Episode 1293: Julienne fries

Zain 0:01

This is Strategists episode 1293. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, we are here. We're doing this. It's very exciting. It's very exciting for the listener who expects us to show up, frankly,

Zain 0:14

frankly, at this point on any given day.

Carter 0:15

Listen, I'm just really pleased that the listeners come in to hear the washed out opinions of a

Carter 0:21

a guy who's only won two regional elections, Zain. That makes me happy.

Zain 0:28

yeah, it was a bit of a stretch. You've won one regional election and then a couple of municipal elections. So together, they probably count as a singular regional election. So yeah, I mean, I guess you're right. I guess you're right, Carter. Corey, there was probably some preamble there, Martin Carter's comments.

Zain 0:46

do we want to talk about win-loss records?

Corey 0:48

records? I did feel like he was kind of bringing some emotion and some baggage into it there. It's hard to really

Carter 0:53

really know what's going on in his head. you

Carter 0:55

you know i mean we did pretty good of packing out our anger in the first two minutes let

Corey 0:59

let me tell you something

Carter 1:00

you guys let it go a tremendous tremendous

Zain 1:01

tremendous patreon episode you're

Zain 1:04

you're still uh tremendous patreon episode on the on the not had nenshi candidacy uh the first five to six minutes most people should avoid it pure garbage i would say personally i found that to be uh utter uh hot trash utter hot white trash okay uh so so so subscribe for six dollars and start at the six minute mark you're not going to regret it it's it's it's going to be an episode uh worth your time plus the six minutes you save i think i think i'm just doing a service cory i

Zain 1:33

should be i should be doing director's cuts on all of their experience

Zain 1:36

like for today's episode would i say start after the minute 40 mark like

Zain 1:40

like start now probably

Zain 1:41

probably no that's probably why it's good stuff

Zain 1:46

it's good it's very meta listeners

Carter 1:47

listeners come for cory

Zain 1:49

cory no the listeners do come for one thing which is, Corey, we were early, and we got it right. Kate Gate is a thing. You think we were just wasting the listeners' time with an hour on the Purple Rain? No, we were absolutely not. We were early, and we were right. Were we not, Corey? We

Corey 2:06

We were early, we were right. Yeah. No, Kate Middleton is definitely dead. You heard it here first.

Zain 2:14

Once again, the difference between... And here's the thing, Carter. Not only were we early, Not only were we right, we now have airtight libel insurance that allows us to talk about Kate Middleton and all of the things that have happened to her, including the fact that Barack Obama walked into 10 Downing Street today and was making sure that he was actually conducted the autopsy.

Carter 2:35

Oh, good. That is what Barack

Zain 2:37

Obama was brought in to conduct the autopsy. That is how poorly the presidency pays.

Carter 2:42

Yeah, I mean, he's got to have an extra gig on the side. You

Corey 2:44

You get a couple of honorary doctorates, and one of them's in medicine. so it's

Carter 2:48

it's fine it's good is

Corey 2:50

is that how a university should work is that great you're

Corey 2:53

you're gonna have to ask somebody more

Corey 2:57

tune with those things yeah

Zain 2:58

yeah okay that's good that's good yeah we're gonna slip away with that uh carter uh your your reckless speculation libel free about what's happened to kate middleton oh

Carter 3:08

oh she's just sitting at home taking care of the kids i

Corey 3:12

the least least believable thing i've heard here

Carter 3:14

that's that's you need to go sensational

Zain 3:16

sensational you need to go over

Carter 3:17

over the top sensational it was over the top you

Zain 3:20

think kate middleton taking care of the kids at home is over the top and sensational yeah

Carter 3:24

yeah i don't believe that that's yeah i think that's over the top i i think that that's crazy talk for royal they

Carter 3:31

didn't do that they haven't done that with any of their generations cory

Zain 3:34

cory does a part of you die when carter misses on a joke

Zain 3:40

do you mean i

Zain 3:42

mean commitment to the bid is excellent but then you

Carter 3:45

you just keep committing you

Zain 3:50

okay it's fine it's good thank you carter thank

Zain 3:53

build you up in a

Zain 3:55

a second uh that's a real roller coaster it's gonna be and there's no video so people can't tell who's speaking that was a two-time regional campaign winner steve carter

Zain 4:08

finish that what are you laughing about how many regional campaigns i mean

Corey 4:11

i it victory is contextual zane you know that and so yes

Corey 4:16

yes here we are let's

Zain 4:17

let's move on to our let's move on to our first segment our first segment axing the tax from within stephen carter i want to talk about the carbon tax it is a it is it has now become a parade of who is against the carbon tax even more you you thought about conservatives oh no they want to axe the tax uh carter liberals across the country want to want to fucking kill the tax okay they want to they want to stab the tax in the face carter you're looking at susan holt in new brunswick you're looking at bonnie crombie come out this week you're looking at at fury uh in in in the east coast liberals are coming after even wab canoe the sitting premier in manitoba be mealy mouthed ish he's one of the a few that is governing, all the Furies as well, that's saying, listen, we're against this. And of course, Corey, as we know, several NDP leadership candidates here closer to home have also come out against the tax. Carter, the one person who's still for the carbon tax, still defending the carbon tax, saying just a short while ago that, you know, what people don't understand is that they get this amazing rebate, paraphrasing,

Zain 5:20

paraphrasing, is one Justin Trudeau. Carter, the tax is now being undercut. It's a race to the bottom of who hates it more. should justin trudeau get off this hill or does he have no choice talk to me well

Carter 5:35

well i don't think he can get off the hill i mean i think that he's he's absolutely committed to a failed policy so i mean how would he even what what is leaving this policy even look like saying like let's say that i was brought in tomorrow to turn this thing off how would you even do it i'm sorry i did this For the last, what, eight, ten years, I've been wrong? Like, it just seems incredible to me that this is even something that he could back away from. I was hoping

Zain 6:02

hoping you would go there. Corey, do you share this opinion that Trudeau cannot back away? Because you know where I'm going if you share this opinion.

Corey 6:11

Well, it's an interesting question. Here's the thing about hills you die on. Once you die on them, you're dead. And so, he's really quite attached to this policy. I don't mean like he's emotionally attached. I mean, to the public, this policy is synonymous with his premiership, his prime ministership. So, I don't know. I mean, I think that if you asked me the question about should the liberals run away from this tax, I'd say, yeah, it kind of feels like that's where it's going. Cohen, can Trudeau run away from it?

Corey 6:44

I think he and the tax are one in the same. So the question in some ways is, can the liberals run away from Justin Trudeau?

Zain 6:50

Trudeau? It's starting to seem that way, especially with rumblings of leadership races starting again. I don't know if you guys have been hearing anything, but they've always been in the background. They've reached another, you know, there's these waves of like, they start up again, right? I mean, it's the preamble of Mark Carney showing up on a Sunday show. So just wait for that, because just give it a couple of weeks until that happens, because we know that means something. Hey, Carter, here's the assignment for both of you, because I was hoping both of you would say, this is actually, he's doing the right thing. Like, he's doing the only strategic thing available to him. Your

Zain 7:25

Your job is to help him find

Zain 7:27

find an off-ramp here, to find an off-ramp here that's elegant, the most elegant off-ramp. I'm not saying perfect. I'm not saying perfect. I'm not saying painless. I'm not even saying it actually doesn't make things worse. But help him find the most elegant off-ramp here to something that is being undercut by liberals across the country, by liberal leaders in different provinces, by a multi-partisan group of individuals. And soon enough, Carter, we don't know, but I assume by his caucus and I assume by some of his supporters. So if this is heading where where it's headed, how do we start thinking about the most elegant off ramp for our dear prime minister?

