Episode 1258: Both feet

Zain 0:02

This is the strategist episode 1258. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan. Guys, how's

Carter 0:11

a great day, Zain. I got to see you. I didn't

Carter 0:14

didn't get to see your kid. But you know, that's fine. I don't need to see the kid.

Zain 0:19

I like when you visit that I don't let you come inside the house. It's a message. It's a barrier. It sends a message. It sends a, yeah, that doorway lingering is, I've perfected it. You're clearly denoting that he's a work friend.

Carter 0:34

Yeah, no, it's very clear, Corey. I mean, I get to your house, I get to go, you know, at least look inside the door a little. Yeah, sure, like

Zain 0:40

like I'll at least let you peer around. It's

Zain 0:43

the, you want a door knocker to leave? Number one strategy, when they knock on your door, you embrace it with enthusiasm. You open the door and you walk out with them and you say hello and you just. Wrong, Zane. No, it's absolutely correct. And I did that with Stephen Carter. Number

Corey 0:55

Number one strategy is no shirt. okay number two strategy is engage enthusiastically combining the two strategies you're

Corey 1:01

you're you're effing golden yeah it's wonderful cory's you guys ever

Carter 1:04

ever invite the door knocker in that really messes with them you

Carter 1:08

you want to come in for a coffee and

Corey 1:11

again yeah amateur moves here yeah you want to come to my garage for a coffee oh

Carter 1:15

oh that's good stuff

Carter 1:19

i thought it all the way through now

Zain 1:20

now you know if i look at someone like you 40s those glasses and haircut that's true i'm like this guy's got it like a legit japanese coffee setup in his garage i feel like you're one of those people you're like dude freshly imported i've got filters from taipei do you want some coffee in my garage i would say yes if

Zain 1:38

carter asks for some coffee in his garage and uses air quotes when he says garage that gives me the vibes that says you know it's time to move away um which is why trick or treat at the carter and hogan household uh yeah is is more trick less it's a shared household it's

Carter 1:53

it's gonna be great it's more

Zain 1:55

more trick less treat um guys we had a patreon episode that we um deliberately leaked to the public uh and i and i feel like the reviews are in um and cory have we had anyone sign up to the patreon as a result of that like

Zain 2:07

those four people not our

Zain 2:10

best i feel like i feel like the strategy here was missing we gave an episode for free and then told them to pay And then said, for that episode. For the episode, yeah.

Zain 2:18

I felt like something was missing there in our logic, Carter.

Carter 2:23

thought it was going to work great. I had tons of enthusiasm for Corey's idea.

Corey 2:28

Yeah, you generally do.

Corey 2:29

Well, you did because it meant that we could push off this recording for two days.

Carter 2:33

Yeah, there was that. There was that. Yeah, there was a little bit of that. Part of me wishes

Zain 2:36

wishes we recorded this

Zain 2:37

this back to back so we could not talk about what we're about to talk about, Carter. Oh, yeah, great. Well, this

Carter 2:42

this is going to be the episode of my life. I'm enjoying this already. Well,

Zain 2:45

Well, it might be the last episode of your life, Carter. Yeah, that's good. Which brings me to our first segment, gents. Our first segment, is this a good idea?

Zain 2:55

is what we're about to do a good idea?

Corey 2:58

I mean, it depends on what we want to do. But here's what I've been pitching to the two of you via text pretty aggressively all weekend. And I think as it's evolved, I've gone through oscillation of, well, maybe we shouldn't. And those feelings of maybe we shouldn't are exactly ultimately why I think we should. And of course, talking about the Hamas terror attacks in Israel, and more specifically, the political reaction here in Canada, we've seen some wild stuff. My personal quote unquote, favorite, and by favorite, I mean, like, the one that just needs to be talked about was Olivia Chow putting out a statement condemning the attacks. Two hours later, adding to the thread on Twitter, you know, saying there are also people suffering in Palestine or something to that effect, and then kind of like taking it down and doing a do-over on it all here.

Zain 3:46

then going quite hard after that, right, on the pro-Palestine sort of gatherings that were happening in Toronto, so to speak. So, like, multiple iterations, like going through a different chapter, a different version

Corey 4:04

over the course of 12 hours, maybe? You are seeing so many statements stacked on statements as people are trying to assess this. And there is some interesting

Corey 4:14

interesting stuff to unpack there. And I think that at a moment like this, where obviously something horrific has happened with Hamas's terror attack, and I just, like, let's start here so we're not misunderstood. Well, I'll give you my view. I'm not going to put words in anyone's mouth, but the targeted murder and kidnapping of civilians, civilians that include children and the elderly, and the murder

Corey 4:37

murder and kidnapping of civilians was the point, to be really

Corey 4:40

We're not saying collateral. This was the plan. That

Corey 4:43

That is abhorrent. It's indefensible. It is not something that anybody should be standing up and supporting. It's fucking awful. There are a thousand dead in Israel, 800 dead in Gaza, countless injured, homes lost, families traumatized. It's fucking bad. And it's fucking bad ultimately because Hamas decided to take a terror attack.

