Transcript
Zain
0:03
This is a strategist episode 1890 my name is stop everything
Carter
0:05
everything Zain there's no time there's no time for the intro we've got to talk instead about the fantastic live show that we're doing on November the 12th at the church Knox United Church starting at 7 30 unless you buy the VIP experience it's not just a package Zain it's an experience you just blow
Zain
0:24
blow your load all at the same time Carter it's It's all
Carter
0:27
all happening, brother. It's all
Zain
0:31
city? Everybody needs to know. What city is it? I need some basic
Zain
0:35
basic detail. Yes, Carter. What city?
Zain
0:37
city? Knox, United Church. November 12th. Everybody knows that. What do you mean everyone knows that?
Shannon
0:47
It starts at 7.30. If I show up at 7.30, I'm paying how much, Carter?
Carter
0:51
$30, which is like nothing. It's like free. If
Shannon
0:54
If I show up at 6.30, what am I paying and what am I getting? $75, you're
Carter
0:59
you're getting the VIP experience, which is catered, which is why it's so much money. We're catering it?
Carter
1:07
Why are we catering it?
Carter
1:13
Tell people. Don't shrug
Shannon
1:15
motif. I don't think
Shannon
1:16
think we're telling, we're not telling people, are we? Oh yeah, it's a funeral.
Shannon
1:20
Yeah, it's a funeral. So
Shannon
1:23
you know, refreshments at a funeral, Zania, You have to go down to the basement afterwards. Do you? Do you? Yes. Soft
Zain
1:28
course. Oh, my God. Okay. Let's take this back. Yes. Plus, you have to have pickles. We are indeed. This is not a joke. Let's start here. This is not a joke.
Carter
1:36
You know, it's when we say this is not a joke that we lose a lot of credibility. November
Zain
1:39
November 12th, Knox United Church. Carter's booking. I will say. He's deep into the Christians. He's got access points. No,
Carter
1:46
No, the Christians are deep into me. Okay.
Zain
1:49
Fantastic. In Calgary. It's a nice venue.
Zain
1:52
venue. 7.30 to 9.30. Carter, there's... ultimately here's where here's here's how you win over someone like me okay for the for the other three brown listeners of this show this is two shows in one okay two you're getting two shows in one explain explain carter how how folks are getting two shows for the price of one unless they want to pay for more and then get i guess food it's
Carter
2:15
it's like food it's like a third show because you get to spend time with us okay so that's the vip experience
Carter
2:20
the vip experience also comes It comes with a free Zane Velji for Leader sign. Yeah. Signed by you. Oh, is it signed by me? Yeah. This is all news to me. You're going to be signing autographs. Oh,
Carter
2:32
Oh, fantastic. You've got a little table. Yeah. It's right at the end of the reception line. How many have you sold so far?
Carter
2:39
many have we sold?
Zain
2:40
sold? Yeah, of those VIP experiences. We
Carter
2:41
We have sold over 30% of our VIP experiences. What does that mean in raw numbers?
Zain
2:48
Okay. That's not bad. That's more things I've signed. There'll be quite a few things for me to sign.
Zain
2:53
And it's an evergreen lawn sign, once again. It's
Zain
2:57
are not aware, I will be signing on behalf of Zane Velji for leader.
Zain
3:01
I am the designated proxy for Zane Velji for leader, who's a different person, who is not me, who is a choice that everyone has every time there's an election. You can write in Zane Velji for leader.
Carter
3:13
And we're hoping to make a mark in every
Zain
3:16
every single election. So
Shannon
3:17
So I need some very basic information here. This is in Calgary? Yeah, no, we... What day again? November
Zain
3:26
minutes deep. Have we talked about a URL? We have not chatted, and there's a reason.
Shannon
3:29
And that was... Okay, now we need to know, how do I buy the tickets? Okay,
Zain
3:34
Okay, here we go. So this is... Okay, I think I'm stretching out for this. Carter? We're both getting ready. Here we go. You've got to get ready. We've got a few options, and ultimately, we've got only one option. But I need to... Let's start with where they shouldn't go. Okay, so this is true. We can make a big list. Now, thestrategists.ca is our main website. You could go there, and you'd expect that there'd be links to the live show. There won't be. No, thanks. So don't go there. Now, you might be thinking, wait, thestrategistslive.ca.
Zain
4:03
Unfortunately, as much as that makes sense, and we do own that site, it is forwarded to Flair Airlines. So that is actually a Flair Airlines formal forward that we've had to do. Formal forward is, of course, the contractual term that they have stipulated. Now, you'd say, okay, drop the the. duh, strategistlive.ca, strategistlive.com. Doesn't it sound easy? It's easy. It was easy because that was the URL for our previous live show at the Grand. Now, those tickets are not on sale, but you can still go to those websites. So as it relates for you to be going somewhere that you can go and get to, strategistlive.ca and .com, Carter, those are good websites.
Carter
4:41
They both work. Now,
Zain
4:42
Now, as it relates to the more particular question of where they need to go in order to buy tickets for this show, Carter, What
Zain
4:48
solution have you come up with? I assume you've ported one of these sites to the new URL. No. Or have you not done that? No, you have not done that. Okay. Okay.
Carter
4:57
Corey's the only one who retains the responsibility for those URLs and has been unable to provide us with either the information so that we could redirect them or the ability to redirect them himself. So we have created as a solution. Oh, this is a solution.
Zain
5:13
like an overwrought solution that I think is about to come up.
Carter
5:17
strategists live dot show dot show actually
Carter
5:21
actually takes you to the uh the ticket office show pass ticket office uh so you can you can buy your tickets right there and i'll tell you something you remember how we've been screwed by arts commons we're
Carter
5:32
we're getting screwed by the church too wow a buck fifty a buck fifty it's way less than the eight dollars
Zain
5:39
dollars significant less fuckery than the workland center as they now like to be called in their official capacity yeah
Carter
5:45
you know what i'm less concerned about what they want when they take eight bucks out of every ticket we sell.
Zain
5:50
They took a lot of our money. This is true, Shannon. Shannon, have you now, you are almost a proxy for the audience here. Have you gotten every piece of critical information? Who cares who's on stage? We haven't mentioned it. You're going to be there. Carter's going to be there. I'm going to be there. Annalise is going to be there, of course. Annalise is going to be there. Carter, have you talked about the two parts of the show? Have you talked about any of this?
Carter
6:10
We invited Corey. I guess how much I've heard back.
Carter
6:14
Squat. I don't know if Corey's coming or not.
Carter
6:17
Zero news from that guy. He's too busy.
Shannon
6:20
busy. Corey has a job.
Zain
6:22
It's not an important one from what I can tell. We all have jobs, Shannon. Not an important one from what I can tell. We all do work,
Zain
6:28
Talking trees with Corey Hogan. Some of us more, some of us less.
Zain
6:31
Fucking lame-ass job, if you ask me. He's the
Zain
6:36
slayer out there. His job is to get fucked over on Thursday. So the show is
Carter
6:40
is going to go like this, Zane. Oh, please,
Zain
6:41
please, you've got a show flow.
Carter
6:43
Yeah. The first act of the show is going to be the Carter Accountability episode.
Carter
6:49
Everybody's asking for it. People want it. They want me to be held to account.
Zain
6:54
Now, let me clear this up. This is the episode in which we spend time telling Stephen Carter something he's known the whole time, but has pretended he hasn't known, which is he's not as good as he thinks he is.
Carter
7:04
Oh, that's not true. That's, well, interesting
Carter
7:09
Incorrect. Second act. You want to hear the second
Zain
7:12
second act? Is there an intermission? Tell people. Will they get to- Yeah, there is
Carter
7:15
is an intermission. They'll
Zain
7:15
They'll get to pee in the
Carter
7:16
the church. And here's the thing.
