Transcript
Zain
0:01
This is a Strategist episode 1823. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. You guys forced the show on me.
Zain
0:08
I was doing some excellent Flight of the Conchords impersonations.
Carter
0:13
No, you weren't. And that's why we forced the show. Yeah,
Zain
0:15
Yeah, they were a crime. They
Carter
0:16
They were a crime against humanity.
Zain
0:18
They were not a crime against humanity. Great show.
Zain
0:21
I thought it was pretty good. Carter, what's your best New Zealand?
Carter
0:25
Oh, it always comes out East Indian. I'm not going to try it. Yeah,
Zain
0:27
Yeah, of course, it always comes out East Indian. Yeah,
Carter
0:29
Yeah, every accent I've ever done takes me straight to the East Indies.
Zain
0:32
Indies. How do you differentiate between East Indian and West Indian? Can you just – and of course, South and North. Well,
Carter
0:38
Well, the West Indies, obviously. Yeah,
Zain
0:40
Yeah, okay. But like the accent-wise, can you maybe display it for us? No,
Carter
0:43
No, I really can't because everything winds up coming out poorly. It's not a thing I'm going to do. And by poorly,
Zain
0:48
poorly, do you mean East Indian? I mean,
Carter
0:50
mean, it sounds a little racist,
Zain
0:51
racist, Zane, is what
Zain
0:52
try and – Wow, you've already found yourself in quite a trap here.
Carter
0:55
I found myself in quite a trap here, Zane. I'd like to go back to your Flight of the Concords impersonation. That's how much I'm suffering right now. That's
Zain
1:02
That's what you call race baiting. That's what I did. I think that's what race baiting is. Oh, is
Corey
1:06
is? It's always a bit liberating for me when a minute in, I know this is going to be a Patreon episode.
Corey
1:12
There's no way I'm subjecting. What the hell
Corey
1:14
you want to talk about?
Zain
1:15
I've come prepared this time. I'm not watching a football game like last time, which by the way, I will say.
Zain
1:20
Didn't matter. I probably could watch a football game while doing
Zain
1:25
a month from a dwindling number of people.
Zain
1:29
what do you want to talk about? Anything on your mind?
Zain
1:32
What do I want to talk about? You're taking too long. Let's move it on to our first segment. Our first segment, why the fuck do we still do this? Guys, there is something that has been annoying me. It seems like, Stephen Carter, the
Zain
1:44
Taylor Swift endorsement appeal has hit this level of overdrive, and I just can't understand it.
Zain
1:53
Can we talk about – no, I don't even care about Taylor Swift. I do care about Taylor Swift. I'm a fan. But can we talk about this
Zain
2:00
this particular thing, celebrity endorsements? We've talked about a number of times, but
Zain
2:05
but from the celebrity's perspective.
Zain
2:09
you were a, let's say you're a celebrity big enough, like Taylor Swift, or LeBron James, or someone who's got massive appeal profile carter
Zain
2:21
in a 2024 world is
Zain
2:24
is there any wisdom in political endorsements
Carter
2:28
i think there is wisdom if you're uh politically active and i can think you know i can't think of any names right now but i can visualize their faces of all kinds of different actors like martin sheen for example has been politically active uh since before his time on on the West wing. And he, he has often been a voice for progressive causes. Uh, you'll find other actors and actresses who, who are singers, uh, the Dixie chicks are, I guess they're now just the chicks. Um, they have, uh, performed, uh, pink has, has shown up and done performances for different political organizations. These are all people that are politically active and part of of their um identity
Carter
3:09
identity is really yeah tied up in it now there's other people and you've mentioned taylor swift and while taylor swift has has talked about not liking trump and i think in a documentary i don't think that she's ever been that politically active uh outside of just kind of mentioning names but there is a downfall for for people
Carter
3:29
people like that i mean if you look at the dixie chicks back when they were the dixie chicks they
Carter
3:33
they got all caught up in uh in
Carter
3:35
in a bunch of things when they were decrying president george bush uh and people were you know stomping on their cd cds by the way cory are these things that uh they're like a record you
Carter
3:45
you remember records i
Carter
3:47
i remember records yeah just maybe i should be explaining it to zane then they're
Corey
3:50
they're like small records yeah i yeah i'm like what was
Carter
3:51
was yeah i shouldn't explain that
Corey
3:53
that i a guy who became an adult in the 90s you felt had to explain i
Carter
3:57
just assume that you don't know what stuff is
Carter
4:02
Anyways, I remember that. And I think that artists that aren't politically active do face a backlash.
Carter
4:08
I'd be worried if I was –
Zain
4:09
– You think there's a sorting hat based on your previous activity. You know, Carter – Corey Carter is right around the Taylor Swift thing. It was – she
Zain
4:16
she did explicitly endorse the Biden campaign in 2020, but it was a comment around Marsha Blackburn, the senator from Tennessee that she was talking about regarding women's rights, et cetera. But Corey, we've talked about this. We've talked about the lack of sort of translation
Zain
4:30
translation or effect that this may have on the overall race, but we haven't actually dug into if you were giving strategic political advice to a celebrity today, what
Zain
4:40
what would you tell them? How would you even get them to think about this? Because there's going to be a lot of people knocking on your door, in your DMs, through your public agencies, your speaking agents, et cetera, for you to say something. How would you help someone with profile today think about a political endorsement?
Corey
5:00
With everything, it starts with what do you want out of this? What are your objectives? If your objective is to sell the most records and beat the Beatles, just hit the new high score,
Corey
5:11
probably I'm not recommending you do this at all because you're going to potentially antagonize a huge part of your fan base. you're going to i
Corey
5:19
i mean the beatles did this too right when they uh when they uh politically took on jesus i suppose right when you make a comment that a group of your fan base doesn't agree with you risk them just smashing
Corey
5:33
smashing your cds or records saying uh a record is what an mp3 player was ah okay perfect
Zain
5:39
perfect thank you so much okay yeah
Corey
5:41
yeah okay for sure yeah and so if that's your goal then then I wouldn't recommend you do it at all. If your goal is a little bit different, if you're sitting there saying, hey, listen, I'm richer than Jesus. I have over a billion dollars. Jesus didn't have a lot of money, so I was just trying to carry it through line. Yeah, that's good. No, no, it's good. Yeah,
Corey
5:59
Yeah, certainly richer than Jesus. I don't
Zain
6:01
don't think Jesus was like the OG plutocrat, but
Zain
6:05
Good episode title, Carter, OG Plutocrat.
Corey
6:07
Oh, I liked it, yeah. Yeah, and that means Corey will hate it.
