Episode 1300: It's party time

Zain 0:01

This is the Strategist episode 1300. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter.

Zain 0:10

Guys, it's a milestone. They said it couldn't be done.

Zain 0:14

Yeah, they did say

Carter 0:15

it. We got to 1300 and we didn't fuck around with the audience, not even a little bit.

Corey 0:19

You know, 1299.9 was on the table for us and we didn't go there. No. I think it shows growth, guys.

Zain 0:26

I don't think it does. Congratulations. I think I want to redo the intro now that I know that was on the table.

Corey 0:32

Yeah, growth. That's us.

Corey 0:37

what are we going to do? What are we talking about tonight?

Carter 0:40

what are we talking about tonight, Zane?

Carter 0:43

Do you want to talk about you? I rode my bike and drove past your house a couple times this weekend.

Corey 0:48

Why'd you win, Zane?

Corey 0:49

Oh, yeah, are we going to talk about the membership cutoff for the Alberta NDP? Oh, yeah, that's great. Why'd

Carter 0:53

Why'd you win, Zane? We should probably focus on that. Hey, Zane. Zane, why'd you win? in how many memberships did you guys sell through the portal i

Zain 0:58

i i prefer the question on the 23rd and i prefer a different question um then then why'd you win uh god it's uh god it's

Corey 1:05

it's been over for like a month are we still doing this are you

Zain 1:08

you still pretending yeah

Zain 1:10

you guys still pretending that's the question you know you guys are pretending like it's over it's not over okay it's not over it's

Corey 1:16

it's not oh i mean in in the most literal sense i guess somebody's got to still They'll count the ballots. Apparently

Corey 1:24

Corey, your drink is going to spill.

Zain 1:24

spill. It's very much... It

Zain 1:26

kind of at a weird angle. That's true. Yeah, it was extremely weird. On behalf of your wife and children, your drink is about to spill. My

Corey 1:33

recording space is a little different today. A little peek behind the screen here. I usually record on a giant couch, you know, at a table. What are you sitting on

Corey 1:43

Part of a giant couch, because my kids made a fort. and the one thing they made me promise before i went down to record was that i didn't wreck their fort so

Corey 1:52

so fuck you should wreck their fort i might still depend yeah i don't know during

Zain 1:57

during the depends on how the episode goes carter yeah for sure um yeah you want to talk about my real estate yeah go ahead why'd you win zane don't try to change the subject i'm fine with

Carter 2:04

with it why'd you win

Zain 2:06

okay carter let me let me let me tell you something this is episode 1300 this is a big milestone it's a leap year and you're

Zain 2:12

you're not coming with the energy what

Corey 2:14

the fuck does that

Carter 2:14

mean it's It's a Leap episode.

Corey 2:15

episode. Well, every four years, we have a Leap episode.

Carter 2:20

It's not divisible by 400. That's not the type of celebration I was expecting.

Carter 2:23

So it's a Leap episode.

Zain 2:26

Would it be divisible by four? So

Carter 2:28

So a Leap episode, we have to do an extra minute.

Zain 2:32

Every fourth episode is

Corey 2:33

is a Leap episode, actually.

Zain 2:34

I don't know if you know this. Doing some extra time, not a problem for me. Not a problem for the show in general. Generally has not been an issue. Do you know someone else who's going on shows? It's one Justin Trudeau. Have you heard about this? I listened to one of them. This fucking guy. I

Carter 2:47

I listened to one of them.

Zain 2:48

He's going on podcasts. Was it the one that he did in the United States for some reason whatsoever? Yeah, what was that? Or the one he did in Saskatoon, Carter? That they thought was a joke,

Carter 2:59

I listened to Freakonomics.

Carter 3:02

Freakonomics. Was he on Freakonomics? He was on Freakonomics. Freakonomics.

Carter 3:06

And it was interesting because the episode that they'd done about immigration was fantastic. And then they did the Trudeau episode.

Zain 3:17

Well, hold on. How did Freakonomics, and I'm curious, how did Freakonomics make a Justin Trudeau episode? Did they just do a straight up interview or did they make it about

Carter 3:25

about some sort of? It was essentially, yeah, a straight up interview. But it was like in the context of immigration. And then from there came all kinds of other things like carbon pricing and things like that. I mean, Freakonomics

Carter 3:36

Freakonomics is a relatively far reaching economics podcast. Yeah,

Zain 3:40

Yeah, but it's got a format. See, this is what I don't like, Corey. In the hypothetical world where the PMO would email us and say, Justin Trudeau, come on. We

Corey 3:49

We don't break format

Zain 3:49

format for anybody. We've

Corey 3:50

We've been looking for a new host, though. I mean, I think that's fine.

Zain 3:54

If he wants to jump in as host and in the preamble to his questions, explain his thinking behind policies, that's fine. He's able

Zain 4:05

do that. That would be incredible.

Corey 4:05

incredible. We're not breaking format, though. I'm putting the invitation out right now. Now, Justin Trudeau, if you want to host an episode of The Strategists... In which you will also be able to... Yeah, you can do everything Zane does. You can preamble. You can ask a question for two minutes that tells us everything about what you think of the issue.

Corey 4:25

Then you got to throw it to me and Steven.

Carter 4:29

going to pay him? I think I'm open.

Carter 4:30

Are we going to pay him? Or

Carter 4:31

Or can we get this for free?

Corey 4:32

You know what? Yeah, we'll pay him the same that we would pay Zane or Annalise. and so

Corey 4:37

so by that I mean

Corey 4:39

not a lot. Virtually nothing.

Carter 4:43

But you know no one

Carter 4:44

one complains. That's all I have to say. So I think he

Corey 4:49

I haven't seen Annalise in a while.

Carter 4:55

She returned one of my phone calls though the other day. So that was a big step forward. Yeah.

Carter 5:00

Because it had been weeks since the last time. I saw her Friday night.

Corey 5:04

Are you guys like unionizing or something? We are unionizing.

Zain 5:07

unionizing. Yeah, the underclass of the Strategist Media Corporation are unionizing on Friday night. That is correct. Carter, so are you seconding this invite by Corey? Are we

Zain 5:19

the Prime Minister? Is this an official invite for the Prime Minister, once again, to be clear, to come on the podcast and host it? yeah and i will step out of the way yeah i will step out of the way yeah uh in fact you know the more i think about it this would actually be a great opportunity for him to get out a lot of his policy without really any opposition whatsoever because he's left with the two of you uh to ask questions too that's true what

Carter 5:44

what do you mean like

Carter 5:46

like we oppose his policies all the time you

Carter 5:49

do it also we also tell him how you wouldn't no

Zain 5:52

no no you wouldn't do it to his face You

Carter 5:54

know what I would do? Do you truly

Carter 5:55

I'd be like, excuse me, Mr. Prime Minister. Can you drop the affect? Can

Carter 6:01

drop the affect, please? I

Zain 6:02

I like that you're saying it now. You wouldn't do it. Imagine a 35-year-old, 50-year-old, handsome white dude sitting in front of you right now asking you questions, Carter. You wouldn't do it. I

Carter 6:13

I don't have to imagine I got Corey right across the way. Right here. Right here, buddy.

Zain 6:18

That's true. Carter, you wouldn't do it. You're all fucking talking. You

Carter 6:23

I would totally do it.

Zain 6:25

You know what? Here's

Carter 6:25

Here's what you should do. I would totally do it. You

Zain 6:26

You know what? Okay, I've changed

Carter 6:27

changed my mind. One of his questions is going to be, how do I win? How do I win? And Corey and I will tell him, drop the affect. Boom.

Carter 6:34

It's the first thing. Okay,

Zain 6:34

Okay, so here's the invite. Here's the invite. Under the Strategist Media Corporation DEI policy, we're inviting the prime minister to take my hosting chair. So it's going to be three white guys. The first question is really going to be about... Okay, yeah, well, that's true.

Zain 6:49

Speaking of underclass, maybe you might join Annalise and I afterwards. Oh, yeah, he'll unionize for sure.

Carter 6:54

seen The Average Earnings?

Zain 6:55

The invite is officially out. So for anyone listening at the PMO, Corey, where can they contact us?

Corey 7:02

Just talk to Doug Wong. He knows how to get a hold of Steven. Yeah. That'll be that.

Carter 7:07

Listen, guys, I don't like to brag or anything, but the PMO has my email address. It's on the blocked list, but I'm still pretty proud of it. Pretty proud.

