Transcript
Corey
0:00
So now we're recording. Okay, so what do you want me
Zain
0:03
You want me to download Twitter?
Corey
0:03
Twitter? Check out the strategist pod
Corey
0:07
going to be Carter
Corey
0:08
Carter nudes? Is that what I'm waiting for?
Carter
0:09
Yeah, that's what you're looking for.
Zain
0:10
for. Okay, so I can condone this. I can condone what you've put up right now.
Corey
0:18
know, we had a meeting of the board, though. And
Carter
0:20
And the board met.
Corey
0:21
We had a few votes. Yeah, there
Carter
0:22
there were votes taken.
Zain
0:25
crossword, not a terrible response. spots as
Zain
0:29
a as a preferential voting ballot this
Zain
0:32
could get you in some trouble
Carter
0:33
trouble am i that he made the i and the z not look like a one and a two how pissed off what
Corey
0:39
what they're not mine it came from the discord oh it came from the discord yeah we
Corey
0:44
we crowdsource oh sweet crowdsource
Zain
0:46
crowdsource baby you're you're you're not taking any any of this credit is what i'm hearing you no
Corey
0:50
no i do want the blame though and all of the upset that you feel i want it to come right
Corey
0:55
right do you want
Zain
0:56
want do you want this to to be the only episode where we don't do the standard intro do you want that as well i'll
Corey
1:00
i'll just i'll add it in post how but right here like
Zain
1:03
like at the one minute how you won't even have me saying this is episode 1806 my name is zane belger with me as always cory hogan steven carter you won't have that like
Zain
1:12
like you won't have that you're
Corey
1:12
you're right it's a it's actually a great point you know we might just need to have
Corey
1:18
have this be the one episode where that doesn't get said i suppose you carter i am back uh
Corey
1:22
uh from washington dc i were you
Zain
1:24
gone i did the patreon nobody
Corey
1:25
nobody knew you were i did
Zain
1:25
did the patreon tour as you know i am hitting up oh yeah oh yeah we
Corey
1:28
we talked about that that's
Zain
1:30
that's right so anywhere here's here's where the patreon tour is anywhere where we have a single subscriber i will go to so
Zain
1:36
so cory what's next on the list we had a great time josh and i expenses are coming oh my good pal josh nice friend of the pod but more importantly friend friend of mine friend of friend of person friend of acquaintance of zane friend of man yeah
Zain
1:51
friend of man josh who just just goes by josh because his last name do we even know how to pronounce it we don't uh not really close starts with how close we are um cory i have visited there what is next where else do we have a single listener and this is worldwide you know you could be you could be in malaysia as our single listener i i will come there and in the strategist patreon we'll pay for it we
Carter
2:15
we actually chart quite regularly in malaysia so i think we have more than one listener in malaysia i think
Zain
2:20
think we do well Well, in Malaysia, too. I feel like that was a poor example on my part. I should have chosen a country that probably has less of a desire to hear from three white dudes. Corey, where would that be? Do we do well in India? We chart okay
Zain
2:36
in Oman every now
Zain
2:37
We chart okay in Oman. Oh, interesting. Okay. Okay.
Corey
2:43
I would guess me. Okay. I
Zain
2:46
I feel like that's right.
Corey
2:47
right. It's just a guess. I feel like that's right. I feel like that is absolutely right. right um i kind of assume most of our charting is is because of me if i'm going to be honest
Corey
2:55
you know i don't want to diminish your contributions that's
Carter
2:59
i uh always assumed it was me it's
Carter
3:01
it's pretty up to you know what we can be agreed upon it's not we can't agree on
Corey
3:06
on we can we can agree on that it's
Corey
3:08
it's good we can it's
Zain
3:09
zane do you agree i don't agree i have no idea what you're talking about i've just been i've been browsing twitter that vote we took it was a meeting of the board a majority of the board as you know i am a board member and i do not approve how you have constructed your alberta ndp ballot or how the discord has and i and i cannot approve it i
Zain
3:26
can't approve it i
Corey
3:27
i gotta tell you something though okay two
Corey
3:29
two-thirds of the board's okay with it that's fine who
Zain
3:31
who gets a two
Carter
3:32
two-third 66 a super majority okay
Zain
3:34
okay let's move it on to our first segment carter as you know you have you've been excited to move on to this first segment for a long time you had very little to add to the front end um minimal content uh limited limited contributions, I could see you were getting not just bored, but you were getting insecure about your position on the podcast. So I'm happy to move this on to our first segment, Carter, the joy of giving. Yeah, Stephen Carter, here's the thing.
Zain
3:58
You for a long time have said that politics is all about giving goodies to people, what you can give them, right? Whether it be a tax break, whether it be a new service, whether it's micro-targeted, Carter, to the the campaign to the specific constituency or riding. We'll give you a community hall, whatever you need. We're going to give you shit. Well, Carter, are we turning a corner? Have we actually too simplistically said that that's what politics is about in election season? Because Rishi Sunak, Carter, will introduce mandatory national service for those 18 and older if he wins the election on July 4th. This is comprising of community participation, potential military service, volunteering your time, not getting from the government, but giving back to your country. Carter, have we got it wrong the whole time as strategists that this is all about giving to people rather than receiving from them in an election season?
Carter
4:57
Well, I think that Rishi Sunak stands probably as the greatest campaigner of our time. time uh and as as one of the greatest campaigners of our time i am uh open to rewriting the rule book and saying you know what it is what you take from the electorate that is the most important thing and if you can take an 18 year old's first years of adulthood uh well first of all i'm i'm for it uh i'm for it because i'm in my 50s and no one's going to come after me and ask me for my for a year of my time. So it feels pretty great. I'm actually really interested to see the cynical nature of this. Will older people say, yeah, that sounds great. And younger people who weren't going to vote for the Tories anyway, just go running away from Rishi Sunak as fast as humanly possible. This does, though, fit into one of our categories of giving someone something.
Carter
5:49
When you give someone the gift of taking away from someone else, it does pull very well.
Carter
5:54
If you, you, for example, give the gift of taking from the rich, people
Carter
5:58
people do like that. If you give the gift of taking from corporations, people like that. So, you know, if you can take something from someone else, maybe this is going to work. Maybe this is the reverse jujitsu that they need to see.