Corey 5:04

That's my bottom line on this one here. And there's no defense for this particular action. There is no series of actions that will make me okay with the actions that Hamas took. That's my personal view on it. I'm going to throw that out there right there.

Corey 5:18

there is however a difficulty in in politicians are facing in how they're supposed to address this issue with

Corey 5:25

with a broader context there and even saying that is something people don't want to hear yeah

Corey 5:30

don't want to talk about at this moment and i actually think that that's a very understandable response but if you're a politician what we saw for the first 12 hours 24 hours 48 hours was them wrestling with that and i think their good sense kind of broke when when they didn't realize they could immediately condemn terror. But part of it is this, you know, the overall views in Canada towards the two-state solutions and Israel and Palestine have been very dramatically shifting over the past 30 years. So,

Zain 5:59

So, Corey, let me... It's got to be unpacked. Let me react to this. Carter, I want to let you get in on this.

Carter 6:05

Oh, that'd be okay. I'm okay not talking on this.

Zain 6:09

Carter, I need you to fill about seven to nine quick minutes here on

Zain 6:13

on your opinions. and make them hot.

Zain 6:17

The takes need to be hot, Carter. Yeah, hot takes all the way through. Divisive as well. I think that really helps our algorithm. Divisive

Carter 6:23

Divisive would be perfect.

Zain 6:24

perfect. Corey's laid out, and I think it's fair to say that we agree with Corey's, you know,

Zain 6:28

analysis of the situation, the terror that has occurred,

Zain 6:32

Hamas, you know, going after, as their core objective, to terrorize, right? There's a bunch of context we can go And we can talk about how abhorrent that is. But I want to get your take on what Corey's suggesting here, this sort of your initial take on this. And then let me add some shape to it. If we want to go in this direction, I can add some shape to it, because there's a few threads I want to pull at in terms of the domestic response. This podcast will not try to act as experts on the foreign policy front. We are not that. There are other people smarter than that. Carter and I both got fired as being Jerry Butt's assistant at Eurasia Group, right? There's a reason for that. Yeah,

Carter 7:09

Right? You know what? That wasn't public. Okay. That

Zain 7:11

wasn't public. But what was, was that Wikipedia is easily searchable and very easily identifiable, Carter, when you plagiarize it, Carter. So we won't do the foreign policy thing, Carter. Okay, thank you for covering. Thank

Zain 7:28

What do you think of Corey's sort of, you

Zain 7:31

you know, the knots that politicians are tying themselves into around how to respond within this broader context, so to speak?

Carter 7:41

Well, I think that, you know, there are certain beats to responses, right? There are beats to the responses that are immediate. I mean, we start off with the Hamas response, right? So everybody had to do the, this

Carter 7:54

this is bad. I mean, it is bad. There are rules to war. And that in and of itself seems like almost a joke, right? We have these rules for proper warfare. But there are rules for warfare because we have decided as a humanity that some things are stepping too far and Hamas stepped too far. So we should be able to stand up and say, that's bad. Then there is a beat about, well, what about the overarching situation? How

Carter 8:25

about this situation that we are in? How about the modern day problem that exists? And then, well, you know, we have to we have to recognize that things aren't great there. And then we have to go

Carter 8:37

go further. Right. We have to go further to the occupation and we have to go further back to the to the actual creation of Israel. And every step, every step of this journey is fraught with landmines,

Carter 8:52

landmines, for lack of a better phrase, because these these issues

Carter 8:57

issues aren't black and white. there is a black and white nature to the hamas response but after that everything kind of falls into different you

Carter 9:06

you know you know different shades of gray and i think that our politics today might be uniquely under prepared for shades of gray uh in a in a in a time in a time when

Carter 9:20

every take is a hot take then maybe we just don't have the skill set any longer to differentiate or to to, to look at scenarios that have multiple complexities. And, and let's be honest, if there's anything more multi-complex, you know, filled with multi-dimensional complexities than the Middle East, I don't know of it. It's, it's a horrific situation with horrific outcomes for everybody that's involved almost from day one. And, you

Carter 9:53

you know, no one, it, it, to me, it almost reminds me of our first you know of the first nations issues in canada the first nations issues in canada are horrific they're difficult they're super challenging they're not made any easier by not talking about them in in uh easily understandable language that defines and dictates and steps through the the the gray um that that comprises all of the all of the challenges so you know i'm i'm kind of pleased that we get to chat about this i'm pleased that we're going to to tackle it i think that um

Carter 10:29

um you know i hope that people grant us some uh

Carter 10:35

some understanding that we are trying to deal with things in a complex that are in their complexity and not just their simplicity because it is the complexity that gives us um the richness to to respect the cultures on both sides of this and the deep, deep hole that has been dug by those who've come in the past.

