Episode 1275: Two Hours on the Alberta NDP Leadership Race

Zain 0:01

This is the Strategist episode 1275. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Yeah, that's a lot of white men names. But Corey, we've got another name that is top of our mind, tip of our tongue. And that name, Corey, really high on it. It's Dave. Dave. Dave. Now, now, now, Dave is

Corey 0:19

is always kind of on our mind. Yeah, Dave. But

Zain 0:21

But there's a specific Dave that we want to tell something to. Corey, what do we want to tell this specific Dave? uh at this very critical juncture so

Corey 0:33

so uh of course in alberta as our patrons already know because we mentioned this on the patreon episode there is a kind of a a wizened old man of uh of political analysis dave cornway and every year he has a he has a contest to see who's

Corey 0:50

who's the best mla who's the best up-and-comer who was the cabinet minister who was the person who should have won but didn't those kinds of questions and of course biggest you know political victory of the year political strategy victory of the year and we really want to win it this year in years past we've been nominated it's an honor to

Carter 1:07

to be nominated but

Corey 1:07

but it's very important for our listeners out there

Corey 1:11

to go to telldave.ca before sunday december 17th at 8 p.m vote

Corey 1:16

for the strategists to

Corey 1:18

to win the the category of i don't know i think it was like best political strategy

Carter 1:22

strategy i think okay

Corey 1:24

okay is that actually what it was i don't

Carter 1:26

know best strategic play of

Corey 1:27

of the year play of the year okay oh yeah it's what the important thing is this link yeah

Corey 1:32

yeah pre-fills it out for you so as long as you go before 8 p.m on sunday december 17th i need to stress that dave's a stickler for these things you've got to do it before

Corey 1:41

before sunday december 17th at 8 p.m that

Carter 1:44

that is so good cory you're exactly that you're correct yeah

Corey 1:48

did it in an economy of time too yeah

Carter 1:50

yeah the whole patreon one like took about a day or two let

Zain 1:54

let me clean up let me clean up your mess uh dave is younger than all of us so he's not that old um which is sad in some way i don't think he's younger than you oh i think he might be younger than

Zain 2:03

he might be younger than no i don't think he is um no he's ancient

Carter 2:06

ancient i mean have you talked to the guy it's like talking to slow motion when

Zain 2:10

you get a chance And also tell Dave how old he is, okay? Also tell Dave that he's aging poorly. And if we don't win, okay, Carter? If we don't win... What are

Zain 2:20

talking about? We don't win. We have plans. We have plans, okay? We have plans,

Corey 2:25

plans, okay? You got to manifest.

Zain 2:27

way we... I don't need your Instagram influencer energy here, Corey, okay? I have been disappointed enough by the political establishment of Alberta. So if we don't win, Dave, just letting you know, we've got plans, okay? Corey's going to come up with those plans, whatever they are. Okay, Carter, that was thing number one. Thing number two, I made an appearance on West of Center this past week. It was all the rage on the Discord. And let me tell you something. We weren't invited? You were not invited. This was their first annual end-of-season holiday trivia quiz. is and i am i am letting you guys know that i came in second place which i think i think is pretty good let

Zain 3:10

let me tell you second out of this was two there was three people there was three people okay okay let me tell you this let me let me let me frame it for you let me frame this success for you thing number one the winner alex boyd journalist from the toronto star okay the entire tour star establishment at her disposal she had access to all of it an institutional player She takes first place, right? Not that impressive when you think about, you know, all the money, time, and energy that Touristar put behind her, okay? She's also

Carter 3:36

also pretty smart. Who came

Zain 3:37

came in? Okay, there's also that. Who came in third?

Zain 3:39

Mike Solberg, okay? A Solberg. Institutional energy, family history. He shit the bed, okay? In my mind, he shit the bed. He came in third. Have

Corey 3:48

Have you met Matt?

Corey 3:50

Mike's the dumb Solberg. This

Zain 3:51

This is true. This is true. And you can actually— I love you, Mike. You can get the entire history of it at solbergsoiledit.ca. which will have the entire history of the Solberg political clan. Carter, me, an independent player, freelancing, zero prep, second place. I feel like I did.

Carter 4:08

did. Well, the zero

Zain 4:09

zero prep is really

Carter 4:12

Zero prep is really planning. I mean, like, did you know it was the end of your quiz?

Zain 4:17

I did. I did. But I thought I'd know everything.

Zain 4:19

And you did no homework. They asked us numbers. Let me ask you one of the questions they asked me, okay? I think you're going to get it. what is the raw dollar figure that alberta wants from the alberta from the cpp

Carter 4:32

uh i believe it is 324 billion dollars alex well

Corey 4:37

well i'm not alex that's a wits okay so

Corey 4:40

so does it count does it need to be in the form of a question yeah what

Carter 4:43

what is uh 324 billion dollars alex uh

Zain 4:46

uh you mean ken you

Zain 4:48

you mean ken sorry sorry car

Zain 4:49

car you mean you mean ken jennings carter

Carter 4:53

is alex dead jesus

Zain 4:58

cory carter's answer is 300 324 what is yours uh

Corey 5:02

my answer is 53 but also 334 okay

Zain 5:06

okay you fucking google

Corey 5:06

google that shit you could see it no no you did not know this

Zain 5:08

this you did i

Zain 5:09

got 53 334 um uh we had had other questions like what was the surplus at some point during the year um guesses

Zain 5:18

yeah that was the most recent one guesses included uh 15 uh 40 uh and three and a half just so you know we had a wide range um and let me tell you something kathleen petty she just she just looks at you the whole time but you know you can you could also congratulate me at congratulate zane dot ca which is going to be a new website where you're able to uh send me a congratulatory email You're going to

Zain 5:39

us. You can send me a congratulatory email for my second place finish. It's Christmas, man. I think on the grading curve, I won. I won. It was a very slim victory for the institutional player in that race. Soilberg soiled it, as we know, but I feel like I won that thing. So

Carter 5:55

So which Soilberg was it? It was Mike? This was the dumb

Zain 5:57

dumb one. This was the dumb one that we were

Carter 5:59

were talking about. Oh, the dumb one. Okay.

Zain 6:01

I'm sorry. That's a quote by Corey, who's going to have a lot of apologizing to do to Mike Soilberg. Good. Good. Are we done with this? No,

Carter 6:08

No, we won't. Mike Solberg won't even remember.

Zain 6:13

Jesus Christ, Carter. Okay, let's move it. Okay, do we want to move it on?

Corey 6:19

Yeah, I mean, it's already 8.45 on Sunday, December 17th. We

Zain 6:25

By the way, just reminding you, there is a deadline at telldave.ca. Thankfully, we have not passed it. Don't forget it. Don't forget the deadline. We will get in

Zain 6:33

in at the deadline or earlier or sooner. come on carter anything else to talk about before i move on because we've got one big topic we're going to cover is there anything you want to talk about as we um as

Zain 6:46

as we as we jump into our first topic steven massive

Carter 6:49

massive headache today yeah

Carter 6:51

so if i seem cranky

Carter 6:54

it's because of the headache okay

Corey 6:57

okay way to undercut everything you're about to yeah fuck

Zain 7:03

pretty good um cory um what what is um what is going on in your world

Zain 7:10

i don't have a headache excellent

Carter 7:13

this watch uh taylor

Carter 7:14

taylor swift at the football game no

Zain 7:17

no what did she that's

Carter 7:18

that's all i that's all that's all my tiktok is right now no

Zain 7:21

no it's been your tiktok for months carter you need to get out of that boot loop i

Carter 7:27

there's something called kneel the seal that my kids are telling me about, so I got to get onto that. What is kneel the seal?

Corey 7:33

no, Zane, no. No. No, what are you doing?

Carter 7:37

it's a seal in Tasmania that's been terrorizing the town because

Carter 7:41

because it gets out and it's been like lying in front of people's cars. Zane, I want you to know,

Corey 7:46

know, you asked him. You

Carter 7:47

You know, it's a 600

Corey 7:50

To me and to the rest

Carter 7:51

rest of our listeners. He just, he comes out and he lies on the ground.

Carter 7:55

Oh, he's so lazy.

Carter 7:59

could be in the first segment already. He's one of only 30 SEALs born in Tasmania. But

Carter 8:03

we are. In the last little while. And he's still talking. It's

Corey 8:06

I don't even know.

Corey 8:08

How does someone with 300 kilograms

Carter 8:09

kilograms travel around the town? But that's what happens. This is normally where you have to say

Corey 8:14

say one of the things that you say. It's

Carter 8:16

It's amazing, really. Let's move it on to our first segment. I'm a big fan. Oh, there we go.

Zain 8:22

Snapping into focus, Stephen Carter. Let's move on to our next segment, our next segment, passing the torch to the new boss, Stephen Carter. Jason Markosoff has written a piece about the Alberta NDP. This is a political party for those from across the country that may not remember or may not know that is the official opposition here in Alberta.

Zain 8:41

In the piece, Markosoff talks about Rachel Notley, the former premier, the current leader of the party. Corey, we on this podcast have talked extensively about if Rachel Notley will leave, what that looks like. Carter, we had a great episode where Corey was wrong, I was right around how she should leave, whether it should be a speech or a video. You can pick the winning team, and we know exactly what that is, Carter. It's a speech. That is incorrect. And Carter, that is wrong once again, but I get it. It's for sure speech. It's definitely not. So

Carter 9:09

I'm on Corey's team. It's very upsetting. It

Zain 9:11

It is upsetting that both of you actually have lost your mojo on this pod. But Corey, here's what we're going to talk about. We're going to not talk about Rachel Notley. We're just going to enter a period right now where we talk about who can potentially take over. Because in this piece that Markosov has put out, there are a few candidates that have emerged within the current NDP caucus. He lays out three particular candidates. We'll talk about each one of them. He talks about what their pros are, so the pros of their candidacy, so to speak, PROS, I guess, rather than PROSE, just so folks know what I'm talking about. out, what their viability might look like and how they might be angling for the leadership. I want to talk about the dynamics. There's so much to talk about in terms of right now, even prior to having Rachel Notley announce, is it valuable

Zain 10:01

valuable to have her name out in the media? What do each of these camps need to do? How do they need to position themselves? Do they need to position themselves? So many questions. But Corey, I'll give you the first word in terms of where we find ourselves right now now with rumors of Rachel Notley potentially leaving after a very storied tenure with the NDP and those that are within that caucus potentially looking to take her seat while she still has it.

Corey 10:26

Yeah, so can I just say off the bat how relieved I am that this piece is out? Because literally for months now, whenever this topic has come up, we've not really had anything to anchor it on, and there's been whispers and rumors, but not like media conversation about this. I have no idea about the 100% veracity of what Jason Markasoff put out. There's a couple of various components in there that maybe can be pulled apart, but I can say- People should go read it,

Zain 10:51

it, by the way.

Corey 10:51

way. It's a good piece. They should. It is for sure 100% what I've been hearing for the past bit. It might not be 100% complete. There's been other conversations out there as well, additional threads, additional people in the mix, but it is, by and large, what everybody's been talking about in in the back rooms for for months now and it kind of it kind of puts out there that narrative you know maybe not 100 perfect maybe not 100 complete but really pretty consistent with everything else that i've been hearing through like the various you know hangers-on in politics if carter sort of wants to validate that let

Zain 11:25

let me let me dig deeper first of all like in what sense and secondly why does that actually matter like in both of them might be obvious questions but i think they're worthy of asking yeah

Corey 11:35

well in what sense in the sense of like this is the general thinking that's driving rachel notley's decision making these are the people who are looking around and talking to people and organizing within the ndp caucus those conversations are all happening these are people on the outside who maybe are a little bit interested in it these are what some of the dynamics might be if this goes on these are some of the considerations that everybody's going to have to contend with and now uh you know we can we can kind of anchor a conversation on something thing that's more than like maybe you want to still call it rumor but now it's rumor the cbc printed at least and we can talk about it with a little bit more concreteness as we move forward here carter

Zain 12:12

carter you're giving give me some of your takes and then i've got a path that i want to it's a windy path uh as expected that i want to lead you guys down but give me your top line take in terms of the markosov piece and and and how he's framed the current state of affairs with with three leading candidates three camps and we'll talk about those candidates in detail in a moment well

Carter 12:30

i think that this is what happened like this is what happens when you run out of news to a degree i mean um there were lots of things happening during the legislative session no one was really focusing on uh rachel notley's imminent departure um and let's be clear she is going to leave you know sooner than later i mean i think that that's um a real a real truth uh sooner than later being that she'll be out closer to the

Carter 12:59

the first year than the fourth year. That's probably the easiest way to put it. So people are naturally gearing up. People

Carter 13:06

People are getting started. And this type of an article is the standard media piece where they say, okay, this is something that's bound to happen. Who's going to run? What are their perceived weaknesses and strengths? I mean, it's just absolutely kind of pro forma for what we would expect for a known departure of a leader. And this one, to me, is

Carter 13:28

is a total known departure. We know she's going to go. This isn't something that's baffling or something that we're waiting to confirm, really. Corey's

Corey 13:37

Corey's eager to get in. Yeah, jump in, Corey. Yeah, you asked why this matters, and I said why it matters for us, but let me tell you why it actually matters, which is, building on what Carter said, this has generally been a known but unspoken or often hedged with, if she decides to go, which I suppose we should still do, because Rachel Notley could decide not to go, but it has not been kind of publicly discussed in a way that would drive an article like this. So that matters because it's one thing for that sort of to be implicit, but the minute it becomes a little more explicit through articles like this, I think it starts to signal the end of something, whether you want it to or not, right? And people start acting differently and people start planning differently. But the other thing I want to throw on the table is now we have a couple of people, three people in particular, who have been explicitly named as candidates in this thing. And that matters too, because now the next time Sarah Hoffman makes a comment about municipal affairs, people are going to be looking at it through the lens of, well, is she saying this as an NDP critic and Rachel Notley's team, or is she saying this for herself? And it changes how everything is perceived from this moment forward, because we cannot help but think of Racky Serra and Kathleen as leadership candidates now. And that's just the reality that I think a lot of people have been struggling with. But that circle just got way bigger this weekend, even though it was kind of implied, but not necessarily explicit. Now it's pretty explicit. It is such an

Zain 15:04

an interesting conversation to me, Carter, what Corey's talking about here, between what the rumor mill churns out, and not even the rumor mill, but like the insiders, so to speak, and I use that term in the loosest fashion, right? The political insiders are the operatives and the activists and what they know, versus what happens when it sees the light of day through a news article or through a wider public domain. And I guess the question I have leads into exactly what Corey's talking about, Carter, which is now that you've got three leading candidates within the Alberta NDP caucus named with Racky Pancholi, Sarah Hoffman, Kathleen Ganley, and like I said, I'll discuss each one of them. What does this do for them? Is this good for them? Let's start here. Or is it conditional on if it's good for them? And let me frame it in a sense, right? I said we don't want to talk about Rachel Notley, but it is important. And you still have a sitting leader. Is it good to have your name be openly discussed while there is a sitting leader? Are you from the school of thought that all press is good press? Is it conditional depending on who you are, so to speak? Give me your thoughts on like the top line. Now that you're named, is that a good thing? Or would you rather not be named, Carter? her yeah

Carter 16:16

yeah it's a great thing i mean will

Carter 16:18

will rachel notley be upset yeah maybe who cares right she's going to be the leader for a period of time but she's not going to be the leader forever so the punishments uh the punishment that she could dish out for the quote-unquote disloyalty that you're showing by enabling your name to show up um is relatively minimal um if rocky and sarah and uh kathleen have done their jobs properly they've probably already had a conversation with her and said you know this is something we're considering and and uh you know we don't want to start anything before you give us the go so but just know that we're thinking about it and thinking about it in this context means making telephone calls and making sure that people are arranged and making sure that you know the the the organizers are aware that you might do it if the opportunity should arise and of course that gets interpreted as definitive right it's well Well, obviously she's going because she's making telephone calls. That is pretty much the standard operating procedure for a leadership. We see this even when the leader isn't saying that they're going to leave. We see this in Justin Trudeau's world. You know, telephone calls are being made. Organizations are being formed, even though there's no leadership race. And they may not come to be. But right now, it's fairly, it was always good money that there was going to be a leadership in the Alberta NDP.

