Episode 1848B: Zain Knows Mark

Carter 0:01

This is The Strategist, episode 1848B. Why are you afraid, Carter? I'm Stephen Carter, and this is my good friend, here as always, Corey Hogan and Zain Velji. Welcome, guys. Why are you afraid? Hey, what is up? What

Zain 0:16

What is up? This level of defensiveness, this level of I don't want to answer questions about Mark

Corey 0:25

Carter, you want to ease off the mic there, bud, in

Zain 0:28

in like every way?

Zain 0:29

I got a little excited.

Zain 0:30

Literal and... I got a little excited.

Zain 0:32

You didn't get excited, Carter. Here's what's going on, okay? We did a great 1848A. We did. Great episode called Shutter Island. Great joke. About Danielle Smith and her trials and tribulations. We now want to do 1848B because you need your good night rest last night, and we're doing in it right now to talk about the uh the liberal leadership campaign the mark carney launch stephen carter at uh what was that a a community hall or was that like a gurdwara i couldn't tell where that was it was a community

Carter 1:02

community hall it was uh i

Carter 1:06

think you smart ass it's the laurier heights community hall uh it's where he used to play hockey you see isn't

Zain 1:12

isn't laurier heights like the richest neighborhood in edmonton no no

Zain 1:15

it's what okay i think laurier heights is like telling people you lived in like no

Zain 1:21

where the fuck does drake live or drake grew up it's a it's a

Corey 1:24

a very canadian name started from the

Carter 1:26

course of course i mean it's called laurier heights laurier heights income

Zain 1:29

income i regalicious do laurier income now

Corey 1:31

now we're in a we're in a complicated situation here where this part is free this is for everybody this part part b is for everybody really

Corey 1:38

really part a was for the discord listeners patreon

Corey 1:42

listeners who also have discord here's Here's the thing.

Corey 1:46

You might want to actually tell people your involvement in the Mark Carney campaign for any

Zain 1:50

any of this to make sense. The average annual income at Laurier Heights is $210,000 a year.

Carter 1:56

That's per family. That's a household. That's great. Compared

Zain 2:03

you like launched at University of Rosedale.

Carter 2:05

Launched. We launched exactly where the guy grew up. Okay. I'll tell you something. The household income back there— Would you like to tell people

Corey 2:11

people your involvement in the campaign, Stephen?

Zain 2:18

carl what's your title involved

Carter 2:18

involved in the campaign i don't have a title like there's no title i'm

Carter 2:22

i'm just a guy i offer advice sometimes it is taken i help to organize some of the elements of this launch which i think puts me in a tremendous conflict of interest when analyzing the launch ah

Corey 2:34

ah does it though does it so

Carter 2:35

so what i thought i would do because both of you have

Zain 2:37

have different points who cares what you think what you want

Carter 2:40

want one of you has a negative impression and the other one has a positive impression now cory hogan why on earth might there be a difference of opinion between you and zane there's

Corey 2:53

few reasons like okay so just to be clear i'm the one with the positive impression and zane is the one with the negative impression not negative i just need to do

Corey 3:02

it's not negative i um i

Corey 3:05

i didn't see it yesterday and zane saw it and so we were recording part a and i had not yet so to be clear mark cardi

Zain 3:11

cardi be launched in edmonton and i don't know what this was like a garage sale

Corey 3:14

sale community hall yeah

Zain 3:15

yeah yeah uh wherever this was yeah yeah

Corey 3:18

yeah yeah that's what we call like setting the state like carter if you're gonna drive you got to do these things so can i

Carter 3:23

i get there like i just wanted to find out what can i guess are you

Zain 3:25

you just asked why was it good and why was it bad i didn't

Carter 3:29

didn't ask why it was good what i was asking is why might there be a difference of opinion well

Carter 3:34

well let me answer that yeah why don't you answer the question i fucking asked for

Carter 3:38

for once cory hogan i

Corey 3:40

i like this energy actually it's working it's a little too aggressive and 10 defensives so

Corey 3:45

so a couple of reasons one is zane saw it entirely set by the expectation that he would do as well as mark kearney did on the daily show interview which we should spend five

Zain 3:56

five seconds discussing any good hope

Corey 4:02

all agree that mark kearney did very well on the fucking killed it

Zain 4:05

it i thought he was excellent

Corey 4:07

Yeah. I also thought it was excellent. I didn't know that there was that side of him. He showed himself to be very personable. He came off as very smart, very kind, very happy. You

Zain 4:16

You know what? Can I also add to this? The reason I was so impressed, in addition to all the things you've mentioned, is that there's a guy on the other side interviewing you. And despite how much Jon Stewart might like Mark Carney, Jon Stewart's main thing is to make a joke every 45 seconds. So any train of thought you have is interrupted by a guy whose desire is to make an audience laugh, which means

Zain 4:41

you— I have no

Corey 4:41

no idea what that's like. Yeah,

Corey 4:42

no, you wouldn't know.

Zain 4:43

But you'd have to be able to hang with that and choose which joke to lean into, what to drive by to make a point. And like, it showed something that even Kamala Harris, I think her campaign didn't even want to risk, which is, can you hang?

Zain 4:58

Can you hang? And I think what was really interesting to me was that it was, we talked about the strategic sort of implications and thought process was, it showed Mark Carney could hang. Like, dude was like, he clearly was like, you know, ease enough to be like, I've got confidence, the point I'm making and my personality to be able to say, yeah, I can also make an analogy that's quasi comedic. I can also do this. And then when you make a joke, I know which one to drive past and complete a point because there's a thought process here sort of thing. I thought that was a much higher wire hack than people thought it was, because just because Jon Stewart likes you doesn't mean that's easy. In fact, I'd say that was extremely high difficulty, and he nailed it. And so that was why I was like, oh my god, this was very impressive.