Zain 7:17

Fantastic. Okay, Carter, that's good. We got that out of the way. Let's move it on to our first segment. Our first segment, Laws Amongst Laws. carter bill 20 oh yeah omnibus is is it is it not a omnibus it's a creation of municipal political party omnibus no

Carter 7:31

no it's more uh it's

Zain 7:33

it's an omnibus within scope that's what i was gonna say it's got a lane and then it does a shit i'll give

Zain 7:38

it to you zane i'll

Carter 7:38

i'll give it okay thank

Zain 7:40

what if what if trudeau said that what if trudeau was right here being like bill 20 it's an omnibus bill would you be like justin i'd

Carter 7:46

i'd be like i'm sorry prime minister you're incorrect it's

Carter 7:49

it's not an omnibus you

Zain 7:49

you wouldn't you wouldn't call him what i'm

Carter 7:51

i'm trying to tell you is zane and I'm nicer to you than I would be to the PM.

Zain 7:55

No, I don't think so. That's what I'm,

Carter 7:56

I'm, I'm nicer to you than I would be. For sure, for sure. I don't think so. Carter,

Zain 8:00

Carter, a new bill would give the Alberta government more power over municipalities, including granting cabinet the power to remove councillors from office and forcing councillors to appeal bylaws that the province doesn't like. It also has a creation of political parties at the municipal level, but Carter, it's a pilot project. It's a pilot project only taking place in Edmonton and Calgary. That latter part is what I want to spend spend the bulk of the time on, which is the municipal political parties. It has been telegraphed for a while. It is here. But I'd be remiss to say that there isn't a whole ton of other stuff in here. And Corey, rather than discussing all that stuff in detail, which folks can find on your and Stephen's West of Center appearance, where you somehow forgot my number. And, you know, what are you doing? What are you shrugging? What's this?

Carter 8:45

We weren't supposed to tell you. You

Corey 8:47

You literally literally texted Kathleen while we were recording that particular

Corey 8:51

particular episode. Did I do that? Yeah, you did. It

Carter 8:53

It was pretty fucking needy, is what it was. It was pretty needy. Well,

Zain 8:56

Well, here's what happens. I have to coordinate for the two of you, even though I cannot go on the show, because I'm busy trying to help a political campaign. Not winning one, helping one. I can't go on the show. It's over. But I'm trying to coordinate your lives. I'm giving you guys a solid, and I want to make sure

Carter 9:10

sure it goes well. How is this giving us a solid? How is that helping us at all?

Zain 9:13

Let's just say one of the two of you are harder to get into that door.

Carter 9:20

No comment. Which one?

Corey 9:23

loves me. Steven left like a...

Zain 9:27

What did you leave? Did you shit on the desk afterwards? It was one of those situations? I might

Zain 9:33

sounds like it. I

Carter 9:33

I did not. I was very polite this time. It's

Corey 9:36

blazing glory. You guys

Zain 9:37

guys actually did a tremendous job on the West of Center pod with Kathleen. Emma Graney was the guest. She's great, by the way. Pull

Carter 9:45

Pull your socks up, brother. other well

Zain 9:48

you couldn't host for a shit she couldn't host for a shit that's what i'd say okay um you guys did a great job you guys deep dived on that i'm not going to try to rehash that other than to start with this question cory is

Zain 9:58

is this a big strategic miss by the ucp maybe i'm not even talking about base politics etc but in terms of what they're opening themselves up for on an accountability level here by defanging municipalities as this legislation allows them to do. Are they now just taking the ability to take all the shit that a councillor or a mayor or council and mayor would get together and just wear that themselves? To me, that seems like the most intriguing and perhaps most problematic strategic part of Bill 20, even if I was a supporter of the UCP.

Corey 10:34

Yeah, well, and I certainly believe that they have opened themselves up to all sorts of headaches in the future. We talked a little bit about this at at West of Centre. But here's

Corey 10:43

here's the challenge. You have effectively, by saying cabinet now has the ability to rewrite bylaws, you know, rescind bylaws, get rid of councillors that people don't like, you have effectively made every municipal problem your problem. And there are basically two reasons provinces have municipalities and provinces download responsibilities to municipalities. You can imagine and you can pretend it's because local governance is really important and you want to have that local responsive government that's right there and it's it's ready to deal with the challenges that people have on a local level and

Corey 11:19

and there is some truth to that but another reason that provinces download things to municipalities is because they're fucking headaches and they don't want to deal with them they're a total pain in the ass people are absolutely unreasonable they want to have gold-plated services for everything from From shoveling roads to, you

Corey 11:38

you know, you name it. Like, I want the best rec centers. I want everything perfect. And I don't want to pay a penny in property taxes. Which, by the way, is the only lever you really have as a city. So, it's all agony. It's all pain. And now it's all your problem, provincial government. Because the minute there are decisions made in

Corey 11:57

in any municipality across this province. And there are a lot of municipalities across this province where somebody thinks, that's not right. right they're gonna start lobbying cabinet

Corey 12:08

cabinet they're gonna start going out there and saying i

Corey 12:11

don't like this bag bylaw i don't like this upzoning i don't like in tabor that now we have a a new stop sign like you fucking name it and

Corey 12:20

and they are now the responsible authority and they're gonna start hearing from people on all sorts of stuff where before they would say take it up with your counselor reasonably so right so i mean i do wonder if their eyes are not bigger than their stomachs on this one because yes it does afford them the authority that you can imagine people wanting to have when you're in power and you say well i don't like that and i'm i'm the province and so we'll change technically they're

Zain 12:45

they're a creation of me so like someone's finally got to fucking do this shit and we're gonna do it absolutely

Corey 12:49

absolutely but you are also getting all of those headaches and i just i do not know if at the end of the day it's worth it for the provincial government carter

Zain 12:58

carter there's so much to discuss uh but i want to ask the same question to you Do you agree that this is a strategic hole that they've left in here? And if it is, can we work together to try to fill that strategic hole for them? Like, what would you do if you fundamentally realized that

Zain 13:15

that this was, you know, what it was going to open you up to, which is other people's shit is now your shit, even in the most indirect fashion. But first, give me a sense. Do you agree with the analysis of Corey? Well,

Carter 13:24

I'm totally glad you asked this question, because, you know, we did a we did almost an hour long show on West of Center, and this was the only thing I agreed with Corey on.

Carter 13:32

So I'm glad you opened it up this way so that we could get

Zain 13:37

harmony. Well, this harmony will

Zain 13:39

needed for the next part of this segment. Yeah.

Carter 13:43

I think that the McIver's already starting to set the stage for it by saying, you know, it's only been it's only they've only taken action against the municipality once in the last while. i would anticipate that they would be very reluctant to uh to use this and i think that what they should do is say this is only going to be used in the most egregious of examples and

Carter 14:05

nothing that is before council right now nothing that is imagined by council right now nothing that we can see is actually going to trigger this trigger this law we have set such a high standard for ourselves that

Carter 14:17

that and you know one one high standard is public health um that's That's where we have to reach to. And there may be other high standards, but that's the one that we can articulate right now. And the rest are going to be super

Carter 14:31

super high standards. So we're not going to use this to, you know, right away, they could repeal this land use bylaw thing if it passes after

Carter 14:41

after this marathon public hearing. They could totally repeal that or force city council to repeal it.

Carter 14:48

But I think that that sets too low a standard. And then you're really going to be stuck in the situation that Corey articulated, and I 100% agree with. Way to go, Corey.

Zain 15:00

How do you feel this pothole, this political pothole, so to speak, Corey? Yeah. What would you be doing if you're the UCP and McIver right now? I

Corey 15:06

mean, for sure, the framing that Stephen has said, I mean, McIver has basically said things to this effect, this is what they're going to say, this is what they're going to try to do. But make no mistake, this is a like a very tempting, very alluring power to use, right? A cabinet meets regularly, you know, at least once a week, more than that during session, maybe slightly less than that during the summer, but basically perpetually is my point. And anytime something comes up, they'll have this temptation to maybe intervene because, let's face it, when you've got dozens and dozens of municipalities, there are dozens and dozens of opportunities for somebody to do something that seems wrong or dumb. And you're just going to have these examples come and you're going to have people say, well, if it wasn't built for this, what was it built for? And you'll start to see that pressure build. And, you know, I

Corey 15:56

on West of Center is, you know, I'm old enough to remember when the notwithstanding clause was something nobody was going to use. And if you kind of look at the last 40 years, just the increased frequency with which it's being used across the country, really, I think tells the entire story of this, right? Like, you're going to see people hesitant at first and a little less hesitant, a little less, a little less, a little less, and then bam, they're in a lot of fucking trouble. I just think it's going to happen a lot faster than 40 years because of kind of the cadence of all of this. And the Notwithstanding Clause did have kind of this moral consideration that's just not here with this legislation. But

Corey 16:30

But what I find most interesting about this is when Rick McIver talks about this will only be used as the most egregious of examples. And then he used this one example of a mask bylaw in Edmonton superseding the provincial government's authority in health.