Corey
6:10
Yeah, and it's never going to be used now. Yeah. If
Corey
6:13
your goal is different, if you're like, I have all of the money, I'm looking to do the next thing, I want to use my voice, I'm feeling a little hollow, or I think it's important to take a stand, well, then sure. Well, then you talk about how you can have the maximum effect and maximum impact. And at that point, it becomes when would you endorse? When would it have the most stopping power? And if I were the
Corey
6:35
the Harris campaign, I would be keeping that in my pocket it until at least the first debate because
Corey
6:40
because you either have potentially a channel changing after that or
Corey
6:44
you can kick it like if you're really kicking ass you do it two weeks later just to propel the story we talked over a month ago now about how if you are harris and you're running this vibe based campaign you've got to put together vibes every week every two weeks a
Corey
6:58
a vibe yeah and it's actually been a bit of doldrums for her since the convention
Corey
7:03
obviously tomorrow night we've got a bit of uh by the time people are listening to this
Corey
7:08
it's happening right the debate with donald trump but
Corey
7:11
but uh after that what's your next event and i feel like somebody with the star power of taylor swift maybe
Corey
7:16
maybe your next event maybe it's not the big big event but it could be a huge tell me
Zain
7:22
knowing what she's done in the past cory would you advise her to do something like this i i know there's many calculations but like you know with the with the window that you see this through her profile what she's been able to do the dominance that she has in the culture, the fact that she's endorsed Biden in 2020, and the fact that she mentioned she'd regretted not doing it a couple years ago. How hard would you push and what would you advise her?
Corey
7:47
If she wants to do it, she should go ahead and do it. And it sounds like she probably does. But to be honest, I think I'd have a hard time recommending she do it.
Corey
7:54
She's an incredible artist. That doesn't necessarily mean she's a brilliant political mind. I've never had had a conversation with her about it. I've never watched her political views. I don't want the Swifties coming after me, but I don't know. You don't need to do these things. We don't need every person
Corey
8:09
person we know to give a political opinion all the time. This is the heart of my question. I
Zain
8:12
I find really interesting, Corey, which is the backlash for not doing it, right? It's almost ramped up right now, the rhetoric, especially with her, that if she doesn't do it, does she lose anything? I find that fascinating right now from a cultural perspective where it's on... And part of it is Was there a DNC sort of special guest and she didn't show it was supposed to be her? What's going on? That was a fuck up on the DNC's part. But it's now reached a point where the earnest question is, is there a cost not to do it? Is there a disappointment in a sense? Carter, you want to get it. I know you do.
Corey
8:48
do. The ones only people – you can only be disappointed by the ones you love, right? So I don't know. I think that she could probably move on from it. I do think it's funny that we just want – we want our municipal politicians to tell us what they think about Middle East politics. We want our artists to tell us who they're endorsing for president. I don't really see the need, but if she wants to do it, she should do it. Carter, thoughts?
Carter
9:10
Yeah, I mean, I think that there is
Carter
9:14
limited upside unless she's really worried about what the world is going to look like. And as someone who is actually the spokesperson,
Carter
9:23
spokesperson, if you will, for young women in the world right now, and I think that that's fair to say that she represents this. I
Corey
9:29
I think you were saying you were.
Carter
9:31
Yeah. No, I'm getting worried. No, she's the spokesperson for young women. I'm the spokesperson for just me. Okay.
Zain
9:39
Okay. No, sorry. Just me. We
Zain
9:41
were on a different page there. That's fine.
Carter
9:43
Yeah. Yeah. Nonetheless, I think that she doesn't need to do it because I think that there's a message that's implied. And
Carter
9:49
And to actually come out and say it might actually put her into a box. I agree with
Carter
9:57
with Corey. What do you mean that
Zain
9:57
that there's a message that's implied? it?
Carter
9:59
There's a message that's implied, I think, by the messages that she's been carrying to young women about who they are and how important they are. I think that that is an implied message to them that she supports anybody but Donald Trump.
Carter
10:15
But maybe an implied message isn't enough. Maybe she needs to get out there and make a bigger, broader statement. And I think that another another question that i would ask her if i was in the advisor position i would be asking uh do you think this is going to make a difference you
Carter
10:32
know will this move votes and if it won't then
Corey
10:38
well i suppose if you are looking at this as an existential election there is an all hands on deck argument to be made yeah where everybody says this is not the one to sit on the sidelines sidelines, you
Corey
10:50
you can think of all sorts of comps, use whatever horrible tragedy where a democracy fell that you want, take your preference, let it be Germany, let it be whatever. But I'm sure that in most of those cases, the people who sat on the sidelines who were opposed were probably pretty regretful they did so, especially if they have a voice and influence in money the way Taylor Swift does. So that is the obvious counter argument to all of this. This is just too important for her not to do it but
Corey
11:15
but there's there's something about that you know it's clearly still a calculation it's clearly some conversation that's going on in her in her monologue that she hasn't done it to date so if she's not feeling that existential threat i
Corey
11:30
don't know i go see my previous comments okay
Zain
11:32
okay i want to i want to keep it in the same category which is why the fuck do we still do this and dissect something else that wasn't implied, Stephen Carter.
Zain
11:45
He is back. He's now joining the liberals as
Zain
11:49
special economic advisor. Justin Trudeau announced today that throughout his extensive career, both in public service and private sector, Mark Carney's ideas, deep experience, and proven economic leadership have made a bedrock contribution to a better economic future, which is why Stephen Carter, he's the chair of the leader's task force on economic growth for the liberals. Corey, we said previously that Mark Carney needs
Zain
12:17
needs to shit or get off the pot.
Zain
12:21
This kind of seems like he's shitting on the floor.
Corey
12:25
Well, I mean, hey,
Corey
12:28
if you had told me he was already special economic advisor, i would have believed so
Zain
12:31
so it is applied okay see comments on the first uh topic this
Carter
12:38
this is the biggest non-story in the history of mankind let's
Zain
12:40
let's talk about this let's talk about this from the two
Zain
12:42
two and there's a reason i wanted to put in this category of why the fuck we do we still do this uh because corey corey is going exactly where i wanted to which is this is doing a couple of things number one this is formalizing something that many people had already thought had happened perhaps or was implied obvious it
Corey
12:59
it was occurring in the background background, obvious.
Zain
13:00
obvious. Exactly. So let's talk about it from that perspective, the strategy of giving it a title. And then Carter, I want to actually expand it, which is, is this good strategy for Carney? That in buying the liberal stock this low, associating yourself with the party this low, when let's just assume, we'll make one big assumption, your goal is to lead it and to be the next prime minister in some way, shape or form. Let's talk about that strategy as well. But Corey, let's start with the first one.
