Episode 1295: Elevator to hell

Zain 0:01

This is a strategist episode 1295. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, and we've got Stephen Carter. Carter, there

Zain 0:09

there are so many things we need to talk about, none of which involve politics. Now, let me address the first one. This is the elephant in the room, which is we're recording Monday evening.

Zain 0:21

Folks might be saying, well, hold on, aren't you supposed to record Sunday evening? Well,

Zain 0:25

Well, Corey, we've got a clause. Nobody, nobody, nobody thinks. Oh,

Corey 0:29

Oh, no, no. But this

Zain 0:30

this particular time. They're so consistent.

Zain 0:33

time, it was contractual. This time was contractual. Because we have a rule, we have a contract, Carter, that every time our sponsor's website is down, we can't record. Yeah.

Zain 0:43

And Flair Airlines, they had their website down yesterday, causing travel mayhem for tens of people. Tens of people. But of course, contractually, we could not turn these mics on. you couldn't hear this this beautiful uh dulcet tone that you're hearing right now folks and

Corey 0:59

more than contractual it's also technical i mean we share a back end with flair it's

Zain 1:03

it's moral sorry it's a moral

Corey 1:08

yeah we record we record on the same intercom system that's used in flight uh when when they're not using it that's that's how we actually record the podcast

Zain 1:17

podcast people would be surprised but we do ship our bikes out every sunday monday tuesday or wednesday whenever we record and thursday uh back to flare airlines uh it is uh it's one of the reasons that that they're never able to get back to folks carter yeah

Carter 1:31

yeah well you know listening to our podcast is what keeps them flying no

Zain 1:41

of you die when carter's business is a joke it

Carter 1:45

wasn't really even a joke it was just

Zain 1:47

i was saying item number two we'll never we'll never get to the show if we don't keep going carter item number two um doug

Carter 1:56

oh i'm glad you brought that up yeah that

Carter 1:59

that was on a

Corey 1:59

a patreon so i'm glad we're bringing it into the main let's

Zain 2:02

let's talk about doug wong okay let's talk about doug wong carter talk about the history of doug wong where things stand with doug wong actually

Carter 2:07

actually i have a cease and desist letter from the department of finance of the government of canada we are no longer allowed to talk about doug wong so i'm I'm going to ask you not to bring it up on this particular episode. Corey, can we go back and edit this section out?

Corey 2:22

I mean, can and will. Different things.

Carter 2:25

because the cease and desist made it sound like I personally was going to be responsible. To be clear,

Corey 2:31

clear, not the podcast.

Carter 2:33

It doesn't concern me.

Carter 2:35

I didn't think that we said anything that bad about Doug Wong. And I implore our listeners to go back and listen to our latest Patreon to determine whether or not we said anything particularly horrible. terrible

Zain 2:45

here's a lesson for anyone if you make plans with carter don't ghost on him okay

Zain 2:49

okay real so you get the doug wong treatment see this

Carter 2:51

this is okay it

Carter 2:53

turns out that he didn't actually ghost me okay

Carter 2:56

okay yeah this is why we got the cease and desist letter wait

Zain 3:00

wait wait wait what's the real story okay i can't literally can't

Carter 3:04

can't talk about it right now and i

Carter 3:06

i think it's really imperative now now it's really imperative that cory find the internal fortitude to go back and delete this section okay

Carter 3:15

okay did you see the wrong

Zain 3:16

wrong chili the cease and

Carter 3:17

and desist letter is very clear okay it is very clear it is do not talk about doug wong anymore on the podcast so let's do a let's do a strong break here

Zain 3:30

we know what happened here we know what happened here how about

Carter 3:32

about that afl huh

Zain 3:35

carter ended up at the wrong beaver tails there's

Corey 3:37

there's multiple locations now it's It's not just the one in the market

Corey 3:44

Carter, Carter. Rookie Ottawa

Zain 3:45

Ottawa move. Oh, yeah. Rookie Ottawa move. No one who works at the Department of Finance wants to meet you at the Byword Market, Beaver Tales.

Zain 3:53

They're definitely talking about the other one.

Carter 3:56

There's definitely some serious mistakes were made. Corey,

Zain 3:59

Corey, we're moving on to point number three. This one is close to our heart because sometimes we acknowledge our errors on this show. Rarely, but we acknowledge our errors on this show. So

Zain 4:09

So we own the strategist.ca. We

Zain 4:12

We don't own strategist.ca. We used to. Oh, this is where the error comes in, Corey. Because right now, if folks go to strategist.ca, you will see that beautiful domain name.

Zain 4:24

Corey, you can buy it. And

Zain 4:27

And it's a pretty penny. But

Zain 4:28

But I feel like with

Zain 4:30

with all the domains we own, if we cash in on all of them right now, we can purchase this domain. Are you ready to do it? it

Zain 4:37

so you're thinking domain auction domain

Corey 4:38

domain i see how much money we get for disgraced former mayor patrick brown.com for example i

Zain 4:44

i think what we do okay i'm just putting this out on the show right now we

Zain 4:49

we list all of our domains every single one we have on auction right now and

Zain 4:54

and we know that the major purchasing class for these domains are going to be our listeners so if they like anything that we have right now we price them out 500 bucks a pop you know why Why? Because it's for a good cause. It's to create enough cash for us to buy strategist.ca, which sits at just under seven grand right now.

Corey 5:13

Now, I assume you're also including the strategist.ca on that list. See if we can get 500 bucks for that as well, right? Yeah,

Zain 5:20

it's got to be 500,

Zain 5:22

We might as well do it, Carter. I think we have to do it.

Carter 5:27

I think we have to. How did

Corey 5:27

lose that one? How did we do that? I blame you.

Carter 5:30

you. Do you remember there was a guy who left the podcast to go work?

Zain 5:37

No, I... It was Zane, right? It was definitely not me. It was definitely not me.

Zain 5:42

Carter, it was you.

Zain 5:44

What are you typing out, Carter? You're

Corey 5:45

You're clearly writing emails during

Corey 5:48

during the show? Is that what's going on? This is a level of multitasking

Corey 5:52

can't get behind, Stephen. No,

Carter 5:53

No, I'm actually preparing. There's a lot that I have to get ready for the show, and I didn't get ready, so...