Carter
7:17
30 to 40% of our previous audiences have left at the intermission- Because
Carter
7:21
Because they think it's a joke. Thinking that
Carter
7:21
it's a joke. Yes.
Carter
7:22
Yes. That there is, in fact, a second act. And there is a second act.
Carter
7:26
Honestly, we're not joking with you. The second act is
Zain
7:29
Definitely more people are going to leave now.
Carter
7:32
We have a credibility issue. You
Zain
7:34
You have a credibility issue. I think people believe me.
Zain
7:37
No, they don't. I think that's true.
Carter
7:39
Anyways, the second act is going to be a regular strategist podcast app, or recording, and with special guests. We have a special guest coming for that recording that no one knows about. I don't even think I've told you two. No,
Zain
7:53
No, I don't even know. I don't know. I literally found out I'm signing lawn signs, and that there are lawn signs with my name on them. Which, by the way, is both terrifying and simultaneously long time coming.
Carter
8:04
until you see them. They are spectacular. They're in my basement right now. yes
Zain
8:08
yes okay uh shannon uh have you in the last nine minutes of promo received
Zain
8:16
received all the critical information that you feel like that
Shannon
8:20
you would need so long
Shannon
8:21
long that it's hard for me to remember that the show is on november 12th in calgary at knox united church i go to this i go to strategist live.ca
Zain
8:31
.ca which is if they
Shannon
8:32
they want to book a
Shannon
8:37
i i show up at 7 30 if i want the 30 ticket i show up at 6 30 if i want the 75 you also have to pay
Carter
8:43
pay you don't have to pay
Shannon
8:44
pay for the tickets but yeah you
Carter
8:45
you just can't show up
Shannon
8:46
up well that's why i went
Shannon
8:50
i went to strategist live don't show you
Shannon
8:52
you completed a transaction okay
Shannon
8:54
i completed a transaction those are my two times that i'm showing up with my ticket i sit for two acts uh one of which will be people
Shannon
9:03
people telling carter mean things and then And another one will have a special guest. There.
Carter
9:09
Yeah. Hang on. I'm just checking. No one has bought tickets during that promo. Okay.
Zain
9:14
10 minutes is actually a record for us. This usually takes a good 25.
Zain
9:19
Corey adds to the lengthening. Corey drags
Carter
9:21
drags it up. Yeah. And you know what? I appreciate Shannon's summarization. It's better than JetGPT. He probably sold more tickets than the first nine minutes. It's better than JetGPT.
Zain
9:31
That's good. Okay. You ready to do a show?
Carter
9:36
i i last the last episode was just a promo i feel like i wasn't
Zain
9:40
wasn't on that i don't think you were either shattered was it just you carter i
Carter
9:42
i just did i did uh carter's
Zain
9:45
carter's a dog with a bone on this live show i like it uh okay let's let's happen
Zain
9:49
let's do a couple things let's talk about the budget coming up um let's talk about carney's retreat uh and ford's retreat quote unquote on the ford ad but before that let's do a check-in with uh bill two in alberta let's do a check-in on the same three groups that I asked you guys to do a strategy for last time we talked publicly about this, that would be the NDP, that
Zain
10:08
that would be the union slash labor slash the specific union of the ATA, and that would be the UCP. Where do you want to start? Shannon, I'll give you first sort of dibs in terms of which one of these three groups you want to tackle. And of course, we talked about the Gen Pop uprising and the civil society uprising, so to speak, so we can tag that one on. But amongst the first three, where do you want to start to kind of comment about how we feel let's six days full six days later i
Shannon
10:34
think i'll start with the ucp because i'm really curious as to what uh carter thinks about and we'll probably go back and forth a little bit sure uh the unions and the ndp but on the ucp uh you know we saw some footage last night i think it was of raj ansani doing a
Shannon
10:50
a town hall uh that went horribly south and people were yelling at her and so on
Shannon
11:05
while it might not be as dramatic
Shannon
11:08
dramatic as that, the next little while is going to feel a little bit tender for
Shannon
11:15
for the UCP. It's going to hurt a little. There's going to be a little bit of lactic acid buildup from what
Shannon
11:22
what they did six weeks ago. it is going to hurt um
Shannon
11:26
this is political season this is the season when people are out doing you know you're going to the charity dinners on the weekends you are uh doing all kinds of events at the legislature different groups end up there so when you're in session you're busy busy uh this is the time of year that burns politicians out because you kind of like fall down dead at around december 21st expected
Shannon
11:48
expected to be ready for christmas and you're absolutely not just because you've been governor since basically
Shannon
11:53
um but this is the time that's really busy and this is when they will meet with constituents and they'll run into people and it will not be pleasant uh
Shannon
12:01
uh and because people are ginned up like the segment of the population that's pissed is really pissed and it's going to be unpleasant for them of course we've seen the legion numbers uh that were both the horse race and the leader favor abilities were not great uh for the ucp um
Shannon
12:17
and And if it continues, they've got a real problem on their hands. Carter,
Zain
12:20
Carter, you suggested two things that are tied to one another in some way, which is Danielle Smith needs to be the principal spokesperson. And then we commented on our last episode in an extra that she was leaving the country. I do not believe she is back yet, unless you guys... Okay, she's still out. She's
Shannon
12:36
She's not back till next week.
Zain
12:37
Okay, as we record here on Sunday night. So she's not back yet. So spokesperson, issue number one that you'd highlighted. You also gave them the strategic and tactical advantage of potentially taking the W on this thing. Do
Zain
12:48
Do you want to reassess or give me further analysis now that we have a week in the can?
Carter
12:54
I think Rajan Salani was targeted by a group of activists who attended a meeting. Instead of asking questions at the town hall, they targeted Rajan. And I think that that's okay. I think that that's a good tactic. I think that they should do those types of activities at MLA town halls. but i don't think that that necessarily represents the group view uh the feedback i was getting from parents continues to be oh thank goodness my kids back in school thank
Carter
13:23
thank goodness my kids back in school and you
Carter
13:26
you know does it screw over the teachers it may you
Carter
13:29
you know but you know we
Carter
13:31
we don't like strikes we
Carter
13:32
we don't like strikes so people you know just were happy and they
Carter
13:37
what they needed to do and and i still think that while there is a vocal minority that are pissed
Carter
13:43
pissed about this i think it is a i think it is a minority i do not think that it is a majority of the population that's that's uh taking to the streets and uh you know i i walked past the school in my neighborhood the other day and you know we love the teachers all scrawled in in chalk by one person you
Carter
14:02
you know but But that's
Carter
14:04
That's all I'm seeing.
Zain
14:06
Shannon, what's your take here? Like, expanding
Zain
14:08
expanding this out from the UCP a bit, do you feel like the cake is baked here on kind of the trajectory of this thing in the sense that does this get louder from here or have we already peaked on the issue with Monday, Tuesday of last week in your mind?
Shannon
14:23
I think it sets the stage for whatever the next thing is that pisses people off about the government.