Zain
13:29
Why the fuck do we still do this? If things are already humming in the background, obvious, implied, suggested, alluded to, the formalization of it, explain this to me. Why the fuck do we still do this? And is it overwrought and unnecessary?
Corey
13:45
I mean, maybe it's the formalization to an extent. Maybe there was some ambiguity about that that they wanted to clear up. But I think the answer is just as likely, this is the time-honored tradition in politics of government of re-announcing, right? So you make the announcement, then you make the announcement, you made the announcement, then you make the announcement locally, then you give the status update, then you give them the name of the project, and then you move forward and so on. And you've gone and done this 30 times before the hospital was built. And this is probably the political advisor equivalent of it. So Mark Carney here, he's talking to the prime minister. Oh goodness. Now he's showing up at convention. He's saying things like, I'm going to do whatever I can to help the liberals to win. Again, see comments of, I sort of assumed he was already sort of economically advising based on those comments. And then you hear commentary that he's going to talk to caucus and blah, blah, blah, all the way along. So I think they just want to continually remind people of this, particularly at this moment before a by-election, and hope
Corey
14:43
hope that it gives additional jam. Like, did anybody think that he wasn't advising them economically, the liberals? No
Carter
14:49
No one thought that.
Carter
14:51
Yeah. No one thought that. Everybody already thought this was – this is an assumed position that he already had, and the announcement changed nothing. It is – Well, this is my question then. It is a giant non-announcement. Why do we do it? Because we're talking about it.
Carter
15:05
We're talking about a stain. That's why we do it.
Zain
15:08
Okay, so then let's break it down from the Carney aspect of this.
Zain
15:12
Associating yourself, reassociating, okay? Let's be generous to him. He bought the stock maybe a little bit higher. Perhaps now it's at its – I'm not saying it's at its floor, but it's perhaps a little bit lower. that
Zain
15:23
that Mark Carney entry
Zain
15:25
entry points that he has had historically, Carter,
Zain
15:28
Carter, what do you think of this one that he has chosen? The title being associated not with the PMO, but with the liberal party, the
Zain
15:36
the economic growth task force chair, and
Zain
15:40
and now. Those are the things I want to discuss. Liberal versus PMO, the area of focus, and the timing. I almost want to assess the Carney Varney strategy here of entry, because he's had many entry point possibilities over the last, I want to say two, but Carter, you can actually generously extend that to half decade with this institution and with this party, but he's chosen now. So I want some strategic assessment there. And Corey, maybe I'll start with you. Which one of these pieces do you want to pick up? Do you want to pick up liberal versus PMO? Do you want to talk about the title and the area of focus, or do you want to talk about the timing?
Corey
16:17
Yeah, let's close off the last and just say, This does have a real feeling of repeating the applause line because nobody applauded, right?
Corey
16:26
It's like, I got Mark Carney. Nobody says anything. Guys,
Corey
16:31
Mark Carney. Jeb Bush. Did I mention official title? But I mean, let's talk about the PMO one because I think that there's a couple of obvious reasons why you would go with the party. First and foremost, there's an election coming and you want him to give political advice. And so I think if you put them into the PMO, you're immediately inviting criticism that you're putting a political advisor. I mean, you're allowed to have advisors who are political in the prime minister's office, right? But point
Corey
16:59
point being, it might be seen as some sort of impropriety. The other thing is the PMO is
Corey
17:03
covered by rules. And so there'd be certain disclosures and ethics commissioner considerations and all of that. And why
Corey
17:10
why do it if you don't need to, especially when what you really want is that partisan political advice that you would get from outside the party. And does anybody outside of like the thinnest layer of wonks say, well, PMO would be more important than the Liberal Party in this particular case? It just doesn't make an awful lot of sense. And just to kind of finally close out that, or there's probably a million reasons, but I'll throw one more out. if
Corey
17:35
if you're national director yes and that's on the party side there
Corey
17:40
are party dynamics too and there are probably a lot of people in the party apparatus saying oh
Corey
17:45
oh shit is the sky falling and if you put somebody of mark carney's credibility and you know and gravita in the party that will have a stabilizing influence on your overall campaign infrastructure carter
Zain
17:55
carter let's let's cory started with it let's talk about the pmo versus the party so cory's given good analysis i want you to maybe give a bit of analysis if you want to add anything and then tell me if it's a a good idea by the leader of the Liberal Party, as well as Mark Carney, to join on the party side.
Carter
18:10
Well, it's a grand idea by Mark Carney. I think that the idea of joining the PMO and not being able to lobby the government for five years as a civil servant, because you were a civil servant working in a ministry, that would be a problem.
Zain
18:24
problem. You mean tied up on the back end? Oh,
Carter
18:26
Oh, yeah. I mean, it would be problematic because it's not like Mark Carney is going to stop giving advice to governments just because, you know, I mean, or lobbying or pushing for something or pushing for another thing, it
Carter
18:39
it would just create havoc, you know, and what does Mark Carney need? Like Mark Carney doesn't need the money. It's not like he's signing up for the bureaucratic salary. He's signing up because he wants to have influence. And however you structure the influence is really irrelevant as long as the influence is real. And I think that this is going to feel more like real influence to Mark Carney than than, you know, coming into the office every day with your with your lunch pail to the to the prime minister's office. is. I suspect this is also, Corey mentioned the idea that this is going to stabilize things at the party. I think that's true. I think that people will say, oh, thank goodness, there's still some adults running the shop. But I still don't think that this even comes close to replacing the Broadhurst bombshell from last week.
Zain
19:30
Corey, what do you think of the important
Zain
19:32
important but narrow focus economic
Zain
19:34
economic growth, right? Productivity, it's important. And I don't mean to say narrow in a disparaging way, but I'm also thinking about it from like a political advice perspective, right? It's almost like he's going to be a policy wonk thinking about policy for economic growth as someone who rather than a, let's just say a crass political advisor or a very sharp political sort of strategic advisor in that sense. What do you think of that area of focus for him as he thinks about his future positioning? It's obvious, but is that a good thing or a bad that thing?
Corey
20:07
Well, if you're the prime minister, of course, you want to frame it as an economic legend because you are weak on the economy. And so to dilute him and make him an overall policy advisor, that doesn't benefit you. You want to brand him in such a way you're constantly reminding people that he's got an economic focus, the economy is your focus, and you're pushing forward with that frame in mind. There's also the possibility, Zane, that he's not the only special advisor we're going to hear, and maybe there'll be additional ones coming down the road wrote as part of a strategy. It's just hard to know without knowing, but those would be the obvious reasons from the prime minister's perspective. If you're Mark Carney, can I tell you the most obvious reason you want to be the economic advisor?
