Transcript
Zain
0:02
This is the Strategist episode 1276. My name is Zain Velji with me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Carter, what's going on?
Carter
0:07
Hey, thanks very much for having me, Zain. I'm really happy to be here today. I mean, I think we're really looking forward to having a fantastic night. So thanks very much for calling, you know, starting the show. Hey, Corey, how you doing, man?
Corey
0:16
I honestly, okay. Corey, you good? Yeah, I'm, yeah. Are you two doing a thing? Is this a bit that I wasn't invited to join in on or? Let's move on to our first segment. our first segment our
Carter
0:25
our first segment today brought to us by flair airlines we get you there faster um no that's not right yeah
Corey
0:31
yeah see you broke
Zain
0:34
airlines in your haste oh my god carter carter carter do we have to do this again i did tell you before we started recording that we're gonna go one and a half speed i wasn't serious about
Carter
0:43
about it you did one and a half and i had i picked up on your cue no
Zain
0:46
no i didn't i did my normal speed this is how i normally talk that's
Carter
0:49
that's not your normal speed man no
Zain
0:51
no that's it's definitely my normal speed hey cory we told dave Dave. And Dave is now told. Yeah. Now Dave has told the world. Yeah. Dave's told the world that Zane Velji is a star of this podcast. Yeah.
Corey
1:01
Yeah. What was that about? That was a weird caption on that particular picture of the strategist. So backing it all up a minute here. We won best political play of 2023. Of course, it was the best political play of 2023 that won best political play of 2023 is very meta.
Zain
1:18
we spend a moment on that? It's it to be clear, we as a podcast, we're not the the best political play of 2023 to be clear that was not it no
Zain
1:27
us winning best political play was best political play of 2023 so we were nothing and then we were everything right is that fair to say cory is this like a schrodinger's cat situation i guess so yeah the minute we yeah yeah yeah i think i like
Carter
1:43
like little dave can see the future little
Carter
1:45
little davey sees the future contributions
Zain
1:50
have been questionable thus far including the fact that you're wearing in christmas pajamas for no reason whatsoever no explainable reason whatsoever you
Carter
1:57
you guys kept me up so late last time i'm all ready for bed already so i'm just gonna go straight to bed i might go to bed during the actual podcast listen
Zain
2:05
listen i don't know we'll see who would know who would who could even tell uh who could who can tell can't uh cory should we should we do a real podcast should we jump into it yeah
Corey
2:15
yeah i've been wanting to talk all day about bo callahan dropping to seventh or eighth in the draft there what what was that about okay there is
Zain
2:21
is a lot to talk about in terms of that movie cory specifically um did you know it was chadwick before chadwick blew up that's the main question i have to ask you no
Corey
2:34
no yeah no i didn't you know you didn't either carter you guys kind of like retroactively you go back and you watch that movie and you're
Zain
2:40
you're like oh my god it's that's in chadwick that's that's literally literally chadwick carter did you have the same um um same reaction no
Carter
2:47
no because i i didn't watch the movie until after chadwick blew up actually until after chadwick died which makes the whole blew up thing sound really bad so you should take that back uh
Zain
2:59
cory bull callahan uh which current quarterback does he have the vibe of and why is it joe burrow no
Corey
3:06
no it's brock purdy it's
Corey
3:07
it's like he dropped the draft really really low it is it is Can I tell you why it is? Come on. The
Zain
3:13
The vibe is 100% Joe Burrow. Let's be clear.
Zain
3:15
It is Joe Burrow trying to be Jack Harlow. No, no, no, no, no. That is Bo Callahan.
Carter
3:19
Guys, you're both wrong. It's Ryan Leaf.
Zain
3:25
make a point here. Go ahead. Make your point.
Corey
3:26
Where was Purdy drafted? Right? Like, nowhere. And my theory of draft day is after draft day ended. Bo Callahan's a star quarterback.
Corey
3:35
He turns out to be great. Bo Callahan is a star quarterback. back and vonte
Zain
3:39
vonte mac is not a very good linebacker exactly
Corey
3:45
i'm glad we're on the same page here this is what happened this is you know they're all celebrating on draft day because on draft day he he puts together like zapruder film style a couple of things plus throwing in nobody came to this guy's birthday and he's like okay i'm just gonna ignore everything else about this guy that made him number one draft pick for everybody in the league and i'm gonna and then everybody in in the league does this too and he just drops and drops and drops and drops see I think he goes to the Seahawks in the end right yeah yeah
Corey
4:12
yeah yeah that's ridiculous noted
Carter
4:14
noted losers Seahawks that
Corey
4:16
that was that was a mania that was a madness that overtook the NFL on one day this guy was gonna be the number one draft pick he's
Corey
4:25
he's for sure having a better career right now than
Zain
4:28
than Vontae Mack well Well, Vontae probably died. Yes. If anything, it's parallel to.