Zain
14:29
think on this issue, it may have peaked. Is that fair to
Zain
14:32
let's put words in your mouth but yeah yeah
Shannon
14:34
i do because i don't see anybody else out there um buying
Shannon
14:38
buying uh their way into the conversation at all i don't see ads anymore uh from the ata i don't see them uh from the broader labor movement i don't see a whole lot of uh content coming from you know the opposition on this topic so yeah i do um and so in that sense uh carter is right but i think where he's he he may be wrong is the the low level boil uh
Shannon
15:08
uh that they've now created in a whole bunch of people that uh were not necessarily previously politicized and i would also put in that a lot of high school students who will be voting next time around and are doing they did did do their walkouts and it did politicize kids that weren't necessarily going to be political because you know health care doesn't get them up in the morning uh because they're too young right um so i i do think that there's something there it is a stepping
Shannon
15:38
stepping stone to other conversations or whether it's separatism or other things that piss people off about the government and
Shannon
15:46
i think that the the the ucp's numbers have gotten a bit soft they always do during a strike i said this from the very beginning right the employer always pays a price uh that uh elongating
Shannon
15:59
elongating that is a question that i don't think anybody's answered carter cakes
Carter
16:06
i think the cake's relatively baked i i think that um you know the unions had a chance to throw some spices in the the cake and um you
Carter
16:15
you know they talked a good game you know gil gil mcgowan uh head of afl talked there was lots of talking talking happened damn it they
Carter
16:26
that was it and
Carter
16:27
and now we're a week later and nothing's happened and i don't anticipate anything is going to happen i was talking with a union member today who said they were expecting uh they were expecting information at the end of last week and what was going to happen and they didn't get anything thing so you
Carter
16:43
you know i i i fear that you
Carter
16:47
you know i i'm interested in the low boil right like i'm intrigued with that i i'm invested in that i want that to be the case uh that that you know i i don't like this government with the passion of a thousand sons but i i i
Carter
17:00
i don't know i i think the general population wants their kids in school and you know um they don't care about the things that I think they should be caring about, you know, and the labor movement didn't make this any bigger, didn't make the cake any better or any more tasty. That's for damn sure. I'll
Zain
17:19
I'll get back to the note with Sandy Claus, because that's where I wanted to go next. McCarter's brought up labor, Shannon.
Zain
17:23
Shannon. So let's talk about labor as group number two. This is one of the four groups that we discussed. We talked about what labor needed to do in advance of this, the AFL, Gil McGowan's kind of taken the mic on behalf of labor, and I guess rightfully so, In some ways, folks might disagree, but he took the mic, said, be aware of a general strike. And to summarize, hopefully charitably, they said, okay, we met, we got together, this is on the heels of that legislation, and we are now going to begin the work to plan and prepare for a eventual potential general strike. um and reaffirmed their sort of desire to have recall votes and to
SPEAKER_00
18:02
to defeat the government i
Zain
18:04
think that's a pretty comprehensive i might there might be a few additional steps there and to begin the work of organizing so you might see ads and other things by unions that may not have traditionally done so and may have kind of signed and committed to as such where
Zain
18:15
where do you think that leaves the labor movement when there is a lot of folks that wanted that general strike were prepared for that general strike at least being told that that's what to expect do
Zain
18:25
you think it's off the table here and you even saw the government kind of taunt labor a bit in terms of okay if this is what you got bring it well
Shannon
18:34
well i i i don't know if that should have been the first go-to you mean like like like for labor to talk about as a strategy of like okay here's how we're going going to fight back because uh the bar is so high and it is so difficult to achieve they are almost certainly uh not going to meet it at least not in the short term and like i mean general strike's only going to happen when people are like really feeling their feels and there's a high
Shannon
19:03
degree of emotionality and then they walk so
Shannon
19:06
so i i did have questions about setting that up as the the goal it felt like maybe uh setting things up for for failure and i think you saw the government kind kind of taunt them on that because they know that too they understand uh how high the stakes are for the fines and going to jail um
Shannon
19:24
um i was a little confused uh i just went and read the legislation uh that they passed because i wanted to be sure about this there's no prohibition on speech for the ata they are locked into like an absolute bucket of shit collective agreement until 2028 um
Shannon
19:41
um by this legislation uh with no ability to do judicial review or or of the legislation but there's nothing prohibiting their speech in that legislation and i i'm very confused as to why i haven't heard a lot from them or from uh the federation of labor just on the paid side to to keep communicating their side or
Shannon
20:06
or component unions or others. Maybe it's coming. But they knew that the notwithstanding clause was coming and they also knew they were going to be legislated back because it was, you know, widely understood. And I remember saying to you, Zane, if they are still out by the time we go into session, they will legislate them back. There's no question in my mind.
Shannon
20:27
So it's not like people
Shannon
20:29
people didn't have, you
Shannon
20:30
you know, any kind of notice on like when to start like you know hiring the creative people and booking their ads so i'm very confused as to why i'm seeing just absolutely nothing it's like nothing happened right
Shannon
20:43
right 48 hours after they go back to work uh
Shannon
20:45
uh and i don't understand why they're not you know like if they are going to make it work hurt for the government beyond you know uh the usual dip in polls in a strike uh that's going to take you know striking while the iron's hot uh and investing Investing in, you know, a paid strategy and also probably some sort of communication strategy. I haven't seen any of it. And
Zain
21:08
with some sort of legal strategy on top of that, which I don't think three of
Zain
21:11
us would be most aligned or sort of most qualified to speak on. Carter? No, but
Shannon
21:15
but I haven't seen that either. And so that's been a little confusing. I
Zain
21:18
I pitch Shannon's question to you. I do nothing other than pitch it to you, which is to say I have the same question in some ways, which is we know that this could be considered and probably is an existential moment in Alberta labor history. If the fightback does not include a general strike, okay, it doesn't include a general strike. What else does it include? And one reason it doesn't include it is because we're working towards it. Okay, what else should it include at this point? And kind of taking Shannon's question, extending it a bit and trying to make it a bit more strategic in the sense of Carter, you had the ability to put into the bucket what it needs to look like. What does this look like if this is the existential threat right now? And you could make this about ATA as a as an association labor union or you can make this about broader labor your choice well
Carter
22:06
well let's stick to broader labor and just kind of keep it there i mean the the things that happened immediately after the legislating back i mean we saw uh a quick afl meeting we saw a quick um canadian congress i think it was labor
Carter
22:21
meeting in in edmonton or in calgary i can't even even remember which city but that was the extent of it and you
Carter
22:28
know politics isn't you know politics is a game
Carter
22:32
game of two sides right at least two sides so if you make a move zane i get to make a move and
Carter
22:37
and i get to anticipate your next move and my question for labor leaders is when you went on strike were you not anticipating being uh
Carter
22:45
uh you know legislated back and legislated into a contract and why didn't you have your next move ready that day why didn't you have your next move like It seemed to take everybody by surprise except Shannon Phillips and the listeners of the Strategist podcast. I
Zain
23:00
I will tell you, just to fully admit, the notwithstanding element took me by surprise. Legislating back did not. And I think, Shannon, you suggested to me that one was not possible without the other, at least, or was it? We're getting into the legal. It may or
Shannon
23:16
or may not have been. Correct. i mean we're all pretend lawyers here but i mean
Shannon
23:19
i think this whole business of like i
Shannon
23:23
mean let's face it uh materiality
Shannon
23:25
would have these people don't give a shit about
Shannon
23:29
the constitution so i
Shannon
23:32
mean from that sense like it was entirely
Zain
23:35
predictable carter you're on a roll i don't want to interrupt you there but i will add that it didn't yeah it
Carter
23:38
it didn't matter right
Carter
23:39
right it doesn't matter if the use of the notwithstanding should only amp up your response only give you more strength right with the unprecedented nature agree agree
Carter
23:49
you you should have had a an action plan that everybody agreed to that everybody's going to take advantage of um and the fact that they didn't have an action plan kind of showed us that um
Carter
24:03
things weren't uh they didn't anticipate the next move of the government and now a week has passed and a week in this type of political environment is forever, right?
Carter
24:13
You may as well let a month pass. And the actions that need to be taken at this point, you may have lost this game now, right?