Zain 17:45

Corey, I'm going to ask you the same question. Can I ask you a derivative of it first? Which is, and I don't know if this, to be absolutely honest, I don't know this to be the case, but I like sometimes zooming out and talking about how you approach certain political strategy plays. Let's say this was the first time your current leader heard about you wanting to do this. What would you do?

Zain 18:04

Would you? And I guess the other way to look at that is that these rumors are probably known, right, to everyone, the insiders, including Rachel Notley and others. But it's really like a people management conversation, right? Being like, hey, I'm hearing you're wanting to leave, potentially, maybe you want to respect that. How do you have that conversation? Even if it isn't on the back end of this Markasoff article, which I know is a little bit of a stretch to think that that would be the world that someone would be living in on the inside. but it might be the first formal time that you hear someone's name. How would you have that conversation? Or when you see them in the hall next time, or when you have that next caucus meeting or whatnot? I find these human dynamics to sometimes be the most uncomfortable, but it also shows a real deafness of being able to navigate leadership in a real way.

Corey 18:50

Yeah, so it's super interesting when the leader has signaled that they're already going to leave, or when everybody expects the leader is going to leave, because there's almost like what's expected of you but what's expected of you and the and the part that each person plays in that conversation is not the real power dynamic anymore so let's start with what will happen in some way shape or form the leader is going to say either

Corey 19:11

either prompted by them coming forward ideally because that's that that's better and it looks better to say hey i'm considering this i just wanted you to know no surprises right i would never do it if you're here all of the things steven's saying or

Corey 19:23

or the leader says hey i saw you in the paper we should talk about this there will be a conversation about kind of expectations, what you're allowed to do, what you're not allowed to do at the current moment that you're in, right? So I understand, but I want to be really clear. I haven't said I'm going yet, and or I haven't pulled that trigger yet, and or even though you all know I'm leaving, I expect you to act in this way if you're going to be part of my shadow cabinet and be using the caucus resources. And by the way, I expect caucus resources to be used in this way. And by the way, I expect you not to be leaning on staff to be part of your team. And by the way, And by the way, right? And the rules set out by the leader and perhaps the people around the leader saying, this is how we want you to comport yourselves as leadership candidates.

Corey 20:03

And then the candidate is supposed to say, oh, yes, absolutely, Rachel, for sure. That's how it's going to be. Of course, you're still the leader. Of course, I'm still a good team player. This sounds extremely scripted.

Corey 20:14

That's the theater we're all supposed to play in those moments. Here's the reality. You've got one person who's not holding a straight flush. They're holding a bunch of coasters. They're only leader in name at this point, right? And they are bluffing with somebody else and saying effectively, don't act in a way I don't want you to act. But the minute that there's this sense that the leader's gone, the dynamic is different. And people may decide to play it as though it's more cordial and friendly because that serves their benefit. They want to be seen as a team player. But that's because it serves their benefit at this point, right? The actual authority of leadership has shifted pretty significantly in these particular moments and things are going to happen. Things the leader said not to happen are going to happen. People who are told not to work on campaigns are going to work on campaigns. Leadership candidates told not to approach people are going to approach people. And that's the reality from this particular moment forward. And

Zain 21:07

And to be clear, you mean this moment now that it's public in this way? Or do you feel like this? I

Corey 21:14

I mean, from that

Zain 21:15

conversation on. Yeah, I hear you. Corey, I'm going to give you a fair shake, as I did to Carter on the core question here. If you are one of the three candidates named in this piece, good day for you, bad day for you, tough day for you. Give me your top line take. Or is it conditional, as I gave Carter that option as well?

Corey 21:33

Yeah, I think it's, I

Corey 21:36

I think it would be, let's put it this way. I don't think it's a good day. It would be a bad day if you weren't listed, right? So if you're in that caucus as well,

Corey 21:44

like, even if you're kind of in that lower paragraph where they're like, oh, and Samir Khayani is sort of looking at bad days. Well, he's

Zain 21:49

he's the one that's shadow running my campaign for Zane for Leader. He doesn't know it yet.

Corey 21:54

The stock. Yeah, no, I mean, so

Corey 21:57

so the reality is like getting like your picture, like the big three in caucus, you need to be, you don't need to be there. You don't need to be there. But that's

Corey 22:06

that's kind of where you want to be. Like if you're not even mentioned in that article, like if nobody even considers you serious enough to sort of have gotten to that point, that's a challenge for you. So it's not so much, this is a good day. It's this was not a bad day. for those three that's

Zain 22:20

that's interesting is there is there any part of you carter that when you see this this is kind of like a sigh of relief that like it's out there like and i'm i'm named and now that everyone knows i can just go do my thing like does today like and i and i don't want to so like to spend too much time on this because in many ways like folks have been talking about these names for a long time but i'm just kind of really wanted to dig in because this provides us a really interesting example of things that we've heard, the three of us individually, versus what now is reported, and if the public side actually fundamentally changes anything. And so one of the things I'm thinking of, Carter, is it as a sigh of relief being like, okay, I'm out there, I'm named, no reason to hide it, it's publicly open, let me just do my thing, run even harder. Or does it not give you that sort of particular sort of ammo or wind behind your back?

Carter 23:11

I don't think it's that definitive, because it's not like you can really change your behavior at this point right and and it's in part because the rules that the ndp brought in when they were in government you

Carter 23:21

you can't just start spending money on a leadership now you can't start hiring

Carter 23:25

hiring people and gearing up and getting ready to run a leadership um you mean like functionally like

Carter 23:32

so all you really have until such time as there's a declared vacancy in a campaign that's about to begin all you really have is the ability to very loosely start bringing bringing people onto your team without any, you know, resource revenues being raised. No, you know, I mean, you can start putting people together on a team and say, you know, when it's time to go, can you take a leave? Or, you know, I need you as a volunteer.

Carter 23:59

You know, you can start building your resources that way, but you're not going to be in a position where everything

Carter 24:05

everything changes overnight because your name was in a newspaper article. it's the same thing you were doing yesterday except you'd get to do it today and may you know maybe the circle of who you're talking to expands because you don't need to be quite

Carter 24:18

quite as worried that you're going to make the wrong phone call to the wrong person who's going to call the leader and say what the fuck is this person doing you know i can't even believe it that

Carter 24:27

that that could happen right now but i think that given given the way the leadership campaigns were organizing before this article, which I think both Corey and I had seen, and I think, Zane, you'd seen

Carter 24:42

evidence of up close, I

Carter 24:45

I don't think that anybody was particularly worried about pissing off the existing leader.

Zain 24:49

Corey, your take on this? The question was really like a sigh of relief for any sort of like, hey, now that it's out there, I can just do my thing.

Corey 24:58

Well, I think it is incremental. It doesn't fundamentally change, but it's big incremental, right it made things way more concrete steven talked about you're going to be reaching out to people and and maybe the tenor of those conversations change a bit but people will also now be reaching out to you they'll be sending you emails saying things like hey i saw you were mentioned as one of these candidates i just want you to know if you go for it you'd be great right you're going to have all of a sudden an entire different stream of activity going on and can i say the other thing about it in terms of like incremental march forward here is the

Corey 25:31

way the article was written and the way it talked about kind of these big three candidates in terms of caucus and then some other caucus people who might be looking at it almost in one paragraph a little bit later and oh by the way here's some external names that might interest you here right the interesting interesting thing about that too is there are also going to be people who look at that list and say well

Corey 25:52

well none of the above right like i'm not really excited about any of those and so this will also create what i will call and you see it in almost any leadership like the second wave of leadership, contemplation, where people start saying, hmm,

Corey 26:05

hmm, you know, maybe I could put my name in that race, too. Maybe I would be able to add something to this particular race. Maybe I would present a point of view that is not represented by the, you know, the names that I have seen in an article like this. Carter,

Zain 26:16

Carter, let's talk about the specifics here. So there's three individuals named, familiar to those who follow Alberta politics. You've got, of course, Raki Pancholi from Edmonton, who was first elected in 2019. You've got Sarah Hoffman, the former deputy premier, current deputy leader, former health minister. You've got Kathleen Ganley, the former justice minister, Ganley

Zain 26:42

Ganley from Calgary, notably, Racky and Sarah from Edmonton.

Zain 26:47

Carter, when you look at this, I'm just delaying the specifics of each one of them for a second.

Zain 26:52

Are you a believer that for the NDP to be successful in this race, the party, the institution to be successful in this race, that it needs certain things. And what I'm trying to get to is that what I'm really impressed with is that there's three women candidates wanting to be the next leader of the NDP. But in some ways, for the broadening of the tent, there's a school of thought that we have actively heard, and I want to test on this podcast, that this race needs other things. It needs an outsider, for example. It needs maybe a man to run, for example. It needs another candidate from Calgary. Are you a believer that in order for a race to be successful holistically, that the field needs to have different characters playing different roles, so to speak, to project something about the party? Or are you a believer that who gives a shit, it's only what comes out on the other end that matters? Give me your school of thought around this, even for this race, but also more broadly, because I think it's an interesting sort of examination of story and characters and role uh

Zain 27:47

so to speak in one in some way or not well

Carter 27:50

well the very first thing that they need is a race right so they need it to be an absolute battle um they need three four five really strong campaigns that have equal ability to raise money have equal ability to sell memberships have the capacity to generate media awareness media attention um even during you know know, dull,

Carter 28:15

dull, doldrum-y type spots of the year, where it may be, you know, like over the

Carter 28:20

the summer when it's hard to get attention or whatever the situation may be. But you need, you know, three, four, five campaigns that can really do a great job. That's the first thing that they need. Do they need those people to fit into certain categories or certain groupings? Yes, I'd like to see an outsider.

Carter 28:39

Yes, I would. I think that an outsider would enable us, you know, like that party gets defined differently when someone comes in from the outside. But I don't think they need an outsider like a no-name candidate that simply can't win. I think they need an outsider that fits into those five or six campaigns that can raise the money, that can speak to the media, that can generate interest. um and then they need to make they need a battle to ensue about

Carter 29:09

about what this party is is this the old

Carter 29:13

old ndp or if you will rachel notley's ndp um one could make a case that sarah hoffman will represent that um you

Carter 29:23

you know very well she you know she'll be representing a a uh a

Carter 29:28

a team or a point point of view that said you know we've got we formed government as the ndp under notley we we have uh the largest opposition in alberta history because of notley and we need to continue to build on that and then i think you should also be seeing a group of people who say you

Carter 29:44

you know we should have been government the fact that we weren't government is a giant failing and

Carter 29:49

and that would be a great

Carter 29:52

dialogue to have during this campaign but i'm not really into this you need a man to run type of uh thing i i think it would be helpful maybe if there was a a male candidate but i don't think that a male candidate is what they need what they need is an outsider who can who can really push the barriers and um you

Carter 30:13

you know outsider who who defines the field uh by really you know pushing these three frontline candidates uh to do a much better campaign cory

Zain 30:25

cory what's your what's What's your thought of, like, what I've broadly called characters and role and, like, that kind of help project success for the party?

Corey 30:36

you know, I got to say, so this is really common party thinking. People start saying, like, oh, do we have, like, what are we presenting with our list of candidates? And then they often will then take to a simplification of their candidates as well. Like, they become the Calgary candidate or, you know, the candidate who wasn't there the election before or something like that. By the

Zain 30:56

the way, this article

Zain 30:56

kind of, like, explains. It's like, you know, like,

Zain 31:00

outsider, which I don't think anyone would

Zain 31:02

for example. I mean,

Zain 31:04

don't even know if that's how she wants to position herself, or if it would be strategically advantageous for her. But to your point, Corey, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah.

Corey 31:10

Yeah. So this is like, and look, it's kind of human nature. They try to elevator pitch. They say, explain the candidate and the appeal in kind of one sentence or whatnot. Very common. I can't, I mean, I guess I would just say I've seen that go wrong so many times that everybody should stop and think about it a little bit. And I'll use Jagmeet Singh as the perfect example. example, Justin

Corey 31:30

Justin Trudeau was elected. He was the young guy. He was the dynamic. He was the exciting guy.

Corey 31:35

And so then the, in my opinion, the federal NDP went out and said, let's go find our version of them, right? The young, exciting upcomer. And that was classic fighting the last campaign stuff. And so when they simplify to that, they tend to also to go to that next logical step, which is, well, why did we lose last time? And so there's like the knee jerk, oh, not from Calgary. Boom. boom, all we need is a Calgary. No, well, that's not true. What you don't, it's not, that's like, that's one issue in one campaign that maybe mattered, maybe didn't.