Zain
6:13
Oh, so Carter, just to be clear, you're saying that Rishi Sunak, in his charitable act of receiving rather than giving to the people is actually taking away from another cohort of people. You're saying that there's more dimensionality than I, a lay host of this podcast, am even noticing, Carter.
Corey
6:35
I think it turns out it's not about giving you shit. It's about taking shit away from other people. That's the insight that the UK conservatives are bringing into the table here i
Carter
6:45
think the technical term cory is fuck your buddy is
Corey
6:51
it is that yeah
Carter
6:51
yeah i believe so technical term okay
Carter
6:53
that's the technical term all
Corey
6:55
well next time we have a meeting of the board maybe the two-thirds majority that is me and zane can kind of constitute the zane
Carter
7:01
zane ever gets invited to a meeting come on that's that's not crazy talk is
Zain
7:07
is there any part of you hogan that is not cynical about something like this and says you know what maybe there is something to be be said around asking people to contribute to something, especially in an election season, right? This could have been a policy that the prime minister, because he is the prime minister, have announced at any period in time if he wanted to roll out national service. But is there any part of you that as a commentator, but also as a strategist says, yeah, there's like a cynical motivation that older people, like the simple math as we've described it politically, that older people will probably relish in this or may even like it. But is there a part of you that says, maybe people are just wanting to get involved and maybe a call to service a call to give a call to uh you know uh put yourself out there rather than be on the receiving end might actually be part of a political playbook going forward well
Corey
7:56
well congratulations zane on proving that you can frame anything as like a gift or a positive thing or a right or a freedom or a good if you try hard enough and you're not going to prison you've been called to service you don't have to do community community service, you've been called to help your nation, right? And I mean, look, I will say this. If I'm going to be as non-cynical as possible, one of the most beloved political speeches of all time was JFK saying, you know, his inaugural saying, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. But can I tell you something about that speech, Zane?
Corey
8:32
Can I tell you something?
Zain
8:33
You know what I'd prefer is if you not just tell me something but if you tell me everything about that speech okay
Corey
8:39
okay well i'll tell you this about the speech and
Corey
8:41
and i already told you it it was his inaugural address it was after the election he you
Corey
8:46
you know he didn't run on you gotta give you gotta give you gotta give and and so i do think there's kind of a fundamental challenge with the particular strategy that the tories are bringing here and i do think it will be very motivating for the youth vote why should i bother to vote Who fucking cares? They're all the same. Why not? Because every weekend for the next year of your life, you're going to have to go fucking do whatever Rishi Sunak says or
Corey
9:10
or join the military. You know, I mean, like, is that really something that is not going to keep people at home? That's for sure.
Zain
9:17
Carter, I'm calling this strategy, or lack thereof, as it clearly seems that you two are suggesting, the joy of giving.
Zain
9:24
Should we be implementing the joy of giving in Canada more, Carter? Asking people, asking Canadians, either through Jagmeet Singh or Justin Trudeau or Pierre Polyev, asking Canadians to do something for the great sort of nis of their nation, for the greater good of their country. country? Or do you feel like anything that is framed like this is clearly going to be accepted and seen as being nothing but a cynical political ploy?
Carter
9:52
Well, I'll tell you something. I think that it was the 2004 federal liberals that proposed some sort of a service for young people. But the difference was it wasn't mandatory. It was an optional thing. And I think that because it wasn't mandatory, the 2004 liberals didn't
Carter
10:08
didn't win, or did they? I can't even remember. They
Corey
10:11
They won in 2004,
Carter
10:12
Yeah, so it wasn't
Carter
10:13
wasn't implemented, but here we are. You know, you don't need to actually implement all the things that you propose. But, you know, this is a pretty, I think it's a cynical ploy trying to win over a group of people who aren't impacted by the choice. And I don't think it's going to be something that's successful in this market, let alone in any other market.
Zain
10:38
Corey, what do you think? Should we see more of this in Canada?
Corey
10:43
Well, there is certainly... Okay, I'm going to give this the most charitable read.
Corey
10:48
There is certainly something to what you've been pulling out there, which is people don't feel a sense of belonging. People don't have church. They don't have community in a physical sense the same way they used to have. And there is all sorts of ink that's been spilled in all sorts of ways over this idea that we're drifting apart, we're isolated, we're not happy. and part of that is because we've lost those connections and and so we are looking for something bigger than ourselves and unfortunately what so many people are finding are crazy
Corey
11:17
crazy online conspiracy groups right
Corey
11:18
right rather than uh you know something that might advance or better society so that's my most charitable read my most charitable read is there is a real problem and rishi sunak is proposing something that's at least an attempt at a solution if that were his kind of stated goal uh you know i'm not really that's not my read of it right it seems to be more about national service in the service of making the nation and that's that's a little bit different right that's uh that may have the same end effect of like kind of joining you together creating the ties that bond but yeah i i don't know it feels different it hits different and ultimately i do believe that electorally it's
Corey
11:59
it's the kind of thing you do when you're trying to shore up up the
Corey
12:03
the bottom falling out rather than actually make it an active play for victory. Now, maybe we're wrong. Now, if you ask, should we do more of this in Canada? I think that being a part of something is a powerful force. And I do wonder if politics hasn't become, you know, we had the long tail, these microtransactions, really epitomized by probably the second Harper election, as much much as anything, right?
Corey
12:29
I don't know that that's still the case. I think we're long past the idea of, like, that small microtransactions. We are talking about big thrusts of history, big causes. You know, we're doing this to save the country. We're doing this to advance society.
Corey
12:42
It's just, it's packaged a little bit different than Rishi Sunak does it.
Zain
12:46
Carter, if this was not during an election, would
Zain
12:50
would you be so cynical?