Carter 8:07

Well, I mean, I think that the elegant off ramp, I mean, at

Carter 8:13

at this stage, I think you have to just kind of go for a straight crashing into the overpass. If you're going to do it, then kill it, but keep the rebate. What I would suggest doing is shifting the carbon tax from the consumer consumer to the producer. So,

Carter 8:31

So, anybody who's producing carbon, you know, outputs, this is why the corporate community was in such, you know, loved the carbon tax, is the corporate community loved the carbon tax because the alternative was to put the carbon tax directly on the producer of the carbon. So, put the tax on the oil and gas community, put the tax on electricity generation, put the tax on you know

Carter 8:57

know gasoline purchases you can do that and then still give them a rebate but

Carter 9:03

but now instead of calling it what is it now Corey it's a carbon tax rebate or something like that I don't even remember now just call it a direct payment to Canadians for their vote and

Carter 9:11

and that makes it much easier much easier to understand it's very

Carter 9:16

it's honest and that way we can you know

Carter 9:19

know that way you can start to leave it behind but and in fairness Zane I'm only kind kind of half being the thesis. You can use the word facetious.

Zain 9:28

facetious. Yeah, you can use it. Thank

Carter 9:29

Thank you. Thank you. I can't say it very well. Permission granted.

Carter 9:34

you know, I do think that the alternative to the carbon tax is regulation of, you know, regulation to reduce carbon

Carter 9:43

and, you know, putting the burden on corporations.

Carter 9:47

So if you're going to put the burden on corporations, if that's where Pierre Polyev is going to go, And realistically, he may not even go there. Then you may as well do it before he becomes the next prime minister. Because even when you do this, it still may end up with Pierre Polyev becoming the next prime minister.

Zain 10:03

Hold that thought in a second around what Pierre would do. And some of his rhetoric this past week has been fascinating on this file and others around big business. And I want to get there in a second. Corey, elegant

Zain 10:13

elegant off-ramp, are those oxymorons? Is that possible on this file? How are you thinking about it?

Corey 10:19

yeah well there's there's the policy choices you make and then it's how you sell them to people and let's talk this out for a minute because i don't know if i have elegant at hand but maybe through the conversation we can get somewhere within the vicinity of elegant the first is you do kind of the classic i'm sorry right the ralph klein style mea culpa this was wrong shouldn't adonit holy cow after so many years that seems tough to me but it's

Carter 10:46

it's just option one option

Corey 10:49

option two is um

Corey 10:51

um we're going to make it better or we are going to make some tweaks it's not a huge tweak but it no longer applies to these 30 things right and it's gonna essentially be steven's strategy but it's pretty so

Zain 11:02

so it's like a carve out on top of the initial carver

Zain 11:04

carver carves out or sort of thing We have a carbon tax.

Corey 11:08

That carbon tax no longer applies to basically anything anybody cares about. And

Corey 11:13

everyone's going to say, well, then you don't have a carbon tax. You say, oh, no, no, no. Big corporations, they have carbon tax. X, Y, Z, they all have carbon tax. And you just hope that it's only the nerds who are saying, yeah, but you no longer have a consumer carbon tax.

Corey 11:29

where i lean like absent any other brilliant idea option three is you go in

Corey 11:33

kind of deeper like i don't think you have time for it but some sort of treaty with europe or the united states to harmonize the systems and say we're all going to do the same thing this is a global problem and we are dealing with our biggest trading partners and we're creating a global solution and yeah you know what they don't they don't have this so we're not going to have this either but this is this is gonna be great for everybody and this is how we tackle global global challenges. And I don't really love that one either. It sounds a lot like the first one, but those are the first three I'll throw on the table. I don't think any of them are elegant. I just don't think it's, I don't think it's possible to be elegant when for years and years, people have been yelling at you about this and you've been saying, no problem, no problem, no problem. The rebates are bigger, all of the things that we've heard. And then just to kind Kind of do this last minute pivot. There's no elegance in that.

Zain 12:24

you were advising him in

Zain 12:27

in a moment right now, if I move off from the off ramp, he's

Zain 12:31

he's doubled down and you kind of agree with it, right? You're kind of saying, hey, this is your road, man. You've made your bed and this is associated with you, so of course you're going to lay in it.

Zain 12:44

are you are you able to carve out a victory for him in any time horizon any reasonable time horizon with the double down or is this a purely defensive save the furniture style double down from a man who knows he's probably going to lose the next election like like you know a double down we've talked about it as both being a defensive and an offensive strategy how do you look at this particular one maybe that's the more speaking of elegant elegant way to ask that question i

Carter 13:09

I think this is more defensive. I don't think that there's any—I

Carter 13:14

any—I mean, I really don't see a way that he can go on the offensive with this particular issue. And it looks like this issue is going to be the election issue, unless something miraculously

Carter 13:22

miraculously pops up in the next 18 months. I mean, arguably, it would be pretty hard to sustain an issue for 18 months. But he's already—you know, Pierre Polyev has sustained this thing for a

Carter 13:36

a very long time. It's probably been two years already. So, you

Carter 13:41

you know, this to me feels like this is the natural end place of an unpopular position.

Carter 13:47

position. The next person who comes in, like I would liken this to Mulroney.

Carter 13:53

Mulroney brings in the GST and

Carter 13:56

and gets absolutely hammered for it. Kretchen then keeps the GST, doesn't even reduce it. And Bob's your uncle. He wins three elections in a row. No.

Carter 14:07

you know, the problem that I think is that Justin Trudeau is trying to seek that fourth victory.

Carter 14:12

You don't get four in the Canadian system, certainly not of late. Is

Zain 14:16

Is it too cute, Corey, to say that he's willing to take the L on the election so that this policy can perhaps live beyond him? That sounds way too, like, grandiose and West Wing-y, but I'm trying trying to put a framing around this how do you think he's processing it in the heart of the question is exactly the one i asked carter around this is a defensive double down isn't it well

Corey 14:41

well is it i i think we've got to look at the entirety of his actions over the past six months here and i am i'm very of the opinion that we owe him some i told you so's here because we said this would happen the minute there was the car on fuels

Corey 14:56

fuels in eastern canada they're

Corey 14:58

they're all moral high ground lost all moral high ground lost and this is exactly what we're seeing like this is the inevitable consequence of him playing politics with something that he said was beyond politics it was like a big existential issue this was required so yeah you know reap the wind or sow the wind reap the whirlwind whatever that dumb saying is but this is essentially the consequence of his actions here and also

Corey 15:24

also like this i don't know i i've said this so many times the carbon Carbon tax is supposed to hurt. By definition, it

Corey 15:31

it is supposed to make you say, boy, I don't want to pay that and then go out and do things that are going to reduce your carbon intake here. What a crazy thing for a politician to do, like to bring in a policy that is designed to hurt. And I appreciate that all of the politicians who have done it in this country have tried to do it with rebates, but it doesn't change the fundamental psychological math you were

Zain 15:51

were trying to do.