Zain 32:04

didn't. In their defense, the math does not change in that sense, in the sense that they need growth in Calgary. But I hear you, I hear you.

Carter 32:10

But it's not like Samir's going to take them there. Right? Like, oh, what? Here we go. No, no, no, no. Zane via Samir,

Corey 32:16

Samir, that's just, that's fucking with gas. That's right. Yeah. The next election is not going to be the last election. And it's quite possible that you have an NDP candidate who can't afford to lose five seats in Edmonton that all of a sudden they're at risk because they're not like such a stranglehold on the scene, right? I get it, good point. Like, I just think my point is simply this, that oversimplification I think is very dangerous for a party and a party needs to sort of step back and say, what are we looking for in a leader? What are those fundamental leadership qualities we're looking for? What do we want our party to be? And that does sort of get me to what Stephen was talking about, which is this battle for the heart and soul of the Alberta NDP.

Corey 32:51

For me, that's the way more interesting component of all of this here right because there is something the ndp needs to do and they don't necessarily need to do it in the leadership campaign right they could do it after the leadership campaign they could tackle it with the new leader over the next couple of years but there is something the alberta ndp needs to do they

Corey 33:08

they need to split with the past and

Corey 33:10

and they need to split with the past in small ways and big ways and i'm not saying this is a judgment call and that they need to go left or right or anything like that but they need to become whatever they're going to be next not try to be what they they were last, because they will never be Rachel Notley's NDP as well as Rachel Notley could lead them that way. You

Zain 33:26

You know what, can we... So

Corey 33:27

So that is very important. Let's work together on this. I like that both of you brought

Zain 33:30

brought this up. Let's get specific on what I will call the swim lanes available to candidates. If you know what I'm trying to say. And because... Yeah, I know exactly what you're trying to say. Which is like Puritan, like federal NDP, copy, paste, that's one swim lane, right? That's where we need to go to. Everything that we've done to moderate ourselves or bring ourselves to the center under Notley's leadership, there's that. Help me define the swim lanes. I'm just giving you one example. Can we work together to define these lanes available? Because I think to Corey's point, we might be oversimplifying and conflating a few of them as well. And I think one of the conflations I saw in this article, which by the way, is a great article, is that Hoffman is like the back to old school NDP, but also Rachel Notley's pick. I think those are two separate things that, you know, that the Notley legacy can live on around many candidates. I could argue, one could argue. So Carter, I'm kind of curious if you have a sense of what these distinct swim lanes are, at least ideologically, for the NDP that are available to particular, you don't even have to assign candidates to each, but let's start here. And then I promise I will get to these specific individuals we

Carter 34:45

well i like that we're doing this without assigning it to the individual that's super important because the individual doesn't know what their campaign looks like yet there is no campaign from kathleen or or

Carter 34:55

or sarah or from rocky yet um

Carter 34:58

um they're they're still deciding on their own swim lanes they're they're talking to people and trying to figure it out so first thing i would go with is a very simple binary choice we are going to be the albertas you know So, Alberta, we're going to continue to represent the NDP, right? We are the new Democratic Party that is the old NDP, is what I'm going to call it, just for ease of use. And then I think that the other swimline is the new NDP, right? Like the new, new, new, new, new, new Democratic Party. Because the new, new would be a redefinition in some fashion of what the party actually looks like, how it appeals to people, what it is that we say in some sort of division so we're not that anymore we're this and i think that that would be the first question and then what does this look like is

Carter 35:49

is kind of the next level down okay so even if you're the old ndp how are you defining yourself i would assume you don't want to necessarily define yourself as the carbon tax ndp i would probably suggest if you're going going to be the old ndp you should probably kind of look back to some of the pam barrett days or some of the uh raj panu day carter

Zain 36:12

carter help me divide between just so we're clear and we're actually helping did the division here old

Zain 36:17

old to me is like classic ndp right like something like a copy paste of the federal side you've got the current and or not so yeah well i don't even yeah yeah no no okay Yeah,

Carter 36:28

Yeah, no, no. This

Zain 36:29

This gets weird in a hurry. No, this is a point.

Zain 36:32

This is about a

Carter 36:33

a new Democratic Party. Like, Rachel Notley, Rachel

Carter 36:37

Rachel Notley, in part because I think she was, you know, the daughter of the previous

Carter 36:43

previous Grant, you know, Grant Notley, or Grant Notley?

Zain 36:45

Notley? Yeah, yeah. Yes,

Carter 36:49

Never really mentioned him, to my recollection, and maybe I'm just misremembering, but.

Corey 36:55

You are, for sure, but keep going. No,

Carter 36:57

No, I'm not really. not on the campaign trails we

Carter 36:59

we never had a sense of you know the law he days um the the sense of where the party and her father was taking the party um you could go back to that you could go back to uh pam barrett's barnstorming days uh of lying in the um dentist chair and and seeing visions you could go you

Carter 37:22

you know there's a lot of different places you remember that cory's covering I do,

Corey 37:26

do, and I'm, yeah, okay. You

Carter 37:28

You know, but there's lots of New Democratic principles that this particular iteration

Carter 37:33

iteration of the New Democrats under Rachel Notley kind of walked away from, you

Carter 37:41

know, because she was going for a bigger slice of the pie. And there could be a really solid argument being made that she didn't take the piece of the pie. Okay, okay, okay. It was really there. That's about the

Carter 37:54

no, no. No, I'm saying, this is defining a fucking future. I'm pushing back on you.

Zain 38:02

I got a couple of things. I

Corey 38:03

I got an old

Zain 38:03

old and new. Corey, please add more definition. I

Corey 38:06

feel like that was three minutes. Okay.

Corey 38:08

No, I mean, I want to talk a little bit about this in the context of, like,

Corey 38:13

like, that's quite a caricature that you've just presented that absolutely nobody is going to run on. Can we give it the most charitable, honest, most likely to see read? Sure. Here's one for you. The NDP were most successful when they were the most like themselves. Rachel Notley was a great leader, but when the NDP were most like themselves in 2015, when the platform

Corey 38:33

wasn't muddied by these ideas of, we're going to try to win the Senate,

Corey 38:38

we just tried to do what was right in 2015. And we were following our conscience in 2015. And that's how we got government. How

Carter 38:44

How is that different than what I said? You know why we lost government?

Corey 38:46

government? We lost government when we played footsie with big oil. We lost government when we lost the way and we stopped caring about, you know, everyday Albertans. And we've got to get back there. No, you're talking about Pam Barrett and the gas. I'm talking about 2015 Rachel Notley's victory. Right? Like, come on, like, let's do the service of not doing caricatures of these particular swim lanes here. Right? Like, I think that's a reality. No,

Carter 39:08

No, but I was just simply saying there is an old New Democratic Party that has available to it the

Carter 39:13

the old solid brand. And I don't think it needs to be associated with the federal NDP. It is the new democratic ideals of the past. And you grab those and you jump on those and you say that's what's going to make it successful. The

Carter 39:27

other way is to say we're

Carter 39:29

we're going to do the forward-looking new New Democratic Party, something that is bigger and broader than

Zain 39:36

than what we've done. I want more definition. I want more definition of this. I like what Corey's put on the table. Carter, no offense to you. What

Zain 39:41

I said the same fucking thing. No, you did not. If you listen back to it, the words were weird. There was dentist talk. Oh, it's exactly the dentist thing

Carter 39:49

thing everybody understood. The dentist

Zain 39:52

dentist thing I for sure understood.

Carter 39:53

Is this a Patreon episode? this is

Zain 39:55

is not a patreon it's not no

Carter 39:56

no one understood that um

Zain 39:58

um okay which by the way um 8 p.m december 17th make sure you tell dave tell dave.ca uh cory i like

Zain 40:05

like 2015 ndp that's what like going back to the success of 2015 let's add that as lane one that's okay

Corey 40:11

okay what else do you want and can i say like that's actually not my personal view understood but i could see someone but but that's like let's be clear that they're not gonna sit there and be like well we were the shitty small version we got got to go back to the shitty small version like that's not the

Corey 40:24

anybody is going to

Zain 40:25

to use unless they're in it for like purity right

Zain 40:28

right they could be like you know wherever no no wherever it leads us we need to go back to core principles but to your point there is a model of core principles available that also was viable and successful 2015 ndp well

Corey 40:42

would argue that is not what 2015 was but people will argue that is and i

Zain 40:46

i know when you said that there's an argument on either

Zain 40:48

when you kind of introduced it you kind of added that that editorial comment I mean, I understood that wasn't from you, but you were making the case for it. Swim lane one. I like that. What other lanes are we adding? Carter's got new at the end, but I want to add more definition to what even new looks like. Swim lane two.

Corey 41:03

We're at our most successful when we're at our most inclusive. And that means being where Albertans are and listening to them and engaging with them and talking to them and caring about their issues and not getting so lost in the ideological purity of the past. Like, the job of the new Democrats is to make life better for people, and we do that by meeting them where they are. So you want to win elections, you got to be where the voters are. You fish where the fish are. And

Corey 41:27

And that requires us,

Corey 41:30

that requires, yeah, listen. I

Carter 41:32

I have to add more definition.

Carter 41:34

What is this, like the Olympics with two swimmers? He said this wasn't what it was, but it is, in fact. Okay,

Carter 41:41

Carter, have you ever been to a pool? There's more than two lanes. Listen, I'm just going to go, he's just taking it, he's just taking it one level below us. Carter goes,

Zain 41:47

goes, I don't know. I'm

Carter 41:48

I'm happy. That's what he asked me to

Carter 41:49

do. Normal slimmer. No, I'm happy. I'm asking. No, I said I was happy.

Zain 41:54

Jesus Christ, Carter. Okay. I'm

Carter 41:58

Fuck you all. I've got a headache.

Zain 42:03

2015 inclusive Big Tent. Can I call it Big Tent NDP?

Corey 42:08

Yeah. Okay. Can I suggest, I'm going to throw it out there and you're going to say that's great and you're going to go back to your swim lane thing. let's talk about a couple of different ways things can wedge here maybe as a start sure i'll call it old and new because there's a plan here old

Carter 42:20

old and new sounds good old

Corey 42:22

old and new left and right right

Corey 42:26

right insider outsider i don't know yeah you know there's but like i think that there are some other ways this thing splits down experience inexperience experience not inexperience but like kind of novelty yeah would be another one um

Corey 42:40

you can there's there's many like i mean

Carter 42:42

i get that you know

Carter 42:43

know um spendy or non-spendy uh you know there's a case to be made that when

Carter 42:49

when the ndp shows fiscal restraint the ndp doesn't do quite as well um and fiscal restraint we know the fiscal restraint is not necessarily rewarded

Carter 42:58

rewarded in the way that people say they they value it uh

Carter 43:02

uh in a poll versus the way that it actually is valued in politics you know People want better health care systems. They want better education systems. And they really don't care what the price is. Like the giant surpluses that you couldn't even answer the proper number on, Zane, don't actually win many votes.

Zain 43:24

Corey, I agree with you. The wedges, I think they're fascinating. And there's several more that we haven't considered. No, no, no. This is at some point I have to take over the show. or else we end up with old men yelling at clouds with a two-person swim meet. Carter, we've got two lanes. Corey, do you have a few more for me? Because I do want to get into how we kind of subdivide new a bit more, too. And I understand ideology isn't, like, the point you're trying to make, ideology isn't the only sort of track. I get it. Fair enough.

Corey 43:51

Well, and so another swim lane, you put it out there, Zane, is the idea of being kind of like the continuation candidate. You liked what you got with Rachel Notley. I'll do more of the same, right? Old.

Corey 44:03

Well, that's separate, right? That's current, Carter. I think that's different.

Corey 44:07

Yeah, because a lot of people who would like in that quote unquote old you presented would say Rachel Notley's not even old. Like the last two elections were Rachel Notley running a different playbook. Then 2015. But there's this continuity candidate that

Corey 44:19

that somebody is going to maybe try to seize for themselves and say, I am the Notley legacy, right? I'm the person who's going to go forward. Another one would be almost that like, I'll

Corey 44:28

I'll call it a blue new Democrat. And I actually think this one goes pretty well with another combination of insider and outsider, right? You have an outsider who says, you know, the

Corey 44:38

the NDP have a lot of great pieces and those great pieces are represented by the field, but they don't have the piece they need, which is kind of this idea that they can navigate downtown, you know, Calgary business just as easily as they can navigate the union halls. And both are important. But right now, the NDP doesn't have the bench strength on

Corey 44:57

on the business side, you know, on the economic side, on the fiscal side. And so I could easily see an outsider candidate trying to come in and saying, like, this is important. This is what the party needs to consider itself. Can I

Zain 45:08

I ask you a question? Because this is a decent definition. You got the 2015, you got the inclusivity, Big Ten, the continuity of what you got, right? We were so close. We need to stick with the plan, stick with the ideology, keep pushing, right? You know, the ground game, we rectify a few of our weaknesses. Now's not the time to change our strategy. You got the blue new Democrat. Carter?

Zain 45:29

Corey, you got one more? One more. Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna... I think it's an important one.

Corey 45:33

one. I might even be leading you here. Go ahead.

Corey 45:36

The apostate, the somebody who's on the inside and says, I would undo all of these things that we did. You know, I was there, I was part of the team, I supported us generally, but I think we were wrong on these four big issues. Why is that swim

Zain 45:49

lane important? I get why it's important. Why is it important to have the insider say that? Do they have credibility to actually say that? Either of you can jump on this. on this yeah

Corey 45:57

it's like the old joke of like um you know if you're drinking with your friend bob and your friend bob says there's no god you say oh bob's drunk bob's been drinking you're drinking with the pope and the pope says there's no god you say holy shit maybe there's no god right and and if you're talking about an insider who was there and has every reason to kind of support what happened and you know it's their record to stand up and say it it's a way for people to snap next. And when we talk about one of the things that the NDP need to do down the road is kind of define themselves differently from where they were in the past. Holy cow, is that a powerful way to do that? Interesting.

Corey 46:34

Right? Like if you're worried that you are just going to be painted as the continuation of Rachel Notley, and you know, for the electorate, you need to be known as something different. Being the apostate in a leadership contest is a pretty quick way to get yourself there. Hey,

Zain 46:46

Hey, Carter, as you talked about old and new, which by the way, you know, I make I think

Zain 46:49

is a helpful start to our framework. How new is new? How new can you go within the confines of a leadership race? And here's what I mean.

