Transcript
Zain
0:01
This is The Strategist, episode 1288. My name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Corey, he now comes to the show with not just a vigor, an energy to do this show, but he comes with a heart out. He's done this two episodes in a row. We're talking about none other than the man older than time, Stephen Carter.
Carter
0:22
Dancing. I got to get my movement
Carter
0:24
movement circle on my watch.
Carter
0:29
So I got to keep moving.
Zain
0:30
Sounds like dance is very... I don't like this at all. It's appropriating some culture. I don't know which one.
Zain
0:36
Okay, that's good. That's right. Yeah, I've seen this in the clubs. We don't have a culture per
Carter
0:41
but it works pretty well.
Zain
0:43
Carter's gesticulating in every direction. Yeah.
Zain
0:46
Yeah. Things are going well for
Carter
0:48
for him. Nope, just
Carter
0:49
just went. I'm good. good you're
Corey
0:52
there you go you got it all
Carter
0:52
all you have to do is get your rings to close it
Carter
0:55
it doesn't matter how you do them that's
Carter
0:56
that's what heather said all
Corey
0:58
all right yeah that's
Corey
1:00
that's what i do
Corey
1:00
this is gamification this is the downside of gamification is this
Carter
1:03
this the downside people
Carter
1:04
be getting healthier more
Corey
1:08
there's a there's a thing called goodhart's law which is that once um you know a measurement becomes a target it ceases to be a good measurement because Because people will inevitably game it and find their way to do it in the least amount of effort possible. And often that will negate any of the value of it. Because you'll have like some old white guy just shaking his arms around until he gets his rings closed. I
Zain
1:31
I think to bring it back home to our world, membership sales is a good metric, Carter. Why sell any memberships? It's no longer a good metric of anything. It's not a metric of anything. How many
Carter
1:44
many memberships did your campaign sell last week?
Zain
1:49
Oh, so many, Carter. Which campaign is that? Which campaign is that, Stephen Carter?
Carter
1:54
The Zane Velji for Leader campaign.
Zain
1:56
I mean, after that episode. I mean, are you
Carter
1:57
you working on two?
Zain
1:59
After that episode, Carter.
Corey
2:00
I really liked how Carter did that. That was really good. Let
Zain
2:03
Let me tell you something. After that episode. Who
Corey
2:05
Who else really liked that? Sound
Corey
2:06
Sound off in the comments. Yeah, that
Carter
2:08
that was all me.
Carter
2:09
you had a good time, hey, Zane?
Zain
2:11
Zane? You like that? I'm always hedging my bets. I'm always hedging my bets. Always hedging your
Zain
2:18
As you feel that I am a stalking horse, a Trojan horse, some sort of horse for another campaign, it's not true. Zane Velji's his own thing. Speaking of which, can I actually jump onto my first segment here? It is about one and
Corey
2:31
and only Zane Velji.
Zain
2:32
Velji. The first segment is called, Did Zane Velji Fuck Up? Guys, I'm going viral. I'm not even joking. A clip of- Are you actually going viral? Why? Yes, in a very specific, particular, and perhaps problematic way. And I actually want to talk to you guys about it. This is actually very, very interesting. Is this a real thing?
Corey
2:50
thing? It's totally a real
Zain
2:50
real thing. Okay. It's like a real thing in very small circles. So what ended up happening, you guys will recall, we recorded an episode on Friday where we talked about the National Council of Canadian Muslims. This is the group that had proposed that letter to MPs alongside certain congregations of mosques you see where this is going cory right um it says you guys are gonna be talking some hardcore muslim whatsapp politics in a second here okay
Carter
3:18
okay i love this this is
Zain
3:19
is gonna be great um this
Corey
3:21
this is our most accessible
Zain
3:21
accessible episode ever so on thursday night i was on par in politics and in the panel that i do um we have this gamified speaking of gamified we have to choose a story that's either up or down and then justify or rationalize why it's up or down the story i chose was this story and i said it wasn't up because i i like the fact that communities especially the Muslim community here, historically, largely voiceless, sometimes, you know, on the wrong side of other people's rhetoric and targeting, getting loud about what they care about, why they care about it, so to speak. I then also threw in, Corey, and this is where it might get problematic, I threw in the broader statement, I like when groups that are cultural or religious such as this one own their power. hour now now cory on whatsapp on whatsapp i'm being celebrated i'm getting the first the first couple hours they're like dude the talk's all about you a lot of love a lot of love from the community i'm like you know what i am a hero of the community this is good yeah they
Zain
4:21
they should be celebrating me i feel there's even though even though it's happening even
Zain
4:25
even though i'm part of the minority of this of the broader muslim community they're celebrating one of their own i like this cory it's going well for me okay i'm getting high off my supply and then cory guess Guess what? Last night, 1130 at night, I'm watching Love is Blind season six, which, by the way, amazing. No spoilers.
Zain
4:41
It's amazing. Perfect season.
Carter
4:42
season. It's not a good thing. Don't watch it. I
Zain
4:44
I get a series, not just one, a series of messages being like, dude, what the fuck are you doing? Conservative Muslims are now spreading your clip online as a suggestion that they should go even further on what politicians should or should not believe if they're able to use the prayer space or the mosque
Zain
5:05
So you see, Carter, I've gotten myself
Zain
5:08
a situation. The question is, did I fuck up? Because there's two ways to think about it. Number one, on the specifics, I'm glad that the Muslim community, at least this National Council of Canadian Muslims, has put out this letter. I believe in what they're trying to do by forcing the hand of politicians. I've largely been a believer for a long time that we have, as minority communities or religious communities, largely voiceless ones like the Muslim community, been too okay with politicians just coming and using us and treating us like a voter block and not expressing our power. So I'm happy with the fact that I said that. I'm not so happy that the implication here, Carter, is that on files that I'm absolutely opposed to, as in these Muslim groups or certain Muslim groups, I shouldn't say these, now taking a cue to say, you know what? Yeah, you can't come in and be pro-trans rights if you want to speak. I'm not saying anyone has said that, but the implication is certainly there. So the question to me is, A, did I fuck up? And B, and the answer could be yes, and I'm happy to take it. But B, what you guys think of communities using
Carter
6:11
using the stick versus
Zain
6:12
versus the carrot? So I want to throw both of those out there. Talk about the Zane Velji question first. And by extension, will this tank Zane Velji's leadership chances? Did he flag too close to the sun here? And if Zane Velji did fuck up, it was Zane Velji for leader, not me, that fucked up. Corey Hogan, you're first on deck.
