it was a bad idea, but we were just trying to protect taxpayers.
Corey
11:49
Is there any chance we'd be talking about it right now? The cover-up kills. And when he constructed his lines, he constructed them poorly. Scott Reed did a good job. You don't lie because the minute you're caught out in the lie and you start having to backtrack from it and spin on it, you're
Corey
12:03
you're going to be in trouble. What he should have said from day one was the truth. I can't put it any more plainly than that because right now he's dying death of a thousand cuts. Well,
Carter
12:14
Well, and he would have been able to keep Nigel Wright theoretically in his office, which would have helped because I think they're weak. I think they're weaker without Wright. But nonetheless, you know, it's interesting. Scott Reid's column, you could hear almost the tone. He kept saying, you don't lie because you'll get caught. Oh, and then, by the way, it's also the right thing to do. And it is the right thing to do is to tell the truth. truth. And the problem right now is that Harper is continuing the lie. He's continuing the lie. And it's not about when he knew anymore. It's about, you know, it is the cover up. And people misremember how politicians are brought down. Politicians are almost always brought down, not by the initial lie that they told, but the cover up that then followed. And this is something thing that is um i
Carter
13:07
don't know that it's you know obviously it's not watergate level but crimes have been committed here and they were trying to cover up their involvement or their knowledge of that crime and that is going to sting for a very long time okay
SPEAKER_02
13:22
okay so you are actually you know what before i get into that because i think you bring up a good point i want to talk about the media lines a bit more because this just fascinates me if you are constructing these media lines for candidates as you've done in the past, how do you ensure that they're open-ended enough that they provide a certain sense of flexibility when new information is presented, but also that they're concrete enough or they're not completely spineless so they actually provide answers? How do you construct with that fine balance in mind?
Carter
13:52
Well, I think that the interesting thing is that Harper's crew is not constructing one that's flexible at all. Theirs is set in concrete. I reject the premise of the the question. Or, you know, I disagree with the premise of the question, which is, I mean,
Carter
14:06
mean, it's a very interesting media line. I mean, it's something that we teach the very first day you do media training, you teach people, okay,
Carter
14:11
okay, we're going to reject
Carter
14:13
reject the premise of the question. Now, we rarely say we
Carter
14:17
we reject the premise of the question. You
Corey
14:19
You never say it. You also never say no comment. You give no comment, you reject premise, but you don't say these things.
Carter
14:24
things. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of ridiculous to imply. Now, the
Carter
14:29
the conservatives are interesting because of their message dogma. I mean, it's not in message discipline, right? Message discipline is interesting. Message dogma is you will say the following to the media only. And you see candidates, I mean, one of the news stories starting to come out last week was the candidates aren't giving interviews. And if candidates aren't giving interviews and only Stephen Harper is speaking to an issue, what
Carter
14:54
what you have is you have complete and 100% message
Carter
14:58
message discipline. When someone Someone pops off of message. And I'm going to use a candidate you worked with.
Carter
15:04
Donna Kennedy Glanz was running for the Progressive
Carter
15:07
Progressive Conservatives in Calgary Varsity. And we had a couple of minor issues with the Progressive Conservatives. And she popped off message. We were, at the time, not going to return money from what they called the No Meat Committee. Donna Kennedy Glanz popped off message and said, you know, if it was up to her, they'd give the money back. And at that moment, the whole story popped up. ran out of ran out of steam or exploded i should say yeah the opposite we we got absolutely screwed well uh i ran out of steam because my head exploded and all the steam left my ears but we took you know that that type of lack of message discipline can destroy a campaign what's going to be interesting is when is the first candidate when is the first conservative candidate going to reject the message dogma to save their own skins and that's ultimately what What will destroy the Conservatives is when they start popping off just to save their own little electoral chances.
SPEAKER_02
16:06
Do you see that happening anytime soon, Corey? Well,
Corey
16:10
yeah, I do. I think a longer campaign heightens the risk of that, especially if this bad news. When you're in a campaign, you feel these things a lot harder than the general public does. You can definitely get the sense that more people are talking about something than are.
Corey
16:24
And if people are actually talking about something, God help you. You think it's the only thing anybody's talking about?
Carter
16:28
about? Yeah, I mean, right now, I mean, what's
Carter
16:30
what's happening on the doors? I mean, I haven't gone door knocking on this campaign, so it would be interesting to me. I mean, we get some feedback from our faithful listeners on what they're seeing at the doors, because all we ever see from candidates is great day on the doors. You
Carter
16:45
You can be the Green Party in Calgary and be like, oh, we had a great day on the doors. You're going to get 4.3% of the vote. How can you be having a great day on the doors? but you know what's really happening on the doors are people talking about this are they talking about the economy are they talking about health care yeah
Corey
17:03
yeah no question and saying to your earlier question about message discipline or media lines how you construct them so they're not a problem in the future you have to narrow the scope you can't make broad sweeping definitive statements you have to talk about the specific thing that was asked full stop and you just you narrow it as much as you can. It's not your job to fill in the whole story for the media. And in fact, a lot of the time where spokespeople on campaigns, novice spokespeople get into trouble is they start to assume why people did certain things. Don't tell them things that you're assuming. Don't tell them more than the question asks. You
Corey
17:41
You just tell them what they asked and in as narrow a sense as possible.