Corey 5:44

Yeah, and so I totally agree. And I think the funny thing about it is he seemed a little awkward, but not nervous awkward. He seemed comfortable being there, but quirky awkward while he was there at certain times in that he was the button-down banker, super nice guy, very funny, but obviously in this environment that is just surreal and strange, and that's that Jon Stewart 45 jokes a second thing. And I really wanted to spend more time with that guy. Like, I thought he was charming. And so that's what we all thought as we were leading into this all here. And then you watched it, Zane. Yeah.

Corey 6:20

Yeah. And you are, I mean, roll the tape. Listen, spend your $6. Here's Zane running all over poor Mark Carney. Go ahead, Zane. Go

Corey 6:29

Go ahead, Zane. Was

Zain 6:30

Was it like a central banker reading a children's book? Yes. Did Stephen Carter give him the sedatives I sent along for the road trip? Yes. Was his teleprompter not working and the powers cut off by Stephen Carter? Also, yes. All right. OK. All good

Corey 6:45

good points. All true,

Carter 6:48

All true. The teleprompter not working, I think, though, you're using it as a negative. And I think that's interesting. Go ahead, Corey. Go ahead. I

Carter 6:56

I don't want to step on you. I'm

Carter 6:58

thinking I'll maybe— I do a joke every

Corey 6:59

every 45 seconds. I might get this point out by minute 45 at this rate. Here's what I'm saying. Zane came in only having his expectations set by The Daily Show, which was a home run. All three of us agree. Others might disagree, but we all agree. Yeah, yeah,

Zain 7:14

yeah, yeah. I think we're all—

Corey 7:14

all— And so relative to that, Zane was a bit disappointed. Yes. I then watched it this morning, and my expectation was set by Zane saying, what a dumpster fire. That sucked. Zane, I'm outing you here. You literally texted me. You're like, how do we tell Carter it sucked? And I'm like, I don't

Zain 7:34

Here's the thing. I know Mark Carty. I like Mark Carty. I reached out to people that know him extremely well and was like, what's going on? Why is he speaking so

Corey 7:49

So I didn't have a problem. I thought it was okay. I think you're exaggerating.

Zain 7:53

exaggerating. I think sellout fucking.

Corey 7:54

No, no, no. I legitimately enjoyed it. I legitimately appreciated it. It was the same Mark Cary, but in a different situation. Sure.

Corey 8:02

Now, that's one reason why we might have different feelings. This expectation game. I want to throw another on the table.

Corey 8:08

We might have been looking for entirely different things. Yes.

Corey 8:11

And I think that's legitimate. But my general view of it was, yeah, there was a few rough spots. Yeah, there was a lot to clean up. Yeah, there were some fundamentals of communications that he's going to get better at because he needs to get better at it. But he can get better at it. To me, it's that old metaphor about a baseball scout seeing somebody batting 300, and

Corey 8:32

and they have perfect form, and then seeing someone batting 300 and having shit form. You're

Corey 8:37

You're going to go with the guy batting 300 with shit form every time. I think when you consider all of the things Mark Carney did wrong in terms of speaking cadence, the way his French was a little bit stilted, I was shocked by the lack of a lesion in his French for somebody who I've always heard is very competent in French. when you

Corey 8:53

you look at all of those things which you know he can clean up which you know he can change which you know can be trained out of him and you look how well he did based on that i think shit this guy's ceiling is very very high he's very smart he's very funny he's quick on his feet did he have a bunch of clunky deliveries yeah for sure he did but i think he did great and i also think that the that the person slash group that did worse there was the audience like part of the The awkwardness you're talking about, Zane, I think was the audience. Yeah, the sedatives that they

Corey 9:27

Well, they were not in rhythm with him at all.

Corey 9:28

all. That's true. I

Zain 9:29

agree with that completely. Like the applause lines didn't get applause. And the question is, whose fault was that?

Carter 9:35

That's the next question, and we're going to get to that. First off, I want you to respond to what Corey said, Zane.

Carter 9:41

Were you expecting something different?

Zain 9:44

I was looking for him to, yes, I was. I was looking for him to be looser.

Zain 9:48

And I think what I got was extremely scripted. obviously extremely scripted because there was scripts like both on paper and teleprompter and of course obviously it would be scripted because it's like arguably the the most important up until that up until the next one uh maybe a speech that he's given his first speech in politics but you know unlike cory the other thing i was maybe expecting is that is mark carney as i saw in the daily show ready out you know ready product today his ceiling could be high he doesn't have fuck

Zain 10:17

fuck i was gonna say an arbitrary six months he doesn't have six months he has to be ready today And so I think what it to me highlighted was the political challenge of Mark Carney, especially given Freeland, which is the fact that he is coming in as an outsider that wants to take over caucus and be prime minister without a seat. And that highlighted to me in some ways that the Freeland team may fundamentally have a point, which is that this guy's not ready today. This guy's just not ready today. He's not ready just like that. it's not like there has been a political rock star sitting on the sidelines. What there has been sitting on the sidelines is an extremely impressive, very great one-to-one, you know, very highly credentialed man who's ready to take the mantle. But that does not mean that there has been a political rock star sitting on the sidelines, so to speak. And I think maybe The Daily Show was such a great performance. It's not like he should have held back. Strategically, I think he needed to nail that, and he did. It's not like you would have asked him, be like, we know you're are great on fireside chats, just like dial this down to an eight because your launch is the one that needs to be a 10. Anyone saying that bullshit today, which by the way, there are some people don't understand. If you're going to hit that, hit it out of the park, and he did. But I think today it may have shown to me that there is argument in the fact that this guy may not be necessarily ready to take this on day one, especially with the performance he gave. So I was looking for someone looser. I was looking for someone more, not even animated, but someone who who could tell an anecdote, carry that hockey analogy, like, through, but tell a story that actually means something to me. And I think, to me, it also highlighted one other piece. And I know Mark, so it highlighted this other piece, which is extremely obvious, is that this guy really has faced minimal resistance in his life. Like, he's been great. I played hockey here across the street, and I was great at hockey. And I got a hockey scholarship, and I killed that. And then I went here, and then things were great. And I made a shit ton of money. And then I served my my country and now i sit on like even in the q a where he's like yes i've resigned from the board of stripe and all these other four probably like fuck you you fuck like and i know you and i like you a lot but fuck you that's an insane amount of things and i get that's a massive sacrifice mark carney's making for us but also fuck you right like that's an insane amount of things that you're uh and so i and almost highlighted to me that there's like there was no sort of like

