Episode 1828: Intimacy coach

Zain 0:01

This is a strategist episode 1828. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Carter, I got to pick up on something. You were actually, we're starting the show by having to absorb a bit of the shock from

Zain 0:15

from your side of the Zoom world. You've just realized that elected and appointed officials have podcasts. Yeah,

Carter 0:23

Yeah, I am shocked. I am shocked. I did not know that elected and appointed officials have podcasts because what would they be able to say? Nothing.

Carter 0:34

It'd be like West of Center, except

Corey 0:41

So Zane, unrelated note, I hear you were on West of Center. I wasn't West of Center. Yeah,

Zain 0:48

hear we have t-shirts made for them. And of course, you can listen to my appearance not at westofcenter.ca that is a domain

Zain 0:55

domain you actually have to

Corey 0:56

to go to cursivepolitics.com that's

Zain 0:58

that's right to go that's right

Zain 1:00

right that's right to listen to the west of center podcast is that is that true that is accurate yeah okay that is that's that's uh it's some jokes never get old

Corey 1:10

we forget our jokes

Zain 1:10

jokes actually you know what carter

Zain 1:12

were just chatting before the show began about um podcasts like that are not ours um and we were talking about paula simons having a podcast this now actually reminds me of a topic that i didn't wasn't planning on discussing today but let's get into this before we get into the provincial style oh man this

Corey 1:27

this has real dairy queen intro energy no

Zain 1:30

no it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't because this is actually relevant nathaniel erskine smith had justin trudeau on his podcast let me rephrase

Zain 1:37

a liberal mp had his leader of his party like

Corey 1:42

like a hard-hitting interview

Corey 1:43

interview zane sounds i

Carter 1:44

i heard justin prime minister please Please tell me how great you are. Could you tell me how great you are? That'd be great.

Carter 1:51

Thank you, Prime Minister. What

Zain 1:52

What is weirder to you? What is weirder to you, actually? What is weirder to you? Having your boss on a podcast? Or having a podcast given your job function as a member of parliament.

Zain 2:02

Because we've talked about MPs as pundits, and Erskine Smith, who I like quite a bit, and I think is a sharp, sharp, and often a

Zain 2:11

a lone voice in the Liberal caucus. And they talk about this on the podcast with Trudeau on it. But Carter, he's got his own media platform. Michelle Rempel does. Paula Simons, who we're just chatting about, the senator does. What's weirder to you? That that exists? That you've got these quasi-pundit-like podcasts from MPs, elected and appointed officials, or the fact that Justin Trudeau went on Nathaniel Erskine-Smith's podcast?

Carter 2:36

I think that Justin Trudeau going on is probably the worst thing. But the fact that these podcasts exist is pretty horrible i have no idea why they would michelle rempel has a podcast no she's

Zain 2:47

she's got a sub stack we've talked about this she's got a sub stack where she she talks as if she's like a pundit being like what's wrong with justin trudeau and while he why is he kind of flailing does anybody listen

Carter 2:57

to these things like i

Carter 3:00

i'm always shocked that people listen to

Zain 3:01

to us well let me tell you something on the nader skin smith one paul wells wrote like a multi-piece piece like back-to-back deep dive analysis on it which i found actually the writing was great but i found the analysis also quite interesting yeah

Carter 3:17

he's like a second cousin of mine is

Carter 3:20

is he okay is that a youth actually no he literally is a second cousin what

Corey 3:23

what would it be a youth you know what never mind let's just move second cousin i

Zain 3:28

mean in my community south asian uh you

Zain 3:33

you want you want want to fill in the blanks, Corey?

Carter 3:34

No, we're terrified of you. You scare the shit out of

Zain 3:38

of us most of the time. You are terrified of me. I'm scared. Hey,

Zain 3:42

what's weirder? What's worse? What's strategically stupider? Having

Zain 3:45

Having a podcast as an MP or an elected official or having your boss on set podcast?

Corey 3:50

Yeah, I got to tell you, I don't think either are strategically stupid. I think listening to a podcast like that is strategically stupid. That's not a good use of your time i mean you're just mainlining propaganda into your veins at that point and if that's your thing i guess that's your thing but like what are you gonna hear from nader skin smith you're gonna why don't you just go save yourself some time and browse the news releases coming out of the government of canada to find out exactly what his stance is on everything and similarly if you want to hear what he thinks about justin trudeau why

Corey 4:24

why don't you go read the press releases from the government of canada like for it to be any good whatsoever he would have to have a job other than the job he has and i'm sure that there's probably a little bit of interesting oh i didn't know that's how the sausage was made content but

Corey 4:37

but like oh there's not a video that would be on the news right like it's not actually it's like here's a very clean factory where a sausage orderly goes down a conveyor belt right it's not going to actually tell you anything of substance because because if it did, he'd be fucking fired. That's my view of it all. But I can't blame him. What's the harm? What's the downside? He's got that super partisan, super diehard crowd. The type of person who wants to listen to propaganda podcasts, who are that deep into the liberal tank, they

Corey 5:11

they like him more now. And if he has some leadership ambitions in the future, if he wants to be a bit of a kingmaker down the road, queenmaker, hey,

Corey 5:17

hey, why the hell not? More power to him carter

Zain 5:20

carter would you advise any member of parliament to have their own podcast

Carter 5:25

because you can't because podcasts should be entertaining and

Carter 5:28

and by definition they're not going to be definitely you know entertaining well

Corey 5:33

well listen i got a question for you zane if you were elected yeah

Corey 5:38

tomorrow yes because of course you are running in the next election i'm soft launching that yeah

Corey 5:43

for leader uh yeah

Zain 5:44

yeah is is the title uh all the leaders four and

Corey 5:48

the uh constituency or whatever absolutely if you won yes you wouldn't continue doing a podcast hold

Carter 5:55

hold on this sounds like an out well

Zain 5:58

no i've been looking for an out for a very long time please anyone i'm looking for a life raft of any kind

Carter 6:06

annalise is back from vacation today oh

Zain 6:09

oh wonderful i'm so glad i am so glad um

Zain 6:13

no, not this one. Not this one. But I think it is a legitimate question to ask anyone,

Zain 6:20

anyone, Carter. Like, and he's, Erskine Smith is interesting. Maybe he, in his own right, is the case study here, which he's, I wouldn't say he's a pariah in the liberals, but he's often a lone voice. He has a dissenting voice. They tolerate him because he is sometimes that dissenting voice. He's kind of built a bit of a brand around that. He's like the Michael

Corey 6:42

of the liberal party. Yeah,

Zain 6:42

Yeah, I'm like my own thing within this thing, right? And

Zain 6:46

And so he's on a brand building exercise. If I was, to your point, Corey, on a bit of a brand building exercise as a, let's say, a liberal or a new Democrat from the West, and that was a thing, and I wanted to really show that that was a sensibility I brought to the table, would I start creating products? Can I just take a minute and

Corey 7:05

tell you how proud I am that you wouldn't even peg down what party you would run for? Oh,

Zain 7:09

Oh, no. Yeah, that's really good. Let them figure out their leadership situation, and then I might decide. Yeah, one of them might be more progressive than the other, and it might surprise you which one

Zain 7:19

these days, Corey. So, here's the thing. Here's the thing. It's

Carter 7:23

It's running for the conservatives.

Zain 7:25

Yeah, I am talking about the conservatives. Here's the thing, Hogan. If

Zain 7:28

If I was wanting to be in the mold of a Nate Erickson Smith, maybe. Like, I wouldn't advise it to myself. I'd talk to people like the two of you, be like, guys, is this a crazy idea? Like, I want to start making sure I'm not identified by what the Laurentian or Eastern version of this party looks like and make sure people, especially my constituents, understand that I'm going to be sticking up for them. So maybe, my answer to you is a maybe, pending your advice and perhaps even your answer right now, Corey. Okay.