Zain 15:52

Not a carrot. It's

Corey 15:54

stick. stick you're you're hitting somebody with a stick and then you're saying okay you don't want to get hit with the stick go to do something else that's

Corey 16:01

that's really tough and and so i i say all of this in a way of like you talk about him going down with the ship you talk about these high-minded things the reality is he's a politician who did something that was fairly impolitic he got away with it for quite some time and then when the pressure started to build up he caved on his own rationale Chanel, and now it looks truly and utterly screwed. And, you know, I don't give him any righteous points for that. It's like, well, bud, here

Zain 16:29

Let me get back to him in a second. I like your, I want to pick up on your phrasing of righteous points. Carter, it's

Zain 16:36

it's easy, even as a progressive or a liberal opposition leader or premier, to kind of be like, I wouldn't want to do this. It's not popular anymore. Hey, you know, I know it was a hallmark of our party and, you know, hey, and, you know, rising tide of Trudeau lifted all of our boats, you know, but but fuck off. Right. Like it's you're done. We're done. Right. Yeah.

Zain 16:56

Any words of caution you'd have to them as

Zain 16:59

as it relates even to this policy, but also just abandoning something that has been the hallmark of kind of your political identity, or at least maybe that's a little bit of an overreach, but at least part of your political identity at its core for what, like nearly a decade? Or is this, am I being naive, Carter, by suggesting that there's any cost to pay? Because one thing, and let me throw you my bias, I don't love when they're like, it's just not popular anymore, even though many of them probably believe it's the right thing to do. Am I being naive, Carter? Or is there some cautionary note to folks that are abandoning a policy that last

Zain 17:32

last week they were for?

Carter 17:35

No, I mean, I think that you can get away with that. You can absolutely get away with that. um the

Carter 17:39

the truth of the matter is that this policy isn't popular now it

Carter 17:45

was okay it was it was fairly popular when it started now it's become less popular because it's become more associated with the personification and

Carter 17:53

and i think that that has to be recognized that that's the reason that this isn't popular it

Carter 17:58

it is because of justin trudeau's carbon

Carter 18:00

carbon tax um and and to be frank this is really the economists party carbon tax the economists were the ones who were in love with this as

Zain 18:10

as as an instrument as a policy instrument yeah i think

Carter 18:13

think that a true progressive you know a true kind of you know the

Carter 18:18

way to actually reduce this is to put the tax on on people who are uh going to be rational uh players in the marketplace and the only rational players in the marketplace place like if we were bringing in a system that made sense it would have been cap and trade at the corporate level right cap and trade at the corporate level brings rational players who are seeking to minimize their costs cory and i aren't seeking to minimize our costs we're looking for something else right like lots of people in our market don't take a rational view towards spending and you

Carter 18:52

you know there's too much need required so i just think that this is the uh

Carter 18:57

uh this is the natural endgame of a policy that didn't fit the requirements.

Carter 19:02

requirements. If we want to reduce carbon, which I think that everybody

Carter 19:06

everybody on this podcast does, and probably 90% of our audience does, if

Carter 19:10

if you want to reduce carbon, there's more than one way to skin that particular cat.

Corey 19:14

Yeah. And look, I think cap and trade has

Corey 19:17

has challenges for industry because it doesn't provide year over year certainty, right? You're essentially, you

Corey 19:23

you don't know what you're going to to pay. And I think that's a problem for that particular policy. But there are carbon prices, including industrial carbon tax and a large emitter carbon tax that you can bring in. And I agree with Stephen wholeheartedly.

Corey 19:37

They're this passionately added to their spreadsheets. They might not like it. They might lobby against it. But at the end of the day, it doesn't have the same emotional hurt and political hurt that a consumer carbon tax does. And people get frustrated frustrated with things like carbon taxes because they've made decisions they're not necessarily like okay we've had a this carbon tax has been telegraphed in this country for a long time it became a real thing in 2019 the escalation was announced we knew exactly where this was going there's still people who bought that f-150 in 2019 and they're like oh my god i had no idea gas would get so expensive as a result because you

Corey 20:16

you know you're actually really asking a lot i think of the average consumer to forward plan like that. They're going to do shit, and then they're not going to do different shit until they're hit with something like this. But again, the pain is the point. And if you're a politician in a democracy, why are you creating policies that are so deeply unpopular, especially when they are just a means to an end? So I mean, I've said this on this pod so many times. I've never understood how the left-wing parties became enamored with this With the Michael Chong carbon

Zain 20:49

carbon tax in some ways, yeah. Well,

Corey 20:51

Well, because there's a thing, like the conservatives are not wrong about one thing. The carbon tax does not reduce carbon output on its own, right? Right. Like the carbon tax is designed to encourage you to do something with a stick, as you put it, Zane. But you don't need to do it with sticks. You can do it with incentives. You can do it with regulation. Are these things as economically efficient? Nah, probably not, right? But they are certainly more politically efficient. And they're certainly much more likely to survive in the long term in a democracy. You

Zain 21:22

You know, as we – it's almost starting like a wake for the carbon tax, which we probably should have and we will. It

Carter 21:29

It will be our next live

Zain 21:29

live show. Yeah, we'll just do a whole ceremony. Yeah. Of course, it will be somber.

Zain 21:35

somber. It will, of course, come with its own rebate. Tickets will be free, but you'll have to pay and then eventually equalize and everyone will get a – Yeah,

Corey 21:43

Yeah, that's actually the – Yeah,

Zain 21:45

Yeah, it must be an EFT in your bank account. The

Zain 21:47

tickets will be extraordinarily expensive. Yeah, CDN, RBT. We'll give you the money. Yeah, you'll eventually get the money. Hey, I've got a question for you guys.

Zain 21:59

Pierre Polyev has a lot of interesting new friends.

Zain 22:03

Axe to Tax is his. It's his. He owns that moniker. He's been the principal opponent against the Carbon Tax, the loudest one for the longest time. As you've just said, he's

Zain 22:14

he's now got a lot of new friends. He's got Alberta NDP leadership candidates. He's got premiers in Newfoundland and Labrador, a premier. He's got opposition leaders wearing red in New Brunswick and in Ontario.

Zain 22:28

How are you embracing them, if at all? How are you embracing and welcoming your new friends to the club, Stephen Carter, to maximize political pain for your opponent and, frankly, to maximize political gain for yourself? How is Pierre Polyev dealing with his newfound strange bedfellows?

Carter 22:45

I mean, when you're the leader, you don't have to you don't have to look back at the followers. He's the leader. Everybody else was is following him.

Carter 22:54

He shouldn't even pay attention. He's the Pied Piper here. He's just leading all the rats to the sea. So, you know, that's that's what he's doing. And all these people jumping on board are just rats going to the sea. So he shouldn't

Zain 23:05

acknowledge that he's building this coalition, so to speak, even accidentally, that he's built this coalition. Corey, would you advise Polyev to acknowledge their existence in some way, to leverage their existence in some way?