Zain
4:35
But OK. Corey, why are you on the draft day high right now? We've spent about three minutes on draft day. Most people have no idea what the 2014 film draft day is. Do you want to explain why? Because I actually have a draft day story. It's actually it's I actually have a story about the film. It's
Corey
4:52
It's all over my TikTok right now. I'm in draft day talk right now. And I just, you know, I've been giving the clips to myself a little bit. it all day you
Carter
4:59
you should uh go to the heiress tour tiktok it's really good yeah
Zain
5:04
yeah you've been stuck there for a while carter uh i made an entire bachelor party watch draft day after it started to rain just a little bit in brooklyn i said let's just all go inside and watch draft day and the reaction was muted after two hours they're like why did you make us watch this movie in particular i was like i don't know i just felt like this was a movie you would enjoy and i was was wrong like
Corey
5:26
like isn't the main character divorced and sleeping with one of his employees isn't that sunny weaver jr let me talk about
Corey
5:31
about sunny weaver jr okay
Carter
5:32
okay nothing says happy marriage
Zain
5:35
like a bolstering christmas
Zain
5:38
christmas ornament you just pull him he says a random shit i
Zain
5:42
i see that carter way to mail it in already i'm
Carter
5:45
i'm really glad you brought that up okay we've
Zain
5:47
we've done six minutes of
Zain
5:49
terrible all right that's
Carter
5:50
that's a great point zane terrible
Zain
5:51
terrible banter can we can we move it on carter to our first segment our
Zain
5:54
our first segment why the fuck do we still do this guys hey
Carter
5:57
hey whatever you want to do you're the host zane i
Zain
5:59
i just started the segment i was already like done the title so thank you carter for chiming in cory hogan i want to talk about i want to talk about responses to attack ads first of all we've talked about polling uh and for those new to the segment i introduce an item that we see happen often in our political universe it could be a line of messaging It could be a political tactic, it could be a strategy. And I question the premise, why the fuck do we still do this? Corey, there's two parts to this. Number one, as politicians, we've talked about this from the polling perspective, politicians will often refuse to say that they look at polling, that they've seen the recent polling, that they've heard about the polling, that there is a poll out there. They seem to have a similar manner about attack ads or ads about them out there, so to speak, which seems even more inexcusable because attack ads don't take a lot of absorption. They're usually 15 to 30 seconds of shit about you. You probably want to know what people are saying about you. Corey, politicians usually refuse to say that they've watched them. And then they always have opinions about them. Their opinions usually range from, I haven't seen them, but comma, you know, I want to run a positive campaign. I, you know, we need more and more civility. We need, you know, I'm not here to get into the mud. I'm here to kind of take the moral high ground. Corey, the question is, why the fuck do we still do this, knowing the new rules of politics? And let me show you our most recent example of both of those things, Corey. Bonnie Crombie. The Ontario PCs are running attack ads against her. We know that they are. They've put money behind these attack ads. These spots seem relatively generic in terms of, you know, this is someone who's an insider, wants to cash in her paycheck. The content of them is kind of almost irrelevant to a certain degree, because we're not going into an ad analysis. That's not what I want to do here. But a response, Corey, highlights exactly the two things I'm talking about. Number one, I haven't seen them. But number two, man, do I have opinions about them? And she goes down the path of civility and trying to be above the fray, etc. Corey, this is a tried and tested script. I don't know if it's an effective one. Why the fuck do we? Yeah,
Corey
8:04
Yeah, well, let's just start with the basic vibe around attack ads, because that is where this starts. And that's that you're supposed to not like them. politicians always tut tut the other other person's attack ads they'll always describe their own attack ads as not attack ads no i'm just raising important contrasts important questions whatever the situation might be and so uh you know and that is somewhat rooted on this very shallow if you polled somebody i guess what i'm trying to say is if you polled the electorate they would say they don't like attack ads doesn't
Corey
8:35
doesn't mean they're not effective we've talked about this this a hundred times. And we'll talk about it a hundred more. So in some ways, the easiest answer to your question, Zane, is they say they don't like attack ads because they know voters don't like attack ads. And it's the easiest way that they can kind of align themselves with it and tut-tut and get like an easy point on them.
