Transcript
Zain
0:01
This is a strategist episode 1848H. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, well, he's not here, Carter. I was about to say it, because I go with his name first, but you know what? We don't care. Corey Hogan is not here, but guess who is? Stephen Carter. Guy, how are you doing? I'm doing
Carter
0:18
doing really well. I'm doing really
Zain
0:20
really well. My feet are cold.
Carter
0:22
And I'm sorry I left you hanging there. I forgot to press the record button.
Zain
0:27
Yeah, it was a pregnant pause.
Carter
0:30
figured it out, though, things went really much better. Things went better, and you were a pro. You muscled through.
Zain
0:37
People don't know this, but we do a lot of the preamble talk really to help Corey with his nerves. He's extremely nervous when it comes to doing this, and we don't actually need a lot of preamble talk between you and I, because a lot is left unsaid, and a lot is very much left aligned. Basically, we
Carter
0:53
we don't want to know about each other's family. Well,
Zain
0:55
Well, we just know. We just know about each other's family. Corey's really on the outside looking in, needs a lot of that preamble. Does he
Zain
1:01
ask for me? Why are you doxing my son publicly? What's going on, Carter? I'm not putting
Carter
1:06
putting a picture of him up or anything like that.
Zain
1:08
Oh, you know what? We should.
Zain
1:09
We should. He'd be so cute. That'd be nice. You know what?
Carter
1:13
Editor, can you just throw up a picture of a random child? Just throw up a picture of a random child. That'd be great. Thanks very much. Yeah,
Zain
1:23
That's perfect. Yeah, thank you. yeah i just like your child
Zain
1:27
no i appreciate it i i reversed course very quickly from
Carter
1:33
i care about your kid and this is the way you treat me they
Zain
1:37
they call that heterodox
Zain
1:38
that's what they do that's what the conservatives are using these days you know this term yeah this i think that's what it is no it's just it's a jd vance term by
Zain
1:45
by the way did you see jd vance just fucking rip a hole into into europe or try his level best with the the limited skill set he has has to do so?
Carter
1:53
Yeah, I mean, it's a limited skill set, and I'm not sure that it actually succeeded, but I appreciate his effort.
Zain
2:00
Carter, like I said, we don't need the preamble talk. We can get right into it. Let's go. Let's do a show.
Zain
2:04
Here's the thing. One of the things I admire about you, and I have for a long time, is that unlike Corey, who gives very long and cogent analysis, he often comes to the wrong conclusions. You, on the other hand, Stephen Carter, you're not one for the analysis. You feel political strategy in your bones, in your gut. And so what I want to do is I want to race through or run through as many as we can of strategic things happening right now. I'm going to give you strategic statements, and you're going to tell me whether they're right or they're wrong, and you're going to justify a bit why, but you're going to give me where the Stephen Carter political strategy gut is. And I say this may sound like a shtick and like everything on the show. It is. But I do think this is one of your superpowers. I do think this is one of the things you have a keen and unique ability to do, is tell us which direction to go. Is it left or is it right? Why? You've got it very quickly. You don't need a lot of time to think it through. Often you don't think it through. Often I don't think at all,
Zain
3:00
Unlike Corey, who overthinks it and then ends up at the wrong conclusion most of the time. And he
Carter
3:06
talking and it takes
Carter
3:07
seven minutes for him to get to his point.
Zain
3:08
point. You know, people think I'm the reason this show is long. Go back. Study the game tape, people. it's fucking cory hogan okay no it's both
Carter
3:16
both of you i
Zain
3:16
i speak approximately 14
Carter
3:18
14 of the time not
Carter
3:20
not that anybody's keeping track no one is this is big for me because i'm going to get all the way up to 34 today carter
Zain
3:27
carter here's what i want to do it's called the stephen carter um on the spot you're going to give me the on the spot answer to each of these things okay and i'm going to just run them right and as soon as i'm done we're going to end this episode because people are going to get more value you out of that than they do a normal episode in fact we may permanently banish cory after this
Carter
3:48
we'd split the money two ways right
Carter
3:51
right i'd still get my 60 and then you get 40 which would be pretty good for you it's
Zain
3:55
it's an upgrade from where i'm at right now which is four it is
Carter
3:58
is it's a big upgrade you're welcome carter here's the first one okay
Zain
4:02
okay here pauliev had a big rally this weekend it was his canada first rally he also introduced this this broader concept of Canada First, and I should say he also reintroduced axe attacks. Here's my strategic statement to you. Pierre Poliev should axe axe attacks. It's over, bud. Get rid of it. It's done. Carter?
Carter
4:24
He has to walk away from it, and it's not just that. He has to walk away from the idea of Canada First. The
Carter
4:29
The man only knows how to play one game, and
Carter
4:32
and because he only knows how to play one game, he's walking right into the trap that the carny and liberal Liberal people
Carter
4:37
people are putting forward, even the Liberal Party of Canada, not
Carter
4:40
not noted for their spectacular communication skills, have produced a video that's
Carter
4:46
that's going after, you
Carter
4:48
know, Pierre Palliev in such a fashion that we've never seen before out of this group of communicators, because it's one note and it doesn't recognize the time. The ability to take Canada first and play it against America first and
Carter
5:03
and to show all the different times that he said that Canada is broken.
Carter
5:08
I mean, there's some really great
Carter
5:11
opportunities for the Liberals and great opportunities for the
Carter
5:14
the Mark Carney campaign.
Carter
5:18
Pierre Polyev is just walking right into it.
Carter
5:20
And he just doesn't know how
Carter
5:22
how to play a different game. And that's what I love. I love it when there's a political operative on the field that doesn't know when it's time to turn the page and actually take a different page out of the strategic book.
Zain
5:33
So let me push back a bit. To him, Canada First was turning of the page. No? Right.
Carter
5:41
But for him, turning the page is like taking one of those books that you read to Sufi, and it's got all those thick pages with no words on it. That's how he's turning the page, because he's working at a juvenile level. level and this is no longer juvenile games this is this this is now for all the marbles and pierre polliev just frankly doesn't know how to play at this level he knew how to beat trudeau that was easy now he's got to try and beat mark carney christopher freeland and the liberal party
Zain
6:12
you saying that's like a taller task like is that is that what you're like talking about here
Carter
6:16
here right now it appears to be because the
Carter
6:18
the times have changed donald trump took took office. Everything shifted. The national anthem's being booed. People are buying Canadian. People are, you know, wanting to bring back the I am Canadian television ads. The zeitgeist has shifted. And once that zeitgeist shifts, you
Carter
6:36
you have to be able to shift with it or you're going to be left behind. And Pierre Polyev has, he's desperate. He's desperate to make the old hits play again. It's like listening to the Barenaked Ladies, frankly.
Zain
6:50
Wait, so tell me if the statement is correct.