Corey
6:31
Well, did you fuck up? Yes. What were your goals? you were providing commentary on a national tv show that wants to have relevant commentary that people are talking about and people are talking about it so if you think of yourselves as a cbc pundit congratulations you did the opposite of fucking up you actually did the thing that pundits try to do which is get into the discourse and get the discussion going okay
Zain
6:53
okay okay fair but that's
Corey
6:55
that's the but but if
Corey
6:57
if your goal was uh to advance progressive causes more broadly well then
Corey
7:03
then you fucked up right like i
Carter
7:05
i know here's the thing and i okay
Zain
7:07
okay go ahead carter you think i fucked up too right yeah
Carter
7:10
yeah here's here's the reason i don't know if you're aware of this i mean maybe you're not but some churches mosques temples no
Zain
7:16
no i don't i know you have different
Carter
7:17
different ideas and values than you do right so when you say i'm really glad that this group of people grabbed onto this and started to for this particular
Carter
7:27
particular issue which i've
Carter
7:28
i've which i've known like
Carter
7:29
stand by that i stand by by that
Carter
7:30
no no zane you're adding zane and you're adding a whole thing they
Carter
7:36
they only hear what they want to hear right this is why cory and i are so measured on this podcast cory and i spent so much time thinking about what we're going to say because if we say the wrong thing just a couple words it will be taken out of context and oh we'll hear about it we'll hear about it mostly we'll hear about it from our wives but we will still hear about it and uh it's happened to us i
Carter
7:58
i don't think ever hey cory like you and i pretty much know
Carter
8:02
we've never had a problem um
Zain
8:04
um my wife thinks i've
Zain
8:06
pulled the muslim cause back years uh so there you go oh
Corey
8:09
oh good congratulations it's
Zain
8:11
it's like just about like pre-9-11 day so it's gonna get really good really quickly for us at this point you
Corey
8:16
you know there's a there is a broader lesson here about uh seeing the forest for the trees and and kind of taking arguments to their logical conclusions right and so you
Corey
8:26
you can make an argument like that and uh but when you follow it all the way through that
Corey
8:33
is a good point right there are there are other views that uh perhaps uh you'd be less enthusiastic about you know any kind of group kind of saying well this is our view so we're gonna of course we're gonna plow through and of course like
Zain
8:44
like i mean i would be i would be foolish not to mention the fact that like specifically in in countries like the united states where you know governing through scripture is now a thing in certain states in certain parties it is now an ideology yeah i would never that's not what i'm suggesting but i think there's a broader discussion i'm curious if you guys are willing to have it this wasn't part of the game plan but fuck it what do you because we did discuss a bit of this topic on on um friday cory when we talked on the patreon episode about this you said this particular thing was an overreach by this i don't even want to talk about the particulars I guess, what
Zain
9:20
what do you think about communities feeling like they're forced to use the stick rather than the carrot? And I find that so fascinating. This was, like, one thing is clear, I think, across the board, regardless of your politics in the broader Muslim community, and I know there's varying, like, politics all the way from hyper-progressive, like today, I was part of a WhatsApp email blast, and an email blast simultaneously being like, we are moving to the federal NDP, that is where this community needs to move. move. That's the only community supporting us. That's the only community that's on the right side of what we care about. All the way to, you know, we stand with Daniel Smith, Al-Rashid Mosque sort of statement, which has been circulating around WhatsApp sort of thing, which is the medium that's most popular amongst certain groups. But Corey, like, what do you think of communities feeling frustration have to draw this red line? I find that fascinating, because we've all for the longest time talked about widest tent, coalition building, reasonable reasonable compromise. That's how you, you know, use power effectively. But I'm curious what you think of this, because when you follow this up to its rational conclusion, as you've just said, we could end up in a very weird spot where this lesson, if applied broadly, ends up to perhaps hurt democracy in some way, although I could maybe even argue the opposite, which is like, democracy should be difficult and uncomfortable and not necessarily served on a silver platter for politicians, although I'm not making that argument. I'm curious to hear your thoughts, square i
Corey
10:47
you've thrown like eight different views out there i
Carter
10:50
i and i think that
Corey
10:50
that they're all legitimate i think actually what underlines it all is that these things are messy and they're different and power dynamics shift and negotiation dictates outcomes and single issues can consume and then single issues can abate and ultimately at the end of the day these groups are also not not monolithic, whether it be the Muslim community, Christian community, Calgarians, the good residents of Che, whatever it is, right? And some groups will have firmer boundaries around them than others. But there tends to be a little bit of, you know, fuzziness
Corey
11:26
fuzziness on the parameters of any group, people who are members of group, but don't necessarily buy into majority opinions of that group, people who have majority opinions on some matters, but not on all matters. And And I think that one of the realities
Corey
11:41
realities is that as,
Carter
11:42
as, and we've seen this over centuries in
Corey
11:45
in this country, in this continent more generally, which tends to have been a continent where we've seen waves of immigration from different places, is when
Corey
11:54
when groups are small and have relatively little power, they tend to stick together very strongly. Yes. Yes, there are
Corey
12:03
are also those realities you were talking about where they can often just be happy to be part of those corridors of power as sort of a step two. But step three is, well, I'm in those corridors of power, fuck all of you, and I'm going to have views. And step four is often, that's
Corey
12:21
that's not my view. You know, like, I'm in this group, but that's not my view. And there's just, you know, that those hard boundaries that dictate being a member of a group or not, start to fall away, the longer those groups are in a country in a community and start taking up membership in a lot of other communities, right, whether it be their geographic community, or, I don't know, they're all at the same library, or you name it. And so it shifts over time. And it's, it's fascinating. And it's very interesting. And it's not a one way one unidirectional kind of thing. But it's moving, I guess, as the point yeah there are a lot of ways you can think about this you
Zain
12:55
you know it's cory carter phrases the much more articulate version of the argument i was trying to have with my wife at 1 a.m when i got these series of text messages and i and i lost um just so you know of course but you know part of me was there was no doubt part of me i'm gonna kind of phrase it a different way which was like part
Zain
13:09
part of me would kind of relish maybe
Zain
13:12
maybe that's not even the right word but i'll throw it out there the
Zain
13:16
that a certain group like let's just use this current example a muslim group would put out this statement, let's say it'd be on trans rights, right? Because I agree with them on the materiality of this letter that they put out on Gaza. Okay, let's just park that one aside. Let's say one group comes out on trans rights, and then another mosque doesn't. And then one person or a couple people within the group that they felt like was speaking for them on trans rights says, no, I disagree with what they just said, by the way. And people in the other group in the response, you know what, fuck you, I disagree with my group just said.
Zain
13:47
And my argument ultimately was was that in politics groups like the muslim community and others have been treated as voting blocks and the fact that if we could like atomize ourselves we have more power that way than less in some weird way am i wrong you're
Carter
14:04
you're totally wrong i mean fuck am i wrong this is this is so painful to listen to it makes me want to hurt myself why is that wrong why why is it wrong Because a voting bloc, first of all— No, no, no.
Zain
14:14
no. Can I explain? No.