Corey 23:21

Yeah, of course. I think you can actually make a broader point about Confederation and say, look, I'm going to put forward things that work for all sorts of people. Look how many liberal premiers and liberal party leaders support my common sense solutions to axe the tax. This is what's going to happen under a Pierre Poliev government. You're going to find Confederation

Corey 23:39

Confederation is going to work an awful lot better than it does under Justin Trudeau, who did nothing but antagonize people, create these systems, get into provincial jurisdiction. That's not my business. That's not my business. and you know what the proof is in the pudding because these people have every reason not to support my policy initiatives but they do and you know why because they're right for canadians and they can't avoid that simple truth justin

Corey 24:02

trudeau however fingers in his ears walking around

Corey 24:07

fingers in ears but also flipping you the bird like he's got like many fingers he's using some of them in different ways i

Carter 24:11

i think that that's what he does when he wins yeah

Carter 24:15

zane and cory i think that that's what he does why not now why not now card

Zain 24:18

card i'm actually with cory on

Carter 24:22

the leader be the only this will be the leader mean black t-shirt with

Carter 24:26

be the leader mean

Zain 24:27

mean ignore anyone that is in your midst like absolutely

Carter 24:30

absolutely that is an insane model of leadership no

Carter 24:33

no that is that is what's required for political success this has to be his i'm sorry

Zain 24:39

sorry is that like

Carter 24:39

like an overarching philosophy

Zain 24:40

philosophy for you i'm actually now genuinely curious open this bracket no

Carter 24:44

this is a this is a in this moment when you're when your followers are adversaries and let's be clear

Zain 24:50

clear these are adversaries in

Zain 24:51

in some way a lot of friends who've joined them early but yes most recent

Zain 24:56

convert on this issue yes but

Carter 24:58

but a lot of them like what is he going to do do a fucking rally with racky pancholi like come on now like let's think this all the way i would pay

Zain 25:06

pay to see that rack

Zain 25:08

right rock the subway rack the attacks is what you said rack

Zain 25:13

nice speaking of not elegant that's

Carter 25:16

that's really good zane that

Zain 25:18

that campaign you rack something have buttons fundraise for those buttons i'll donate um carter

Zain 25:25

carter seriously though yeah seriously like according like i'm

Zain 25:29

i'm not gonna i'm not gonna make your point i i've

Carter 25:30

i've said it twice i can say

Carter 25:32

no i don't need you to say it

Zain 25:33

it a third time i'm

Carter 25:34

i'm gonna say it a third time

Carter 25:34

time i just don't i just when he's leading the issue you do not invite invite people in to come and lead it with you. It's already done. He's got the leadership. He should be running out in front of that leadership. I'm glad you said it a third time because that was actually, in

Zain 25:46

in fact, the most cogent way to say it thus far. So I think we should give you... Allow everybody else who's following to continue. That was so cogent that it was even persuasive. Corey, are you persuaded?

Corey 25:58

I think the other reason to be persuaded is if you allow all of the liberals to jump on board and say, yeah, we've got problems with this too, it moves from being a liberal tax to a justin trudeau tax and if justin trudeau does retire if his caucus does encourage him to find the door then maybe all of the baggage of the tax goes with him and that's not in your interest if you're pierre paulie if you want the liberal party to wear this tax and

Corey 26:21

if half the liberals in this country are opposed to the tax maybe maybe that's a little harder for you

Corey 26:26

look at that carter

Zain 26:27

you sold me in very quick like in 40 seconds you like converted me on that on that item i

Carter 26:33

can do so much in 40 seconds i think that's how both of my kids were conceived so i

Carter 26:38

too much nobody saw that for a mile

Carter 26:40

away like a mile away too

Carter 26:42

too much i can never tell piece of you die okay

Zain 26:46

um carter never enough steve carter can i can i can i ask you about this um yeah

Zain 26:52

help craft the prime minister's messaging now that he has chosen his lane is

Zain 26:58

is it is it like he had a and i'm going to his second West Wing, right? He had a West Wing-y, Mulrooney maybe is a better, my job's not to be popular, folks. My job's to do the hard things and to do it well and to do, and like, and I'm paraphrasing here, right? There was that comment made in Calgary at a press conference. This was about the April 1st escalation of the carbon price. That

Zain 27:18

That was a version of his response.

Zain 27:22

What is his response here? Like, if this is a man who is now having to lean into deep conviction conviction that this is what we need to do then

Zain 27:31

then channel deep conviction for me channel right thing to do how high are you going with this rhetorical sort of loftiness are you going to the sky around like my job isn't to do this my job is that are you getting into the weeds like tell me fine craft this sort of like future oriented messaging for a guy that has picked his lane now

Zain 27:54

at least give me the structure of how to think about it how how should i be processing this

Carter 27:58

the first thing that popped into my mind is we need to make this climate emergency more real

Carter 28:03

right the making this climate emergency more real continues to be the best mechanism by which we can force people to begin to solve the climate emergency so this

Carter 28:15

this summer is going to be brutal right this summer is going to be brutal i'm not sure if you guys have been following the amount amount of snow that's landed on the west coast the lack of snow that's fallen on the eastern slopes of the of the canadian rockies um people are already gearing up we're already getting uh what are they calling them ghost fires already uh popping up in in alberta fires that didn't stop burning from last year through the winter uh starting to burn again um you know every year we court more and more natural disasters maybe the way that he should be doing this is saying this This is what the carbon tax is for, is to stop, you know, to minimize these. And if we don't take more action, maybe the action should be, let's raise the fucking tax and stop these fucking emergencies. Now, unfortunately, they're not related.

Carter 29:01

We can axe the tax. We can axe the tax. We can increase the tax. We can do whatever we want with the tax. We're already so far down the climate change hole that

Carter 29:09

that we're pretty much fucked for the next, well,

Carter 29:12

well, I don't know how long.

Zain 29:14

I don't know. That was cheerful. Yeah. Thank

Carter 29:16

Thank you. Well, I mean, I try to bring a little bit of joy. But your

Zain 29:19

your response, a good one is 40 seconds at a time. Yeah, he

Zain 29:22

he should he should get way better at problem definition, right?

Zain 29:27

right? Like, like, get way crisper on the on the severity of the issue so that his policy maybe has a fighting chance to have some survivability or some sort of element of like, OK, I get it, dude. Like, you know, but

Carter 29:43

but the problem is there's like 15 other ways to solve that, too. right there's 15 other ways to attach crime yeah to

Carter 29:49

to try to deal with climate change um

Carter 29:52

but what's interesting about

Zain 29:53

about is that none of his i'm going to call it policy opponents because some of them are not necessarily political opponents in this like i refer to some of the liberal premiers not necessarily political they aren't really kind of committed right they haven't said like cap and trade right like i've always been a cap and trade person that's what i want to do though there's just been like you know my plan will not include the consumer facing carbon tax because that thing right now is polling in the shitter like that's pretty much what all of of them have said some version of it. So it's not like anyone else is coming out with another sort of policy, aggressively championing it in that way. They're just saying, I'll

Zain 30:24

I'll have a thing, my thing will be great, it will be a great thing, but it will not be this thing. Right, Corey? So something to kind of keep in mind. Help the Prime Minister. What would you suggest, Corey?

Corey 30:36

Well, I want to go down the road that Stephen started taking us for a bit here, because I think that one of the challenges that I have had

Corey 30:45

had with the carbon tax, and we've talked about this before, is

Corey 30:49

is it really is this thing where everyone's trying to be like, oh, no, no, no, there's nothing, there's no downside, right? You get more money and it fights climate tax. It slices, it dices, it makes julienned fries. You can do it in four easy payments. You won't even notice them because I'm giving you the money for those four easy payments. And I think that there is a fundamental disconnect here. Like in some ways, we talk about, oh, this is a political policy, and the problem is there's pain. Well, there's pain, and we're pretending there's not pain, is actually probably a better way to put the problem.

Corey 31:21

You almost want the prime minister, you don't, you do, but stay with me for a minute. When someone's like, man, the carbon tax sucks. Yeah, it fucking sucks. The planet is on fucking fire. You know, this is what we now have to do. this is a very serious thing this is serious as cancer and so let's get moving on this thing and and in some ways we have kind of fuzzed the stakes out of the picture like there's just too much blur and now people don't even sort of the conversation about the carbon tax is not even really about climate change anymore as a result of all of these puts and takes and the money coming and going and people saying i don't get it how does this do anything if you're giving me the money back that i'm taking and i do kind of wonder if the carbon tax might be a little bit more comprehensible

Corey 32:04

comprehensible to canadians if it's like you got a new tax to pay now and we're going to use that money on on climate mitigation and we're going to spend that money directly on kind of improving all of these things to reduce carbon output and and you know instead of all of this money floating around like this being like yeah guys it's time to get serious about this this is a really bad thing and this This is now what we have to do. I wonder. I mean, we don't have that parallel universe, but I kind of wonder if what's missing is that moral clarity. And if they haven't made this thing so complicated, nobody understands the connection to kind of the defining issue of our times.