Zain
6:54
Axe attacks got Pierre Poliev to where he is now. First place, shit ton of money, credentials, and credibility to be able to be in the pole position.
Zain
7:05
But it's not going to get him to what the finish line seems to be with the new emergence. Is that a fair statement in your mind? Because my strategic question, you should axe axe attacks. You're saying axe that, Zane, axe that. But in addition to that, get rid of Canada first, which he's just recently, that is his rebrand effort.
Carter
7:23
Right. The new paradigm in which he's going to be governed and evaluated is his maturity and his capacity to deal with Donald Trump.
Carter
7:31
And you're not going to be able to deal with Donald Trump using
Carter
7:33
using a three word slogan. I mean, Donald
Carter
7:36
Donald Trump only responds to strength and Pierre Polyev is not strong.
Zain
7:41
I'm going to throw two liberal strategic statements out at you and you tell me why they're right or wrong. OK, OK, I'll do them one after the other. Maybe I'll just go with this one first.
Zain
7:50
Liberals should do and put as much energy as they can to having audio and video and text statements of Pierre Polyev saying Canada feels broken over and over again. They should take that out from the archives. Not too long ago, folks. We're talking about mere weeks and months ago. That was part of the Pierre Polyev lexicon. It's part of the ad that made him famous and catapulted him two summers ago.
Zain
8:17
Liberals should take that, dust it off, and make sure Canadians understand what Pierre Polyev feels of this country. Is that right or wrong? Is that the right strategic thing to do, Stephen Carter? it's
Carter
8:26
it's the right decision because right now canadians are feeling a pride in their country that we haven't felt for a while and uh frankly we're against anybody who's picking on us right now and pierre paliev was picking on us pierre paliev was was hitting us when we were down instead of trying to lift us when we're down and he doesn't know how to lift this is the right strategy for the liberals the liberals should be doing this as much as possible using his words against him using his tone against him using the way he looks the way he sounds against him because what
Zain
8:59
what do you mean by the last two things tone and and like i and
Carter
9:02
and the way he
Carter
9:04
like take a look at the like it's
Carter
9:06
it's such disgust in his voice canada is broken it is it is a disgust it is a it's
Zain
9:14
it's almost like this place sucks
Zain
9:15
sucks right like this place is fucking
Zain
9:16
fucking worst right like
Carter
9:17
like it's like like my parents when they walked into our house after I threw that party in high school you know this place is disgusting this house is broken we're never going to be able to sell it I can't believe you did this um you
Carter
9:30
you know that was kind of that's
Carter
9:32
that's how he feels and he feels like he's disapproving of our ways disapproving of who we are and
Carter
9:39
we were buying it for two years we were like being pushed down and
Carter
9:43
and we were buying it and then another
Carter
9:45
another bully came along and
Carter
9:47
and we saw how to actually deal with that bully, and that's to push back.
Carter
9:51
And all Pierre Bolliev knows how to do is to be that bully that says it's broken. Well, god damn it, we're not interested in someone telling us it's broken. We're interested in someone telling us how to fix it.
Zain
10:02
The beauty of this segment is that we don't have to get necessarily deep, because I feel like you've got a lot of these answers at the tip of your tongue.
Zain
10:11
Liberal risk here. Like, if you were just, like, sitting there, and you're like, fuck it, this is like a slam dunk. This guy for the last three years has said this country's broken. This is now time to unite behind the flag. What would be the risk that you'd bring up in the room of this strategy? Or at least the cautionary note, because I know you're for it, but there's also guardrails and cautionary notes that you'd want to probably add to your team if this is the direction they're going.
Carter
10:33
Don't overcommit. Be prepared to turn the page. You know, Donald Trump is... Unlike him. Unlike
Carter
10:40
is coming out at us. And Donald Trump is, you
Carter
10:44
you know, he's making us feel one way today, but he can make us feel another way tomorrow, right?
Carter
10:50
right? We don't know how we're going to feel because we are being manipulated and bullied and pushed
Carter
10:55
pushed and shoved by another person, by another entity. And how that's going to make us feel three weeks from now is different than how it makes us feel today. So run those ads today, but be prepared that three weeks from now, you're going to need very different creative. That's not necessarily going going to be about Pierre, you know, drawing the contrast or drawing
Carter
11:15
drawing the comparison between Pierre Poliev and
Carter
11:20
Trump. I mean, you've got to be willing and able to be flexible and to recognize the timeliness of the message structure.
Zain
11:27
So maybe you'll agree with this next statement, too, because this is the second one about the liberals. For the longest time, we've said that the comparison towards Trump and the we, I mean, the collective we, the pundit class, the political class, that it's not necessarily wise to just call the person you're running against if they wear the conservative jersey, Trump or Trump-like.
Carter
11:46
No, I think this is the beauty of it. But
Zain
11:48
But the statement is, this moment is different for the liberals, and they should connect Pierre Polyev directly to Trump.
Zain
11:58
Agree or disagree with that statement? Or refine it, optimize it for me.
Carter
12:01
I disagree with the statement, because actually what they're doing with Pierre Polyev isn't comparing him to Trump.
Carter
12:07
They're not saying that he's like Trump. Can you
Zain
12:07
you inform people what they're doing? Because I actually don't have a good sense of it either. Tell me what they're doing right now. What
Carter
12:11
What I think that they're doing is, I think what they're doing is they're showing, not telling.
Carter
12:15
How often have I said show, don't tell in this conversation, right? Always show, don't tell. Pierre Polyev is the Trump of Canada, is telling.
Carter
12:24
Putting Pierre Polyev saying that Canada is broken, saying that Canada first, you
Carter
12:28
you know, immediately before Trump says America first. Imitation is a form of flattery. I mean, my God, this is, those ads were devastating, not because they said he was Trump. not because they they implied that he's got Trump like tendencies not because they name called him and called him a fascist or you know any of the number of things that the left has been known to do to the right and the right to the left
Carter
12:57
this instead was just simply showing how it was on how it was happening showing how it was all unfolding in real time showing his words comparing them to Donald Trump's words and it was a time where we're willing to listen and this is where it comes back to kind of your second point in that zane
Carter
13:12
zane which is the timeliness of this particular message when
Carter
13:15
when someone is willing to hear something you
Carter
13:18
you have to say it right
Carter
13:20
right um this goes back to nenshi right campaigning
Zain
13:23
campaigning where people live
Carter
13:23
live or where people are everybody thought oh they're on social media ergo we're campaigning on social media no we campaigned where people were we talked to them with the language that they wanted to hear at the time that they wanted to hear it. Sometimes people don't want long-winded explanations. Sometimes they do want long-winded explanations. Sometimes they want the six-word headline. Sometimes they want the 20-second summary. That is how you communicate with people. This is where I think, frankly, the liberals have found, either by luck or skill, I'm not sure which, they have found that people are wanting to listen to their voices now, and that has changed the entire paradigm.