Zain 6:00

Okay, well, this topic's going to come out of left field. Let's move it on to our first segment, our first segment, Jenny from the same block. Guys, I want to talk about Jenny Byrne. We have talked about Jenny Byrne on this show, for those that are underrated.

Carter 6:12

underrated. There's been a lot, yeah. Well,

Zain 6:13

Well, there is a new development that I think is worthy of bringing up and worthy of discussing. So last week, the liberals came out with another attack on Jenny Byrne. This is the conservative advisor. She's a caucus advisor to Pierre Polyev. She's a longtime conservative strategist. She ran the Harper campaign in 2015. Well, on

Zain 6:35

on Thursday, the Globe and Mail last Thursday reported that a federal lobbying firm is located at the same office as Jenny Byrne and Associates. This firm was set up on the same day that Pierre Polyev won his leadership. It's called Four Check Strategies. They use the same back end as Jenny Byrne and Associates. And, of course, this firm does not include Jenny Byrne Carter. The liberals are saying this is a

Zain 6:57

a smoking gun, that the same person who's influencing Pierre Polyev is now having a GR firm influencing clients, giving them access. It's using big words like lobbying and back end and strategist, all those words that buzz the media. My question to you guys here is that is this a thing? And I ask it in two ways. Is this a thing from a real perspective? And then is this a thing from a potent political attack? Let's start with the second part first. Corey, can I start with you on this? Yeah, please go ahead.

Zain 7:34

Oh, that was feeble.

Carter 7:37

We're going to have to get some noise that you put in in post. Yeah.

Zain 7:42

you opening cans from your 1970s Olympic can edition? What What is this, Berlin Olympics edition that you're drinking Coca-Cola from? Corey, here's the thing.

Zain 7:53

Is this a thing from a political attack? Are the liberals on to something? Same question to you in a second, Carter.

Corey 8:01

I do think that there's something to it in the sense that it's got, it's kind of like shady things bingo, right? And if you dab enough of those squares, you start to think something really nefarious is happening here. And you have things like new company, same day, right? That's number one, right?

Corey 8:20

Shared backend, you know, burn not on this list, on the other lists there. It starts to feel like something is up. It really does. But we'll

Corey 8:29

we'll get there. I'll just throw on the table. Like a lot of these things are fairly common within the consulting industry more generally. we can talk about whether they're right or appropriate or not but um you know having a lot of business cards in your pocket and having some of your colleagues conflicted out of some of those businesses and you not being in others also pretty common in consulting but

Corey 8:51

but um but because it has all of these elements and it creates all of this smoke yeah i think it could be because people will start to assume that there there is fire there and you know i don't immediately see fire myself. But certainly, it fills that

Corey 9:07

that bingo card. And so people are going to make some assumptions about what's going on.

Zain 9:13

a there there from a political attack perspective?

Carter 9:16

No, Corey's wrong. There is no there there. It is just trying to dig up dirt on Jenny Byrne. I mean, if you really want to dig up dirt on someone, try Pierre Polyev. He's the leader of the party. Jenny Byrne is an advisor who's barely on the payroll. I mean, it has no impact on the overall scheme of things. And I think the Canadians will see right through it. There's lots of reasons not to like Pierre Polyev. Jenny Byrne's behavior is not one of them.

Zain 9:49

Corey, what do you think of that? Carter's with a definitive no. He's saying this is not a thing. The Liberals seem to have, This is the second time they've gone into this well, right? First time was Jenny Byrne and Loblaws. This is where we had a long episode where we kind of talked about, you know, since when did strategists and advisors become part of the political attack circle, so to speak, become targets? But Carter's saying no, there's not a there there.

Corey 10:14

Well, he makes a good point in the sense that she is not on any ballot, right? And I just don't know how much people are going to hold her actions against Pierre Polyev. But there

Corey 10:25

there are instances where people hold the actions of the advisors against the leader, because as we talked about in that episode, the leader gets to pick their team. And so in a way, the leader should be more accountable for the actions of that team of advisors than they are of the MPs or the MLAs that they just end up stuck with a lot of the time. And so I'm not sure you can say it's 100% all free and clear for Pierre Polyev. The other thing is it does sort of suggest, again,

Corey 10:52

again, the facts need to all come out. The facts on their surface are not as scary to me as perhaps they're being made out to be by the Liberal Party. But there

Corey 11:02

there is a certain hypocrisy charge that can be made as well, right? Pierre Polyev said, no lobbyists, I'm going to get them out of here. And then immediately, like another lobbying firm is set up by his most senior of advisors, or the people around his most senior of advisor would be the more accurate way to put it. And so, yeah, maybe, maybe, probably, Pierre Polyev skates. Could it be a pain in the ass for a bit for him? Could it come up at inopportune times? Could it be used as a reinforcing piece if there are other ethics challenges?

Zain 11:38

Carter, here's where the liberals have taken it as a step to, and I'm curious to hear your analysis of this strategy. They have talked about, they've once again reintroduced the line that we talked about a few episodes ago that was introduced by Frazier, Pierre Polyev doesn't care about you, right?

Zain 11:53

right? And they now say he's working for big corporations. Were they up all night on that one? Yeah, it's really good stuff.

Zain 12:00

working for big corporations and rich friends. And what they try to do is they try to take the Jennyburn attack, they put it in together in this 40-second video that they've produced, which seems like it could have a 30-second ad cut. I don't know if that's true, but I'm

Zain 12:12

kind of mentioning this. They talk about Jenny Byrne. Then they talk about Melissa Lansman, who used to be a lobbyist herself, worked for Walmart and other companies. And then they play Pierre Polyev's clip where he says, and I'm paraphrasing here, corporate lobbyists are useless, right? They mean nothing. So they're trying to use his own words against him. They're trying to draw Jenny Byrne into this. Is that an effective political attack? And if no, I want to talk about what could make it better if this is a lane they are committed to, Carter.