Corey 7:58

Well, maybe you're turning me around a little bit on this because there is a possibility. Let me put it this way. My gut instinct, my first reaction is to my response

Zain 8:08

response to this overall no

Corey 8:10

no i'll just say my my instant reaction is like what a dumb idea because you can't do it and still be a team player and the ways that you need to be a team player to advance their traditional way through a party which largely is based on competence and loyalty to leader and not causing trouble for the leader and

Zain 8:26

fuck up and not you know doing

Corey 8:27

doing all that well and

Corey 8:28

not like derailing the story yeah

Corey 8:31

you're an mp you have a constituency that constituency is not podcast listeners across the country. You're a cabinet minister, you have a constituency. That constituency is a narrow slice of people across the country, right? It's not a general interest podcast. So, you know, that's my first reaction is, why are you doing that? But somebody is going to take a different approach to the leadership. And it's got proto models throughout the country right now. We saw it held with Christy Clark being a radio personality. We saw it with Danielle Smith, Smith, of course, being a radio personality, and then having a podcast.

Corey 9:04

Somebody is going to say, I

Corey 9:06

I can be inside-outside, right? I don't need to do the outsider thing. I don't need to do the insider thing. I can be the person who is an elected member and I can build a power base, and then I am better positioned to take over the party perhaps than either of those other two categories.

Corey 9:20

Very possible to me. The challenge you have, I

Corey 9:24

I think, is being

Corey 9:27

meaningful to people, like actually saying something that's going to get people to gravitate to you and being enough of an iconoclast that people say, oh my God, if only them, without losing your job, right? Without being kicked out of the caucus, without being so interesting as to be dangerous. So I mean, that's a bit of a tightrope to walk, but maybe you're talking me into it.

Zain 9:47

Carter, is Corey selling you on any element of this as he perhaps talks himself into it? no

Carter 9:53

no i'm i'm like googling

Carter 9:55

googling madly how what the rankings are for these podcasts um

Carter 9:59

um i'm not i don't think that they're listen to anybody i mean any idiot can open a podcast we've we've discussed this before any three any three ones can put together a podcast and

Zain 10:12

think even even stupider people would call it opening a podcast but that's fine carter anyways

Carter 10:18

anyways my point is simply this my point is that you can have a podcast but if no one listens it's just you talking into a microphone and

Carter 10:26

and i think that that's where most podcasts fail most podcasts don't have people who listen um certainly people who don't you know you don't have people who come back week after week uh just you know how many podcasts we watch launch and fail um

Carter 10:41

it's it's just a very difficult medium and to do so with one arm tied behind your back and your brain stuck in partisan mode i just don't know how you could possibly do it i

Carter 10:51

i mean look look at early what a disaster you

Carter 10:55

you know and that's that's one of the good ones carter

Zain 11:00

carter anyone else um you

Zain 11:02

you want to take a shot at before we move on is there anybody else system well

Carter 11:06

it'd be a good part of the discourse but we don't have any any time to throw throw stones at them you know so let's move on let's move on let's

Zain 11:13

let's move it on on cory to our first segment our first segment my chemical romance cory alberta premier daniel smith says her recent comments about chemtrails don't mean that she believes that the united states government is spraying them on our province smith faced criticism after she spoke according to the cbc report about chemtrails last weekend at a united conservative party town hall a member town hall. During the town hall, in response to an audience question where a member suggested that chemtrails were being sprayed over Edmonton, she said, quote, the best I have been able to do is talk to the woman who's responsible for controlling the airspace. And she says, no one is allowed to go up and spray anything in the air. She added, the other person told me that if anyone's doing it, it's the US Department of Defense.

Zain 12:05

we've talked about Daniel Smith and conspiracy theories. Peddling them, propagating them, supporting them, starting them. Not starting them, but getting them into our political, Alberta political bloodstream.

Zain 12:17

How bad is this on the ranking of things that she said in the past? And does it matter that she's now said it as a sitting premier versus a podcaster, radio host, all those sort of things, the bundle of clips that us in the NDP tried to put out there during that 2023 election? Is it materially different now when

Zain 12:34

when when she's premier you

Corey 12:38

maybe before we even get there i can't help but note things that were disqualifying in the past aren't i think

Corey 12:45

i think generally we would agree that and

Corey 12:48

and that has certainly been true in politics people have realized they can just double down they can say it's not a problem they can move on from this but

Corey 12:55

but the the absolute extremities of that i

Corey 12:59

i don't know People don't necessarily want to touch that electric fence and see if it's still on, right? This is interesting to me because chemtrails

Corey 13:08

chemtrails more than almost anything else we've talked about, including things like the COVID vaccine and what it could potentially mean, whether Justin Trudeau was trying to shut down the oil sands secretly, like all of the other run-of-the-mill conspiracies we have right now. Chemtrails, even in that orbit, chemtrails

Corey 13:26

chemtrails is what crazy people think crazy people people say. It's like the far edge of crazy. It is the shorthand in pop media for crazy. Somebody thinks chemtrails are a thing. That, tinfoil hats to get brain reading radiation off of you, and I guess the flat earthers, those are the holy trinity of, holy fuck, this person is out of their mind. To see a premier of Alberta go right up to the line there, it's a very generous to say that she was just kind of throwing things back i mean

Corey 14:01

mean i'm really curious to see if this one has staying power i'm not necessarily even saying it will but i'm saying it's probably got a better chance of having staying power than pretty much anything else she's done simply because it is the most extreme imaginable example of

Corey 14:17

of indulging in conspiracy theories like it's it's a conspiracy theory conspiracy theorists think is a conspiracy theory carter

Carter 14:26

well i'll tell you something I mean, how

Carter 14:28

how do you take direction from someone who is even willing to play footsie with this idea, right? Like, she

Carter 14:37

you know, she doesn't mean, it doesn't mean that she believes that chemtrails are, you should

Carter 14:42

should be discounting that right from the beginning. You should be saying to people who come up to you and say, listen, chemtrails, we have to do something about chemtrails. You should be saying to them, I'm sorry, there are no such things as chemtrails. It's water vapor after, you know, that appears. Yeah,

Corey 14:54

Yeah, contrails coming from a jet engine. yeah on

Corey 14:56

on the right weather conditions yeah

Carter 14:58

yeah so please like please don't bring me your crazy

Carter 15:02

but she she brings that she allows the crazy to come to her and then she indulges the crazy and it doesn't mean matter whether she says she believes it or not she has indulged it that's

Corey 15:13

that's not even just indulging because then there were follow-up phone calls to see well i guess i'm premier i should check into this chemtrail thing yeah

Zain 15:20

yeah i should use government time resources now Now, again,

Corey 15:23

again, to be charitable, maybe it's, I keep getting this question from people

Corey 15:27

people and I better give them an answer.

Corey 15:30

How is your answer not?

Carter 15:30

not? There's no charity to this. There's no ability to be charitable. There is no ability to allow Danielle Smith to walk away from this. If this is the decisions that she's making, and let's be clear that it is, the decision that she made was to look into chemtrails to see if they were real.

Carter 15:47

While we're at it, why don't we look for the giant spaghetti monster? What

Carter 15:50

What is it that we're looking for? What is it that we're talking about? How is this possible that she has this openness to

Carter 16:00

to conspiracies? And then we allow her to make decisions about our healthcare system. We allow her to make decisions about our education system. We allow her to make decisions about the green line. This is not someone who is rational emotional enough to be making these decisions. And that's the connection that should be made. It's not, did she look at chemtrails? It's, this is a woman who looks at chemtrails and is now making decisions in all these big other, in all these other areas.