Carter
24:22
right? You may not get the opportunity to go back and say, okay, we're now going to start something. Unless
Carter
24:27
Unless you are prepared to do a work to rule, unless you are prepared to do something that may face fines, you are in a position where it may not be wise um for the ata and other unions to jump on board of this thing you have to make a decision that you are prepared for real shit to go down and i don't think i don't think they are well
Zain
24:48
well okay but talk to me if carter was uh designing the game plan for them for monday morning tomorrow november 3rd going forward knowing he couldn't change the past what would tomorrow morning look like would you say okay devote 10 million to an ad spend or would you you say fuck that the time for that is lost or yes and but you need to do something else dramatic like i'm trying to get an understanding of your point that the window may be closing but it's not closed what would carter design for a not closed window i'd
Carter
25:15
i'd be making sure that people understand what teachers are valuable you know i do a work to rule i
Carter
25:21
do a work to rule and i'd buy a 10 million dollar ad campaign to support my work to rule and i put it and i'd ask every labor organization across the country to raise money for the inevitable fines and i'd be if i'm shelling i'd be uh getting ready to go to jail yeah
Carter
25:36
because it is absolutely absolutely imperative that you do something that is going to capture the attention of of uh of parents and work to rule uh can you know it could take everything from rotating strikes to just simply i think we talked last time about uh shutting down the the the basketball teams right
Carter
25:55
like you're you're not going to coach anymore you're not going to assist
Carter
25:58
assist with lunch rooms you're not going to do prep outside of the classroom um you know that that could
Carter
26:05
could be everything up to and including uh impacting students in the education that they're that they're receiving needs to be on the table today
Carter
26:14
agree today we're talking about sports next week we're going to start curtailing english classes we're going to start we're going to focus entirely on social studies everything is going to be social studies for the next week right
Carter
26:28
everybody wants social studies we're going to talk about well i mean we had a young woman over here today who was in grade nine and who's you know supposed to be talking about the constitution and their teacher is pushed off talking about the notwithstanding clause in the constitution because she doesn't want to bring bias into the classroom and i just think that is you know the wrong fucking way to go bring the fucking bias let's go let's go time to go toe to toe with this government shannon
Zain
26:52
shannon you you you seem to agree with a lot of what carter said here add on well
Shannon
26:56
well i agree with the urgency of it because nothing else will communicate it to people i mean and i don't know if now is not the time that i'm not sure when is uh you know i mean i know that teachers feel a great deal of stress uh on getting kids uh caught up i i happen to know that that's how they're feeling right now because i mean any kind of work to rule puts
Shannon
27:17
puts teachers in a degree of basically like moral distress right because they are not then doing all of the extra work that they do to create the learning environment they do um
Shannon
27:27
um having said that i i don't know when else you would demonstrate to government that they've that they have fucked around there is a find out phase and if they don't like it they can go back into the house amend that legislation and put this into some kind of other process to get them out of this uh work to rule thing To me, to my mind, that's the way to call them on it.
Shannon
27:51
That and, you know, a $5 million ad spend until Danny comes home, right?
Shannon
27:56
right? Because she's still tooting around with the Emiratis while she should be here running a health care and education system.
Zain
28:05
you don't think this will happen?
Zain
28:09
Do you think any version of this will happen? Do you think anything that both of you have laid out on the table or agreed with will happen?
Carter
28:17
think we're seeing the belly of the labor movement, and we're supposed to scratch it.
Zain
28:22
So what can broader labor do if ATA is not going to do these moves? What would their—they don't have control over the ATA, but, like, the Federation and other— and I know we're getting deep into labor politics, but, like, I mean, what else, folks, right? In some ways, this is the existential moment, so let's talk about it. What can the broader movement, allied organization, labor congresses, What can they do in this moment, if anything? Shannon, do you want to take a stab at this first?
Shannon
28:51
Well, I mean, the good news is that some of the financial pieces have been made so that, you know, unions can give a little bit. And there's more third party advertising that can happen, that kind of thing, because they had some restrictions that have now been lifted. So I think obviously they should use them.
Shannon
29:09
And I think that they should be there for on the legal
Shannon
29:13
legal strategy. But honestly, there's
Shannon
29:15
there's almost nothing that a labor central can do at
Shannon
29:24
if I were a labor central, I would be asking myself, how much more am I going to do, given that this organization, the ETA does not pay dues into the Federation of Labor. This
Zain
29:35
This would be a move for solidarity rather than defense of a paying dude member, so to speak. Is that fair enough? Because they're not affiliated
Shannon
29:42
affiliated to the House of Labour and never have been.
Shannon
29:45
And so, you know, if they wanted that kind of solidarity, then their members and their local presidents and others should be going to their next executive council meetings and saying we should benefit from the broader protections that being affiliated to the House of Labour brings us.
Zain
30:05
Carter, while I agree with what Shannon's saying, for the most part, I do think there is obviously a very selfish aspect to all of this, which is, if they can do this to the teachers, they can do this to anyone. I'm like, this, this, fuck this, the downstream effects here are blindingly obvious. Obvious. So
Zain
30:21
So for labor to step in, even if it's a not due paying member and there's a history there and there's, I'm sure, a very complicated, interesting history that we can write a book about in terms of why. And Shannon and I have kind of scratched the surface in a previous episode around the ATA and their union side and their professional association side to get started on that. But Carter, this existential level threat is not just about the teachers, but any labor organization negotiation going forward.
Zain
30:47
What can and should they do here? I know you've laid out your game plan for the teachers. What can Labor Central or a labor central organization like Shannon's mentioned do here? here tell
Carter
30:57
their members that this is coming for them next right
Carter
31:00
right tell their members this is coming for you next we need to we need to get militant we need to get ready we need to get prepared and then you need to put the chessboard on the table and start making your moves because
Carter
31:13
you know you're going to let's
Carter
31:14
let's say you spend your aupe or your uh the uh health sciences uh whatever their acronym is um hsa is that the one yes
Carter
31:25
yes sure let's say that okay um
Carter
31:30
you're going to be the next ones on the front right
Carter
31:32
right una is already united nurses of alberta have already signed their deal um
Carter
31:36
um you're you're the ones who are going to be facing this this next and
Carter
31:40
and you need to make sure that you're prepared that so
Carter
31:43
so that when it happens not if it happens When it happens, you've got the game plan and the battle plan to actually do what the teacher should have done, which is to start, you know, on day one, military, you know, being militant and actually activating
Carter
31:58
activating your membership, doing the wildcat strikes, doing the work to rules, doing
Carter
32:03
all the pieces, bringing in the other labor organizations. organizations um this
Carter
32:08
needs to happen now uh because the planning has to happen now because the moves are going to happen in the next i think i think the unions are negotiating these things right now i don't
Shannon
32:19
don't think that has some long-term care workers uh
Shannon
32:22
uh in bargaining with ahs and uh you know i saw a thing from the president the other day saying make sure that you you know sign up for your uh union you know identification number or your union uh online account because because this is how you'll get your strike pay if we end up going on strike. So that's where they're at, is they're at, you know, they are in readiness mode. HSAA has bargaining next week as well. We'll see what happens with them. But I think that where you'll see this more is at the, is at AAPE, because they changed up their president. I think the membership is quite restive. They've been treated like absolute shit. These are, vast majority of these workers are women. uh they are more recently arrived at canadians they make garbage wages and uh uh they you know i i can see where where they are entirely impatient uh with uh the situation as it as it is facing them right now okay
Zain
33:18
okay so carter i think there's a lot of people hearing this who
Zain
33:22
who are outraged but have now been told that they're a minority not a majority last
Zain
33:27
last week we said they needed to be in the majority right like i'm just trying to set the stage a bit so let me just kind of like So you said if the narrative next week is not, holy shit, what do they do, versus I want my kids back at school, it's a good sort of litmus test of saying whether you're in the minority or majority. A lot of people are realizing today, especially those listening to this podcast, I imagine that they're outraged, but potentially in the minority of folks. They may disagree or agree, but that's your analysis right now. You've also kind of laid out a plan of what needs to happen for
Zain
33:55
for central labor and then the ATA.