Corey 16:46

they they solved that they resolved that you know and if if you're only going to use it for the most egregious of things there is already a way to do that and it's to get the legislature to vote on an act not actually that hard to do and so i uh when

Carter 17:02

when you've got a majority yeah

Corey 17:03

for sure so i think that um i

Corey 17:06

i i think that the solution to the type of problem he's talking about already exists it's It's an act of the legislature for like seriously, deeply egregious things. Fucking call them back. Who cares if it's the dead of summer, if it's a serious, egregious thing, right? But no, what they've done is they've actually created a version of this power that's like the drive-through window of

Corey 17:26

of changing municipal laws. And that's, there's no, they're never going to be able to drive down the road. You know, you're going to be sitting there thinking, I could go through that drive-through right now. I could really go for what's in that drive-through window. And it's so fucking convenient. I don't even need to get out of my car.

Corey 17:43

That's a metaphor, guys.

Zain 17:45

Yeah, I was like, what is he talking about?

Zain 17:46

I'm like, are we getting masks in the drive-thru windows again? Remember we got five free masks? Remember we got those one-ply,

Corey 17:54

masks? They weren't great masks, but they were there. I should have preserved that and tried to sell it on eBay. It was like a relic of Alberta

Corey 18:01

Alberta policy. I'm sure I've got like a bunch somewhere, yeah.

Zain 18:04

Well, you were only supposed to be one per household. What do you mean you got a bunch?

Zain 18:10

Did you extend the pandemic single-handedly? I

Zain 18:11

feel like that's what's happening. I don't know. Hey,

Zain 18:15

here's my transition to the municipal side of things, Carter, which is, if

Zain 18:18

if you are absorbing

Zain 18:20

absorbing this as a city council right now, choose any one, choose

Zain 18:25

choose any single one.

Zain 18:26

Obviously, you got to fight it. You got to have your statement that says, well, no, this is like, this is a threat to democracy. You got to do a version of all that sort of stuff, right? Right. But

Zain 18:38

are you also spending any energy trying to ensure your constituents know that this is any issue that they have with you is now a provincial issue? Like how much energy and how are you are you trying to put into the argument that, you know what, if you have a problem with we, you actually have a problem with them. And how are you being able to do something like that?

Carter 18:59

Well, I would be jumping all over it and saying this is, you know, the provincial government is now claiming responsibility for big issues.

Carter 19:07

I'd be going back to my mental health policy. I'd be canceling my mental health policy. I'd be saying, you know what?

Carter 19:12

provincial government wants to take control of this. I'd be making sure that the housing initiatives and homelessness initiatives would all be slashed. You know how much money we could save if we got rid of all the provincial responsibilities that municipalities were actually doing? We

Carter 19:25

We could save a small fortune. you want your income you want your property tax cut no problem would you actually do that like

Zain 19:31

like if you're advising if you're advising so he tomorrow or gondek tomorrow would you say you know what you guys have taken a lot on and it's clearly they want to take this on would you would you performatively quasi performatively slash

Zain 19:43

slash a bunch of things that are like i'm sorry this isn't the province's lane would

Zain 19:47

would that be your clap back number

Carter 19:48

number one i would do that because i actually believe that that's what should be done i

Carter 19:52

i was against fluoride not because i'm against fluoride but because it's a public health initiative and it should be paid for by the provincial government.

Carter 19:59

The provincial government needs to, at some point, take responsibility for the things that they're supposed to be responsible for. A mental health initiative run by the city is the most inefficient means to do mental health. We should be doing homelessness through the province. It's their responsibility. It's articulated as such in the Constitution. Why the fuck aren't we making them do it? You know, the provincial government's all pissed off when the federal government steps on their toes and does these things. Well, we're

Carter 20:27

we're all pissed. We respect their rights. We respect their opportunity to get these things done. And

Carter 20:32

And now we're going to point to them when things don't go properly.

Carter 20:35

Right. Downtown safety, crime.

Carter 20:37

crime. That's a provincial responsibility. You should talk to those guys.

Carter 20:41

You know, all these things.

Zain 20:43

How would you advise a clapback? And it's, it could be immediate, like Carter's being like slashing certain programs and being like, these are provincial jurisdiction. And clearly, they want to, they want to once again, get involved in things that they've, you know, put on the sidelines for too long. But there's also the argument of ensuring that the population knows what's happening here. And political protection of your council, yourself as mayor, you're to say, you know what, if you have a problem with me, in fact, you can now transfer that problem over to the province. I'm not the issue they are. How would you start thinking about that as a city council? Would you put any time and energy into either of the two things I'd mentioned here? Or would you just straight up fight back against this legislation on its merits and that would be your play?

Corey 21:24

I don't know. I mean, you can kind of imagine that you could put together a very interesting bucket of things to show the province that the people of Calgary or the people of Edmonton or the people of Grand Prairie or the people of anywhere feel strongly that this shouldn't be the case. My goodness, you could put a plebiscite if you wanted, or you could attempt to, maybe the province would stop you. That'd be interesting in

Carter 21:46

in its own right.

Corey 21:48

But on the next one saying, you know, be it resolved, the people of Calgary are strongly opposed to this attack on autonomy, or doesn't even need to be framed like that. Like the people of Calgary believe that municipal

Corey 22:00

municipal government should be autonomous in their scope, and that it's not a good power that they can, it doesn't matter. I don't even know what it is. I'm not going to try to create it there. But, you know, this departmentalization of the cities, trying to make them just an extension of the Alberta, you know, government is very, you

Corey 22:21

you know, I won't even say it's very troubling, because it depends on your worldview here. It's very big, like it's a very big change. And I think it will inevitably force councils to act differently. They'll start thinking about whether they want to be standing up to the province, knowing the province could just push them right over at any time. And it will also mean that a different type of people will try to become councillor, because you're

Corey 22:50

you're not really in charge if you're council and mayor now,

Corey 22:53

now, are you? It's just a very different situation, and it's going to have long-term effects here. And so if you want to fight it as a city, you're going to have to fight it in a

Corey 23:04

a way that it kind of hurts the provincial government standing with the public. And that's not going to be that easy to do, especially if you're the deeply unpopular councils of Calgary or Edmonton. And frankly, that's what I was getting at the heart of, right?

Zain 23:19

right? Like, as deeply unpopular council or council and mayor combos, depending on which city we're talking about here, is there any political upside for you while you fight to also kind of say, well, you know, to

Zain 23:31

to try to start making the case that you're not to blame? Well,

Corey 23:34

no, I actually was just going to say, like, if you really want people to be fighting up against the province, you've got to actually have people from outside of council leading this charge. Because the current councils are so unpopular, I think it's just kind of a bit of a pinata for the government to go after.

Zain 23:51

Right. And we're going to use that to talk about our next segment, Carter, which is, I want to talk about the political party pilot in Calgary and Edmonton.

Zain 24:00

And there are so many questions here. Pilot

Corey 24:03

hilarious concept. Oh, it's

Zain 24:05

it's their term, not mine, to be absolutely

Corey 24:09

Hilarious. Rick McIver, one of the most absurd kind of comments I've ever heard at a moment like this, where Rick McIver said, well, yeah, 70% are opposed to the idea of municipal political parties, so don't worry. Oh, he literally says

Zain 24:22

says that at the press

Corey 24:23

press conference. He does. And then he says, so we're only putting it in 2% of municipalities, Calgary and Edmonton, right? You

Zain 24:30

You know, the biggest ones that cover

Corey 24:31

cover what, like 70% of the population? Well, I don't know because of like the metro areas, but certainly it's half the province's population. Like, what a joke.