Corey
8:55
But to kind of expand on it a little bit and talk about what you were saying in terms of, you know, this notion, like they're supposed to have not seen this 15 second clip about themselves like yeah look if if that's your approach to life if if you live a life of active information avoidance to the point where you won't watch a 15 second hit on you about your job i mean you're not very good at your job and i don't really trust you to do anything you're probably the kind of person who doesn't open bank statements to come to your house too right so oh like i sort of agree like it's kind of a dumb thing for a politician to say but nobody's going to take them to task on it because who's going to stand up and you know only the person who put out the attack ad is going to stand up and say the attack ad's good and they're going to say it's good because it's not even an attack ad it's raising important questions it's bringing contrast for it's just her record it's not an attack ad right carter
Zain
9:47
can i can i frame it this way is the i haven't seen it and then the pivot to i'm going to take the high ground in this case bonnie crombie's line was that doug ford's attack ads show a lack of civility okay that was her line is
Zain
10:00
is this the safe play
Zain
10:02
no and is this like the safe political play to kind of be like to cory's point no one's going to take you to task might as well use the dusted off script on attack ads and just move on what
Carter
10:12
what are you trying to do bore the electorate to death like is that how you think you're going to win the election win an election they won't have an opinion about me because i'm just too fucking boring if that's your campaign strategy i guess that's okay um personally i i just love the idea of saying well you know i've seen better you know like what did you think about the attack ad i've seen better you know i i think that they could have you know done
Carter
10:37
done a better job on it like it just wasn't that good yeah
Corey
10:40
yeah there's there's worse pictures of me to put in slow-mo black and white i
Carter
10:44
couldn't believe actually that they used one of me smiling like that's unbelievable um like i
Carter
10:50
i don't know i've seen better they could have done done better but they didn't and uh here we are you know the it's not like the conservatives have done very much very good uh i guess we shouldn't be surprised so
Corey
11:01
so i i enjoy the flipness of it in a podcast sense but let's play that out i'm i'm now the reporter steven okay let's do it let's
Corey
11:09
it okay you go ahead you um i've seen better so uh i've
Carter
11:14
i've seen better i mean uh
Carter
11:16
uh this seems to be the one thing that they want to be good at is attack ads and they can't even seem to do those very well disappointed i'm
Corey
11:22
i'm sorry miss crombie in your answer you said they could have done better what would have been a better attack at all i'm
Carter
11:27
i'm sure there's worse pictures of me i'm sure that there's got to be one with my eyes crossed i mean why wouldn't they add some ai generated fangs like let's go deep let's go deep on this dig in guys like let's really commit to the attack at you know i i would say that they lack civility but that's got to be the least of their sins they lack common sense they lack ability to do the work that needs to be done they lack a vision but yeah they also lack they hurt my feelings they
Zain
12:00
they like a they like a creative director yeah that's
Carter
12:04
that was tragic give it another try i'll tell you what i'll send you my creative team they've got opinions about me i'll tell you because sometimes i don't count sometimes they get a little cranky with them i got cranky because we tried to do an ad on on hydro and we wound up doing an ad on nuclear but i'm pumped hey how about that huh no
Corey
12:25
okay that was a pretty good answer right up until you blew your own foot off but
Carter
12:29
but it's pretty funny but
Carter
12:30
but my point is simply this when
Carter
12:33
when you're doing stuff that is absolutely by the book of course they're going to do negative ads against a new leader what is it your first day then respond in kind right don't be don't pull out it's civil it's uncivil what the fuck kind of drivel is that that's embarrassing this you
Carter
12:51
you know cory where
Zain
12:52
where carter's going whether it's the flip comment the sarcastic comment the clap back whatever you want to call it oh
Corey
12:57
oh i like it he's convincing me the
Zain
12:59
the heart of my question is do we leave opportunity on the table when we stick to this tried and trued method oh yeah right whatever that that opportunity may look like carter's presented as one example of that do you think we are leaving opportunity on the table politically look i
Corey
13:14
i think whenever you do this segment the answer is usually it comes down to risk reward and and the reward is not high enough to break away from the pack and that's why they just play it safe like that's the answer to almost every version of this that you've brought up right what is the place although carter
Zain
13:30
carter calls this not the same yeah
Corey
13:31
yeah well like where i think this one might be a little bit different and a little bit interesting for me is you are on the defensive almost by definition the minute somebody pulls out attack ads like this and so it's not really the safe play to sit there and frown and say oh that was bad you know oh oh it was uncivil uncivil is not a defense yeah uncivil is not a defense why
Carter
13:58
doesn't answer the primary questions it doesn't
Corey
14:00
doesn't rebut the charges
Carter
14:01
charges that you've got you know that you're in it for yourself that you take a big paycheck oh that's uncivil in fact it it kind of right right
Zain
14:09
right you're self-serving self-dealing etc yeah
Carter
14:12
yeah it's it basically says yeah they were right but they did it meanly like they hurt my feelings like that's essentially what you're saying yeah i'm all of those things but it hurts my feelings when you bring it up so don't do that anymore because i don't like it it makes me sad Yeah.
Corey
14:28
Yeah. And also, you could have put out a press release saying, I'm starting an investigation. Someone's clearly stolen an attack ad on Doug Ford for
Corey
14:36
for Doug Ford to release here, right? I've
Carter
14:40
I've talked to my team. We had that one in the can. I can't believe we didn't put it out.
Corey
14:46
We were going to, but it was too hack.
Carter
14:47
You know what? It was too uncivil. Give me a joke.
Zain
14:52
know, Carter, I feel like there's also something else going on, and I'm curious to test this with you as well, which is, have we been, and Corey's going to love this line of thinking, have we been West Wingified a little bit too much in this broader concept of rejecting the premise of when given an opportunity to go at something directly, rather than doing that, just like saying, no, like, this is not about, this is about like something totally different. And I feel like we see that quite often, right? Where there's like a charge on the table, there's these attack ads, I haven't watched it. I'm rejecting the premise of the fact that we can discuss the content of this attack ad, right? I'm putting that aside. Rather, this is about civility. Versus actually saying that, you know, that concept of rejecting the premise should be used sparingly, and that there is political value about going at something directly, using Using that and saying, you know what, they said this about this attack. Fuck these. This is not true. Here's what could happen. I'm kind of curious if that also plays into it, because, you know, the safe opportunity now seems to be one person said X. The other person said, well, I don't care about X or I never saw X. Let me
Zain
16:01
talk about Y instead. And that kind of seems to be our politics. Two wavelengths constantly, never colliding,
Carter
16:06
colliding, never intersecting. The problem with that is that you're by ironically, by rejecting this particular premise, right? I didn't watch the ad, but it's in civil.