Zain
33:58
And you've also given us your take, both of you have, on both these things around what the UCP stands to lose and some of their mistakes, but also where they might be, quote, unquote, winning here.
Zain
34:08
Which kind of brings me to what does civil society and what can they do right now?
Zain
34:14
Relying on labor doesn't seem to be it. We'll talk about the NDP in a moment. But I wanted to talk about them because there's probably a lot of people listening to this hearing maybe for the first time or kind of snapping into focus for the first time, something I think both of you may agree that this movement may have peaked given the inputs we have seen right now, at least the movement on Bill 2 at this moment on the notwithstanding clause, to be clear. So, Carter, what
Zain
34:39
have right now, those listening to this podcast and others, if it's not going to be the ATA, the AFL, any of these institutions, if it's not going to be, and not to prejudge the NDP, what
Zain
34:48
what is their role here right now at this moment? I think the civil society
Carter
34:51
society should be doing what they did to Raj and Sani. I think that, you know, the minority, the vocal minority is heard oftentimes by this UCB government because they do listen to the vocal minority. This would just be the opposite side of the vocal minority. I love them going to Sonny's town hall and shouting her down, calling for a recall petition.
Carter
35:13
Demetrios Nikolaidis has a recall petition against him in Calgary Bow. Sign it, you know, do what you need to do. I mean, forever Canada, this fucker. I don't give a shit. You know, my prediction is that they'll get more than enough signatures in Calgary. This
Zain
35:32
This is the moment of the show where we play a trailer with heroic music espousing the greatness of Thomas Lukasik. Now, Haxum, can you please just create that song and interject it with Carter's prediction? This is, of course, the Thomas Lukasik celebration segment of the show. from
SPEAKER_00
35:50
the fairies to the rockies his name rings now in him clear thomas a man of people cheer with pen in hand and fire in his soul he rallied the province made unity the goal oh lord now the people rise again on cold petition they'll take it to the end they'll I'll organize to complete the deed. Even Stephen Carter thinks you'll succeed.
Carter
36:24
we're back to you. I don't think we need that. I don't think we need that. It sucks
Zain
36:27
sucks for you because it just happened. It
Carter
36:29
I'm just throwing a note there. I think what we need is we need to be realistic here and say that, I mean, obviously, the Calgary Bowl recall petition is going to happen, and, you know, Nicolaides is going to be gone. um but i i i mean i
Carter
36:47
don't know if you're
Zain
36:47
you're fucking around with us here on that particular one just to be clear of course i
Carter
36:51
why why would i change my mind uh
Carter
36:53
uh 60 although 60 of the people who voted is a much much smaller number to get over than some of the earlier recalls not in calgary bow they had a high turnout there but anyway still it's it's easier than 60 of the the voters um you know but it's i mean bow is going to be uh
Carter
37:12
uh it's going to be tricky it's going to i don't think it's going to happen but uh i'm expert at at uh the predictions on these things um number two
Carter
37:24
call everybody go to their town halls i mean it's the same thing it's number one and number two just just make it happen those are my only things i'm done shannon
Zain
37:33
shannon what else can people do like carter i appreciate your advice but it's almost like fucking do the stuff you're supposed to do like do it and do it well uh i guess like you don't seem to have a lot of hope interjected behind your voice i guess is what i'm trying to say we
Carter
37:49
we elect dictatorships right
Carter
37:51
right when you're elected to a majority government you get to do whatever the fuck you want to until such time as you have to call another election especially
Shannon
37:58
especially when you do this when you introduce introduce a piece of legislation in one day uh that is insulated from judicial review and you pass it within a few hours you don't have any opportunity then for the public as disconnected as they are uh right now to be able to engage in the material right
Shannon
38:17
right so like they've got cut all of that off and
Carter
38:19
and sorry shannon but they you don't hear any internal rumblings oh you know cyril turton's really upset you know he's not he's not he should be he should be furious he should be walking to the premier's office and saying i want to give back the 38 000 that i get for being a minister of the crown you know but he's not going to um you know children's services minister and your teachers are getting screwed right
Carter
38:42
right now he's not the education minister these aren't his teachers but
Carter
38:45
but the system works hand in hand you
Carter
38:48
you know if we don't have education if we don't have proper education we're not putting
Carter
38:52
putting out the kids that are going to be able to get survive in today's society society i just don't understand where these people are um you know we had two uh two people who stood on principle um whose
Carter
39:05
whose names are escaping me right now peter
Zain
39:08
steven oh you mean the two the two now the pc revival folks the pc
Carter
39:12
pc revival guys um
Carter
39:15
they stood and all of
Zain
39:16
of the ndp i don't
Shannon
39:18
mean those guys yeah okay they stood on but the ndp
Carter
39:22
who's who else is standing on principle is anybody else standing so without without the nd without the ucp being the dictatorship they are with the ndp doing what it's doing right
Zain
39:37
okay let's talk well you tell me you
Zain
39:39
you tell me you you say with a disgusting face for those that are not watching this a
Carter
39:45
a disgusting face disgusted
Zain
39:46
disgusted i mean the face is disgusting but the face the disgusting face is disgusted sorry sorry
Zain
39:52
sorry i'm just sorry just to be clear my god just that's the disgusting face that you hold is disgusted uh is that is that a good sentence i think that's a proper yeah
Carter
40:04
yeah you brought it all together i mean people watching the video stream will be all confused yeah oh no
Zain
40:11
no they'll get it they'll
Zain
40:12
they'll get it you
Zain
40:14
you don't seem pleased i'm
Carter
40:16
pleased why not what
Carter
40:18
what am i i speak what am i seeing what
Zain
40:20
what are you saying tell me what you're seeing tell me if you're seeing it algorithmically tell me if maybe that's the case but tell me if you're just not liking the message or not liking the tone you're not liking the volume or what
Carter
40:30
what are things you
Carter
40:30
you are liking i'm
Carter
40:31
i'm not seeing i'm not seeing it i'm
Carter
40:34
i'm not i mean i see little tidbits of of nancy being outraged okay um
Carter
40:40
you know that's interesting where's the you know you
Carter
40:44
you couldn't filibuster this piece of legislation legislation.
Carter
40:47
Can you try and fuck with them in other ways? Where's your house leader standing up in the house or making it difficult on them? You know, trying to snap, you know, trick, you know, not everybody's in the house all the time. Well, let's put all the fucking NDP members in the house all the time. Let's make sure that everybody's got house duty for the next three weeks and force the UCP to have every one of their members in the house so that they don't lose their fucking government you're
Carter
41:13
you're right we're gonna do we're we're
Shannon
41:15
we're gonna just do some stuff we're
Carter
41:16
we're just gonna do
Carter
41:17
stuff i don't see any stuff coming from the ndp i'll
Zain
41:22
i'll let you respond i'll let you get into this shannon not particularly respond unless you want to but but carter to be clear you've talked about simply legislatively what are you seeing messaging and communications virtually
Carter
41:32
virtually nothing messaging i see i'm seeing i mean maybe but maybe my tiktok's all filled up with uh four non-blondes singing some song uh from the 1990s and then nikki minaj coming in talking about motherfuckers i don't i don't know i i i can't you know maybe it's my tiktok algorithm maybe i'm not seeing it but i'm not seeing it from the ndp yes
Zain
41:57
yes okay shannon i'll let you get into your and and i'll put a pin on not seeing it for the ndp because i've got a question for you there carter again but shannon what
Zain
42:05
what do you think for the new democrats we mentioned what they needed to do you talked Talked about leader-centric, not head-focused. But then, Carter, you also mentioned spread out the love, have a lot of people kind of address this topic, make it singular. They seem to have taken that particular approach. But, Shannon, we're a week in, just slightly less than a week. What do you think?