Carter 12:36

No, I mean, it's it's absolutely not an effective political attack. It is a it's something that you're trying to maybe partisan hacks will get excited about. But even then, I think that most partisan hacks know more

Carter 12:51

more lobbyists than they know actual politicians. This is just it's just lame on many levels. I mean, does this rise to the scandal level of foreign interference or the We Charity scandal or any of the different things that have actually hit and stuck to Justin Trudeau? This doesn't seem to fit any of those categories. And and I'm not sitting, you know, I'm no Pierre Polyev enthusiast, but I just can't see how this actually has any impact at all.

Zain 13:22

Corey, what do you think here? Like, they're trying to, you know, they didn't stick on the Jenny Byrne thing, but they said as soon as it, they almost seem to have a part two ready, right? Where it's like the Jenny Byrne thing comes out, they try to push it, it has a day of its thing. And then their part two was, oh, we're going to use Pierre's words against him about his principal advisor. Two inside baseball? Give me analysis and then let's make it better for them in terms of what would be more effective and potent. Well,

Corey 13:47

it's okay. So as we're talking about this, I get actually less enthusiastic for the liberals doing this, because it goes back to one of the things that I've said about them for a long time.

Corey 13:56

I don't really know what their plan is for the next election. But can I ask you, too

Corey 14:00

too cozy with big business and has ethical failings? I just say those words, which political party comes to mind? immediately

Carter 14:06

immediately think of Justin Trudeau.

Corey 14:08

I mean, this is the challenge, right? This is one of these charges that seems like it's more easily leveled against you than your opponents. Or are you just trying to bring them down to, quote unquote, your level in the eyes of Canadians? Do we really think Canadians think Pierre Polyev is too establishment? Like he's too connected? Like that's not the fear Canadians have of Pierre Polyev. They have a fear that he associates with wingnuts. It might be one himself, and that he might be an asshole. But they don't think that That he's just too Bay Street. Like nobody thinks Pierre Polyev is too Bay Street, do they?

Corey 14:38

And is that the kind of thing that they want to create of Pierre Polyev? Like this is the brand that they're going to now try to stick him with? Yeah.

Corey 14:45

Because that doesn't seem actually rooted in anything real. And one of the things that we always say here is that, you know, you want to take reality and bend it just a little, right? You want to bend it just a little. Whether you're trying to make a positive story about your candidate, you know, you take their good elements and you just forget about all of the bad ones and you just put the good in. Or when you're talking about your opponents, you take something real about them and you just hyper fixate on those and you just you talk just just a little. But this feels like this

Corey 15:12

this is a thing liberals tell themselves about conservatives. I'm not sure anybody's believed it about the conservatives since since since the modern conservative party was created.

Zain 15:21

Carter, if I am tasking you with taking the raw pieces of what they have here and making the best attack of it, give

Zain 15:30

give me a direction that isn't this one that you're going in.

Carter 15:36

mean, I think that the attack on Pierre Polyev should be around his likability. He's just not a likable person, right? And that

Carter 15:47

like, I'm not sure why you're bringing Jenny Byrne into this, right? Right. Like to me, it's

Carter 15:52

it's not like Jenny Byrne works in the office. It's not like Jenny Byrne is is Gerald Butts 2.0.

Carter 15:59

You know, how are you going after the

Carter 16:02

the Jenny Byrne thing? Why wouldn't you just go after Pierre

Carter 16:06

Pierre Palliev, who's just unlikable? And I mean, I guess you could say, you

Carter 16:12

Jenny Byrne is advising unlikable Pierre

Carter 16:16

Pierre Palliev. have but i'm really struggling with this saying because i just don't see like

Carter 16:20

like i think that they see something that they think is an ethical problem and most canadians will say i

Carter 16:26

i don't understand it's

Carter 16:28

it's you know and they won't pay attention long enough to get it explained to them cory

Zain 16:31

cory if you had to use the raw ingredients in front of you that are presenting jenny burn like i'm not asking you to kind of like you know you are tasked with creating a product out of what you have what would the guiding posts or the the light for you look like in terms of crafting that product well

Corey 16:50

well first of all not every hit is a hit worth fixating on and i'm not saying that they're at this point fixating like this is a pretty limited hit at this point sometimes you just want to put things up and you want to see what what gets directions yeah well you can be really surprised occasionally something will come up which you think is no big deal because you understand some of the mechanics of it and you realize oh wait this is actually a huge fucking deal and um not to detour too much but i immediately think in alberta of the no meat committee branded such but essentially every mla was put on three committees and they got committee pay for that i think it was three right steven but yeah

Corey 17:27

and so everybody got an equal amount of pay and some of those committees were more useful than other committees but at the end of the day all the mlas were basically making they were making the same right there were chairs making making a little bit more, but everybody was making the same.

Corey 17:39

However, then it became a big problem because the committee that literally hadn't met, those MLAs were still getting paid to be on it. Now, were they? I mean, technically, yes, that's what the pay was for. But practically, no, practically, it was just MLAs got paid this much, and they were expected to serve on X number of committees. But if they weren't on a committee, I'm sure they were doing other things. So I could tell you when that first came up, I mean, obviously, there were some elements where I thought, Oh, that's interesting and probably bad for people. But I'll tell you, I also at the time I was working for the Liberal Party, the Alberta Liberal Party, we had MLAs on that committee. So

Corey 18:14

So it wasn't that keen to make it a big deal. But it became a huge fucking thing to the public. And everybody was bouncing around and springing around on that particular issue. So we are all creatures of our environments. And sometimes we can't see the things that become fatal. So it is important for parties to sort of test things and run it up the flagpole and see what's going on there. but

Corey 18:34

I just don't know if this one is worth it because I don't know if it reinforces the story of Pierre Polyev you want to tell. And in fact, I kind of worry in a

Corey 18:44

a funny way, like hear me out here. Maybe this is too crazy. Maybe this is a step beyond sane. But

Corey 18:51

I actually don't know that Pierre Polyev being a little bit secretly more establishment than he lets on is something that makes me personally feel worse about him.