Zain
14:05
So in that sense, though, Carter, are you suggesting that there is further appetite for showing the Polyev-Trump comparisons that many have written off and said, this is not sufficient enough, this is not strategic enough, this is not going to meet the moment, no one wants to hear this? you think there is. And tell me about how you assess the window. If you agree that there's an appetite, which I hear you saying, how big, how wide, how narrow is this window? How do you figure out when people have reached there? Because it's not like natural convention where people want to be like, my local domestic politician is like Trump. It's almost like the comedic equivalent of talking about airport and airline jokes, right? Everyone's got one. Everyone's got a comparison. they're relatively hacky right
Zain
14:54
right so how do you assess what the strategic window here is if you're the liberals or the ndp or a third party group wanting to to take a strip off of pierre polly f the
Carter
15:05
the window is as long as you can show and not tell the
Carter
15:08
the window is as long as that occurs like for example if
Carter
15:12
if instead you start talking i'm going to pick up on your airline thing because that gives me an opportunity and you know i always jump on these opportunities even if i sound like a a hack to you to you and well
Zain
15:22
you are a hack
Zain
15:23
all the rest of the listeners
Carter
15:24
listeners love this shit but
Carter
15:25
but the the uh you
Carter
15:27
you know donald trump fired faa uh
Carter
15:30
uh workers this week right yeah
Carter
15:34
if pierre poliev wins he's going to fire or decimate our airline industry as well by doing the exact same thing that trump did that's weak that doesn't have any basis in in reality that's
Carter
15:46
saying you know oh look he's just like this other guy he's just like donald trump well that's ridiculous that's not going to fly but
Carter
15:55
but when he's when you've got the words and you can actually show how he's behaving in a similar way like i would probably show um donald trump saying the exact same phrase over and over and over and over and over and over again and then just show the acts the tax like there's just you know there's great opportunities to start to show acts
Zain
16:16
campaigning and sloganeering right yeah that sort of vibe right what's
Carter
16:21
what's the answer not the slogan right
Carter
16:23
right donald trump doesn't have an answer pierre polliev doesn't have an answer you can you can show that you don't have to tell that and i think that that's where as long as they can show it then
Carter
16:34
then they can make the comparison as soon as they have to start telling it then i think they're really in trouble carter
Zain
16:39
carter there's there's new polling out um this is one of the few polls i've seen about the liberal leadership race. It says ultimately that the race is closer than the carny coronation that seems to be conveyed right now, at least sentimentally amongst organizers and
Carter
16:54
and the media at large. It's a Main Street poll, right?
Zain
16:58
Yes, that's the Main Street poll I'm alluding to.
Zain
17:01
Yeah, yeah, it's the Main Street poll I'm alluding to. I'm
Carter
17:04
I'm not going to break down why that is, why that's something I'm worried about.
Zain
17:11
I'm Here's my strategic statement. Tell me if you agree with it, disagree with it, and how to optimize it.
Zain
17:16
Conservatives should stop acting like Carney is the heir apparent.
Carter
17:22
Conservatives should pay a hell of a lot less attention to the liberal leadership race and start paying a hell of a lot more attention to what their answer to the question, what are you going to do for me, is.
Carter
17:31
Because asking the tax isn't the answer to the question anymore.
Carter
17:36
So what are you going to do for this country? What are you going to do to help lift us up should be what they're focused on. Not trying
Carter
17:42
trying to tear down Carney. The problem is that Jenny Byrne and Pierre Polyev have this capacity to
Zain
17:52
An unbelievable laser-like singular target. And arguably that job has been completed. Some
Carter
17:57
Some of the best destruction communications
Carter
18:01
communications in the world. They are some of the best communicators at that thing. But
Carter
18:07
But they don't have the legs to destroy Mark
Carter
18:11
Mark Carney right now. They don't have the legs to destroy Mark Carney and Christopher Freeland and Karina Gould.
Carter
18:18
If Main Street's correct, and it is a closer race than anybody thinks it is.
Carter
18:24
First of all, we
Carter
18:25
we didn't see any riding
Carter
18:27
riding by riding information. And this
Zain
18:29
this is not weighted. It's a point
Carter
18:31
point race, right? Right. So very,
Carter
18:34
very, very concerned about that particular information.
Carter
18:37
information. But let's say just for shits and giggles that they're correct.
Carter
18:44
That means that any one of the three front
Carter
18:45
front runners could wind up winning this thing.
Carter
18:50
This means that if
Carter
18:52
if you're Pierre Polyev, you
Carter
18:54
you should be doing your background research to get ready to destroy them in the three weeks you're going to have between them getting elected and the federal election being answered. are being called don't
Carter
19:03
don't try and destroy them in the midst of their leadership campaign when they're too strong it's
Carter
19:07
it's like they've cast a spell around themselves and they just can't be beaten and
Carter
19:12
and yeah i'm reading fantasy right now why
Carter
19:15
why do you ask what
Zain
19:16
what do you what do you what are you reading what
Carter
19:17
what are you reading a book okay
Carter
19:20
that's pretty good book pretty good it's like harry potter but different
Zain
19:24
old school book yeah
Zain
19:26
i'm getting ready i want to read
Carter
19:27
read sufi the uh the
Carter
19:28
the harry potter series
Zain
19:31
oh yeah well yes
Carter
19:32
yes i have to wait probably four more years six more years he's
Carter
19:35
he's pretty advanced it's pretty good i think you could start right now i'm coming over it's only two
Zain
19:41
carl listen can i tell you something we have rattled off i don't know how many but more than we would have if cory hogan were here i just want to let the audience know that and i want to let you know that that you were and what value we have gotten don't
Carter
19:52
don't use this as an excuse to finish it in the 20 minute mark people
Carter
19:55
people will lose their shit if we just do 20 minutes you
Zain
19:58
you know what i I wasn't going to, but now I want to desperately. No, you're not allowed
Carter
20:02
allowed to. People will lose their shit.
Zain
20:04
You know what we should do for the other 30? We should actually have you read Harry Potter.
Zain
20:09
Just have you read excerpts of... It'd be so
Carter
20:12
so good. It'd be so good. Almost like biblical text. We'd probably get sued.
Zain
20:15
You don't have a religion, so maybe this could be it. You could just read it as a biblical text. It is
Carter
20:20
is my biblical text. That is how
Zain
20:24
Thoughts on J.K. Rowling, Carter, while
Zain
20:26
while we're on the topic.