Zain 10:56

Corey, can we, can we, let me, I said I'm going to add a bit of shape to this. Let's try to do it. Let's talk about the domestic political front, and let's use your sort of core question as a starting point.

Zain 11:07

What do you think went on in Olivia Chow's office that day? And listen, let's just use her as an example. I really like Olivia Chow. I know Olivia Chow. I respect her politics. I respect her grit. But what do you think went on in that office that day? Because you've started to allude to a bit of a response in terms of what may have happened. We're entering pure speculation, but I think for a good cause, so we can try to explain the broader macro of what might be going on here in terms of politicians wrestling with the message box and where it is in this very devastating crisis.

Corey 11:40

Yeah. So when something truly horrific or truly tragic happens, you often find politicians immediately coming to a conclusion as to what they should say and people are united on exactly what they should say and the level of texture

Corey 11:56

texture and nuance and context and what's appropriate. because let's be really fucking clear and and i really understand people who are you know just don't want to have the conversation right now about uh you know israel and palestine because when an arsonist burns down your house nobody wants to hear you didn't install sprinklers okay like this is this is like a very immediate tragedy and and there are there are a lot of emotions and understandably so but

Corey 12:22

when what was interesting about this particular issue is we didn't you know People very quickly can come to condemning Hamas and the attacks and everything. But I think people were not 100% sure – I'm talking about politicians here – what was expected of them in this particular moment because of how, in macro, the situation has evolved and Canadians' views have evolved on this here. So, like, I'll get to your answer, Zane, but there was some polling done in 2020 about – and look, I looked at the poll questions, and I think the thumb was on the scale. I don't think that they're necessarily the greatest phrasings of questions, but it was polling done by ECOS, and it was legitimate polling, and it asked, effectively, how do you feel about Israel looking to abandon, you know, a two-state solution? solution and canadians very opposed three quarters opposed to it and um and why i think the thumb was on the scale a bit is the question did say like canada supports a two-state solution israel's now walking away from it how do you feel about i mean

Corey 13:19

mean that's that's a little bit of a phrase thing but

Corey 13:21

but in addition to that almost a half of canadians wanted sanctions against israel at the time and and views are not so reflexively supportive of the israeli state amongst canadians as a whole as they were in decades past and and some of that is demographics and maybe we can get into that in a minute and some of that's not maybe some of that's just shifting worldviews but to get back to olivia chow and what the hell do i think happened there is there was a statement of oh my god this is horrible and then somebody or somebodies or groups of people around olivia chow said you

Corey 13:56

you there are all of these other events where people have died in numbers and gas and if If you look at it over the past 20 years, the number of civilian deaths and casualties on the Gaza side far eclipsed what's going on now. I'm sure somebody said that, and I'm sure Olivia Chow, well-intentioned, said, my goodness, I think I need to comment about how there is problems on each side of the Gaza barrier, right? And did that. But

Corey 14:20

But then see my previous comment about when an arsonist burns down your house, nobody wants to hear you didn't install sprinklers.

Corey 14:25

And so people said, are you effing kidding me right now? You know, there is a terror attack going on live, basically, in Israel as we speak. And, you know, this is where the comments are. And so then it was kind of like a pull down and a redo. And as this evolved, and as the scope of the terror attack became clear, and as the reporting became more filled out, and as people all started shifting towards that, you know, decision that they were going to give the full-throated support to the state of Israel, which I think collectively politicians have largely decided to do at this point. That's where we've converged,

Corey 14:56

for the most part. Or

Corey 14:58

it has now become like a very strong statements. And it almost doesn't feel like the same Olivia Chow when you look at those statements versus the statements to follow. And that's really fascinating to me. And it's not fascinating to me where they ended up. It's fascinating to me that there was the moment where, you know, a not insignificant number of people weren't quite sure what to say and weren't quite sure what to do, largely because it was colored by the broader shifts on this issue before kind of the full scope of the terror was

Zain 15:27

was known. Carter, do you feel like there's a rule here in politics that might be emerging? And I know we're right in the middle of this, and this is another hot button issue, right? So I'm asking you, hey, are we creating political rules as we see this develop? That's not what I'm saying. But there is something to Corey's point around, well, let me just address it straight up.