Zain
12:51
Or would you kind of say, like you know okay he's trying something here like he's trying to actually solve the problem that corey's articulating around social isolation and lack of community threads etc or is it just the overlay of an active election and a wedge issue to try to if you can call it that but an issue that is clearly spilling in that we're talking about here in canada that is trying to that that makes this cynical for you or
Zain
13:14
or would you be cynical regardless uh if you were uh you know analyzing this i'm
Carter
13:19
i'm going to hold the position that politics generally tends towards being being political so i think that you know even if he was doing this outside of an election he would be doing it for a political reason or a political point i'm not sure that any country or any organized you know i mean despite cory's eloquent conversations about how we're looking for community and those types of things i don't disagree with that i think that that's there's a lot of truth to that but i'm not sure that we're looking for forced community i mean people get put in jail they don't seem to be you know thrilled when they come out dude i'm gonna miss you have you
Corey
13:53
you not seen shot caller sometimes you do find a community in jail well
Corey
13:57
well you know what comes who you are i
Carter
13:58
i saw the shawshank redemption and it didn't really feel like a community to me but are you
Carter
14:04
you know the great escape or red
Corey
14:05
became his best friend red and andy became inseparable they created literally could not
Zain
14:09
not have chosen a worse example to illustrate your lack of point there i
Carter
14:15
was feeling they met
Zain
14:16
met up on a beach together the fuck you talking about the
Carter
14:20
the guy who killed himself was who i was thinking of you
Carter
14:23
you know i mean maybe that was a further example of the community that existed inside are you thinking of the green mile oh
Carter
14:30
oh yeah the green mile that was a good one too yeah that's probably the one i was thinking of thanks saint you
Carter
14:35
you know i i just think this isn't the you don't government isn't in place to create community government is in place to give shit to people that they need whether it be roads or whether it be clean air or whether it be clean water that's what government's supposed to be doing so you know collective needs are what we serve i don't buy
Zain
14:56
that can government give you a platform to yes
Zain
15:01
give your time but also find community purpose a sense of national identity
Corey
15:06
like national identity hundreds of years ago we We came up with this thing called nationalism, and it's created a sense of identity and purpose ever
Corey
15:14
since, for good and for bad.
Corey
15:24
kumbaya when we were talking about religion. You saved it for when we were talking about nationalism. That came
Carter
15:29
came into my head. I don't know when. I can't predict these things. You know that. That's true. Corey,
Zain
15:34
Corey, did Prison Break jump the shark when they tried to break out of prison?
Zain
15:40
Or when they tried
Zain
15:41
tried to break back into prison? Break in. Break in, Zane.
Zain
15:45
I feel like that was clever. Because what happened? They forgot their wallet or something? I don't know what the reason they were breaking back in was. Well, I do love it because
Corey
15:53
because you have to imagine the showrunner gets through a pretty well-liked season. They're like, oh, yeah, they fucking got
Zain
15:58
got out. That's great.
Corey
15:59
But how are we going to call it Prison Break?
Zain
16:01
They're out of prison now. What are we going to do? True. It's
Zain
16:04
Carter, did you see the fact that the entire map was tattooed on him the whole time?
Carter
16:09
I'm not going to lie to you, Zane. Never watched the show. Didn't care.
Zain
16:13
Okay. Well, it's fine. We were talking about prison movies, and clearly all you know about is Shawshank. Hey, Corey, talk
Zain
16:19
talk to me about this. And I didn't bring this up to talk about UK politics. That really was not the reason. I wanted to actually— I
Corey
16:24
I will—Zane, if you want to make this an all-UK politics pod for the next month— Let's do it, baby. I'm in. Yeah.
Corey
16:29
Yeah. This is the greatest. okay
Zain
16:31
so there is there is another uk sort of parallel story around young people okay okay um it's about starmer the labor leader saying that he's in favor of allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote and
Zain
16:44
and that's a nice interesting sort of like contrast pairing between this mandatory what i'm calling national or civil service right and to be clear and charitable as soon as he's not talking talking about military service exclusively, although that is the heart of this program.
Zain
16:59
Seems kind of haphazard in how it's been announced, but I don't want to get into that, so to speak. What do you think of, in a voting period, talking about who can vote but not in this period? Like, I think that's so interesting to me, like, from a political perspective, because as our politics here are driving more towards mortgages and housing and young people unlike those policy issues, this is looking more at like rights and responsibilities. And I may be painting too much of a reductive picture of what's happening in the UK. And just to be clear, we're just one week into what they're up to. But I'm curious how you see those parallels between what we're shaping up for for our young people versus what they're shaping up for over there.
Corey
17:42
you know, I have conflicting feelings about the base issue. Like, first of all, Well, I have known 11 year olds who are more worthy of the right to vote than than 40 year olds, like for sure, you know, much more engaged in the issues, really follow the news, really understand the consequences of thinking about the long term.
Corey
18:00
But that doesn't mean I think every 11 year old should be allowed to vote. I kind of wonder why
Corey
18:06
why we're so fixated on kind of this arbitrary, you must be this age. I, you know, I don't have a great system for it, but I almost wonder if there shouldn't be a period where you kind of like your driver's license you kind of validate that you can vote and you know and it's automatic at 25 or something like that when the human brain is fully developed but maybe something like that but i do think that there is something long-term thinking about starmer doing this like it looks like he's going to win this election massively certainly we do see a correlation between getting old and voting conservative and a kind of a reverse correlation where where labor does better with younger demographics and he might be thinking you do this without mentioning it during election you're going to get crushed you've mentioned it in the election though you've got a mandate to do it and this is probably long term to the advantage of labor uh because you know uh there tends to be a lot of passion about changing the world uh when you're younger you know when you're when you're 18 17 you want to change the world you
Corey
19:08
you you want want to fix it all and when you're steven carter's age you just want to make sure that
Corey
19:13
that your bathroom renovation goes okay and not too much over you accept a certain amount of over because you're old and jaded but
Corey
19:20
but not too much over that's what your ambitions become yeah
Carter
19:22
yeah that's that's a very good analogy i mean and i'm
Corey
19:26
i'm basically throwing carter under the bus but i feel sort of the same way myself a lot of days and look i think what starmer is doing is is both idealistic and and practical, and cynical. It's all of those things. And
Zain
19:42
serve them well after this election.
Zain
19:43
Carter, I'm coming to you in a second. You know, just like the Sunak strategy you
Zain
19:47
you guys dissected wasn't for necessarily 18-year-olds. They're probably the most, to hate it, 18-plus year olds. Who is the 16 and 17-year-olds allowed to vote strategy for, Corey? Is
Zain
20:00
Is it actually just Like, is
Zain
20:02
it actually just as clear as it is painted? It's for 16 and 17-year-olds? Or where does the cynicism for you start, right? And how do you paint it, so to speak? Yeah,
Corey
20:15
Yeah, well, I believe because it will be politically advantageous in the long term for labor. That's the cynicism right there.