Carter
20:27
Oh, thank you. you thank you zane um while we're at it would you like to see me juggle fire torches and not get burned no i'm not gonna i'm not gonna break that down uh
Zain
20:38
uh carter we've gone through so many topics so much value has been given to people who've missed our episodes arguably more value than they would have gotten over three episodes that included cory that's what i say and i know that's what you're going to say right now listen i'll
Carter
20:51
i'll tell you something the cory and hogan the carter and hogan episodes yeah
Carter
21:00
but the zane and the zane and carter episodes are well loved too basically it's any episode i'm in people love let
Zain
21:06
me tell you this i've got i've got about six more of these things you want to hammer out six more do you need a break um
Carter
21:13
we're gonna have word from our sponsor and
Carter
21:15
and then we'll and then we'll come back with it and then we'll then we'll continue what
Zain
21:19
what do you mean a word from our sponsor have you not not heard everything's
Carter
21:23
everything's upside down right now that's
Carter
21:27
that's exactly where i was going
Zain
21:34
oh it's too early isn't it you want
Carter
21:35
want to talk about a hack uh hack airport joke there it is baby there
Zain
21:40
there you go hack airline material uh carter
Zain
21:42
carter let's go here okay
Zain
21:44
uh this is a big one actually
Zain
21:47
this one might take us a few minutes actually
Zain
21:48
actually there's two carny ones i want to go with and And I'll go with the big one second. Oh, good.
Carter
21:51
Carney. That's going to be good for me.
Zain
21:54
potential career. That's right, Carper. Yeah.
Zain
21:56
Carper, which is a Carney and Carter and Harper trifecta. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, that's Carper. Carney's Stephen Harper brag that
Zain
22:06
that Harper asked me to be finance minister is a solid comms choice by Mark Carney.
Zain
22:13
Yes, no, optimize it for me. So for the context, Rosemary Barton's Sunday morning show, Carney mentions that, you know, amongst other things, he's been asked to serve publicly before, including and surprisingly to many, myself included, by one Stephen Harper to be finance minister. And Carney mentioned a date that was, I believe, 2012,
Carter
22:34
was asked to do that.
Zain
22:35
It's a solid brag. It's a solid comms strategy. It's a solid brag. Greg Carter, it's a thing that's already happened, so you're not going to do the campaign much damage by giving your assessment on it. But it's a solid brag by Mark Carney. Yes, no, optimize.
Carter
22:50
You know, I didn't like it.
Carter
22:52
didn't like it. I don't like the idea of walking away from public service when being asked. And I feel that this is the problem with the Carney story. And I love the Carney story. I think the Carney story is super strong. I think it's really solid. But if you were to point to a weakness to it, It has been that he has been asked to serve and hasn't served.
Carter
23:13
He has been asked to serve a number of times. Now, one could argue that serving as the Bank of Canada governor is public service. One could argue that serving as the Bank of England governor is public service. And
Carter
23:26
And I'm sure that Mark Carney would make that argument if he was sitting here.
Carter
23:30
But it's not being the finance minister of
Carter
23:33
of an elected government.
Zain
23:35
You mean like the finance minister is different? That's a different type of service, you would argue? I
Carter
23:39
I think that that's a, I think, I
Carter
23:41
I have a higher bar. Why
Zain
23:42
Why do you think that? Why
Carter
23:43
Why do you think that that Bank
Zain
23:45
Canada governor versus front bench of a political party, why is that different levels of service?
Carter
23:53
Well, I think that one is accountable and the
Carter
23:55
the other is not as accountable, right? Like you get a five-year appointment to those Bank of England, Bank of Canada appointments. You're not really accountable to the people. And when you're the finance minister of the government of Canada, you are accountable to the people. When you're running to become the prime minister of the country, you're accountable to the people. And I would really like to see Mark Carney take a position
Carter
24:17
position of public accountability to the people. And I think that he has through his launch speech. I think he did through, you know, he is showing that he wants to be that. But I don't think that humble bragging about how you've been invited by every prime minister since the early 2000s to be a finance minister. mister, because
Carter
24:36
because there's only been two. Do you see what I did there? I do
Zain
24:39
do see what you did there, yeah.
Carter
24:41
But it just falls
Carter
24:45
falls flat for me.
Zain
24:48
It falls flat for you because of what it says about his lack of commitment, which is what I hear you say, or does it fall flat for you because it opens up a line of questioning where conservatives are like, well, technically he didn't ask you, Harper could come out. It kind of creates its own sub-narrative where it undermines credibility. Like, what do you think of that sort of story as related to putting out this anecdote by Carney on national television? well it's i
Carter
25:12
i mean it is dangerous isn't it you
Carter
25:14
you know like when someone i
Zain
25:15
i don't know where this goes i have no idea where this bouncing ball goes right yeah you
Carter
25:20
know i had the uh
Carter
25:22
hottest girl in grade 12 asked me to go to the to
Carter
25:25
to grad with her sure
Zain
25:27
sure i said no right
Carter
25:29
i said no um
Carter
25:31
you know that's that probably isn't a true story um
Carter
25:35
i i would imagine he's got receipts otherwise
Carter
25:37
otherwise he wouldn't have said it but
Carter
25:40
it's a little bit risky calling harper down on your head when you're kicking the shit out
Carter
25:44
out of uh pierre
Carter
25:45
pierre pellev so so dramatically i'm
Carter
25:47
i'm not sure i would have done it i just don't like it it doesn't it doesn't doesn't work for me here's
Zain
25:52
here's a simpler statement but perhaps more to unpack carney as soon as he wins assuming he does should call a snap election based on his plan to battle trump on tariffs he
Carter
26:05
he should call a snap election
Zain
26:07
on and do you agree with the second part of the statement based on his as a referendum on his tariff plan against trump or
Zain
26:15
position it as much as he can or best as he can on that question
Carter
26:21
know i i struggle with this why
Carter
26:23
why should we ever call an election what
Carter
26:25
what what is the what's the point of of calling an election i mean obviously it's to give people their due it's to give them their opportunity to speak and to choose but
Carter
26:33
but this idea that we have elections on major issues um
Carter
26:36
um and that the major issue is in fact defining ultimately
Carter
26:39
ultimately it's a personality and popularity contest most of the time so i mean outside of the free trade election in what 19
Carter
26:49
good god when was that 1988 this
Zain
26:53
this is the pre-nafta you're talking about yeah
Carter
26:56
you know outside of that when was the last time a lot we had an election that we thought oh
Carter
27:00
oh that's it was a single issue election and it really turned on that to
Zain
27:04
to your point they never are right like they never or rarely are so so when
Carter
27:09
say we're going to get a mandate we're going to go get a mandate to do these things
Carter
27:13
i'm going to go get a mandate to go do this you know it's
Zain
27:16
it's not how it actually works i get it i'm
Carter
27:18
yeah you can get a mandate you can get a mandate to do the
Carter
27:22
the things that but you're getting a mandate because of trust you're getting a mandate because people
Carter
27:26
people want your style of thinking it's larger than any specific issue and
Carter
27:31
it fits more within a brand structure and that brand is what people are are buying at the particular at that moment and sometimes the brand can last 10 years and sometimes the brand can last 20 years sometimes the brand only lasts three or four years um but
Carter
27:47
in in the case of carney he
Carter
27:49
he should call an early election because Because his brand is ridiculously strong.