Zain 19:01

Hold on. Say that one more time, just so i can understand that there's a lot of double negatives there so

Corey 19:08

say pierre polliev you're saying that pierre polliev is actually actually connected to these things he is going to listen to lobbyists rich friends like corporate corporate elite exactly okay

Corey 19:18

yeah you know that establishment guy too cozy with big business okay okay

Corey 19:23

i kind of think that might be a sensible moderating influence on the guy i actually worry about the version of pierre polliev that is entirely you know this this weather vane to the most populist and radical elements of the country so you know i don't know i mean is it reinforcing of the core narrative you want to tell about pierre pauliev that

Zain 19:42

that he's a bit more

Zain 19:43

bay street than then then he may that is more like sort of yeah yeah

Corey 19:48

he's not actually this reactionary who hands out donuts to people he's secretly in bed with like the most stable large institutions of this country

Corey 19:57

that a good attack yeah

Carter 19:58

yeah it just doesn't feel like it's going the right way if

Zain 20:01

if if you guys were tasked with a different task carter and i think i know your answer because you've thrown likability on the table what's

Zain 20:08

what's the lane you'd pick for the liberals you'd kind of come into the room and you'd say fuck this ad here's why it's wrong i'm

Zain 20:14

i'm going after likability am i putting words in your mouth by saying that or are you gonna sharpen that for me what's the lane that you're choosing as the new North Star against Pierre and saying, anything that doesn't fit into the lane of X, we are not doing. Well, how would you define that? Corey, I'm coming to you for that same question. I

Carter 20:30

I mean, I really would dive in under the likability thing, Zane. I mean, I'd like to come up with something different, but

Carter 20:38

it's just right there. People don't like this guy. Now, they don't like your guy more, but you can still move. You know, Justin Trudeau could probably gain some points in likability. and pierre polly can lose a number of points on likability and people vote for the strangest of reasons and not liking someone turns out to be a very big reason why people don't vote for them so that's why i picked the likability line and if it doesn't fit into does this make him less likable i put probably wouldn't go for it for right now because they did does this make justin trudeau less trustworthy for a long time and it worked it's worked fucking wonders and it's all been one question do you trust him more or you trust him less and this you know i think that if you were to grab on to do you like this guy uh do you like this guy at all i think you might have a chance cory

Zain 21:37

if i was tasking you the same thing almost like quiz show you've seen quiz show also known as Dave, you're the guy that isn't John Turturro's character here, right? You're going in the booth, you're putting on the headphones. You didn't hear what Carter said. He chose likability, but you don't know that.

Zain 21:54

What were you choosing?

Corey 21:58

I won't say likability because he said it. How about something around extremism? How about the populism that's going to pull him away? Certainly, the liberals have attempted versions versions of that for the last bit they've discussed the radicalism of pierre poliev being um you know

Corey 22:14

imported from the united states i don't know that the particular way they've tried to lay this on them is it feels like histrionics but i do think that there's something there where you say you know this is this is so outside of the mainstream you know you know this is i i there's just this huge desire to make things rhyme apparently today you know pierre doesn't care Pierre, half the reason I think that they've gone with these attacks is because they think, oh, God, that's great, it rhymes. But I

Corey 22:42

I have a problem with anything that also sounds like almost it could be like an action hero slogan, like, Pierre doesn't care. Like, he gives no fucks, and he's gonna fix this country, no matter what the

Corey 22:52

kind of his brand

Corey 22:54

know it's my point like yeah what are you trying to say what are you trying to do uh and why do you think this hurts him but um you know i i think there's something more to be like he you know he's so far outside of the mainstream that it's just like he's not what we're looking for he's he's he's the solution that is the problem and um

Corey 23:15

what what you do with that with the liberals i i don't know but i again i don't think it's It's tying him to Bay Street.

Zain 23:21

Carter's going with Pierre as a prick, and Corey's going with Pierre as extreme. Not too bad. Yeah,

Carter 23:27

Yeah, Carter, jump in there. Let me add to that, because the way

Carter 23:31

way that they're trying to do it is to say, well, he's just like Donald Trump. He's not like Donald Trump. Donald Trump is likable. You know, like, so, you know, to a certain subset of people, Donald Trump is a likable character. This guy's not a likable character. And comparing him to Donald Trump has proven to be foolhardy in many different ways. I would just dig in and say, you know, this is, this guy is, you know, he's an extremist, is part, I think could be easily part of my, is he likable? How many extremists do I like? None.

Carter 24:07

None. I like people who are like me.

Corey 24:10

Pierre Poliev is the guy you don't want to be stuck in an elevator with. Oh,

Corey 24:13

Imagine the 30 second spot. on oh

Carter 24:15

oh my god could you imagine that actually and

Carter 24:18

and and you just take clips like really short clips of him talking and then you just don't think the most annoying shit

Corey 24:24

shit yeah you have a guy in the elevator saying this just a normal person saying yeah you just have like the you have like the almost on on the screen popping over it like the quote that pierre polly when pierre polly have said these things yeah

Zain 24:37

yeah no even even better i'm you you you uh you have the ad board in the elevator uh someone walks in chooses the 13th floor it's a 30 second ride and you have the ad board in the elevator saying all of pierre's shitty lines back to back to back you get out like the person's like rushing to get out and then the super is just

Zain 24:57

big like a big like just trying to get out rushing to get out as soon as their floor comes they just dart out and then you just have like a shaky camera like with the elevator going back to ground being pure polyev the last guy you want want to be stuck in an elevator with find

Corey 25:10

out more at extreme prick.ca yeah

Zain 25:13

which by the way we

Zain 25:15

we own today and we're selling it tomorrow for 500 bucks okay we need cash to buy strategist.ca guys one final thing here um can we revisit our rules for creating uh

Zain 25:29

from engineering and manufacturing scandal sure

Zain 25:32

we've talked about this years ago can we can we like put together some notes. What does it take to engineer a scandal today? And I know we've, and then the liberals are trying to do it, right? Everything they're trying to, what are they, we've talked about what they got wrong. Carter, enshrine that in rules that they perhaps missed or rules that folks should consider. Let's go back and forth for a bit and then I'll spare you the rest of the time on something else. Well,

Carter 26:00

rule number one for me is that it has to be something that is believable, right? So it has to be an attack that fits

Carter 26:07

fits into an existing frame or something that we believe already about this

Carter 26:13

So the character of Justin Trudeau, it is relatively easy to believe some of these non-trustworthy claims, right? It is easy to believe those things. I'm not saying they're true, but they're believable. And that's what I think the first rule needs to be. This is a believable attack upon the person.