Zain 24:41

we know it was going to come. We didn't know what form it would take. Well, now we have a better sense of what form it would take. But that doesn't change the conversation I want to have here, which is this is kind of rare for political operatives like us to have the opportunity to build something net new. The closest thing I'm reminded of, and this is not a perfect comparison, is the hype that people had around cannabis when there was a net new industry that came online and people were like, well, we want to get on the ground floor of this. Whatever it takes to invest it, it's going to last for the next hundred years. Whoever the incumbent players become, they're going to be the incumbent players for the next hundred years in cannabis, a net new industry. That was the hype. That was the talk. Yeah.

Corey 25:19

to tell me about where cannabis went. And what the fuck happened in cannabis? of us like there were a million entrants so many went out of business way overbuilt all of a sudden there were a thousand options and now you're seeing a great reckoning like it was ridiculous i remember you could walk down center street near

Corey 25:34

near where i live here in in chay and uh there were like five of them and there was no way they were all going to survive right in some ways in

Corey 25:42

in some ways not a perfect comparison other ways though maybe less i think you learned might actually be the perfect comparison because this is what's going to happen you're going to have well this brilliant political parties now.

Zain 25:52

This is the rest of the conversation I want to have, Carter, is how should us wide-eyed operatives, strategists, practitioners of the political craft, who've always wanted to brand a party from scratch, name a party from scratch, house a party infrastructure, recruit candidates, things that we've been doing for other mastheads, which we have values alignment, but they're not our own. Oh, my goodness. Maybe if you create this, maybe you you lead this. Maybe you're the perpetual leader of this. Maybe you tell the mayor what to do. Maybe you tell 15 council candidates what to do. Again? Again.

Zain 26:29

These are the machinations I can imagine that are going on in back rooms right now, I was going to say both sides of the spectrum, but across the spectrum is the fairest way to say it. So

Zain 26:39

So what I want is a clear-eyed, strategic point of view in this episode where we spit out to say, how should we think about creating political parties here if the end outcome is we want to create a political party? The Strategist podcast, how are we thinking about this? How are we taking the lessons from previous political creations upstarting, from cannabis, from other startups, from the political dynamics right now between province and city, from the council dynamics of unpopular councils in the two cities we're talking about, to mayors that are struggling with their popularity as well? well, let's have a clear-eyed, one-page memo that comes out of this conversation that gives us a sense of how we should think about this, because we're not like the rest, Carter. We're better than the rest, and we're going to have better thinking than the rest, right?

Carter 27:24

Well, I think we have to start then, if we're better than the rest, we have to start with the money side.

Carter 27:28

And the money side changed significantly in this bill. If Bill 20 is passed and becomes law, TPAs are all but finished. And TPAs were super important in the last number number of elections. Third-party advertisers is what a TPA stands for.

Carter 27:48

They used to be able to get donations worth $30,000. It was going to be $35,000 this time around from corporations and unions to use in election advertising. Now, that donation limit's been dropped to $5,000.

Carter 28:04

At the same time that each individual candidate is able to raise $5,000 from corporations and unions. So why would you set up a TPA? You can already raise $5,000 from each corporation. This is going to be a major cash inflow for candidates.

Carter 28:20

And I mean, when I say candidates, I mean not only mayoralty candidates, but counselor candidates as well.

Carter 28:26

So now if you're thinking to yourself, why would I start a party? Why? You know, because I think you have to begin at, should

Carter 28:33

should I form a party? And one of the reasons why would be to balance off revenue opportunities. the revenue i mean i would assume didn't like most political parties and we don't know this because it's going to be done by regulation um yeah but

Carter 28:47

but most political parties have the ability to balance off where revenues are you know move move money around right

Carter 28:54

right so that if corey's more successful in fundraising than i am then we can move some money from corey's writing into my writing uh one

Carter 29:02

one assumes that that's going to be available so that's one really big reason why why a party becomes very viable right off the bat. The second reason why the party becomes viable off the bat, and this is something that I've struggled

Carter 29:16

struggled with, and we actually did some of this on the Gondek campaign, is marrying ground game, which

Carter 29:22

which happens primarily at the councillor level, with

Carter 29:25

with air war, which

Carter 29:26

which happens primarily at the mayoral level.

Carter 29:28

If you've ever worked on a council campaign and tried to get media attention, it's difficult, right? There's There's only so many of my signs or vandalized stories that you can get into. And they're not going to cover everybody's policy releases unless they're like supremely bad, right? It's super hard to get media attention. So a party gives you the ability to do air war and ground game and marry them together.

Carter 29:56

it also gives you a brand, which is what you were talking about right off the bat. People want to know who they're voting for. and they want to understand they want a simple rubric of how do they make their decision and

Carter 30:07

and a party is a simple rubric of oh this is the center right oh this is the center left oh this is the far left oh this is the the right wing right

Carter 30:17

right and and that's why danielle smith has put this together she believes that the voters have been hoodwinked and

Carter 30:24

now if they just had a party that said we're right wing they're

Carter 30:29

they're going to be the voters will no longer be hoodwinked and they'll be able to vote for the appropriate party so

Carter 30:36

there you go problem solved itself i

Corey 30:38

mean it's such a fascinating i believe you're right but i think it's such a fascinating theory given that in both calgary and edmonton the ndp beat the ucp right

Corey 30:49

so like what is this theory based on stupidity

Zain 30:55

well it is it it is an interesting theory right and i like carter starting with the money here cory and i'm going to go to you in a second right talking about the the the prospective death of tpas third party advertisers the ballooning coffers of individual candidates but carter asks a really interesting fundamental question um should

Zain 31:14

should i start a political party like the binary question of yes and no should i belong to a political party should we start a political party so to speak how are you thinking about that question because in some ways it now kind of looks like political parties are here so we all have to join a political party right is the option to not join and not start up and still be successful on the table to you based on i know this is so limited in terms of how long we've been able to take this in and absorb it but in how you process it is

Zain 31:44

is not doing anything on the political party basis still a viable path you would you you would think i don't think it is for counselors

Corey 31:51

counselors anymore maybe it is for mayor i mean i

Corey 31:53

i think it's a really interesting thing because yeah polling showed 70 didn't want parties but there will be a land rush to parties now because you'll be putting yourself at such a massive disadvantage if you're not a member of a political party for the reasons that steven just said right you'll be able to coordinate you'll be able to share a back-end system you'll be able to share a brand everybody like 14 counselors paying into a brand you know i don't know if they'll literally be paying you hear what i'm saying though like sharing the cost of these things there's just going to be so much better off than the person who goes on their own and tries to recreate an entire political party on their own the brand the policies you know the back-end systems the fundraising apparatus the organizers who will now be perpetual in between campaigns and so you're You're not just walking around trying to find volunteers in the name of Candidate X for the first time, right? So this is, I mean, you would be at such a serious disadvantage, I think, in particular to be a counselor and not be on the ticket. The

Corey 32:55

The reason why I think a mayor might, at least in the short term, still stand a chance as an independent is simply because the game is a little bit different for them.

Corey 33:03

You do have a little bit more ability to pull in, you know, the media and you do have a bigger volunteer base. But the challenge will be over time, over

Corey 33:14

that advantage will also kind of accrue to anybody who's a member of a political party. Because again, of the back end systems, once they exist, they don't right now, right? But after a few elections, those back end systems, those people who always volunteer with Calgary

Corey 33:28

Calgary Tomorrow or whatever the party becomes. Sorry, and just to

Zain 33:31

to be clear, for our party, it's Velji United is what we're calling it. Oh, Velji United,

Corey 33:36

yeah. So you're a Velji United guy. You've always supported Velji United council candidates. Why would you support an independent? And so that's

Corey 33:45

that's the risk. That's what's going to happen now. So that's

Carter 33:48

that's just the reality. They're going to have data. They're going to have money. I mean, the fundraising now has changed so you can raise money in every year instead of just in the final year. year. So a party is going to be in place every, you know, and raising money every single year.

Zain 34:01

year. Probably have an executive director, probably a fundraising chair, probably paid fundraising chair who has to raise three times their salary to justify their payment, kind of like a small nonprofit would, right? Like all these sort of things that are available to a provincial party or available to someone who's had the ability to raise money all year round is now going to find itself into this ecosystem. I appreciate the analysis on the candidate side, but let's keep our hats on as strategists. How are we creating the most attractive political vehicle, Carter? I'm going to go back to you. So first, your analysis was on the money. Then it was the binary question on, should we start a party or not? I'm leaning towards the answer is yes, both from an academic exercise of this podcast, but also to Corey's point, very astutely put, for the counselors that are going to need a home, how do we build the nicest, most welcome, open door, best furnished home for them? What else do we need to think about, Carter? I'm turning it over to you. And Corey, I'll get you to yes and and add some pieces to what Carter's about to say to pick

Carter 34:57

pick a lane, right?