Zain 15:49

Does anyone care about context when something so acute and horrible happens? And this is where I ask you about the political rule here, right? If you were advising someone today, and let's say this had happened on the other side, right? And there's arguments to be made on the other side, right? But does the context matter, right, to Corey's point? Or as a politician, is your response to reflect where people are at today in this acute moment? And treat this as an event rather than as a continuum. Maybe that's a better way of phrasing it. And so I'm just kind of curious if you've got any thoughts on that. Because that is what the, at least the expectation of many, was to treat this as an event, not as another milestone, as horrible as it is, in terms of a long historical continuum. Your thoughts on that? Yeah,

Carter 16:35

Yeah, I mean, I think that there used to be a rule that you, you know, especially in foreign affairs, you just said you said things that you thought were factual, and you took a strong position, and you led. And it kind of put us back into a box that we've been in a number of times when I talk about leadership versus reflection, right? right? There used to, you know, foreign affairs used to be a place where leadership could consistently exist. And that leadership, because we didn't know very much, right? We didn't know very much about the world, we would just take that which was given to us by, you

Carter 17:13

you know, the tall foreheads. And we would, you know, that was the world. That's the way the world unfolded. now i think we're in real trouble right i think that because there are no experts anymore because we are all experts because we all get to be the ones with the you know the degrees you know because you earn your degree on twitter that enables

Carter 17:37

enables you to take these or forces the politician to

Carter 17:41

to no longer take the leadership position especially when you know that the mob is going to scream you down so you don't get to take a leadership position even in something as simple as decrying violence that is disgusting until you know that the mob's not going to come after you so this mob mentality has chased a lot of positions

Carter 18:06

positions away and then maybe that's great maybe that's great maybe we do need a reset on this because maybe we were going too far in our support of certain ideas and certain thoughts and and just blind following but i still think we still got the same blind following in a lot of our ideological circles which is i think cory you know kind of proposed one idea what happened in chow's office i think there was another kind of situation that unfolded and that is that people

Carter 18:34

people with certain ideological points of view about the palestinian conflict uh and the palestinian israeli conflict came in with their ideological views and they

Carter 18:45

they tend to be left of center see cupi's response um and well one cupi local

Carter 18:52

just one cupi local is still a

Carter 18:56

a you know i mean i think that i think it's safe to say that there have been problematic

Carter 19:01

problematic responses ideologically from multiple groups

Zain 19:05

groups and to be to be clear though carter right those that particular response was someone kind of talking about what happened as part of the resistance versus simply being shouldn't

Zain 19:14

shouldn't say just simply being but pro-palestinian right and and the conflation between hamas

Zain 19:18

hamas and palestine i think is also something yes go ahead make your point people get

Carter 19:22

get shouted down for

Carter 19:24

for the and i think that there were positions that were taken quickly that

Carter 19:29

that remind you know people said don't forget about this other situation and they weren't wrong necessarily to say it but the

Carter 19:36

the way that the mob is behaving right now that is not an acceptable position and and olivia chow had to back away because the mob was pushing her in a different position which isn't necessarily bad no

Zain 19:47

no no it is the situation but but let cory let me just use the moment that just happened between card and i to illustrate this point right i was just adding context so friends that i know right like my literally my friends who probably listen to this who are very pro-palestine have been for a while right um would

Zain 20:07

would not misinterpret me and

Zain 20:08

and when carter talks about this mob right it's in in this case it's not just an online mob this is very different these are like people that many folks know these are like real voices out there twitter and other places might be the medium but this is not just an an overly online story right and i know that a lot of the stuff we're seeing incubates there it carries on but this is generations deep very live very real for many many people. But Corey, I wanted to kind of get your reaction to this event versus continuum, right? And if there is an emerging, if not already baked rule for how political leaders need to think about this, is context around the continuum of history important? Or are we in a moment where the advice that we would give as practitioners, as strategists, is really about deal with the event in front of you?

Corey 20:59

You always deal with the event in front of you. You don't need to look at a lot of other events to see the comps here where if you try to add that context people say will you read the fucking room like do you do you want to show some humanity here and sort of identify the moment in front every time there is a mass shooting in the united states this occurs uh now you can argue whether that is appropriate or not and certainly even on this podcast we've said well at some point you know america does need to grapple with gun violence you can talk about forest fires in canada and people being evacuated from communities opportunities that is pretty clearly tied to you know climate change overall hurricanes being strong nobody wants to hear after the hurricane that actually this is more likely to have occurred because of climate change because of our collective

Zain 21:42

collective inaction or whatnot yeah nobody

Corey 21:44

nobody wants to hear that

Corey 21:45

that i mean i think this is actually a fairly well-established rule context is unwelcome at moments of crisis what people are looking for in many ways it's not very different from like When you're talking to your spouse, they're looking for support. They're looking for you to show compassion to their particular set of pains, and they're looking for you to try to help as best you can. They are not looking for you to say, well, we ended up in this situation because of A, because of B, because of C. And that is true, even if A, B, and C are so fucking big, they're neon signs on the side of the wall.

Zain 22:19

just the reality of politics. It's so interesting, Carter, because I agree with Corey's analysis. I agree with Corey's advice as a practitioner. But there's also this, if you take a side based on an event, and other people, and especially with the demographic change in the courtroom, this might be a good time to talk about the demo changes in this country, are viewing this as a continuum, and you take a side on an event, that's

Zain 22:42

that's where I think the tension for political leaders lies. that they're following this rule, Carter, that I'm going to comment on the event, I'm going to read the room, I'm going to issue my support. But it's not like it doesn't come at a cost when they're being criticized for not reading, well, the historical context and the continuum that many are looking at this through.