Carter
16:16
did we just did we just acknowledge that that those two concepts don't fit together how do you know it was uncivil right like the the point of the exercise shouldn't be to always deflect right everything is you know like you can attack things head on especially if you use a sense of humor but you know maybe bonnie crombie doesn't have a sense of humor maybe no one around her has a sense of humor and that's why they can't see anything except to pretend that they didn't see it uh try and i try and dodge it when there was just so many more options on the table i just think that they're this portray i think i don't like the premise of this is a west wingification of something because this is this is just so weak that even a fucking script writer wouldn't think to do this it's just too weak there's no there's no arc story arc to it there's nothing there yeah
Corey
17:08
yeah if it was the west way carter rejects the fact that this
Corey
17:12
this is a west it's
Zain
17:13
yeah west wingification what a what a fucking
Corey
17:16
turd remind me that i want to put rising violins underneath his answer there you know so that'd be so good really get the full effect all
Zain
17:24
well no there it's actually a cello and it's yo-yo ma and it's uh some mental there's
Corey
17:28
there's gonna be uh there's
Corey
17:30
hate myself that i knew exactly what you were talking about oh
Corey
17:33
yeah i'm very upset about that of course you did you
Carter
17:37
pretended not to like it but you'd liked it cory
Zain
17:41
who was sunny weaver senior did we ever figure out who sunny weaver senior was in draft
Corey
17:46
draft day you know i think he had like something with the organization previously i do feel like there was a comment was he dad was he just like the general manager
Zain
17:55
kevin costner just like could never get it done until he like made his bold moves at the end of the hour and 51 minutes is that what the whole premise was i
Corey
18:03
kind of feel like i kind of feel like that was the thing but But, like, we can just say whatever we want. Nobody has watched Draft Day in at least, you know, eight years. So I think
Zain
18:13
think we're okay here.
Zain
18:13
We are going to make Draft Day the official Christmas movie of the Strategist podcast, which, by the way, reminds me, Corey, we are due for our holiday spectacular. Now, it is not our Christmas special. It is not the year-end special. It is a tradition on this show. It is the holiday spectacular presented to us by Flair Airlines, of course. this is the one yearly commitment we owe them in terms of sponsorship and we deliver uh so sometime between christmas and next christmas cory we will be delivering that holiday spectacular right more than likely on ramadan given the the the fact that two out of the three are muslim uh and one of us is a secret muslim so we're probably going to be we're doing it then yeah that's right yeah uh
Corey
19:00
That's a good point. Nation
Zain
19:01
Nation of Islam, Carter.
Zain
19:03
You liking it so far?
Carter
19:07
I miss the bacon, if I'm honest. But other than that, it's been great. Let's
Zain
19:12
Let's get back to this tire fire of an episode.
Zain
19:19
What? What did I say? What would your... Are you okay? What would your ideal sort of... If you were to help write a new script for a response to, to, hey, someone's got an attack ad about you. If you were to, like, template something, like your, like, new template that you would just hand out to political parties, hey, I don't care if you wear blue, hey, you wear orange, I don't give a fuck, hey, you wear red, I don't give a fuck. Here's the new bullet points that you start responding with when someone says, have you seen this new attack ad about you? What would your two or three bullet points be, Carter, for politicians going forward? Because if we agree there's opportunity being left on the table, Give me a new script that tries to recoup some of that opportunity. Corey, I'll come to you to help finish this off, too.
Carter
20:07
believe the professional response is, Na-na-na-na-na-na, missed me, missed me.
Carter
20:13
Because if you acknowledge that it hurt in any way, shape, or form, then you're giving them the power. You have to basically be, it missed, right? It didn't hit me. The other reaction is, I know you are, but what am i um which i think is also another pretty professional reaction that can work and people may think i'm joking i'm not actually that's how you actually kind
Zain
20:36
kind of get exactly
Zain
20:37
where you're up to and i'd say implicit in both of your answers is that yes i have seen them and yes they either missed or yes someone should look in the mirror right like this is not about me it's about that sort of thing like it is i'm paraphrasing your response here but is that fair to say
Carter
20:57
totally that's exactly what it is i mean um i mean we see a significant projection here from from doug ford i mean whoo
Carter
21:06
whoo i'm i'm i'm i'm worried about him actually how much he's projecting his own behavior onto me um well
Carter
21:13
well that's something you know like like there's a bunch of different things you can do in this but bottom line you do not wish to accept the idea that it was even an attack cat why
Carter
21:23
why would you even say it was an attack cat i mean they They shot at me. I see that, but surely they didn't hit, right?
Carter
21:29
right? Like that was, if that's the best they got, like seriously, you can't accept the premise of the attack.