Zain
27:55
that's why- Or is it just untested enough that he can get away with an extra 30 days if there's something in the window, such as a plan on tariffs and wrapping himself up in the flag and looking like the adult in the room? He just skates by it for another 30 days. This is no slight against Carney. There's no slight against Carney. But this is perhaps
Zain
28:16
perhaps part of the calculation. It's not that his brand is strong. I just think his brand is untested.
Carter
28:22
You know, you walk into the grocery store, there's new Coke, you pick up new Coke, you buy the new Coke and you drink the new Coke and you're like, that wasn't that bad. Then everybody else starts complaining about it. And you're like, yeah, I didn't like it either.
Carter
28:33
Right. Like the truth of the matter is when the new brand is appearing, people get excited about the new brand and
Carter
28:38
and they buy the new brand.
Carter
28:40
That's why you see companies rebrand themselves all the time.
Carter
28:43
Right. Alberta government telephones is gone.
Carter
28:47
It's TELUS. TELUS is an infinitely better brand.
Carter
28:50
It's the same as it was, except for now it's got everything else involved. But nonetheless, it's
Carter
28:57
you've got brand opportunity and you've got brand capacity,
Carter
29:02
you take advantage of it.
Carter
29:04
And that's what Doug Ford did.
Carter
29:06
And that's what Mark Carney should do. Or frankly, Chrystia Freeland. Or
Carter
29:12
Karina Gould. Gould, whoever
Carter
29:14
whoever wins the leadership, should
Carter
29:18
don't walk to an election.
Zain
29:22
Run into an election. But I still want to spend a bit more time testing the
Zain
29:27
the tariff idea. Because one of the reasons Carney or Gould or Freeland have a chance is because Trump is now part of the potential ballot box question, at least for a growing crop of Canadians. I'm not going to say a majority of Canadians, but it's enough to have Pierre Poliev pivot his strategy and do Canada First rallies and make axe to tax secondary. I know you've argued both of those should go away, but it's enough to get the leader of the opposition who's been on the same track to respond and read the room. And so one of the things that Carney or any of the leadership candidates that emerge would be doing is reading the room. Why not try to, in
Zain
30:05
in that moment of those 30 days, explicitly say, this is about Trump? Tariffs are a Trump question. Why not say that this is my plan against Trump? In case something happens, if something happens, to ensure that the campaign question that you feel like is advantageous to you still remains part of the conversation 30 days later, which can be weeks in politics, as we have talked about in the past. But
Zain
30:31
this is exactly my
Carter
30:31
my point. It can be weeks. Like, we're looking at 10, 15 weeks to an election, right? Something like that. Yeah,
Zain
30:38
Yeah, yeah. So we're sitting mid-March. Yeah, like, can we talk about the timelines a bit, just if you're okay with it? so we sit here like we can talk about the timelines mid
Zain
30:47
mid-feb he's he or or more than likely mark someone there's someone when someone will be someone wins on march
Carter
30:54
march the 8th right nine
Zain
30:56
nine nine three something like that yeah yeah
Zain
30:58
um what happens there on in so you're thinking like that that's that's that's three weeks from now by the way right
Carter
31:04
right so someone's got you got to form a cabinet yeah
Carter
31:07
yeah you got to put a new spin on government you form a cabinet you um
Carter
31:12
um you do Do something, and
Carter
31:17
two weeks in, three weeks in, sometime before the prorogament is over,
Carter
31:22
the prorogation, why do I always say prorogament?
Carter
31:24
prorogament? I don't know. Prorogation is over. I
Carter
31:27
it's a better word.
Carter
31:29
Or it's a prorogament
Zain
31:29
prorogament from Corey Hogan. That's what we'll call it.
Carter
31:32
Oh, that's really good. I'm going to just go write that down.
Zain
31:35
Would it be of or from?
Zain
31:38
We'll do both. We'll do prorogament of from Corey Hogan. That's good. He'll like that. he'll be really happy he'll be excited yeah
Carter
31:45
you you call the election before the prorogation is over and
Carter
31:50
and we have an election sometime late
Carter
31:52
late april early may mid-may yeah
Zain
31:56
that's where we land that's
Carter
31:58
that's where this unfolds and it doesn't matter if it's christian freeland mark
Carter
32:01
mark carly carney karina
Carter
32:11
this could happen it's
Zain
32:13
it's going to be Ruby
Carter
32:15
Dalla is going to come in
Carter
32:17
I still does Frank Bayless lose to Ruby Dalla that's the big question I'll
Zain
32:23
I'll talk about roll ups in a second Carter give me a bit
Zain
32:27
I'm not trying to be dense on purpose I still don't understand why you don't run against Trump versus what you're saying
Carter
32:35
there's only one tariff there's only one tariff right now
Carter
32:40
could be gone on March the 4th right March the 4th Donald Trump comes back and says I don't need to tax them I don't need to put a tariff on them because there are
Zain
32:50
are great friends good good good okay good he won't fucking say the great friends part but he's talking about 51st state over and over again why not make it something adjacent to tariffs my plan against Trump my plan against all like why not explicitly say this is my We both agree on snap election. Why not explicitly say that I want to run a ballot box question against that guy?
Carter
33:16
against a threat that
Zain
33:17
is annexation, the threat that is whatever. Yeah, let's listen.
Carter
33:21
Throw away the word tariff, and
Carter
33:23
and I'm with you.
Carter
33:25
I don't know where tariffs are going to be in 30 days.
Zain
33:28
I don't know where 30 days. You're not opposed to running against Trump.
Carter
33:31
I'm not opposed to running against Trump at all.
Zain
33:34
Are you opposed to explicitly saying that? explicitly saying that i
Carter
33:37
would explicitly say it uh how many days are federal elections 36 days or something like that i
Zain
33:42
thought it was 28 but you might be right now it's 36 i
Zain
33:45
yeah it's 28 for
Carter
33:46
for provincial uh adding
Zain
33:47
adding another eight you're right you're right yeah
Carter
33:51
36 days of standing up and saying this election's about who can deal with donald trump is
Carter
33:56
is probably and saying it explicitly is
Carter
33:58
is probably the wise way of going into this election okay
Zain
34:02
okay i'm going to leave that at there go to a slightly similar question, but that explores another angle of this, another strategic statement. So both Pierre Polyev and Mark Carney kind of gave their plans against Trump, against tariffs, and gave their rhetorical sort of plans, right? Less so concrete, here's what I'm going to do, here's what the counter tariffs look like, here's what's on, none of that. But they both kind of gave their rhetoric. They said, here's what we're going to secure, here's what we're going to do, here's what's on the table. They both talked about in different ways, you know, where we'd be open to feeling the maximum amount of pain, because this is what it takes to defend the country, we will never be a 51st state, right? Like similar on that vibe. It's not like there's divergence there.