Carter 34:58

right? So that the lane is very identifiable. Are you going to be the center left? Are you going to be the center right? Are you going to be the center? Are you going to be right

Carter 35:05

right wing left wing? Who are you going to be? And how are you going to articulate

Carter 35:08

articulate your your brand using issues, right? So picking on issues. The second thing that I've been working really hard on is finding the headliner.

Carter 35:18

The headliner is going to be everything.

Carter 35:21

The mayor In British Columbia, the mayoralty candidate essentially can start and stop a

Carter 35:27

a party, right? So, you know, the NPA is a big party in Vancouver until it's not. Vision Vancouver is a huge party. You know, Gregor Robertson was the mayor and had control of council. And then it wasn't. Now it's ABC. ABC, um,

Carter 35:44

um, you know, ABC is, and that was just Ken Sims, uh, deciding that he was going to be the candidate and he was going to create a party, a brand new party. And that was going to become the, the, the winner. So the headliner becomes the party, the brand in much the same way that the leader of the provincial

Carter 36:07

provincial party becomes the brand. So like, for example, when you win on June 22nd, zane um you know because it's over uh now we're all gonna

Zain 36:19

we're all gonna be so over

Corey 36:22

oh my lord really upset but what i appreciated was the

Corey 36:26

the subtext there was you you too know it's over thank you for sharing

Carter 36:30

you know we're all gonna be

Zain 36:31

winners regardless carter come on let's just keep going keep going yeah yeah anyways

Carter 36:34

anyways i mean i think the headliner and the the the the the lane and then the third thing the third thing and this is really important is what kind of structures you're going to have in place, right?

Carter 36:43

right? So when you approach a candidate and you say, you know, I'd like you to be the candidate in Ward 13, what

Carter 36:50

what do you bring in that candidate in Ward 13? Well, we've got this headliner. This is our mayoralty candidate. They're going to be super strong.

Carter 36:56

Here's our fundraising apparatus. Here's our databasing apparatus. Here's our volunteer structures. And, you know, do you want to be a part of that? Do you want to just add your name to this already existing infrastructure? Or would you rather go off and create this infrastructure on your own.

Zain 37:14

I'm going to come back to you on a few things you said here, Carter. Corey, can I open up a bracket with you before I go back to you adding to this list and reacting to Carter's additions? The bracket I want to open up with you is structure and headliner.

Zain 37:30

And I'm converging those two pieces that Carter put together in one and to say, who runs this thing?

Zain 37:36

Because in a provincial context, the leader is the leader, right?

Zain 37:39

right? right? The leader of the party is like the leader of the party. In this case, is the mayoral candidate the head of the party? As soon as Stephen Carter finds the candidate for Veldra United, is he handing over the keys and being like, there you go, mayoral candidate, this is your machine now? Or are the strategists, in this case, to be very specific, the three of us in this hypothetical scenario, still running the party? That, you know, if we don't like that mayoral candidate, they don't succeed, Veldra United still keeps going. Our party is still strong, strong, so to speak, you know, that we've got an infrastructure that, you know, yes, the mayoral candidate is the leader, but we're like, we've started this thing, we leave this thing. We're the ones who attracted the organizers, not the mayoral candidate, etc, etc. Talk to me about leadership of

Zain 38:21

a party like this in your mind. Carter, I'll get your thoughts on this, and then we'll go back to the list.

Corey 38:27

Who runs the Democratic Party in the United States? I mean, this is one of the challenges with a new party. I mean, this is what's going to be so interesting about this frankly who runs it is a question that you can sort of define uh organizationally like on a a charter on like a a set of like you know party bylaws but

Corey 38:47

but the reality is over time parties become self-perpetuating or they die either there's a bunch of people who just say i'm a member of this party and yes the leadership is going to change but i'm always here or it

Corey 38:58

it will be very transient vehicles like you see in places like vancouver where they're in they're out they're gone uh you know and and these parties just don't exist anymore and they become like here for a good time and not a long time and

Corey 39:10

and it's still an open question to me what kind of parties we're going to get municipality municipality my assumption is kind of probably that's the type of party we'll get rather than these big establishment parties that are self-perpetuating but time will tell right i do want to say and i do want to underline this

Corey 39:28

this is not blank paper You keep talking about this like it's a blank paper exercise, but one of the challenges, I think, for anybody organizing a party right now is we have councillors. We

Zain 39:40

mayors. I'm getting there. Well,

Corey 39:42

Well, I'm going to get you there faster. One of the interesting things that we are going to have to contend with as cities as we start thinking about how these things come together is that there are existing candidates known as sitting councillors. they have existing positions uh there will be insane opportunity for conflict if you try to put multiple people in the same boat together there they all have volunteers they all have infrastructure they might be able to sign in on principle on something and then really come apart on specifics down the road an issue comes up it could fracture the coalition before the coalition ever runs together and that's a real interesting challenge and that's a challenge that's unique to this time because you could easily imagine if we also didn't have councils until 2024 right

Zain 40:31

until last week when this was

Corey 40:32

was sure right yeah yeah

Corey 40:34

party would create a platform candidates

Corey 40:36

candidates would sign on to that platform either they would be

Corey 40:39

selected as in a primary or self-select and there'd just be there'd be no surprises but the challenge they're gonna have now is they're gonna come together and say i think we're i think we're on the same team yeah let's all agree to be on the same team and And then they're

Corey 40:53

they're going to have to fucking figure it out. And that's a really fascinating challenge for me because it doesn't have that infrastructure I was talking about. There is no kind of democratic party where there's people who are sitting there who are going to help you figure it all out and say, we got to come together for the good of the party. The good of what fucking party? There was no party until 30 seconds ago. So, like, strap in. Like, this in particular, this cycle is going to be fuckwad.

Zain 41:17

fuckwad. Nuts out. Well, here's a question that stems from that, Carter, which is, we'll continue on the list in a second, but I like that Corey kind of sped us up here.

Zain 41:28

How does a strategic

Zain 41:30

strategic courting of existing counselors look like? And at the heart of my question is, is this a gold rush? And is there a first mover advantage? Does speed actually matter here? To be able to say, we've got the best organizers. You know these 10 names? We've got them. You know this back-end sort of fundraising system? We've got the six people that have raised money historically. You know, we already have this. So give to me, like, what your lessons and your model would look like for recruitment. Would speed be part of it? And how would you court existing folks? Or are you of the mind saying, fuck the existing folks? This is unpopular counsel. It's unpopular. I don't care. I'm going to go net new on all of it. How are you thinking about this, Carter?

Carter 42:14

Well, first of all, anybody who's in politics in Alberta would have known that this was coming months ago, right? Probably would have started months ago, probably

Carter 42:24

probably would have pulled together a large number of organizers and probably would have pulled together a large number of potential candidates. Corey brings up an interesting problem with the incumbents. A large number of incumbents would probably be a problem, but no incumbents would probably be a problem too. So, solving all of that would have started, I

Carter 42:43

I think, way before this actual legislation. Carter right now

Corey 42:47

is like the end of, you remember the movie Watchmen? I think it was a sequel to Dave, if I'm not mistaken. It was a fantastic sequel to Dave. The end where he's like,

Corey 42:55

you know, when am I going to do this? I already did it. It happened three months ago, you know? Yeah,

Carter 43:00

Yeah, that's kind of where we are. I mean, I think that this

Zain 43:03

this is just... Let's just pause. The episode titled Corey Ruins Watchmen. uh yeah

Carter 43:08

yeah i think that's but

Corey 43:10

yes spoilers the film spoilers also uh carter

Corey 43:13

carter please continue soft launching whatever project it is you're working on i'm

Zain 43:16

i'm not soft launching anything and here's the thing i saw bruce willis three months

Zain 43:20

dead the whole time it's crazy yeah

Zain 43:23

yeah you know you watch it again with that eye the thing

Carter 43:26

the the the key would be to put together a huge and strong team of people that people feel like okay right um carter's there oh that's really really good right hogan's there holy shit that's fantastic well

Carter 43:40

well zane's not there but no one really seems to give a shit right so but annalise is there so everything's fine strays

Zain 43:47

strays there is there right yes you can't pin you can't pin zayntown worth for shit no

Carter 43:51

no i mean i think that you really want to make sure that you'd have strong organizers you have the ability to do the money you have the ability to say we've got the data structures in place um all of those things are are going to be super important and then when you're courting the the counselors you'd want to make sure that they feel like they've got autonomy that they're in charge of their own process of choosing where they're going to be um but you make sure that you've lined the bed for them you know don't worry your positions that you've taken you're the things that are important to you are important to us you

Carter 44:26

you know we want to make sure that you get re-elected too oh and by by the way, if you don't run with us, we are going to run a full slate, right?