Corey 23:03

yeah. And look, we talked a little bit of I want to talk about something we've talked about before, but apply it to this context. And during the Ukrainian, and the invasion of russia by ukraine on

Corey 23:13

on this podcast you and i were talking and you were you were kind of asking the point of question like me

Corey 23:20

zane i'm sorry we're i'm pointing to you but that's no way for you to even know let alone the audience know because we're on like three screens you asked the point of question zane you

Corey 23:30

know why why is this the thing we all care about and the entire world gets tied up in and not the many other tragedies with higher death death counts, in fact, in many cases. And I said then, and I believe it, it's

Corey 23:43

it's actually fairly understandable because of kind of the cultural connections we have to Ukraine, because of their place in the European community, because of their place in the history of the Western world, which we are a part of, right? And that is a shifting reality, but that is the reality we sit in right now. And particularly, when you think about Ukraine in a place like Alberta, significant Ukrainian population, as large as it gets outside of Ukraine. Maybe not true anymore after this most recent diaspora, but was certainly true before.

Corey 24:14

Now, the thing about Canada is our cultural ties and the stories that bind us are shifting to different parts of the world. And this is for fucking sure not all something that you can lens through religion. But let's talk a little bit about religion for a moment. In 1991, there were more practitioners of the Jewish faith in Canada than Muslim faith, by about four to three. It wasn't like a massive advantage, but there were more practitioners of the Jewish faith than Muslim faith. Fast forward to 2021, it's now five to one practitioners of the Muslim faith over the Jewish faith. In a young city like Calgary, 15

Corey 24:53

15 to one. You know, the demographics are shifting massively. And Zane, I was saying this to you before we hit record here, but we're getting to a place where there is probably more likelihood of you knowing somebody or being related to somebody in Gaza City than Tel Aviv, right? Those connections are shifting, and they're shifting rather significantly over a relatively short period of time historically. And so those worldviews and those cultural concerns and context are shifting too.

Corey 25:21

And let's be really fucking clear, there's a lot of history here. And you said it, and I agree with it. Let's not get into the analysis. We are not experts on the Middle East. but there is this this western tradition of viewing uh you know world war ii and the holocaust and you know the establishment of the state of israel and the immediate attacking of the state of israel that is kind of fading in history and that's fading culturally as different cultural groups come come kind of to the forefront of canadian uh conversation and so conversations are changing as well and it's really interesting to me what those consequences are if you play them forward and what kind of effort and work it will take to

Corey 25:58

maintain a different context carter i

Carter 26:01

i you know this just fascinating uh listening to this because there's

Carter 26:07

there's some there's some really interesting kind of understanding of how people react to information um because it turns out that we don't all react to the same facts the same way right your historical understanding of things your values over time dictate how you're going to respond to a piece of information and we'll i'll move it away from the middle east uh crisis because it's just too a little bit too dangerous but you know when we were dealing with uh oil and gas ceos the oil and gas ceos would say well we we create the jobs um because of the the oil and gas economy we create jobs across canada and that's good and i said to them well yeah

Carter 26:46

yeah i mean everybody's going to agree that factually you're correct you you You know, the oil sands does create jobs, but

Carter 26:54

but the way that other people respond to that fact is different, right? And so the facts of 1948 to 19, you know, 47 to 48, the Six-Day War, all of these facts are going to be interpreted by different people in different fashions. And that interpretation is unpredictable at the current moment, right? So this is forcing us, us being the political class, if you will, to dodge around the issues until we see exactly how the facts are going to be received. And it's actually, I don't know, I don't want to call it impressive. I'm not sure that that's the right word, but it is reflective of the changes

Carter 27:40

changes because we want to be reflective of our societal changes. We should be reflective of our societal changes. But how do we balance

Carter 27:50

balance these reflections of societal change with our former

Carter 27:54

former understanding of what is

Carter 27:58

is actually important to us as a culture? And I think that this is where we're dancing, man. This is where the dance happens. And it's going to be, there's

Carter 28:07

there's not going to be some

Carter 28:10

some sort of simple political

Carter 28:11

political statement that can be made that's going to be universally understood by the fullness of Canadians. This is our new reality. Or perhaps this is our old reality too, because it wasn't like we had a single uniform point of view necessarily at any given point. Well,

Zain 28:29

Well, Corey, jump in. I was just going to add, you know, just to kind of support Carter's point, you know, this confusion that politicians are having as well extends beyond the response of the first 24 hours, right? As these, if you want to call them counter protests, some may call them pro-Palestine protests, others have labeled them as pro-Hamas protests, whatever they are, the timing of them really kind of puts into jeopardy perhaps the pro-Palestinian movement in terms of what they were out there advocating for. um but politicians really were mealy-mouthed and confused on this until there was pushes to say well look at the timing of this even if this is pro-palestinian this is not making sense what are they out there celebrating right a little bit in poor taste i know i know and so and so you know for for those that that were even were looking to respond to this after they put out their initial statement and they you know they put it out and they said the response and they hoped that it would land there is going to be more of this there is going to be significantly more of this this is not like a one and done, we got through it this time, I read the tea leaves correctly, thank God, licked my finger, the wind blew the right way. There is going to be iteratively more of this, and we need to be tooled as both political practitioners and, frankly, as like citizens in terms of how we want to necessarily understand and digest these issues.