Corey
20:22
But you know what? But we're also seeing
Zain
20:24
seeing young people vote conservative or at least indicate that conservatism is more aligned from, you know, their perspective, so to speak. That
Corey
20:33
That does seem to be more the aberration right now, but fair point. I will say, however, both of these moves, well, I think both Sunak's move and Starmer's move are at their core about
Corey
20:47
entirely about politics. they are also reflecting things that their core supporters believe, right? Conservatives believe in service. They believe that you should support the nation. Labor believes that youth should be empowered to make decisions and that the world is really much more... The
Corey
21:03
The vote is so much more about them than us, right? We're that much closer to the grave. That's another thing I think would be kind of interesting. Let's give you four votes at 20. Let's ratchet it down to three votes at 40, two votes at 60, and one vote after 80. I'd be okay with a system like that, too, because it has to do with how long you have to live with the decisions. But, you
Corey
21:24
you know, Labour believes that young people should have a say and should be enfranchised. So, while I think ultimately politics is at its heart, it's
Corey
21:32
it's sellable because it is something that they tend to believe in both cases.
Zain
21:37
Carter, what do you think of this from Starmer and Labour as it relates to how they seem to be targeting young people? What do you think is in their strategy here well
Carter
21:46
i think that targeting young people is great but you know i'm not sure that saying that a certain group's going to get the vote is necessarily i'm tend towards where cory's going i'm not sure this is an election strategy to gain votes today so much as it's an election strategy to justify actions tomorrow uh you know if if if this was about winning votes today um i'm not sure who's advocating on behalf of the 16 and 17 year olds um i just don't see that particular piece and to cory's point about who you'd give the vote to if you were if you were out there handing out votes and saying okay you get to have votes and you don't and you don't get to have votes i mean i'm in the midst of writing a book called the tyranny of the less engaged and the reason for that is that you
Carter
22:33
everybody who's not engaged I don't want them having the vote. I'd love everybody to be hyper-engaged around elections. But, you know, I'd also like a pony. I'm not going to get either of those things. So how do you determine who gets the vote? Well, if there's a whole group of hyper-engaged 16- and 17-year-olds that want to come and vote,
Carter
22:52
you know, who am I to argue? Who am I to argue with that?
Zain
22:57
You're writing a book. Did you want to make any mention of that, Carter? I hear you're writing a book.
Carter
23:01
You're in the book, Zane.
Carter
23:03
Am I in the foreword? You're in the book. You're in the book. You're in the section, Why'd You Lose? And Why'd You Win?
Carter
23:10
sections. It's nice that
Corey
23:10
that you're in two sections. That's really good. Yeah.
Carter
23:12
Yeah. Corey's not actually— I'm only in one. I'm only in one, actually. Corey's not in the fucking book at all, really. Truth or lie. Well,
Zain
23:18
Well, Corey actually owns the Why'd You Lose section. Yeah.
Zain
23:21
And it's just a picture of Corey. It's actually
Zain
23:25
very little words. Listen, the whole
Carter
23:26
whole book is brought to you by Corey Hogan. He's invested in it. And thanks again, Corey. Really appreciate it. He has so much
Zain
23:33
much money on it. Corey, you've invested
Zain
23:34
in it? that's interesting yeah that's that's interesting i thought you said the only thing you're investing in was the patreon
Corey
23:38
i invested in our um you
Corey
23:41
you know all of our money zane yeah
Zain
23:42
yeah i don't even
Zain
23:43
like the strategist money i'm just are we starting a publishing company is that what's happening here we're
Carter
23:49
going to uh okay
Carter
23:50
okay crooked crooked media you have no fucking idea we are just going full on wait
Zain
23:55
wait so you're writing the book and then and we're we're publishing we're taking all the risk No, ChatGPT's writing the book, Stephen's editing the book, and we're taking the money. I'm
Carter
24:04
I'm not even really sure I'm editing.
Zain
24:06
I'm actually totally fine with this arrangement now that I've heard about it in full. Hey, Carter, I actually have a strategy question for you here. Sure. Here's what's interesting. Do you see either of these as outright political winners, or are these just wedge issues to get attention? And what I find interesting about them is that as our country trends towards spending spending billions of dollars and policy promises – Trudeau's most recent budget is an interesting one – that what really seems to be getting the headlines – and
Zain
24:38
and of course, underneath this, the UK will have billions of dollars and tons of promises – is actually free, quote-unquote, policies, or not-so-expensive policies that are getting a lot of traction, at least conversationally. Is there a strategy or political lesson to be learned here around what we're seeing, and what is it for you?
Carter
25:00
So they're not policies that are actually going to generate a whole ton of votes. They're ideally designed to get some conversation going, but
Carter
25:07
but they're throwaway policies. No one's going to remember these policies when they walk into the ballot box. These are just things that you throw away. And every campaign does this. Yet they're
Zain
25:19
they're dominating the conversation in some way.
Carter
25:22
way. Because that's the only thing that we're talking about right now. You
Carter
25:24
You only can talk about that which has been presented to you. So these are the conversations. These are designed to get conversation. But I guarantee you, Zane, these are not going to be the things getting conversation when the less engaged start making up their minds. When those less engaged start making up their minds, when it comes to the actual ballot box question, these aren't going to be the questions. These aren't designed to be the questions. These are designed to fill space at the start of an an election to get yourself some attention and then hopefully not fuck anything up,
Carter
25:58
right? I mean, I've had all kinds of things like this where I've thought of different campaign policies that ideally
Carter
26:04
ideally don't fuck anything up, but just get you a little bit of attention prior to when you really want to put forward the stuff that gets you the electoral vote.
Carter
26:14
It's a total waste of
Zain
26:18
Hold on, Corey. I'm coming to you in a second. Carter, I like where you're going here. So let me paraphrase what I've heard. These are policies that de-risk you, that fill time, that generate conversation. I like all of that. Go one step further. For which audience? Because you're telling me it's not for the folks that will ultimately create the bulk of the undecideds or those that are ultimately going to vote. For which audience is this for at the beginning? And then Corey, you have a take at this. Who is this for? What's the strategy here? Corey
Carter
26:47
Corey articulated it just a second ago. Both of these proposals fit into core values of the organizations that they're representing. Right. So when Labour talks about giving more people the right to vote and giving young people the right to vote, it fits into their core values as an organization. organization when the conservatives are talking about service compulsory service it fits into the core values of who they are as an organization that is a value play to base that isn't changing anybody's vote but it is ensuring that the base knows that they've been heard and i bet you that it's setting up something that's going to be far more middle that's going to be you know something that um is is maybe not loved by the base quite so much because it's going to be something designed to win people who aren't paying attention.