Zain
21:37
Well, here we go. Rejecting premises. This has come full circle. Yeah. I'm talking about accepting premises in some way, including the fact that I've seen the ad and it's shitty, but I kind of get what you're saying, Carter, in your roundabout logic here. No,
Carter
21:49
No, but you're, I'm accepting that we've seen it. I'm accepting
Zain
21:51
accepting that we've seen it. You are accepting that.
Zain
21:52
that. No, no, I agree. agree. Corey, help me polish up this script that you're handing out to politicians. This is the binder that we're creating for new rules. What are your couple bullet points? Carter's saying, yes, I've seen it, and then you kind of have a couple. He has a tree that he's created. Are you scrapping this? Are you adding your own? Are you adding different branches to this tree?
Corey
22:17
You know, it's interesting to me as I sit in there and think about it, what are you trying to do? Let's just start there. right your goal when this comes out is what is it to to get points on the other person is it to rebut the charge is it to frame out who you are and you know i think that that's maybe different situation to situation but i wonder if the rules aren't different can we pause
Zain
22:40
pause there for a second and can we pause there in terms of like when someone attacks you and you're asked about it isn't like the golden opportunity cory to
Zain
22:51
to all like the golden goal if i can call it that right like if this is a spectrum to take that charge and like use its energy against whoever leveled it and
Zain
23:00
and then you have on the other side of the spectrum like deflect or neutralize or whatever i'm trying to think of a spectrum in my mind right yeah
Corey
23:08
yeah you're thinking of like a judo yes yes yes being like well so let's say that's the case carter
Corey
23:13
carter so let's say that's the case i'm not I'm not 100% sure it is. I'm
Corey
23:16
this out there as an explanation. I'm not 100% sure it is.
Corey
23:20
But let's say that you do want to... If it is, isn't this... I just want to throw this out there. I'm not suggesting... This is not official Corey Hogan advice on this podcast. But if this is what you want to do, if the whole idea is judo, don't you just want to swing for the ever-loving fucking fences then? Like, wouldn't the strategy be just to go totally hard as a motherfucker against them? Like, if every accusation is a confession, why didn't she, if you want to do this, why didn't she just say, like, he couldn't have been projecting more unless he called me the less talented brother in a family of drug dealers, right? Like, just own the fucking
Corey
23:57
headline, if that's what you're trying to do. Because,
Zain
24:08
Would you bring, like, props? Like, would you bring your own crack pipe to the event? do
Carter
24:20
much as i appreciate cory's answer why are you trying to hit the ball out of the park but this is my question it's
Zain
24:26
it's all about goals like
Carter
24:27
like you're you're playing the field you're not up you're not up to bat just get out
Corey
24:31
out of this but
Corey
24:33
but okay but like so this is the this is the hypothetical i'm like i'm just trying to take that logic to its conclusion like Like if the whole idea is like a judo hit where you come back at them with three times the heat that they came at you, then give them three times the heat, right? But like I'm not actually sure that's what your goal is in this situation, right? The goal is to kind of minimalize and move on. But why is the goal always to minimalize and move on or to neutralize? Why is that the goal? Because it's not your message box. Because you don't repeat the charge, right? Yeah, you never do. Carter's right. right it's not your message box and you're sitting there and all of a sudden you know it's like the classic like make them deny they're a pig fucker right would she have been better served by 30 minutes of her explaining how she wasn't in it for the money
Zain
25:18
money no no no i just i don't think anyone's saying that yeah
Zain
25:21
yeah but i mean your line as as crass as it is there is a world where if her brand is huge populist pugilist right
Zain
25:31
right and i'm not saying that that's what the party's decided for her that's something along that line combining what you said and what Carter sort of like yeah fuck I've seen it it's about me I was told to watch it it was very shitty and like you know like going down that sort of path right it
Carter
25:49
was very shitty as a long ways from the less talented drug dealing brother
Carter
25:55
you know like the risk associated with Corey's line as great as it was and let's be clear greatest line in politics ever um like
Carter
26:07
no but the risk associated with it is so massive is to be comical whereas the you know like the other stuff is just like let's get out of it yeah
Corey
26:15
yeah well so like it is risk benefit but zane to your point it's
Corey
26:19
it's it you know your goal might be to sort of use this as an opportunity to show your brand and if your brand is like oh i'm the maverick i always do things kind of like everybody else is is going to say i didn't see it i'm gonna be like yeah i fucking watched it jesus i hope they didn't pay very much money for that i guess probably more nepotism we're thinking does he have another nephew that he's given a job to that he doesn't deserve you know that's
Corey
26:44
i think i should be leader
Carter
26:44
leader of the ontario liberals that's what i've decided this
Zain
26:48
oh my god but cory can you go back to your actual point around what are your goals and like okay so you have you've dispensed to me yeah or you've kind of parked parked uh
Zain
26:57
your advice you've dispensed me your advice you've parked the notion that this is about neutralization for a purpose uh but go back to your point and and because i want to actually get the bullet points carter's given me his model of the tree yeah what
Corey
27:13
so the bigger thing is like what is your goal in this particular moment there's only so many things you can reasonably serve up when you're playing defense and i think ultimately it's either to entirely minimize conversation on it which seemed to be bonnie crombie's approach right uh
Corey
27:27
uh you know and she did the kind of thing the line that is has raised your concern which is like why would you say you didn't watch it why would you tut tut the ad there are other ways you could minimize it but the other way is you make it a character moment and this is an introduction of you to the people of ontario not everybody knows who bonnie crombie is and so if you want want to make it a character moment it's it's like theater character moment you've got to be so big you've got to kind of just take over the story with with your response in some way shape or form i'm not saying it has to be anything like what i said there but there are ways that you just sort of and maybe this is your judo point right you take the moment they've presented you and you elevate on it you you find a way to make the story all about who you are in a way that is helpful to to you right that that shows that you do things differently if you're the person who does things differently who shows that you're gonna approach these things in kind of like uh i don't even know like i because i just think they'd be some dumb strategies along the way but let's say you wanted to be you know miss non-partisan here where it's like well geez you know you know doug raises a point that i think we should be asking about all politicians and he should look at some you know i've reflected on that point myself i think he should reflect on it i don't think that's a good strategy my point is what
Corey
28:43
what you could use it as a carrot
Carter
28:44
carrot let's just all agree that bonnie crommie's response was the worst of all of them yeah
Corey
28:49
yeah it was it was in this no i think the i think the the drug dealer won my yeah no
Carter
28:54
no that was fucking money i think that people would have lined up for that she'd have been elected premier the next day you
Zain
29:03
so so this is helpful i feel like the natural question then is is how can i ask you can i just go deeper on this for no reason whatsoever Corey, which could also be the alternative title to this podcast.