Corey 29:43

Well, so that is the ingredient of time, which I

Zain 29:45

I want to talk about speed and time. So go ahead, this is my next thing on my list.

Corey 29:49

Well, so there is the political political conversations to come, as well as the past 96 hours at this point that have occurred. Because Carter, you did say people are, and Zane, you sort of agreed, a little confused about this. I think that's true. It's more true, I think, in the way you said it, Zane. People have somewhat gravitated to the position of, no, we just need to be very strong against terror. We need to be very strong against Hamas's actions there. And that is ultimately where the politicians have landed, I

Corey 30:19

actually think 12 hours later than they should have, you know, but anyways, that's in some ways a fascinating reflection of some of those, you know, changes on the issues that have occurred that are, you know, kind of floating out there and almost kind of polluting judgment is my personal view on it there. But there is, there is the issue of time the other way, like you can make these bold statements, you can make these dramatic statements, and then reality is going to hit you in the face the next day in terms of now, Now what do you say about the rally, right? Now what do you say about – we're at a moment in time right now where – What do you say right now where

Zain 30:53

where – like I don't know if this is where you're going, so not to interrupt you. I apologize. But like when the death toll of civilians in Gaza outstrips – if I don't mean this to make a comparison – outstrips the death toll of Hamas' terror attack against Israelis. Are you now going to be – I think the answer is going to be no because we've never seen it in this country. but it opens up that same fucking question of like you took a bold stance you got through it but did you so

Corey 31:19

so that is where i was going i do want to say right now before i go a moment further there is a big difference in intent like again i'm asked targeted civilians you know but but you're right i mean and we we do know that the history of these uh you know these uh offensive and counter-offensive thrust and parry is often that it's the civilians in gaza who end up disproportionately affected in the long term again there are questions of intent and targeting and i am not trying to diminish any of that and i am not trying to kind of prejudge that those things are going to happen hopefully the idf does a very good job of avoiding civilian casualties but the uh you know history has sort of trained us that that's not likely to be the case and we will likely get to another place and have you gone so far out one way that

Corey 32:06

that you are basically going to be pushing yourself or you're going to be demanded by many people in this country to make strong wrong statements on

Corey 32:12

on the other side, too. And so these are

Zain 32:15

are fascinating questions. Especially to your earlier point, as the ground shifts demographically. If you, as a politician, to Carter's frame, want to reflect versus lead on certain things, if the grounds are shifting demographically, and more, to kind of use my analogy, are viewing this as a continuum, and may already have, to Carter's point, figured

Zain 32:33

figured out their position and are not kind of looking to oscillate on it every time there's another, you know, unfortunate milestone or in the historical continuum, then you're going to have to figure out how you, you know, deal with this in a real meaningful way. And it just seems like we just don't have the political tools, the political sort of patience to be able to do that. And I might be asking for too much here, Carter, am I?

Carter 32:56

Yeah, you are. Because I mean, at the end of the day, you know, we're

Carter 33:00

we're trying to, so move forward, right? So time is everything, right? We're We're responding to the incident in this particular moment,

Carter 33:09

okay? That's kind of what we've decided is the smartest move for a political actor to take in this particular moment. Respond to the specific. Okay, great. There's going to be a specific tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. Will we respond with the same terms and the same outrage if the circumstances are similar? Now, we're not going to see the kidnapping of people. We're not going to necessarily see. but we will see something vaguely resembling an overreaction i

Carter 33:38

don't mean to cast the the and the example i'm going to use of the overreaction the united states after september 11th we

Carter 33:45

we had all the wars all the wars started after that and it was fine because it was deemed to be by the people that we liked by the people that we knew we wanted to see action we wanted They wanted to see activity.

Carter 33:58

That was part and parcel of the next step, the demand for retribution. Do we expect, do we anticipate, would we even ask for Israel to react differently in their own context now? And I'm not sure that we should. And that, but then if we're in our react to the situation in the moment piece, we

Carter 34:25

we are going to be entering into a reaction on top of a reaction on top of reaction. And how do you deal with that moving forward? word um

Carter 34:34

i think that that becomes the the

Carter 34:38

real challenge of this is that your

Carter 34:40

your your reaction you're being in the moment now will dictate that you're going to be in the moment in the future and the future case based on previous examples not necessarily israel's right

Carter 34:52

right but on future examples of nation states that have had terrorist impact or terrorist attacks is going to be perhaps perhaps, perhaps disproportionate. Now what? How do you respond to that? And I think that that's where, gosh,

Carter 35:07

gosh, everybody's really struggling with this, because it's not just about the timeline that we're in currently. It's the timeline that we're going to be in tomorrow. And

Carter 35:15

And that timeline is fucking tricky.