Zain 26:31

Corey, what else do you want to add? Carter adds believable to the list in terms of our rules to engineer a political scandal. What else needs to be part of it?

Corey 26:39

Well, that's easily the best one on the list. I feel like I'm playing, you know, Family Feud and the top of the board is now taken and I just have to sadly settle for second place here but you

Corey 26:52

you know i guess another important component of this is that the

Corey 26:56

the scandal needs to not be something you also are guilty of yeah

Corey 27:01

i think that one of the challenges with the one that the the liberals are trying to put forward right now is is

Corey 27:07

there's this thing called the news that many of us have read over the past eight years and it's pretty easy to find some comms even if you don't believe as the liberals they are perfect comps there's enough where people can say, ethical failings, where have I heard that before? Oh, maybe it was one of the three times the ethics commissioner said that about Justin Trudeau, right? Like, I just think you have to be very careful about saying something that is so obviously, you know, a charge that could, in macro, be laid more easily at your feet.

Zain 27:39

Carter, you want to add a third rule to the board? Believable, not something you're also guilty of. What else you want to add to the board? I

Carter 27:43

I just want to add understandable. I mean, it needs to be something that the average person person understands intuitively. If it is not something that you understand intuitively, then, you know, now you're explaining. And what do we know about explaining? If you're explaining, you're losing. So

Zain 27:58

So do you mean like, just it has to be like, the context doesn't have to be deep, it needs to be like the fact base, or the knowledge base of the public already needs to be there. Is that what you're saying? I don't mean to put words in your mouth.

Carter 28:09

Justin Trudeau's family took a gift from the We Charity that they weren't entitled to. to boom right understandable it's it's something that makes sense the foreign interference uh benefited justin trudeau so he's not investigating it boom it makes sense now is it true doesn't matter doesn't matter it's understandable it's easy to understand it therefore it must be true like we did it with the gondek campaign jeremy farkas equals jason kenney was

Carter 28:40

it true no probably Probably not. But did it make sense? Did people understand it intuitively? Yeah, they did. So, you know, if it's believable and it's intuitive, then I think you're cooking with real fire.

Zain 28:53

That's really interesting. If it's understandable, it must be true. It's such a cynical thing to say, but I know exactly where you're coming from. It's

Carter 29:05

It's not cynical at all. It's based in actual science.

Corey 29:09

Well, you know what? You said it, and it sounds okay, so it must be true. So

Zain 29:13

there you go. Corey, do you want to round us out with the fourth rule on the board? I feel like Carter's come up with two bangers. Not to say yours around not something you're also guilty of isn't good. Anything else you want to add before I throw it to our next segment?

Corey 29:26

I mean, there's an interesting thing about precedent. I don't know how to turn it into a rule, but you want something that's both not done so much that it's to death and nobody cares anymore because it just seems like it's happened a thousand times. but you don't want it to be so novel that you affect that kind of um uh

Corey 29:42

uh that comprehension that steven's talking about you want people to hear it and go oh boom it's this thing which i know was wrong right and it's maybe a sub point to steven's point but that's part of why whenever there's a new scandal somebody tries to affix gate to the end of it right because you're being like oh like wire gate right right it's just like that or now how in canada we have we had ad scam right Right. And so which itself was a parody of, you

Corey 30:10

you know, like we talked about this in the 80s app scam. Right. And so but that's become one of the ones that we use around here. You want people to be able to draw those easy, lazy parallels and immediately kind of shorthand it like, oh, that's wrong. I get it. I

Corey 30:24

I get that that's wrong.

Zain 30:26

We're going to leave that segment there, move it to our next segment, our next segment meeting with the enemy. me.

Zain 30:32

Corey, there's some really fascinating updates in this recall for Jyoti Gondek. We're going to go hyperlocal. We went national, we're going to go hyperlocal. But I think there's just really fascinating strategic conversations here. Carter, to catch people up to speed, you guys both need to help me. I'm just going to paraphrase. There was a recall for Jyoti Gondek, a campaign that requires a shit ton of signatures. That's a technical term. More signatures than than people who voted in the election to recall Jyoti Gondek. It was started by a guy, a small business guy here in Calgary. Seems to have started it on his own. We then understood that there was lawn signs going up. There was recall campaigns in person and plus 15s. There was billboards. There was backing through other financial sources. People had made donations. People were attaching onto this. We've talked about how this is a data mining, data elevation exercise. Well, we chatted, was it last week or a few weeks ago? I don't even remember, Carter. What is time anymore? But we chatted about with these additional forces being added onto it, is there a sympathy strategy for Jyoti Gandek? Is there something that she could say to say, look, look at these outsized forces against me? And then something fascinating happened. And this week, it was revealed that she met with the individual that took out this petition, that started this petition, I guess is the best way to put it. And I want to analyze that strategy. I want to analyze it for the particular purposes of this conversation, but I also think there's really something interesting around the human element of saying someone's trying to do something against you. you, when does the human element kind of come in? When does just sitting down and leveling out come in to equation? When is it good strategy at the end of the day? So on the specifics, and then on the broader principle of sitting down with the other side, when is it good strategy? Carter, let's talk about the specifics. What did you make of the move here? Corey, I'm going to come to you in a second.