Carter 16:29

Because it is disqualifying to

Carter 16:32

to be the person who says, well, I'm open to the idea of chemtrails. It is disqualifying.

Zain 16:38

Corey, is Carter right in his most optimal

Zain 16:42

optimal way of weaponizing chemtrails against Daniel Smith, which is to link it to competency on decision making on files that Albertans actually care about? Or is there another way in your mind to make this a successful hit

Zain 17:00

against the premier? here well

Carter 17:03

i think it does come down to judgment and character it

Corey 17:06

it ultimately you have the judgment of thinking this is perhaps something i should look into seeing this is credible that

Corey 17:14

that that is a judgment question and then there's character the type of person who would

Corey 17:19

i mean again if you want to be charitable she is really indulging in some of the darkest corners of Like that's the charitable read. The charitable read is one of no character or of limited character. So like that is, I

Corey 17:35

don't know. I mean, like this is one I really struggle with here because I just, I feel like Daniel has to know better, but this

Corey 17:42

this is just such a wild thing to see. Parker

Zain 17:45

Parker thought on Daniel has to know better for a second, because there's another sort of revisiting I want to do on our premiere based on this most recent episode. Carter, advise Nenshi. What should he do here? How should he talk about chemtrails? Is this a pitch that he and the NDP should swing at?

Carter 18:03

Absolutely. But there's a way to swing at this particular pitch. And the way to swing at the pitch is to not make fun of it.

Carter 18:09

This isn't a joking matter. It's not a laughing matter. it's not something that is funny because she's decided to do it it is

Carter 18:14

is something that is serious as hell right

Carter 18:17

right chemtrails and the people who believe in chemtrails um believe that the government is engaged in a conspiracy designed to hurt the population anybody

Carter 18:26

anybody who's indulging in that anybody who's who's enabling that type of discourse should be disqualified from office that's the way we should be tackling this you can't tackle it like um you know wrapping some tinfoil around your head and hoping that it's pretty funny you have to tackle this in terms of it's not funny it is serious as hell and the fact that that this is the the latest conspiracy just the latest conspiracy that she's willing to indulge it

Carter 18:57

it it speaks to her character it speaks to her ability to to know information like the

Carter 19:02

the information that she's being presented how do we We know that that's rational information that she's even

Carter 19:07

even looking at. We don't. And that's the way to attack this.

Carter 19:12

Jump on it, but do not take it as a joke. It's not a joke. Not funny.

Zain 19:19

Interesting thoughts, Corey. React to what Carter said, and more specifically, should Nenshi and the NDP be swinging at this pitch?

Corey 19:28

Yeah, I like what Stephen has said there, because there is something about, we've often We often talk about humor as a way to cut through things. And I think that there's some logic to that. But

Corey 19:37

But we have to appreciate that when you make a humorous barb against somebody, there is going to be a bit of a reaction from the observer that, oh, they're just being funny. They've just found a funny way to do things. And it all blurs together as, I think, just a kind of a general type of attack, which is, you know, they've made them look foolish for sure, but it's not necessarily disqualifying in the way that Stephen is talking about. what Stephen is saying, something I think that's a little bit more profound here, which is

Corey 20:07

this is really kind of scary. This is somebody who has responsibility for a lot of issues and is taking some very concerning counsel and making some very concerning decisions that you are never going to see. Folks, this was at a private UCP event where she referenced private phone calls with officials. What are we not seeing? The tip of the iceberg tells us to be scared, but we're only seeing the tip. And there is an awful lot to government

Corey 20:36

government that is day-to-day judgment calls and day-to-day character calls.

Corey 20:39

And this is very concerning. This is not a funny thing at all. This is a concerning thing. I think that the attack that Stevens outlined there, that

Corey 20:47

that makes a bit of sense to me, right? That at least on its surface really resonates. I'd want to focus group it. I'd want to see how people reacted to it. But I think that one of the benefits of it is it is a tone change and it just can't feel like oh you're just being shitty you're always shitty to daniel smith you guys are always mean to daniel smith it's got to feel different and this goes to the benefit of having range because in some ways i think if if the uh you know the opposition was always um

Corey 21:15

um serious and grave like that then maybe you'd want to consider changing up

Corey 21:19

a different shot here but yeah i agree uh with steven on on that general analysis as to probably a good approach to take if you're not heading into the NDP. So

Zain 21:29

So this next question might just be me,

Zain 21:33

but Carter, is there an education deficit on what chemtrails actually are and what the conspiracy is? Because I had to, although I've heard it before, I had to kind of look it up and

Zain 21:45

and around why a lot of people around me were making a lot of noise about this. I'm being totally honest. So I'm one of the people that obviously had heard of chemtrails knew that like what i felt about them which was that oh yeah this is not a real thing but i actually had to look like what exactly is the conspiracy do you feel like there is a bit of an education i mean should we take a minute there

Corey 22:02

there and say like like the main one because i bet you you're not the only person even in our listeners here yeah

Corey 22:08

is that governments are trying to sterilize people with chemicals some versions are mind control with chemicals you know dropped from from 30,000 feet as if that makes any fucking sense in the world. But yeah, this is the conspiracy theory that out of commercial

Corey 22:25

commercial jets and other jets, out of their engines- There's like a

Zain 22:29

a systemic or systemized plan to do certain things or have certain outcomes

Zain 22:35

felt by the people. Carter, do you feel like that's an issue that there might be an education delta on what the conspiracy is that you'd have to spend time and energy defining it before you start going down your path of how serious we need to take it and how this is like a grave you know concern on one's judgment i

Carter 22:52

think it can be a two sentence explanation right i'll tell you something uh anybody who's in government knows that

Carter 22:59

that the government is not trying to sterilize us anybody

Carter 23:02

anybody who's in government knows that these claims are bullshit and the person who doesn't know is the premier of our province right

Carter 23:09

right she she is actively looking for for conspiracy style information. That's how she's making her decisions, Zane. That's how she makes her decisions on chemtrails. This is how she makes her decisions on healthcare. This is how she makes her decisions on education. This is how she makes her decisions on everything.

Carter 23:26

I just want to go back one half step to the comedy thing. It would be very easy to make this comedic, but keep in mind that when they've studied skit shows or sketch shows like SNL, and they do humorous attacks on someone, it has zero impact. The devastating attacks that Saturday Night Live has done on all these different politicians have zero impact on popular vote. When

Carter 23:52

When you go to funny,

Carter 23:54

you can get attention, but you're not necessarily going to get results. Or

Zain 24:01

Corey, anything to add around this education piece and its requirement requirement prior to waging a counterattack or using this against the premier from a political standpoint?

Corey 24:14

wonder if this wouldn't necessarily be an opportunity for this rule to break. This notion of if you're explaining, you're losing.