Zain 12:32

i get you moment there was no sort of and i know this is like a potpourri of things things. But I also felt like, and I said this to you yesterday, that the Mark Carney approach for that speech should have been one solid story, two bold things. And I heard one loose anecdote carried through and a bunch of facts in a very dour manner. And that's how it resonated with me, especially

Carter 12:56

given... Let's come back to that, because I want to go into the content of the speech a little bit later. But Corey, you had another point that you wanted to add.

Corey 13:02

Well, first, I just want to respond to what what Zane said, because I agree when I don't, right? He Yeah, there's no political chip that you just put in Mark Carney's brain that's going to replace having all of the years of experience in politics and the, the comfort it creates with all sorts of settings that you don't you don't get in real life. Like it's it's a weird world politics. And it takes a certain amount of experience in that weird world for you to be able to do things at the highest level. But I don't know, I don't think he needs six months. I think he might might be really good in six weeks and i agree with zane entirely that he should be looser but this is what the reason why i the reason why i think he did so well is there were those moments right and they were stitched together by awkward components in between but when he went off script you know his little quips on the side they they were fucking charming and they were good and you know and when he was off script clearly when he was being looser he was very good his answer when when City News called on him and he's like, oh, wait a minute, were you the City News reporter that did the Streeter? I had the sound off, but I wanted to know, like you were going around showing people my picture, what was that about? And he's like, well, I was asking their names. He's like, and nobody knew my name, huh? And he's like, nope, not one person. Closest I got was Mike and everybody sort of laughs. And he laughed, like the comfort. He says, oh, I can roll with that or something to that effect. Like, that's okay.

Corey 14:22

That's a great Mark Carney. And I got to to say something, Zane.

Corey 14:26

That level of comfort and ease and the ability to jump into quit mode like that, most people can't do that after five years in public. No, which is why the Daily Show thing was such a revelation to me.

Zain 14:38

So when I go back, I'm like, who was the team that gave this guy a script rather than just let him just like, because I think the speech is... You can't do a speech. But Carter, the speech was also, it

Carter 14:52

Well, let's start there. Corey Hogan, let me ask you a question how did the speech come across to you the

Carter 14:57

the the written words the forget about the delivery for a moment yeah

Carter 15:01

the speech itself the document that is created by the campaign team the campaign team sitting back in some hotel somewhere smoking cigarettes pounding on the keyboards handing the versions back and forth how was that speech to you i

Corey 15:17

thought it was pretty good it was well constructed i i think um it was funny to me at certain points like he He had slogans about how bad slogans are. He had soundbites about how bad soundbites are. That's just meta funny to me. But when you look at the overall construction, he starts with, hey, I'm here for these reasons. I learned these values right next door going around this city. I'm so glad that I've got this community that's supporting me. I am deeply connected here, there, everywhere. I have provided advice that I'm here to help. I want to use my skills to better Canada. I think we've got to focus on the economy. We got to look up every day and say, are we doing enough in that space? And I generally thought it hit the beats that you would expect a speech from Mark Carney to hit, including the need to defend Canada. He had a bit of contrast with Pierre Poliev. I didn't have major concerns with it. I do agree with Zane that there wasn't like the big stopping power, big idea. But I also don't know if you're Mark Carney, if you need that in your first speech. speech

Corey 16:16

speech for sure if you're if you're Katrina Gold there you need that in your first you got to have the reason that somebody's listening to you but I don't know if the front runner needs it in his first speech that is that would be my observation so

Carter 16:29

so Zane tell us in just a little bit of time here uh how is Corey wrong and why is he wrong and uh maybe throw in one thing that you actually liked about the written speech itself why

Zain 16:42

why do you know who wrote it no

Carter 16:44

no I don't actually know who wrote it was i have absolutely no idea was

Zain 16:47

was it was a chat gpc i

Carter 16:50

believe it was no it was uh notebook lm yeah uh

Zain 16:55

uh what did i like um

Zain 17:00

i listen it looked professional i liked the tightness of the space i thought that was was a smart move um in the sense because it felt like at least on the wide shots it felt like it was it was a packed room uh as much as i make fun of it i did like I like the diversity of support.

Zain 17:15

I like that the line he came into was exclusively white dudes above 75. And then that the human wall that he had was

Corey 17:24

was exclusive. And I'm just joking

Zain 17:26

joking with you here. But the diversity aspect was important. I think it signals something. And I did love the choice of location. I think that was a solid move. Now, I think you guys are a bit stuck. Yeah, but this is

Carter 17:36

is fascinating. You're into the form instead of the actual content of the speech. There was nothing within the contents of the speech that you thought, fuck, that was a moment. I'm getting to it. I'm

Zain 17:47

I'm getting to it. I think the analogy start was strong with I grew up here. I like the hockey through line, because I think that's the most relatable thing about Mark Carney, is his fandom for hockey. And I think it's genuine, right? When you see him put on a McDavid jersey, I actually believe that. I've always believed that. And when you realize, and this is one thing I'm surprised we didn't get to know, is that Mark Carney was an excellent goalie, right? Like, I know that about him. Like, why you guys didn't extend that metaphor? Why one wouldn't extend that metaphor to, like, I'm cool with taking shots, I'm good with whatever, like, take all the shots you want. Like, I'm Teflon, like, I'll stand in the way, I'll defend you. There's something there that I would have. But I like the I think this hockey through line, this analogy of sport, the metaphor of being across the hall or across the street, I couldn't tell exactly which or don't remember exactly which was was really good.