Carter 32:27

I thought it was ridiculously stupid. I mean, first of all, you don't need more talking points on the recall Gondek piece. So giving the media another talking point that's going to give you two three four five more days of media coverage on this particular topic so it's not even on your own side of the talking points now you're elevating landon johnson and his talking points to the point where it is now the dominant theme uh on top of that you're not getting any sympathy you're still the high-powered mayor talking with a with a with a citizen um so you look like you're you know what was the outcome that you were expecting Were you expecting to bully him out of the recall petition? Were you expecting him to say, I'm sorry, I was wrong? These things were never going to happen. And now you've elevated him, given him more time, given him more oxygen. And Landon Johnson looks like he's on equal footing to the mayor of Calgary, which I think is lunacy. see this

Carter 33:25

was one of the worst uh political plays i think i've seen out of a politician because it

Carter 33:31

it failed on the media level it failed on the human level it failed on the sympathy level it failed on just about every level and uh i know that there were lots of people on twitter who were like this is a great idea those people on twitter are on twitter because they can't even have their own podcasts and you know we we have our own podcast so there now

Zain 33:51

now we have our own podcast we're also fundraising for this for strategist.ca i don't even think we

Corey 33:57

told anybody like it was you didn't even tell anyone how expensive it was sixty

Zain 34:00

sixty eight hundred dollars we

Zain 34:01

need to sell a shit

Corey 34:02

shit ton of our domain inventory we gotta sell a lot of domains do

Zain 34:05

do you have any of our inventory do you have anything to dangle in front of these motherfuckers out there okay like if

Corey 34:11

couch with your kids

Zain 34:12

kids right right now and you wanted to buy carter's

Zain 34:15

carter's what was it carter's monthly nut dot ca well that could

Corey 34:19

could be your that

Corey 34:20

be really expensive yeah

Corey 34:22

yeah that one's good that's

Zain 34:23

that one could be yours okay you could you could gift it to a friend or a family member you know what leave it in your inheritance leave

Zain 34:30

leave it for your kids yeah let them find that yeah when they open up your will when you are six

Zain 34:35

six feet below and the lawyer is

Corey 34:36

is this person at

Zain 34:37

at the top floor of some tower is opening the envelope and saying you know what to my youngest you get at cartersmonthlynuts.ca okay and i

Corey 34:46

i think it's a.com zane oh my god oh my

Zain 34:49

my god you need to buy that right now you know what i know

Corey 34:53

know you're surprised that cartersmonthlynut.com was not taken i

Carter 34:59

was i was shocked i was shocked leave

Zain 35:03

leave it to your youngest leave it to your youngest we're gonna just reach out to us okay we will sell it to you just name your price okay name Name your price. It's $1,000. Corey, is

Zain 35:14

is Carter right here? Is Carter right that this was a fail on all fronts? Because I might be part of that group online that on a human level thought this was – I

Corey 35:25

strategic because I have no – maybe

Zain 35:26

maybe enduring, maybe interesting. I'm actually being honest with you here. I thought it was interesting on a human level. But

Corey 35:31

But is Carter right? Yeah. It's because you were raised on some West Wing bullshit. And just the Aaron Sorkin-esque nonsense that this was spoke to you on a foundational level. You all of a sudden remembered being a child, sitting with your parents, watching on some 13-inch pitiful little television, you know, some uplifting speech by Martin Sheen. And you thought, this

Corey 35:54

this is who I am and this is why. Why do I even show

Zain 35:56

show up? Why do I even show up to this fucking gig?

Zain 36:00

Okay? You're going to make fun of my childhood poverty. Is

Zain 36:03

Is this what you want to do, Corey? No, you had a much bigger

Zain 36:05

bigger TV. You just like to

Corey 36:07

to watch it on the TV.

Zain 36:09

What happened? What happened to the

Corey 36:10

the Northeast Solidarity? You wanted your ears. What happened to the Northeast Solidarity? Listen, Ben, I'm from the Northeast. We all have enormous teeth. You

Zain 36:16

You are not from

Corey 36:18

from the Northeast, okay?

Zain 36:19

okay? You, like, make your family cosplay

Corey 36:22

in this small house that

Zain 36:23

that you have. Zane,

Zain 36:25

It's so sad. It is so

Corey 36:26

in the Northwest. You don't

Zain 36:29

You could afford so much more, yet you don't. You're, oh, it's just sad. Okay. It's just sad what you do to try to do to be part of Che. All

Corey 36:35

All right, well, here's, yeah. Yeah.

Corey 36:37

So, I mean, fundamentally, though, I do think, like, that's the thing. They were looking for this moment of big drama. They were looking for the rising violins, you know? Why

Zain 36:46

Why didn't it work? Or

Zain 36:47

that play even available to them at all? I guess that's the question I have for you.

Corey 36:51

somebody should have sat there and decision-treated this shit out. They should have talked about what do we do if X happens? What's the probability of X? What do we do if Y happens? What's the probability of Y? You know, this is like a perfect Lisa Young young flowchart moment lisa if you're listening make this flowchart i would i would love to see this flowchart because ultimately you're gonna get only like some very narrow like

Corey 37:14

like option set that's gonna get you to kind of this positive outcome like the one steven talked about where she meets with him and is like and he says oh i guess i was mistaken was not probable but i think maybe what she was looking for where she goes and she gets to be able to say like i'm a mare who who cares and talks to people but like i guess that's how you get a meeting with the mayor now like do you even want to encourage that and i couldn't agree more with steven in terms of

Corey 37:38

it just propels the story like all of a sudden we continue to talk about this we continue like we're talking about this right now why why why are we doing this because nobody needed this nobody was calling for this i actually think that the whole like wave based on his interview was quieting down and then it's just like boom we're right back in it oh my god now we're having all all these meta conversations should the mayor even have met with this individual under these contexts in this way is it intimidating for the mayor to do that there's such a power dynamic and ultimately yeah steven's right like you're

Corey 38:10

you're the mayor man and and i think that people want their mayors to be approachable and accessible but this is something different right this is the mayor calling and saying hey i hear you got a problem with me it's

Carter 38:26

that's the the perfect way to put it thank you cory when's

Zain 38:29

when's when is when is sitting down with the other side in in a rare situation like this where the other side's not like a political opponent right where we've talked to at length about political opponents and like that that you know is this ever a good idea i guess is what i'm trying to was this a timing thing or was this strategy always wrought in in in that regard go go go first and then card i'll come to you i

Corey 38:52

think generally speaking people don't like moments that make them uncomfortable and i can think of a time in the uh the the 2012 provincial election where i think allison redford was at an event was like main streeting on 124th street in edmonton and raj sherman was across the street main streeting at a different street in edmonton and he went across the street to say hi to her or

Corey 39:20

or was it daniel smith does not matter point is it was awkward the media found it awkward the whole thing just seemed like a bad energy to bring to these things people don't want that you know we we talk about people wanting these moments but people actually just want the same thing they've always had most of the time which is that politics plays out beat by beat and and doesn't necessarily kind of alarm them or concern them in any way like the comp always has to be if you were like for a voter like you're imagine you're in a workplace and there's two people who don't get along how