Zain 46:58

We have this group, the Alberta's Progressive Future. I apologize for bringing

Carter 47:02

bringing this up. the

Zain 47:02

the name change is the name change we gotta fundamentally rebrand is that like a swim lane one can run in in a leadership like when you look at all the way lane one lane eight can you go all the way to lane eight and be like we need that person in the race is that a that's like a different

Zain 47:22

that's the question though that that's actually i'm actually fundamentally asking that someone

Carter 47:25

someone could run in that or swim in that lane um they could say this This is where we're going to go, and this is how I'm going to campaign for it. But I think that they would lose because, as we've covered in the podcast ad

Carter 47:38

ad nauseum, that's actually not how you rebrand a party. A brand is bigger than a name, and the name, just changing it to, you know, the Corey Hogan Party, which, of course, I'm for. Me

Corey 47:51

Me too. Wouldn't. Makes a lot of sense. It makes

Carter 47:53

makes a lot of sense to me, Corey. It's

Carter 47:55

It's a winning brand. I think it's a great party name. name um but

Carter 47:58

but it just doesn't make it

Carter 48:00

doesn't make anything happen right it's not the the catalyst that finally you know changes the the election math so you know you you could see someone running on that path uh but you'd be far better off to be running on something like uh we need to be a more active party right like the reason that we lost in 2015 wasn't because of the oil situation it's It's because we let the oil situation be the only defining aspect of our government. Had we done all

Carter 48:29

all the things that we want, like create Canada's best health care system, create Canada's best education system, had we done those things, we would have won that election with Jim Prentiss because the questions wouldn't have been, you

Carter 48:44

you know, who's best to weather the economic storm. The questions would have been, who's best to protect the new democratic systems that we've brought in?

Zain 48:55

Just a reminder to everyone, Corey, I know we want to jump in here, but this is an episode brought to us by Flair Airlines. We also make nothing happen. Corey, you wanted to jump in here with your final take. And maybe at the 50-minute mark, we'll get to the three candidates that are listed.

Corey 49:10

There's also this question of being the competent candidate, right? Like the one who's just like really, really good at things here. It's funny, when I think back on, and

Corey 49:21

and people are going to do this, they're going to say, why did we lose in 2023? We just need that component, so let's get it, right? And when I think, why did we lose in 2019? We just need that component, let's get it.

Corey 49:33

That's where people are going to start, right? When they start crafting these plans. And when you say people,

Corey 49:38

people, you mean these candidates in

Corey 49:39

in these campaigns, just so you're clear. I mean, as much as anything, the next ring out, the people who are looking for a candidate and trying to determine what they need in order to be successful next time, right? So think about party elected executive and past candidates who are still quite involved in the party, stuff of that nature.

Corey 49:58

It's so natural to try to fight the last battle. We've already talked about this. I don't need to dwell on it. But people are going to look and say, in 2023, all we missed was blank.

Corey 50:08

Let's go find blank. And they're going to argue about what blank is, right? Some will say Calgary, some will say business, some will say purity of vision, you know, like this idea that we weren't ideologically like direct on this. Some will say we weren't mean enough or vicious enough, we need a real attack dog.

Corey 50:25

But they're going to define those and they're going to think about these things in terms of their most recent examples.

Zain 50:32

Let's talk about these three candidates, because I want to talk about them. Can I add one

Carter 50:36

one more thing before

Zain 50:37

before you do? Yeah, add one more thing. Let's talk about the three candidates, and then I've got a series of

Zain 50:42

-oriented questions I want to ask you and get your

Carter 50:44

your expertise on. Super important thing, based on my experience with Gondek, or not Gondek, Martha Hall Finley and Alison Redford, the idea is legitimacy. This is a legitimate campaign. This is a competent, you know, so Corey has talked about competence. I'm adding in, we have legitimate capacity. Oh, fuck. Okay, so I

Zain 51:06

wanted to go this at the end, but let's just do this right now. Oh,

Zain 51:09

Oh, okay. Talk to me about the campaigns then. This is agnostic of candidate. What do the campaigns need to look like around competency? Do they need to have people that are known to the party? Do they need to have, do they need to be public at this point? How do you create a legitimate campaign? Because I think Corey and I both smiled when he said Martha Hall Finley, because we both know how that campaign ended. Not

Carter 51:30

Not well. Yeah, we weren't competent. Both of you left and I was

Zain 51:34

was there. That is how it ended.

Carter 51:37

you'll also remember Greg Clark's campaign, right, where we created a really competent group of people. And that became one of the defining elements of the campaign. Now we still lost. um but you know one of the hallmarks of the campaign was look at this competent group of people that are around him and this means that he must be legitimate even though this isn't even really a party so

Carter 52:02

so you can see like that's

Carter 52:03

you were if you were running um so

Carter 52:06

so if you're not listed in this right if you're the next guy uh or the next person i should say because it looks like it's going to be mostly women um running which i think is great uh if you're the next person running you're

Carter 52:20

you're going to have to show that you're really legitimate on day one by having real organizers but keep in mind zane you asked do you need to be public now this isn't day one you need to organize and get ready so that day one when it happens in march or april you're

Carter 52:37

you're ready for that but you don't want you to be legitimate today because if you're legitimate today, you may not be legitimate in March or April.

Zain 52:46

Corey, let me ask you this question around campaign legitimacy. You know, one of my longstanding dreams, and I've talked about this publicly, is that there are so many talented folks that the three of us know, in particular, but like the friends that we have also know, and they are part of that group. Like there is a abundance of uniquely talented, interesting people that can fill a variety of functions. And my thought has always been, why does no campaign just go out and grab all of them? Like, you know, if they're available, why don't you just like literally create the all-star team, both sides, East, West, International, USA, do it all, put everyone in the same tent? Why the fuck is this not possible? Is that a sign of success? And I'm almost like deviating us from the topic. I know Carter's got takes on this. And Carter and

Corey 53:34

and I are obsessed about this

Corey 53:38

Carter wants to talk about it. He is pointing at himself in a way that can

Corey 53:43

only be described as...

Zain 53:44

as... Is there too much ego? Or do you end up being the Lakers with Karl Malone and Gary Payton? We've

Carter 53:49

We've seen this actual campaign. We saw this campaign when Gary Maher ran for the PC leadership. We saw this campaign when Jim Dinning ran for the leadership. I'm mentioning those two because they lost. lost, even though they didn't have like, they had paralysis. They had paralysis of analysis where everybody sat around the strategy table saying, we should go get the LGBTQ vote. But at that time, it was the gay vote, right? Like, it was... Thanks

Corey 54:22

Thanks for that color, Stephen.

Carter 54:23

It was ridiculous. I got a telephone call. Do

Zain 54:26

Do you want to just talk about what other groups were called back then we could also i got

Carter 54:29

got a telephone call from the dinning campaign can you get the gay vote and

Carter 54:36

and i'm like that's not the fucking way that votes work you idiots but here we are here we are and you know why okay they lost because they they had too many

Carter 54:46

pointy heads around the table too many all-stars i'm just trying to lean into your your

Zain 54:50

your statement about legitimacy one of the reasons you're yeah but you

Carter 54:52

you can't have them all

Zain 54:53

all uh and have

Carter 54:55

have them all No, there's always a hungry youngster who comes out of nowhere named Stephen Carter. No, named something else who just turns it on its head.

Zain 55:04

Always named Stephen Carter. Corey, the real question here is around what legitimacy looks like, right? To get the heart of Carter's question, which is how do you show strength as a campaign? Can you show too much? Can you collect too many people without any roles for them? Talk to me about your philosophy around this, around what legitimacy and strength looks like. More so than just indulging me, just go with your philosophy, what it is for you.

Corey 55:25

Yeah, so my personal view is that

Corey 55:28

that what campaigns need more than names, because actually, I think what's a little different between what you were talking about, what Stephen was talking about, if I could try to reconcile these, is Stephen was talking about all of the names being snatched up by a campaign. And Zane, you were talking about all of the people that you know that are just the best at these particular areas, and they're not necessarily the campaign names. but i

Corey 55:50

i think in either case it's not what's most important on a campaign what's most important on a campaign is a shared sense of mission you know where you will live and die and fight with each other against the other ones and uh you know a campaign that's where the people who are like the junior who came out of nowhere who just like you know is up until 2 a.m and has created a brand new database for the campaign or something that's where that stuff comes from it doesn't come from like the complex bureaucracies and one of the challenges of having too many for

Carter 56:19

for those wondering at home cory just kind of referenced himself that

Corey 56:22

that was always me yeah

Carter 56:23

yeah that was database that was cory overwrought

Zain 56:25

overwrought and unnecessary the cory hogan story yeah go ahead please back to you cory sorry

Corey 56:29

sorry but i'm serious like necessity

Corey 56:32

necessity is the mother of invention and if you have experts in every single one of your org chart boxes you're actually not going to be that innovative you're going to have have interesting kind of very traditional approaches to campaigning but but

Zain 56:44

but the question therein that i find interesting cory is that like at this junction when none of these candidates outside of some media commentary maybe thinking about it they haven't broadcasted to people what the swim lanes that that we not even just we've identified but even the cross sections that we've talked about old new left right all that sort of stuff they haven't really isn't that that loyalty and shared mission just to the person at this point cory so

Corey 57:08

so let me ask you this when you think back on the most recent leadership campaign in alberta which

Corey 57:13

which campaign do you think had the best organizers probably the taves campaign i'd imagine

Corey 57:19

yeah probably the most competent the most skilled which

Corey 57:22

which one do you think had the clearest sense of mission yeah yeah great point great

Carter 57:26

i would disagree with i mean i think that actually daniel smith had the best organizers we knew that that uh take back alberta was the stronger well

Corey 57:34

well listen they obviously had had the organizers with the best outcome i would i kind of meant in quotes or the best that's how i took it

Carter 57:43

i've never been a big fan of party insiders

Corey 57:46

the point would be you you can get a lot farther with no-name brand organizers who are really dedicated to a cause and everybody's on that same page than you can with the group that steven has described 20 people who are all like former campaign chairs and yeah Yeah, in 2001, they ran that for whoever they are. Yeah, they've got all

Corey 58:06

the credentials. And that's

Zain 58:07

that's not – yeah, I like that you reconcile their point. And I think there's such a fascinating conversation we should have at some point around when a campaign says no to certain talent who wants to be slotted at certain – No, but who wants to be slotted at certain places in the campaign hierarchy. Because ultimately, what we're talking about here is that you may take the smart, young, dedicated, mission-centric person versus the one being like, I've worked on 12 NDP campaigns across wherever. I've worked on 12 PC campaigns. We all know this person, right? They're the institutional memory. They've got half— It's actually you now, Zane. Yeah, you're the guy. Well, yeah. You

Carter 58:44

You and Brian Topp going across the country. Racking

Zain 58:46

Racking up the L's. That's what I do for campaigns, Corey. Barely win them when I'm supposed to win them by large numbers, and then rack up the L's when I can. Why'd you lose, Zane? Oh, man, it's such a complicated story that we will not be getting into. Carter, when

Zain 59:03

when a campaign says no, is an interesting topic. But we talked about campaign credibility.

Zain 59:08

There's another thing that I want to talk about around right now, because I've pushed the fact that we'll talk about these candidates. It's an hour, so we'll maybe do it after this.

Corey 59:18

Yeah, no, this is an all-timer, isn't it? No,

Zain 59:21

No, it might be an all-timer. I mean, if there was a bit—

Corey 59:23

bit— Do you guys know this is—go

Corey 59:25

is—go ahead. This is our 100th episode of the year. We wanted to

Zain 59:27

to mark that at the hour mark, but we were a little early. This

Zain 59:31

This is exciting. We should do something to celebrate that. Maybe we will. Okay.

Zain 59:37

Carter, beyond the people, beyond

Zain 59:39

beyond the individual campaigns, how would you organize right now? And

Zain 59:43

And would you organize? So I derailed you around my indulgence of like, let's rack up all the good people. Would you be racking up any people right now? Would you be relatively quiet? Are you after the money? Are you after the people? Is it time? Is it talent? Is it conviction? What are you racking up, right? When you're meeting folks and when you're out there, are you racking up your caucus colleagues? Is that your core? What buckets are you at the end of every week being like, I put a couple of things in this bucket, I put a couple... What are these buckets? it's help

Carter 1:00:16

help me yeah yeah bucket number one is going to be uh mla endorsements or mla support may not even be endorsements i'm not a big fan of endorsements personally i think i would much rather have mlas that say that they're going to actually organize rather than just simply put their name on a piece of paper and very few of them actually organize when you look at that the performance of, you know, endorse, you know, MLAs that endorse, they tend not to perform particularly well. But you certainly want them. So you're going to have a list of that, then you're going to have a list of key organizers, right? So who do we actually need to organize for us? You know, and an organizer is very different than lots

Carter 1:00:59

lots of other different types of campaigning, right? Like this is the person who, you

Carter 1:01:04

you know, do we have someone who can talk to this community do we have someone who can speak to that community um

Carter 1:01:08

um who where are our holes who do we need to find uh and and you're bringing them in uh who do we've got that that actually can manage the data side who have we got that can manage the uh

Carter 1:01:21

uh the public relations who's going to write the strategy can we write the strategy now so

Carter 1:01:26

so that even the actions that we're taking today

Carter 1:01:29

aren't off strategy even though our campaign's not going to start until you

Carter 1:01:32

you know six months from now hour, four months from now, or whenever it does finally take off. Those are the types of people that I'd be adding. And then, you know, keep in mind, leaderships are about one thing, selling memberships, getting them to vote, like it is not a, you know, it's not a media air war where we have to have our name mentioned x number of times. I mean, that may help. But that's not actually how you win a leadership, you win a leadership, simply by selling memberships. So you've got to bring in as many people as possible, as committed as possible to actually selling memberships.

Zain 1:02:07

Corey, walk me through your thinking right now, your philosophy around how you'd be organizing right now, the buckets that you might have in terms of what you're trying to do, how you're trying to do it.