Carter
27:35
And that's going to be some, you know, don't worry, we've got compulsory service, we won you over, you like us, and then bam, in comes something that's designed to win over the middle voter.
Corey
27:49
I think that there's a big difference between the two policies. I actually don't think 16 and 17 year olds voting is shocking or big. 16 and 17 year olds can vote in a lot of elections in a lot of jurisdictions, including I believe in some in the uk although i'm not 100 on that i should have checked that uh while i was listening to steven's long-winded answers there are
Carter
28:09
are you kidding me i
Corey
28:11
i do think that there is uh something to be said for in the first days of a campaign you're making statements about who you are and what you believe in there and let's
Corey
28:22
let's let's first of all address like what is the most obvious point rishi sunak is 20 points down in the polls so while i say that they're not the same in terms of like boldness i think that's kind of the point like starmer is doing things that are a lot more kind of innocuous change and sunak is having to propose things that are well his slogan is clear plan bold action secure future and i expect you'll see a lot more of the quote-unquote bold action in service of quote-unquote secure future here it's just going to happen throughout the election and you're going to use these first couple of days especially in a surprise election that hasn't been been built up to in a conventional fashion to really define what you think this is all about and we've talked about this in the canadian context a lot of times they
Corey
29:07
they follow the plan for the first week and then they get knocked off the fucking plan the first week
Zain
29:11
week is the only week
Corey
29:12
week you can look at and say oh
Corey
29:15
oh this is what they intended which by the way rishi given
Corey
29:18
given that what is going on with your campaign but it
Corey
29:22
it is like these are the intentional actions everything after this is part intention, part reaction. And that's just how it is here. And you can see that in these first moves, they're trying to define themselves through the brands that they've put forward. And these are both policies that support those brands. These are both policies that support the general feel you get from these organizations. And in the case of Rishi Sunak's, it's also kind of a shocking one that shocks people out of their stupid, like it's not a good policy. Forcing people to do things is not how you create love of country. That's how you create resentment. And by the way, armies don't want draftees anymore, because they've realized it kind of is not great for an army to have a bunch of people who don't want to fucking be there. Right? So not
Corey
30:06
not great policies, but you haven't heard them. They're bold. You're talking about them. And so I do think that it's more about like, you know, the brands they're trying to present and the ballot questions they're trying to establish. wish it carter
Zain
30:19
carter but it's probably a good time to let everyone know that whether you're a patreon subscriber or not we are actually announcing our mandatory discord participation policy if you do not participate on discord as part of the listenership of our podcast um we will not allow you to listen to the podcast cory's actually figured out a technical way to do this we don't ask questions right carter uh we just let cory do it uh but yeah no but but here we are carter and And we're taking a page out of the, and I'm just going to go back here to a quote from the transcript, the greatest campaigner of all time, Rishi Sunak, and taking a page out of his book.
Carter
30:54
He's amazing. And I'm just super thrilled that we're able to talk about him in real time. Between
Carter
31:00
Between him and Trump, I'm really feeling the love for the conservatives right now. Thank God Moti's carrying the conservative movement.
Carter
31:09
It's a different thing.
Zain
31:11
Let's open that bracket. Let's do it. Yeah. Let's just do that. Yeah, the seven waves of voting that is India because their population is so massive. What an election to tackle, Carter. Let's move on to our next segment. Our next segment, don't worry about it. I've got three or four political stories, Corey. And I want to know, should the folks at the center of the story be politically anxious or worrying about what's happening? Or is this one of those things you just don't, I
Zain
31:35
I don't even say swing at, but just don't concern yourself about because, well, you don't have control over it. You can't really do much about it. I want a strategist take on some of these things.
Zain
31:45
You cool with that?
Zain
31:46
I'm going to throw the first one at you,
Corey
31:47
Corey. It's great. I'm
Zain
31:48
I'm ready. Speaker Fergus has
Zain
31:51
another vote against him in the House of Commons. He survives his speakership, winning a vote 168 to 142 with liberals and New Democrats and Greens alongside backing him. But 168 to 142, the conservatives and the bloc vote to get rid of him. If you're the liberals at this point, I mean, yes, he's, you know, the neutral speaker, but one of the reasons he's getting these votes is because he's not seen as a neutral speaker. Is this something you're worried about? Like, it makes headlines every little now and again. I don't see the conservatives stopping putting this vote on the floor again and again.
Zain
32:30
Worrying about it or not so much, Corey, for the liberals?
Corey
32:33
waste of time for the conservatives. Maybe the bloc has different dynamics, I'm not sure. But I'll tell you this.
Corey
32:40
We talked, well, Carter talked about things not being vote-getters if it's, you know, 16- and 17-year-olds voting in national service. These are the early days. What a not-vote-getter to say the speaker we feel is too partisan and we voted against him regularly. Like, nobody, the only people who could give a fuck already have a team, right? Like, they're already following politics. They already have opinions about this stuff. If the conservatives were to spend their time talking about this during an election, it would be such an utter waste of time. And I understand what they were trying. Listen, first of all, I understand what they were trying to do. They were trying to draw more blood and create more chaos for the liberals. But they didn't. And they should have just dropped it there. The fact that they continually go back to this, well, like at this point, all they're doing is making it when there's a legitimate concern about the speaker, everyone's going to say, how's this any different than the 12 illegitimate ones that you've already thrown at us? I don't care. And that's the people who care. That's the Stephen Carters and the Corey Hogan's and the Zane Velges of the world. The
Corey
33:42
The whole rest of the population will not even hear about it to get to that point.
Carter
33:49
if you're the liberals,
Carter
33:49
are you worrying about this?