Zain 32:39

times. It's really interesting. It's a point that both of you, you've made eloquently,

Zain 32:43

eloquently, which is this concept of the stakes, right? Like, which is not just a moral point, but I think perhaps that's the emotional point, Carter, right? It's like the emotional point. But it's like, in its own right, it reminds me of, take a journey with me for a second. But I was watching this interview with Gary Oldman, who I'm like a big fan of, right? The actor. And he was talking about how- Not

Corey 33:05

a guy named Gary who's an old

Zain 33:06

old man. No, no, this is Gary Oldman, who's an old man who's played several old men, right? So Gary Oldman, old man, played several old men. One of the old men he was playing was Commissioner Gordon in Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight. Right. And he's like, Christopher Nolan never gives any direction. Like he just like lets you do takes again, except one time he walked over to him and he said, the

Zain 33:30

the stakes are higher. And he was like, get it. Like that's I got it. Like that's the only note I need. Like, I don't need you to tell me what to do. I don't need you to tell me how to act. Like what I was doing, the stakes are way higher than what they were. And I will like I will emotionally take that in and I'll give you a performance that that that that builds builds that in. And I think, Corey, you used the word of the stakes. Like, I think this is missing an emotional draw. Right now, we're talking about it in the face of, like, pure affordability, right? It's like, I fucking can't pay this because I can't pay other shit. And, like, we've bought that frame, Carter. We've purchased the frame that this is now a burden alongside groceries, you know, housing, you know, lack of future opportunity, whatever that might be on a financial dollars and cents front. And we've lost the stakes. and the stakes are higher, Carter, aren't they?

Carter 34:23

They're massive. And we've been on the climate change discussion for quite some time. How does one change climate change in the face of selfishness? And this is ultimately what we're dealing with right now, is that our own selfishness is ultimately stopping us from dealing with climate change.

Carter 34:47

Also, just the construction of this, Going back to Corey's earlier point, the construction of this does not instill a tremendous amount of confidence that we're actually going to see any change in the climate as a result of this policy. So, I

Carter 35:03

I mean, I'm actually starting to coming down on the side of doubling down on this thing and start sending out some fucking enormous checks.

Carter 35:13

But we'll see. We'll see what happens. Let's end

Zain 35:15

end us off here. What if there was a world tomorrow where this prime minister, who may have nothing to lose, right?

Zain 35:22

right? If he's accepted defeat, he has nothing to lose.

Zain 35:25

Takes Corey's advice, takes the Christopher Nolan sort of advice and says, fuck it, the stakes are higher. And that's the performance I'm giving here on in.

Zain 35:34

That is the performance I am giving here on in. None of you fuckers have actually proposed anything. We've built this policy up for nearly a decade. The stakes are higher. What if he were to take that and lean into what both of you are saying around problem definition, around moral clarity, around emotional resonance, and would say every time this is brought up, this is, you know, you may want to compare it to your next sort of grocery cart of food, but I'm going to talk about it here. Is that a recipe for utter fucking disconnected disaster? Being like, this guy's even more fucking disconnected with reality? or is that a semblance of something there? I'll start Carter and then Corey, I'm going to get you to respond to what Carter said.

Carter 36:14

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's really interesting. I'm starting to think that this is a possible play,

Carter 36:20

play, you know, like the carbon tax is going up to what? It's, I can't even, I'm trying to find it right now. I can't even find it, but it's not going up too much. Maybe it needs to go up dramatically. dramatically maybe it needs to go up to the point where it's like 200 a ton and because that's where it needs to be to actually start seeing real turndowns uh and how much carbon we start to consume but do you know how much money we'd get in the in the rebates at 200 a ton cory

Carter 36:52

like seriously the buy my vote strategy might just be the right way to go um because you can't you know right now 250 bucks goes into your account that's nice but it's not it's not something to really write home about uh two three thousand dollars a year starts dropping into your account and you're starting to notice things it's

Corey 37:10

it's very interesting to me and i almost want to throw out as a thought exercise the opposite what

Corey 37:16

what would happen if he got rid of the rebate checks either for everybody or for higher income canadians and just you know hear me out for a second nobody seems to care about them or credit them anyways maybe the only

Corey 37:27

only way to get well

Corey 37:29

well maybe the only way way to get people to care about them and know they exist is to create a crisis about the checks and so if we're talking about the long-term legacy of this policy if you're like okay you're right checks are done we're instead going to direct invest that money into uh you know climate mitigation

Corey 37:45

forest fires all of this yeah exactly then

Corey 37:50

i mean i mean i think it's political suicide but i think it's an interesting way to die politically because what does pierre polyev do do at that point because then all of a sudden is he going to be defending the carbon tax checks

Corey 38:02

or is he going to say don't worry i'm going to get rid of the tax right away or how does the conversation change when the debate is about the money rather than the tax

Carter 38:12

that'd be funny that

Zain 38:13

that would be fun that'd be interesting i

Carter 38:16

i mean i'm not sure in good conscience i could recommend that i mean i can i think i could recommend increasing the tax and increasing the payments i think i could i could recommend moving the tax to the corporate structure i think i could recommend cory's strategy of reducing uh the number of things that are subject to the tax um could

Zain 38:33

could you could you recommend i'm not sure

Carter 38:35

sure i could recommend eliminating the gil bowing

Zain 38:37

bowing trudeau could you recommend trudeau just taking on an activist stance on this file every time it's brought up here on in i

Carter 38:45

mean i could see it um

Carter 38:48

i could see it yeah

Carter 38:50

yeah i think i could recommend it i think that that would work if

Carter 38:56

he committed to doing more action well

Corey 38:59

well also what is his goal here it is i'm assuming still re-election although i think we all three think that's increasingly remote but if his goal is legacy going

Corey 39:09

going out in a blaze of glory about the importance of the carbon tax and climate action i mean i think history is going to be pretty kind to him 30 40 years down the road if that's

Zain 39:19

that's maybe it's quotes like you know i'm not my job isn't to be popular sort of thing kind of stand the test of time in that regard in some sort of like you know weird

Zain 39:27

weird perverted way they're just like playing in the on a burning lcd in the middle of a forest somewhere in some dystopian film we

Corey 39:37

leave that segment there carter moving on to our next segment

Zain 39:40

segment hot potato wedges which is a A weirdly unserious title for a serious topic. But I want to talk about a political wedge that has just come

Zain 39:48

come down, which is the NDP motion on Palestine. And it is an interesting political wedge, Carter, because it is one that one might think was meant for the liberals who are now trying to pass it over, hot potato it over to the conservatives. But what's ended up happening very recently, as we record right now, the House of Commons passed a softened, amended, whatever you want to call it, NDP motion on Monday night that no longer calls for the federal government to officially recognize Palestinian statehood after last-minute amendments were brought in. There's 14 amendments that said we're now going to work towards the establishment of the state of Palestine as part of a negotiated two-state solution. The motion was passed. Many thought it would not happen, but it was indeed passed. I'm just pulling in the number here, 204 to 117. So it, of course, had NDP support. It had some liberal support. report. Every conservative voted against it, from what I'm reading here, Carter. But let's, you know, we could talk about the issue at hand. We could talk about Gaza at hand. We've talked about it extensively. But help me understand the politics here. Carter, who was this a political wedge for?