Corey 1:02:17

Yeah, the Canadian army is set up, people make fun of it a lot, because we have so many generals, there was this joke in the 90s, we heard all this time, we had more generals than tanks right well that's because it's harder to train a general than it is to buy a tank at the end of the day and the canadian army is designed to rapidly expand in times of crisis or at least historically that's been the entire purpose of the way the whole army is set up why it's kind of got over inflated ranks and all of that because you want to be able to move fast when you got to move so you're trying to find your generals and your generals doesn't necessarily even just mean people i mean it kind of metaphorically like what are the things that you you can start working on now that take a long time to get that you don't want to start working on the first day of the campaign so that's things like lists that is things like key organizers that's things like campaign collateral that is for sure the strategy that steven's talking about and that should precede basically all of that because it will dictate the things that you need to get to be successful in your kind of theory of the campaign as steven often puts it and i really like the way steven puts it theory of the campaign is a useful way to think about these these things um but yeah like ultimately also you do need to realize that these are means to an end and you can talk about kind of a bigger more moral end of you know we want to fix alberta we want to have the best opposition but the the end for this contest is memberships is votes air war is a means to an end media is a means to an end likes on your fucking fake facebook post

Corey 1:03:49

means to an end they don't mean anything if they're not selling memberships so what are you doing to create the infrastructure that allows you to sell those memberships at volume at scale

Zain 1:04:00

yeah and i think i think a good i mean one of the best leadership campaign sort of case studies that we have seen is the peer polyeth right we were always talking about well the rallies lead to memberships they fucking did right like they were they really led to a crushing in some real way and And they created an infrastructure there that I think – But it was also brand positioning. Like it wasn't just the

Corey 1:04:22

was a perfect alignment of strategy and action,

Zain 1:04:24

action, right? Yes. No, I agree completely. From a pure political practitioner perspective, I think that was a case – like I said, a case study that folks should study even on some of the more cynical things around like just outright data collection and then trying to convert that. Do you know – Yeah,

Corey 1:04:39

Yeah, go ahead. Actually, I want to – actually, that's a perfect thing to kind of cast people's eyes back to at this point. you will recall you will both recall he didn't

Corey 1:04:47

didn't even have a fucking website he had a list of links where you could kind of access other social media make a donation all of that because what he determined was these are the things that sell memberships you know not some billboard i spend a bunch of time and money on that i put up uh you know and i'm sure they eventually got there but for the major membership driving parts of the campaigns his focus was

Corey 1:05:09

was on the things

Corey 1:05:09

things that That actually drove

Zain 1:05:10

drove brand and membership. Corey, it was a poorly, it was not the quality of video we see from Pierre today. It was a poorly lit boardroom video announcement where the left side of his face wasn't even like lit. They were just figuring their shit out, right? And it was a Google form.

Zain 1:05:28

Like that was, that's what they launched their campaign. Like

Corey 1:05:30

Like I'm like 95% certain. Google form, by the way. 95% certain. That's how Dave Cornway is collecting the votes, you know, for best political play. So before 8 p.m. on Sunday, December 17th, make sure you go and you vote for the strategist winning best political play. Great

Zain 1:05:46

plug, Corey. Well, well-timed. Well-timed.

Zain 1:05:51

Carter, let's talk about the three candidates. Let's do it through the frame of opportunity and risk. And then I want to close out on rules. So we might be here for an all

Zain 1:05:59

all-timer, Corey. We might be

Corey 1:06:00

be here for an all-timer.

Zain 1:06:00

Let's start with Rocky Pancholi.

Zain 1:06:03

Opportunity, risk, Corey, I'll ask you the same. And then at the end, I actually want to ask you so you guys can have a bit of a preview around how you would frame each of the three frontrunners. I put that in quotes, those that are named. How would you frame their candidacy? Opportunity for Rocky's campaign, risks for her campaign. Carter, you start. Corey, you jump in. I

Carter 1:06:22

I think that Rocky's a really interesting candidate because she's seen to be an Edmontonian, an Edmonton candidate, but she

Carter 1:06:30

she did a tremendous amount of work down in Calgary. And when you talk to people in Calgary about who they actually met with from the NDP caucus prior to the 2023 election, so

Carter 1:06:46

many people will mention Rocky. I mean, she was carrying a tremendous load on the Calgary burden and

Carter 1:06:54

she carried it very, very well. I think that her opportunity is to be, sure, a candidate that's from Edmonton that can hold the seats in Edmonton. But her real opportunity is to to win seats in Calgary by being a fresh new face that wasn't part of the older establishment, you know, the older government. And that gives her the opportunity to criticize

Carter 1:07:13

criticize and to take different positions than what Rachel Notley did and to take bolder positions.

Carter 1:07:20

You know, bold will be in the eye of the beholder. But I think that she she should be a candidate that defines herself using a bold color scheme, using bold ideas, using bold structures. She will be memorable. She is an excellent public speaker. I think that all of those things could be worked to her advantage. And I think the success overarchingly will depend on her boldness

Carter 1:07:46

boldness as she runs through the campaign.

Zain 1:07:50

Carter, here's what we're doing. We're doing opportunities. We're doing risks.

Carter 1:07:54

Oh, for all of them? Yeah,

Zain 1:07:55

Yeah, for all of them. And then we're going to do like, I'm going to get you guys to work together to kind of give me spit out your pitch for each. So this concept of swim lanes that we discussed, it could be one of those swim lanes. It could be left, right. It could be old, young. It could be flashy campaign, not so flashy campaign. But Corey, Carter's put out opportunities. Add to opportunities. Get me started with risk. And then let's mold it into the pitch for each of these candidates. Let's leave on that particular note with each of them.

Corey 1:08:24

yeah look i i mean i think she's really fucking talented and really affable she also has an opportunity in that she wasn't part of the ndp government that's also a risk right she wasn't there for the 2015 to 2019 time but potentially it's a good way to frame things uh going forward there um and i'm gonna sound something that might sound shittier than i mean it to the other Another opportunity for her is she clearly could have a better job than this particular job, right? And that's not always true of a lot of the other candidates that are there. So I think that affords herself some opportunities on kind of the economic, what I will loosely call, for lack of any other phrasing, like kind of economic New Democrat, blue New Democrat is available here. her big risks are two in my opinion you know there's like two and a half if you want to count the fact that she worked for laurie blake but against her i i don't and i think you can kind of work around that frankly listen god i was the executive director of the alberta liberal party i have a lot of sympathy for you know how opposition was organized that's

Carter 1:09:26

that's some baggage hey that's like impossible baggage holy shit yeah

Corey 1:09:33

if it becomes a we need a non-edmontonian candidate or we need a Calgary candidate, that's a risk for her, right? If that becomes how simple the conversation is. I also think the risk for her is that she gets lost and she loses in a get-along club election where everybody is just sort of talking about how great each other are and how we all love each other and we all believe the same things. Because at that point, then all of a sudden you start saying, well, who's got the experience? Is it Sarah? Not only does she have 15 to present with the NDP, not only was she deputy premier, but she was on the school board, right? Well, was it Kathleen? Kathleen was justice minister. She was there 2015 to 2019. Maybe it's her turn if you want to do that. And a combination of these risks become

Corey 1:10:16

a problem. So I think in a funny way, she needs the election to be a little bit chippier, because A, that allows her to show how talented she is, right? She can really kind of put the the screws to some people. B, it allows her to define a difference that I think would be useful both with an electorate, you know, locally and more generally. But C, it avoids the get-along club problem. Because if everybody agrees, and if it's just everybody loves each other, then it becomes who's next. And she is not the natural who's next. And

Zain 1:10:45

And we've seen robust political parties fall into that trap as well. This is not just a slight on the NDP as like a more progressive leftist institution, like that the super best friends Friends Club ends up being like a who's next in line, right? Hillary Clinton, etc. We've seen this with the Democrats in the States, like the highest political orders that we've seen. Really interesting thoughts. Carter, do you want to add anything else to risk that Rocky may find? And then let's mold a pitch for her in terms of how she should present herself as part of this leadership race. i

Carter 1:11:15

think that she might may be dismissed um you know and this is totally unfair but people people are relatively shallow um they she could be very easily dismissed as you know kind of just another pretty face and i think that that would be rather uh first of all very shallow of people she's got a depth that is is really easy to see and and if and if people open their ears um but she could walk into certain problems and her legitimacy discussion of her uh

Carter 1:11:50

you know the way to avoid it a is to make it chippy and b to make sure that she's always got a position she knows exactly what she's talking about and to her credit to this point she has been that type of a person yeah

Corey 1:12:04

yeah Yeah, well, and like me, she, like the liberal thing, like me, she also suffers from being in her 40s and looking like she's in her 20s.

Carter 1:12:12

She's so much like you.

Carter 1:12:14

Like, I actually think of you every time I think of Racky. Likewise. I'm like,

Zain 1:12:18

like, oh, my God, is that Corey? Are

Carter 1:12:19

Are they the same person? Oh, my God, it

Zain 1:12:21

it is Corey. Yeah. Have you ever seen us in the same room?

Zain 1:12:25

Five foot five, they're exactly the same. It's just the same person. Oh, my goodness. On the other hand, she's super nice to me. I stuck a nerve. You're kind of a prick.

Zain 1:12:32

So there you go. Well, okay, put

Zain 1:12:34

put a pitch together

Corey 1:12:35

together for me. That's true. That

Zain 1:12:36

That is a good distinction. We have these swim lanes, 2015, inclusive, continuity, the blue new Democrat, the insider to undo all the changes. We also got all the other core, you call them wedges, but I'd kind of call them other intersections that you can choose. Start defining the Racky Pancholi pitch for me. Put it together for me. What are we picking? What are we leaving behind? Let's work together and let's yes and this a bit.

Corey 1:13:02

these are always so tough because and i'm

Corey 1:13:05

asking you to do this in the hypothetical

Zain 1:13:06

hypothetical of a hypothetical yes for

Corey 1:13:08

for sure and you're always kind of working with like the pieces that you yourself have put on the table the

Corey 1:13:13

instinct is to immediately jump to taglines you've got to kind of fight through that but i'm not going to right now i'm going to say in many ways it's kind of this notion of fulfilling the promise here the ndp has changed this is the natural next step on that change And also implicit in that is like, we want to get back to government, and we're just missing a couple of pieces here. So I think her argument becomes more, she brings the pieces the others don't bring, which again, goes to the idea of kind of creating some separation or difference or distinction.

Corey 1:13:42

Carter, it's so incomplete, though, Carter, you got thoughts? No,

Carter 1:13:45

No, I think that it's about being different. And I think that that difference is going to be put in through boldness.

Carter 1:13:51

So how different and how bold can she be? Because to me, that's the entire opportunity

Carter 1:13:58

opportunity that exists for Racky. She needs to be bold, because that will get her attention in Calgary. Okay,

Zain 1:14:05

Okay, Corey, so Carter says bold. You kind of said how tough this is. More left, more right, coattails of notly continuation. Like, which of these lanes is she hunting down? Add more texture to this pitch. pitch?

Corey 1:14:21

Look, if you are of the three candidates, the least likely to be able to say continuity is the thing that you can bring, you're the candidate who's least likely to be able to say the experience is something they bring, then yeah, you've got to put some different ideas on the table there. Or you've just got to show that your game is way above theirs and make it about those kind of competency issues. But that is tough to do in a leadership contest. It's not as though a lot of people you're selling memberships to will have even seen you debate your candidates or anything like that yeah

Corey 1:14:50

you need a story that you can tell that you can bundle that somebody in an elevator pitch could understand okay but why not kathleen okay but why not sarah and you have to say you

Corey 1:15:01

you know racky would do this sarah would not kathleen would not and it's got to be something that's somewhat compelling to people here and um and yeah i think you do want to sort of explore that space around what i will call the

Corey 1:15:14

the quote-unquote center it's this idea of you know yeah this is a woman who was a lawyer at the top of her game, who could walk in those circles, has those connections, can also, by the way, and we haven't talked about ethnicity at this point yet, but is a racialized minority as opposed to the other two we've talked about, and can help build the party within those communities, which we know is an area of growth for the NDP. And it's where kind of the core and the heart and the future success of the NDP will come from. So you got to look at how you're different and how your differences may support your story. It's

Zain 1:15:46

It's an interesting point. We've We've talked about this in the past around like, I think we did a full episode on it around like how you sell depth through charisma as well. This X factor, we talked about it through particular candidates where there is like an attractiveness to their candidacy. You can't necessarily explain it, but how do you package that up? How do you bottle it? How do you sell it? Carter, you talk about boldness. I think that's really interesting. Okay, let's, Corey, jump on this and then if you want to, and then I'm going to move to Kathleen Ganley, the former justice minister, the MLA from Calgary.

Corey 1:16:17

I just want to underline the importance of being different in a race, especially in the NDP, where everybody's going to want to try to be the same. I always think about campaign launches in the general sense, because the problem is when I start thinking about what specific individual, specific campaign launches look like, I

Corey 1:16:36

I often forget, unless they were a train wreck, right? Unless there was something really bad that occurred at them here. There's one I always remember. is

Corey 1:16:43

is one i always remember and it was bernie sanders announcing that he was running for president in 2016 because he literally just walked out of a congressional office building not even like the main yeah congress and he stood on a patch of grass with a bunch of reporters and he's like i'm running for president and then he went back to work and it was it was not what everybody else was doing right it was and that you got to keep in mind 2016 was a million campaign launches because the republican field was huge everybody

Corey 1:17:15

else is doing big splashy sometimes you go small yeah

Corey 1:17:19

if everybody else is doing small you go big splashy be different carter

Zain 1:17:23

carter kathleen ganley opportunities risk and and i'll go to cory for that and then we'll package up a pitch for her well

Carter 1:17:28

well i think that you know i think that she was very fortunate to kind of be listed in the same you know uh uh, at

Carter 1:17:35

at the same level as Rocky and, and Kath, uh, and, um, Sarah,

Carter 1:17:39

Sarah, because it's very easy to kind of overlook, uh, Kathleen. She, she doesn't have the same social media presence. She doesn't have the same kind of awareness from, uh, the caucus in the media. She's, she's

Carter 1:17:55

she's an introvert. She's kind of someone who's exceptionally capable, uh, at the policy level, but maybe not at the public level and that gives her uh

Carter 1:18:08

uh a different challenge than than uh than rocky and um and sarah so i i would think that if you were running her

Carter 1:18:17

her campaign you'd want her to be seen as really you know like this was a great day being listed in the same day in the same level but

Carter 1:18:25

but this whole conversation that needs to be about competence right competence competence competence you're going to be the heir apparent to Rachel Notley's competence, while not necessarily being the heir apparent to Rachel Notley's policies. I think that she could take a whole bunch of different Calgary style entrepreneurial type of positions, you know, you know, the Calgary School of Economics, the Calgary School of Political Science, right? Business matters, having a job matters um you could take those types of positions uh and then just kind of slap onto it the um and i get it done because that's my whole thing i'm i'm just you

Carter 1:19:07

you know i'm kathleen ganley you may not remember my name but you'll remember my actions because they're all about competence carter

Zain 1:19:14

carter are you suggesting leaning into that branding that last line you said in terms of lowering the bar and leaning okay interesting i will get to that in a second cory add to opportunities add to risk card. I'll give you a fair shake at risks and then we'll start putting

Zain 1:19:26

putting the pitch together.