Corey
20:48
Because you don't want to take the blame for the rest of the campaign.
Corey
20:52
if you go in and you say, hey, listen, I created some good economic messaging. I worked with him. I created all of this.
Corey
20:59
Shame it didn't work out, but obviously that stuff was all brilliant and you probably will actually have a strong hand in it as well so there'll be a bit more ownership there that's one thing but if you go in as hey mark carney's just to throw out an example that's not real but like chair of the platform committee he's writing the whole fucking platform and
Corey
21:17
and the liberals lose as expected how
Corey
21:19
how does that benefit you as mark carney at all well
Carter
21:23
well you do have the buy low sell high strategy that mark carney's He's obviously an expert, and you can't buy any lower, Zane, than where we are right now. So getting in and maybe things work out, you look like a genius, and if not, you pack up your horse and go back to Calgary.
Carter
21:39
Calgary. Do you genuinely
Zain
21:44
that this is a good time to get in, Carter? If you're an ambitious person who may want to take over this party, is
Zain
21:53
is this actually a good time to get in?
Carter
21:57
If he wants to be the leader of the party, he has to get closer to the party. And the only other place closer than being an economic advisor to the prime minister in the party would be to be a member of parliament. And I'm quite certain that Mark Carney doesn't want to run as a member of parliament right now. He wants to get as close as he can so that when the leadership occurs, and let's be honest, the leadership is going to occur sooner than later, that he can say, you know, I've been working with the prime minister, I've got connections to this party, they run deep, and I'm prepared to serve. That's why I served as Justin Trudeau's economic advisor in 2024.
Zain
22:37
Corey, is this actually like a good strategic time to get in?
Corey
22:43
Well, you can make the case it is, because in the mind of most Canadians, the Liberals have have already lost right it's just a question of when the election occurs so he's jumping in at a point where he can still look like a good soldier to steven's point he can make those connections to the party he is an advisor and that position allows him to go and talk to an awful lot of people from coast to coast to coast but you're not going to wear the loss like the loss is expected so the the worst thing that can happen is the expected thing the best thing that can happen is a miracle and um you know he is he's kind of the economic jesus right he's bigger than economic jesus and that's why uh you know he's of such value to uh justin trudeau and um and
Corey
23:25
and that would be like a great thing you'd be able to point to and get credit for if you managed to win the election yeah
Zain
23:31
you seem a little surprised by our answers i
Corey
23:36
ask what your thoughts are on this i think that's no i
Zain
23:39
i don't know i have no thoughts my thoughts will be embedded into the question, and you
Zain
23:46
you can hear them. Yeah.
Corey
23:48
For our listening audience, Zane just has incredulous looks, as Stephen and I have been saying. Well, you guys are wrong. I guess
Zain
23:54
guess what I'm trying to say is you guys are wrong all around. This is the worst time to get in.
Corey
23:59
Would you like to frame that as a question? No,
Corey
24:01
I would not like to frame that as a question.
Zain
24:02
question. Carter, should Mark Carney have run in 2014 when when a 20-page strategy document was available for him to execute his wishes.
Corey
24:12
That was a good strategy.
Corey
24:14
It wasn't 14, though, but yes. It
Carter
24:16
It was 14, 15. It was 14, 15.
Carter
24:19
14, 15. We wrote it at 14. No, no, no, no, no. It was 12, 13. It was 12, 13.
Zain
24:23
13. 12, 13. That's right. Damn
Zain
24:25
Damn it. Should he have done it 12 years ago?
Carter
24:27
Oh, yeah. He should have done it. That was a great document. Was that Pete Carney?
Zain
24:33
I'm just going to repeat what I say?
Carter
24:35
I'm going to repeat what you say.
Zain
24:36
say. Let's move it on to our next segment. Corey Horgan, let's move it on. We have to move it on. If it works for you, it has to work for me, right? Guys, I want to talk about something that's happening on the prairies. This is really fascinating to me. Okay. In some ways, it is fascinating. In other ways, it might be a very simple, easy segment, but it is worthy of discussing. Saskatchewan is heading to the polls, and they're going to be heading to the polls at the end of October. Actually, in fact, they've got something they've called Voting Week, which I think is interesting. They're actually collapsing advanced vote with a week where you get to end up voting starting on, I believe, a week before Election Day or six days before Election Day and you get to vote for the whole week. That's neither here nor there. They're going to the polls. SAS party is currently in government, Carter. The NDP seemed to be surging a bit. The
Zain
25:21
The NDP, however, are announcing policies in advance of the election that
Zain
25:27
that almost mimic entirely the successful campaign of Wab Kanu. According to a new report, the campaign is announcing temporarily ditching the provincial gas tax, launching a skilled nutrition program, providing rebates for households to buy security equipment and go after the unexplained wealth of organized crime. It sounds familiar because it is. It's the pre-announcement package that was suggested by Wab Kanu and the NDP that was a successful campaign against the PCs to remind folks in Manitoba. I
Zain
26:01
I find this really interesting. This
Zain
26:03
This is two prairie provinces, a year or so removed, if I'm not mistaken on my timing, and one seeing a successful playbook and saying, why can't it work for us? Carter, is this smart? Is this strategic? Or is this a pathway that should be reconsidered by the Saskatchewan NDP? Now, I'm not sure how much more is going to mimic in copy, but I find at least this thus far is
Zain
26:30
is really interesting to me and perhaps very strategic. Do you agree?
Carter
26:34
No, I mean, I think that it's really easy to try and copy a campaign that happens before. This is one of the things that we've said many times is that most campaigns are the campaign that happened previous, right? Most people are running the previous playbook. They're They're not generally this, you
Carter
26:53
explicit about it, but, you know, oftentimes we are running the election previous is playbook and you lose when you do that because you can't just transport that which worked in Manitoba a year and a half ago into Saskatchewan and expect that it's going to work in the exact same fashion. You know, I like being, I like it when someone copies my stuff, you know, it's flattering, but it's not going to work. And I suspect that when, you know, the campaign team that's working with the NDP in Saskatchewan, they're just, they're grasping at straws, trying to figure out a way to take down this relatively popular Scott Moe government.