Carter 44:33

right? We are going to run a full slate. And it's not a threat. It's not a threat. It's just an implied threat, an implied reality. We're running a full slate. And if you want to be a part of it, you should be a part of it. And these conversations aren't something that take place in the last year of the preparation. It's something that takes place basically basically for you know two

Carter 44:56

two and a half years before the election because you have to establish trust you have to establish vision and a cooperative vision doesn't come just for the mayors can you know the mayoralty candidate a cooperative vision is going to come from the

Carter 45:11

the entire team right

Carter 45:13

right unless unless you're in craig chandler's shoes you're able to pull together calgary united and just say we're the conservatives which is what craig chandler's doing, right? Calgary United, we're the conservatives.

Carter 45:24

Super easy, except there's probably going to be two or three factions of, well, we're the conservatives. So that's what I'm really looking forward to, seeing how all of these develop.

Zain 45:36

Corey, I'm going to come to you in a second here. But Carter, give

Zain 45:39

give me your answer on the following question.

Zain 45:42

Who owns this thing?

Carter 45:43

Well, I mean, I think that in general, what you'd want to do is you'd want to have some sort of a a large steering committee, right? That there has to be a group of people who are responsible for the direction of the party, especially early, right? If it is just a small group of people, the mayoralty candidate and three

Carter 46:03

three or four others, which is what it was, like Nenshi 2010, six people, right? Gondek 2021, there was maybe five or six when we started. It was a very small It was very easy to begin these campaigns because you don't need a lot of people to get them started. But I think with a party, you definitely need a group of about 50, 60, 75 people who have ownership of the party who come in and I don't want to say argue because argue, you know, perfect in a perfect situation. You're bringing together a group of people who in general agree with one another.

Carter 46:40

But, excuse me, this

Carter 46:42

this group needs to come together and put together the bones of the party. And that needs to be done. I think the bones of the party need to be done before the party legislation or before the

Carter 46:58

regulations are done. The bones of the party need to be put in place. And I'm not the only one who thinks that. that. Craig Chandler's doing the exact same thing. He's putting the bones of his party together right now.

Zain 47:08

Corey, question for you. How would you start thinking of a courting exercise of incumbents? What would you need on the table? Does speed matter to you? Would you go a little bit slower? Would you see how other things play out? Would you let others be on the bleeding edge so you can be on the cutting edge sort of thing in this sense? I'm almost kind of bringing back cannabis as an example, right? Would you let others fail so, you know, you can kind of, you know, see what's true, Through who's who, not necessarily rush it, so to speak. How are you thinking about it? I'm not imposing my view on that. I'm just kind of throwing alternative options on the table.

Zain 47:41

Just like a prime minister would, shouldn't he be hosting a podcast? And that option is, of course, open through employee of the Treasury Board, Doug Wong.

Corey 47:50

So does speed matter? Yeah, it does and it doesn't. I guess here's the thing. Like, everybody who wants to create a political party right now should take, like,

Corey 48:02

a beat and just make sure that they're clear why they are creating a political party, what they actually stand for, the reason that they should exist, and the gap that they feel that nobody else is currently filling right now. Or else you are going to get something like the cannabis situation where, despite there being four other cannabis streets or shops on the street, you're going to open the fifth and you think it's all going to work out great for you. No, that's going to fuck everything up for everybody, right? So I do think that before you even get to like that, the how can you, you should think, should I? And I do want to make sure that that's somewhat underlined there, because otherwise it's going to be chaos over the next bit. it, but I think that's going to be a big problem. In terms of if I was trying to build a party and I was trying to make it the most appealing party possible, especially, so here's what I believe is going to happen.

Corey 48:54

And this is a kind of maybe a long walk to answer your question, but here's what I believe is going to happen. Let's

Zain 48:58

Let's take it. I'm curious.

Corey 49:00

The first version of municipal political parties will be a very light touch. They'll be deeply federated. There'll be this This idea that, but for a couple of core things, no party whip. We all generally believe the same things. We're just going to do what we can and we're going to hang together.

Corey 49:18

And every election after that, that whip will get stronger and stronger until

Corey 49:22

until people ultimately are just cogs in a party machine. That's what I believe is going to happen here because the imperatives of governing will come in. And the first time that they lose a vote, they being the winning coalition, because somebody broke with them because there's a weak whip, they'll say, well, that didn't work. And next time, let's make it more clear. And let's, let's get a little bit more to the party. And let's just keep going on this particular front. So you asked me how I would make an appealing political party right now.

Corey 49:49

I would be offering them that deeply federated option. I'd be saying, hey, we're all going to use the same color.

Corey 49:54

And we believe generally the same things, but we're all on our own. you

Corey 49:57

because that's ultimately that's the most appealing version of a political party to a candidate but

Corey 50:03

but i don't believe it's going to end there ultimately so like the first bit of war will be what's the interesting the first bidding war will be for the lightest touch party and the second bidding war like as it moves on it's going to be a much tighter these

Carter 50:15

these meetings have you been in these meetings i'll let

Corey 50:18

i'll let you i'll let you i'll let you i'll let you i'll let you get in on this in a second but there's almost like oh i am not I'm not involved in anything to do with any municipal party. I actually

Corey 50:27

like municipal political parties at all. Sure,

Corey 50:30

I don't like municipalities.

Zain 50:32

I'm the one ahead of you. Yeah,

Carter 50:33

Yeah, way to go, Daniel. You've got things really going your way.

Zain 50:36

Hey, listen, Carter. This is, Corey brings up two fascinating, like, spectrums, right? Control, I'm going to just put in loose or tight, like, control in terms. And then the other one he put on the table earlier in an answer was the type of shot that you're taking with this political party. party, legacy longstanding or like limited good for the moment?

Zain 50:58

How are you thinking about both of these things in your mind, like both in terms of control and then the creation of a party? This is the creation of Belgium United that the strategists are doing, right? Are we going for a big swing that lasts for a generation? Are we saying, let's just meet the moment? If we need to reconstitute a party for the next cycle, we'll fucking do that for the next cycle. We're just here to meet the moment we can house these people in another banner in another color if we need to uh kind of like how vancouver has done it for a while or at least in recent memory i should say um so to speak how are you thinking about both of these strategic questions control and the type of shot you're taking with putting this brand out putting this infrastructure out on on the table i

Carter 51:36

i think that these are going to be mostly um mostly short-term brands um so you know they're going to be like the jolt cola you know it they're going to be around for a little a while no way zane knows what

Corey 51:50

what jolt cola was you've

Zain 51:51

you've got no romance it seems like you've got no romance with the brand sort of thing at all no really like it's just a vehicle to like i'm

Carter 51:57

i'm a big fan that brands need to reflect the will of the electorate and sometimes that means that brands

Carter 52:03

i'd much rather have a new brand that can win than an old brand that's going to lose so if that trying to shoehorn

Zain 52:10

shoehorn everything being like fuck we gotta wear this color like what we've

Carter 52:13

we've got no Oh my God, the party's more important than winning. No, no, no, no.

Carter 52:19

The whole point is to win. So let's go win first. So that's kind of the way I would think of this is that like ABC in Vancouver, when the NPA was no longer a valuable or winning entity, they just went off and said, okay, fuck it. We're going to create this brand new quote unquote conservative. But I

Zain 52:38

I guess let me be clear on the heart of the question is Corey's statement was he thinks most parties will end up in this limited run sort of way. But the question I have as a strategist is, are you strategizing for a limited run party? And I just want to make sure I ask it in a way that allows like fairness, the fact that we're constructing something. So in that part of our memo where we're like, are we actually shooting for something that lasts a while? Or is this just we're happy to kill this if it needs to be next cycle? Like, how are you thinking about it from From a strategist perspective, most

Carter 53:10

most likely way to get your political party to the next election is to win the first election.