Zain
14:17
Groups that can't be easily persuaded by one single thing and being like, we got them in the bank, which is
Carter
14:22
is how we treat every
Zain
14:25
single group right now, versus
Zain
14:27
loosely aligned around the broader Muslim cause, but atomized as individuals with their own decision-making capacity. To me, I think that is even more powerful.
Carter
14:36
when the rainbows come out of your asshole. I mean, does it taste crazy?
Carter
14:42
it's bullshit. Now you're
Carter
14:43
you're being Islamophobic. Now
Zain
14:44
Now you're being like, Carter, Carter.
Carter
14:47
was not homophobic. That was very pro-homophobic. No,
Zain
14:50
No, I said Islamophobic, but that's fine.
Carter
14:51
fine. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. Jesus Christ, Carter. We create tactics, right? Yes. And we build those tactics to fit into our strategies. And those tactics work fabulous. Corey and I had this conversation, 2013, 2012. we were down in dc we talked about the tactics that had been used in 2008 2006 2010 to elect a swath of liberals right for lack of a better phrase the left right yeah
Carter
15:20
all of those tactics all of those tools were then grabbed by the right right forget about these monolithic ideas of the of muslim culture or uh we we could go back to italian we could go to catholic we could go to any community protestant uh john duffy literally wrote the book on this one it's called fights of our lives it talks about how different voter groups have been used through history and they're all the same zane they're all the same because at the end of the day people don't give a fuck enough to learn about how to vote right i don't give a shit what your what your nationality what your religion what your ethnicity is everybody everybody's in the same boat so we use tactics to trick them and sometimes we use in-group out-group tactics and sometimes we use uh you know you know religious leadership tactics and sometimes we use social media tactics but they're all just fucking tactics to get people to do what we want them to do and you sir made the cardinal error of using a a single tactic as though it can only be used in one way and it can be used in two at least and it got used for you and it got used and it's It's going to be used in Guinea. And that, my friend, that's the cardinal error. No, I'm not. I'm back to that because that's where we started. And that's where we're fucking going to end. Ba-boom. And I'm out.
Zain
16:37
Carter's off to bed. Carter's just going to, are you going to end on that note?
Zain
16:42
Hey, Corey, is there, and I'm actually happy to take it if you guys disagree. Like, I actually think this is an interesting conversation for me, at least. Am I, is
Zain
16:50
is there any merit in what I'm trying to say around a group's power being like, Like, you can't just court it with one move, one whatever, being like, these are all individuals that then belong to a broader, broadly defined group. You're grinning. Yeah. And I don't know if that means I agree with Zane or this guy's a fucking idiot and we need to get a new host to this podcast.
Corey
17:07
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Listen, I understand what you're saying about how all of a sudden you have many different sources of power and conversation, but I ultimately do kind of believe that the
Corey
17:19
the union makes us strong, right? Solidarity. like working as
Corey
17:23
a block is more likely more
Corey
17:25
more likely to get what you want uh than not now the challenge is always keeping a group together right as we've seen a hundred different times i want to say i
Corey
17:34
can tell you are in some mental distress about this if only because i've seen you take five different positions as you argue with yourself over the past 10 oh
Zain
17:40
oh yeah yeah it's been a fascinating
Zain
17:42
conversation this is why i thought i'd just bring it up here you
Corey
17:45
will not change the course of history on this one they were going to get there anyways they just have have the benefit now of having somebody who's seen as a progressive having said it and they can throw it in your fucking face and that sucks for you but
Corey
17:58
but it doesn't fundamentally change the course of things here they were going to get there they were going to get there for sure i
Zain
18:03
i suspect they would have carter any final words or was your final word uh just uh just
Carter
18:09
the fuck down i mean jesus gone
Carter
18:12
gone through this a thousand times welcome oh no i'm
Zain
18:15
i'm sorry this is not about me This is about educating the listeners, okay, Carter? And I feel like we've done just that. This is about Zayn Velji for leaders. This is about my campaign in Christ. You know what? I'm pulling my
Carter
18:25
my support from the Zayn Velji for leaders.
Zain
18:28
leaders. Are you pulling your endorsement? You can't pull your endorsement. You
Carter
18:30
You are the only person to endorse.
Carter
18:31
No, it's history now. I'm
Carter
18:33
I'm moving to another Muslim.
Carter
18:36
That's all I'm going to say.
Zain
18:38
Well, we've got to convert everyone. That's the whole point, Carter. That's the whole point. That's
Carter
18:41
That's what I heard. That's what I heard. That's why I didn't like the Catholics either or
Carter
18:45
or the Christians. We're going to
Corey
18:49
Oh, my God. How are you the guy being clipped and not Stephen when he says things like
Carter
18:53
like that? Oh, it's fine. I don't know. It's amazing. It's like it's costed in, right? Like, oh, he's going to say something stupid. It's costed
Zain
18:59
costed in. I've got a new coalition, conservative Muslims. You guys are my people now. Let's
Zain
19:04
Let's move it on
Corey
19:04
on to our next segment.
Zain
19:04
segment. Our next segment, Pharmacare for All. Corey, it has happened. We have a deal. Oh, God. We have a deal. Jagmeet Singh is out there with his communications, and you know what he's saying, Corey? He is saying that indeed, because of him, they,
Zain
19:21
they, as in the federal NDP, have inked the deal with the liberals on pharma care. That's right. After tense negotiations with the big pharma-backed liberals, that's Jagmeet Singh's words, Corey, we've secured the first step towards the NDP national pharma plan by covering birth control and diabetes medication. This means you will get the medicine you need. need. Stephen Carter, Alberta has just signaled a couple hours ago, if I'm not mistaken, that they're not going to be participating in this plan. Give to me the political win that this is for the federal NDP. This has been across the headlines for the last number of weeks, the ongoing sort of grinded out negotiations. Diabetes medication is in, it's out, it's in, it's out, and it's in, turns out. But of course, Carter, this is that first step towards securing that deal this is the step that the ndp said they needed to keep supporting the liberals from a pure political supply and confidence level how
Zain
20:20
how big is this for the ndp what do
Carter
20:22
do you think the liberals opening position was right
Carter
20:25
right like what do you think it was liberals are going to open with we will fund um placebos and the ndp were like no no no no can't have placebos that would be ridiculous and the liberals say okay well what
Carter
20:38
what if we throw in contraception right and and the the end of you're like no no no we want pharma care national pharma care i tell you pharma
Carter
20:47
pharma care that's what we want and then the liberals are like oh
Carter
20:51
i hear what you're saying i think we'll throw in now we'll
Carter
20:55
we'll throw in diabetic medicine whoa says jagmeet singh you
Carter
21:00
you managed to hit the jackpot that is exactly what i wanted i wanted to cover off diabetes and uh and and birth control I mean, don't get me wrong. I think it's great. I think it's great. I got, you know, kids that are birth control. Very exciting. I don't need it anymore because I'm old. I
Carter
21:18
I explained that part
Zain
21:19
part a little bit. You
Zain
21:19
kids birth control. Very exciting. I'm not going to pick on that. Yeah, okay. Excellent. Yeah,
Carter
21:24
Yeah, believe me, you don't want grandkids. I'm just throwing that out there. So this is a big thing. This is very exciting. Very exciting. But for the general population, is this pharmacare? Corey, let me ask you a question.