Corey 1:19:27

Well, let me start with risks, right?

Corey 1:19:30

She could for sure get stuck in the middle of that field of three on a lot of the different ways that they're cut. So when you talk about experience, for example, you're

Corey 1:19:39

you're probably going to go with Sarah Hoffman if that's your determinant, right? If you're talking about kind of like outsider, you're probably going to go with Raggi if that's your determinant. And so you're kind of in the middle here. And the other challenge you have is she might in some ways come off especially on paper especially from a distance as the most generic or the most like rachel i actually don't even mean generic i mean the most like rachel right

Corey 1:20:00

like policy wonk lawyer you know strong female but you know that that we've seen that show and people might say well maybe we need a different show here the other things i would say from a risk point of view is that of the three and

Corey 1:20:13

and listen the other two i i think are just really s-tier retail politicians you know sarah hoffman will remember every detail about everybody in your life when you meet with her no matter who you are to her in her life she'll be like how's your dad i ran into this person you're doing that person right phenomenal retail politician maybe even on that kind of interpersonal relationship thing the best in the ndp the best the ndp has to offer we'll get to her kind of opportunities later though you

Corey 1:20:43

that is not kathleen you That is just not her strong suit. And so she is kind of the policy wonk rather than the retail politician. Now that policy depth is an opportunity, that competence is an opportunity, and obviously the biggest opportunity she has, Calgary.

Corey 1:20:59

It's what so much of the conversations to date have rotated around. And people are thinking about Calgary and how they take that next step in the biggest city in the province and what that could potentially mean for the NDP's chances in the next election.

Zain 1:21:14

Carter, anything to add to risks or should we start patch packaging the pitch together?

Carter 1:21:19

I think that there's a risk that she could be perceived as boring.

Carter 1:21:23

um, I like Kathleen. I know we we've run into her a whole bunch of times and, uh,

Carter 1:21:29

uh, I've loved chatting with her. I think she's a really nice person, but she's

Carter 1:21:32

she's an introvert and it's hard for her, I think, to, um,

Carter 1:21:38

to gain attention and hold attention. It's not her natural state of being. So So she's going to need to figure out how to get past that impediment.

Zain 1:21:48

let's put the pitch together. Carter, you want to start? Corey, you want to start? Who wants to start putting it together?

Corey 1:21:53

Corey? Yeah, I'll start with the obvious. If you're her, and if you're going to be seen as like Rachel to begin with, there is a bit of a draft you can take from that, like drafting behind her kind of thing.

Corey 1:22:04

You can go with ready for the job day one, right? I was the justice minister. I am competent Calgary lawyer, get stuff done. You're not going to miss a beat. This is going to be exactly the NDP as you knew it before, except with a Calgary leader. And actually, you know what?

Corey 1:22:20

That's a pretty fucking compelling framing, given that the NDP barely lost last election.

Carter 1:22:26

The whole election spun on 2,600 votes. And if I was the leader, we would have had 10,000 extra. We

Carter 1:22:35

We would be the government right now.

Carter 1:22:37

Because Rachel Notley's ideas aren't the problem. rachel notley's inability to play in calgary is the problem so

Carter 1:22:43

so now we just need to i will

Carter 1:22:45

jump in here and do do calgary great

Corey 1:22:47

great i think it's a really killer framing for her i

Corey 1:22:50

i do think this is a perfect example of fighting the last battle but i think that could work the people you're selling memberships to yeah it'll work for them like is it a successful strategy for the next election absolutely not i don't know but i think it could be for this leadership that is interesting and

Corey 1:23:05

and And it's like almost a less

Zain 1:23:06

It's a less is more

Zain 1:23:07

clarity of vision to Corey's earlier point, right? It's not adding all the other bells and whistles. And if you need me to be this, I can be that. And if we run into this jam, I've got these skills. And if you, it's, we're so close. I'm from Calgary. Let's not like,

Corey 1:23:23

like, you know. It's the Calgary Rachel is your framing, frankly.

Zain 1:23:27

Nice. I like this. I don't think we need to say more on this. Sarah Hoffman. Corey, I'm going to start with you on this. Give me the start on opportunities. and risks for Sarah Hoffman. This is, of course, as we'd mentioned, the Deputy Premier, current Deputy Leader from Edmonton, former School Board Chair.

Corey 1:23:46

If you're assessing her, if you're helping her

Zain 1:23:47

her team right now, opportunities, risks, get me started.

Corey 1:23:51

Yeah, I already talked about one of the opportunities being the retail politics. I mean, Jess, she is one of these politicians I think is so funny because I believe, especially around 2018, 2019, where she served a bit of a role as an attack dog, you know, going out and making the critiques of the UCP.

Corey 1:24:09

There was probably no politician in the province, there was a bigger disconnect between who she was perceived as and who I actually felt she was, because she came off as an asshole. And she is literally the nicest person in the NDP caucus most of the time, right? Down to that human level that I'm talking about. Like I mean, in like a true human level, I don't mean she's always always going to agree with you politically or anything like that but seems to truly legitimately care about people in a way that still should matter in politics there so i want to say that i also think that she has an opportunity though that becomes a risk very quickly and that is kind of experience with the use with the ndp you know with her past in the school board all of that

Corey 1:24:51

a record is a blessing and a curse when you are the right hand of rachel notley it is a blessing and a curse there are times sarah hoffman was listened to over literally the rest of the caucus you know maybe literally is an exaggeration but almost the rest of the caucus it's not

Carter 1:25:07

not really when you think of some of the and i will tell

Corey 1:25:09

tell you this i've

Corey 1:25:11

i've heard about it from a lot of the members of that caucus and there's kind of a bitterness about that there's some antipathy and she has kind of been perceived by a lot of her peers as kind of the privileged special child within the NDP caucus. And even this column by Markasoff sort of hints at that and says, you know, it seems like Rachel might prefer somebody like Sarah. I don't know if that's true. I can tell you this, though. Everybody thinks it's true. And that's a problem. That's a problem for Sarah, especially if it becomes more about what do we need that's different? And

Corey 1:25:44

And what could we expect that's different if this election goes forward? Carter,

Zain 1:25:49

Carter, opportunities, risk, add to what Corey's put on the table, and then we'll do the same. We'll put a pitch together.

Carter 1:25:54

I think the primary opportunity is that everybody's going to see her as the frontrunner. I think actually the phrasing or the framing that was put forward by Markasoff really didn't give Sarah credit enough for her organizational chops and her hold on the party as it currently exists. Oh, organization

Carter 1:26:14

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that if this was written by CBC Edmonton, it's going to have a totally different tone and tenor. CBC Edmonton would be looking at Sarah Hoffman as the favorite almost. Not just the favorite of Rachel Notley, but the favorite in this race. She's just a very strong organizer. She's exceptionally well known in the city of Edmonton. and more far more so than than raki or kathleen to this point so her opportunity is just to be the front runner right to be in charge to be the person who's winning on day one um i know that sometimes front runners get overtaken by the end uh but

Carter 1:26:59

but i tell you there's a lot of times you'd rather be a front runner than than someone who's you know losing so i i think that that's

Carter 1:27:08

that's ultimately going to matter as this all unfolds carter

Zain 1:27:12

carter you want to you want to get started on her on her pitch

Corey 1:27:14

pitch her candidacy pitch if you were if you're helping crap

Corey 1:27:16

just say before he does like those he's right about those connections and this is about selling memberships don't discount it but you know those connections are a blessing and a curse

Corey 1:27:26

it's like any bad action movie those kinds of human connections are anchors you know it becomes a bit of a challenge for you to move out of any kind of orthodoxy when you are so deeply embedded And you're so connected to the organization as it exists. So, well, I think on net, it's probably a benefit to her. Like, let's not pretend there's not a downside. It's really tough to move against the establishment, even when you know you need to, if you are the establishment, if you are so deeply embedded into the establishment. Good

Zain 1:27:54

Good points for both of you. Carter, you want to get us started on on crafting the pitch for Sarah Hoffman to members? members?

Carter 1:28:02

Yeah, I mean, I think that the primary pitch goes something along the lines of we don't need significant change. What we need is to continue to build on what we've got. And building from

Carter 1:28:13

from where we were is not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You know, if these

Carter 1:28:20

these other kind of nouveau kind of New Democrats win, we're going to be walking away from that, which makes the New Democrats the power that they are today in Alberta.

Carter 1:28:33

you know, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let's double down on that, which is currently working.

Carter 1:28:41

know, Rachel Notley got us to here. Let's not throw

Carter 1:28:45

throw that away, just hoping that someone's going to be able to get us further.

Zain 1:28:49

you like what you hear from Carter?

Corey 1:28:51

No, I mean, I don't, but I don't hold it against him. As we were sitting here, I actually think Sarah's framing is the hardest to sort of understand what it would be here. Because when we look at her strengths, when we look at the opportunities that he and I kind of just talked about, when we look at the risks, yeah, it

Corey 1:29:09

it suggests a status quo candidate. It suggests a type of candidate whose messaging is so severely not compelling in a general election. I mean, I think that's the big problem here, right? Because you're going to get on, yeah, I've always been there for you, you know, I'm Sarah, it's my turn, almost, you know, that's- But that's not a weak piece. That's the hardest- Gary

Corey 1:29:30

It's not weak at all, but- Gary

Carter 1:29:30

Gary Maher did it, almost won, you

Corey 1:29:34

it's really tough it's really tough to make the pivot after that because there'll be senses of betrayal if you make some moves and when we talk about that fundamental thing that they need it's

Corey 1:29:44

it's change right it's the ability to communicate the change

Zain 1:29:46

change it's interesting what you've said cory both of you said because electability hasn't necessarily come up in any of the pitches so far

Carter 1:29:54

well we kind of

Corey 1:29:55

of did it has implicit yes it has but this is her this is her problem because Because, you

Corey 1:30:01

you know, we talked about Kathleen saying Calgary Rachel. Yes. Rachel almost won. Calgary Rachel. You talk

Zain 1:30:06

talk about Rocky's optionality, her sort of like inside-out side. Exactly.

Zain 1:30:09

Exactly. I get it.

Corey 1:30:12

What is Sarah's version of that? Like, oh, I can bring that missing piece that we didn't have in 2023.

Corey 1:30:18

What is that? I don't know the answer. So you said

Zain 1:30:20

said earlier that there's like almost a reactionary impulse that if we lost out on Calgary, that that's the hole that needs to be filled. So the way I'd frame the question is, what of these pieces, left, right, ideology, swim lane, big tent, small tent, like insider that wants to undo all the things, Corey, a swim lane you brought up, which of these sort of pieces, how would you define the missing piece? Because you can't define it as Calgary. You can't define it as further right. At least, I don't think you can if you're Sarah Hoffman. How would you start looking at all the pieces on the board and say, you know what, I'm going to grab this one, and I'm going to try my fucking best to make the race about this?

Corey 1:31:00

But, you know, that is what's so interesting about it and why I don't hold the bad framing against Steven. Hey,

Carter 1:31:05

Hey, it wasn't bad. I don't really know.

Corey 1:31:07

Hmm. It was fine. And actually, it might even be enough to win. That's my

Carter 1:31:11

my point with her.

Corey 1:31:14

if you want to talk about the next step, right? And look, campaigns

Corey 1:31:18

campaigns shouldn't make the mistake of thinking about the next step. But there

Corey 1:31:21

there is kind of a question of electability. This brings into question here, right? Like, why Sarah? You'd

Corey 1:31:26

the last- What is Sarah

Zain 1:31:27

Sarah going to do differently? You'd argue the 2020 Democratic race was all – you had excitement across Sanders and Buttigieg and Kamala Harris, but it all came about who could beat Trump. It

Zain 1:31:37

It was a pure – and I hearken back on that for the very simple reason that the ballot box question of this race might in some way, shape, or form be around viability, right? To your point. So it's – Very

Corey 1:31:50

Very well said. So for

Zain 1:31:51

for you to say you shouldn't think about the next step, in many cases, it might very rapidly become the immediate step, depending on the will of the membership and the initial framing. Well,

Corey 1:32:00

Well, and let's be clear. If there are two other candidates, if they have brains in their head and both of them are super smart, they

Corey 1:32:06

they are going to push this, right? Like, electability has to be. You think most outsiders are going to if they enter the race? 100%, right? And so they're going to say, how does this bring us to victory? How does this take us to the next step? Sarah Hoffman already

Carter 1:32:20

had the reins of power when making these decisions.

Carter 1:32:25

you know, why would we give them back to her? Well,

Zain 1:32:28

Well, I mean, this is what's interesting to me, right? Like, let's try to get our best version of this. Like, we've got time, clearly. Whispers may not, but we do.

Zain 1:32:41

So could you play the insider who wants to undo all the things while still getting the halo of Rachel?

Carter 1:32:49

that's too much of a pretzel right yeah

Carter 1:32:51

yeah i mean you're building too many times

Corey 1:32:54

she can't maybe somebody could i don't think she's there okay

Corey 1:32:57

okay so that's not on the

Zain 1:32:58

that's not there for you blue new democrat is out party change name change person you guys said that's a different race inclusivity

Zain 1:33:04

inclusivity big big could she run against type carter and i ask you particularly because this is your your favorite strategy do something that people don't expect of you right when they think of sarah hoffman they think of someone who's been there a long long time and someone who's going to probably make the party smaller rather than larger. Could she somehow be the big tent person with the core sort of roots? I'm just putting these out there as thoughts to kickstart putting this together. We're supposed to be trained professionals. So let's help Sarah Hoffman on this. And arguably, I'm sure her team will come up with something good. But like, you know, we're- For sure.

Carter 1:33:40

I'm not sure that's the path to victory, though. Like, if she has to go that way, is she winning?