Corey 24:22

I think that it might be a chance for the NDP to score a more direct hit when they're educating here, right? And it goes, I think, just put Put yourself back into Stephen's frame there, and you say, this is a premier who believes in chemtrails. People laugh, and you say, no, folks, this is a conspiracy theory that chemicals are being dropped on us by the government to sterilize us. This is something that the premier thought we needed to look into because there was potentially a possibility, and then waved towards NORAD, our American allies, and Canada Joint Defense as somebody who might be doing this. Folks, this is serious. that is that is pretty that's pretty outside of the lines here and so i think that educating where people just hear chemtrails and we've heard chemtrails for so long we just sort of laugh about it like ah chemtrails crazy stuff right it's like yeah

Corey 25:12

take a minute and think about what that means what she thinks is occurring here and i think that that education is an opportunity to just underline really

Corey 25:21

really how wild this is or the

Zain 25:22

the gravity of the conspiracy of it Yeah, yeah, in your terms. Like this

Corey 25:26

this is not a conspiracy that somebody is trying to make money on a vaccine that's not as effective. Also a conspiracy theory, right? Right. But it sort of leans on this idea of, you know, there's people out to get cash and, you know, the FDA and all of these approving agencies, they have connections with the company,

Zain 25:43

you know, and this brings the truth to that, right? Sure, sure. This

Corey 25:46

This is so different than that. This is an entirely different type of conspiracy theory that our premier is peddling in. Carter,

Zain 25:52

Carter, can we walk one more step down this path? Is there anything in

Zain 25:57

in our current Alberta political suite

Zain 26:02

of policies, legislation, conversation that you would tie this type of thinking to, the Daniel Smith type of thinking that you're suggesting, that this is the same individual making decisions on, insert big issue here? would it

Zain 26:17

it be gender affirming care and trans kids would it be ahs would it be education was there something in your mind that is a natural fit to make that point concrete

Carter 26:29

well i mean she

Carter 26:30

she is redefining the entire mental health system

Carter 26:34

you know i mean around like

Zain 26:35

like addictions and mental health and like in harm

Carter 26:37

harm reduction people okay

Carter 26:40

people used to get locked up for thinking these types of thoughts right like this This conspiracy theories have been around forever. Let's not pretend that they haven't. I mean, Elvis is alive. Jesus walks among us. Whatever the conspiracy may be, these aren't new. They

Carter 26:56

They are old ideas. They are things that we just recycle what those ideas are. And she's redefining. She wants to put people in care against their will.

Carter 27:07

You know, people against

Carter 27:09

against their will used to be people who talked about chemtrails.

Carter 27:13

things similar to chemtrails you could do that i mean it's probably too on the nose i just like tying it to the big issues like

Carter 27:20

like i keep saying education health care and and you

Carter 27:23

know the green line i

Carter 27:25

if you reject science to the point when

Carter 27:29

you know we if you reject science to the point where you where you're starting to believe in chemtrails how are we supposed to trust that you can actually do the evaluation on whether or not there's a tunnel and

Carter 27:39

the tunnel makes sense right

Carter 27:40

right like which conspiracy theorists are you talking to like jim gray is

Carter 27:44

is an engineer but he's not a he's

Carter 27:46

he's not a struck he's never built a fucking tunnel right

Carter 27:50

probably been involved in some pipelines which

Carter 27:52

which i'm told are circular structures that go underground um but you know whatever i mean they're different they're different because they carry his stuff he cares about instead of people um but nonetheless you know i think that you can just tie it to anything, really. I really think you can tie it to whatever the topic of the day is.

Zain 28:10

Corey, any thoughts about taking

Zain 28:15

frame that you both have leaned into, take it seriously, talk about how this is about judgment and character. Is there any immediate policy issue that comes to mind and saying, and that level of judgment and character is being applied to X and we can see the proof of it because it is based on either a hollowness or a whim or a conspiracy theory light suggestion. Your thoughts?

Corey 28:42

I can imagine a bit of an ad. This is actually sort of how these things get built. Indulge me for a minute.

Zain 28:51

you're talking like a TV spot or something or a digital spot. Imagine

Corey 28:55

Imagine we're sitting around the table. We're talking about, well, how do we use this thing here yeah

Corey 28:59

yeah i'll throw out a pitch here we

Corey 29:01

we have uh in daniel smith again imagine i'm working for the ndp of course in this scenario we have with daniel smith um somebody

Corey 29:09

somebody who called arthur palowski right she phoned arthur palowski to talk about how to get him out of uh trouble in the coots blockade we

Corey 29:19

we have a premier who phoned somebody to see if chemtrails are real you

Corey 29:23

you know who the premier hasn't called she's never called the head of the ata she's i don't know if that's true i'm just saying for the purposes of the ad you could find out right she has never called the head of the nurses unit she has never called and you could you could make a list of people that she's never called but she's found time to call these people yeah

Zain 29:39

yeah you could call it like daniel smith's speed dial or her favorites in her contacts right you could almost and so there becomes

Corey 29:44

becomes a question of like this is where she's spending her time and this is what she's concerned with and um

Corey 29:51

think there might be something there i'm not entirely sure it gets away from that overall objective that Steven was talking about, about making it seem serious. Maybe it needs to be workshopped a bit more, but I do feel like there is something to judgment on that front.

Zain 30:07

Carter, let's go to Danielle Smith for a second.

Zain 30:10

Is her best immunity here what I heard recently when I was on the West to Center podcast, and not to say this is from the talking point from her party but that she's a great listener that

Zain 30:22

that this is this is what you get this is what you get when you have someone who is attentive um in the moment listens to every conversation takes every conversation seriously doesn't marginalize any voice i'm paraphrasing what i heard but

Zain 30:38

but this is this is the hallmark of someone who has that political skill and

Zain 30:46

And often a positive, this time not so much. Is that the best political

Zain 30:50

political immunity for her right now? Or do you have a better one?

Carter 30:53

Political immunity for her? First of all, that's fucking stupid. I mean, I listen to people who are fucking insane and that's how I make my decisions. That is really weak sauce. And I hope whoever came up with that argument, you defeated them soundly on West of Center.

Carter 31:12

Unless it was Kathleen. Kathleen.

Carter 31:14

No, Kathleen wasn't hosting. It was Jason. It was probably Jason's idea. Oh, great, Jason.

Carter 31:19

But nonetheless, I mean, I think-

Zain 31:21

- We're going to have to run an apology tape at the end of this episode. How many people, Carter? I am counting five already that we may need to apologize to, directly or

Carter 31:29

Keep going. That's nothing. See me on a weekday.

Carter 31:31

Here's the thing. I just don't think that you get away with being, I'm a good listener. I mean, I listened to people who said to me that the Las Vegas Vegas shooting was an inside job. I've listened to people who said to me that the Twin Towers came down because of an internal thing that the Jewish people wanted to do. I've heard all kinds of fucking lunacy. I remember hearing Oscar Fecht tell me that there was a billion dollars in the basement of the fucking city hall.

Carter 32:03

I've heard all kinds of fucking crazy shit. I've listened to all of it and here's what i did i went well that's fucking trash that's fucking trash that's fucking trash and i didn't listen to any of it i didn't bring it back up and spit it out of my mouth and say you know what i heard from a reputable source that there's fucking a billion dollars in the basement of city hall i'll tell you if there was a billion dollars in the basement of city hall i'd have fucking found it in my three months and i had to come out of there with a billion fucking dollars in my pocket but

Zain 32:36

but you looked right still you look yeah you definitely look how do you not look i

Carter 32:42

i mean i had a pass it could get me anywhere fantastic yeah how

Zain 32:45

did you you think you got fired because of the fact that you're trying to look this is opening a whole new thing

Zain 32:54

were getting way too close to the money and

Zain 32:58

and they were like get this fucking guy out of here A

Corey 33:01

A hundred percent it. Man,

Zain 33:02

Man, mystery solved. Thanks a lot.

Zain 33:09

Best political immunity she has, or can you think of a better one for me? And Carter, I need you to help me think of a better one. I get what you want to rail on.

Corey 33:16

on. Yeah, I think it's a fine immunity. Listen, let's just start with the obvious criticism of that. If it's just about listening, there's ways she could have phrased that a bit different. She gets this question, she says, you're not the first person to ask me about that. And frankly, there's not really any merit. I just simply don't believe for technical reasons and for other moral reasons, logistical reasons. That's just not, that's not happening. Right.