Zain
29:15
If you wanted to go with that very snappy, witty retort, the question I'd have for you as someone advising a politician to go down that lane, let's just imagine you've kind of taken all the other lanes out. That's the lane you've chosen for strategic reasons. I don't even care what the strategic reasons are. You've decided, you know what? Yes. How do you best prep someone to do that? Are
Zain
29:37
Are you giving them the line? Are you just relying them on being who they are and they'll hit one and they'll miss three because it's baseball and it doesn't matter like give me the how in how you like make sure you execute something like what you just did on this pod well enough that it actually does rise above the fold rather than totally bomb or is just bombing part of the equation one out of every three times and you're just working it out on the fly. Give me your take.
Corey
30:06
well let's let's talk about the the the bad the worst version you go out with a canned line and you flub the delivery of the canned line making it clear that it was a canned line making it clear that you can't deliver the canned line and just absolutely undercutting everything and also you lose that deniability of i was being flip in the moment totally because totally like the thing i just said if i were bonnie crombie and the world came down on me i'd be like not wise of me to say it my bad you know in the moment you can't say that if you clearly had it in the can and if you've projected that it's in the can so the worst version is that it looks like it's a can did you
Zain
30:42
you have this in
Corey
30:42
in the second worst is that it looks like a can did
Zain
30:44
did you have this in the can or no was this like an authentic moment okay what
Zain
30:47
can i didn't know we were yeah no
Carter
30:49
no i mean fuck that was improvised that was fantastic that was the best thing i've ever seen okay
Zain
30:53
okay okay carter just stop you may need to change your pajamas soon cory um
Carter
30:59
got a little i've got a little little wedgie down like there's stuff going on for me okay
Zain
31:04
going keep going for it so so okay yes you you you expose yourself right yeah yes yeah
Corey
31:11
so you know it's if you can deliver the can line in a way that looks uncanned that would be kind of the next best option the option above that is like it's uncanned and and you are reacting directly to something that was said in the room you've picked up a piece like you know generally you want to go in this space but you're You're not too worried about the specific words, right? That, in my opinion, is the best way to do something like that because it affords you the most defensive options going forward, and it's also going to just be more appealing to people. Carter,
Zain
31:39
Carter, how do you know – and this is related to what Cordy is talking about – how do you know if you have or are working with a politician that you can provide that runway to, that grace to? And we often kind of say, let X be X, right? Right. Like let, you know, West Wing, let Bartlett be Bartlett or let like, you know, let this person be who they are. How do you know who if you have that person that they can hit, so to speak? Like this is kind of like a question that that I think often there's a lot of regret in politics that I've heard from politicians or political staffers being like, fuck, we control them too much. We didn't let them be who they are. We hear that regret all the time, like all the time. um how do you know if you've got someone that you that you should allow to just do what they need to do even if it's one out of every where whatever is a miss well
Carter
32:31
well you speak with them and if they come across like a fucking idiot when you're speaking to them don't let them speak to other people so
Carter
32:39
so so i mean quite literally i mean some politicians you need to script a lot of stuff for because their on the fly game is just so bad uh and often like will result in terrible outcomes but you compare that to a nahed nenshi who's on the fly game was world class like you don't have to script nahed nenshi no one scripted nahed nenshi nahed nenshi did and said everything that needed to be done and said uh in the moment because he knew what needed to be said in the moment better than anybody else so you don't script him because he's already killing it um other politicians you have to be a lot more prescriptive and uh you just hope that they don't get caught on something you didn't prep um because that's that's where you are so
Zain
33:26
so yes carter i agree with your answer and cory but like my my sort of question is really like on the cusp yes you're gonna have a class of politician that you're like this person i'm not gonna limit public exposure and script every line and you're gonna have a class of politician that's like improv genius world debate star of course i'm gonna let them do whatever the fuck they want the nenshi example then it's the politicians that might have that muscle corey that might have that potential that if you gave them the runway they could deliver that's what i'm effectively talking about that the regret comes from a lot of folks being like they may have had that next year we just never let them go for it yeah
Carter
34:05
don't know where the guys are yeah
Corey
34:07
yeah well but here's the here's the thing actually carter's point is a great one because you tend to get um extreme personalities in politics right and uh you there is the successful politician model who is not super
Corey
34:21
super improv genius right there are politicians who can just stick to the script and frankly sticking to the script is often the better strategy right oh it's so great if you can find somebody who can stick to the script and deliver the sense like compassion however if they need to yeah
Corey
34:36
yeah like Like, again, if we're going to tier things, like, sure, I'll take an improv genius over stick to the script, but I'll take stick to the script over anything else. Really? Right? Like, pretty good usually sticks to the script. Oh, yeah. Because, Zane, the thing about sticking to the script, the
Corey
34:52
the thing about sticking to the script is you are going to benefit from the knowledge and the skills of everybody around you. But even
Corey
34:59
if that means. So all of the thinking that went into it with your team.