Zain
34:41
Here's my strategic statement. If Trump and tariffs in Canada, and wrapping ourselves up in the flag, those three things, Trump, tariffs, Canada, wrapping ourselves up in the flag, if those become the
Zain
34:55
the ballot box questions, or a cocktail of the ballot box questions.
Zain
35:00
Tie goes to the liberals, which
Zain
35:02
which means that if the rhetoric is the same, the tie on that
Zain
35:07
goes to the liberals.
Zain
35:09
Do you agree with that? Do you disagree with that? Optimize it for me.
Carter
35:12
Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting, because I'm not sure that that would have been the case, obviously, a month and a half ago. I was talking with a colleague today, and we were talking
Carter
35:20
talking about how, you
Carter
35:21
you know, a year ago, everybody
Carter
35:24
everybody wanted, you know, we thought it was too late for Trudeau to to step down and here we are and it's turned out even to be a better scenario um
Carter
35:33
you know it goes straight into it and
Carter
35:36
and i do think that right now the tie is going to the liberals because first of all we've talked about how efficient their vote is um how strong it can be uh
Carter
35:46
uh when you take atlantic canada quebec and ontario and
Carter
35:49
and you just have to have a little bit of a lead in those three at at those three regions and suddenly you've got a huge seat lead because
Carter
35:57
because the vote is so efficient in those three areas whereas the conservatives are so out of whack in manitoba saskatchewan
Carter
36:04
saskatchewan and and and alberta and and frankly rural british columbia as well they're
Carter
36:10
they're out of whack you know 65 70 in some writings 80 in some writings that distorts your vote total it distorts your
Carter
36:20
capacity to win so they're they're not able to to
Carter
36:24
to win the majority government or even you
Carter
36:27
know i think that the tie has to go to the liberals in this case zane i think that it the the efficiency of their vote the maturity of their candidates and the opportunity of brand change um all are coming together at this one moment in time and you called it trump tariffs and the flag um it i think there's something more structural to it um
Carter
36:51
um it's it's brand structure and
Carter
36:54
and it's all coming together for
Carter
36:56
for them at the right time even when harper says we're
Carter
36:58
we're going to have to make this you know the the hurt for
Carter
37:01
for the country it's
Carter
37:02
it's kind of like even
Carter
37:04
even stephen harper agrees with the liberals it's not stephen harper agrees with pierre poliev it's structurally and brand wise coming together gather in this one moment and this one opportunity. I
Zain
37:15
I love that you're answering this. So by the way, I like that you're answering this about like vote efficiency. My intent with the question wasn't even about the electoral map, but I love that you went there and gave me your breakdown on that. But can I ask you the actual intent, which is if the question is about Trump tariffs wrapping yourself up in the flag, and the rhetoric is nearly identical, said different ways by two different people, Carney and Polyev, that the tie on that, if they say the same things and it's about the same issues, liberals have the edge. That liberals ultimately, if those things are the questions and their policies are nearly identical without much massive digestible divergence, that
Zain
37:57
the liberals come out ahead.
Carter
37:58
Well, let's rephrase that. Let's take two brands, we'll call them brand a and brand b and
Carter
38:04
and the the the brand that
Carter
38:06
is the most liked the
Carter
38:08
the most likable the most familiar will
Carter
38:12
and pierre polliev is not is is familiar but he's not liked so that brand so
Carter
38:19
so so in a situation where everything changes everybody goes back to their home ports now and i'm i'm talking this way as though the liberals are in first they're still not in first No,
Carter
38:30
but their their trajectory is on fucking believable. Right.
Carter
38:34
Right. What Eco saw two weeks ago. Now everybody's captured and all those numbers are running up. And I'm quite sure that we've still got some distance to go before we really see what the liberals upper numbers really look like.
Zain
38:51
this next one is a bit clunky but in it i'm just trying to like i'm
Zain
38:56
i'm trying to inert something and see if you agree with it and it's it's less of like a strategic statement that that favors one side or the other but let me go go for a walk with me on this okay so the country the country wants change that's the first part of the strategic statement pierre
Zain
39:11
pierre was the change to incumbent Trudeau.
Zain
39:14
And now Carney is the change to a guy who's acted as the incumbent for the last two years in Pierre.
Zain
39:20
And that favors Carney.
Zain
39:23
That's a clunky statement. But it's like, the country wants change. And we've actually put a guy in position that's gotten rid of the PM as the change candidate. But he's been around for so long now as almost nearly controlling the levers of change, that people now see the new guy as being changed to the guy that they've already had two years of experience with, despite the fact he hasn't fucking controlled shit for two years. He's just expected to do so.
Zain
39:51
Do you agree with that statement? And do you agree, disagree, optimize? Let
Carter
39:56
Let me clean it up for you. We've been so disappointed in the prime minister that
Carter
40:02
that we've been looking to the prime minister and waiting,
Carter
40:06
to come and save us. but
Carter
40:07
but we've had so long of waiting for the peer for for pierre pauliev to come and save us that now when shit's real when being saved is real when being canada is broken is now a real threat because someone is going to come in and fucking break us with
Carter
40:26
with that now that we're seeing that we're
Carter
40:29
we're going hey you know what that prime minister in waiting wasn't that great guy that
Carter
40:34
that Now we're going to go on— We
Zain
40:36
We had two years of him.
Zain
40:37
Yeah, he wasn't that good. Do you feel like there's a group of Canadians who felt like we've already had two years of him just because of that lead being so consistently maintained, his presence being so omnipresent? Like, he was running the media cycle. And I'm not projecting a Pierre Polyev loss here, but I am trying to test out this dynamic in some ways to say, is this something that could be going on? that because Pierre was so good at what he did, that
Zain
41:03
that he was so omniscient, he was so omnipresent everywhere, he was everywhere all the time, people feel like they've already gotten Pierre for a number of years. And now in the weirdest twisted way, they might be looking for change from the guy that they haven't necessarily even put into office yet. He's
Carter
41:21
He's the most effective. How many times have we said on this podcast? It's so funny. We had someone leave the Patreon because we were We're too hard on the Conservatives. And I'm like, we've called Pierre Polyev the best communicator in politics. I don't know how many times. He is the best communicator. He was the best communicator in Canadian politics right up until about four weeks ago.
Carter
41:45
And then he became the second best communicator in Canadian politics. Well, I'll tell you something. The chasm between number one and number two, it's always big.