Zain 35:19

Well, Corey, let me go back to this. Carter's taken me exactly where I wanted to go.

Zain 35:25

If you have viewed this through the prism of an event versus the historical context, which which you've been taught as a politician to respond to the moment, right? We've talked about this for the last 35 minutes.

Zain 35:36

If you have chosen a side and you've strongly attached yourself to that side,

Zain 35:43

any off-ramps for context down the road? Is there any off-ramps for not even fundamentally switching your position, but another event happened? And I've been taught to view this through the prism of the next event. So I strand strongly with, insert

Zain 35:57

insert country here, right? And we may not see it through Palestine because of the historical context and kind of where our politics land, but even moving it out of here as a political sort of strategy and practitionership, strong stance on an event, how many off-ramps do you have as time goes on, as we've just been talking about, to add context and potentially maneuver if you've been taught to view it through a prism of an event, not a historical context? text.

Corey 36:24

Yeah, well, look, on this specific situation that's in front of us right now, I don't think that we are going to get to a point where we're like, you know what, Israel versus Hamas, I don't know where I feel on this anymore. We're going to still be on the side of Israel in that particular one here. I know you're trying to broaden the issue here. I want to say that at the very least, there are bigger challenges and bigger kind of context in terms of Palestine and the two-state solution. And it's an interesting question through that lens and what might occur in the future. And And let's be really clear, like, a month ago, we were all kind of pissed at Netanyahu, right, for what he was doing in Israel to kind of civil society in Israel. So, you know, point taken, but, you know, I think that because the politicians have been so emphatic about this is about Hamas, I think they're somewhat inoculated

Corey 37:13

inoculated on that. They're

Zain 37:14

They're framing and conflating. We're seeing a bit of that, right? Like, they're framing this as Hamas, but there's also a conflation now, which leads me to this next point, Carter. Carter, how far back do you think this has set any sort of pro-Palestinian movement, perhaps, in the Western world from this context? I'm just kind of curious to get your read as we live it, and that's never a good idea to, like, read the historical context while you live in it.

Zain 37:37

But I'm not even going to ask you if it set it back, because I'm convinced it has. I want to know to what degree, because I feel like even a couple years ago, I think we recorded a podcast about this, the ability to say, you know, that anti-Zionism is not being anti-Semitic, that line of, you know, thinking, especially after what happened in 21 and 22 became very popular, right, very culturally and socially possible

Zain 38:05

possible to say without the repercussions perhaps that one would face in the past. I'm not sure if that's going to be the case anymore when so many of our elected officials public figures are locking in um on based on this event horrible terrorist event to be absolutely clear but

Zain 38:23

but there but but but how how far back has that set the the sort of more pro-palestine movement uh in in the western democracies in your mind i

Carter 38:32

i mean i'm i'm not sure it's at i mean this is where it gets really complicated i'm not sure it sets it back at all because it wasn't like it was there was a viable discussion happening in any case There were people talking about it. Certainly we talked about it. We thought, you know, there are reasonable people who had reasonable ideas about how this would be a potential solution, that this is something that could work. But those reasonable people and reasonable, you know, voices didn't have any of the power. And when you looked at where the power lie, there really just weren't a lot of people bringing

Carter 39:09

bringing home the idea that this was this was going to be part of a long-term solution uh when you watch what's happening with with saudi arabia the um the accords that trump pushed through um you know these were not movements

Carter 39:26

bring peace and justice uh to the palestinian people these were initiatives to kind of almost move past their plight and like all action these actions created an opposite reaction

Carter 39:45

that is always the fear when we deal with with international issues and international politics is that if we go back to our idea that all politics is local then these international actions

Carter 39:56

actions and these international pushes

Carter 40:00

pushes create outcomes that that are all

Carter 40:03

all too often just tragic. I mean, we appease Hitler. We, you know, we respond to, you know, we ignore Stalin. We walk past Rwanda because it's not something that's important to us. I mean, how many things

Carter 40:18

things have we, as the world, not just as a Canadian society, have we struggled with? And, you

Carter 40:27

you know, this is just another one that we can add to the list of failures. but this one, of course, continues as most of our other failures do as well. Corey,

Zain 40:36

Corey, your thoughts on this?

Corey 40:38

Well, let me take an optimist's view

Corey 40:41

And let's be really fucking clear. Like, Hamas

Corey 40:45

Hamas doesn't believe in a two-state solution. They believe in a one-state solution of a Palestine that pushes Israel into the sea.