SPEAKER_02
17:46
You guys both were talking about what Stephen Harper should have have done. Let's talk a little bit more about what Stephen Harper should do. You're a conservative strategist right now. Let's say you assume those two roles, and you are given the task of saying, okay, what's our plan going forward? Everything is on the table. What's the first thing you bite at as your strategic move for Stephen Harper going forward, knowing that you are not into September yet? You may have some runway. What do you do right now with this Duffy affair? fair well
Corey
18:15
well i don't know i i don't they are where they are is the problem and they uh they planted these seeds a long time ago i don't think that they're uh handling it particularly poorly from a tactical standpoint they've just got a terrible bag uh they've they've uh they've dug themselves quite the hole and i think they've just got to ride it out so
SPEAKER_02
18:37
so for my hearing you say they can't exchange that bag for another one is is there no possibility in your mind where stephen harper comes out right now at this stage and says yeah i knew or yeah i knew about this you
Carter
18:49
that would be damaging yeah
Corey
18:50
he can't at this point that would be the end of his campaign is my belief
Carter
18:53
belief really the message that he's using right now is the only message that's available to him um and and so what has to happen is the the duffy trial i think ends i think it's at the end of this week something like that there's only five more days
Carter
19:05
they've got it scheduled for another week it ends before labor day uh then i'm going to come back on september the so before even the the long weekend, I'm going to put out a change the channel message. I'm going to reinforce that change the channel message the first week, so the week of the 7th after the long weekend. And then I'm going to try and make that change the channel message be the election question or the ballot box question as we move forward.
SPEAKER_02
19:29
So I'm hearing both of you say there's no way he can bend this bullet. He just needs to take it and assume how much pain it gives and then try to do his best to be the best campaigner going forward in September. Yeah,
Corey
19:40
Yeah, I mean, I think he could probably tighten up some of his individual answers
Corey
19:45
answers like you don't need to say i reject the premise just reject the premise but um on
Corey
19:51
on on the main what can you do at this point what can you do you can't fire novak uh
Corey
19:56
that's a nightmare and that just as zane you were saying it the other day on cbc that just sort of kicks it for another couple of days and we're so close to the finish line at this point yeah
Corey
20:06
you just go you got to power through and if you fire novak who's the the next guy you fire? Who's the next guy after that? They are just going to keep coming for scalps until they have Stephen Harper's himself.
SPEAKER_02
20:15
So let's talk about that a bit more. You're on the other side. You're either the NDP or the liberals. How much do you go after Stephen Harper on this issue? What do you go after Stephen Harper on this issue about in particular? And what do you think resonates the most with the public if you're going after him on this issue of the Duffy trial? Well,
Corey
20:37
so the first party
Corey
20:38
party to make a move, I think, of any size about this was the liberals who said, you got to fire Novak. Mulcair then said, you got to fire Trudeau or you got to fire Harper,
Corey
20:48
right? You don't need to fire Novak. He's just a symptom. He's not the disease. although
Corey
20:54
although the new democrats did change their tone and call for some heads to roll a bit later i think in part because that is a pretty you know you can draw blood that way uh and they're going to keep doing that they're going to the
Corey
21:06
the very same reason why harper has to avoid firing novak unless there's just like irrefutable i
Corey
21:12
i don't know actually i think this evidence is pretty strong but i if there is something more concrete like novak's an email back being like thanks i got it i totally understand or like a bvm uh where he confirms that he knew about this 90k unless there's that you got to stick by this guy uh because you don't want those cuts if you're those other parties you want to inflict those cuts so look for them to be finding small things around the periphery where they can cause a little bit more damage a little bit more damage and a few interesting angles to create a new bump and a new story what
Carter
21:43
you have to do now if you're the the liberals or the NDPs, you've got to find a pattern. You've got to make this stand for the fullness of the reign of terror that Harper has done. So you've got to put out a pattern of deceit and a pattern of lying that says that this, you know, the Duffy thing, you know, a corrupt senator to be sure, you know, who claimed expenses that maybe he shouldn't have. Everybody agrees. Maybe he shouldn't even have been appointed a senator. But this is just but one issue that shows that the conservatives have overstayed their welcome. You know, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And Stephen Harper has had absolute power for the last four years. Well,
Corey
22:32
Well, as a just an aside here, I got to give the opposition pretty good marks for this. I mean, they're
Carter
22:38
taking a good round out of
Corey
22:39
what we're talking about is a
Corey
22:41
a guy who had Senate expenses that were questionable, and
Corey
22:45
and it was all paid back. And this has become the scandal of the campaign so far. That's pretty amazing when you think about it. Corey,
SPEAKER_02
22:52
Corey, you give him high marks. Do you think going forward on this, regardless of how long this lasts, either the liberals or the NDP, any one of them are better positioned than the other to make this charge stick?