Zain 18:41

And then I do like how he he he talked about Trump. I do like how he tried to reframe the ballot box question. I wish he would have brought in the carbon tax conversation into the speech rather than leave that to the Q&A. I think you could have got a much stronger headline in that regard. You could have talked about his climate positioning. But ultimately, one thing I will refute in terms of what Corey said in terms of a big idea is something you and I, Carter, have talked about all the time, which is launches may not necessarily matter, but the public was looking at Mark Carney in a novel way because it's the first time he gave this sort of speech. And I would have liked for him to do something against type. And everything I saw there was on type, the way he delivered, the way he looked, the way he presented. And I would have expected that if all of those things were going to be the Mark Carney I expected, then maybe Mark Carney was going to say something that I wouldn't expect Mark Carney to say. And I didn't get that either. And that's what I was hoping for. And I wasn't expecting some big policy announcement that was like left-wing populist being like, whoa, but

Zain 19:42

but I was expecting something. something

Carter 19:44

so zane brings up the point that in the questions and answers is where they where the uh the policy position started to get mapped out instead of in the speech cory what did what did you think of the question and answer period itself um both in it in french and english better as it was as it was being developed yeah

Corey 20:01

yeah just one last word on the content i think he got his soundbites in right he got the content and he needed to get in he said i helped save two economies i know how business works. These were the things that he needed to say. I'll be laser focused on the economy. I get that.

Corey 20:15

In terms of the Q&A and some of the detail coming out that way.

Corey 20:20

I'm fine with that. Like there, there is a story that you tell at that moment. And then there are the details that come in after and as long as you have foreknowledge that you by answering the questions in this moment is going to create this, this type of opportunity or remove this type of opportunity.

Corey 20:36

That's fine. And it seems very clear to me that Mark Carney was willing to do the carbon carbon tax stuff, but didn't want that to be the story. And so he made the conscious decision to background rather than foreground, knowing that that was inevitably going to be there. And that makes perfect sense to me. We talk about this all the time. When you're on a shield issue like this, you communicate

Corey 20:55

communicate only to the level you need to and you move on. You don't give it a bigger spotlight. You don't do the things that would otherwise draw attention to it. And he very actively did not draw attention to it. So that was fine to me. I also think that the Q&A coming forward with such obvious questions because it wasn't in the content allowed him to have some sort of sense. Let's put it this way. If he answered all the obvious questions, you're going to get the non-obvious questions in

Corey 21:20

in the Q&A. So there is a benefit to having a few things held back that you know, like any competent reporters can say, well, I wanted to ask this, but I got to ask this because somebody else is going to do it. And in fact, I thought that his weakest answer answer on the Q&A was his last, where he seemed to get a little bit snippy about conflicts of interest and how he was going to be managing them. I think a better answer would have been like, you know, I've taken these steps. I'm open to other steps. Because obviously, I know as Prime Minister, I will have all of these things put on me here, instead of saying like, well, I answered that question, which was basically how he got to end his Q&A. And that was a little bit weak.

Carter 21:57

Yeah. What do you think, Zane? How was the Q&A for you? Was it different? Or did the Q&A just simply, was it a continuation of a speech?

Zain 22:04

speech? No, no, no, it was different. It was different. I

Zain 22:06

I think the lesson here is that Mark Carney has some skills when he's able to be loose and free. And in fact, if I'm planning future events, I'm thinking of things like fireside chats versus outright speeches. Not to say he doesn't need to get better at that, because that is a core construct of what it takes to be prime minister. But there are other elements that could support Mark Carney kind of developing that persona, that personality, so to speak. Listen, I think your launch was fine overall. And maybe my expectations.

Carter 22:40

Oh, holy shit, my ego. My ego just exploded fine. Listen,

Carter 22:46

it's more about who

Zain 22:47

who you kept out of the room rather than who you kept in the room. Can we talk about that?

Carter 22:51

No, we really should not talk about the Western Standard, the counter signal, and True North. I

Zain 22:56

I heard Mark Carney came in a Rolls Royce. No, I believe, I'm actually finding out who rented that Rolls-Royce.

Zain 23:04

people who don't know the context, can you explain this? Yeah,

Carter 23:06

Yeah, so what happened was, we're in the hall, and all of a sudden, this Rolls-Royce limousine pulls up.

Zain 23:15

neighborhood that's probably used to it, I imagine.

Carter 23:18

Now, we'd seen it, we'd seen it because it got stuck trying to get into the parking lot, because it's such a nightmare to drive, I would imagine. But it comes in and Keaton Bext, however you say his name, said, happened to put it up on to his counter signal Twitter feed that the Rolls Royce had arrived. So I'm not sure who hired the Rolls Royce, but I know who covered the Rolls Royce. It had nothing to do with our campaign and it just happened to show up. I certainly didn't want to mention that his actual car that he showed up in was my car. uh the the tesla model y uh i think that that probably would have generated just as much negative uh feedback but that's part of the form right like so i want to just jump into the form of this because how this gets covered is also you know zane you talked a little bit about the layout about the human backdrop i personally can't stand the human backdrop i was really interested

Zain 24:17

you were then organizing it on TV. We could see you telling these people where to stand. And I was like, doesn't he fucking hate this? I

Carter 24:27

I hate it. It is one thing that I find absolutely off-putting about politics today is the human wall. What are your guys' thoughts about, A, the human wall in general, and how the human wall played in this particular situation?