Zain 40:52

Was it a political wedge? Was it for the liberals so that you could peel some of them off? And, you know, Anthony Housefather, who has clearly been against something like this, and Marco Manduccino has clearly been against something like this, might have a bit of a rift with some of their colleagues? Was this meant for the conservatives, every single one of them not voting for? Who was this for? And I hate to sound so crass about it, but this is the strategist. We talk about the political calculus. Carter, talk to me about it.

Carter 41:18

Well, I really felt that this was a trap for the liberals. And I think that the amendments that were proposed actually did a little bit of judo

Carter 41:28

judo on this and shifted it over to the conservatives that now look like they're the ones who aren't supporting a Middle East peace process.

Carter 41:38

You know, I mean, tens of thousands of people have died in this conflict. And this is, there was a time when calling for the ceasefire was too early. And perhaps this is a time when it's too late.

Carter 41:53

But the NDP motion, I

Carter 41:55

I think, really did show the weakness of the liberal government. but

Carter 41:59

now the liberals have somehow managed to make it so that it's a it's a draw a little bit and the conservatives are the ones who who took the bigger hit a

Carter 42:08

pretty decent pretty decent day in government i think um given that this wasn't actually a government proposal which would have been by the way the way to go um

Carter 42:16

um it would have been better to have this as a uh government action i'm not sure it would have needed to be a motion in the house of commons but a government action Reaction would have had a lot more value than just a simple reaction as they kind of bumble their way, continued through our challenges with this unbelievable and deadly war. Corey,

Zain 42:41

Corey, Carter's right. This is non-binding. It's an NDP motion. Yes, it had liberal support. Yes, it passed. But at the end of the day, it doesn't really necessarily equate to anything. None of the amendments here, you know, and none of the principles here really make it anywhere, so to speak. But it is a symbol and it is a political instrument. And it is a wedge. And Corey, who was that wedge for in your mind?

Corey 43:02

what is it a symbol of? I don't – what's so interesting to me is at least the notion of a two-state solution. That's been Canadian policy, I think, since the Oslo Accords. It's certainly the formal policy of the government of Canada that Palestinians have the right to self-determination and the right to statehood. So, quite impressive that they've managed to just re-bundle. Interesting, too, that you've re-bundled kind of the current status quo and managed to get the conservatives mad about it. I know there's more in it

Corey 43:34

that. You talked about 14 amendments. I have to go through the actual language of this particular motion.

Corey 43:41

the reality is, it's the status quo, right? It's the status quo, maybe with different rhetoric around it. But is there anything, sincere question, is there anything new here relative to what Canadian foreign policy was this

Zain 43:55

Yeah, I think explicitly calling out working towards Palestinian statehood probably might be something that NDP supporters kind of say, listen, this is the closest and most explicit we've ever gotten to. That's

Corey 44:08

That's not even true. Can I read you this from General Affairs Canada's website? Canada recognizes the Palestinian right to self-determination and supports the creation of a sovereign, independent, viable, democratic, and territorial contiguous Palestinian state.

Corey 44:24

is the policy of the government of Canada. That has been since, that was under Harper, that was under all of the governments going back to the 90s.

Zain 44:32

Rhetoric and language was added around Israel having the right to defend itself, that Hamas is a terrorist organization. The amendment motion also calls for seizing the further transfer of arms to Israel, instead of asking to suspend all sales of military equipment to Israel, and increasing efforts to stop the illegal trades of arms, including to Hamas. To your point, you know, this could be a repackaged higher

Zain 44:57

higher order rhetoric of status quo, you know, policy, enshrined policy. You may even call it, right, as you kind of talk about across multiple prime ministers, across multiple governments.

Zain 45:09

All to say, Corey, is

Zain 45:11

is Carter right that this has ended up being a wedge against the conservatives? Like, will they be paying a political price for something like this as they, let me speak crassly, try to continue to court the Muslim vote in very different ways with other files that they've been introducing to that community?

Corey 45:28

Well, it's interesting, because I did catch comments by Lanzmann, and she was saying that this would be rewarding Hamas, right? Giving Hamas what they wanted. Now, those were comments relative to the original motion that, you know, called for statehood, right? Right.

Corey 45:44

I, I'm, I'm wondering if the conservatives didn't just like, fail

Corey 45:48

fail to pivot, right? When everything changed, say, okay, hold on, what are we actually opposed to now? Again, I've got to go back through it. Maybe there are things that the conservatives specifically would have exception around. I'm not entirely sure. But when you look at kind of the core of it all there,

Corey 46:04

Hamas terrorist, Israel right to defend themselves, recognize Palestinian right to self-determination.

Zain 46:13

What's new? You know what's interesting, Carter, is that Corey might be right, is that the pivot here might be exactly it, because Scheer called on the Speaker to consider the ruling to say, look, there's been massive changes. Can we defer this vote on it tomorrow? That did not happen. And then, of course, here they are on the other side of this vote, right?

Zain 46:29

right? And so it did not get delayed. They could not absorb it. They could not pivot. They could not reconcile, you know, where their policy positions lay within, if we can call it, and we might regret these words, but let's do it now for argument's sake as we talk about the politics of it, an enhanced version of the status quo, Carter, like, does that cost you? Do these procedural, like, what I find interesting about this is why I want to focus on the politics, less so on Gaza right now. Do these procedural sort of lack of being able to pivot, you know, being on the wrong side of a vote that ages poorly in 12 hours, let alone a week from now, do these cost political political parties? Or is it all about what happens, you know, on your message box on your time? And I guess that's what I'm trying to understand, because I came into it with a similar, this was a wedge for the liberals to try to pass it on to the conservatives, and they may have actually succeeded in that regard with some of these changes.

Carter 47:21

Well, it really depends on how engaged your voter is. I mean, in the United States, you're seeing Republicans who voted against all kinds of different spending initiatives, you know, standing up and trying to to hold on to the big checks as they're they're paying for big infrastructure projects you know this is uh i think

Carter 47:40

think that for the people who are hyper engaged on this issue this is a big issue and the conservatives are probably going to suffer a little bit with this with that group i know that uh you know the muslim population in general zane and and i'm going to uh you know beg your your forgiveness as i as i explain this to you please do yeah but yeah they're very uh they're

Carter 48:04

worked up zane they're

Carter 48:05

they're worked up not me and this is great there's

Zain 48:08

there's no you feel great i don't feel

Zain 48:11

internal or external you're

Carter 48:12

you're doing fine but

Carter 48:14

but this is a uh this

Carter 48:16

this is a big deal and the liberals were way offside with the muslim population um up to this point and this

Carter 48:24

this may be be the first step in some sort of a reconciliation towards it. And I don't think that the, I don't believe the conservatives took a first step, took a better step towards having that audience today. Well,

Zain 48:33

Well, on that particular point, like, you know, not to speak of the Muslim community or any community as a monolith, even though certain political parties, or perhaps all political parties, like to look at communities as such, with a very simplistic filter or very simplistic lens. But there is a lot of interesting political wedges happening to that community right now, And it all kind of stems from the premise that that vote is up for grabs. It no longer squarely and surely belongs to the liberals. The NDP feel like there's access through it to that voting bloc based on Gaza, right? And the conservatives, Carter, feel like there's tremendous access to it to allow Muslims to voice their opinion, or certain Muslims, to be very clear, to voice their opinion that they may have been harboring for years around trans issues, for example. And it's a really interesting sort of wedge that is dividing the community right now. When you say it's worked up, let me speak clearly about it. Like those two issues right now on a week to week, day to day basis is kind of the heart of what I brought to you guys a couple episodes ago when I made a point about Gaza, but it got, you know, tangled and used as political ammunition for a point about trans issues. I mean, this continues. And the calls get louder and louder. And part of me wonders, Carter, will the conservatives who have been the engineers, political engineers of the trans rights issue across the country have been peeling off Muslim communities or at least certain Muslim individuals or prominent members of that community to their political side? Will they even pay an issue when you're helping a community on one side and you might necessarily be inactive on another side sort of thing? And I kind of always think about it in those terms, despite, you know, fully admitting that it's not a monolithic community. community.