Corey
23:05
Well, Tom Mulcair led the charge on this for the past two years, credit where credit's due. people
Corey
23:11
often give him high praise for his prosecutorial style in the house i've always thought that was good for you but nobody outside of the 613 cares that's the ottawa area code right um i
Corey
23:24
i actually think that trudeau might be better positioned simply because mulcair does have some questions following him around himself about envelopes of money that he rejected to be clear but uh it becomes you know
Corey
23:37
know one of the things about trudeau's inexperience is it also means he's new which means he hasn't been sullied by politics the way that some of these other guys i mean
Carter
23:47
mean it's not as new as people think he is he's been in the in in uh in the in the house for quite some time but nonetheless he he knows what he's doing i think that trudeau uh i mean i'm i i think i'm the harshest on on the liberal campaign uh on the podcast but i think that they've actually They've actually found some ground to stand on and are actually doing a pretty good job of defining the conservatives. It'll be interesting to figure out, to see if they can figure out how to define Mulcair in the coming days and start tearing down the NDP. Because right now, they have to start, I mean, the conservatives are going to do what they're going to do. It's the NDP that are really hurting the liberals. Right.
Corey
24:26
Right. The real, as we've said before, the real election is between the liberals and New Democrats. Whoever wins that fight is going to, if it's a tie, the conservatives win. If the liberals win, they win. If the New Democrats win, they win. This is the real fight of this election.
SPEAKER_02
24:41
That's great. Let's end it on that note with that segment and we'll definitely be touching on it as this trial wraps up in late August, early September. Let's move it to our next segment. Our
SPEAKER_02
24:52
Our next segment, how much hay is too much hay?
SPEAKER_02
24:55
I want to ask you guys about particular political situations or themes that have gone on either this week or in the past and or have been developing in the past and are slowly crescendoed this last week. And you tell me how much hay, as a political strategist on the other side or on your side of this issue, should you be making? Should you be tooting your horn? Should you be, if you're on the opposite side, should you really be trying to make this an issue? And this all stems out from what I thought was a very astute point by Stephen. And yes, you can quote me on an astute point by Stephen, which is a rarity. I
Corey
25:34
you mean another Stephen, but go on. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02
25:35
Yeah, I do. I do. do, and where he said a few weeks ago, or I believe it was last week, where he talked about how every single situation politically should not be used as a vote getter on the other side. So I want to put that to the test from your guys' experience and your opinion on certain situations that we have. So the first one,
SPEAKER_02
25:54
Tom Mulcair and his praise in the early 2000s of Margaret Thatcher. If you are on the other side, the liberals or the conservatives, how much hay should you be making out of this? Zero.
Corey
26:04
No hay. I'll tell you why. this is uh if you're if you're the conservatives you don't want to make it look like tom mulcair is more moderate to the canadian public as a large and if you're the liberals same deal i i don't understand why margaret
Carter
26:17
margaret trudeau first uh first of all i think i'm sorry margaret thatcher not trudeau um you're you're missing the point though the point of this exercise is who is thomas mulcair the there was a uh a really nice political cartoon that had him changing and the the poster behind him wearing the red tie. I think you sent it to me, Corey. I sent it to you, yeah. We're wearing the red tie and behind him is a picture of Maggie Thatcher and then as the years go by, the tie goes from red to
Carter
26:46
to orange and the picture goes from Thatcher to Fidel Castro. Yeah,
Corey
26:52
Yeah, it morphs slowly.
Carter
26:53
Yeah, so this is what I would go at. I would actually make hay on this. Now, I'm not going to invest my entire campaign on it, but I'm going going to go after it in in french speaking uh quebec i'm going to go after the uh this idea that he's that he's changing and he's chameleon and we don't know who he is and and i don't know that i'm going to go after it in uh and expect to have significant gains but i'm going to go after it hoping to put to make him uh protect his flank well
Corey
27:20
well it just doesn't make any sense to me i i'm not a thatcher fan i don't i think you'd be pretty surprised if i was yeah
Corey
27:28
i'm pretty surprised tom malcare was but um i don't think if there's a fear about tom malcare i think there's three basic fears of tom malcare one is that he can't be trusted on unity two is that he's too left wing for the country and three is that he's just not a very nice guy those would be in you know in a nutshell the three concerns that people would have about tom malcare but i'm
Carter
27:49
i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna go with he's not a nice guy and say that he's duplicitous i
Corey
27:56
that's that's just Just too much of a reach. I
SPEAKER_02
27:58
think it's that much of a reach.
Carter
27:58
reach. He's not likable. You can get away with that assertion. There is this
Carter
28:04
Assertion. That's better. That's the word I'm looking for. If
Corey
28:06
If you're even old enough to have a view of it, there's this view of the 70s England, 70s UK being kind of a messed up place. You know, council houses just where there's a lot of downtroddenness, this sense of economic turmoil. And then Maggie Thatcher comes in, right? Yeah.