Zain 24:40

situation? Well, let me address a particular situation why I didn't love it. One simple reason. reason. You had a beautiful Canada flag right behind it. And

Zain 24:47

And I think there had been no more acute political moment in which Mark Carney and a Canada flag would have spoken volumes than this one, especially with where we're at right now. Now, it did look a bit pink in terms of the flag color. And so it was maybe a bit communist in terms of where it was leaning into. But being serious, I thought

Zain 25:09

thought this was like, when I first saw, because I was watching this live as it was coming i think you guys had a one o'clock announcement and like the cameras went to you guys live around like 12 i'm talking mountain time right like 12 50 or so and at that period of time you could see the podium mark carney.ca right on on the lectern you could see the logo and the canada i'm like this is smart i really like what they're doing here right they're wrapping themselves like quite literally mark carney will be standing behind the canada flag he will look like a singular leader this will be about canada this will be about defending canada he's a former a bank like he just he's a globe oh this makes total sense i've seen the world but now i like oh i love this and then i literally saw you arranging people from my family or what looked like my family my aunts uncles and cousins and putting them into a human wall and i'm like yeah these people are as canadian that's not the issue but i'm like fuck that image i had in my mind of what i thought was going to happen in 10 minutes which is why i was so harsh with you on text being like what the fuck is happening because i had a very specific captain canada image that was implanted in my head watching this. Corey, you don't have the benefit of this, right? Like, I don't even know if you noticed the Canada flag behind. Oh,

Zain 26:16

You did, okay. You could see it, right? But like this is where I was going. I'm like, fuck, Carter, that's a smart move. And then I was like, fuck no, Carter, don't do this. That was kind of like where my head was at. Just, you

Carter 26:27

you know, without getting into too much inside baseball, just know that I still hate the human wall and did not advocate for it. Mr. Hogan, what was your response to the human wall? What did you think?

Corey 26:36

I think the human Wall is pretty played out at this point. I understand why people went to it. It creates a dynamic background. It allows you to showcase the diversity of your campaign, whether it be old, young, white, brown, whatever it may be. I get that. But I also think we've seen it so long that it's almost like it's like it's the same as having nothing behind you at this point, if I'm going to be frank. And so I do agree with Zane that the Canadian flag would have been a stronger visual. But I also think it would have been more consistent with what I at least believe is is Mark Carney's best plan, not just for the liberal leadership, but then going into a general election? And, and I ultimately, you guys both know me, I'm a person who says brand answers all questions, all questions, the setup of a room, how you present yourself on literature, the words you use. And if you're not clear on your brand, then you're going to make mistakes like the human wall, because it's just like, well, I guess, I don't know, isn't that what we do? Right? And you say, no our brand is canada our brand is always canada we don't put things in front of the canadian flag we don't block out the maple leaf we're fucking team canada and i i think that that that was the real style miss in terms of the flag when when it comes to the human wall yeah

Carter 27:46

yeah i think that that

Carter 27:51

sorry i had a little sneeze there i had to mute myself i was taking notes from two two

Corey 27:54

superior strategies yeah please feel free to feel

Corey 27:56

to like give like a clean out for me to to be able to you know edit that or something no

Carter 28:00

no i don't want to edit it i want that in there um the canadian flag are you using this

Zain 28:04

this podcast to send a message to your campaign colleagues no okay the

Carter 28:08

the canadian flag was a late addition they had to go out and find that canadian flag so you guys uh it was it was something that was thought of by the ottawa team

Zain 28:17

so then to cover up with people like

Carter 28:19

like i know it was it was an interesting choice but in part the question question that i also have is what do we think of the time of the day for that particular for the announcement um obviously

Carter 28:32

obviously we were in a very small hall uh that was really uh really quite evident and we were thinking when we chose the small hall that you needed to have a smaller audience

Zain 28:41

audience can i ask you a question could you have gotten a bigger hall and filled it oh

Carter 28:47

but we could have filled it at four o'clock in the afternoon i'm

Carter 28:49

i'm not sure that we could have filled at 1 p

Carter 28:51

1 p.m on a on a thursday afternoon what

Carter 28:55

what did you think of the time of day like these are the types of decisions like one thing was how do we fit it within the television schedule yeah

Carter 29:04

what what from your points of view what would be the criteria for choosing one o'clock what would be the criteria for choosing evening what would be the care for late afternoon my cory let's go with cory first i

Corey 29:15

i i would i liked it i'll tell you why i liked it

Corey 29:19

maybe i don't let me talk about the benefit of going at one o'clock in the afternoon three o'clock eastern which becomes four o'clock by the end of the speech it's actually enough time to get a round of commentary in right too so it's not just the event it's also the reaction to the event and so if that is if that's advantageous to you it makes sense to go at that time it absolutely makes sense to go at that time if it is not advantageous to you it does not make makes sense and i think maybe the campaign was hoping for more positive commentary i don't know that it's been like downright negative but it's certainly been mixed in terms of how it was not everybody agrees with say not everybody agrees with me and i think you're kind of in the middle there but um it might have actually benefited from people being first uh presented to it in the context of of clips like the best most clippable parts which i think he did a pretty pretty good job on, rather than that coming concurrently with the commentary around his French and hey, you know, it's a little rusty and around like all of the various nitpicks that people have had about it. But if

Corey 30:22

if you think you're going to knock it out of the park, having that time to have people gush about it does make sense. Let me ask you a question, Carter, and I'll

Zain 30:28

I'll answer your 1pm, 4pm question too. Do you feel like expectations were too high?

Carter 30:35

Well, it was an interesting challenge. And this was going to be one of the questions that I was going to ask you guys should the uh should the daily show have been the launch was

Carter 30:45

was it so hard to do like the next day he just simply sends out a text almost like christia freeland did today where she sent out the text saying i'm in like or the the the the instagram post the the press release whatever the the mediums were but she said very clearly i'm in and she'll be announcing for reels on on on on Sunday, should Mark have said, you

Carter 31:08

you know, flown back to Canada and put out a statement that was one line long, one, you know, two words, I'm in, should that have been something that was considered by the by the campaign?