Zain
35:03
Yeah. Yeah. So all of the thinking that. But what about personality? You fuck up one
Carter
35:07
one scene and it's
Zain
35:08
it's over. I get it, Carter. But what about this X factor of authenticity and personality that the person who almost always sticks to the script but trades that off for a bit of persona or personality, whichever one you want to say, or a bit of authenticity and personal brand, so to speak, stick to the script to me, yeah, competent, can deliver, probably has a bit of depth because they've been briefed well. all they take the job seriously but the other elements they don't have cory
Corey
35:39
well let's use nahid nenshi as an example here right because the thing about on the fly game is it changes over time and people's response to it changes over time
Corey
35:49
and at a certain point you know it becomes like any performer you know they're gonna have highs and then they're gonna have lows and carter has talked about kind of the performer's arc or the you know the actor or
Corey
36:01
celebrity arc to politics right and that is often tied to that speaks from the heart off the cuff just says it like it is but a that feels different in opposition than government what comes off as a god why can't this government understand common sense comes off as fuck you little people i'm the guy in charge now once you're in government uh if you talk about this notion of uh you know you just learn too much in government so you get you become so so detail laden uh if you're a mayor or if you're a premier and then all of a sudden you can't help yourself you just know way too much and that on the fly game really suffers as a result and you know ultimately also this thing is about confidence too and if you go out there and you make a comment and it doesn't work so much and then your game kind of stab you know it can
Corey
36:48
can all go awry very yeah it's a relationship so i think that the point i was trying to make about the games yes well
Corey
36:55
well no but like the point i'm trying to make is this it's
Corey
36:58
it's a variable game like the let blank be blank game is a pretty variable game and even if it's working in a moment might not even work the next week right people get over sticks pretty quickly and if this is not somebody who is perpetually in that kind of improv brain space they might just suck the next week and then uh that was all for nothing now it was an interesting moment on tiktok right for a a minute but the person who follows the script who is just strong and steady in that sense is so often actually the right politician for the job because of the thing that i was saying you have staff of dozens or hundreds even if you're like a leader of a political party or a premier you can benefit from all of their wisdom all of their knowledge all of their communications expertise all of their policy expertise all of their stakeholder expertise all of all of it if If you stick to the script and the
Corey
37:51
the problem in politics, I think more often than not as people deviated from the script because they start to believe the script, they start to believe like, Oh, it says here, I'm the super fucking genius on page three. And I enter stage, right. And I say the uplifting speech that Bartlett would give, right? Yeah. But we wrote you that speech. Yeah. Bartlett was a fictional character, numb nuts. And it's really important to stick to the script. It's more important than not to stick to the Carter. Any final thoughts before you move it on? Cause
Carter
38:18
well, I just want to, you know, actors you know there's there's room for actors to improv in a script right the same way that there's room for actor you know for for politicians but actors get multiple takes
Carter
38:32
politicians get one take stage
Zain
38:33
stage one take not so all that's very different you're right you make a good point right
Carter
38:39
right so all of all of these you
Carter
38:41
you know you will not see the same same improvisational structures on a play that
Carter
38:46
that you see in a actual i mean
Carter
38:49
mean yeah you can go see improv you can go to loose moose and see improv but that's a different thing than going to a you know shakespearean play this
Corey
38:58
this is really a great example because the the other thing i'll say is a lot of those lines that people think are improv are not and we sort of started here too right like the the canned line that you make seem like is not a canned line some
Corey
39:10
some of the most famous ones The ones that seem like they were pulled out in the debate were practiced many, many times before, came up in many, many smaller situations along the way. So, you know, politicians with their improv moments tend to improv in front of safe crowds. And if it kills, then yeah, they'll take it to the show, they'll take it to the matinee. But it's not really where it starts most of the time. Carter,
Zain
39:32
Carter, we're going to leave that segment there. I mean, I'll also mention to people, a good companion pod to this one is the one that we did on swearing. Do you remember that? Cursing in politics around authenticity? Oh, yeah. I thought that was pretty fucking good.