Carter
28:23
Yeah. Yeah, Maggie Thatcher comes in, destroys the unions, destroys, you
Carter
28:27
know, you can make them up for
Corey
28:28
for a lot of future problems. But but no,
Carter
28:30
no, but the point being that that this is this is who he is. He's not the guy you think he is. He's he's duplicitous and he changes. He changes depends on which way the wind is blowing. This time the wind is blowing orange. So he's going to be orange. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02
28:45
Yeah, I'm actually convinced and stand closer to Stephen on this one. one cory do you not feel that this is a liability even in french uh speaking quebec where um where this could really turn on him i
SPEAKER_02
29:00
guys i just don't i
Carter
29:01
keep in mind that liberals need something so you're either going to do what else
Carter
29:06
else they got you
Carter
29:07
you need to grab everything you've got on malcare right now and you got to bang them and
Corey
29:12
and that's going to set a stage you're going going to say tom all cares to right wing no
SPEAKER_02
29:20
break it on i'm moving it on okay interesting okay i'm hearing some hey and no hey next question fired
SPEAKER_02
29:26
fired liberal candidate or resigned liberal candidate i should say my mistake ala buzraba in northwest uh calgary here uh based on social media comments that um that were unearthed
SPEAKER_02
29:38
if you you are the other two parties, how much hay do you make about her resigning her candidacy based on her Twitter comments? Well,
Corey
29:46
Well, if you're the New Democrats, no hay, because there
Corey
29:49
there are it exposes them to certain issues. And certainly there's been enough Twitter comments by New Democrat candidates that let's be clear to not reach anywhere near that extremity. But it starts to put you in an uncomfortable place. If you're the conservatives, a lot of hay because it plays into to that narrative of just not ready that you're trying to do about
Corey
30:07
about the liberals in general so this is taking a small issue and building it into a pattern this
Corey
30:12
this is what we talk about all the time this
Corey
30:14
this fits that mold perfectly i
Carter
30:17
i go with no hay from on both count on both parties i i think that the problem is if you make hay on that the next time you've got one and everybody's going to have one everybody's going to have a bozo eruption everybody's going to have social media candidate conservatives had one this week yeah
Carter
30:31
yeah they lost a candidate they all are going to lose a candidate so here's here's
Carter
30:35
here's what we're going to do we're all going to recognize that any past statements that are stupid are fatal for that individual candidate but they're not going to be used against the general uh larger campaigns because uh as soon as you start building them up it can be used as a weapon against you i
Corey
30:51
i find that hard to swallow when we're all talking about earl cowan this week he's not even a candidate yeah that's the duty
Carter
30:57
duty of that though but the thing with earl cowan is that it's a vetted event and and harper vetted and allowed him in they
Corey
31:03
they vetted these candidates i just you
SPEAKER_02
31:05
you can put it back to the basic process let me let me actually frame it in that way so people give people some context the
SPEAKER_02
31:11
the angry man that yells at the cloud um if you are the other two parties how much do you make of earl cowan the guy who um is telling everyone and their dog that they're lying pieces of shit how much um how much hay do you make out of it cory i'm i'm gonna let you go go first i
Corey
31:28
i just i i that whole story bothered me zane uh i didn't like that it became such a big story i felt like it was the the media taking a pound of flesh out of harper because he wasn't answering questions that week and it was a bit of a bit of a flexing a bit of show of force i didn't think look unstable political volunteer is not a story stable political volunteer might be a story uh
Corey
31:51
uh i just i really i didn't like that that a guy who was at a rally who who fired off off became the story that really bothered me now
Carter
32:00
now you know why though this is this is the media saying okay if you will not talk to us we'll
Carter
32:05
we'll talk to someone else and the guy who came out when we were assembled we didn't go get him the
Carter
32:11
guy who came out of your rally and spoke to us was earl cowan if you don't want to talk to us we'll talk to earl cowan and we will make him the story i
Carter
32:21
exactly what they were doing
Carter
32:22
come and talk to us or this is what's going to happen. I know exactly
Corey
32:25
exactly what they were doing.
Corey
32:26
doing. I liked it.
Corey
32:26
I thought it was great. I'm uncomfortable with it. I'm
Carter
32:28
I'm not uncomfortable with
Carter
32:29
with it. How much
SPEAKER_02
32:29
much of this, and I'm going to take a little bit of a detour, but I hope it's a worthwhile one. How much of this do you think rests on the feet of the Conservative Party? I know you mentioned one angle being that they don't talk to the media a lot of times after these events, but how much of it was with this whole human backdrop where Stephen Harper was being asked all of these questions and to the point where sometimes where where he would give his answer, they would cheer extremely loudly. The next question would be asked on the same issue, the Mike Duffy trial, and the human backdrop behind it would start heckling. How much of this was initiated by this political sort of staging that had occurred that was kind of the powder keg for him?