Shannon
42:26
There hasn't been a whole lot on this topic since they passed it, except for calling Daniel Smith a coward. Which was weird. That seems
Zain
42:38
seems to be the line I've heard a few times. You don't like it? Neither of you seem to like it.
Carter
42:43
I'm not in love with it. Tell me why. Danielle Smith is a tyrant. That I can get behind. Danielle Smith is a dictatorial. I can get behind. Danielle Smith is a coward because, what, she went away on an airplane?
Carter
42:59
I don't follow it.
Shannon
43:01
I think that we're better off usually when we're talking about people's priorities and whether they align with the voters or not, I felt like it was a bit too personalized. And I worry about that, on the sort of personalizing on it rather than drawing it back to the issue. It makes it too Nahid versus Danielle, which I don't love. I would prefer that
Shannon
43:26
that it's Danielle versus the voters and him as an avatar for people's interests. I really think that he's better off there. I think there's, it just, it's a bit of a clanger for me. Otherwise, it's a bit of an eye poker, right? I don't, I think there might be gender things happening there too. I just, I don't know
Shannon
43:49
know what I don't like about it, but I don't, I'm not in love with it. I also think that, you know, going to Saudi Arabia and UAE to, you know, advocate for our oil interests, whatever bullshit patina she put on it, um that's not really cowardly for a good chunk of the population they think that she's you know doing business for the province which she's not she's just basically uh figuring out how you know she can like uh
Shannon
44:18
her money on the back end when she leaves politics let's all be clear what she's doing there um but uh so i
Shannon
44:25
i i just i didn't love coward i don't think it fits with what actually happened um and that was kind of where the message stopped right
Shannon
44:33
right uh ledge friday comes on the thursday uh everybody goes back to their ridings and they start back in on monday uh and so and i didn't see a lot of sustained i am the worst focus group ever in terms of the algorithm because all of these people are my friends obviously and my uh like so my feeds are not a good not representative of what normal people because i i see everything that all the caucus Right. And the like the individual MLAs and the and the others. So, but
Shannon
45:01
think it's actually helpful
Zain
45:02
helpful to maybe combat Carter's
Zain
45:03
Carter's sort of like, oh, if I see it, then then it exists. I see
Shannon
45:06
see it all, right?
Shannon
45:07
right? And I see more of it than normies. Way more.
Shannon
45:11
And I also did not see what is something that the caucus is usually really good at, which is everybody doing their, the bill just passed, here's what this means for you, kind of a thing, right? Like either the next day. Like 30 versions of
Zain
45:26
of a similar message.
Shannon
45:27
Exactly. And we had done that in the past. I, you know, it's one thing that you can do. Is it everything? No, but it's just one of those, just one of those little, you know, put a quarter in the machine sort of things that you do as a caucus because
Shannon
45:40
because they all, or many of them anyway, have their own social media followings. And it's a good way to amplify or stand there with a leader and do it sometimes, right? Like there's all kinds of different variations on the theme. Of
Zain
45:51
Of this thing. Um,
Shannon
45:52
and, uh, uh, and fundraising wise, you know, there were a couple of emails, uh, so that's good. Um, but, uh, uh, it would seem to me that, um, there's, there's a bit more that could be done to amp up the urgency here.
Zain
46:06
Carter, I'll ask you the same question, and then I'll go back to something Shannon's put on the table, which I thought was a very fascinating point around the frame of, do the NDP want Nahed versus Danielle as the key sort of question, or do they want the voters versus Danielle? And I don't know, Shannon, if you meant that for this particular question, or if you meant that as perhaps the more overall frame of a referendum versus Danielle. On this particular question, I feel like. Okay, cool. Okay, so that's helpful to get, but I want to get Carter Dwayne on that in a second, though. Carter,
Zain
46:31
Carter, same question to you. Window closed for the New Democrats? The same question I asked about the labor. Or window closing and they can do stuff, and if so, what does the Stephen Carter design campaign for the New Democrats look like for Monday, November 3rd?
Carter
46:46
i mean uh if there if there's going to be any wildcat actions from the ata then the ndp have to go and stand with them and be with them uh if if the ata does what i expect it's going to do which is just kind of allow things to to
Carter
47:00
boil over here and disappear um you know that that's not going to happen um the
Carter
47:07
the ndp can't fight this fight by themselves the ndp need uh uh the the catalytic moment and the catalytic moment was 10 you know was has passed you know the the we're going to go out on general strike i mean the unions and the ndp the the progressive side of the of the of the of the zone if you will has kind of fucked this up in my mind there's uh the ndp don't have much going for it the ata doesn't have much going for it um i think that The next move on the chessboard is to wait for the next action, and hopefully they'll do it better.
Zain
47:46
Shannon, Carter also brings up a fascinating point, which is do these folks all need each other, or can they all go on their own to generate enough? Obviously, optimally, labor, ATA more specifically, the subset of labor in this situation, the New Democrats, the Gen Pop would all kind of coalesce, and this would all be one big soup sort of thing. But the question I did have at the heart of it was, can the NDP go alone here if ATA and labor and others don't propel
Shannon
48:14
I mean, because they have different interests, right? I mean, the NDP is talking to the gen pop, obviously, to progressives, to parents, to teachers, right? And people who work in education in a broad sense and people
Shannon
48:28
people who teach in education faculties and people who, you know, there's a broad sort of education community, right? Right. I'm thinking here of my my own constituency where there's a big faculty of education. So if this sort of thing was happening, this is the sort of thing that I would be going and talking to them. I would be doing stuff. Right. But, you know, the NDP has a completely different constituency in many ways than Labour. Right. Because Labour is there to get deals for its members.
Shannon
48:57
That is that is what they are hired to do. The New Democrats are there to show that they can stand up to the government, that the job that they were hired for in 2023, holding the government to account, is something that they are doing while demonstrating that they can also govern the place and that they have the ideas and the competence and all of those kinds of things. And so they have completely different assignments in that way, and they absolutely should go it alone. Do they make this the centerpiece? I think this is another proof point in we have, you
Shannon
49:31
know, an education and health care system that are falling apart because we have government with wrong priorities. And they're off doing whatever they are doing, you know, catering to their extremist base, doing separatism nonsense, whatever. Meanwhile, you are getting a raw deal, you person whose insurance just went up.
Shannon
49:49
So that's the NDP's assignment is to use this as another proof point. Has
Zain
49:55
Has the assignment changed, Carter, for this week from your advice, which is talk about the teachers and nothing else? Even if you might be admitting that, to your words, the moment is gone or the moment is nearly gone, would you still encourage them that teachers, teachers, teachers for the next seven days or is it time to pivot?
Carter
50:18
I think that you can try it for the next seven days. But if it doesn't, if it, you know, you got to watch it carefully. And if it doesn't click, then you got to pivot.
Carter
50:26
Shannon, what do you think?
Shannon
50:26
think? Well, they also have an opportunity to do something on notwithstanding clause, right? Like WAP has done. So WAP Canoe has brought in a piece of legislation, Bill 50, that outlaws the, that says that, you know, basically they have to bring it to the legislature and repeal that legislation if they ever want to use the notwithstanding clause or something, right? Yeah,
Zain
50:44
Yeah, they've got some sort
Shannon
50:45
sort of. They can still do it.