Carter
21:38
You've got 100, 150 children. You've
Carter
21:42
You've had to buy what? Antibiotics? There's been drugs
Carter
21:47
drugs through the house. How
Carter
21:48
many diabetes drugs? And I'm guessing, I'm just guessing, your
Carter
21:52
your kids aren't on birth control as yet.
Corey
21:55
yeah all true steven so yeah i i think you kind of hit the nail on the head your point about what was the liberals negotiating position like it's what the liberals signed an agreement saying we'd bring in national pharma care and now they have a great deal with the ndp that brings in probably the two least objectionable components of national pharma care right
Corey
22:15
right well it's the first step
Carter
22:17
this is going to drive me into antidepressants well cory
Zain
22:22
cory finish your thought And then I've got a follow-up question here, which is, frankly, does it even matter?
Corey
22:28
I guess you could make an argument that there's incrementalism now possible, because you're going to create a model, and then you can register and list on whatever ends up being called more and more drugs as time goes on. But yeah, this is really interesting. And I can kind of imagine the comms conversation having led all of this, right? Birth control for women, very popular. In fact, isn't this a thing in British Columbia already? Yeah,
Corey
22:57
nobody thinks it is in any way appropriate that diabetes medicine costs as much as it does. So, again, from a comms perspective, like, the two absolute least objectionable components are now in the front window here.
Zain
23:13
Which almost implies that the rest of it is going to be harder to do. Is that not right, Carter? Like, and I guess the question here to me is, does any of the materiality here matter? Does any of the substance here even matter, right? Like, or is it just the presence of the fact that there is substance and we can call it pharma care? You know what I mean? Like, have we gotten into such, you know, simple headline-based politics that does the substance of what the framework first step even matter? Or the fact that the NDP can go back and say, we did it. We've gotten pharma care on track. we are going to get this done. And is that just a political win anymore? Like, help me delineate where we are in this world of politics, where substance needs to ground certain things, but doesn't need to ground other things. What do you think of this in terms of that, if you look that as a spectrum?
Carter
24:02
Listen, I'm already against the dental deal. Why am I against the dental deal? Because it doesn't benefit average Canadians. If you want to do something that's going to have have electoral impact. You can't just play around the edges. You got to find the average Canadian and you've got to say, how can I impact you? And then you have to impact them, right?
Carter
24:22
right? You are not impacting them with these two medicines. I interviewed a doctor, Dr. Danielle Martin for a thing at the University of Calgary one time before Corey was there. So, you know, he's put me on the blacklist since, but when I was, you know, I was given the opportunity to interview her as, and mediate this panel and she talked about a national pharma care program that would cost a few you know 10 billion dollars or something like that her book is called better now if anybody wants to read it it's uh i
Carter
24:51
i i mean i was intrigued with it because she said it's a very small number of drugs that you need to actually cover if you're going to implement a national pharma care program i argued with her i thought that you needed to cover off the exotics right because this is is getting nowhere near that kid you know there's a kid somewhere that's going to need a drug and that drug is going to be three thousand dollars per pill and they're going to need a pill every day for 30 days times the rest of their lives right this
Carter
25:20
this isn't going to even come close to touching that right
Carter
25:22
right so if you've got that extreme case that we can't cover and i was saying you need to cover that because that's the thing that pops up every month every year right like Like all the time, there's some kid that can't get the medicine, can't afford the medicines, isn't insured for the medicines. And now we're going to have all of this. I mean, this is so narrow as to be useless in the same fashion that the dental program is so narrow as to be useless. So the
Carter
25:51
you may as well not even try, but they're keeping their coalition and their coalition continues to accomplish What I said it would accomplish when it was announced, you know, two years ago, I said, this isn't going to accomplish fuck all. This is the NDP being stupid. And here we are, the NDP continues to be stupid.
Carter
26:11
Headline. Do they continue?
Zain
26:14
Two questions. Do the NDP continue to be stupid, quote unquote, Stephen Carter's statement? And does the materiality of what this framework include even matter? Or is this just a purely a branding exercise that the NDP can can get the maximum value that they need to from?
Corey
26:33
well let's say it's a branding exercise for the liberals and the new democrats trying to wrong foot the conservatives i could see that in some ways it's like the laziest fucking wedge like let's offer to cover birth control and watch a certain subset of the population's hair explode let's then highlight that certain subset of the population and let's just all hold hands and walk merrily into 2025 where we win the next election okay maybe that's a theory of the campaign don't know how that's going to work for your team but okay right there is a less cynical view which is that this is seen as the art of the possible right now right we can't afford full listen i see carter shaking his head this
Corey
27:11
this is not my view i'm gonna throw the view out there there
Corey
27:14
there is a view that says hey we just start with these things they're pretty popular they won't cost us too much it will create this groundswell of support it will allow us to index more things over time and then all of of a sudden we have that national pharma care program we both love hey look at us go way to go everybody and yeah we did a little bit of kabuki theater to give that like oh you drive a hard bargain right to get there okay that's maybe what they're trying to do too but i do tend to agree with stephen carter that this is so narrow as to be useless and perhaps even counterproductive you know my own personal view of government is that government um should
Corey
27:50
should do do really well on things, but like limited in scope, but near unlimited generosity within that scope. I just wish government would try fewer things and land the things it does. That's my own personal view of government, right? And
Corey
28:02
And part of that is rooted in the idea that government half-assing a million fucking things is not the recipe for government doing better things or more things. Like you're not creating support for government by having 20 failed programs to every one program, right? Or 20 programs you can immediately poke holes into every one program. And I do think that this liberal government's been a consequential government. They've brought on a lot of programs.
Corey
28:27
I'd like them to stick some landings, okay?
Corey
28:30
That's what I would like. Like,
Zain
28:32
Carter, is this is this beyond a risk of not sticking a landing? Explain to me and the listeners how this could be counterproductive, like how this could just like, is it counterproductive just simply because the landing doesn't stick and it's another landing that doesn't stick? Or
Zain
28:49
Or is it something else in your mind in terms of how this could actually backfire politically and strategically for the liberals here? there?