Corey
33:13
Well, it was definitely initiated by the conservatives, but two
Corey
33:17
two wrongs don't make a right. Come
Carter
33:22
did you become this whole two wrongs don't make a right? What school of political strategy do you go to? If you live by the sword, you die by the sword. If you put a bunch of wackos on a stage and start booing the media, keep in mind the media is a target audience for every campaign. We know what they like to report. We know who they are, and we spin them first before we go and we try and spin the general public.
Corey
33:47
public. There were so many ways they could have hung Stephen Harper legitimately. I just don't think Earl Cowan was one of them. Earl
Carter
33:54
Earl Cowan became emblematic because they were able to, you know, they put themselves in that position. They were hoisted on their own petard. Well,
Carter
34:04
Well, you got to get that in somewhere.
SPEAKER_02
34:06
somewhere. I don't know if it's because it's 7.30 in the morning on a Sunday, but in the last two minutes, both of you have said something very, very like have both each made a sentimental point that I would not have expected you to Corey about sentimental Corey, Corey being soft about the conservatives in the media and, and Steven saying, Oh, please don't make hay about social media eruptions. Cause we all have them. So no, no one talked about this. I just have to point that out. Well,
Corey
34:31
Well, uh, I'm a new dad and Steven has, has been exploded on social media before. I
Carter
34:38
I have, I have, I have had my whippings on social media. How
SPEAKER_02
34:42
How much hay do you make if you are the opposition parties to the NDP that
SPEAKER_02
34:48
that the approval ratings for the Manitoba NDP who are in government right now are very, very low? How much hay do you make about that? Is there a larger pattern, narrative thread you can make out of it, or is this not worth it?
Corey
34:59
Well, they're trying. We heard this in Alberta, too. New Democrat governments in other provinces blow things up. blah you know uh but i think people overstate um how important the performance of a provincial party is to their federal vote and i think parties in particular really overthink
Corey
35:17
overthink these kind of things it is it is possible to hold two contradictory thoughts let's not even talk about these two thoughts are let's not parse it in the sense that well i vote federally this way and provincially this way and they're different parties people
Corey
35:31
people are hypocrites hypocrisy is the the human condition and um how
Carter
35:35
how can you say that and
Corey
35:38
and and there's just just forget it it's it's not a big deal that people don't like the provincial new democrats the
Carter
35:44
the hay you make is if you're the liberal party you you know you you've got to start and say okay well where am i where am i getting the seats that i need to make a majority and uh you know i i looking at the numbers i'm trying to figure out why they're not focused on more on manitoba uh because i think that there is an opportunity to ensure that there's no orange in manitoba or less orange in manitoba um and and i think that it can go fairly red so that gives you a nice little you know starting point uh to really make sure that you really got those not the first 90 seats need to be locked and loaded pretty quick for the liberals and i don't think that they are because i don't think that they've done their math yet well
Corey
36:23
well i'm not sure that you want to start tying provincial performance to federal performance in Manitoba if you're the Liberals. The Liberals are, they're
Corey
36:31
they're non-existent in Manitoba.
Carter
36:32
Manitoba. I'm not tying them together. I'm just simply saying that there's an opportunity there. When
Carter
36:36
When you look across the board and you look across the country's polling, there's an opportunity for the Liberals to get into Manitoba and to win some seats. That's the hey I would make. Recognize that the NDP are being tied down by their provincial cousins by a little bit.
Carter
36:52
Get in there, win some seats. Next
SPEAKER_02
36:55
Next question. If you are the conservatives, how much hay, either on a grassroots or an institutional level, how much hay do you make of this media conspiracy that your grassroots supporters are talking about? you know the the hundreds of small cuts against your party you know the whole boy scouts thing the nanny the sign um the guy on the window with his fuck harper sign how much hate do you make of this around the media covering small stories like you mentioned cory about the conservatives uh to to rally up your base around this media conspiracy well
Corey
37:30
well i think you make a lot because first of all it's it's a low-hanging fruit it plays with your base if you're the conservatives but also Also, I'm not
Corey
37:40
not unsympathetic to the point. There are a lot of stories that are non-stories, if you ask me. The wrong salmon on the poster, that's embarrassing. That's a gaffe. There's no question about that. Atlantic salmon, Pacific salmon, but I
Corey
37:56
don't know. The Boy Scouts, the Fuck Harper thing, all of these, the granny who's opposed to Stephen Harper, they're starting to become a list as long as my arm of these stories that are are just there
Corey
38:09
there are there not stories i mean i if that's the level of story i could go out and create a story today just by holding a sign on a street corner in this city and that's not right in my opinion it's
Carter
38:20
it's fascinating to me because i think what what it does is it actually does enable the conservatives to construct a media or against this argument and they are able to take uh the boy scout uniform this you know the fuck harper sign the all these all these little tiny stories and say, see, this whole right Duffy affair is just a media construction and minimize it and hold their base. Their base is law and order. Their base is about morally right. And they're going to be able to hold on to their base by saying, see, the media are against us. This right Duffy thing is just a media construction. Well,