Corey 33:38

But the, one of the people who asked me encouraged me to follow up and said, this person has the details. So I did call and well, there's nothing to it. Right. And so just rest assured that you know, I, I did follow up even though I was skeptical to begin with, and there is nothing to it. Like, I think you could have have framed it like that instead of how it was framed but the

Corey 34:00

the listener is the best defense because it is also something that is and this goes to what makes a good defense on these matters when a politician gets fucking nailed for something often um people

Corey 34:12

people will say well we

Corey 34:14

we can just say x because x is something that's generally true about politician right i'm going to give like a lazy generic like philandering politician example right it's oh well supposedly Supposedly he was found in a hotel with this woman. Well, he's always talking to constituents in hotels. That's true. We always knew Bob Smith's always talking to constituents. He's always out and about talking to folks. So it kind of means nothing. Say the real name, Corey.

Corey 34:40

Similarly. Say the real name, Corey.

Corey 34:43

If you are a politician who's always listening to people, when you say something like that, you say, listen, you know, Danielle. Danielle always listens to people. That's what makes her such a strong politician. and and

Corey 34:55

so finding that kernel of truth about their character which can explain the thing of which they are accused is

Corey 35:02

is actually pretty good message and pretty good damage control it's

Corey 35:06

it's not such a bad approach I

Carter 35:07

I have no problem with Danielle Smith listening to whoever she wants to listen to it's what comes out of her mouth that I have a problem with that's

Carter 35:14

that's the problem Yeah. She said it again.

Corey 35:19

But in terms of spin, in terms of trying to clean up afterwards, in terms of your party and your party faithful going out to the airwaves and trying to carry your water, that's not a bad message. What's a better message would you build it around?

Carter 35:32

I'd pretend that she never said it.

Carter 35:39

That'd be it. I'd be

Carter 35:39

like, I shouldn't say it.

Carter 35:41

Well, here's the tape.

Carter 35:46

that's what i'd do that

Zain 35:47

that sounds like that sounds like the political strategy of a guy who gives no fucks because he's got a million bucks in his or a billion dollars in his

Carter 35:54

his billion dollars baby i feel

Zain 35:55

feel like i feel like he got a billion dollars uh which

Carter 35:57

which is a shaggy

Zain 35:58

shaggy defense huh yeah

Zain 36:00

it wasn't me play

Zain 36:01

play the song don't even don't even say wasn't me just like troll them with the song on the on the government voicemail i like that i actually like that better than your thing cory yours was is thoughtful and cogent carter i like yours it's reactionary and petty that's

Carter 36:13

that's what we go for baby hey can

Zain 36:16

can i ask you guys this question um i like to ask this every once in a while when we talk about danielle smith uh

Zain 36:22

uh and we are again uh here are

Zain 36:26

are we giving her a free pass by saying

Zain 36:31

and and we haven't said it this episode but we have suggested it that oh man she's a a

Zain 36:36

great person. We know Danielle. We've known 2008 Danielle. She's a libertarian. There's political hurdles coming up like take back Alberta, November leadership review versus

Zain 36:49

the argument that I tried to make on West of Center that maybe it's high time we just start accepting that our premier has been radicalized and she actually believes in what she's saying, that this is not a political motive, that she's not just doing this because she's got a base to indicator to, or that in the UCP universe, they eat their young from the right, not the left. So she's doing all... The dynamics of all that, which we've put out there and others, it's not like very novel, but where

Zain 37:13

where you guys had on that, I guess is my question. Are you... I'm curious to hear your analysis on where you think our premier's true intentions might lie based on this most recent episode and proof point. Well, let's clear... Or do you want to go first?

Carter 37:27

Yeah. Let's clear those up. first of all we've always said that she's a really nice person who says crazy things right so she's always been saying crazy things now is she a really nice person who's been radicalized yeah i can get my head around that she's always been radicalized she always surrounds herself with the most radical of advisors she listens to the most radical of advisors that's why we get things like the the wholesale destruction of the healthcare system that's why we get things like the wholesale undervaluing of education and the introduction of religious education now on the same level as uh as public education that's because she's been radicalized she is a radical and that's what that's what we voted for we voted for her because she was a radical it wasn't like it was unknown zane this

Carter 38:16

this is who she is it's not she's suddenly become a radical It's just another fucking stupid thing out of her mouth that climate change isn't real, chemtrails are. I

Zain 38:26

I guess the question I'm asking Carter is about conviction.

Zain 38:30

Rather than saying this is stuff she says, are you in the camp of saying that this is stuff she believes? Yes.

Carter 38:37

Because if she says it, she believes it.

Carter 38:39

I'm a simple guy. I'm

Carter 38:41

I'm a simple guy who believes that the words that come out of your mouth are the things that you say, or the things that you mean.

Carter 38:47

right when cory says something ridiculous and and almost impossible to understand he believes that shit yeah

Zain 38:55

yeah it's how his incoherent mind works i get it cory where you at on this i

Corey 38:59

think it's never so simple right our views are not so firm and they're not so unchanging as we often pretend even people who are in the public eye and people who have

Corey 39:09

have long held views right this is exactly

Corey 39:13

when you defend something cynically you

Corey 39:16

you start to believe it at least a little right this is a challenge that politicians have they can start from a place of saying i don't really believe this but i know i've got to play this game but then you start making an argument that you think will help sell it to people but you know what you're doing when you're doing that you're creating as much as anything an argument that helps sell it to yourself because we we're all subject to this right we'll sit there and we'll start thinking well that's a really compelling compelling argument for other people, but you think it's compelling for other people because you think it's compelling for you. You've got this false consensus effect where you assume everybody's going to react to things the same way you are. So, your defense of it, even cynically, makes you more likely to buy into it long-term yourself. And it's, I mean, it's a subject that causes all sorts of ills here, right? When you look at things through someone else's lens, even cynically, it starts to become your lens. When you hang out with people who believe things,

Corey 40:09

if it's cynically hanging out with them you

Corey 40:11

you start to believe those things and and so we talk about it in terms of radicalizing and i i just would caution it's

Corey 40:18

it's not a light switch right it's you you have let's just say you're danielle smith and let's just say one of the things that the people that you've been hanging out with in

Corey 40:28

in order to get through this november uh you know leadership contest one of the things they have said is you know danielle i don't always agree with you but you know what i really like about you you listen you don't tell me i'm a crazy asshole even if you disagree you'll at least hear me out and you'll at least look into it right and she starts thinking hey maybe that is what i'm great about and she starts

Zain 40:48

starts talking to these people and hey that is my x factor whatever yeah maybe

Corey 40:51

maybe that's my x factor maybe that openness to it and

Corey 40:54

and maybe that's a problem but it is um it's not just like she went off to some you know foreign war and came back an entirely different person like that's just not how it works especially when you're a premier

Carter 41:08

know she's been crazy for a long time absolutely

Carter 41:11

absolutely batshit crazy but

Zain 41:13

but i guess the question is different from the 2008 version that you intimately knew as as someone that you you worked with the

Carter 41:19

the 2008 version of it iteratively

Zain 41:21

iteratively moving down a spectrum rather than a whoa like she was not crazy then she's crazy now i mean we

Carter 41:27

we spent a half an hour in her office trying to talk into uh you

Carter 41:32

you know supporting evolution well i'm not there's a lot of holes there's a lot of holes in the theory of everything they only call it a theory because it's a theory it's

Carter 41:40

it's just a theory

Carter 41:42

like okay you know i

Carter 41:45

had to buy a richard dawkins book you

Carter 41:47

you know like it was

Zain 41:50

personally am a creationist i believe everyone anyone can create and open a podcast when they want

Zain 41:58

let's keep let's keep let's keep this prevention let's keep this prevention let's talk about our next segment video wars danielle smith she's out with a new video coming out five days ago on october 1st about the ucp's upcoming legislation on gender policies for youth uh she says that this legislature these policies will be released in less than a month so we're suspecting that the details of what could be this omnibus extensive, whatever you want to call it, legislation or this bill will be released to us this month in October. Carter, before I get to the details of this, I'm finding this quite fascinating, the current political dynamic that we're in between Smith and Nenshi, which

Zain 42:41

which is they're like video

Zain 42:44

She releases a video, he releases a video. She releases a video, he releases a video. Maybe I am seeing it more because I'm seeing other things less. For example, the NDP are not doing a daily press conference or a five-time-a-week press conference as they used to. That is a significant difference than in the Notley era. era, but I'm also kind of seeing this back and forth response by video.