Carter
33:51
Oh, sleeping like a baby. This is not anything to worry about at all. I mean, go after him all day long. It's just never, ever. I mean, this is the type of inside baseball that never wins an election that everybody gets all excited about. But, you know, again, this isn't about the electorate. This is about process and shit. And no one's buying. No one's buying. And Pierre Polyev excels at this kind of shit. Now, he's also the guy who's excelling right now in the eyes of the electorate, but I don't believe that those two things are linked. I think that he may think that he's doing a great job in getting ahead because look at all these, you know, all these attacks are working. But I maintain that the attacks aren't working. What's working is that you're not, you know, you're not the liberals. Congratulations, you're not the liberals. That's how come you're winning. So, you
Carter
34:43
you know, keep chasing this if you want to, but you're not ultimately winning over the electorate.
Zain
34:48
Carter, in this next question on nervous energy in politics, let's talk about if Peter Polyev has something to worry about. A secondary nominee candidate alleges irregularities in the nomination process. This is after Sabrina Maddow, who's— Guarantee you,
Corey
35:04
you, you could just run our last answer, but keep
Zain
35:10
He seems like he's going to win. There's a lot of people want to run for him, and then there's preferred candidates. it's carter is
Zain
35:16
is he is he having to put any energy into this whatsoever knowing that the problem probably gets worse not better and i put problem in air quotes so to speak to depending on where you stand on your analysis here any
Zain
35:30
energy he should spend on this yes or no no
Carter
35:33
no this is i mean this is one of those things that happens in every single cycle uh you know i mean the only place that it doesn't happen is in locations where you are never ever going to win and
Carter
35:47
right now the conservatives feel like they can win just about everybody everywhere so there's multiple people coming out of the woodwork who all want a nomination and every one of those nominations when you lose and you're a fucking loser that's
Carter
36:00
that's gonna be like oh no i lost there must have been voting irregularities or i didn't get green lit there must have been voting irregularities these are private clubs kids they get to choose who runs for them and if you don't measure up or you're not the preferred candidate you're gone tough fucking shit cory
Zain
36:20
cory you're copying pasting that are you going to add some nuance to uh stephen carter's answer i mean at the core of it is the question of are you worrying if your peer that that that's that's what i want to get your answer on but then also do you want to clean up on anything carter's put down on aisle five well
Corey
36:36
well Well, look, I agree with the core of what he spilled all over aisle five here. But two things. One is I would say that as a party leader, you have to, the way you phrase it, you got to think about it a little bit, right? Like you can't have carnage in the party amongst the organizers. But I will say, and this is the second thing I wanted to say, this is a self-healing wound. Like this is the remarkable thing about political parties, because what happens is, A, as Stephen said, somebody lost, and so they're immediately less relevant. and the person who won has a massive incentive to defend you and to defend the party and to defend the process and they will and they will do that on the riding level without too much from you at all right like they'll go and they'll mend those bridges and they'll have the coffees and they'll hear the people out and they'll say oh the unpleasantness is behind us but you know it was all good but i want you on my team and so it self heals in that way the other way it self heals is an election comes and the minute an election comes the person who's complaining all
Corey
37:35
all the other conservatives will flee from because they'll say you are risking our chances in this riding which by definition is winnable that's why people were fighting over it in the first fucking place so when i talk about this being a self-healing wound i mean the system and what they're trying to do all aligns to just tell
Corey
37:53
tell the person who's got the complaint to fuck off forever forever and get behind the leader if you're if you're anybody else any
Carter
38:01
exceptions to that rule carter say so he said the same thing as me right but he just you know he made it sound like it was different any
Zain
38:08
any exceptions to that rule carter or is that like a hard rule for you like and when i say exceptions let me give you a thought around folks that have profile folks that have taken other roles or that i've had other roles with a with a sense of maybe uh public facing elements I look at Sabrina Meadow as being one of them. Any exceptions to that rule? Or are you both like, no, fuck off. Like, you know, we don't want you here. Doesn't matter. We don't care about your outside social media account. We don't care about your profile elsewhere. We don't care if a news article will cover you or all news organizations will cover you. Is there any exceptions to this rule, Carter, for you? Any
Carter
38:45
Any nuance you want
Zain
38:46
want to add? I'm
Carter
38:47
I'm thinking right now, has there ever been a time, and Corey will maybe pipe in with something, I can't think of a time when there has been a sour grapes person,
Carter
38:57
person, even an independent who winds up running independently, who winds up spoiling the election for the party. It just doesn't
Carter
39:05
doesn't matter. It just isn't a thing that actually matters. The party carries so much weight now. The party is everything when it comes to the electorate. they're not voting for the local candidate so i mean we've seen local candidates who are like paper bags get elected um i just don't see this you know uh oh my goodness with it you know i was disqualified because you know i
Carter
39:31
i don't even know why i was disqualified well if you don't know why you were disqualified then you know i'd have nothing to say to you maybe if you knew why you got disqualified maybe we'd have a chance at a conversation but you don't even know that so you know fuck it it's just it doesn't even matter these these sour grapes are just that they're sour grapes and people will move on yeah
Zain
39:53
you guys live such a chill life you don't
Carter
39:55
worry about anything you don't worry about anything short
Carter
39:57
short term we worried about the compulsory service because that's true we did we
Corey
40:01
we found out we were very old then we remembered we're old yeah but short term and locally these things seem massive they're
Corey
40:08
they're not they're not even massive they're not not massive. And I'm sure there are probably examples where somebody served a bit of a spoiler,
Corey
40:15
but here's a spoiler for all of you.
Corey
40:20
Good transition, right? This
Carter
40:21
be good. Well done.
Corey
40:22
Pierre Poliev is going to have a super majority the way things are going right now. He doesn't need to worry about one fucking edge seat. He just simply does not. And what he does need though, is a team that's going to get behind him and a team that he thinks he can trust. So he's probably saying, here's the other self-correcting, self-healing component of it. The minute somebody complains about the outcome, everybody in Central says, fucking glad they're not our candidate, dodged a bullet with that one. Jesus, not a team player, you know?
Zain
40:53
Like it's a script every single time. Corey, I think it's a good segue to my next one.