Zain
50:45
it. So we're going to bring in some type of judge who's going to tell us if they could use it. And if that, we'll still use it. So that people are poking holes. So, I mean, the New Democrats
Shannon
50:53
Democrats could bring that in as some kind of private members bill. I think they're doing it in Saskatchewan. There's some people who are agitating for the government of British Columbia to bring in similar legislation. So that is something that certainly the New Democrats can and should do. And, you know, chase the UCP MLAs around with it, along with, you know, why didn't you, how are you going to vote on the Forever Canadian question?
Shannon
51:18
question? question it's an it's just another way to do wedging uh in the house and embarrass the ucp to to um to carter's point about uh you know making the shoes pinch just a little bit for some of these guys carter
Zain
51:33
carter i'm going to ask you the final question here before we move to over under lightning for for a slightly elongated version of it if you guys have a bit of time we
Carter
51:40
we do we just we do nothing but have time oh
Zain
51:43
oh fantastic when you
Carter
51:44
you do a nine minute promo for your live show we
Zain
51:46
we have have to have time you have to have time i think it's a great it was 10 minutes uh if shannon's summary wasn't there it'd be nine minutes so i blame shannon way
Carter
51:53
way to go shannon
Zain
51:54
yeah way to go with that pithy one minute i accept
Zain
51:56
hey carter uh shannon's question the nod versus danielle frame that seems to be kind of what new democrats frankly would i would even kind of suggest would be the overall frame i'm not putting shannon's position saying that this is what the campaign shouldn't be about but you made a really interesting point on this question where you kind of want it to be the voters versus danielle any like i know the campaign's a ways away but back Lack of napkin Stephen Carter thoughts on how the new Democrats should be even thinking about the broader frame versus Nahed versus Danielle, referendum on Danielle, those sort of things as they shape up for what could be, you know, many speculating a spring election and then if not a 27 election of some kind.
Carter
52:32
Yeah, I mean, Nahed standing up for me and Danielle standing up for her friends is more of the framing I would go for. So it's not Danielle versus Nahed. It's Nahed's on my side and Danielle's not. lot that's the the framing that i would aim for i think there's all kinds of evidence that not that danielle smith is not on your side and you can she's not on your side on cost of living look at insurance look at gas look at you know all the expenses that continue to go up hey running a household in alberta has never been more expensive she's not on your side when it comes to education look at the teacher strike look at the classroom size she's not on your side when it comes to to educate or when it comes to health care when
Carter
53:13
when she's not on your side when it comes to post secondary education she's
Carter
53:16
she's just not on your side and not hidden and she is not
Carter
53:19
not hidden and she is and that framing i think could work really well um and i think that it could be it's set up over time rather than unfolded at the last minute and i think that that's something you have to always think about is if i have if i do this framing will it run out of legs um will it actually work in the timeline that I have articulated.
Zain
53:42
We're going to leave that segment there, moving on to our over, under, and our lightning round. Shannon Phillips, Stephen Carter, there's so many things that we couldn't get into in deep format on, but I want to start with this. And Shannon, let me start with you.
Zain
53:52
The political upside, okay, this is going to be a bit of a word sale, the political upside on the notwithstanding clause. It has become a hot topic recently, obviously with Alberta. You now see conservative premiers across the country encouraging the feds to use it over the weekend. on Friday with a Supreme Court ruling, you know, Doug Ford, Pierre Polyev, Danielle Smith,
Zain
54:13
the conservative premiers, and frankly, like leadership, if you can call it that.
Zain
54:18
Overrated or underrated in terms of the political juice the notwithstanding clause could have in terms of advocating for its usage if you're conservatives, and then, you know, trying to what the NDP in Manitoba have done and what Nahid Nenshi has alluded to in Alberta, which is we'll never do it, or progressives are trying to do. What do you kind of make? Overrated or underrated, they're not withstanding clauses as it relates to being a political football.
Shannon
54:42
think until very recently, it was pretty underrated. But now we've seen that there may just be enough kind of far-right rage on any given topic to override the Constitution. And you feel like you're sticking it to the man when you're overriding our fundamental freedoms and taking away the court's ability to make decisions. That's what it feels like to me, is that we're in, you know, we're far past this land of conservatives who, you know, have respect for rule of law and defer to courts or have
Shannon
55:15
have any respect for our foundational documents or fundamental liberties. And so, it feels to them like they're, you know, righting a wrong when
Shannon
55:25
when they do this. That Supreme Court decision that prompted the fracas over the weekend is tremendously complicated. I was just looking into it this afternoon. Yeah.
Shannon
55:34
But it's it's a pretty easy one to kind of say, oh, well, I'm going to, you know, stick it to the elites and use the notwithstanding clause. And I think there's such inflammatory
Zain
55:44
inflammatory terms in it, too. Right. Exactly. And it's it's it lends it to that. Carter, what do you think right now is like a political operator and as a strategist, overrated, underrated, the notwithstanding clause as it relates to an issue. And I hate to slice and dice a core element of our liberty and freedoms in that way, but it is being driven on this partisan track right now, which is dangerous in its own right. But as a practitioner, what do you think, overrated or underrated?
Carter
56:13
guess it's underrated because we didn't anticipate any government grabbing onto it the way that Daniel Smith has. You know, all of a sudden, if you start using the notwithstanding clause in every piece of legislation. And
Zain
56:27
And frankly, we are expecting it again in this session with the trans right. We could be seeing it in
Carter
56:31
in four pieces, three, four pieces of legislation. legislation um and uh
Carter
56:37
uh you know taking away people's rights is serious business um we
Carter
56:43
we didn't think any government would have the balls to do it like that right and this this government does and uh they're
Carter
56:51
they're not going to be punished for it no
Carter
56:54
not going to get punished uh so what does that that tell us when you're scott moe who's now saying i like it i like what what's happening alberta
Carter
57:05
what does it say for the rest of the country um when what does it say when progressives don't get the court case that they want right when progressives you know uh you know there's a ruling that all of a sudden a pipeline can go across british columbia and uh the the progressive progressive side of the of the table says you know what let's use the notwithstanding clause the
Carter
57:28
notwithstanding clause will work in this in this situation i
Carter
57:31
mean you're you know the the conservatives may are so fucking stupid they only seem to think that things will work on their side right it works on the other side too guys um
Carter
57:40
um i'll tell you as many people are pissed off about the notwithstanding clause being used against teachers across the country you
Carter
57:48
you watch when it gets used on a fucking pipeline you morons um and i
Zain
57:53
feel like their strategic
Zain
57:53
calculation if i'm giving them a bit more charity is that they a feel like only their side will use it because b the other side is too weak or meek or principled or morally aligned to the charter to use it then in fact on that very partisan train of thought that is kind of what we are seeing is that you're You're seeing the left say, we're going to abide by the charter. We're not going to use it. And the right saying, if this is a political trap, you're falling into it. So, you know, you
Zain
58:23
you could see what bed they're making, Carter, the collective right in this country. Like, it's very clear what bed they're trying to make, which is we know both sides can use it, but only we have the, you
Zain
58:34
you know, insert your word of choice here. You know, I'd say moral indignity to use it.