Corey
39:00
Well, yeah, there is now a risk that the people will look at it and say it's the media who cried scandal yeah
Corey
39:06
and it kind of delegitimizes all of the legitimate criticism of the harper government of which there's a there is a ton a
Carter
39:14
ton a ton but this stuff's so easy you can just put it all together and oh
Corey
39:18
and it's so clickbaity right i mean
Carter
39:20
mean in this day and age
Corey
39:21
age i it's it's got a lot of flash people i'm sure are clicking on those stories sharing them on social media but
Carter
39:27
but i'll tell you if i'm in the liberal war room or the the new democrat war room i am putting out this stuff every single day and i am going and i'm hoping for the inevitable buzzfeed top 14 things that define the conservatives you know these types of new media that are uh
Carter
39:42
uh you know so shallow and
Carter
39:45
and the the traditional mainstream media that is that we've come you know that we used to rely on for for big news stories now finds themselves competing repeating on a clickbait basis and covering the same stories. Well,
Corey
39:58
Well, my point, though, is that that might help the liberals, but
Corey
40:01
but it's probably also going to help the conservatives. It'll shore up their base. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02
40:05
I want to talk about Carter. Maybe you're going to eat some more crow. There was a recent poll out that suggested that
SPEAKER_02
40:12
that the Justin Trudeau ad where he repeats
SPEAKER_02
40:16
repeats the charge at the beginning, saying that Stephen Harper thinks he is not ready and then continues on and saying what he is ready for, is testing very very well with canadians are
Carter
40:28
bringing this up as though testing well in a focus group is how elections work listen
Carter
40:35
this is the biggest problem with election strategy in canada in the united states is that people take focus groups results and say this is how things are going to work in the future you want
Corey
40:45
make with my question that's my question clearly god
Corey
40:48
well yeah i'm gonna jump right in there too and say that's nonsense just Just because a focus group says, oh,
Corey
40:54
oh, yeah, no, I like that ad. That's nice. Focus groups tell us all the time they hate negative advertising. Negative advertising works. Focus groups tell us all the time they like the soft, cuddly stuff. It does not work. It never
Carter
41:05
never works. And focus groups are good for certain things. But focus group testing of advertising, I'll tell you what works. Tell me, where are the liberals today in terms of their polling results? results, after running that ad ad nauseum for three and a half weeks, they're nowhere. They're still trapped in the cellar. They're not getting the resonance. Where they start to get resonance is when they actually do what we've been telling them to do from the beginning, and that's define Harper negatively and show Trudeau as the person who can stand up to Harper.
Carter
41:39
If Thomas Mulcair is the only leader who can do that, Thomas Mulcair is the next prime minister. If Trudeau stands up and starts to define Harper, they're in the fight. And you see that when they do it, you can, and don't use a focus group. Don't do this to me, Velji, where you use a focus group to defend a crappy ad. I
SPEAKER_02
41:59
I knew this would get you on because I,
SPEAKER_02
42:02
and I think it opens up a gateway to, to something that I think we've talked about a lot of times off air, but I think would be interesting
SPEAKER_02
42:10
interesting to our listeners. Why not focus groups for advertising? Why not? I mean, if there's a group of 60 people saying, yeah, this works for me, and their response is increased 10% in terms of favorability for Justin Trudeau, that
SPEAKER_02
42:25
that sounds interesting. That sounds good. That sounds positive. Why is it not? Well,
Corey
42:28
Well, I'm going to go first to give Carter a chance to cool down. Calm down. I'm going to get more coffee. I'm
Corey
42:35
Look, the thing about focus groups is, first of all, you may have a bunch of focus groups. You may get to 60 people, but I doubt it. most people have focus groups that are smaller and
Corey
42:46
that was okay when we segmented people into women aged 30 to 55 but everybody is well aware at this point that we are much more diverse there's there's so many more opinions focus groups can't possibly capture them all that's problem number one and that's why you probably want to go to a broader sort of survey thing and find ways to structure feedback problem number two though and the bigger problem uh although the problem can be be a feature is that you
Corey
43:14
you can have one person in there sway everybody else in the focus group right and because you're in front of other people you act in a way that you want to look like you act not the way that you actually act so
Corey
43:27
focus groups are are problematic in that sense now there's
Corey
43:32
there's been times i'm going to give focus groups a little bit of a nod here like new coke Coke.
Corey
43:36
When New Coke came out, they tested it.
Corey
43:40
Everyone's familiar with New Coke. Coke changed its formula to New Coke. It actually tested very well in individual taste tests and all that. But in focus groups, inevitably,
Corey
43:49
inevitably, there was some person who was furious about it and managed over the course of the focus group to move people to opposition of New Coke. And Coke was famously told, well, ignore it. It's just one person.