Carter
28:57
Well, I mean, I think that one of the big challenges we have right now is that people are saying other
Carter
29:03
other people are getting more rights than I'm getting. Right. Other people's rights are more important than my rights. And I'm not I'm not saying that, but that seems to be one of the big the big concerns. Right. You know, trans rights. Oh, my goodness. This person is getting some sort of special right that I don't have. And now I'm going to get all upset about it because they get get a special washroom um you know this is a uh this
Carter
29:28
this is a common problem where people think that they've that there are rights that they're not participating in and because of that it's not fair and fairness is one of those you
Carter
29:40
you know values that people have that are super powerful so if something's not deemed to be fair then it can have a really negative backlash and this piece piece of of kabuki theater to quote the uh the the the late great oh
Carter
29:55
oh never mind not late the the great uh cory hogan what
Carter
30:00
he passed away yeah he passed away it was awkward let's take a quick moment of silence
Zain
30:03
silence carter just one second
Zain
30:07
and that was uh cory hogan former contributor to the podcast keep going you know
Carter
30:10
know that's going to get cut out by the automatic software anyways the uh the point of the exercise
Carter
30:19
we're not going to do that, Zane. I'm done already. I'm moving past it. Okay, that's good. I was once
Carter
30:23
again for the late grave. I think that this has the chance of generating a significant backlash
Carter
30:31
there's a group of people getting something for free that I have to pay for. And
Carter
30:34
And that is the worst type of political endeavor. endeavor.
Zain
30:42
you were tasked with selling something so narrow, how would you have sold it?
Zain
30:47
How would you have advised selling something like this to either the governing liberals or the NDP, right? If you were in that room with the negotiating team being like, okay, guys, here's some principles on how we sell this thing, because we know what it is. Canadians know what they were expecting. You know, art of the possible, not very sexy, not very ambitious, not with the resources we can muster here here's here's some principles on how we're trying to sell this thing guys and what would they what would they include at least a couple of those principles
Corey
31:15
sure well let's be clear these are good things in my opinion at least i think it's good that these things are not going to be costs that that uh you know groups have to burden because that that burden is unfair in many ways and lands unfairly and
Corey
31:31
and i do think that because of that the communications is not super complex right you get to say hey isn't it isn't it good that we've birth control disproportionately is a cost that lands on women let's get rid of this pink tax that just makes sense right you know it's not even something that the whole population has to contend with and isn't this a good place where the government can kind of step in and make things kind of right like rebalance what is otherwise a pretty fundamentally unfair situation similarly when you talk about diabetes medicine and you can talk about the crazy cost of insulin these days and you know some of the spikes that we've seen over the past 10 years in that space there's kind of a moral imperative argument and certainly there are enough diabetics in the world that that's something where a lot of people will know somebody who's directly affected without
Corey
32:18
you know getting into the very exotic drugs that stephen carter's talking about which are prohibitively expensive i would even use that word for
Corey
32:25
for you know for a government that doesn't necessarily have super deep coffers at this moment and so yeah i actually your question is interesting to me because i get the sense that in many ways this was built like in either of those scenarios i talked about either the laziest wedge or the thin edge of the wedge in order to open the door to bigger pharmacary they both have a communications first approach right they say what are the two pieces of this that we can best communicate and either we go from there or we We don't, depending on whether this is a one-off or it's something bigger, but it's all rooted in communications. I think that there is a reason why they did this in this fashion, and that's because, especially the people who vote Liberal and New Democrat, these will be very popular measures, and they are generally perceived by the population as a good thing. Carter,
Zain
33:14
what would be your framework of trying to sell? Like, Corey's framework, right? Like, you're not getting too caught up in the fact that, you
Zain
33:23
you know, at the end of the day, this is good shit, right? Like, we are delivering shit you people want. And yes, the scope might be narrowed, the population base might be narrowed, but we're leading with that. Carter, would you have any particular principles, if you were in that room, helping the government or the NDP communicate on this win?
Carter
33:41
This is phase one.
Carter
33:43
Phase one is diabetic and contraception. Phase two is going to be antidepressants and blood pressure medications. Phase three is going to be, I
Carter
34:01
don't know, what else? That's good. There's not really big categories after that, I guess. Oh, Ozempic, we'll put that in phase three. um ozempic uh for all of your weight loss needs um you know whatever whatever the big the big six things that you can get uh cheap um cheap
Carter
34:23
cheap drugs for right i think that has to be part of it um and then you put it in and you say this is phase one two and three and you go two by two by two just like some sort of noah's
Carter
34:33
noah's ark of drugs and you just put
Carter
34:36
put a date on it right
Carter
34:38
we're going to to do the the first one in 2024 second one in 2026 conveniently right after the next election and the next one in 2028 we're
Carter
34:47
we're going to have a full pharma care program in 2028 and let's be clear when we say pharma care we don't mean every possible drug ever considered we
Carter
34:57
we mean the drugs that canadians use the most that's what you're going to be able to walk up show your heart health care card and get that particular drug and this is phase one two and three it's going to all all occur before 2030.
Zain
35:11
And Corey, Noah, of course, are recognized Muslim prophets, so Carter really tying these two segments together very
Zain
35:16
Yeah, peace be upon
Carter
35:17
upon him. I like
Zain
35:17
like that. Peace be upon him. Thank you so much. Episode title, Noah's Ark of Drugs. Peace be upon him. Corey, what do you, I'm hung up on something.
Zain
35:30
After tense negotiations with the big pharma-backed liberals,
Zain
35:36
Why? Why? Why? Maybe I just don't get it. But to me, it's just like, dude, what? I don't understand where that comes from, why it's there. Do you see the strategy behind this? This seems to be a partnership. If you go in with, and Carter, I really loved your framework, right? If you go in with Carter's framework, there's fucking several more phases to happen here. So like, you know, I don't understand that, if I'm being honest with you. Maybe there's an audience that it appeals to that I don't appreciate, or there's some undercurrent of conversation that's happening that I'm not clued into. But I wanted to throw that particular word. I know we don't usually dissect word choice, but this one stuck out. Big pharma-backed liberals, really? Your friends and allies that are going to execute on the thing you've... What do you think? Maybe I'm off base here.
Corey
36:27
think I know what they were trying to do. I don't think it was a super smart idea, but it was essentially to try to grab some of that populist language and and say like hey you can't trust the liberals to deliver these programs because they're too bay street they're too in the pocket of uh you know all of the various industries that we need to regulate and kind of push out of conversations like pharma care and uh but and that's why you vote for ndp and that's why you send ndp mps to ottawa and we get results that's what i think he was going for i think the reality of such commentary is anybody who is critical about a narrow scope will be like well sounds like the big pharma back liberals fucking rolled you you dummy and uh you've just given a great opportunity to turn a win into a loss and that is the fundamental problem they've got to be united in presenting this as a win at least until we have the details before they start undercutting it by suggesting that one you know that their counterparty here that their partner here partner Keep in mind, they've got a supply and confidence agreement with them. Until this gets introduced, like, why are they doing this? Like, that to me was the insanity that only comes from being too deep in partisan politics. You
Zain
37:38
You know, Carter, any
Zain
37:40
any thoughts on that? Welcome. But to me, I'm almost kind of wondering, and this is more so broad strokes advice for the NDP federally, which is when they co-create a program and want to take credit for it, do they have to undercut the folks that they created it with? like the fucking second the ink is dry or is there a way that looking like the authors of this program they can take a different approach and it goes back to the old business thing right two ways to build the tallest building you either build the tallest building or you cut someone else's building down in size sort of thing right and in in the ndp's case do they have to like every single time being like hey we got these fuckers to do something but let's not be clear we did it and they're still fuckers okay i think you can do
Carter
38:25
but like is there a different Is there a different approach here?