Zain
41:00
federal liberals, of course, Justin
Zain
41:01
Justin Trudeau, he's called a by-election in Toronto St. Paul's. It's going to be held on June 24th. This is a long-standing, nearly three-decade liberal seat, of course, with former Minister Bennett holding that seat for a long time. They have Leslie Church, who we've talked about in the past, a former chief of staff to Christopher Freeland. This is someone who is carrying the liberal banner in this by-election. The Conservatives have Don Stewart, financial services worker. The NDP announced in April that Amrit Par, who's a non-profit director, is going to be serving as their candidate, so to speak. The reason I focus in on this one, Corey, is that we're already hearing rumblings that this longstanding, ironclad,
Zain
41:45
liberal seat in the heart of Toronto could
Zain
41:51
And so my question is not, should the liberals be worrying? My question is, who
Zain
41:56
who should be worrying, if anyone? Is it Justin Trudeau and Pierre Polyev, that now that the story is, quote unquote, out there, that he has to seal the deal in Toronto to show viability in that regard? Or is it Jagmeet Singh? So the question I have is not, should Justin Trudeau be worrying, Corey, it's who should be worrying for this by-election that's going to happen in, well, about a month?
Corey
42:24
Justin Trudeau should be worried, and maybe even more so than the Liberals. Because, well, he has got a pretty iron grip on that party. And while he continues to say he's going to lead them through the next election, this is just another proof point. If you're losing Toronto St. Paul's, that
Corey
42:41
that fucking wipeout, okay? And yes, it's a by-election, and yes, by-elections are not great for governing parties. That's pretty bad. The Liberals won that one by, I think, about 20 points last time. And
Corey
42:54
you start to lose seats in Toronto, you won by 20 points.
Corey
42:58
Where are you winning? Where are you winning at that point?
Corey
43:03
It's a big, big problem for Justin Trudeau in particular. If you're Pierre Polyev, you're playing with found money. I
Corey
43:10
I got to tell you, the idea that somehow it's going to look bad if he only loses that by five points instead of winning it by one is wrong. It's mistaken. In fact, you kind of have to watch out for weird start candidates who win ridings and buy elections like that. He's
Zain
43:26
Hold on, Carter, I'm coming to you. Explain that to me. That last point was really interesting, but I don't know if I completely have connected the dots on it. The five and the one, explain it. Yeah,
Corey
43:38
Yeah, well, maybe this is a bigger conversation in a different segment at a different time. But often when you have somebody winning a by-election like that, first of all, it was a by-election. So all eyes and politics were on them. You know, the leaders showing up, they're getting tons of donations, super important. We've all talked about kind of like new MP disease on this podcast before. and you know the the super importance you all of a sudden get you're the same person but all of a sudden it
Corey
44:05
it feels different you know you've got the special permissions to go into the house of commons and you're sitting there on the floor and you've got a staff and people are really deferential to you and you just it washes over and you see this happen to mps and mlas elected especially to governments for the first time but even people who look like they're on the way to government right and you
Corey
44:25
you you kind of come in with that energy and the energy of everybody was behind you the leader was there many times you you have a level of self-importance that is actually very difficult to manage if you're uh you know because they're going to come in and say like well you know i won toronto st paul's by doing x you know i just talked plain to them i i let them know about all of my yugioh cards and that really seemed to resonate with people yeah yeah no that
Zain
44:49
so you're not why you fucking won not
Zain
44:51
not why you fucking won that
Zain
44:53
that is interesting so like by election
Zain
44:56
winners have a different vibe like
Zain
44:58
like they come in with a different caucus energy carter have you experienced that they're the same but more they're the same but more is what i'm trying to say is it have you experienced actually this is an interesting topic have you experienced that firsthand either of you well
Carter
45:12
i'm not sure if i've experienced it firsthand with a by-election but i certainly have experienced it firsthand with a number of different candidates that really think their shit don't stink because they won a particularly difficult seat or a seat that people did not expect to be won um you know oh you know i won this seat in red deer or whatever you know whatever the location was and it was gonna it was nearly impossible but i did it this way and i think that that's the way that we need to to follow up on stuff and and if we're going to be winners then we need to we
Carter
45:44
we need to listen to what i have to say about about how these election campaigns should be running you
Carter
45:49
know carter you didn't even have anything to do with that by election victory or loss or the general election victory where you
Carter
45:56
you know we won 62 seats but you know you were the 62nd and you think you're all that in a bag of fucking chips you're not you're not it's just you know sometimes you win seats and you
Carter
46:08
you know people they ascribe far too much agency to themselves in their own story uh and that agency becomes really problematic down the line well
Corey
46:18
well not you know the same kind of problem manifested differently a lot of floor crossers suffer from this too right because they act like i have the secrets i can tell you how the other side wins yeah i'm talking about you garth turner uh you crossed to the liberals you fucking lost eventually but you were very confident very confident you knew how to win everywhere if The liberals just stopped being liberals, apparently. But that's a challenge, too. Like, people come in and they think that they hold all of the keys because they were a big national narrative for a while.
Zain
46:51
who, if anyone, should worry about Toronto St. Paul's? Is it Trudeau? Is it Singh? Is it Pauliev? Is it none of them? You can reject the premise and say, you know what, I'm living a chill life as Stephen Carter. I don't worry about shit. No one rattles me. Who should be worrying, if anyone, here, Carter? Well,
Carter
47:08
personally, I'm not worried. I don't think it's going to land on me when Trudeau loses this. I mean, it's obviously Trudeau. I mean, he's got a tenuous grip on this situation. He needs to be the one who pulls them out. And there is nothing like not being able to deliver on a simple by-election. um this
Carter
47:33
isn't complicated they just they need to win this this by-election it's super easy and you didn't do it what's your excuse why didn't you win you remember that time zane when you didn't win an election and we were asking you why you lost and you didn't answer because you were you felt shame um
Carter
47:52
um that's the exact same it's the exact same
Zain
47:57
well thank you thank you for that don't
Zain
47:59
don't worry what emotions i felt
Corey
48:02
You're not going to feel any shame when
Corey
48:04
when Nahid Nenshi's win is ratified. He's already won. It's already over.
Corey
48:09
Mark your ballots. Mark your ballots. There's four spots. Zane's name has four letters. Z-A-I-N.
Carter
48:16
ballots. But make the I a one and the Z a two, and don't put them near Nahid Nenshi's name.
Zain
48:26
Carter. I can't condone that. I can't condone that. Listen,
Carter
48:29
Listen, no one's here actually asking for your permission, Zane.
Corey
48:32
Yeah, this was officially voted on by the Strategist Media Corporation, yeah.