Corey
44:01
But that was how how it played out because nobody gave a damn about soda but the one person who did care about soda was able to persuade through their passion everybody else focus groups can tell you things like that so if
Corey
44:13
if there's like a outlier and intensity focus groups are good at picking that up but on political ads where everybody's already got an opinion and everybody's sort of picked
Corey
44:22
picked their entire life whether they're a liberal conservative or new democrat
Corey
44:26
total waste of time yeah
Carter
44:27
yeah i mean i i hate focus groups um i mean polling i'm really hard on I'm pulling, right? Pulling, though, I can make uses from because people will answer the phone. I mean, I think I've used these statistics over and over again. It used to take 3,000 phone calls to fill 1,000 responses on a poll. Now it takes someone in the neighborhood of 27 to 30,000 phone calls to fill that same 1,000 people. So you're getting a sampling structure problem. The law of large numbers indicates that the 29,000 people who didn't answer the phone call or didn't have have time for it, have more commonality or more common traits than the thousand people who did.
Carter
45:07
Anyways, moving on to what does that mean for focus groups? Well, let me ask our
Carter
45:11
our faithful listeners a
Carter
45:13
a question. When was the last time you went to a focus group?
Carter
45:17
Who goes to a focus group? What are
Carter
45:19
are the tendencies of a person to take $75 and give up two hours of their life to go to a focus group. I think you get a skewed population. I don't think you get, you know, to quote Ralph Klein, Martha and Henry, the average, the true average population in there. And then so so what you know, the polling industry, the focus group industry pushes back and says, no, we get we get normal people. We get the severely normal people in here. And I go, OK, that's interesting. I'm not sure that you do. I'm going to I'm going to do that. And secondly, I do think that, you know, know, the facilitation will
Carter
45:53
get you the results you look for.
Carter
45:56
And yeah, I have some really, you know, some close friends are great facilitators and they will tell you that everything, you know, they facilitate and blah, blah, blah. You know what? I've watched a lot of focus groups. I've watched good facilitation and I've watched bad facilitation. Not everybody's a great facilitator and focus groups to me, they hinge so much on that facilitation that it's very very challenging, uh, to see how, how they actually unfold. Well,
Corey
46:19
Well, I'll push back a little on, on this in the sense that that's also true of a survey. I've seen badly written surveys and I've seen well-written surveys and the outcomes you get hinge on that.
Corey
46:31
Professionalism helps regardless of what you're doing.
SPEAKER_02
46:35
That's what it takes. That's what it takes to get the blood boiling of Stephen Carter. Oh yeah. I
Corey
46:39
I mean, I, that was
SPEAKER_02
46:40
was a level of, uh, enthusiasm that, you know it's like 8 a.m i should have asked that question off the top that's great and i appreciate that sentiment about about
SPEAKER_02
46:51
about focus groups but i i mean i listen i'm not entirely convinced
SPEAKER_02
46:57
um or i'm not saying that but i should be saying i'm not entirely um sold on the fact that these ads are not working in some way shape or form and because you're weak you are
Carter
47:08
are just weak and you're young okay
SPEAKER_02
47:11
yeah let's let's let's blame it on age and weakness last question in this round
SPEAKER_02
47:16
how much hay if you are the opposition parties the ndp or the liberals should you be making specifically on ray novak how
SPEAKER_02
47:23
how much hay should we be making specifically on him as it relates to this trial oh
Corey
47:27
oh a lot he's the weak link right now uh that's really really tough position for him to be in uh andrew coin's very sarcastic call about oh my god can you imagine being harper and everyone went around you was lying to you and you didn't know for all these years yeah
Corey
47:41
that there you know cory tanaki's comment about i can't i like he picked his words so poorly that's
Carter
47:49
that's the money yeah
Carter
47:50
it is unfathomable that ray novak knew about this payment and did not tell the prime minister you get to now undermine the principal spokesperson for the conservative campaign forget
Carter
48:01
forget about ray novak ray novak is never going to speak to media he will never be seen again He
Carter
48:06
will be beside the prime minister or behind the prime minister or on the bus. That's fine. You'll never see him again.
Carter
48:12
Corey Tanik is the guy who has to stand up in front of the media every day.
Carter
48:17
And he's the one who said it is unfathomable that Ray Novak knew and did not tell the prime minister. Mr. Tanik, do you still hold that view?
Carter
48:26
Mr. Tanik, do you still hold the view?
Carter
48:28
Mr. Tanik, is the earlier quote that you gave us true or not true?
Carter
48:32
You know, that's months of good fun. That's
Corey
48:35
That's months of premise rejecting.
SPEAKER_02
48:37
If you are making hay out of this, and I don't want to make hay out of this question, but if you are making hay out of this as the opposition parties, do you go directly to the firing or do you try to iterate your call of action for what should happen to Ray Novak or what his future should be? Is there some steps you can take to extend this cycle?
Corey
48:59
Well, they've already gone to the firing.
SPEAKER_02
49:01
they hadn't, what would you suggest they do? Now,
Corey
49:04
Now, I'd say go to the firing. I mean, that's the logical step. What are you going to say? Put him on probation? That's going to sound like you're way too weak on the issue.