Carter
38:29
Yeah, don't call them names. Even
Zain
38:31
Even outside of the names. Can they just be the bigger person here, or am I just being too naive in saying that that lane is available to the NDP?
Carter
38:40
Well, I mean, you
Carter
38:41
you could even damn with faint praise. There's a million different ways that you could do this and build your political brand, which is ultimately what the NDP are trying to do. They're trying to build themselves up by tearing the other guy down. and
Carter
38:56
just do it so badly
Carter
38:58
badly like it is you
Carter
39:00
know the only group worse than the federal liberals right now at communication are
Carter
39:05
are the federal ndp and and that's i mean that's a staggering level to get to and here we are here we are they have articulated no particular role for themselves and the only way that they seem to be able to define themselves is by name you
Carter
39:19
you know calling names to the to the people that they're supposed to be partnering with and in fact just did a deal with to keep in government so again you're just not proving how powerful you are you're just proving how weak you are cory
Zain
39:33
cory any thoughts here around like more broad advice for the ndp around how they kind of take credit well and effectively yeah
Corey
39:45
you can take credit it to
Corey
39:47
to steven's point without here's
Corey
39:50
here's the thing i i am actually sitting here kind of almost a little torn in my own thoughts on this part of me thinks you
Corey
39:56
you gotta let them love it and then tell them you did it instead of before any of us you mean people like people
Zain
40:02
people getting program the program delivering
Corey
40:04
delivering yeah right well i don't even mean necessarily the program delivering okay i mean people hearing about them like this is not even out yet like we have this announcement but we don't know some of the fine stroke details how this is going to work we don't know the province's reactions i mean you just mentioned alberta's reaction seems negative quebec's reaction seems negative you know not these are bad things in the case of quebec or really alberta but more this is we want to go our own way right so
Corey
40:31
so i don't know like for you to go and be like ah this is we did it right and we've had to fight the big bad liberals to do it before any dust is settled like Like, it seems to be predicated on this assumption that everybody's going to love this and that they need to get as much credit as possible for it. And I think that that's my problem with it. I think there is still a common sales job that the liberals and NDP need to do before they start, you know, carving up the pie as to who gets what credit. That's my view on this.
Zain
41:02
Carter, final thoughts on here. Anything you got?
Carter
41:05
Well, I just, I mean, I think that they would have been far better off just to turn this into, and we wanted so much more. But you can only get, we wanted so much more when you deliver this one. So I agree with Corey, deliver
Carter
41:21
deliver this one, then say we should have gotten more. And don't fucking name call, there's just no point in it.
Zain
41:28
Let's move on to our next segment, our next segment, Pierce Positions. Carter, Pierre Polyev, he stepped into the debate. He's actively stepped into the debate, deliberately, on trans rights. He did it this past week, saying biological males should be banned from women's sports, change rooms, and bathrooms. This, of course, on the heels of him kind of arguably flubbing a question earlier on puberty blockers, in some ways kind of, you know, on the facts, not necessarily knowing what they were, conflating them with different types of hormones. Quote, female spaces should be exclusively for females, not biological males. He said in his typical Pierre Polyev voice, definitive, kind of looking at them being like, you know, what else would it be? He made the comments after being asked if as prime minister, he would introduce legislation to prevent transgender women or biological men from participating in female sports. supports carter he stepped into the debate this is this is not the pure polyam from two and a half weeks ago where everyone was silent and we're going to just you know try to get through this no we're now leaning into this is this a strategically sound or right move by pure polyam in your mind well
Carter
42:40
well i think it's a morally horrible move um so let's just start with the morals of it uh government's supposed to be there to protect uh minorities and to stand uh against the mob. But when you look at the polling, and the polling is strong, the polling is telling us a story that picking on the weak kid probably
Carter
43:03
probably isn't a bad strategy. So, you know, am I super stoked about this policy or positioning? Absolutely not. But as long as we've got groups, and I'm not going to name any of the groups, but as long as we've got groups that are prepared to say my religious religious beliefs involve trashing these kids, I'm afraid
Carter
43:28
we're going to have politicians saying, you know, that's a great way to go get those group votes, to
Carter
43:33
to bring us back to the initial point of our
Zain
43:35
our discussion. The initial conceit of the first segment, you're right.
Zain
43:39
Corey, same question for you.
Zain
43:41
You know, they took this bit of a break, they huddled, you almost thought there was almost going to be like, we're going to try to like not, we're going to ride this out, we're not I'm not going to speak on this particular issue. This is a provincial issue. And then here we are.
Zain
43:53
He's into it. He takes debate, maybe wanted to take debate, doesn't reject the premise, leans into it.
Zain
44:00
What do you think of that strategy? Yeah.
Corey
44:03
Well, like Carter, I kind of think it sucks that government would take that approach. I think that this is such an exception-based space to begin with, that to create blanket rules is absurd. And I
Corey
44:16
I just don't understand why all of a sudden conservatives are the organization of big government in this context, right? Like, this is just a little much for me here. and also to take these positions the same week we're all you know digesting and reading the news about next benedict and you know the horrible death down there related to bathrooms here just like man part of me thinks read the room but darkly i think he is reading it he has like i think i was gonna ask you exactly that has
Zain
44:44
has he read the room and this is exactly like in line
Corey
44:49
think the polling is pretty clear at this point right and it doesn't speak great to him that he waited to figure out where the polling was. He doesn't have a moral compass on this issue so much as he's got a pollster's answers to this question. And he's decided this is the position that the conservatives are going to take and that it's not going to have spillover effect and cause him damage or be seen as retrograde on a dozen other issues. Corey,
Zain
45:12
Corey, can I stick with you on this? I want to kind of throw back a Corey Hoganism back at you on the polling.
Zain
45:19
Do you think parental rights is a novel concept? And that while it is a winning frame for conservatives province to province, New Brunswick, Saskatchewan, Alberta, now taken on by the federal leader, that fundamentally, when you scratch beyond the surface, it is a novel concept and maybe not as sticky or robust as conservatives are banking it to be as they take these more strident positions against against the trans community yeah
Corey
45:45
yeah i i think it might be jared wesley at the university of alberta put some polling in front of my face that i thought was super interesting about how changing the question can change the consideration on this and so it does reinforce my view that we are still wrestling over the question and i have no doubt that if it's framed in certain ways people say yeah biological males get out and i have no doubt that frame different ways people will have more nuanced views on this and have a little bit more care and concern as to what the actions of government in this space would mean but when
Corey
46:19
when you just kind of look at the preponderance of evidence that comes from polling right now it does seem to be that the bulk of public opinion in this country is
Corey
46:30
kind of against trans rights and that's sad to say but that's the reality however
Corey
46:35
the bulk of public opinion at different times has been against all sorts of things.