Zain
27:34
Corey, what do you think? The conventional wisdom on this has always been, you do the previous playbook, even if it's from a different jurisdiction, you find yourself in a trap because you're taken from before rather than, you know, tuning your senses and your strategy to what's in front front of you right now. That
Zain
27:50
That being said, we don't know what else the SASC NDP are going to do. But thus far from what you've seen starting early in the suite of policies I've announced or kind of mentioned to you, what
Zain
27:59
what do you think? Strategic? Smart?
Corey
28:04
Impossible to say with the data we have. But let me just say this, just to maybe take a bit of a contrary view from Stephen. I generally feel myself leaning a little bit more towards where Stephen is like naturally but I'll say this we don't know what their polling says we don't know if these issues also happen to be the top issues in Saskatchewan but part of the reason why you want to be very careful about just taking something off the shelf a winning campaign from next door or whatnot is because those were answers to different questions and you've got to be thinking about the questions in your own jurisdiction and the odds of you coming to the same answers on different questions is it's
Corey
28:40
it's kind of low right and where there's usually things that it to be grabbed. They're not policy. They tend to be the tactics, the approaches, the construction of your campaign, where you can say, hey, that's interesting. That's innovative. Now it won't be innovative here, but we can do it here and we can take that with us. To
Corey
28:57
To actually take policy is probably the area that's least productive, but it's not like it doesn't ever work. Look how many jurisdictions across North America have had progressive politicians run on a $15 minimum minimum wage. My God, we do it here. We do it in the United States. That's not even the same amount of money between those two jurisdictions, right? So I'm not saying it can't work, but I do think that you need to be a little bit careful.
Corey
29:22
You asked if it was smart. You asked if it was strategic. You asked if it should be reconsidered. I think the answer is yes and no to all of those, except the end. Certainly reconsider. Consider it in the context of your jurisdiction.
Zain
29:34
Carter, if you were given this
Zain
29:36
this as a possibility to say there's something successful next door
Zain
29:40
that has happened. Your
Zain
29:41
Your population is different. The questions being asked are different, but
Zain
29:46
but these policies on their own are popular.
Zain
29:49
Our strategic aim is
Zain
29:53
We're going to be typecast as the NDP.
Zain
29:56
As soon as the writ drops, they're going to call us the NDP and they're going to have the classic NDP attack. If we can be tough on crime, if we can promise not to hike taxes.
Zain
30:06
Isn't that the same situation that the Manitoba NDP had to kind of overcome? Isn't that the perennial NDP problem in some ways? Isn't this smart to do? If that case were being made to you,
Zain
30:19
what would your response be?
Carter
30:22
I think that it's all in the language too, right? You can do similar ideas, but rephrase it in the language of the local jurisdiction. I've been involved with multiple campaigns, even simultaneously in jurisdictions, and you don't want to necessarily take the same, just port the same ideas with the same language from
Carter
30:40
from one jurisdiction to the next. You have to customize the language so that it sounds authentic to the user. I think that that's where the problem lies between this Saskatchewan and Manitoba. It feels too close. It feels like it's just the whole idea being- What
Zain
30:57
do you mean? It feels like timing-wise, like just when and what, or just like- Language
Carter
31:02
this is the same. It's too easily identifiable as the same.
Carter
31:06
And I think that if you were to- But do you think voters care, Carter? Do you think- Yeah, I do. You think they do? I do, because I think voters are looking for authenticity. If I found out
Zain
31:14
out as a voter who is considering the NDP that this is what Manitoba got- No,
Zain
31:19
no, no. What Manitoba got from there. It almost sounds like I'm tilting the question, but I'm curious. You think I would actually care that this was lifted from next door as part of a successful campaign? Not
Carter
31:30
Not if you were already considering the NDP, but the people considering the NDP in the provinces of Saskatchewan right now is a relatively small number,
Carter
31:37
right? I think that you have to recognize you're trying to win an election.
Carter
31:40
So you need some language that's going to appeal across from the NDP. And I think that this is something that an imported policy manual from Manitoba is going to push people in Saskatchewan back, not forward. word.
Zain
31:55
Corey, they are expecting to have the tightest election in years in Saskatchewan. The NDP are making gains here. I think that's important to understand, at least from some recent polling that we see.
Corey
32:06
But your thoughts on what Carter's just said here?
Corey
32:08
Well, sir, first some thoughts on your thoughts. There are basically only two pollsters active regularly in Saskatchewan. And one of them has shown, I think, the NDP in the lead once. But Angus Reid, which is probably one of the more active pollsters over time, has never shown the NDP in the lead. It's certainly a tightening from what, 25 points Saskatchewan party lead to 10, you know, but that's still a blowout in most jurisdictions. So TBD, and of course, there's also going to be internal polling and Saskatchewan is a pretty small place. Like there's not a lot of polling that goes on there,
Carter
32:39
there, by and large. It's hard to poll. Hard to poll. A couple million
Corey
32:42
million people overall, if I'm not mistaken. The data that we do have doesn't actually suggest like horse
Corey
32:47
horse race yet. It just shows a closer race than ever. But I think this is actually the bigger point that I want to make here. So when you think about where those policies land and the context in which they land, the Manitoba NDP led in every public opinion poll from 2021 on.
Zain
33:05
election and ultimately winning.
Corey
33:07
years. There were a couple of outliers, but the Manitoba NDP were expected to win the election going into the election. So what was their interest? Well, their interest was to shore up a lead, to make sure that they had something that was defending against the rightward flank and the attacks that the conservatives were going to make against them that were otherwise disqualifying on things like crime, on things like affordability. So they create a bundle of things that say, we're not going to give you an excuse to just run back to the PCs and say, yeah, but I'm a little nervous about these guys. That's
Corey
33:39
That's a very different situation than being, let's just say for fun and let's just give the charity to the NDP five
Corey
33:45
five points back. back because
Corey
33:46
because five points back mean that all the saskatchewan party needs to do is maintain the status quo and for the ndp to then just use what i would call a bunch of shield issues and say you know people don't vote ndp because they're looking for the party that's great on affordability and tough on crime that's just not a reality they vote ndp when they want great schools and great hospitals and they want improvement to those social services and there is an audience for that right yes yes but if
Corey
34:13
if you were trying to gain ground by bringing in some of those i'm just i'm less convinced it's likely to be the thing i'm not saying it can't work and perhaps they're polling to go back to where i started says these people are available to you if you can just get past their hang-ups on these things which happen to be the same things at manitoba well then maybe it's a great strategy but very
Corey
34:33
very different situations very different places and when you've got that that kind of ground to make up, my gut says, you don't run against brand, you run with brand and you try to define the question to be about your brand. Like, does the NDP in Saskatchewan really win if everyone's talking about affordability the whole time?