Carter 53:17

Then you will have incumbents and then those incumbents will be part of continuing it forever. Right.

Carter 53:22

Right. The longer you just stay in power, the longer is the length of the life of the party. If you lose right off the bat and you don't get win any seats, no councillors are elected under your under your platform. for him, you

Carter 53:34

you know what? That party's going away. And I suspect there'll be five or six significant parties in this campaign. And of those five or six parties, at least four of them won't

Carter 53:45

won't elect anybody and they'll be gone.

Zain 53:49

Corey, I've got another sort of sideline question and then I'll jump back to the list for further analysis and additions.

Zain 53:55

Value or no value in having parallel parties across the two pilot municipalities? Or

Zain 54:02

Or are are Edmonton's issues, Edmonton issues, and Calgary issues are Calgary issues, and there should be no Velji United in both cities so that people can rally around the call of Velji, which is, of course, perpetual availability to run. That is our MO and our North Star.

Corey 54:18

I don't know. That's an interesting question. There's economies of scale that you can

Corey 54:24

increase if you're in multiple cities. And you have versions of this, right? You can have sharing back-end systems, sharing infrastructure, sharing brand is the more extreme version of it. Beyond that, sharing kind of governance that would then allow everybody to sort of collectively across two cities create policy is the most extreme. I think that most extreme version, it's hard to imagine having, like, I've basically split my adult life between Calgary and Edmonton. I'm largely a citizen of both cities. They're very different cities, you know, and they're They're seized with very different things. And it's hard to imagine that it's going to be one size fits all there. But yeah, I can certainly see some benefit of sharing some of the existing infrastructure. And in a funny way, if

Corey 55:09

if the government hadn't said effectively, you can't use an existing political party, it can't be like the local NDP, the local UCP. UCP,

Zain 55:17

UCP, right, right. There

Corey 55:17

There might have been a strong push to having a local NDP and a local UCP because it would certainly allow the sharing of the infrastructure. structure but there will always be that countervailing force that that makes you part of a bigger picture that can cause challenges as well so yeah i don't actually know the answer that that's a fascinating question like where is kind of the optimal size of this particular organism like too big and it it just you know it's too unwieldy and too small and it's just it can't feed itself it's just not efficient enough and i don't know where that is but i do think at the very least there will be strong collaboration and coordination coordination between parties in the two cities, because that makes sense. Because you're going to be dealing with the same problems at the same time in the same way on the same schedule. There

Carter 56:02

There are... Arno, what do you think?

Carter 56:04

You know, in the last election, the telephone calls between the organizers back and forth were significant. There's only a certain number of people, you know, so there will likely be some sort of loose affiliation or loose association. I would not expect to see co-branding. I think that that would be disastrous

Carter 56:24

disastrous like tell me

Zain 56:26

me less about what you expect to see tell me more about what you would do right like you're strategizing yeah yeah tell me what you would do that's what i'm curious would you co-brand would you find a similar color palette put edmonton in front of another put calgary in front of another one no

Carter 56:38

no i mean i would be working really hard to make sure that each city felt like it had its own own structure that and but that both of the you you know, both structures shared certain DNA so

Carter 56:51

that they can work together afterwards.

Corey 56:54

Yeah, again, it depends on what you're trying to do. But here's both a prediction and if I were trying to do a certain thing, a situation where I would share branding between cities.

Corey 57:05

Let's keep in mind, 70% of people don't want municipal political parties. One of the first municipal political parties we are going to see is basically the no political parties political political party like independent voices party or the what was originally in bc the non-partisan alliance when it started as people saying we don't want political parties morphed into the right-wing party but that's that's kind of the genesis right right right and you're you are going to see potentially people who say we don't want parties we want to share the infrastructure though for strong voices who are independent who don't actually have a party whip of any you know any any kind of substance whatsoever, I

Corey 57:41

I can almost guarantee some version of that's going to occur. Now, whether it will even be successful enough to be resonant in the next campaign, open question, my guess is no. But it's certainly possible. And there's no reason that that couldn't share branding between two cities.

Zain 57:57

Talk to me about branding for a second, Corey. Carter's kind of said, you know, like pick a lane was one of his items on the list, he also says, pick a headline or discuss the structure. We've talked at length about Calgary And Edmonton, in a sense, we've talked at length about, you know, the type of swing and control. So we'll add those to the list. Talk to me specifically about branding. How would you think about it here? Any lessons? Because we could easily overcomplicate branding, but we could also underthink it in certain ways. You know, one of the ways we could potentially underthink is kind of the example I threw out there, which I also wouldn't advocate for, which is, you know, create a vehicle, slap Edmonton in front of one another, one Calgary in front of another one, call it a day, right? Like, make it that obvious. How would you start thinking about branding if you were starting a political party as a strategist? Well,

Corey 58:42

Well, you have a couple of options, and this is not a complete list, but it's kind of a good starting point when you're thinking of political parties. You have political parties that name their

Corey 58:51

their philosophy in the name of the party. Liberal, conservative. Oh, I immediately know what those things are. You could imagine, for example, centrist, moderate, being names that might be resonant in a city. Those kinds of things could kind of pull out there. you

Corey 59:05

you have uh names that are in some ways more

Corey 59:10

more about where you want to be right like so coalition for the future of quebec cac

Corey 59:16

right and maybe it's a name that is actually saying nothing at all and you're trying to give yourself that flexibility saskatchewan party alberta party bc united right that's a different version of the name as well and and there are names that kind of fall in the the cracks in between i'd say actually new democratic party is one of those where there

Corey 59:36

was historically a new party and then there was this democratic guy all smashed together and you know there's reasons for the name but the reasons aren't particularly well remembered at this point it's kind of long-standing and goes back so lots of choices there i think the reality is

Corey 59:52

the most edifying names are off the table because liberal and conservative are both going to be namespace you can't use because those are the names of existing parties i new democrat even in the canadian context means something to us can't use it right and

Corey 1:00:06

and uh and so i imagine you're going to get a lot of ones that are talking about calgary's future edmonton tomorrow you know calgary and for the next century whatever it is like you're going to have stuff that is kind of like like the kind of the

Corey 1:00:22

the bromides. So we'll see where it goes.

Zain 1:00:26

Carter, any thoughts? Carter, was any of those names on your list? None of those names

Carter 1:00:29

names were on the list. Okay.

Zain 1:00:31

Calgary. Tomorrow, today, Calgary. Calgary, in tomorrow.

Carter 1:00:36

Yeah, I mean, I worked for Surrey Forward. I worked, I mean,

Carter 1:00:40

mean, there's a whole bunch of these things. I mean, it

Carter 1:00:42

it doesn't really matter what the

Carter 1:00:44

the name, like the name again is one

Carter 1:00:47

element of the brand, right?

Carter 1:00:49

right? Right. And the brand itself is going to be substantively your mayoralty candidate. So how does how do you fit the mayoralty candidate and the brand name together? And

Carter 1:00:59

And that's kind of, I think, where, you

Carter 1:01:04

I could see all kinds of different names and names and brand positions being talked about. And the most important thing is going to be how much are we reflecting back to the population what they care about? because that's what the brand should be is we are reflecting back what you care about i could see a no um a tax freeze party could

Carter 1:01:28

could work out i mean i wouldn't name it that but

Corey 1:01:32

know what about like a sovereignist party for crescent heights east better known of course as chay i

Carter 1:01:37

i can see that mostly in ward seven yeah

Carter 1:01:40

not anywhere the checkists that

Corey 1:01:41

that we could be the checkists Chekists? Chekists, I

Corey 1:01:45

Chekists sounds fine. Chekists sounds racist. I don't know.

Corey 1:01:49

Maybe Google that before you say Chekists sounds fine, but let's move on.

Carter 1:01:52

on. Yeah, I think that's not necessarily what you think it is. I'm not going to Google it. I think

Zain 1:01:55

think it should be fine. Hey, Carter, final question. We're launching Velja United. We've taken all these considerations, money. We've talked about candidates. We've talked about how we court candidates. We talk about picking a lane, pick a headliner structure, et cetera.