Carter
49:12
I mean, I think that you move from Novak to the rest of the team. Who's still there? Who was on these emails? I mean, there's a big pocket of people around. Ask, did Jenny Byrne know? Who else is on these emails? I mean, who else can be called? This is fairly significant at this point.
SPEAKER_02
49:31
We'll be talking about this much more. Let's move it on to our last segment. our last segment the over under the lightning round guys
SPEAKER_02
49:37
guys are you ready totally
Carter
49:38
totally ready couldn't be more excited uh
SPEAKER_02
49:40
uh yes well the the the focus group question has probably piqued your interest and has gotten you very excited for this round over
SPEAKER_02
49:47
over under on eight how big is the defy trial this week oh
SPEAKER_02
49:52
oh maybe right on the mark i'd
Carter
49:53
i'd say under still oh great yeah
SPEAKER_02
49:57
when it relates to the issue of trust which of the leaders do you think is currently performing the best
Corey
50:05
don't i don't know how great any of them look i guess trudeau just by uh trudeau
Carter
50:09
trudeau by a hair yeah
Corey
50:10
yeah but see what i did there that's hilarious yeah you know just by nature of what we talked about with the thatcher stuff and of course duffy is just taking harper right out of the running yeah
SPEAKER_02
50:21
yes or no yes or no is it fair to say that people are still no longer paying attention to this election no
Corey
50:30
not at this point i i actually in a funny way i think they were paying more attention a couple of weeks ago but um this is a snowball or or whatever a rock gathering moss or i'll pick your metaphor guys i don't care but we are now three weeks into this election you
Corey
50:48
you can't say that anymore yeah
Carter
50:49
yeah i think that you know signs are up people are noticing uh driving around around Vancouver the other day. I mean, it's impossible not to know that there's an election on. So I think that people are at least waking up to it. I don't think you can say that they're not paying attention.
SPEAKER_02
51:03
Yes or no. Does Ray Novak have a job as chief of staff by
SPEAKER_02
51:07
by next week? Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_02
51:11
Which party is best positioned to frame the ballot box question going forward?
Corey
51:17
i think it's the new democrats it's
Carter
51:20
it's it's any party that actually chose to frame a ballot box question why i think it's fascinating to this point is that no one has framed the ballot box question you
SPEAKER_02
51:28
you don't think the uh the ripples of the duffy trial are starting to frame it or from your vantage point carter um
Carter
51:35
um they could be but i don't think it's been grabbed by either party and made an actual question yet well i guess yeah
SPEAKER_02
51:41
yeah i guess my next question which is which, as it stands today, is there a ballot box question for the selection? I'm hearing you say no, Carter. Well,
Carter
51:48
Well, what I'm hearing, what I'm seeing so far is that both parties are defining, both the NDP and the Liberals are defining a ballot box question that is, you know, can you still trust Prime Minister Harper? That's fascinating. That's great. But that doesn't help you. That destroys them. And you need a ballot box question that says,
Carter
52:06
you know, I, Thomas Mulcair, am the best. You should choose me. Corey, does a ballot
SPEAKER_02
52:13
ballot box question need to be in the affirmative, or
SPEAKER_02
52:17
or can it be a question on trust and weakness of the incumbent? Well,
Corey
52:21
Well, it can be a question on trust, but I agree with Stephen. I think that both the Liberals and New Democrats are essentially trying to say the ballot box question is about
Corey
52:32
about Harper. But I think that question's been asked and answered. I think at this point, they need to understand how they can separate each other from each other. I mean,
Carter
52:41
the low line, the low watermark for the Conservatives is coming up. They don't have much lower that they could drop. Both the Liberals and the New Democrats can drop. And the other party, whichever one you're working with, needs to define the ballot box question to get their voters not to just lose the Conservatives.
SPEAKER_02
53:01
Yes or no. Does Stephen Harper successfully change the channel from the Duffy trial in September? Yes or no. Corey, I'll go with you first.
Corey
53:09
Yeah, I think yes. simply because there's so much time to do it.
Carter
53:12
I think so too. I think that he's got the opportunity and he's got the experience.
SPEAKER_02
53:17
Finally, who won this week?
Carter
53:22
I think so too. I think that Trudeau actually found his feet this week. It was actually kind of fun to watch that their campaign, in my opinion, began to actually start to function the way it wants to function.
SPEAKER_02
53:35
Those ads started to work, Carter. Oh,
Carter
53:37
Dick. You are such a dick, Velji.
SPEAKER_02
53:41
That's a wrap, episode 544 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velji. With me, as always, Stephen Carter and Corey Hogan, and we'll see you next time.
SPEAKER_02
53:56
Listeners of The Strategist podcast, remember,
SPEAKER_02
53:58
remember, we are on iTunes and Stitcher, so make sure you subscribe to our podcast on there. Also, we're on Twitter at StrategistPod and individually at Corey Hogan, at Carter underscore AB, and at Zane Velji.