Carter
58:43
things always get turned around right for
Carter
58:46
for the we were all drifting towards liberalism remember remember the early 2000s oh my god if everything was put into
Zain
58:52
into the right yeah yeah and then
Carter
58:54
then all of a sudden um the tools and techniques and tactics that we were using for the progressive side got taken in and bastardized by the right you
Zain
59:04
you think the same you would not be surprised that in 10 years a a more left-leaning government uses a notwithstanding clause to strike down like i'm just making a bunch of assumptions around where we're at as a country court issue
Carter
59:14
issue something that happens right yeah
Carter
59:16
um uh an indigenous group is is uh is ruled against uh in opposition to something right
Carter
59:26
right the notwithstanding clause is then used to support the indigenous group i mean obviously it's a good it's a good use of the notwithstanding clause it's
Shannon
59:35
it's tough because the notwithstanding clause only um uh applies to like essentially what comes down to our individual liberties and
Shannon
59:44
and uh so essentially like your fundamental freedoms expression association and then you know your democratic uh and it doesn't apply to your democratic rights but like your security the person and privacy rights so i could see it potentially i mean i'm trying to i'm just trying to do the mental uh work to figure out where on on the progressive left would you ever uh use this religion is really the only uh category that i can see where it could come back uh on or um far right extremist organizations uh it can if it's religions like welcome to quebec in some
Shannon
1:00:21
like welcome to rehashing
Zain
1:00:22
rehashing what quebec's doing and there's a lot of progressive people maybe not a lot like but there's people like me who are progressive and religious and you know that's a very different podcast but who frankly frankly, feel abandoned by the left as it relates to religion, because the left, frankly, has become a, frankly,
Zain
1:00:38
frankly, atheist agnostic sort of left, like, to be clear. That is what
Shannon
1:00:44
That's where I'm trying to
Shannon
1:00:45
to go with this. I'm trying to think like, Secularist, I guess, using Quebec
Shannon
1:00:49
Or on freedom of expression for like, to override some stuff on what constitutes hate speech. Like, We have a pretty good regime here in Canada, but as we've seen, there's been all kinds of innovations, if you will, on freedom of expression on hate speech. So I could see that, but I'm struggling to find any other instance where it would. But Carter is right that, I mean, progressive governments could decide, you know, if things get super spicy on the right, that, note, we're outlining these groups, these forms of association, these forms of dissemination of information. No, you can't access this. That absolutely could happen.
Zain
1:01:35
Carter, in or out on the Ford ad or an end in or out on Carney asking Ford to pull it?
Carter
1:01:41
I'm in on the Ford ad. I am out on Carney pulling it.
Zain
1:01:48
Why? Who wants to go first? Shannon, you go first.
Shannon
1:01:52
I just, I mean, I think it became a mountain out of a molehill, A. B, I think that we have to create leverage. And Doug Ford has been the only person in this country, essentially, to create leverage, both with the electricity stuff and now with this. And we don't have any, or at least we've walked away from a lot of the leverage that we do have. Uh, and, um, I, and I, and really what this shows is that there's a lack of coordination between the premiers, uh, and, uh, uh, the prime minister and industries of various kinds. That's a real huge problem, uh, uh, for the government of Canada. I think this shows something larger, but in the meantime, we just look, look like a bunch of just like real
Shannon
1:02:38
real weaklings, uh, with pulling it. Carter,
Zain
1:02:41
Carter, anything to add?
Carter
1:02:43
would just say that if you're going to pull it, if you're going to demand that it get pilled, what are you getting from Trump?
Carter
1:02:51
if you're going to do something like that, you better get something.
Zain
1:02:54
Well, yes. And you mean, and from a practitioner perspective, you mean you better get something and communicate what you're getting to the public? Exactly.
Carter
1:03:02
You know, I got a new round of negotiations started at
Carter
1:03:06
at something. That could work.
Carter
1:03:08
but I demanded that we pull the ad and nothing changed
Carter
1:03:13
fuck you, let's go
Zain
1:03:20
my take is very similar to you guys which is I think this has actually opened up an issue for Carney which is I think there's a good portion of this country still that doesn't give a fuck about where these trade negotiations are because we haven't been brought along and would rather just have a moment of catharsis to be like yeah fuck you for a second and even if that costs us who gives a shit like we haven't been brought along anyways so you know like do you remember elbows
Zain
1:03:43
what the fuck do we know if that's right well I think there's still a cohort of people who want to be elbows up we
Carter
1:03:47
we all bought into elbows up for
Zain
1:03:49
for sure we were up in elbows and I think there's still a group of people who are like are we not doing that anymore and Doug Ford's like I'm always fucking doing that and I think there is still an appetite there now it seems like those two can play well together Ford and Carney but we'll see for how long final
Zain
1:04:03
final question Stephen Carter Carter, we want to do a whole budget thing because we'll wait till the budget comes. There's just a lot of stuff related to the budget. And I think for me, the most interesting thing is, Stephen Carter, what are you looking for from this budget, a top line, that may or may not signal how Carney does in the weeks and the months ahead?
Zain
1:04:25
And I'm not asking for one metric. It doesn't have to be a metric. It could be a story, a narrative, whatever. ever but carney's
Zain
1:04:30
carney's honeymoon season so to speak let's just classify right now in my words not yours so you don't have to agree that he's still in it the budget to me could be the inflection point what are you looking for in said budget big or small that will indicate to you that he's going to continue on this ride or he's going to decelerate into orbit once again the
Carter
1:04:53
the budget is a communications device. Corey taught us that, right? Corey said this is all about communications. Well, here we go. I
Carter
1:05:01
I want to see communicated the 15% cuts and then what was put back in, right? Because Carney has committed a lot of money outside of the 15
Carter
1:05:09
15% cuts. But that 15% cut that
Carter
1:05:14
happened right off the bat that Carney directed each of the departments to do, I want to see how that's communicated and how that is disseminated so that we can see the 15% cut and then what was put back in in order to make things actually work. I don't want to see just
Carter
1:05:32
just the big numbers. I want to see the cuts and how did those cuts actually get implemented. I'll be looking to see if that storyline continues because that storyline was really important. And I think it's one of the the things that's that differentiates the mark carney government from the justin trudeau government
Zain
1:05:50
shannon same question i
Shannon
1:05:52
i don't think those cuts are going to materialize i think that's going to be one of the big things but uh uh the the thing i'm going to be looking for is uh the stuff that he does around young people uh
Shannon
1:06:04
uh oh interesting i use unemployment we've got like they made big uh
Shannon
1:06:09
uh promises around apprenticeships skills training all of this stuff some people were critical of you know how he did the speech in front of the u ottawa people and didn't really you know just talked about sacrifice and not talked about young people yeah
Shannon
1:06:21
um by young people i mean i guess i'm getting old now by young people i mean like the 30s and under right like not not
Shannon
1:06:28
not uh not teenagers i'm talking about you know people who are even in their late 20s early 30s who you know i will never buy a house uh but also the job market's gotten really shitty uh for folks in that cohort um and so there is some talk of things like a youth job guarantee like the starmer government is examining stuff like that i'm really curious where that goes like we already know in broad strokes that there's going to be just like an orgy of spending on defense and this kind of stuff yeah we're
Shannon
1:06:58
gonna call it investment not spending uh but uh some of these other things that could could actually help
Shannon
1:07:06
help them through a SNAP election and do shore up an important demographic for them. I'm going to be curious how far they go or if it's just like boutique programs and, you know, resurrecting Katimovic or whatever. That
Carter
1:07:22
was a good program.
Zain
1:07:24
We are going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 1890 of The Strategist. We will see you live November 12th in Calgary. By the way, if you're not in Calgary, thestrategistlive
Zain
1:07:34
thestrategistlive.ca. That can get you a flight on Flair Airlines to Calgary. But before you do that, Carter, thestrategistlive.show.
Zain
1:07:43
.show. That's where they can get their tickets.
Zain
1:07:46
My name is Zane Velchie. With me as always, Stephen Carter, Shannon Phillips, and we shall see you next time.