Zain 1:02:10

Would you launch your party with your headliner? Is that like a like when we go we have to have the top of the ticket announced or do you announce the fact that you've got infrastructure and i ask you this because cal reunited which is well i believe that's what it's called if i'm not mistaken uh trying to like carve out the political lane no

Zain 1:02:28

no candidate associated with it yet at least from what i can yeah no

Zain 1:02:32

do you do you have um

Zain 1:02:35

uh do you have your headliner announced simultaneously well

Carter 1:02:41

well i think that's going going to be a function of the actual rules um so

Carter 1:02:47

can raise money now so

Carter 1:02:50

so maybe yeah it looks to me like at the very least the headliner's name is going to soft launch as you're raising the money um so i

Carter 1:02:58

i i think that a hard launch of the campaign brand and the headliner together i think would probably be the best possible scenario cory

Corey 1:03:08

cory what do you think it

Corey 1:03:09

it just occurred to me as we're talking one of the things that has often been a consideration for people running for mayor or even council is they announce and they're in and that's kind of it and often they have to leave their jobs or or whatnot but this also creates a vehicle which which you can create like a party as a stalking horse oh well i'm just putting my efforts behind this cause this idea that we've got to make you know a better calgary and so then all of a sudden like like you could just come at the last minute but like all of the infrastructure is there and fundraising's there for you stop coming

Carter 1:03:44

coming to my meetings man fuck off carter's

Zain 1:03:47

carter's making a stock in horse okay we're gonna leave that segment there create on to move it on to our final segment or over under steven carter in our lightning round uh still i'm just gonna check on the record yep still doing it for you oh great

Zain 1:04:01

five municipal political parties in calgary over or under in your your mind i

Zain 1:04:06

think it'll be over it'll

Zain 1:04:09

it'll be over cory over on drone five i

Corey 1:04:12

i think uh way over uh it's way over crazy yeah i think it'll be crazy and i also think that uh tyler durden was a figment of the imagination of the narrator in the movie fight club in 1999 and

Corey 1:04:28

and it was all in his head did

Zain 1:04:29

did you know that's always eating something in that movie did you know that i look at every scene well

Corey 1:04:33

well he's always eating something in oceans 11 too it's kind of

Carter 1:04:36

of his thing i think he's just got a thing i think that that that he's a food actor some

Carter 1:04:41

some people are hair actors like cory's a hair he's a food

Zain 1:04:43

i'm a hair actor yeah

Carter 1:04:44

yeah and uh do

Zain 1:04:46

do you think like the food gives him confidence to like execute the scene i

Carter 1:04:49

i think he likes the casualness like

Corey 1:04:52

you know he's like i'm yeah so handsome look

Corey 1:04:54

look how casual i just like this yeah i don't have to he's a great actor i do you like all the oceans movies did

Carter 1:04:59

did you guys know that in oppenheimer for another

Carter 1:05:02

they built a bomb

Carter 1:05:04

did you that is a bit

Zain 1:05:08

oh you mean in the movie no

Carter 1:05:10

no i meant in real life i'm

Carter 1:05:13

i'm reading a book called right now it's called nuclear

Carter 1:05:18

it's really uplifting carter

Zain 1:05:21

carter uh tell me how bill 20 will age uh worst and best part of bill 20 in your mind

Carter 1:05:26

Worst part about Bill 20 is the recall and changing of bylaws, which Corey kind of articulated very well at the beginning of the podcast. Best part is that they've changed the money. And now we get money

Carter 1:05:40

money back into politics. And I think that that's good.

Zain 1:05:44

Worst and best, Corey, Bill 20, what do you think?

Corey 1:05:47

Yeah, I mean, if you're a big fan of municipal government, for sure. sure, the worst is that they've just entirely subordinated municipalities. And I do think that's going to have an effect on the quality of candidates in the long run. It's going to change a lot of things about municipal government. And I do ultimately worry that this becomes the departmentalization of municipal government. And it's just, it's going to have effects. So probably I would say that's the worst. I have to say that's the worst. The best part, man

Corey 1:06:16

the money i guess probably there are things in it i don't mind in general like there's 29 things and i'd say 20

Corey 1:06:25

20 of them are fairly unobjectionable you

Corey 1:06:28

you know fine um they're fine they're fine like they're the money is okay because it really was a problem with all of these third-party advertisers and maybe we'll at least get a good case study as to whether this will now end it i guess we'll learn soon if third-party advertisers were a consequence of our very tight campaign laws or not right like that will become clear as a result of this next little bit that'll be interesting i'll

Corey 1:06:52

i'll tell you and i i said a version of this on cbc i

Corey 1:06:56

i don't mind getting rid of the tabulators i think they'd become such a crazy distraction for people oh

Carter 1:07:01

oh my god i

Corey 1:07:02

i don't think it's like a great thing that's happened in it but But if

Corey 1:07:06

if we have a bunch of people who are so deeply concerned about it, let's just count them with our hands again. It's fine. Yeah. I mean, the

Carter 1:07:13

the same thing with flat

Carter 1:07:14

flat earthers. We're all junkies.

Carter 1:07:17

flat earthers are right, and we won't have to worry about it anymore.

Corey 1:07:21

Okay. There are consequences of that. There are no real consequences of just counting the ballots by hand. What are the consequences of counting the ballots

Carter 1:07:27

ballots by hand? It's going to cost more money and take a longer time. Well,

Corey 1:07:30

Well, democracy is worth it.

Carter 1:07:32

Oh, my God. Just why fucking tabulate

Corey 1:07:34

tabulate it? I mean, there are people like us who sit up there and we really worry about the results are of an election, you know, and we want to know.

Corey 1:07:43

But it doesn't actually change the results of the election. It's kind of the sports mentality of it. Neither does using a tabulator.

Carter 1:07:48

tabulator. It doesn't change the

Corey 1:07:49

results of the election. It's 10% of the population. It's not worth it. Are

Corey 1:07:53

you saying it creates the underlying

Zain 1:07:55

underlying condition for at least some people to say, shit, like, the election was stolen. They used tabulators. Let me

Corey 1:08:05

broaden my point. Nothing is more important in an election than trust. You have to trust that the system has worked. So anything we add in that erodes that trust has to be done very, very carefully. And the benefit has to exceed the potential consequence there. And so we do things like special ballots, because we think it's very important people have the ability to vote, right? That's a benefit that we really feel way outweighs the fact that it erodes the trust a little bit. People say, I don't really know how these special ballots work. People are just getting them. I'm never seeing these people. They're not showing up. But we weigh that that special ballot's more important. Similarly with advanced polls. Now it's not all on the same day. You've got to put boxes in a certain area. They're not being watched around the clock by all of the scrutineers, as used to be the case in elections in our lifetime, right? But we say it's worth it. It's worth it because you don't have to be available at a certain time. We're making it so that everybody can vote. That's a central tenet of democracy. So again, we're weighing these things and we're saying it's worth it. The challenge is, with tabulators in my mind, the upside's just not there. There's no fucking upside besides our own amusement on election night. And so you can say, yeah, it's a tinfoil hypergrade. Yeah, they're a bunch of idiots. Yeah, it's crazy.

Corey 1:09:20

I don't know if I disagree with you, but it's not worth it. You think they're

Carter 1:09:24

they're going to stop complaining because there's tabulators? No tabulators? You don't think they're going to complain about something

Carter 1:09:32

good. Then let's deal with the next thing,

Corey 1:09:33

thing, too. Then let's

Corey 1:09:34

let's deal with the next thing, too. Stop being so flip

Carter 1:09:37

flip about democracy and trust. Stop being so willing to engage a fringe minority that's just stirring up shit. And they're going to continue to stir up shit. And every time we placate them, they just get weirder and fucking weirder. We live

Corey 1:09:52

live in the country with these people. We have to stop hand-waving away 10% of people. Like, oh, fuck them. They're the fringe. We've got to stop doing it. We've

Carter 1:10:01

We've got to keep

Corey 1:10:03

top of that, you want to know what my perfect voting system is? I don't know if it's perfect. But what I think is we've got to kill all of these advanced days. I've begun to hate them. Because you get weird situations where Sean Chu in Calgary, for example, right? right?

Corey 1:10:18

Make it a holiday, put it on a Wednesday, so it's the middle of the week, so you can't just make a long weekend out of it. Have everybody vote there, and

Corey 1:10:26

and be done with it. The simplicity of it, just allowing people to see cause and effect, action, you know, result, just something to be said for it. There is something to be said for simplicity in a democracy.

Zain 1:10:40

We're going to leave it there. We're going to leave it there, Stephen Carter. That's a wrap episode 1300 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velji. With me as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan, and we, maybe not me, but Justin Trudeau and these two guys. We'll see you next time.

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