Carter
41:53
Because people lift you up onto a pedestal when you're number one. and they shit on you when you're number two and pierre paliev is for the first time experiencing being shit on and
Zain
42:03
and sorry just to be clear you're thinking carney's
Zain
42:05
carney's taking over the pole position here well
Carter
42:09
mean carney is is the one i i'm saying sure
Zain
42:12
sure like yeah i agree like and and you know and i know you're you're helping the guy and and i don't know if people know this but i I know Mark, but Carter, by circumstance, right? Like in this rare sort of moment where the country might be looking for an adult in the room and someone who brings their blood pressure down due to perhaps his lack of lifting off the stage or his words or his presence, that sheer sort of like unique moment triangulation is why you're putting Carney in first. I don't know if I'd go that far. I still think I'd give it to Pierre, right? Right. And I think there's many who watched that Canada first rally over the weekend and got what they needed from him as it relates to solidifying their vote and saying, yeah, he's still all he's still all about Team Canada. So I'm not sure I go that far, but I just want to try to get a sense of why you're suggesting Carney's taking the pole position here.
Carter
43:04
Well, I just think that Carney is the one who's got the media presence, controlling the message structure, forcing
Carter
43:09
forcing Pierre Polyev to change his messaging. the
Carter
43:12
same way that Pierre Polyev was doing all of that to Justin and more to
Carter
43:16
to Justin Trudeau right
Carter
43:18
right you can tell who's in first by who's setting the agenda and right now Mark Carney is setting the agenda tell
Zain
43:24
tell me I like that no
Zain
43:26
no I don't I mean I won't disagree with you on that I think there's something to be said there I just think there's a very interesting dynamic here's the question would you be as a Carney campaign leaning
Zain
43:37
leaning in as a change candidate or Or is that too cute?
Zain
43:40
Is that too cute to call yourself change? Because it would almost have to accept the assumption that I'm putting in a strategic assumption I'm putting out on the table, which is that people are tired of the guy who never got the job, but was so good at communicating the fact that he's around and he wants the job. Would you, is it too cute for the Carding campaign to communicate that they are change at this moment?
Carter
43:59
Yeah, it's not the right message. The right message. He's not change. He's
Carter
44:03
He's not change. He's competence.
Carter
44:07
And you can argue the
Carter
44:08
the competence is the bigger change.
Carter
44:15
That's a pretty good change. And it's a change away from both the existing prime minister and
Carter
44:19
and the prime minister in waiting that we've had for the last two years.
Zain
44:23
You got some energy to do a couple more?
Carter
44:26
Oh, yeah. I mean, you started early because we didn't have to wait for Corey's kids to go to bed. This is fantastic.
Zain
44:32
This is probably five episodes worth of content. We should probably price this at what? But what is a Patreon member? We should probably price this episode at $100, even if it's public.
Carter
44:40
Yeah. Well, the patrons are stupid.
Zain
44:43
They'll pay. They'll pay. They're really dumb.
Carter
44:46
Yeah, it's like they can get half, like they're paying $6 for sometimes twice as much content.
Carter
44:53
Did they even complain
Carter
44:54
complain that we didn't record on Thursday? I
Zain
44:55
I don't know. Do I even care? Do we even care? That's the other thing. No. Yeah, I know. I don't. I for one don't.
Zain
45:02
Jagmeet Singh should make a deal with Mark Carney and or whoever wins the liberal leadership to try to extend this election as long as he can.
Zain
45:10
You have to play the Jagmeet role here, right? You're probably reading the same polls
Zain
45:13
polls that most of us will be reading soon from a national perspective, saying that he's not gaining, he's losing, and he's losing to the liberals, and time is what he probably needs. So, ergo, make a deal, try to extend this.
Zain
45:29
that's what he needs to do agree disagree optimize it for me i
Carter
45:32
i mean the problem is that there is no
Carter
45:35
no one to do a deal with the
Carter
45:37
the liberals aren't going to accept a deal from uh
Carter
45:40
uh jagmeet singh not when they're up and this and the and the ndp are down not when there's another yet another opportunity to
Carter
45:50
to steal ndp votes and and put them into the liberal into the liberal slot but you you know, lend us your votes one more time so we can defeat Pierre Poliev and the giant evil that is the Conservative Party of Canada. How many times have the Liberals played that fucking card? How successful have they been? And they get to do it one more time. They get to do it one more time. Oh, my God. This is amazing for the Liberals. There's not there's no deal to be made. Now, if you're Jagmeet Singh, instead
Carter
46:18
instead of trying to solidify and build your party from the ground up which is what he should have been doing for how long has he been leader zane how
Carter
46:26
how long has he been leader uh
Zain
46:28
the 2019 election i believe
Carter
46:31
believe yeah so so this is going to be his third election yes
Carter
46:34
yes and he hasn't built the party from the ground up he's
Carter
46:39
he's trying to find some magic way magical thinking that's going to create a party that has structure and and strength but what he he doesn't seem to realize is that every time he you know every time he tries to create that magical thinking he drives people either to the conservatives or to the liberals because he's not doing the work the work that an ed broadbent did the work that um even mulcair did um you know the these were leaders that put their back into it and built from the grassroots up and instead we're seeing jagmeet singh try and build some sort of uh magical enterprise that uh
Carter
47:19
uh is failing and no one is going to do a deal with him no
Zain
47:25
but should he try sure
Carter
47:29
mean i'm gonna i'm gonna try all kinds of shit i'm gonna why not give it a whirl i'm
Carter
47:35
i'm gonna try be acting like i'm 22 years years old why
Zain
47:40
me throw another one out there can
Zain
47:42
can we go to ontario for a second i'd
Zain
47:46
merit styles and bonnie crombie should
Zain
47:49
a deal should make a deal to
Zain
47:51
stop doug ford somehow some way why
Carter
47:54
you're bonnie crombie you're the only one going up everybody
Carter
47:57
everybody else is going down bonnie crombie is what 14 points back right now with enough time to form the official opposition she may not be the the
Carter
48:08
she has the capacity when everybody thought she was dead everybody
Carter
48:11
everybody thought she was gone she
Carter
48:13
she has the capacity to do frankly what the liberals always do they can just steal the ndp vote there
Carter
48:19
there is no reason to do a deal instead talk about stopping doug ford that's how you do your deal so bonnie crombie doesn't need to do any deal and the ndp He, my God, could they look worse across the nation? I mean, David Eby's barely
Carter
48:34
barely held on. And
Carter
48:36
And now they're just getting, Wab Kanu. Thank God Wab Kanu is there.
Carter
48:39
He's the only one who's making any difference in NDP politics across the entire nation.
Zain
48:46
Oh, I disagree with that. I think Eby is doing extremely well, especially in the last number.
Carter
48:50
number. Oh, you haven't seen his budget yet.