Zain
48:37
Okay, well, listen, that should clear it up. Hey, Corey, Daniel
Zain
48:41
Daniel Smith. Yeah. There's an article that says that there are sources within the UCP saying they're getting cranky. They don't like some of the recent bills. They're going to send a sharp message on November 2nd. That's, of course, for leadership review at the annual convention. intervention, question
Zain
48:58
question is. And then, of course, it explains the long history that we Albertans are very familiar with as it relates to conservative premiers and conservative leaders.
Zain
49:09
are you worried if you're Danielle Smith? Are you going to get worried? Are you putting any attention on any of this? Is now the time to get worried? Because it was about a year ago that the entire sort of campaign strategy was, don't worry, we'll just get rid of her when she She wins. She seems to have, you know, solidified, consolidated power. But a lot can happen in a year. Kind of perhaps the heart of what this article is trying to say is
Zain
49:33
is now the time for Danielle Smith to get worried. Corey, are you going to just be chill and not trying to get stressed about any of this if you're her?
Corey
49:42
So do you remember, I think it was in November or December, we did a whole like two hour pod about the then upcoming alberta ndp leadership based
Corey
49:51
based on a art or a article written by jason markasoff yeah
Carter
49:55
yeah do you recall
Corey
49:57
and we said at the time like oh thank god somebody's reported on this we can finally talk about this everybody's been talking about this forever but it's now like out there this is sort of like that like i've been hearing from my conservative friends for a couple of months that there's a lot of discontent and and malcontent in uh in rural writings about some of the moves that daniel smith has has done i don't i'm not well positioned to know how serious it is but i will say certainly these rumors are out there and they have been for a bit and um what
Corey
50:30
what i think is extra fascinating especially given your throwback to when we were talking about people saying don't worry after the election we'll get rid of her the people who were saying don't worry after the election we'll get rid of her were the left
Corey
50:43
left of the the ucp the people who want to get rid of her now are the right and if you're on the left of the ucp you're probably thinking oh fuck this this is this goes to 11 like we're sitting at 10 i thought it went to 10 we're going to 11 so they might actually help her here like i i'm curious to see what plays out over the next bit but i do think we need to acknowledge that
Corey
51:06
that there is a certain ideological integrity there a lot of what daniel smith's been doing for the past couple of years is is nobody's definition of conservative you know talking about creating crown corporations taking away local autonomy those
Corey
51:19
those are not conservative ideas you know there's a lot of big government you
Corey
51:23
you know low autonomy ideas that we've seen come out of the daniel smith government so credit
Corey
51:29
credit where credit's due you know like a philosophical conservative probably has a lot of reason to be alarmed by daniel smith so
Zain
51:38
so the question carter i'm getting to you in a second Corey I need you to answer the question oh
Zain
51:43
oh wow are you sweating at all are you sweating at
Corey
51:46
all I thought you could read between the lines no no Corey I
Zain
51:49
I can but our listeners have you met these people oh yeah it's true they're people like Josh okay
Corey
51:59
not we haven't talked about Carter's latest western standard news I hope that's in the lightning round oh
Zain
52:07
it's the only question in the lightning round now everything
Zain
52:09
everything else is gonna be punted it's good okay good
Zain
52:14
is she sweating it or not yeah
Corey
52:15
yeah yeah i think so i mean if she's not it's okay
Corey
52:20
okay hurry it up we've
Corey
52:21
this western standard article
Corey
52:22
article yeah we got a conservative premier has not gotten turfed okay except yeah since since
Zain
52:28
client carter hurry up with this are you are you if she's if she's uh if she is who she is what she is is she worrying quick
Carter
52:36
well i don't really understand the question but danielle
Carter
52:38
danielle smith uh has been worried about this leadership review since the day she was elected leader and uh that's
Carter
52:44
that's why her actions have been the way they have i'm not sure that the right wing is really gunning for her because i'm not sure i'm not sure who the hell is gunning for her but i do know this there's a target on her back and she's scared shitless
Zain
52:57
uh let's move it on to our over under our lightning round steven carter tell us about this western standard article which paints you as the biggest fan of nahed nenshi uh to ever live Tell me about it. Tell me how it came about. Why are you fighting with people on air? Why is it so long?
Zain
53:13
you just clear the air here. Here's
Carter
53:14
Here's what happened. I went on the QR 770, right? The giant megaphone that is the QR, right? Calgary Redneck Radio. So I go on, and I'm doing my interview, and the host, Sarah Crosby, indicates that, you know, There may be a group of people who are voting for Nenshi to cause distress within the party or something along those lines. And I said, well, your audience is special. Now, special to me sounds like a good word. Special to me sounds like they're very positive. But special to Sarah Crosby made it sound like they compete in the Special Olympics. Now, I didn't say that. Sarah Crosby said that. And now I got an article in the Western Standard calling me a Nenshi supporter, which I
Carter
54:08
upset us both. Both me and Nahid were upset about that one. So I don't know what to say, Zane. That's the story, the whole story, and nothing but the story. I feel
Corey
54:18
feel like there's more to this story.
Zain
54:21
Why can't I find audio of this, Carter? Corey and I have been both looking for the audio, and we can't find it. I
Carter
54:25
I think it's been scrubbed
Carter
54:26
scrubbed from the station. I think that Sarah Crosby's put like a giant X on my name now because she misinterpreted one of my comments. I mean, if I was going to call them names, I would have called them names. To call them special, I thought was actually, it was actually a compliment.
Zain
54:44
Hey, listen, I've always said your listeners are special. They love you more than they love me. To which Crosby took exception. She said that's below the stampede buckle.
Carter
54:53
Yeah. You know what? Cool.
Carter
54:54
That is nothing compared to what I've said about their listeners before. so sarah
Carter
54:59
sarah pull up your you know stand up like this is nothing come on now
Zain
55:04
now what have you said about their listeners before well
Carter
55:06
well i've called them fucking idiots so
Carter
55:09
you know it's it's it's a fine line i'm not sure where the line currently exists waiting for my call from john voss telling me i'm no longer welcome back on that gig that doesn't pay me anything looking
Carter
55:21
looking forward to it we're
Zain
55:22
we're gonna leave it there okay leave it there cory do you have anything to add to this potential libel suit okay great uh we're gonna leave it there that's our defamation who knows either or we've got a pdf that could all work yeah
Zain
55:33
that's a wrap on episode 10 8 1806 of the strategist my name is zane velgey with me as always cory hogan stephen carter and we'll see you next time