Corey 39:53

how do you want to engage with them basically you want to engage with each of them you don't want to be in a room when the two of them are engaging with each other

Zain 40:01

carter anything to add here is this is this ever a good strategy was this just a byproduct or poor timing or would even if the timing was different this had happened at the beginning uh you would have you would have kind of said no not a good strategy this

Carter 40:13

this is a terrible strategy from from basically

Carter 40:16

basically the word go, because there's a status and power imbalance. And by not

Carter 40:24

not seemingly being able to recognize that power and status and balance, you kind of exacerbate it. So this was never going to be a winning strategy. And how you choose to balance

Carter 40:39

balance it off, you know, It requires the mayor to put herself at such a low status if you were going to pull it off that you

Carter 40:48

you would have basically taken your office and minimized

Carter 40:51

minimized it to nothing. And people may say, well, it's the people's office or we don't do status play when we're doing politics. But, yeah, actually we do. This is one of the ways that politics is conducted. inducted people look at the status and the relative status of the candidates and that's one of the ways that they make their decisions for them so this

Carter 41:14

was what do you mean

Zain 41:14

mean by status play just just so i the listeners are clear on that uh

Carter 41:18

uh status play is you know how do we perceive the person in terms of overarching status do we see them as like there'll be some candidates who come out of the gate and they are

Carter 41:28

are immediately deemed to be sad sacks they're they're not someone who people are going to vote for and we know that almost intuitively right from the get-go and that's because their status is so low that we

Carter 41:42

we know we're never voting for them and

Carter 41:45

they could have the best policy the best ideas in the whole world but if their status is low

Carter 41:51

then they are not the mayor i think that don braid called it the royal jelly when he was talking talking about Jim

Carter 41:58

Jim Prentiss. Jim Prentiss has the royal jelly.

Carter 42:01

Well, you know, there's something to be said for having the status that says, I can lead. I am your leader and you will follow. And Jyoti Gandek meeting with Landon Johnson indicates that she does not have the royal jelly.

Zain 42:19

Corey, talk to me about this as we close it off. What do you think, in this case, it was Gandek's office, but what do you think, I think, and this probably goes back to your West Wing reference, what do you think goes through a politician's head around what they think they can do from a goals perspective in a meeting like that?

Zain 42:34

Like, you know, like, I think

Corey 42:37

there's something important psychologically,

Zain 42:38

psychologically, as much as it's strategically around like what politicians and others, because this is just one of several incidents like this over the years that this has happened where politicians elevated someone as perhaps a byproduct of either a sit down or a meeting or a conversation. what do you think goes through a head of a politician or decision maker i

Corey 42:58

think that most of the politicians i've i've worked with consulted with you know advised over the years have have kind of this desire to not fit neatly into boxes they're always sort of keeping one eye open for the big throw that you know they they want to have the kobayashi maru where they you know they can win in the unwinnable situation they

Corey 43:19

want to swing for the fences to kind of pull it to like a baseball metaphor but really most politicians are better served by singles and doubles and just doing the things that politicians need to do well and unfortunately um it's just really alluring to just wind up and swing as hard as you can and try to break the mold because politicians do know that's that's the stuff we remember when it goes really well but

Corey 43:44

unfortunately for them most of the time it doesn't go really well and ultimately if you want to kind kind of play, take a money ball approach to politics, rather than this kind of old school, big slugger approach that seems to be still stuck in their minds.

Zain 44:01

Carter, you know, the mayor in this particular case tried to make the case that, you

Zain 44:05

you know, at the end of the day, her and Landon Johnson are on the same page here that like, they're both concerned about these additional parties, these third parties that are trying to co-opt this movement with their illegal signs and whatnot um you know they're both concerned that it's gotten out of hand did

Zain 44:22

did you like that did you feel like that was uh that that part of it was had some strategic merit no

Carter 44:28

no i i think that if landon was so concerned about it he would have put a stop to it but he's not that concerned about it so he didn't put a stop to it um you

Carter 44:39

you know he he willingly fell fell into bed with these folks, and the mayor tried to talk him into a position that said, oh, you don't like these either.

Carter 44:50

But the goal of the operation, I'm not sure if she remembered, but the goal of the operation was to get 514,000 signatures so that she wouldn't be mayor anymore, and that would require about 514,000 people to participate in this project. So, you know, you're not going to be able to pick every one of those Those 514,000 people, of course, there's going to be people who are, quote unquote, benefiting from this and being able to take advantage of this incredibly bad legislation.

Carter 45:24

And Landon Johnson is just the first of the 514,000 people that are trying to take

Carter 45:33

take advantage of this legislation and take her down.

Zain 45:36

Corey, any thoughts on this before we move on?

Corey 45:40

Well, just that, of course, people are going to jump onto these petitions. That's the way it has to work. Because otherwise, what would happen is you would just have your least competent friends start a recall petition for you if you had a position like Mayor, right? But it's like a corporate motion. Once it's on the floor, it belongs to the floor. It doesn't belong to the mover or the seconder, right? And people are going to take these things and they're going to run with them and they're going to get the signatures because this is the time and this is the opportunity and to suggest otherwise or to suggest that somehow landon himself needed to have every signature come through his house is ridiculous and people are going to piggyback onto these things they're going to see it and say for different reasons i also don't support the mayor and i also am going to get signatures and that's just the reality of a recall that's a reality of the mechanisms that we have available and you can just sort of expect that to continue the suggestion that this thing has been hijacked to me is like Like, is it? Like, what? Is that a thing? Do we care? Isn't that missing the point entirely? Is your argument now like, listen, Landon

Corey 46:42

Landon really didn't like me, but then a bunch of other people who really didn't like me came in and they also tried to get rid of me? And I don't think that's fair. Like, what is that? You know, what is that?

Corey 46:53

We're going to move on to our... Go ahead. Yeah, not compelling.