Zain
48:52
I've not seen his budget, but his development.
Carter
48:53
development. Speech from the Thrones is coming tomorrow, my friend.
Zain
48:57
Can we stick with Ontario for a second? Because that one was quick, and I agree with where you went with there, personally.
Zain
49:05
That was quick because it was so easy.
Zain
49:07
It was so easy
Carter
49:08
easy for me. So
Zain
49:09
So this is in line with the Trump conversation and, like, you know, the particular sort of line
Zain
49:16
line of attack of showing, not telling, that's available on Trump for the liberals against Polyev. I want to try to port that to provincial politics. politics.
Zain
49:27
And the statement is, there's more meat on the bone to attack Ford on his comments that he supported Trump, that he supported and wanted Trump to win.
Zain
49:37
If you remember, this is a piece of audio that came out that said, of course, I wanted the guy to win, or of course, I supported the guy. My statement is, there's more meat on the bone there than
Zain
49:46
than Crombie or Stiles may realize as they try to pivot to healthcare, try to make it about a more domestic election. Agree, disagree, agree optimize it yeah
Carter
49:55
yeah i mean politics is about understanding who you're up against politics is about uh being able to read the room politics
Carter
50:02
politics is about making the right decision under difficult circumstances and doug ford can't doug
Carter
50:07
doug ford saw the same information that we saw saw that donald trump was a lunatic and his behavior was to nonetheless expect donald trump to win to hope that donald trump would win even though it was going to be worse for canada donald trump was saying it was going to be worse from canada for canada donald trump is um doug
Carter
50:30
it's not that doug ford is donald trump he's
Carter
50:32
he's just not right
Zain
50:35
that lazy sort of like line of comparison is not it the liberals have a spot out there where they're using audio and clips where that kind of you know the fourth statement comes up and they're not i think they've done it craftily like they've done it like with nice craft like they've kind of said said, you know, this is who he wanted, and this is what he suggested, sort of thing. And it kind of undercuts a core notion of why we're having this election to begin with. It's
Carter
50:57
It's not that Doug Ford is Donald Trump. It's that Doug Ford didn't recognize the dangers of Donald Trump. Right.
Carter
51:04
Right? Oh, and someone should write that down. That was good.
Zain
51:07
That's not bad, Carter. I'm telling you, we can't do this when Corey's around. You
Carter
51:10
You get into the 52nd minute, and you're doing pretty good.
Zain
51:13
Corey's around. He was just caught up in so many things, just so many things. We've probably done four episodes worth. I said five a moment ago, but, you know.
Carter
51:21
I mean, you were exaggerating. You're using hyperbole.
Zain
51:24
Hyperbole, that's right. What is this episode called? The Prorogman of the
Zain
51:29
the Corey Hogan. I
Carter
51:30
I don't know if you've noticed that Corey is not so sick to not text us. Yeah,
Zain
51:34
Yeah, he's texting us during this thing. Probably wondering how it's going.
Carter
51:37
He wants the title to be H for Hogan, who is not here.
Zain
51:41
No, that's definitely not what it's
Carter
51:42
it's going to be. That's definitely not what we're going to do. We finally get to name an episode, Zane. We're not going to follow his fucking lead.
Zain
51:48
no we're definitely not um where do i want to go i
Zain
51:51
i talked to you about jagmeet singh i asked you about axe attacks ty
Zain
51:55
ty goes to the liberals we talked about carney feels
Carter
51:58
feels like we're done zane feels like we're done can i throw one i
Zain
52:01
can get into all of alberta but maybe we do that when cory's here next so let me keep it federal outside of the the two ontario questions karina
Zain
52:10
karina gold should should present
Zain
52:13
present like she's in second place in this leadership race.
Zain
52:17
She's been kind of seen as the third place, the also-ran. Of course, behind her are the true also-rans, so I don't mean to, you
Zain
52:26
you know. You know what I mean, right? She's looked as like, ah, she'll be great for the future. But it's a two-horse race, and it's increasingly a one-horse race. Karina Gould should really
Zain
52:36
really position herself as second place.
Zain
52:39
Carter, this may speak to your broader how you think of roll-up, how you think of positioning. This is one of the things I know you love talking about. So there's my statement for you about
Zain
52:48
presenting like she's in second place. Agree, disagree, optimize it for me. And
Zain
52:52
And we'll end on this note.
Carter
52:53
I seem to recall one time working on Tony Clement's campaign when
Carter
52:58
when he was running for the leader of the now Conservative Party of Canada. um and uh i remember spinning that he was in second place and then he came in third um
Carter
53:13
i don't see a problem with trying to with that type of spin i mean the distance between her and christia freeland doesn't feel like that much and i know karina was here in uh in calgary tonight um we didn't go because it's minus 400 outside i hope she got a decent crowd but uh
Carter
53:33
you know i think that there's nothing wrong with her spinning that she's in second place and it's entirely believable um even if it's not probable should
Zain
53:42
should she um the second part of this question should she be courting any of her fellow competitors in the top three to try to endorse her or anyone else in the race to try to endorse her? I'm not talking about endorsements from Camden. I'm talking about drop out and endorse me. Is that something that moves the needle for her strategically? Unless
Carter
54:03
Unless Chrystia Freeland dropped out, there is no one to ask.
Carter
54:07
I mean, Ruby Dalla dropping out and endorsing you as Craig Chandler endorsing
Carter
54:17
painful. painful frank bayless drops out and endorses you what do you get uh you
Carter
54:22
you know another 1400 donation like it's just it it doesn't it doesn't make sense karina
Carter
54:29
karina needs to run like she's in second place and who knows in three weeks time maybe she is carter
Zain
54:37
carter we've done it we've
Zain
54:39
we've we've we've we've recorded the episode of all episodes we've done it without cory hogan i feel can i
Zain
54:45
i check in can Can I check in? How do you feel about that?
Carter
54:47
feel pretty good. I don't feel great about posting this. I
Zain
54:51
like there's a 50
Zain
54:52
chance we fucked up. Oh, you don't know how to post this. Oh, that's fine. We don't do it for the people.
Carter
54:59
That's fine. They're irrelevant.
Zain
55:00
Mostly just us. That's also another good episode title. Mostly just us. Because it also, it's on multiple levels. Because the normal show is mostly just us.
Zain
55:09
think I want to go with mostly just us.
Carter
55:11
Okay. Well, good news. You know what? Let's do both. I want you to write the summary.
Zain
55:16
summary. Mostly just us. Mostly just us. The prorogament of the Corey Hogan.
Carter
55:22
No, we can't make it that long. Why can't we make it that long?
Zain
55:28
Don't think there's rules. We'll make it happen.
Zain
55:30
And with that, we'll leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 1848, H of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velge. With me, as always, Stephen Carter. Not with me, Corey Hogan. And we shall see you next time.