Zain
34:49
Yeah, it's an interesting question. And of course, what else we, the other part of the equation that we don't know is what else are they going to announce, right? Are they doing the defensive posture first or the, you know?
Corey
34:59
And, you know, and we saw that in Alberta, right? We saw Danielle Smith before the election, talk a lot about healthcare. This
Zain
35:05
This is increasingly more common, and maybe I'm noticing it more, but are you guys fans of the strategic, let's get all the shield shit out first, or the stuff that we're going to be killed on during the election, whether that's a three-week vote week election like Saskatchewan has, or the classic 28 day with an advanced vote in between, whatever the configuration of the looks like. Are you guys fans of what is now emerging as conventional thought of You know, do all your defensive shit early, just before the election, 60 days, 55 days, whatever we're looking at here.
Zain
35:40
And get that out, get its own media cycle, even put dollars behind it. And then you focus on defining as soon as the pistol goes on the 28-day cycle. Corey, you first and then Carter. So
Corey
35:52
So I am because I think that this is what I would call filling the larder, right? Like you've got an answer to it. This is not something you're necessarily going to lead with during the campaign, but you're providing an answer that people can use when they're on the door and somebody says, well, I would vote for you, but for X, right? right? You don't want to bring those things with 10 days left in the writ period. And then you spend the time when everybody's focusing the most during the writ talking about the things that you want to talk about. And if somebody tries to pull one of your candidates on the door or one of your volunteers onto those issues, well, you've got an answer for it. Like you've got your shields ready to go on it and you're not polluting the time where you're trying to command the narrative with things on which you're weak. So I generally kind of like it. I don't even think you need to wait to 50 60 days i think if you've got an answer on an issue you don't want to talk about get it out as soon as possible so it's readily available and you're not you're not kind of polluting your schedule with it carter
Zain
36:46
carter did you have to also look up what a larder is
Carter
36:48
yeah i did it took some time and what and what is it and
Zain
36:51
and if you've got
Carter
36:52
got reminded reminded me when i was young and i used to go to the larder for the butter i
Zain
36:56
i thought it spelled with a t alley larder that's not who it is though that's i don't think we're going to the alley larder i don't think that's what it's what the deck uh he means pantry for for the uneducated uneducated uninitiated uh we use pantry because we're not we're not idiots like cory we're
Corey
37:10
we're not larder sounds better
Zain
37:12
it sounds worse i
Corey
37:13
i mean i think it sounds are
Zain
37:14
are you a fan of the get the shit out of the way strategy which is now starting to become conventional
Zain
37:19
conventional wisdom like i i wanted
Carter
37:21
wanted to fight cory i wanted to be i wanted to say cory is wrong but i'm a big fan of inoculation right The idea of inoculating against that, which is going to come and sting you later. If you're inoculated against it, then you don't have to worry about it.
Carter
37:36
Those things just give
Corey
37:37
give you autism, man.
Carter
37:38
Yeah, they give you, I mean, whatever. Like we don't all have it. But this is what the bright
Carter
37:48
bright minds have come up with. Now, I also think that sometimes you can just ignore and sometimes you don't have to address the negatives. But if the negative you feel is strong enough and it's going to bite you, then you're best to inoculate.
Zain
38:01
Corey, talk to me about this. Help me create a bit of a guide on the political act of – I'm not going to call it lifting, but the political act of emulation.
Zain
38:12
You guys are already putting a few ground rules out there. Help me formalize some of these ground rules. Do you want to start with one for me and then Carter, I'll go to you and we'll do a bit of a back and forth. What is one of the Corey Hogan ground rules of when and how you should politically emulate? In this case, the idea was policy, but it could also be execution and timing and other things. But give me your first rule, and then Carter, I'll ask you for yours, and we'll try to create a bit of a list here for folks. Yeah,
Corey
38:39
Yeah, the sin is not plagiarism. The sin is being unaware of your context, right? So I don't think like, oh, you shouldn't steal from a jurisdiction because somebody else has already done that. There's no points for originality here. Where I think you have to be careful is just making sure, as I've already said, that the answer answers
Corey
38:57
answers your question. It's not just like kind of some indiscriminate stuff. Although
Zain
39:01
Although I agree with the first part, but there was almost a side comment you made that I think Stephen Carter would take issue with. Carter, are there points for originality? Because I think your entire point was that people care if you plagiarize. us
Carter
39:18
people care if you plagiarize if you if you just if it's
Carter
39:21
it's the same thing when you're plagiarizing your university paper if
Carter
39:25
if you're if you're plagiarizing your university paper and using the cut paste function and that's
Carter
39:31
then it's plagiarism if you look at it and rewrite it you
Carter
39:35
you know it's not really if it's rewritten in your own words and rewritten in your own language is it really plagiarism is it really i mean yeah so it's
Carter
39:45
not really and so i think that it comes down to context um if you're rewriting it if you're making it your own uh
Carter
39:52
uh and and when i say making it your own i mean making
Carter
39:57
speak directly to your audience that's really that's
Carter
40:00
that's really the most important thing and for those students that are listening that was was academic advice okay you can take that you that
Zain
40:06
that was you can you can take that to the dean's office i'm sure you can take that to the dean's office of any major institution except and i and i and i have got this on good authority royal roads yeah
Zain
40:17
yeah that is that is not a place that people go
Zain
40:20
there still i don't think so i think we i think we i think we what
Corey
40:25
what do we what do we guys come
Corey
40:26
come on he's so uncomfortable be good to the good people of royal roads here oh
Carter
40:29
oh yeah person left
Carter
40:32
we'll be good cory has relationships we have to be nice okay carter
Zain
40:34
carter so you pretty much uh repeated what cory said so i'm going to give you another shot at this uh because he said the sin is not plagiarism it's being unaware of the context and your point was be aware of the context so i'm going to give you another crack at this what's what's the stephen carter rule on on political emulation that you'd want to you'd want to put on the on this list still
Carter
40:53
still the tactic not not the strategy.
Carter
40:56
The tactics are absolutely something you can emulate. We saw this one campaign. They did some really interesting things with the bus and where the bus went and how the bus, you know, they did a really interesting tour. You know, they did a top of the province to the bottom of the province tactical decision. That's all fascinating, but don't steal the strategy strategy is something that has to be unique to the individual campaign so steal the tactic not the strategy there you go zane write that down that's fucking genius give
Zain
41:31
give me the uh give me the the rare um time
Zain
41:35
time where you can steal the strategy what are the conditions for stealing there
Carter
41:38
there are no conditions where you can never steal the
Carter
41:41
really strategy even if you even if
Corey
41:42
if you had these same inputs and you came to the same conclusions you do the work you
Corey
41:47
you have never Never steal the strategy. That's
Zain
41:49
That's good. Never steal the strategy. Corey, you've said the same thing Carter just said. So I'm going to give you another shot at it. What would you want
Zain
41:56
want to just add to that?