Zain 46:56

Moving on to our final segment, our over-under in our lightning round, Stephen Carter. This will be compelling. Oh, this is going to be super compelling. Now, I don't know if you know this, Carter. We do this for you. And this question is specifically designed for you to go first on, which is why I'm going to let Corey go first on it. Corey, are you in or are you out Doug Ford in his budget in Ontario? He's extending the gas tax holiday in Ontario. Are you in or are you out? Blaming the carbon tax, blaming the April 1st increases, extending it for his citizens in Ontario, or his folks, as he would probably say, in Ontario. Are you in or are you out?

Corey 47:33

mean, I don't think it's very good public policy, but I suppose he's matching the zeitgeist. So in

Corey 47:40

in politically, out policy.

Corey 47:43

Carter, in or out?

Carter 47:45

I'm in politically, out morally.

Zain 47:50

they're not extending any sort of holiday. We are going to allow the increase to happen here with

Zain 47:53

with our gas tax. The holiday is over in some ways. Are you in or are you out here in Alberta? alberta um

Carter 48:00

um i am totally out uh because i think it's political politically very uh stupid to rail on about the carbon tax increase and then increase your own gas tax by the exact same amount it just feels like uh it's a it's

Carter 48:17

it's an own goal uh by the own goal specialists of the daniel smith era cory

Zain 48:23

cory is it an own goal are you are you in or are you out on it from a from a political uh strategy assessment i'm

Corey 48:28

i'm in because 95 of the conversation has been about the carbon tax going up and five percent has been about the gas tax and there are going to be tens

Corey 48:38

tens of thousands of people who just say holy fuck gas got expensive today thanks trudeau right and they're not even going to realize it was because the holiday ended at the provincial level you

Zain 48:49

you think that you think the carbon tax gave them cloud cover to actually move on and kind of do this thing how did it not

Zain 48:55

And do you, like Carter, see that as hypocrisy, or do you see that as good strategy, or both?

Zain 49:02

Yeah, those are not mutually exclusive concepts. Right, right, right. It's a very cynical episode. I like it. Speaking of cynical, Corey, overrated or underrated? We have a few days to think about this now. We had a few days to observe it. But Pierre Trudeau's vote of non-confidence against the government. Justin Trudeau. Sorry, Justin Trudeau's vote of non-confidence engineered by the conservatives. Sorry, those are the words I am looking for. You're doing a good job.

Zain 49:29

Oh, me do a great job, Carter. I'm killing it here. You're in or you're out, Corey. You're in or you're out on what Pierre Polyev tried to do this past Thursday. It obviously failed, but he didn't seem to wear any scars from it. In or out from that political mechanism and political sort of strategy of his?

Corey 49:50

I think I'm out. On one hand, I could argue it did no harm and it had people talking about the gas tax for another day or two, right? But I just don't know that it's that great to just waste time and lose. I know he knew it was a kind of useless, futile effort, but I just don't think it put anybody in a box. I just don't think it had that much media commentary. it afforded a platform for the others as well to say actually there's kind of a consensus on carbon pricing amongst the political parties i

Corey 50:21

don't know i i mean i just don't think it matters i i is there a way to be half in half out like just sort of sitting in the door jam or something yes

Zain 50:28

yes it's sitting in the sitting in the door jam is the stephen carter uh i was gonna say

Carter 50:34

like jagmeet singh but whatever i mean whatever carter

Zain 50:37

carter do you want to sit in the door Jim, because the liberals survived the non-confidence motion this past Thursday. The bloc and the NDP voted with them, of course. But from a perspective of what this meant by a PR strategy, were

Zain 50:51

were you in or out on it?

Carter 50:52

I was in Ottawa when it happened. And I'm not saying I was in Ottawa because it was going to happen.

Carter 51:01

And I was in Ottawa.

Carter 51:03

draw your own conclusions, kids. Draw your own conclusions. conclusions so

Corey 51:07

so you were working for the conservatives absolutely

Carter 51:10

um so here's here's where we are i i just think i

Carter 51:13

don't like doing something to fail um but

Carter 51:17

but it also did change the channel pretty solidly off of the uh israel

Carter 51:22

uh piece that the liberals were uh siding with the ndp on and the conservatives were kind of out on a little bit of an island so i i don't know know i'm i'm uh where's cory sitting he's in the middle i'm i'm going to join him over there right

Zain 51:36

right in the middle of the door cozy last

Zain 51:38

last question here carter i'm going to start with you will he or won't he i'm going to ask you again anthony housefather we talked about his writing uh the old pierre trudeau writing solidly liberal writing he's now was flirting last week about talking about listen i'm not directly talking with conservatives and i don't know if there's a home for me uh time has gone by a bit are you gonna are you gonna renege on your will here won't we or where is he going on this no

Carter 52:04

no i was one listen i was 100 correct when i said what for 100 uncertainty he was going to to leave the liberal caucus and tonight

Carter 52:15

i am prepared to double down and uh continue that statement jesus

Zain 52:22

jesus christ cory are you gonna are you gonna do the obvious take take the smart money on the other side of that bet yeah

Corey 52:27

i don't i don't know i mean he continues to kind of muse about it as far as i can tell i yeah i saw some reporting as recently as this morning on this particular topic it's

Corey 52:38

it's so interesting it is we talked a bit about this on on the patreon episode it is like historically

Corey 52:45

historically a liberal lock it has been a liberal mp since 19 Since

Corey 52:51

And even in the, you know, the really, really bad times, like in the 2011 election there, the liberals

Corey 52:59

liberals held on to it, and they won it still by what would be a convincing margin in many other jurisdictions. and it's kind of hard to imagine the liberals losing it it is also uh riding with a very large jewish population of course mount royal yeah and i've seen statistics anywhere from 20 to 30 depending on the source and you start to wonder is that is that a community that will vote in a block against uh you know the liberals if if there's a sense that the liberals have abandoned in israel i'm not convinced of that at all but certainly if uh if if um the jewish community voted en masse against the liberals it would make it an interesting race i'm just not convinced that

Corey 53:48

an inevitability wow as they say it's

Carter 53:51

it's late you're really pronouncing your words well

Zain 53:54

we're gonna leave it there that's a wrap on episode 1295 the strategist my name is zane in Belgium with me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we'll see you next time.

Transcript