Zain 43:10

Who does that strategically benefit, Carter, from making a point perspective? Is it advantage incumbent in government because of resources, or do you feel like that's not the entire picture here in your mind? Before we get into the details of this policy, I do want to talk about this.

Carter 43:26

Let me hypothesize that video is one of those great vehicles for communicating with people who already agree with you and

Carter 43:33

then i'll just leave that hanging and allow uh cory to come in and decapitate it if he disagrees with the idea but

Carter 43:40

but i think that the

Carter 43:41

the problem with doing videos constantly is the videos are being put out there to find an audience of people who already agree with you it's not a video that changes anybody's mind to find you find people i mean think of the tiktok algorithm right tiktok algorithm is not designed to feed you things you don't like same with youtube it always feeds you things that you do like that you want to see and

Carter 44:05

and that's that's the the problem with video the people who are watching your videos are the people who like or are the most likely to already agree with you so danielle smith is in government she's got a bigger audience she's talking to that audience nenshi

Carter 44:20

nenshi needs to grow his audience it needs to be done one-on-one going out there and and it can be done through press conferences conferences and the like, but the truth of the matter is, it needs to be done the same way that he won the 2010 campaign, going out in small groups and making his argument in small groups. That is where this election will be won or lost. When I say this election, I mean the one that's three years away.

Zain 44:47

Yeah, and to his credit, I'm sure he's doing that, and their team is doing a lot of the hand-to-hand combat, we would say, in the militaristic language. but point taken. Corey, your thoughts on this, on the video wars that we're seeing? Is this new? Am I just spotting it for the first time? Has this always been the case? Give me your thought and your take.

Corey 45:06

Well, I don't think it's new. Carter's point, let me just expand on it a little bit. I generally agree with it, right? One of the things that's been true of all social social media channels over the past 15 years at this point I would say but certainly the last 10 is that they have moved from being your

Corey 45:28

your your feed is used to be populated with content from your friends and your family right

Corey 45:33

right yeah and now it has become content that the algorithm believes you will like and that's a really significant difference and I think it's an underappreciated one in politics and actually a dangerous one because you start to think based on the yardstick of when it was friends and families a successful video meant x a successful video today means x but a successful video today means y right

Corey 45:54

right it is it is a situation where you are getting your troops more riled up more so than you are persuading people and in fact you'll start to think this is everywhere man look at all of these views but these views tend to be fed to the exact audience who's likely to like it and it's just getting more sophisticated all of the time so very dangerous for political parties to rely too much on social media and think social media is like it was 10 years ago it is simply not carter mentioned a couple of really great examples youtube uh

Corey 46:25

uh tiktok of course is all about the algo right and twitter think about how many people say oh i'm on the you know the the feed accidentally that's the for you feed versus the

Zain 46:36

the following yeah it's

Corey 46:38

it's happening more and more that people are not knowing the differences between them and people are pushing towards the follow feed because they know that's what's going to happen there so if a political party knows what they're doing with these videos that's fine if they're looking to rile up the base and get donations cool awesome for you but if you're looking to change minds you got to go to paid in the social space that's been the reality for five years plus and i do think it's a reality the ucp absolutely understands i got to tell you i have been bombarded for four months about anti-na head nancy just another tax and spend liberal ads coming through i'm not you know my feed tends to skew center center left it doesn't have a lot of diehard ucp but fuck do i see a lot of their content right the um the on the flip side though i i'm not sure if the ndp is advertising to those conservative voters to get their paid content bundled in such a way at the same level that the ucp is and

Corey 47:36

and that could be a little dangerous right so just with all of these channels what i would would say to anybody in this space is you've got to know the place of earned paid and owned what audiences you're going to be speaking to what audiences you might not be speaking to and how it all works into the mix there one

Corey 47:52

one of the reasons i think nahed nenshi is more in the video wars to your point is he's not the head of the caucus and so he doesn't have a lot of those other avenues and so he's relying on these but i hope that they're boosting them out on a daily basis saying what do we think are the generic audiences i hope they're running as youtube to pre-rolls because otherwise they're not likely to,

Corey 48:12

to, they might give an illusion of movement where no movement exists. You have to be very careful about social media in 2024 because the entire thing is designed like a pellet dispenser for a rodent. Like you hit it and it gets you exactly what you want. And by the way, that is true, not just of consumers, but of posters. They want you as a poster to feel great. Like you got tons of likes, tons of retweets and everything's going in your way.

Zain 48:36

Yeah, like the wind's behind your back sort of thing, right? You're not on an island alone. In fact, the opposite. You're part of a broader community, larger than you ever felt possible. And

Zain 48:45

And more than before. Yeah, more people believe this than yesterday.

Corey 48:50

Final point on this, they're also aware that social media channels are run by professionals and that those professionals have metrics that need to be increased. And they're always helping you push your metrics higher by doing more of this algo shit to

Zain 49:03

to make it easier for you to get social media manager to be like i'm hitting it right sort of hey i'm

Corey 49:07

i'm up 15 this year

Zain 49:10

we've heard this across commercial corporate you know b2b b2c across the board right it's it's proven

Corey 49:26

the virtuous cycle that it pushes on right is that then all of a sudden you

Corey 49:32

are justifying increased investment in those channels. Okay,

Zain 49:35

Okay, Carter, let's talk about the materiality of this video.

Zain 49:40

Not a lot of new other than some information saying that we will drop this bill and its contents in terms of how far we go

Zain 49:51

But I did want to talk about one particular line, or

Zain 49:56

or one particular chunk of it.

Zain 49:58

quote, adults who choose to tell children and youth that these policies were designed to hurt them or marginalize them, that kind of rhetoric is irresponsible and harmful to the young people involved. It is entirely false.

Zain 50:11

What do you make of that?

Zain 50:13

That on one side of the argument, and just to kind of rehash it in its most crass and simplified sense and fully acknowledging that, right? You've got a lot of folks on the right wing using the parental rights frame, trying to shove as much as they can into it, including sex ed, trans rights, gender affirming care, reversing a lot or changing a lot on that. And

Zain 50:32

And then on the other side, you've got those that are saying this is going to harm kids. There is evidence that it does in other jurisdictions. This is not evidence based. This is interfering with one's doctor and their care. And, you know, if your fans are parental rights, then why are you not even allowing the ability for parents who consent to a child undergoing puberty blockers or gender affirming care to do so. Very simplified crass. I don't even cover the trans women in sports side of it just yet. But Carter,

Zain 51:02

as it's laid out there, Danielle Smith pretty much says, anyone

Zain 51:06

anyone who says that this is about harming kids or marginalizing them, shut the fuck up, right? That's not the case. That is false. What do you think strategically of inserting that line into this conversation ahead of this legislation or this bill coming out. Do you think that was on her part?

Zain 51:24

Or do you feel like that was a strategic fail on her part? I want to talk about that particularly.