Carter 50:23

Yeah, I mean, it depends. Everything depends, right? The challenges

Carter 50:27

challenges of getting people to vote for you is knowing what issue they're going to care about for how long. And the truth is, we don't know. We

Carter 50:36

We don't know how long these issues are going to be top of mind. And, you know, when you start throwing in the, you know, the Hindu issues around, you know, the anger of the the Trudeau government towards the government of Moti. Holy shit, you know, you've got a visible

Carter 50:53

visible minority population that's as cranked up as we've seen in Canadian history.

Carter 51:01

we have no historical precedent to go back to,

Carter 51:04

to talk about this. And, you

Carter 51:08

know, I for one am fascinated. I mean, it feels to me like a minority standing up for its rights and its point of view on many different things, but it's also out of step with some of our our cultural norms so i'm dying to see how this ends yeah

Zain 51:22

yeah and there's many tales around like why we're at this place what you know what the pandemic caused did we miss a a broad movement of integration in this country is this always been the case there's just so many underlying questions that frankly i think are being ignored that frankly they were not talking about enough and and i know this podcast isn't the place to do it cory pierre pauliev tomorrow morning he realizes they failed to pivot fuck right

Zain 51:46

right help him clean up his mess i

Corey 51:50

think that it's as simple as what andrew here did saying we we are railroaded what we were mad about is the process we take our job as legislators very seriously and this government clearly does not and they pushed through a bill that nobody had time to to

Corey 52:06

to to read God, we couldn't consult on it. We couldn't even read it. This thing, not a bill of motion, this thing just happened so very quickly. And we frankly, we

Corey 52:15

we have more respect for Parliament than that. And so yeah, we oppose the motion. But you oppose it, Zane, on procedural grounds. You don't necessarily have to oppose it on content if when you've done the final summation, you're

Corey 52:26

you're like, well, the content is actually not objectionable, or it aligns with where we want to be as a conservative. We're

Zain 52:33

We're going to leave that segment there. Carter, move it on to our over, under, or lightning round. Carter, I don't know if you know this, but this is a segment that we reserve and bring

Zain 52:41

bring up every once in a while, especially for you.

Carter 52:45

Is it because I look like I'm ready to go to bed? No,

Zain 52:47

No, it's because you've won

Zain 52:48

won no more and no less than two regional campaigns.

Carter 52:55

Four at least. Four at least? Four.

Carter 53:01

I've lost a lot of those, too, but four at least, and some smaller regional ones, too. I'm just saying.

Corey 53:08

you're in the ass, you are.

Corey 53:09

Stack up enough regions, you've

Zain 53:11

you've got a country, so that's all good. Over, under on four, the amount of regional cafes Stephen Carter has won. Is it going to be under? It's going to be under, right? It's going to be over. It's going to

Corey 53:20

to be over. You have a very loose definition of region. I think anything larger than my city block is a region. I

Carter 53:26

I mean, Che is a region. Che

Corey 53:28

Che is a region.

Carter 53:28

We need to install a mayor

Corey 53:32

I'm pretty sure I'm the chamber. Are you the chamber? Yeah.

Carter 53:35

He's the only one flying the flag. That

Corey 53:36

That is true. I got a flag. Have you sold any

Corey 53:39

flags, by the way? You deeply discounted. Have I? Have we? Have we sold flags?

Zain 53:43

flags? You deeply discounted the flags.

Corey 53:46

We did make them like $2 at one point. And how much did they cost?

Corey 53:50

They cost like 20-some to produce. So there was a bit of loss. Did we sell any

Zain 53:56

sold a few. Okay, we sold. So you lost like 50 bucks in this process.

Corey 54:00

A little more than 50 bucks, but I wouldn't worry about it. As the mayor of Cheyenne,

Corey 54:05

your books are going to be due at some point.

Corey 54:09

It's a lost leader. It's a lost leader.

Corey 54:12

That means it's good for the business.

Zain 54:14

Carter, are you in or out? This one's curious. I wanted to get to the over-under and the lightning round pretty quickly because this topic fascinates me. Are you in or are you out on Pierre Pauliev's most recent rhetoric against big business? Speaking to a Vancouver Chamber of Commerce, he said, listen, my message to corporate candidates is that when I'm prime minister, if you want any of your policy agenda pushed forward, you're going to have to convince not just me, but the people of Canada. It's good for them. He called corporate lobbyists in Ottawa utterly useless. He said that he wouldn't listen to them. He wouldn't engage them. You know, then the rhetoric continues about like, oh, my daily obsession is going to be what's good for Canadians. But you think of conservatives and you think of big business and you think of, you know, chum chum. This is interesting in some ways. This is kind of going after the professional lobbying class, which is an easy class to kick on. But Carter, are you in or are you out on this Pierre Polyev big business

Zain 55:07

business rhetoric and perhaps down the line policy orientation? orientation i

Carter 55:15

i am out i think that i think he's lying first of all i think he's he's saying these words because he this is just another uh populist track on his record of populism that he's he's been listening to and he's just playing it yeah that's right cory record of populism that's what it was yeah i could tell that you were a little bit shocked by the dated reference but you've

Carter 55:37

you've got got an lp player i know you do anyways i think that it's ridiculous i think that you know if i think people may not be able to see through it but i think that this is just another one of his little games that he's playing cory

Zain 55:49

cory you in or out on pierre pauliev on his um carter

Zain 55:53

carter calls it populist perhaps even reactionary but are you in or out on his on his rhetoric against corporate canada slash big business and lobbyists in that in that uh in that same frame

Corey 56:04

I don't think it's particularly new. It's in the DNA going back to the Reform Party of Canada, obviously, a bit of a predecessor to today's Conservative Party. This notion that Bay Street is captured by central Canadian interests that are not necessarily your interests is a generation

Corey 56:21

generation old at this particular point. And fundraising letters from the Conservatives for literal decades have said things like, we have your interests at heart. We're not just about the really entitled, really connected people in downtown Toronto. And the Liberals have been the establishment party for so long. Of course, the big establishment corporations are going to be, there's going to be connections there that the Conservatives are going to resent, that Conservatives are going to call out. And this rhetoric is in no way an escalation, in my opinion. I think it is probably many things the conservatives have said in different settings, all at once, and in kind of the peevish tone that is the trademark of Pierre Polyev. Do

Zain 57:04

Do you think it'll last, like Carter? Do you feel like it's a robust, like, here to stay, or do you think it's a for the moment?

Corey 57:11

No, I think that it is something that people say, and then when you're prime minister, you have to deal with these people. And it's true, by the way, of left-wing governments as well. You might think you're never going to talk to an oil lobbyist, but guess what? You're going to talk to an oil lobbyist. And that's because they represent very large corporations that represent lots of employees, that represent lots of income, that represent lots of tax revenue, that represent lots of trade. And they're quite important. And in fact, it's pretty hard to manage a country when you're not dealing with multi-billion dollar stakeholders.