Zain 31:20

Considered? Yeah, like, I would have considered it. I mean, especially if you saw that reaction and the view count and everything going well, I would have taken that and maybe adopted to the Corey or version of the Corey strategy, strategy, which is also the me strategy, which is also the Bernie strategy, which is find a mic somewhere and officially declare it on home soil, and then get going with the first event, fireside chat somewhere, fundraiser elsewhere, maybe a PNP hit with David Cochran and Vashie Capellos on Powerplay the same day sort of thing, declaring that you're in and just get going, right? Try to find different mediums. Like, it's not like Canada was refusing to run the Jon Stewart clip. And it's not like Canadians weren't going to see the Jon Stewart clip. And John Stewart clip. So in some ways, you already had that launch, so to speak. I do get the desire to choose Edmonton. And I don't know if it was a sword or a shield move, Edmonton, whether it was to allow Freeland to not do the same thing, because she's also got Western roots, or if it was like, we're going to do this on her own, or if Mark's got plans to run there, which, by the way, I think would be crazy from a seat perspective. But maybe Edmonton was too attractive, too romanticized a story. And you guys were trying to figure out what to do with it, when to go with it. But I think there would have been time for that. And in fact, I would have actually argued to show the hockey boards or do it in the actual, and logistically, I'm just making shit up, what do I know, what was possible. But I almost lost sight of the analogy and its connection five seconds into the speech. And many people who see the clips might just see, okay, a mid-sized room that Mark Carney launched in somewhere in Edmonton and not necessarily get the through line, unless it was more visually represented that way so just a few thoughts cory

Corey 33:01

yeah i think i think that's that's fair what zane said is fair um but when i think about how you launch let's be fucking real like the launch was the daily show that was not i mean that was so thin it was clearly the launch this was just the formal yeah let's let's actually move forward at this point and insofar as when you think about the sequencing of these things obviously my preference had been as i've said on on the pod, that Thursday night, Friday morning, you

Corey 33:29

you just go to the first microphone and you do the Hogan-Velgey-Sanders, as I'm now going to call it. Yeah, alliance, yeah, yeah,

Corey 33:36

yeah. The Hogan-Velgey-Sanders alliance, and you say,

Corey 33:40

say, I'm in. And I actually think, just to jump to Freeland, and maybe we'll talk about it, or maybe we won't have time, but if Chrystia Freeland had done that Instagram post of just basically one sentence saying she's in, last thursday night i would have said fucking brilliant awesome really

Corey 33:56

waiting a week to do that i think doesn't really work so i actually don't know that i'm in works one weekend it's like what took you so fucking long to do so little

Corey 34:05

and let's not forget a previous episode

Zain 34:06

episode we've done which is like does no one fucking care about selling not selling memberships but getting people registered i 100% agree what's

Zain 34:12

what's going on here okay at 12 50 you had mark carney.ca open up I go to markcarney.ca because I'm watching right and I'm a small and I know that until one o'clock you guys don't flip it through but you take my information but there's no push on registration there is now where is the splash page

Corey 34:27

that's pushing you directly

Corey 34:29

to register what's going

Zain 34:30

like and I'm not just talking about you guys I'm talking about everyone like Freeland's waiting to like shouldn't Freeland be like oh by the way sign up at christianfreeland.ca like get your register like does no one care like is there not a it might just be but like but Carney had Cardi had a rare quasi-viral Daily Show moment with no follow-up on capturing Air War membership, and no funnel built, even like fucking build it in five minutes.

Corey 34:59

Find a way to say five minutes. My God, to answer one thing shoehorned in, like, hey, it's a big open party. Any Canadian who wants to register, it's free. You just go to liberal.ca. You like what you saw here. I would have taken

Zain 35:10

taken those Daily Show clips. Sorry, Cardi. I'm like, you've asked us to do this. You've welcomed this torture into your life, right? But even the clips that you've clipped from The Daily Show, there's no bumper at the end being like, you like what you saw, sign up at mark Carney.ca, get a member registration. No one has gotten up on stage or told me what the deadline is. There's no sales

Zain 35:31

funnel. Fuck, there's no sales funnel. And it's not just Mark. No, none of these candidates have told me, and I don't even know what it is, because I should. It should be implanted in my memory the amount of time I spent on this leadership race listening to it the last week. But I don't know if it's the 23rd or 27th, but I should. So I'm like, is no one interested in this? Like, what's going on?

Carter 35:48

It is a really big question because there is this, everybody, I think, is probably using the building the plane as you're flying. But the plane's

Carter 35:56

plane's got one objective.

Zain 35:57

Get people that you know registered and use Air

Carter 36:00

Air War as much as you use Ground War. What am I missing? But it's, you know, so you're also missing how do we, where's the staff coming from? Who's building the websites? sites who you know there was an announcement now 11 days ago that the prime minister was stepping down within

Carter 36:17

within that 11 days mark carney's assembled a team he's

Carter 36:21

he's gone on the daily show he's done an actual announcement and he's also conducted his first tour all

Carter 36:27

of those things have happened within 11 days now will

Carter 36:30

will you know should it have gone in a different order or different priority maybe i don't know but how does one choose the order cory of putting up a uh a website putting up the like do you do that before you announce you generally don't so a little bit of i took i get you know like i think that in a perfect world the announcement would have been the launch would have been earlier but

Carter 36:55

if you make the launch earlier you're stepping on your daily show show appearance i

Carter 37:00

yeah how did you balance that off cory well

Corey 37:03

well i don't so i think you don't you you you

Corey 37:07

you you have to choose right you either go right away or you do the daily show i it turned out the daily show was the right move i think for mark carney because it introduced him to us in a way that was interesting especially if you're not available and ready to capture all of the interests that might exist and maybe you won't even have the interest to capture if you don't do the Daily Show first. So I'm not, you know, campaigns always have to make decisions that are beyond what we're able to see.