Carter 51:30

No, it's absolutely wise. There

Carter 51:32

There is a whole group of people who believe that this entire situation has been brought upon us by adults telling children that this is a normal thing. This is what they should be doing. This is what they want. They don't fundamentally believe this actually even comes from children themselves. So if you don't believe that it comes from children, then what you're doing is you're saying, hey, parents or people that are pushing this agenda, stop pushing the agenda because the agenda is hurting children. And that, I believe, is their honest opinion about trans rights. There would be no trans people if there weren't other people saying, be

Carter 52:12

be trans. Why not? It's open it up. It's all wide open. That's their fundamental belief. belief their fundamental belief is that the adults are saying that this is okay and therefore it should be done and if you don't do it there's something wrong with you this is literally what the Danielle Smith and her her handlers her her crew believe I mean we talked about chemtrails just a little while ago and how they they find issues

Carter 52:38

issues and they look at issues with perverse lenses and this is the perverse lens that they're looking at this particular issue they

Carter 52:45

they are not not coming at it from a position where there may actually be trans youth. They're actually coming at it from a position that says there are only trans youth because adults have told them to be trans.

Zain 52:59

what do you make of this?

Zain 53:00

And Carter's response is one part of it, but I want to ask you the primary question, which is the premier inserting that line of saying anyone who believes that these policies

Zain 53:12

policies are harming kids, that's a mischaracterization, that's false, false. You should stop it. That's not the case. That's not what these are intended to do. Stop that conversation immediately.

Corey 53:20

Yeah. I mean, it's hard to fault the tactical

Corey 53:25

prowess there, right? Effectively saying, if you come at me for my policies, suggesting it's because I hate kids, you're the one jeopardizing kids. And

Corey 53:34

And so, a little bit of inoculation,

Corey 53:39

ironic with this particular premier, right? Well,

Zain 53:43

Ivermectin-style inoculation, yes. Well,

Corey 53:46

Well, the minute an attack comes, it's shame on you. You're politicizing this thing. You're making these kids feel unwanted. Of course, we want these kids and love these kids and you are now jeopardizing their lives, right?

Corey 54:00

Again, I mean, not super if you think it's cynical, But there is also a possibility that everything Stephen said is somewhat true, that people believe that trans kids would not exist without adults saying this. But then within that worldview, within that frame, wrong though it may be, then believing, well,

Corey 54:20

well, so like what I'm doing is I'm trying to protect kids, right? So everybody thinks they're protecting kids at this particular moment. I think that we should probably start from there. And everybody thinks the other side is wrong, for

Corey 54:32

for sure. I certainly don't think that it's a particularly great use of government power to intervene on what is a handful of kids' very personal choices. Myself, I think that small governments probably should be even less disposed to do that. But

Corey 54:48

nobody is sitting there saying, fuck

Corey 54:51

fuck the kids. I just don't believe that. And I know there's going to be a lot of people listening to this who say, oh, it's shame on you. And of course they are, and they don't care. And there's cynical ploy and calculating and all of that. But I just actually don't believe that's what's going on here. And I think that that's part of what makes Danielle Smith's tactic here, I think, pretty good. Because a lot of Albertans will feel the same as me, even if me and those other Albertans are wrong, will say, well,

Corey 55:16

well, you know, maybe we do need to kind of take it down a notch, even if I think that the conservatives are totally wrong on this one. Carter,

Zain 55:23

Carter, let me put all the pieces together that we know of. The parental rights frame is popular from

Zain 55:28

from a polling perspective. It's been kickstarted by Higgs, adopted by Moe, has found its way here in Alberta, where

Zain 55:35

where Daniel Smith might be having the most expansive, we'll find out this month, as we know. I mean, Jesus, we sort of watched it come across the provinces.

Zain 55:42

Really, just bouncing along.

Corey 55:43

Well, and you could run the tape on us saying, well, it probably won't happen here. Yeah,

Zain 55:47

Yeah, I was going to

Zain 55:48

ask you guys about

Zain 55:49

about that. And there's a part of you that said, And I think you guys both hedged a bit on that, that it wouldn't come here, but it's here and we're going to find out the details shortly. So

Zain 55:56

So we know the parental rights frame is popular.

Zain 56:00

know that we might have the

Zain 56:01

most expansive version of policies here. And we also know that Daniel Smith's kind of put out this protecting children, owning that side of the argument as much as she can first.

Zain 56:15

We also know that there's an active stride in opposition to this. this.

Zain 56:20

How does that opposition, whether it's like Nahid Nenshi and the Alberta NDP, Carter, or it's third-party groups or that coalition of the opposition and third-party groups, how do

Zain 56:32

battle this? How do they fight this? How do you kind of win the frame? I know it's such a broad question, but I'm just curious to get your thoughts on it now that it is becoming real, a bit more real, and even looking at the calendar a bit, Carter. We might We might see this thing as Bill 1 or Bill 2, even prior potentially, and this is pure speculation, to our leadership review in November. So we're looking at three weeks to a month in which this thing comes into real focus. How

Zain 57:02

How does the United Opposition here oppose?

Carter 57:09

I wish I had a good answer. I really do. I wish I had a good answer that made a lot of sense. but i think that the um most likely answer is that it's not going to have resonance until someone dies and it's the same thing with uh traffic right a bad intersection is not a real bad intersection until someone dies i'm sorry just

Zain 57:29

just so i'm i'm clear on this i think i understand what you mean you mean it

Zain 57:34

it won't have resonance until these policies become legislation and as a result of that legislation someone dies just so i am clear yeah

Carter 57:44

and it's gonna because that's what it takes our society's busted in so many different ways the parental rights argument is so strong

Carter 57:52

you know and it will be at the hands it'll either be at the hands of a parent or it'll be because of the benign indifference or less than benign indifference of a parent and uh that's how how that's

Carter 58:04

that's how it'll it'll unfold and

Carter 58:07

i don't say that with any any uh happiness

Carter 58:10

happiness in my phone you know i know yeah this is bullshit but

Carter 58:15

the truth of the matter is this doesn't have the same resonance i mean

Carter 58:19

mean cory talked about this is a small number of children making decisions for their own self this isn't um it's

Carter 58:27

it's minority right something that's greatly understood yeah it's

Carter 58:30

And there are many,

Carter 58:32

many, many cultural issues that play as well. And my God, it's going to be something that maybe when a child dies, the resonance will, you know, the outrage will be strong enough. But I'm

Carter 58:49

I'm not even sure that's it. I think you have to change the goddamn government. it.

Zain 58:53

Corey, any thoughts here? The job of opposing, what

Zain 58:57

what would make that most effective here? There's even an argument to say, this

Zain 59:03

this is a majority government. You're not going to defeat whatever legislation. Does that mean you're opposing in a different way? You're building up the force to fight back in a different manner? I'm just throwing these out there just to add additional suggestions, not to dictate your answer, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

Corey 59:23

Yeah, I struggle with this one. I'll tell you, a

Corey 59:26

a huge part of me thinks the real answer, at least for the NDP, is not one a lot of people will like and not one that a lot of people should tolerate, which is it's not a political win. Don't spend an ounce of time on it.

Corey 59:38

Set your opposition and move on. And the time that you spend arguing about this is time where you are jeopardizing that real change that Stephen was alluding to, which would come from a government change. change so i

Zain 59:51

mean there's so much you could say what do you mean by set your opposition move on do you mean like state that you're opposed and like you'll be clear on

Corey 59:58

is a bad bill moving on right this

Carter 1:00:00

this is a bad bill but let's talk about health care in general this

Corey 1:00:03

this is a bad bill i want the you know the the trans youth of alberta to know you are loved and we support you uh and then um you know we have to move on but you know like that doesn't really sound like support, does it? And so, that gets me to the second part of my conversation. And this gets into these other groups too. And what's the expectation of all of us? And where does the moral imperative outweigh the political imperative? And I think ultimately, it's going to come down to how utilitarian your philosophical outlook on life is,

Corey 1:00:31

right? And we can get real deep, real quick here. But other

Corey 1:00:34

other groups that exist specifically to tackle and address this issue, well, of course, you keep the heat up. Of course, you continue the fight. If you are a broad-based political movement that's trying to think about how you change things, including on

Corey 1:00:47

on this matter, you've got to be thinking about what makes it most likely for you to win. And that's a fucking tough place to be in, right? Because it's going to feel an awful lot like a convenient answer to let down people who we should never be letting down.