Corey
42:00
What do I want to add to that? Okay. I don't know. Do we need – It's pretty good. These are
Zain
42:05
are pretty good, but they're redundant. I feel like you guys have two roles that you're trying to really extend the time of this podcast. This feels like
Carter
42:12
like it's the host's fault. How
Zain
42:14
How many minutes have we done? I'm just looking at the clock.
Zain
42:17
Okay. I got a 6 a.m. flight and I'm just looking at the clock, okay?
Zain
42:20
fair. You want to talk about where I'm going? It doesn't matter.
Corey
42:22
No, nobody's of interest unless you're willing to give your home address and your- And
Zain
42:29
Yeah, and I'm not traveling, Flair, so it's fine. Do you have anything else for me, Corey? These are pretty good, actually. Because to be clear, your rules aren't don't do it. Your rules aren't, you know, it's about being strategic. I like the tactic point. I like being aware of the context. Is there anything else you want to add to this for the fine folks or wherever they might might be, when they look at certain things. And there's different places coming up for election, right? Like you look at how folks, you know, BC is already underway, but Ontario and Alberta and other places, they'll kind of see what succeeds. And
Zain
42:57
And there's always an, and be like, fuck, that worked. Was it too long ago? Like maybe, maybe throw me around timing. Was timing like around how long it happened? Is that a part of it? Like, give me a sense of that. Well,
Corey
43:08
Well, I mean, in some ways, it's just an extension, but you should feel free and you you should encourage yourself to go out and see what has worked in different jurisdictions that are maybe facing some of the same problems. So when you're writing that strategy,
Corey
43:22
you're not the first jurisdiction to have this problem. Go see how it has been managed in other jurisdictions and see if there's anything that you can learn from it.
Carter
43:28
And don't just look back one election, right?
Carter
43:31
right? I think that it's really important to be a student of elections and say, okay, well, what were the defining functions of the 1971 election? What What were the defining functions of Klein's
Carter
43:43
Klein's 1993 romp? How did Getty win? What were the interesting elements of all of these different things? What bothers me about this thievery that Saskatchewan is doing with Manitoba is it's just one election cycle.
Carter
44:00
If you're going to go back, you can go back. With the Alison Redford campaign, we stole a tremendous amount from the 1967 Progressive Conservatives.
Zain
44:10
Well, so here's a natural question for me extending from that, which is, where do you study this? Where did you find it? Is there like, give me your resources, Carter, like, how
Zain
44:19
how are you? Obviously, you were studying, obviously, we're studying what happened in the outcomes. But beyond that, like, where are you finding some of the depth of the strategies and the tactics used? Like, where's any of that documented?
Carter
44:30
We went to the archives at the lembo got some really interesting stuff out of the archives we got uh the provincial party uh letter that uh that uh was written by laheed uh that defined the party and and defined uh where the principles and the uh uh
Carter
44:52
uh you know what their principles were going to be and what they were going to focus on and why they were doing what they were doing it's actually it could read like the ndp right now it was so uh
Zain
45:02
mean like the modern day prairie ndp that we're seeing across yeah
Carter
45:05
yeah yeah interesting it was fascinating and and to see kind of just how uh
Carter
45:11
uh how they phrased things we
Carter
45:13
we stole a lot of that phrasing and
Zain
45:16
like even language and like well
Carter
45:19
well especially the language i just thought it gave us how did you just gave us the ability to be more left-wing
Carter
45:24
and still represent the quote-unquote progressive conservatives well
Zain
45:27
well this is so my question too naturally and of course you may have had questions for carter on this as well because i don't think we've ever talked about this so this is interesting to me how did you justify like the
Zain
45:37
the 1967 language for the 2012 context like
Carter
45:41
changed all the language do you remember that time i said you know what you need to do is you take the source material and then you just write it out in your own language that's what we did we
Carter
45:50
we took the source material we wrote it out in our own language so that it it was understandable and and made sense in the modern context yeah yeah yeah and it was fantastic like we learned so much from that where
Zain
46:01
where else would you go where else like if i'm a student if i want to legitimately today make a commitment to be a student of this stuff beyond what the horse race was and who won their seat in calgary cross but where
Carter
46:12
where else john lashinger's written a great book you've got uh some great stuff that uh that you know like there's so many books on campaigns you just have to go past the section that is dealing with the 19 or with the 2000s right and you go back to the 1970s there's some really interesting books that i'm just trying looking around here see
Carter
46:32
see if i've got some of them handy but they're they're the
Carter
46:35
the the the source material is endless because every one of us has written a book at some point right
Carter
46:42
right like you've got the orange wave that you know levine wrote that's interesting but it you know it's too close you You got to look back to these books that were written in the 1970s, 1980s. They've got some fascinating things that you can steal.
Zain
46:59
that your shock collar? What's going on? Jesus. You're breaching your probation? What's up?
Carter
47:04
Heather's pissed and I just got a little shock.
Carter
47:08
So I don't know what's going on in the house, but we should
Carter
47:11
should wrap soon. I
Zain
47:12
I don't know what sort of relationship,
Zain
47:15
relationship, Carter, you have. Okay, anyway, that's
Zain
47:18
that's all I'm going to say. Corey, I was going to make it a lot more graphic, but I'm not going to. Corey, where would you go to be a student of politics? To be a student not just of politics, that's just too broad. Where would you go to be a student of elections, election tactics, election strategies, election messaging, to Carter's point around the Glenbow? Thoughts before we wrap it up here? No,
Corey
47:38
No, I think that you would surprise yourself as a modern day reader of politics, how modern things from even the 50s and 60s or before can read, especially in a rhetorical sense. So by all means, go through and read it. There's some great turns of phrase. It's interesting to see that many of the same problems are fairly perennial. there are lots
Corey
48:00
lots of issues that are accordion where people
Corey
48:02
people go from centralized to you know like the government can solve your problems to government's not the solution to the problems on you know both and left and right of the spectrum so identify
Corey
48:12
identify probably the elections that you think are most likely and then go go get a book if you like the book go read some you
Corey
48:19
know academic literature on it go talk to somebody if they were alive if it was recently enough like there's there's lots of of ways you can get into
Corey
48:26
I think many of our listeners probably are voracious readers of political biographies and the like. That's good. And maybe you'll be sitting there and saying, geez, I remember there was this really great tactic done by Louis Saint Laurent that I just can't quite remember, but let me go grab that book off. Just see if you're inspired. It's not that hard. And also, I would say, as much as Carter's talking about find the distance chronologically, temporally. You can also find the distance geographically. If you're familiar with another region or if you have a passion for say, Germany
Corey
49:00
Germany or I mean, Russia doesn't really have elections, so poor choice there. But Japan or whatever it may be, go and see what they're up to too. You'll find some interesting stuff. I'll
Zain
49:11
I'll add to that, especially if you're looking at campaigns in the 90s and 80s, obviously the 2000s with this piece of advice, you'll be be surprised how many people will respond to a cold email asking them about their work.