Corey
46:38
Doesn't mean that the public feels great about it down the road. And I think on an issue like this, which is still so new, I just think that the odds of it shifting, I
Corey
46:46
I think it can shift in years, not decades. And it was decades where some of these other social issues had to shift, such as gay marriage, such as interracial marriage, matters of the sort. And so I definitely don't think that we've got to sort of accept like, like okay here we are this is just how canadians view this issue now i don't i don't think that that's the reality but i do think we need to be realistic about where public opinion is and
Corey
47:13
nebulous you can put some interesting arguments in front of people where they say well that might change how i view this particular matter but on net canadians
Corey
47:21
canadians are sort of in the space that pierre uh decided he was going to try to claim carter
Zain
47:27
carter are you would you be as a conservative strategist Let's say you're a conservative strategist who was just trying to pick up the political wins as they were presented to you, right,
Zain
47:36
right, along the way, so that you could fundamentally get your leader to a position that in 2025, they enjoy the comfortable 17-point lead that Pierre Polyev enjoys right now. That's a quote from the most recent poll. Okay.
Zain
47:49
Would you be worried on this issue?
Zain
47:51
Would I be worried about it? From a novel concept perspective that, you know, this could crumble. The frame could change. change, progressives, like the prime minister's now going after this issue as well, like on the other side of it, unsurprisingly. So there is an effort being made to shift the frame back here, that a battle of frames is continuing, that, you know, on this question, the question isn't even set. It isn't like hard-coded. Would you kind of think to yourself, man, you know, there is a bit of a risk here. We could be doing something that is not as durable as we think it is, and in 16 months time could be kicking ourselves for wading into something we didn't fucking need to as conservatives would would there be a part of you thinking that or are you are you comfortable not i'm not saying personally comfortable but are you strategically comfortable that that you've seen enough polling to you know let the conservative movement go down the track that it is
Carter
48:43
generally i believe that people stand on the side of protecting the weak and protecting those that that are, you
Carter
48:53
at risk. So from that, if we start with that as the premise, generally speaking, that is the side that we are on, then the conservatives are on the wrong side of it. But there seems to be something that's happening right now. And that something that's happening has been happening
Carter
49:09
happening for quite some time. The conservative movement, such as it is, is no longer a progressive conservative movement. If it's going to continue
Carter
49:17
continue to hold its position, it has to continues to be a
Carter
49:21
a more and more socially conservative agenda following in the footsteps of the Americans, really. But, you know, all across the conservative world, we're seeing a shift towards, you know, social issues, race related issues. issues my
Carter
49:41
fear is that in this particular case targeting trans youth is is the thin edge of the wedge who else are we targeting and one of the groups you know one of one of the groups that i would consider should
Carter
49:54
should probably take you know open their eyes quite a bit is you start with trans youth you wind up with immigrants in a very quick very quick order in
Carter
50:02
very quick order but um
Carter
50:05
you You know, it's a short—where
Carter
50:08
short—where we are right now isn't going to change. And Pierre Polyev is probably going to be able to ride this for the 18 months that gets him to the election,
Carter
50:17
election, because these things are measured in years, often decades, very rarely months.
Zain
50:23
It's a fascinating point, Carter, including your last one on immigrants, right? To tie this back to the first segment, people know where I stand on the trans rights question, but one of the arguments I was giving, because the conversation certainly devolved to trans rights in the Muslim community broadly, which has been a headline-grabbing thing of its own right, and it's like, guys, what the fuck are we doing? Even if you don't have the conviction on this file, do you know who we are in the broader societal spectrum here? Let's not kid ourselves in some way. Corey, your thoughts on this. Same question. You're a conservative strategist. Would you have any pause in being like, man, we may be on something right now, but this may not be the frame that we face months from now?
Corey
51:06
Yeah, for sure I would, and I'll tell you why. And it has to do with when I've worked with various groups to build platforms, one of the things that I – if time and money allows, my belief is the best way to do this is to start by polling on individual issues. is what's the popularity like you know is this an 80 20 issues is 60 40 like let's see the general popularity of the various stances that we might take in a platform right then the next thing i would recommend is okay but those are individual issues and they might cut one way they might cut another way so let's put them in a bundle and let's put a story around them and then let's test that bundle in that story which you can really only do as a second poll after you've got the the first polling and then you take that bundle in the story and
Corey
51:49
you test it with voice okay if this is the alberta ndp saying it how do people feel if this is the alberta ucp saying it how
Corey
51:57
how does people feel and this goes back to some fundamental stuff that we all used to do together at
Corey
52:01
at hill and norton right you'll recall the framework of message image voice right where we would randomize all of these and we would see how different components affected people's receptivity to messages here right you
Corey
52:13
can win the battle and you can lose the war you can pick an issue that is by the numbers popular and
Corey
52:19
and you can lose because you have taken that position
Corey
52:23
we saw this i would argue in alberta last year increasing
Corey
52:26
increasing corporate taxes huge
Corey
52:29
popular individually popular if conservatives had proposed it it would probably have been a massive home run for them because it's individually popular but when people have have concerns about economic management by one party, and that same party proposes something where the critique back is, maybe this will hurt the economy, that same 70-30 issue becomes
Corey
52:48
becomes a problem for you, despite you technically being on the popular side of that issue. Because the voice, because your brand, because the bundle starts to fall apart. And if the bundle was including stability and confidence and assurance, that was a miss. And if the voice included the voice of somebody that people have economic anxieties about that's a miss and so you just have to be very careful about how individual issues can lead you astray they
Corey
53:13
they are not the be-all and the end-all
Corey
53:16
there's a forest that's a tree carter
Zain
53:20
any response to that and i've gotten it was beautiful just kind
Carter
53:23
kind of stuck on there's a forest that's a tree um that's really good cory i
Corey
53:29
it I'm not going to lie, my nipples
Corey
53:31
nipples cut hard. I want some music
Corey
53:36
I'd already used the battle and war metaphor at the start. That's
Zain
53:39
He thinks in paragraphs and he speaks in it now too, Carter. It's kind of annoying.
Zain
53:44
Hey, listen. I think
Carter
53:45
think it stands as myself. Stephen
Zain
53:48
is this good politics for the PM? Like in some ways he's fighting his progressive primary against Jagmeet Singh. um you know and you may know the the the uh the big pharma back liberals is is that's the pm um i'm saying what i'm talking about
Zain
54:02
yeah okay good yeah just so we're clear because we now all use that term yeah
Zain
54:05
should trudeau lean into this aggressively
Zain
54:09
aggressively he did last week like he did right like he responded to pierre he responded daniel smith he kind of seemed to have a fuck daniel smith moment last week and was like ah bucket i'm just gonna go after uh you know her and Pierre on this and other issues, but on this file, what do you think is both strategic, and then I'm going to introduce your word, and moral? Like, not fight the fight, fight the fight for political gain and win your progressive primary? Like, how would you think about it with both of those lenses on? Or
Zain
54:39
Or both of those hats on, I guess, to use a better term?