Corey 1:01:02

And I don't have really good answers for that. And I think that's a really tough question that the NDP caucus is going to to have to grapple with but i think ultimately the

Corey 1:01:09

the polling is pretty clear here right

Corey 1:01:11

right and that's not to say that albertans can't come around on this issue in the long term but in the short term in the middle term in

Corey 1:01:22

in conversations about competent minors about the philosophy of that about how many people are affected that's

Corey 1:01:27

that's really tough that's really tough if you're looking to change the government harder yeah

Carter 1:01:33

i have this theory of leadership in politics and 50 of the time you have to lead you have to you have to show people the direction right and 50 of the time you have to reflect what their values are and the genius of politics is knowing when you're reflecting and when you're projecting and

Carter 1:01:49

and this is a reflection moment for

Carter 1:01:53

for me the population has chosen that they They're going to shit on trans youth.

Carter 1:01:59

That's wrong. It's horrible. It's disgusting.

Carter 1:02:03

it's not viable at this particular moment to change their outcome.

Carter 1:02:11

that what I want to say? No.

Carter 1:02:14

Right? I'll fight the fight. Let's go. I'll fight the fight with people. But the truth of the matter is, if I was advising Nenshi, I'd point out that you've got a healthcare system that's in crisis.

Carter 1:02:25

You know, you've got an education system that's falling apart.

Carter 1:02:29

These are things that I can win middle class voters on.

Carter 1:02:34

I don't know how many middle class voters are making their decisions this year or next year or the year after based on trans rights.

Zain 1:02:42

We're going to leave that segment there. Carter, moving on to our final segment, our over, under, and our lightning round. Stephen Carter, we do this for you, as

Zain 1:02:48

as you know, and we do it for your upcoming bedtime. So we just want to make sure we get everything it's done really

Carter 1:02:55

really late i brushed my teeth before the pod so that i'd be ready to go to straight wow

Zain 1:02:59

wow well maybe maybe you had a good pod i feel like we had a good pod right corey i feel like he he he brought it yeah about it today like

Zain 1:03:06

like c plus if that's

Carter 1:03:07

practice is all i could ever hope for me for course that's

Zain 1:03:10

that's a new practice carter um

Zain 1:03:11

um keep doing it yeah

Carter 1:03:14

yeah i will hey

Zain 1:03:15

hey um uh in or out on using uh an intimacy coach as part of your uh manitoba tory party expenses for the 2023 campaign. Are you in or out on that? And I'm asking as a pure hypothetical, which also happens to be a pure factual.

Carter 1:03:29

If it was totally hypothetical, I'm in. If it's factual, then I am out.

Zain 1:03:35

Okay. Yeah. You as the campaign director would not have greenlit some $3,800 for an intimacy coach as part of your campaign's expenses. This is real? This is 100% potentially real. Yes.

Zain 1:03:50

it is real okay thank you yeah it's uh hot off the press well 16 hours ago uh indeed a 3800 expense for an intimacy coach in august 2033 was approved by the party despite several concerns being raised by their accounting department horry are you in or out on um on this on this type of expense for a campaign uh

Corey 1:04:14

mean i'm out i'm 100 out i'm out on any expense that makes the campaign look stupid sure

Zain 1:04:21

sure okay i was hoping for something better but i didn't give you a lot of lead time sorry i didn't give you a lot of lead time it's

Zain 1:04:28

going to be in on this

Carter 1:04:28

this no i i just felt like i just i mean we're going to get are we going to get an intimacy coach you know what i feel like for

Corey 1:04:33

we might have stepped on it i was going to say we

Zain 1:04:35

all stepped on it we'd

Corey 1:04:37

it look like we were in on it but it uh it wouldn't actually look like that it wouldn't actually be that yeah

Zain 1:04:42

what do you now i'm confused what do you mean well

Corey 1:04:44

well it's like a hollywood intimacy couch like it's i may

Zain 1:04:46

may have very well may have been i'm just gonna let others you know what like so basically these are people who i know i read headlines

Zain 1:04:53

so in hollywood i know what i mean like i'm actually

Corey 1:04:54

actually not quite clear well i'm not clear what it would be in the context of a campaign

Zain 1:04:58

think you you tell people what it is in hollywood and i'll continue reading does that sound fair oh my god okay well

Corey 1:05:05

it's it's somebody who works through all of the logistics of sex scenes and and you know intimate scenes in hollywood and often it has to do with you know what's strapped down what's there who's in the room to make sure everybody's comfortable what's the rules of engagement for everything like that and uh and so how does that apply to politics in manitoba i i can't wait to hear a

Zain 1:05:28

lot here it's about a car rental um it's about a car rental okay

Zain 1:05:35

you know this is almost like an investigative report now

Zain 1:05:38

now i wish i'd done the whole podcast on this someone just texted just watching

Corey 1:05:45

you scroll through your

Zain 1:05:48

gonna be the patreon add-on that we did on

Zain 1:05:51

on some on on the on the life coach and somatic sexologist that was hired by the the Tory party campaign. Okay, so you are out. Corey, in

Zain 1:06:00

in or out on what you see thus far as being the NDP strategy on taking Daniel Smith and Chemtrails to task? And thus far, at least from what I've seen, you had Nye Nenshi mention it this past week as part of his speech to membership for their fall party summit that they had of members, as well as a video that they filmed kind of talking about it largely in in serious terms what do you like are you liking are you in or out on how the ndp are dealing with it thus far based on what you may or may not i mean like

Corey 1:06:35

for the past three months i haven't seen anything zane so i guess i'm out

Corey 1:06:39

carter what do you think i

Carter 1:06:41

have not seen a damn thing from the ndp and

Carter 1:06:44

and so i'm out here's

Zain 1:06:46

here's the thing carter let's move it on to to danielle smith and all this oh i've

Carter 1:06:50

i've seen all of her stuff yeah

Zain 1:06:51

yeah let's Let's move it on to Daniel Smith. Talk to me about the amount of hurt the chemtrails will ultimately deliver to Daniel Smith. Is this going to be something in your mind, and I'll ask it in a binary fashion, that is going to define narrative and potentially start becoming a crystallized version of a ballot box question? Or is this a one and

Zain 1:07:13

and done in your mind? Is this something that will start leaning into judgment and character as being the question of the next election, or

Zain 1:07:21

or Stephen Carter, one and done, she'll do her thing.

Carter 1:07:25

This is a big upside for Danielle Smith because her people that are going to come and vote on the leadership are going to be more inclined to vote for her because they feel like they've been heard and seen.

Zain 1:07:40

one and done, or is this the beginning of something to start putting a narrative together against Danielle Smith on judgment and character?

Corey 1:07:48

think that depends on the NDP. And if they can

Corey 1:07:51

continue to harken back to these things, to build that case, the case goes much further back. Judgment goes to Turkish Tylenol. Judgment goes to the Alberta Sovereignty Act. There are ways to bundle these things and to continue to foreground them at regular intervals to remind people who say, oh, fuck, yeah, right. I forgot about Turkish Tylenol. Yeah.

Corey 1:08:12

We move on so quickly as a society in part because we as practitioners move on so quickly. And I think that it's not about getting the most attacks, it's about getting the best attacks and people need to think very

Corey 1:08:26

very carefully as they're constructing these future campaigns as to what they want to use and when they want to use it, how frequently they want to use it so that it's still got some stopping power. It's up to the NDP, but it could be a pretty potent ingredient. gradient.

Zain 1:08:39

We're going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 1828 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velge. With me as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan, and we'll see you next time.

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