Corey 37:30

I'm not going to second guess that with the benefit of having seen the Daily Show thing. It'd be hard to say, yeah, I can construct a parallel universe that is reasonably better for you. So I guess I can't as much as I would have liked to have seen people go right away. But I think

Corey 37:42

think we could construct

Zain 37:42

construct a parallel universe in what that campaign did between the Daily Show and the launch and what you would have done to take advantage of that moment. Well,

Corey 37:51

Well, I think that's 100% true. But I also think that

Corey 37:54

that in such a short race, it is really about these, I mean, ultimately, this is about having votes at the end of the day. It's about points, if we're going to get really specific about it. And the work back from that does require that you register members. Now, the theory of the campaign might be, I can win the existing membership. And that's fine. That's a strategic choice. And if that's the strategic choice that's going on here, I mean, I can't really fault it based on what's going on at this moment. So

Carter 38:18

So give me a letter grade, Corey. Give

Carter 38:20

me a letter grade on Mark Carney's first week of

Carter 38:23

of the 10 days that occurred from Justin Trudeau's announcement that he was stepping down as prime minister to Mark Carney's launch. Those 10 days, what is the letter grade you're giving overall?

Zain 38:38

I take it a little bit different? Yeah, don't answer the question straight. You never do it with me, so don't give him the fucking pleasure. Yeah, that's

Zain 38:43

fair point. Yeah, okay. Take it a little differently and then don't answer the question. I

Corey 38:46

I want to answer it a little bit differently here.

Corey 38:49

Go ahead. One of the things that, we've said this on the pod so many times, I don't even think this is like an inconsistent thing.

Corey 38:58

I, in some ways, am disinterested in the specifics. I think that they are overblown, overwrought. The launch is not going to have that much of a shelf life. This campaign is going to be a big thing that happens in a short period of time. and we're going to have five more core memories that replace these two core memories before this thing is done. That's just the reality of it here. So in the first week, I'm looking for something a little bit different, right? And I think that in some ways, the fundamental difference between how I perceived the launch in particular, and how Zane did, is potential

Corey 39:30

potential versus performance. I'm viewing it from a potential lens. And I'm saying, okay,

Corey 39:34

okay, based on the limited insight that we get right now in the early days, where it's always a little rocky, where it's always a little choppy, what's his potential what do i see in the guy about what i think he can be at the end of it like at the end of the line we're at the starting line and i saw things that i thought are worth an a like his potential is an a if this is his starting line he is in fantastic fucking shape and part of it also is something that we didn't talk about on the pod but you and i talked about zane you and i as well all three of us after i i said to you i said why the hell is he reading like notes like during it right and carter you said well his teleprompter broke and what's the what did i ask you steven to

Corey 40:14

to how did he react how

Corey 40:16

how did he react and i know it sounds small but the fact that you said he didn't lose his shit he just continued on he rolled with the punch i mean your ability to dive in and not have people see you sweat is one of the most essential skills and the unflappability that has been a common thread between the daily show and this launch punch, combined with his easy intellect, his easy affability. I mean, this guy, it's an A. It's an A from a potential point of view, and from a performance, it's like a solid B at worst.

Corey 40:46

It's been a great week for Mark Carney. Absolutely. No question in my mind.

Carter 40:50

What do you think, Zane? How does it add up to an A for you?

Zain 40:55

It doesn't add up to an A, because he doesn't have time to prove potential. That's just my very simple point here. Potential is great, Corey, but this guy doesn't have time. He He launched the general election campaign yesterday with a C speech. And that's okay, because it's Mark Carney, and he went a great amount of curve in his first ever political speech. But it's also the most important, like, he's going for something unprecedented here. I'm saying that without hyperbole. He wants to be prime minister of this country, having never run for elected office before, not being a sitting MP. So he's going for something unprecedented, as much as I'd want to give him potential points, and Corey could sell me on it. He very well may have. Um,

Zain 41:34

and I've seen the potential, all three of us in various ways, in various time horizons have seen the potential for Mark Carney. Is that true? Some of us, Carter, a decade ago, like you've been, I don't want to out you, but you've been on a version of this project for a decade on and off.

Zain 41:49

I've probably seen this potential a couple of years ago when Mark and I got to know each other during, during the pandemic. And I'm like, okay, this could, this could be something. Um, you know, Corey, I suspect your journey somewhere in between or, or, or developing right now. I've never met

Corey 42:01

met the fucking guy.

Zain 42:03

interesting. I've just only seen

Corey 42:03

seen him from a distance. Right, but you just gave him an A right now, right?

Zain 42:06

right? So you're late to the party, but you're in it. You see something

Zain 42:10

there. All three of us see something in Mark Carney. The problem is Justin Trudeau has fucking screwed him over with this time line right now, right? And so, Carter, you might say, and Corey, you may even make the argument that actually he's a quick learner. He could be extremely quick. Potential can turn into performance extremely quickly. But the fact is he doesn't have that time. he launched the general election campaign yesterday.