Carter 1:33:45

You know, if she has to be- Keep going. if she has to be in someone like it's it's kind of like what they're doing right now with the whole uh opposing the uh tax increase on uh oil and gas that's going to be coming in right yeah

Carter 1:33:59

yeah i missed this you

Zain 1:34:00

you guys were talking about i missed this completely yeah

Carter 1:34:01

yeah so so the oil and gas um

Carter 1:34:04

um tax or so the the the tax on uh fuel that was reduced and eliminated last year you know as part of an election ploy on affordability uh is coming back and the

Carter 1:34:18

new democrats are like how could they do this and i'm like what the fuck man like you're

Carter 1:34:23

you're for the carbon tax the carbon tax is about pricing slowing down the consumption of of you

Carter 1:34:31

carbon intensive fuels and now you're you're on both sides of this issue at the same time like it's not true to the the brand so if this is going to be successful um if sarah hoffman's going to be successful she has to be true to the sarah hoffman brand and sadly for her or good for her the sarah hoffman brand is tied up in rachel notley like big time tied up there

Zain 1:34:57

there is something to be said about like the brute like that she will not win on an air war that'll just be brute force retail tail she probably

Carter 1:35:04

probably got 60 of the existing membership right off the bat right well

Carter 1:35:08

well which she knows them all to cory's point she can call them all tomorrow and

Carter 1:35:13

and and win them all over

Carter 1:35:16

know because she well knows their names she has their addresses she can send chris she can do all the work that's

Carter 1:35:23

that's right there let's talk

Corey 1:35:25

talk about the things that she has

Corey 1:35:28

that the other candidate or like not that they don't have it especially because the first on my list is compassion but the things that she's known for right like that retail politician knowing everybody maybe that's your brand right maybe you go in and you're like this is i

Corey 1:35:43

i i'm running because i i need an alberta new democratic party that's there for people let me tell you my personal story let me tell you about the times the government wasn't there for me and i don't need the government to run my life but when there's nobody else in my life i need i need some support right and that's true of a lot of albertans and and for god's sake the last thing we need is a government that is so uncaring that it will do x it will do y it will do z literally a million examples with any government any time this one seems particularly rife on certain days you

Corey 1:36:12

you also do then have the ability to kind of harken back and say there have been dark days and there have been bright days for the new democrats and i was there for the dark days and i was there for the bright days and most importantly i was there on the walk from dark to bright and i've got that experience that can get us back to government here and there is like like a story you can tell and i think it will be particularly compelling with the existing membership base and by the way we haven't talked about rules but if the rules really tighten up the ability to sell membership that might be very compelling yeah that might be a compelling story it's

Zain 1:36:43

it's it's interesting because it's this exercise you know all although quite loose in in its definition is is exposes like

Zain 1:36:52

like beyond enumerating the risks and opportunities exposes like the real sort of like opportunities and risk when you try to put the pitch together right around like what what it is for each of these candidates which kind of makes me want to talk about the rules for a second can we carter and let me start it this way which is like magic

Zain 1:37:08

magic wanded for me from a party perspective like

Zain 1:37:11

like it's eight i just gotta say what are we at we have four hours yet sunday december 17th oh

Corey 1:37:16

oh yeah p.m we'll pass before we finish uh you know recording at this rate it's tough um

Zain 1:37:23

and we'll come after you dave like

Zain 1:37:25

like we will fuck you up okay i mean i bet i could say this this is like uh when a show guest passed 11 p.m on network you can start saying the f word yeah

Zain 1:37:33

can it's the watershed yeah dave we'll fuck you up bad if we don't get this this award okay some of us really need it okay uh that's all

Carter 1:37:42

all we're clinging to at this stage we own

Zain 1:37:43

own tell dave for a year just imagine what we could do to you okay that's a great point that's a mild threat to the nicest person in alberta politics okay carter he's

Carter 1:37:54

the nicest i'm the nicest well

Zain 1:37:56

well you are a person in alberta politics to try to cling on to alberta politics um

Zain 1:38:03

magic won the rules for me if you're the party there's

Zain 1:38:06

there's probably a balance of criteria that you have in terms of money for money like money like fucking money into the party um inside outside prevention we've also heard rumors of take back alberta in fact i think parker is out there saying it himself saying we're gonna usurp the ndp leadership race sure is so yeah give me like top line sense we could probably spend an hour on this if we wanted to um it might be a good question to ask you guys do we want to i don't know if you i don't know what you're yeah let's keep going let's

Carter 1:38:37

let's do it let's do it all fuck it yeah

Carter 1:38:39

here's the here's the magic wand with the with the leadership what do

Zain 1:38:42

do you want what do you want them to be what do you want number

Carter 1:38:45

25 of the leadership votes come from unions that's

Carter 1:38:50

that's got to go away right that can't continue um so that change has to happen second thing don't worry too much about david parker taking over um david parker's sure they're zombies his people are zombies and they will follow him to the ends of the earth but the they do feel like the ends of the earth are the new New Democrats. So will they actually buy memberships for the New Democratic Party in a leadership where they don't have their own candidate? So all you really need to do is keep the candidate out. You

Carter 1:39:26

You don't need to develop any specific rules about that. So just a green light, red light on the candidate and act faster than David Eby did. I'd actually be far more concerned about a takeover from the environmental side in the same way that the The B.C. New Democrats faced that with David Eby.

Carter 1:39:47

But the strong party

Carter 1:39:51

party that says, yes, these people can run or no, they can't run, and eliminating the union vote would be my two big things. There's preferential ballot, immediate single transferable vote that moves the,

Carter 1:40:03

that declares a winner right off the bat with no points for ridings. That's a trap that the New Democrats don't need to fall into. They don't need to run a race that's 87 ridings, equally weighted. They need to run a race that makes Calgary and Edmonton super viable with Red Deer, Lethbridge, Medicine Hat, Grand Prairie, and Fort McMurray as kind of secondary markets. So just one member,

Zain 1:40:29

member, one vote. Standard one member, one vote with preferential is what you're suggesting. Time horizon. Throw something on the table and then I'll get Corey to react to this. Short, long in terms of how long you have to be. be i'm talking in two forms campaign itself and how long you have to be a member uh

Carter 1:40:44

uh you should be a member for a year to run you

Carter 1:40:48

you should be a member for two weeks to vote that'll get you your biggest push the campaign itself should only be three to four months these long campaigns are bankrupting candidates they are just brutal stop doing long campaigns four months at the longest three months at the shortest and the campaign the party should only take about

Carter 1:41:12

about 15 cents on the dollar nothing more than that on the donations and they shouldn't have one of those fucking uh everybody's got to give us three million dollars to run type like a like

Zain 1:41:22

like a bond or not even a

Carter 1:41:24

a bond like a non-refundable bond

Carter 1:41:25

yeah it's got to be a legitimate amount of money to run but not a uh punitive amount of money to run 25k

Carter 1:41:39

to 25 to to 40 maybe 25

Zain 1:41:43

25 to 4 okay let me summarize for you react to this yeah if that's cool 25 to 40k three to four month race two weeks uh membership you have to hold a membership for two weeks to vote a member for a year to run no points by writing single transferable vote uh one member one vote What else did you have, Carter? You had some commentary in regards to keeping the TBA candidate out, so to speak. Just

Carter 1:42:07

Just have a yes, no. Go, no, go on the candidates.

Zain 1:42:11

Corey, react to any and all of it. What's right? What's wrong? What needs to be tweaked? And the frame I'm asking you is the party. You are the party, right? Your interest is the party.

Corey 1:42:21

So let's start with the easy ones that I agree with Stephen on. One is you manage the worry about take back Alberta at the candidate level. You don't worry about it at the membership level. Because also, these groups are so insular and weird, they're not even going to, even if they wanted to try to screw with your race, if you have three candidates, all of which are fine, they're not even going to know which one is good or bad for them electorally, because they're so mindlessly following one particular ideological path here, right? right? So yeah, maybe a year, maybe it's three years over the past 10 years. Maybe it's something that proves that this was a person who was in the NDP for some length of time. Donations count. Find a system to make sure it's actually somebody who cares about the NDP. But be mindful, especially if you make it, you must have had a membership. There may be some outsiders who won't hit that threshold.

Carter 1:43:12

threshold. Yeah, because they couldn't hold a membership, right?

Corey 1:43:15

Because they couldn't for whatever reasons or whatever, right? So that's a possibility there. But I do think that there are ways around that and just make really tight approving of candidates where you manage that particular issue. I also think you don't do points as a bit of a safeguard to that because Take Back Alberta will, especially if it's like 100 points for everybody instead of like that's the ceiling,

Corey 1:43:38

you're going to end up with a bunch of rural ridings where those votes are going to to seem really important because even if you even if you have a ceiling even if it's not like you immediately get 100 points for a riding the reality is you're going to have places in calgary with many hundreds if not thousands of ndp members and you don't want them diluted versus you know david parker's supporters out in some random part of alberta you know some small town where everybody's voting in a post so don't don't do points like any any complication of rules Rules helps rule fuckers. And Take Back Alberta is a bunch of rule fuckers. So keep this thing really simple, right? You keep the rules simple, you keep the contest clean as a general principle

Corey 1:44:21

said rule, R-U-L-E. I thought you

Carter 1:44:23

you said sheep fuckers.

Carter 1:44:26

was my bad. And

Corey 1:44:29

people who want to fuck with the rules. And then I couldn't

Corey 1:44:33

couldn't agree more about a short campaign. Love a short campaign always. all of the action happens just before the deadlines anyhow it's like long periods of languish and just trying to find reasons to get together for another debate that nobody cares about make it fast frenetic have these things come at you quick especially especially if you can buy memberships late i love right up to the wire that's when there's the most public interest and excitement that's when the late breaking candidates would get their momentum anyhow and you don't preclude that so you really get to see how people are through the stretch and let's be clear if there's been a shadow campaign for four months when this thing is actually called another four months makes it an eight month campaign anyhow you know another eight months makes it a year-long campaign and that's fucking brutal so i i generally agree with everything that steven said here i also do believe you need to just simplify your leadership rules again it's

Corey 1:45:26

it's all about simplifying get

Corey 1:45:28

get out these point systems that rate you know union memberships one thing and other memberships another thing simple simple simple simple one member one vote buy your membership late deal with the rest of it on the candidate level that's my strong advice i

Zain 1:45:41

i want to pick up on one thing that i just want clarity on cory you'd say memberships right up until voting is that what you'd suggest yeah

Corey 1:45:49

yeah like carter said two weeks yeah like

Corey 1:45:52

like i think there's kind of depending on your method of voting a logistical like last day yeah maybe it's three days maybe Maybe it's two weeks if you're mailing the ballots or whatnot. But the later you can run it to the end, that's when you're going to get all the media interest. That's when you're going to get people out there saying, oh, look, there's another NDP leaders debate and all of that. I think that's fun. I think that's good fun for a bit

Carter 1:46:12

bit of fun. If it's seven days, that would be ideal.

Carter 1:46:15

But I was thinking logistics as well.

Corey 1:46:18

Logistics become a challenge.

Zain 1:46:19

challenge. Give me the natural extension to all of this, how it kind of culminates. It's in-person, like, rally-like feel, like, celebrate Rachel, sort of like that sort of thing, specific to the new candidate, like, celebrate Rachel, thank Rachel, new person, like, give me, if you're organized, you're the party, right? This is what,

Zain 1:46:38

help me organize the culmination. Where does the train ultimately land in the station for the most success for us?

Corey 1:46:45

Yeah, culmination, not Rachel's day, right? Like, this is the new leader's day, the minute it becomes that. So, find a different way to thank Rachel. Obviously, that will be part of the program, but it's not the program.

Corey 1:46:56

Parties do tend to overestimate the enthusiasm of leadership campaigns for these big events, can I say? Because they're like, we'll get a big hall and we can fill it. It'll be a great thing. Fuck you.

Corey 1:47:08

you. We're trying to get votes out. We're out there trying to make sure that people are actually doing the things we need them to do to win. I'm not going to put 400 bodies in a room for you on that particular day. so my other advice to the party is don't don't try to do that like obviously you need a show and you need to be able to make sure the leader doesn't look like they're in an empty room but the ways to do that are to have a modest size room make sure that there's some time between the closing of the votes and the announcing of the votes let people get there don't try to do the thing parties so often try to do which is think that this is about the

Corey 1:47:40

the party infrastructure at the day it's not it's about making sure that the next leader gets the best foot forward and there are ways you can do that where literally you could have 50 people in the room and it would look great to television and online and those are probably the things that you need to be looking at carter

Zain 1:47:56

where does this train land you've got opinions on on how these days should look based on past episodes how should this day look if you were organizing for the albert ndp well

Carter 1:48:06

well i mean i think you i'd be very interested in doing a vote on one day and an event the next day The liberals in Ontario just try to do an event a week later, I think. Two weeks or a week after? Yeah, a week later. That's right. Yeah. It was too long. Too long, but I get

Corey 1:48:24

get the idea. Yeah.