Corey
49:26
like I think you'll be very surprised.
Zain
49:28
topic is themselves and
Zain
49:31
and it is especially the work that they're known for. Carter, how many – what's
Zain
49:36
what's your hit rate? Is it 100
Carter
49:37
100%? Is your hit rate 100%? If you
Zain
49:40
you email Stephen Carter the hit rate and talk Wax Poetic, about his greatest achievement in life, which was the 2010 Nahed Nenshi campaign, which is what he wants to be known for. He will respond, which he'll be responding to every single email. He will respond to every single email that you send him. That's the one that he is known for and will forever be linked at the hip.
Carter
50:01
Oh, God. Stephen Carter,
Zain
50:01
Carter, you good? Let's move it on to our under and our lightning round. Stephen Carter, are you in or are you out overall from Mark Carney's perspective for
Zain
50:09
for taking this gig? If you're strategizing, if you're looking at this, I
Zain
50:13
I got your guys' analysis. I got a bit of like strategic, but overall, is this – are you in or are you out on Mark Carney joining the liberals?
Carter
50:21
Listen, I was all in and then I heard your dislike
Carter
50:24
dislike of our answers and now I'm out. Okay,
Zain
50:27
Okay, sounds good. You're extremely fickle, which makes a lot of sense. Corey, are you in or out on Mr. Carney?
Corey
50:34
Well, I was out and then I heard Stephen say that he was out, so I'm in. Okay,
Zain
50:38
Okay, fantastic. Corey, overrated or underrated new reporting from the Globe and Mail saying the Liberals are losing five chiefs of staff in recent order from key ministries. They've got 38 ministries, so it's five of 38. It's not a big deal, one could say, but you could also say, well, it's been a shitty little 36, 48, 72 hours plus for the Liberals from a staff perspective and a turnover perspective. perspective, overrated or underrated this new reporting coming up from Fife and the Globe and Mail?
Corey
51:12
geez, well, I think what he's implying overrated for that. It's not talking about an organization and freefall, but I do think that it might be underrated in that it does tell us a different story, which is probably at least some pressure was, hey, if you're not going to be here, maybe this is the time to get off the bus. And if you are going to be here, here's what it's going to look like for the next bit. Enjoy the next year. You're not taking vacation. You'll You'll take all your vacation as the campaign comes forward, whatever it may be, right? And I do generally feel when you start to see these moves, that's when it's getting real serious election time.
Corey
51:45
It is because you just can't bail on the campaign with weeks to go. And I would also say that those chiefs have been through a lot in the past year.
Corey
51:57
and if they're looking
Corey
51:58
looking for jobs this might be a good time to go look for them before every liberal chief of staff is looking for one right
Zain
52:03
right you you kind of get ahead of the curve and
Zain
52:06
and in the reporting kind of says that none of these folks really have anything lined up just yet yeah
Corey
52:11
yeah well look i'll tell you they
Corey
52:13
they there might not be water around people's ankles but these people have determined that the ship is
Corey
52:18
is and i don't mean going down as even that the liberals are losing but like But something is happening and it's a sign that something is happening and a very strong one when you see moves en masse like this. Carter, overrated
Zain
52:28
overrated or underrated that
Zain
52:31
that this reporting from Fife that five chiefs are moving on from the Trudeau government? I
Carter
52:34
I think it's overrated. I think that the spin on the ball is that everything's falling apart. Jeremy Brodhurst left and look, these five chiefs of staff have left and it's a little bit too much spin on the ball.
Corey
52:47
What do you think the turnover is for chiefs of staff in any given year.
Carter
52:51
I'd say 20%. Yeah,
Corey
52:52
Yeah, I would say maybe even higher. So I just five out of 38. That's not even that, right? Yeah.
Zain
53:00
Carter, final question to you. Kamala
Zain
53:04
Donald Trump, tomorrow night,
Zain
53:06
give some advice to Kamala Harris that no other political strategist would give her. Good advice, Not bullshit, but good advice that no other strategist that you think would
Zain
53:20
would be giving her right now.
Zain
53:22
What would it be, Stephen Carter?
Carter
53:27
Make sure that the breathing is accurate and that the breathing supports the voice because you cannot have tremors in the voice when you're dealing with Donald Trump.
Zain
53:37
That is an interesting piece of advice.
Zain
53:43
I'm Donald Trump some advice that no one else will be giving him tomorrow, either
Zain
53:49
either because they're too afraid to give it to him, or they don't think it's necessary, or they don't think it's good advice, but you do.
Zain
53:55
And you're giving that advice to Donald Trump right now.
Zain
54:02
That was good breath
Zain
54:03
breath work. Thank you. Yeah, for sure.
Corey
54:05
See, I was waiting to give advice to Kamala Harris. I know you were, but why would I make it easy for you? fucked me up badly on that one the advice for donald trump i guess is no you
Corey
54:15
don't have to guess
Zain
54:16
we can wait we can just watch you think remember
Corey
54:18
remember people can see you they can't hear you but they can see you and that presents an interesting risk for you as somebody who's being identified as maybe maybe old and and suffering from the same geriatric accusations that joe biden was because if i were kamala harris and
Corey
54:36
and you were trying to talk over me but america couldn't hear it i
Corey
54:39
would be like i'm sorry donald what was that could you speak up could
Corey
54:42
could you speak up donald because they can see your lips moving and
Corey
54:45
and she can just act like maybe you can't get the voice out see
Corey
54:49
see i tried to get the camel advice into the donald trump frame that's good that
Zain
54:54
anything else to add no
Carter
54:58
i'm all happy and this was a really fun episode we're
Zain
55:01
we're gonna leave it there that's a wrap
Zain
55:01
episode 1823 of the strategist my name is zane belchie with me as always cory hogan steven carter and we'll see you next time Captioned