Zain 42:36

This was his intro. And listen, there will be an actual intro to the general, but he launched it yesterday. We're in it. He's got to be a 10 on 10 political rock star performer out of the gate, considering the holds the liberals have, considering the message that Freeland is going to give. And I just didn't see that yesterday. One

Carter 42:52

One more question for you, Zane, before we wrap this up. And actually, I have two more questions. questions. But the first question for you, Zane, is how did Mark Carney's week compare to Chrystia Freeland's week compared to Pierre Polyev's week and compared to Justin Trudeau's week? Listen,

Zain 43:09

Listen, I think Pierre Polyev may have had the worst week out of those four people. Chrystia Freeland seems to have a message of momentum. I want to talk about Freeland for a second. It's fascinating to see what her sort of give

Zain 43:21

give me a call to everyone and her team give me a call to everyone messages, right? They've got a couple of points, one of which is that that she's the only one with the courage to have stabbed Justin Trudeau and told him to leave. She's the only one that she saved Canadians billions of dollars of potential payments with those worker benefits sort of thing. She knew it was bad policy, she got rid of them, right? I'm the one, this would be her saying this, I'm the one who was able to do that, in addition to the fact she's got the respective caucus, etc. So she's had a decent week in some ways, because she's building up to a message. You can see what she's going to get to. This is obviously like inside baseball, but you can actually see her saying, I'm the reason Justin Trudeau is no longer there. I'm the change candidate. If you want more of the same, that's Mark Carney. It's the same team behind Mark Carney. I'm the change. You can see a lane for her. Now, whether she's able to sell that or not, who

Zain 44:10

who knows? But I actually am now starting to see the track she's creating for herself. She's not had a terrible week, right? Justin Trudeau was not supposed to be in a press conference this week with the other premiers because they thought there was no federal leadership. Instead, Daniel Smith finds herself on the outs. Justin Trudeau is able to take the moral high ground, hit Daniel Smith on the head for two, three days in a row. Looked like he has a pretty decent week.

Zain 44:34

Mark Carney's had the best week out of everyone. He's at the top of that list. I think I don't need to expand beyond Corey's explanation. And then Pierre Polyev, his inability to pivot this week, his inability to give clear, simple answers to what seem to be clear, simple questions. Did that open up more questions about what Pierre Polyev's relationship is with Canada and the Canadian flag, Pierre Polyev's not had a great week. And in addition to that, he's potentially not going to have a great couple of weeks, and him and Jenny Byrne can't pivot as the Liberals ax the tax on themselves and understand what the future of this election looks like with a ballot box question that he may not get to control. He's been historically amazing at controlling and being consistent. The fact is, the question may not be in his favor, as we talked about actually just yesterday. You guys have told me, And I agree with you that the question on the U.S., Trump, tariffs, et cetera, not amazing questions for Pierre Palliev if that's what a general election ends up being.

Carter 45:27

So, Corey, what's your answer to the question? Who's had the better week, Freeland, Carney, Trudeau,

Corey 45:34

Clearly, Carney. And I generally agree with everything that Zane said, except I don't think that the prime minister had that good of a week.

Zain 45:42

I'd say it's better than Pierre's week. Well,

Corey 45:44

Well, we talked about it on our last, on part A. So, hey, you know, you want to hear part A? Go spend $6, become a patron, join the patron. Yeah, you have

Zain 45:53

asking questions who actually humbly puts himself, you know, puts a strategist hat away and he asks questions. That's what you had.

Corey 46:00

Strategistpatreon.com. There you go. Is

Zain 46:02

Is that what it is? Yeah, okay, Carter, that's glad you're not selling it. it.

Carter 46:07

Okay. So here's, that's great. So Freeland, Corey, Zane kind of gave me a little bit of an insight as to what he thinks Freeland is going to be doing in the next couple of days. What are your thoughts about the Freeland campaign and where it needs to go to recover from not having the first 10 days that Mark Carney had?

Corey 46:26

I mean, we talked about a couple of episodes ago that the winning campaign or the one doing the smart things might not be the one that looks like it's doing the smart thing so i want to remember that and i want to remind myself of that but

Corey 46:36

but certainly in terms of air war in terms of maintaining the conversation maintaining eyes and focus on you you can't give her very good marks on this particular week and like i said her launch strategy made sense a week ago it doesn't make sense a week later at that point you've kind of got to do something else but i was talking you know to my cousin my cousin cole hogan and we were going back and forth i mentioned this without mentioning who it was yesterday saying saying, like,

Corey 47:00

like, how do you launch if you're her at this point, right? Like, the Daily Show thing is really shut up. Like, you're not going to find a better entertainment, like, big broadcast way to do it? Are you going to do a big event with 5,000 people? That feels like a real waste of resources with such little time. And it's too late for the I'm just in press conference. But she decided, I think, that's the least resource intensive of them, so I'm just going to get moving on this. And I guess if we're going to say the

Corey 47:28

the past is the past You've just got to make as good of a decision in the moment as you can. She made as good of a decision in the moment as she could by just jumping into the race at this point. But I don't know what they were doing the last week in terms of getting into it all. And I think they could have actually been a fair bit ahead of Carney on the logistics if they had said, I'm in Thursday night as soon as the rules were announced. But

Zain 47:47

But there is something to be said that they could be, like, there's, she doesn't have to be a registered candidate in order for her to register people up. So there could, she could have just been doing what you, and I know you just mentioned this, but you mentioned last episode that David Swan, she could have just been calling the lists that she had, she could have been, and it seems like she is, like, the fact that, you know, not to out anyone that, like, I've been getting multiple calls from the Freeland, I'm not registered liberal by any means, is interesting. But you're a successful podcast strategist. Yeah,

Corey 48:15

to ride on our coattails, so

Carter 48:16

so of course they're

Carter 48:16

they're going to call you. Yeah, it's nice every once in a while for you.

Carter 48:20

And that's a wrap on episode 1848B. As always, I'm Stephen Carter hosting the Strategist Podcast, and with me are Corey Hogan and Zane Velji. Make sure you sign up for the Patreon and pay us our $6. We'll see you again next week.

Zain 48:41

has anyone ever told you that you should never run for political office carter that

Carter 48:45

that was pretty good i thought well you know i'm

Zain 48:47

i'm just saying that was it too

Zain 48:49

that was that's a good intro that was really good

Transcript