Corey 57:47

That's just the reality. So

Corey 57:49

So they're going to talk to

Zain 57:50

them. And I think the added element to that, that I think we

Zain 57:54

we should at least mention, maybe don't harp upon, is that when you think of like big oil lobbyists, you might be thinking of like, you know, the Thank You for Smoking Aaron Eckhart movie, right? Where they're like the merchants of death all kind of come together, also known as Dave, right? Where they kind of come together, and they're like, you know, they're greasy. They're like, you know, no, in some ways, like, yes, potentially, but in many ways, no, right? And I think the fact is that one of the reasons lobbying works on its fundamental level is,

Zain 58:25

is, yes, Corey, it's the multi-billion dollar stakeholders that move the economy, etc. But it's a people business. And a lot of these people are not the type of characters that we think of when we think of lobbyists or when we think of government relations specialists or public affairs specialists, that they're not, you know, they're not coming in with like this bulldozing sort of, you know, bull in a china shop like sort of approach. They're actually reasonable, they can talk your language, they can be, and I think that is just as important. Like, and I know it's such an elementary point, as the fact that the industry that they advocate for in certain cases may be misaligned or not aligned with what you carry. Yes. Yes.

Corey 59:06

Well, it's more, you know, that is 100% true. It doesn't actually look like the caricature up close. And the other thing is modern lobbying is not lobbyists walking in and talking to politicians. I mean, that doesn't

Corey 59:23

lobbyists talk to staff and arrange meetings, but the meeting themselves usually happens with the CEO, chief operating officer, a vice president who's responsible for stuff or the region or whatnot. And so, in some ways, pretty

Corey 59:36

pretty effortless and pretty low consequence rhetoric. I'm not going to meet with lobbyists. You were never going to meet with a lobbyist. You were going to meet with the CEO of Suncor. You're going to meet with the CEO of RBC.

Corey 59:46

RBC. You're going to meet with the CEO of TD. And that's actually what it looks like when it actually finally hits the books of a minister or of a prime minister.

Zain 59:56

Corey, I'm going to go to our next one here, which is, have you seen this video by Sean Fraser, the Federal Housing Minister. It's this three-minute retort on Pierre Polyev on housing. You don't have to see it, because... Yeah, I have seen it. You don't have to see it. It's him voicing over it, reveals himself at the end. Classic construction in a video sense. But what I want to harp on is the line that they're floating out there. And this is a takedown of Pierre on housing. It tries to kind of talk about, you know, how he doesn't ultimately care. But the conclusion, Corey, is the thing Pierre cares about the most is Pierre. And they have this rapid fire series of clips where Pierre says, when I'm prime minister, when I'm prime minister, when I'm prime minister, me, me, me, prime minister. Okay, they're trying to make that point.

Zain 1:00:40

Are you in or are you out on that particular, I know it's slogan, and it doesn't capture the full sort of essence of what they're creating, but are you in or are you out on this line of attack that he's in it for himself, that Pierre cares about just Pierre?

Corey 1:00:58

don't i didn't okay so let me just say about this video like

Corey 1:01:01

like when was the original pierre polly a video like fucking hell guys move a little bit faster are you kidding me here that would have been brilliant if you brought it out you know in the next couple of days oh my god like this reminds me so much of the simpsons episode where somebody says hey don't be mad or mean to homer just because he's a little slow and he's like slow something was said and he stands up and he shouts like how dare you call me slow and he's in an empty room in the middle of of the night right and it's like what what are we doing here you know if this is your speed like they're gonna hit you in the election and you're gonna react when you're in opposition in the back benches here i like i don't understand that but that said i did think it was fairly well produced i thought that the god i hate the rhyming lines but pierre don't care it really sticks with me that's not so bad i didn't think that the end with like the me me me i i i was particularly strong though because all all they're doing is just ruthlessly

Corey 1:01:59

ruthlessly clipping very normal things for somebody to say

Zain 1:02:02

say carter i'm not saying that this is going to be their line going for that pierre doesn't care um or but but i am curious to like get your just

Zain 1:02:12

just your ginstict like as a strategist like when you hear the thing pierre cares about most is pierre as

Zain 1:02:17

as a strategist you're like hey there's something there are you like no there's nothing there no

Carter 1:02:22

no i think there is something there I think that he

Carter 1:02:25

comes across as arrogant and fairly focused on himself. And anytime you're up against a competition, I mean,

Carter 1:02:34

mean, all politicians are a degree of narcissist, right? Like, that's just the way that the world flows. But I think that Pierre

Carter 1:02:42

Pierre Polyev opens himself up to some significant criticism, especially with the makeover. I mean, we talked about that a little bit last year. he just looks like he's just a little too into himself wearing the black axe the tax um t

Zain 1:02:57

that is that's actually really interesting i was not planning to go here but can i agree and i don't cory well whatever man well jump in on this i don't know if you were going to jump in on like the the the the the the glow up if i can call it that right does the glow up like are you tying a line to glow up in narcissism is that like what i'm hearing you say carter

Corey 1:03:21

yeah look i think that there's like a lot of interesting photos where you're you're like are you flexing like the best

Corey 1:03:28

one is right like

Zain 1:03:29

like with the yeah you know what

Zain 1:03:31

what i'm talking about it

Corey 1:03:31

it was the one i was actually thinking

Zain 1:03:33

about so this is this is i think the night before the durham by-election it's like jamil in like a nice like paisley shirt like standard issue you know from the brett wilson collection nice shirt right uh and then he got and then he got pierre paulie f pig like oh is it cold out no i'm just gonna have these guns out just i'm gonna like i'm gonna flex very aggressively and

Zain 1:03:55

and you can't wear short sleeves only i can wear short sleeves in this shirt a

Corey 1:03:59

a little a little much a little much but i actually don't know i think that people are so used to the notion of image consultants and the idea that you want to look a certain way i don't know if they're gonna put it on him and i don't know i personally don't see much currency in suggesting he's into himself oh

Zain 1:04:17

oh that's interesting carter

Carter 1:04:18

carter would you attack them it's

Zain 1:04:19

it's so interesting because it's it's only one woman but i will give you sreya's reaction every time she sees pierre in his new get up and his new like i don't know how new the muscles are she clearly notices them more than i do mainly because i don't have any uh but she's like fuck he's just trying to be like that she's like she's just he's just trying to be like trudeau like is it what the fuck is she's like weirded out by it like she's like allergically weirded out by it she doesn't like him right like but like she's just like what the fuck is this okay so I wonder if there is something there Carter like and I don't know how you politically attack a glow up like

Corey 1:04:56

like I really don't know so here's the thing I what you said is what makes me think there's nothing there you are like holy crap you're gonna go into an election against Justin you're Justin Trudeau and you're gonna go into election against Pierre Polyev and suggest he's too into to himself like

Corey 1:05:12

like that is is that actually

Zain 1:05:13

actually what the other guy prime minister here is talking about saving the planet that's on fire and

Zain 1:05:19

the stakes are higher and

Zain 1:05:21

and he's embracing some yeah i mean i'm very old man then maybe cory i think it could work cory

Zain 1:05:27

i think carter's onto something we're gonna maybe maybe we're gonna leave that episode there that's a wrap on episode 1293 of the strategist my name is zane belgium with me as always cory hogan stephen carter and we'll see you next time ¶¶

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