Carter
54:42
I'd fight the fight, and then I'd start talking about what we were prepared to do. too, because you're going to have to have you're
Carter
54:48
you're going to have to fight a bit of an of a dirty fight through this because there are very big populations that you need to win. You know, the liberals standing with the Muslim and Hindu communities couldn't be much lower than it is right now. And it used to be a strong point. So how are you going to earn it back? How are you going to win it back? What are you going to do to to
Carter
55:11
to do that? And sometimes it can be positives. You know, you're going to help with certain positive
Carter
55:18
positive things, and sometimes it can be negative, you know, and I think that floating
Carter
55:22
floating some negative ideas are probably a pretty decent idea.
Zain
55:27
would you lean into this if you're the PM?
Corey
55:31
Well, I hate giving the same answer every time this comes up, but it depends on the story they want to tell in the next election. and if the story they want to tell is a defender which is a traditional liberal position of minority rights why the hell not right that's very consistent with liberalism as we've seen it in this country from basically the quiet revolution in quebec on so why the hell not now if you're going to run an entirely different playbook maybe
Corey
55:59
maybe you still strongly believe in trans rights but maybe that's not the thing you want to be spending all of your time talking about so it really depends on the story that the prime minister is trying to put together assuming
Corey
56:10
assuming he's still the guy who's running oh my god like yeah i mean like his his numbers are abysmal and uh
Corey
56:16
uh he's gonna just have to sort of decide what it's gonna take to get them out of that ditch yeah can i just say as an aside because i distracted myself in this conversation numbers yeah
Corey
56:27
yeah david coletto posted uh you know kind of the approve disapprove of justin trudeau over time since the last election and it's it's like just about the smoothest neatest trend line ever of down
Corey
56:40
down like you know his approval rating has just declined so consistently it's not even precipitous so much as it's consistent and if this trend line continued to the next election it's he's going to be like 14 percent approval and if it doesn't and it follows the trend line of the last three months he's going to be at negative
Corey
56:57
negative 10 percent approval like the guy has really got to turn it around he's done done all of these moves and he continues to get less popular so cory
Zain
57:07
cory can i ask you like you you've opened this bracket so to speak now can we can i can we explore it a bit you
Zain
57:14
you know what carter i'm gonna explore let's live in that and i'm gonna i'm gonna let's just i'm gonna explore that bracket in our over under in our lightning round let's just start here steven carter and i'll start with one cory hogan even though it is a clear we do this for you yeah
Zain
57:25
um i'm required to say that by our sponsor uh which continues uh as of tomorrow will be the only low budget airline in the game Carter. Isn't that amazing? We've done it. I didn't believe it. The strategist bump has done it. Hey, Corey, would
Zain
57:39
would you rather have a candidate that would be on a precipitous decline or a steady decline that you'd want to work for on the rebound? Which would be your political preference? If you were handed the file right now being like, this guy's dropped like a stone, or he's had a drop over several months that's precipitous, which one and why would you want to work on? Carter, same question coming to you in a moment precipitous
Corey
58:01
precipitous because if something declines rapidly it can rebound rapidly when you have kind of a steady consistent decline there's probably something more fundamental going on carter
Zain
58:10
carter same same answer for you or is it slightly different for the steven carter approach um
Carter
58:15
um i mean i think that the the
Carter
58:18
the precipitous it really depends on what precipitated it like what what is the cause because if the cause was a
Carter
58:26
a complete and total it'll fuck up then it's
Carter
58:29
it's pretty hard to get out of that too that's
Zain
58:32
about the context here like if it was a scandal
Zain
58:34
that like takes you off the game okay okay i
Carter
58:36
i honestly think that most
Carter
58:38
most declines of a well-known politician are almost always irreversible so you
Carter
58:46
you know you can work for any of them because you can have you're
Carter
58:51
you're basically you're only you're only negative like You're either going to win or you're going to lose, and everybody expects you to lose. So Christy Clark's done it. Dalton McGinty has done it. Alison Redford did it. There's been a number of people who've come from these types of really
Carter
59:07
really negative situations, but it requires a very specific type of campaigning that I'm not sure that Justin's quite figured out yet.
Zain
59:16
Carter, I'm going to leave this next question, this final question with you to start us off off with. Are you in or are you out on the PM's sort of fuck you moment this past week? He was on Real Talk with Ryan Jesperson. He kind of went after the oil and gas industry for dragging its heels, for conservative politicians, for fooling Canadians. Both of those things made headlines in their own way. Are you in or out on this version of Justin Trudeau? And perhaps by extension, do you think we'll see more of it?
Carter
59:45
I'm in. I think that he's going to need to be the biggest fighter that he's ever been i mean i i
Carter
59:49
i i would probably put pictures of him boxing with uh brazo uh brazo yeah
Corey
59:55
yeah it was close yeah
Carter
59:57
um in in in all of the campaign offices that's the guy that's the guy that we're trying to put out this is a fight and we have to fight to win cory
Zain
1:00:06
cory uh ryan jesperson interviewing justin trudeau on one of those beautiful tables uh trudeau really taking a a fighting stance deep cut from the last patreon episode are you not that deep oh yeah for for a large portion of the audience yes it's it's behind a six dollar paywall are you in or are you out minimum six dollar paywall on on what you're seeing with with with the justin trudeau and by extension do you think you're going to see more of it i
Corey
1:00:31
think i'm out because i think it's just more of the same of what we've seen him try to do in the last few months which is yeah we're going going to be a little bit more chippy. We're going to be a little more pugilistic. I'm going to take the fight. I'm going to stand up for the things that I believe in. And I see no evidence at all, whatsoever, that it's working. I
Corey
1:00:48
I see none. And so I, you know, again, not to repeat myself, it really depends on what he's going to try to do and what he's going to try to run on. But regardless of what he tries to do and run on, he's not going to win if it's not a winning formula. And I don't think this is proving to be a winning formula for him. I think there's a group of people who feel fucking fantastic when the Prime Minister fights with the Prime Minister's enemies. I think there's a lot of other people who say, yeah, this smug prick, more of the same, and he's got to watch that. And yeah, listen, that's not my view of him, but I think you've got to be kidding yourself if you don't believe
Corey
1:01:22
believe that's many people's view of him. We
Zain
1:01:24
We are going to leave it there. I was going to have an entire segment where I do a Quranic recitation for you, but we don't have time. We just do not have time. We're going to leave it there.
Zain
1:01:31
in. We're going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 1288 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Belger with me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we'll see you next time.