Carter 1:48:26

Yeah. And I do agree with Corey, even though I'm kind of saying, well, let's do a little event. It's going to be an event in Calgary. It's not going to be an event in Edmonton. And it's going to fill the room, but it's not going to be a huge room. because ultimately these things now exist on the internet,

Carter 1:48:45

internet, really. They're not really for anything more than that because the internet is actually your primary medium that you wish to show that you can communicate with people. So focus on that, create a really good web show and have

Carter 1:49:01

have that as your primary outcome rather than worrying about all

Carter 1:49:05

all these other things that could go wrong or could happen or could be part of it. i would just entirely focus on the on the uh on the web cory

Zain 1:49:15

cory um let's walk through each of these three candidates which

Zain 1:49:19

which how would they be lobbying for rules that are different what

Zain 1:49:24

what what rules benefit and should they be lobbying for rules right

Zain 1:49:27

now like do you lobby for rules just let's start here

Corey 1:49:30

here well let's just be clear i i think it's a great exercise if only because us having this conversation will help sort of expose it when it does occur right

Corey 1:49:37

i would say anything a

Corey 1:49:41

especially when you've got three candidates in the caucus you know any tightening of candidacy benefits them yes so just be aware that that's generally occurring yep although we have all recommended it for different reasons so i think we should acknowledge that as well tightening

Corey 1:49:54

tightening of membership affects them variably i think it benefits sarah hoffman the most so like if you you effectively had a way so there were no other members after today it's probably advantage sarah although i don't a hundred percent believe that the existing membership today in a vote would for sure a hundred percent vote for sarah hoffman because of the electability questions that other candidates might try to bring in but i do think it would benefit sarah so i think the later the membership is i

Corey 1:50:23

could say the more fair the the voting field i think supporters of sarah Hoffman might say the less fair, but I think that that is a bit of a difference that you need to watch there. Point systems will disadvantage Edmonton, almost certainly, because it will probably put a cap as to what an Edmonton vote is. And that is at least the current base of support. So maybe a better way to put that as a point system seems at least to me right now to most obviously disadvantage Sarah Hoffman, because she will only be able to get so many votes out of there. And maybe it might even advantage Kathleen Ganley, because Calgary will have a number of ridings where arguably you would think Kathleen would have a natural advantage. And they're going to have the same cap as like an Edmonton Millwoods, which will have, you know, a very or Mill Creek will have a very different view, or a number of members. So I

Corey 1:51:14

think those are some of the obvious ones right off the bat. And then I will just say like the size of the entry fee will obviously exclude anybody who's kind of taking a flyer or as a tire kicker your

Corey 1:51:25

mileage will vary on who that quote-unquote benefits i think that actually too low of one and you might have more caucus members coming in and saying yeah sure what the hell right um but again the

Corey 1:51:38

the people at the top of the list tend to benefit the most like in terms of like most often mentioned tend to benefit most from high entry fees yeah even though i know i'm the guy who said 25k was too low i think 100 is fine you're

Corey 1:51:50

you're thinking about becoming you

Corey 1:51:52

know a leader who's contesting to be the premier yeah

Carter 1:51:55

yeah but you're also dealing with very strict fundraising rules that

Carter 1:51:58

that you brought in so you best not be you best not be uh uh

Carter 1:52:03

uh cheating you know or breaking those fundraising rules so hey for

Carter 1:52:07

you know this is a uh

Carter 1:52:09

uh bit of a dilemma that the ndp create for themselves because the the rules are going to be are going to be sticky and tricky tricky.

Corey 1:52:17

Carter? Well, and again, fewer rules, the better. Because

Corey 1:52:20

Because the more rules there are, you want to talk about who advantages. It's take back Alberta. It's the people who sit up there and read through the Constitution for ways that they can get the queen to remove the government.

Zain 1:52:30

Carter, I'm going to land this point. Give me your thoughts on some of these rules. Corey's kind of laid out which set of rules advantage which of these candidates going forward. Any

Zain 1:52:39

deviations to what Corey said? Are you good on that? Or do you want to throw your hat into that that conversation just

Carter 1:52:45

just understand that whatever the rules are these campaigns are um almost

Carter 1:52:50

almost required to push the limits to determine where how far they can get away uh you know what can they do to uh advantage themselves in this situation so um you better have a really strong wrong returning

Carter 1:53:08

returning officer that's going to stand at the gate and make sure that this campaign is run fairly. If you have a campaign returning officer that no one knows or no one likes, no one trusts, it's going to really undo what could be a really big party building opportunity. And every decision that is ultimately taken shouldn't be taken with the idea of who it advantages or disadvantages. advantages every decision that is made needs to be put through the party lens and say does this help the party so for example the liberals pushing their their announcement off by a week did that help or did that hinder i'd argue that it hindered others may have an argument that it helped um but whatever you choose to do uh it's for the party because leaderships aren't actually about the new new leader. Leadership's are about taking a party from position

Carter 1:54:03

position B. Too many leaderships slide backwards. This leadership could be one that really launches the party forwards.

Zain 1:54:11

I'm going to leave that segment there, Corey. Moving on to our over, under, and our lightning round. You may have heard of this segment. We do it for Stephen Carter, which means I'll let you go first. But Corey, I don't know if letting you go first is exactly a blessing in this particular question because it's a one question over under lightning round um

Zain 1:54:30

i have no idea how long we've recorded at this point who knows um it could be we're

Corey 1:54:34

we're coming up on two hours but we're

Zain 1:54:35

there yet okay do you want me to milk we

Corey 1:54:36

we might try to milk

Zain 1:54:37

milk this we might have to okay well

Corey 1:54:38

well i can add questions

Zain 1:54:40

questions cory i mean come on one thing people can do while they wait wait for me to stall is go to telldave.ca okay yes

Corey 1:54:45

yes you gotta tell save uh eight you got to get there before 8 p.m mountain time

Corey 1:54:50

sunday december 17th please please

Corey 1:54:51

please be there uh

Zain 1:54:54

you're coming second Corey, you're going first on this. Here's the question, Corey.

Zain 1:54:58

With everything we have just discussed, we don't know the rules yet, but we've put the pitches out. We have insight into some of the situation, I guess, from the analysis, from the article, from the scuttlebutt, from the conversations.

Zain 1:55:10

Which of the three candidates between Rocky Pancholi, Kathleen Ganley, or Sarah Hoffman would you want to be right

Corey 1:55:20

wow that's interesting okay um you

Corey 1:55:23

you can work it out for folks you can give them a show your math situation

Corey 1:55:26

situation if you'd like to so there's there's an argument that it's sarah because she's in pole position right at least in our assessment and analysis and maybe other people will come in and say we think you're nuts and your view from calgary of edmonton's feelings about sarah are wrong or or you know that's all possible i'm not denying that for a particular for a minute you you know, but let's just say what we said, we at least, you know, are

Corey 1:55:50

are willing to stand by as we go through this analysis, I would say, you know, that's not so bad to be and certainly even the newspaper article suggested that you'd be Rachel Notley's choice. And that's not so bad to see. So I guess that's the argument for her.

Corey 1:56:08

I would still worry about all of the things we talked about, right? Like in terms of like, does this really tell the story you need to tell and all all of that kathleen

Corey 1:56:15

kathleen i think probably has the easiest brand like of all of the ones we did and admittedly it's it's highly variable depending on how competent we are minute to minute but i think calgary rachel that's a super easy shorthand that's going to serve her well and i i should say you know personality wise they're not that that similar but on paper on paper you know they they seem pretty similar sure sure as as we

Corey 1:56:38

we mentioned and then uh yeah

Corey 1:56:40

yeah yeah and then uh when you think about racky i think i

Corey 1:56:44

i kind of i kind of love the position she's in just in general that's the fun position to be like the switch hitter like

Zain 1:56:50

like you know sort of you know if she needs to be this well but

Corey 1:56:53

but it but you know it's like if i'm gonna do this i'm gonna have to do it a little bit interesting and that's kind of a fun campaign to be in too right and to have kind of the latitude to do that and to know that that gets to be your your brand if you want it to be your brand and to to know that

Corey 1:57:08

that the expectations probably weigh differently on you than they do on Sarah, for example. So it's the perennial question. Do you want to be the frontrunner at this point, knowing the frontrunner often fades? Do you want to be the dark horse, knowing the dark horse doesn't always win? And by the way, she's not the dark horse. She was listed as one of the three big candidates here in this article. But

Corey 1:57:28

it's an open question. I think being in – I

Corey 1:57:32

I think having talked it out, I

Corey 1:57:34

think I would rather be Kathleen or Racky than

Corey 1:57:39

but I don't feel very strongly about that. Carter,

Zain 1:57:42

Carter, do you feel strongly about your pick? Feel free to work it out as well, but give me your take.

Carter 1:57:50

Well, I think that my take is going to be relatively similar to Corey's. I'm not a person who really thinks that frontrunner campaigns are easy to win. And that may come just from the fact that most of my campaigns have been, you know, underdog style campaigns. I just think that it's

Carter 1:58:10

it's really easy to frame someone who's known. And that framing is most often very negative for them. So I think that that's going to be a burden that each of these candidates is going to have to carry.

Carter 1:58:27

So I think, first

Carter 1:58:29

first of all, I think I agree. I think the person who's

Carter 1:58:33

who's going to be the least strong is probably Sarah Hoffman. I think that people will have a difficult time getting excited to buy a lot of new memberships from her. I think she'll do really well within the existing membership, but that may not be enough. I think that Kathleen's going to be hampered by her inability

Carter 1:58:56

to kind of work on the bigger stage. she works really well on the small stage and i think that she's a great person but i think that this is going to be a big stage uh and if racky makes it a big stage then that's going to be very positive for her so i like racky kind of in my i'm actually going to put racky in my second spot though because i think that the

Carter 1:59:16

the person that's really the most advantaged is someone who's going to come from outside who's going to be if

Carter 1:59:22

if someone comes from outside who's well financed and has the ability to kind

Carter 1:59:29

of beat everybody on their on new terms on a new frame

Carter 1:59:34

frame that we haven't even thought about here then i think someone from outside could really do well fucking carter opening up that okay

Zain 1:59:40

okay we'll look it's actually a great point can i say

Corey 1:59:46

we have talked about these three candidates who got the pictures in the cbc article and that's the entire time to have

Zain 1:59:53

have this rooted and

Corey 1:59:53

and we wanted yeah absolutely i'm not saying it was the bad way to approach i think it is absolutely the the best way to enter into this it's why we gave it two hours here that's why we could give it another two if we really wanted to yeah

Zain 2:00:04

hey do it but as

Corey 2:00:06

through the list there were a number maybe a little i don't know but like there were a number of times going through the list i thought

Corey 2:00:14

they're similar in its shades right like how long have they been in caucus was a spectrum but it's It's a spectrum, right? It's like shades. There is a space for someone who's like, never been in caucus. Nope, forget that. You know, nope. You know, I just am an entirely different paradigm. The three of them are fighting in one paradigm. I'm in an entirely different paradigm. And I actually do think there's a massive opportunity on that. Names

Zain 2:00:37

Names being mentioned, Gil McGowan, Nenshi, others in that article.

Carter 2:00:42

I'm sorry, Zane. We were talking about talented people.

Corey 2:00:47

Jesus Christ. uh but

Corey 2:00:50

but why are you like this what

Carter 2:00:52

what did i say carter

Zain 2:00:52

carter never puts something out on the table unless he's got it like cough up carter what are you talking about like give me the composite of this person if you don't want to give me this person right like like a well

Zain 2:01:05

well-financed person that that that is a member for the last year or so right if we're going with your set of rules right like invariably

Carter 2:01:12

invariably there's someone who comes forward who is interesting um and that person who who comes forward that is interesting. Define

Zain 2:01:19

Define interesting. Let's be more specific. What does interesting mean to you? You said you don't like... Breaks

Carter 2:01:24

Breaks the log jam that currently exists with these three existing candidates. I mean, each of them in some fashion is going to be compared to Rachel. Each of them in some fashion is going to be compared to Danielle Smith. And some of those favorable or unfavorable comparisons are going to be tricky to make. But I think that But someone

Carter 2:01:44

someone who comes in in a new paradigm is going to be seen as someone who's immediately competitive with Danielle, not just immediately competitive with the

Carter 2:01:55

the existing NDP leadership. I think that someone who comes in who's got the ability to hold

Carter 2:02:02

hold people's attention as the

Carter 2:02:04

the conversation's happening. happening

Zain 2:02:06

can i be fair for a second what you've just listed sounds like the standard trap voters fall into with like this unicorn candidate someone always

Carter 2:02:13

always wants a unicorn people

Carter 2:02:15

people always want a unicorn cory

Carter 2:02:18

cory this person may not develop zane right

Carter 2:02:22

right the the person may not come out but i you're not even talking about develop

Zain 2:02:25

develop you're you're talking you're effectively saying someone who's on the shelf that we could just slot in who does all these things that we've

Carter 2:02:33

right so like we're halfway finally

Zain 2:02:35

hour mark thank you finally it's i was here the whole time carter we got posted

Carter 2:02:41

posted well i mean don't think you're my first choice this 1275

Zain 2:02:45

1275 episode rom-com finally finds its conclusion it was your whole time carter cory your thoughts on this though in seriousness like yeah

Zain 2:02:55

yeah he's asking for a lot to be clear for this outsider to play.

Zain 2:03:01

But he doesn't have a name

Carter 2:03:03

Listen, Alison Redstone was an outsider. No, no, no, no, no,

Corey 2:03:06

no, no. And we

Carter 2:03:06

we made her that candidate. She only had

Corey 2:03:07

had two people support her in that caucus, right? Well, if she had two of

Carter 2:03:11

of you count herself.

Corey 2:03:14

Yes, I do. Yeah.

Carter 2:03:16

the guy who lost his nomination race, that was powerful. And

Corey 2:03:20

And did it out of spite. Lost

Carter 2:03:21

Lost it to Rick Frazier.

Carter 2:03:23

Less than 100 votes. I

Zain 2:03:25

listeners know we're just waiting till 8. maybe we're just waiting till 8 p.m i

Carter 2:03:30

fucking tired right now by the way like no one tells yeah i need a

Zain 2:03:34

cory cory end us on on something

Corey 2:03:37

something good here i

Corey 2:03:39

i well what i think is you

Corey 2:03:41

you are 100 right zane there is the problem of like who is this mystical unicorn who is this person who's going to do this for the ndp but what i would observe and what i would underline and what What I think is the truth in what Stephen has said here is

Corey 2:03:56

if you squint, all of the candidates that we're talking about kind of look the same to the average voter, right? And so that presents an awfully big opportunity for somebody who maybe looks a little bit more economically conservative, maybe somebody who is from a world outside of politics, who brings in personality from elsewhere, who maybe was – actually, we'll even use Nodhead for a second here, right? Like Nahed, who just had cachet as somebody who was the smartest guy in the room before he stood up and said, I am the smartest guy in most rooms. I'd like to try to be the smartest guy in the mayor's office for a bit. right yeah

Corey 2:04:30

like they're now listen that now he has got a lot of baggage from having been mayor and if they think that he's going to win calgary i think that that's a whole separate podcast but i do think somebody

Corey 2:04:41

somebody is going to look at this situation just as not had did in 2010 and say

Corey 2:04:46

you know what maybe

Corey 2:04:48

nine not heads out of ten fail but sometimes one comes forward and does it and you know it's it's it does feel like there's some open terrain in this race that is all i think that we can say at this particular moment. I

Zain 2:05:01

I like it. I'm going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 1275 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velge. With me, as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan, and make sure you go to telldave.ca for 8 p.m. on Sunday, December 17th. Our pride and glory is on the line. Telldave.ca, and we'll see you next time.

Transcript