Zain
39:44
Okay, we're going to leave that segment there. We're going to move it on to our- Oh, nice.
Carter
39:47
nice. I see what
Zain
39:47
what you did there. Carter,
Zain
39:48
it's just- That was good.
Zain
39:49
It's just my own genius. So good. Carter. Zane,
Carter
39:52
Zane, you're really knocking it out of the park today. This is one of your best episodes. I mean, like, it's just really impressive. Yeah, well,
Corey
39:58
say I'm the star. Yeah,
Corey
40:02
What? No, no. Not
Carter
40:03
Not anybody we've discussed. I think you weren't even on
Corey
40:05
on the pod for four months. Yeah,
Carter
40:07
Yeah, I was like, I'm too busy. Why'd you lose,
Zain
40:11
Ah, Carter, let me tell you something. Why'd you lose? We're moving on to our over, under, and our lightning round, and we're doing it for you this time, Stephen Carter. We're doing it for you.
Zain
40:19
Stephen Carter, I have one question for you as we head into this Christmas break, which is overrated, underrated
Zain
40:26
underrated Stephen Carter. The Globe and Mail reporting Thursday State had obtained documents showing the government of Alberta directed
Zain
40:32
directed AHS to remove mention of COVID-19 and influenza from their ads for the summer season's immunization campaign. Carter, as
Zain
40:41
as a political damage story, as a policy story, take your angle, overrated, underrated in your mind.
Carter
40:49
Well, we've talked a lot about the idea of communicating around vaccinations, and I can almost see why you'd remove specific things that might push you know create a backfire effect but politicians shouldn't be directing communications at a public health level if that was decided by a public health professional who'd done research uh like you know we did at h and k or in many other different places then i'd be fine with it but i think that it in terms of politics it's going to generate um you know more anger from people who are already angry with danielle smith but no nobody who likes her is going to be impacted at all so
Zain
41:29
so carter overrated or underrated as a political story well
Carter
41:32
well i think i very clearly answered that you
Zain
41:33
you did not cory overrated or underrated as a political story in your mind what do you think
Corey
41:40
carter raises a really interesting point like imagine it was premier rachel notley and the same ad was released right and uh it was well we just thought that it would create a backfire like let's just say that was let's just say that was the conversation and that was the discussion that happened there i
Corey
41:57
i think people would have said you know some people would be like well that's outrageous why are you pandering to this group of people you've just got to tell it like it is but a larger group of people would probably be like okay i guess like if that's what what you think makes sense, right? And so in some ways, this story is so tied to the ill will so many have towards the UCP on this particular matter. There is no trust that the UCP and Daniel Smith even believe in vaccines, let alone are willing to promote vaccines in kind of a regular, consistent, public health friendly way. And that's the crux of the problem. I
Corey
42:31
I don't want to get kind of like too out there and too interpreting the interpretation and all of that. But in some ways, if this story matters, it matters because it tells us so much about how little charity and trust we have in the government on this topic, which is a really important topic.
Corey
42:48
people will live or die based on this. It is always true that your government, your choice of vote when
Corey
42:55
when you vote for a government is a life or death decision. You just don't see it usually in kind of real time, right? Right. But how
Corey
43:02
how they go through education, you know, the opportunities they have or not, social welfare programs that are there for them or not, when they very much need them. You know, at the end of life, the care they get or not, the health care system that they have or not throughout their lives. I mean, you just have to look at the situation in the United States with guns, with health care. You just have to look at, you know, water on reserves or the lack thereof to see how some of these things can affect you. and
Corey
43:30
and and we're in a situation right now where you know it's
Corey
43:35
it's it's really hard to say a therefore b always in government but we
Corey
43:40
we did a shitty job of getting people vaccinated not just this it's not just this campaign it's it's like everything
Carter
43:46
everything has been and
Corey
43:47
and people are dying here more than they're dying in other places and that's a real problem and that's a real thing and so for me it's not the story like it's not going to blow up into like watergate here but it tells us actually something worse and more insidious about where we are as a province and what carter
Carter
44:04
carter finishes i hear today that we have a life we have a life expectancy in alberta that is two years less than the rest of canada you know like these things do have implications and uh you know that's not a great stat it
Zain
44:20
it certainly is not and and we uh we'll leave it there carter we're going to wrap up episode 12 1276 are the strategists wishing everyone a happy holidays, a merry Christmas. And Stephen and Corey, of course, we're also wishing that everyone huddle around the fire and they watch the best Christmas movie of all time, Draft Day, which, you know, split the family in half, right? Be Team Beau, be Team Vontae. That's what we do in my household. We've been doing it for years, since 2014 when this movie was released, Corey. I suspect it's the same in your household. old
Corey
44:54
oh yeah straight up well i have similar traditions we call each other pancake eating motherfuckers it's
Carter
44:59
it's cute when the kids do it let's
Zain
45:03
let's wrap up episode 1276 this is strategist my name is zane belger with me it's always cory hogan steven carter and we'll see you for the holiday spectacular next time