Corey 40:52

Netanyahu doesn't seem very enthusiastic about a two-state solution. I think as a matter of state policy, that's basically the case here. so um you know i actually believe that uh this is a this is a terrible moment is a tragic moment there will be uh unacceptable loss of life uh brought on us by hamas's actions here but um i i am hoping that in the calm after the storm humanity wins and

Corey 41:20

and that people say okay you

Corey 41:23

you know know what the

Corey 41:23

the this extreme position of hamas brought nothing but grief and terror and you know the idea that we can just put aside the aspirations to live free and just for millions of people in gaza and the west bank this

Corey 41:39

this is an untenable situation it always has been uh and we need to find a clearer path forward here and the two-state solution may well have its day again because there there is no other choice. There is no other fucking choice. I mean, Israel can, you know, this is not a unique observation here, but if Israel is going to continue to be a democracy and a Jewish state, you

Corey 42:01

you need a two-state solution, because

Corey 42:03

because otherwise things kind of fall apart. One of those two will drop,

Corey 42:06

right? You are either going to have a democratic state where ultimately the Jewish population will be in the minority, or you will have a non-democratic state where where the majority of people are unable to vote and participate in meaningful ways. So we can't kick this can anymore. It's 30 years since the Oslo Accord.

Corey 42:24

This needs to be resolved. And, you know, I remain always the optimist saying that, you know, Hamas in particular, absolutely crashing out with their abhorrent worldview,

Corey 42:36

will maybe give us the space we need to find more meaningful solutions in the long term. I've

Zain 42:40

I've got three more lines of thinking, if I kind of go back to our broader question, which is the question Corey put on the table around like our domestic politics messaging statement strategy around that, Carter. I'm going to go down that path, okay? My first sort of stream that I want to talk about,

Zain 42:56

three left on the board, is are we perhaps

Zain 43:02

overanalyzing and giving too much fault for making a mistake, coming back, iterating, ending at the right spot versus

Zain 43:09

versus starting at maybe not the so right spot? Give me your thoughts on on that 100 yeah okay later yeah so

Corey 43:14

so we are we are 100 are and i will say these are tricky fucking issues and there are there is a massive learning curve and there's a massive relearning curve even if you felt like you were pretty on top of these issues because the situation constantly evolves right and uh it can be as simple as how do you refer to this situation is it in israel is it in israel and palestine is israel and gaza israel gaza in the west bank the middle east you know like this is fucking tough and people really sweat these things how

Zain 43:44

how do you do you say violence or terrorism do you do you absolutely i

Zain 43:48

do you mention the content like we've talked about mentioning the content you mentioned that do you not mention the context

Corey 43:53

do you do like how do you do these are really tough and people are humans and people are going to make mistakes i actually afford them a lot of public grace i'm not trying to take a round out of olivia chow the reason why i wanted to talk about this so desperately is because the

Corey 44:07

the mistakes people are making and the the trip ups and the stacking of messages that tells us something about the situation overall and the politics and how they're shifting the environment country yeah yeah

Corey 44:17

and i think that's really important to keep an eye on and that's a really fascinating thing to discuss because it is a significant issue at moments like this but you got to give these people some grace they are they are

Zain 44:28

are trying to figure this thing out i think carter might have a different i have actually a follow-up for carter in particular but give me your take carter and i've got a follow Oh, I'm

Carter 44:35

I'm just trying. I mean, I love the optimism. I love, you know, I want to live in the world that Corey's in. I mean, it's fantastic, but that's not the world that we live in. You guys share a household now, so you

Carter 44:44

yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I'm going to go to his place. We're going to hang out. But here's the thing. Well, you can

Corey 44:47

can come a foot in the door. We established that. we

Carter 44:50

we do not live in a system you're saying oh wouldn't it be nice you know like we've got the suddenly we've got the the uh beach boys playing wouldn't it be nice this is not the reality we don't get second chances in this we the people have decided the mob rules they they they jump on us for whatever decision is made um with with

Corey 45:12

little don't love the mob but i take your point yeah like so the consensus has shifted hard in one direction and

Carter 45:18

and and it will shift again and we'll shift again and we'll shift again because that is the nature of the human condition so we can't just simply sit back and say well you know it would be would be great if if this didn't come with consequences if if olivia chow was given the opportunity to revise her statement and create a better to to just say you know what i'm learning here we're all learning i'm a mayor of toronto i'm not a fuck a fucking foreign diplomat trying to figure out the

Carter 45:45

intricacies of the the middle east which doctoral

Carter 45:49

doctoral students would tell you they don't have necessarily the greatest grasp on because it's constantly shifting and it's a complex fucking issue so yeah cory i'd love to live in the world where you are where you know people are granted this this grace people are granted this opportunity but that's not the world in which we live the world in which we live says hit the fucking ball the right way the first time or we will crush you i

Zain 46:13

i have a i have a that is

Carter 46:15

is where we are right now is that people are getting crushed by this issue we are dancing around because we're afraid none of us want to get crushed we're trying to do the best we can in an absolutely impossible situation where you've got groups of people who are killing each other yeah um for

Carter 46:33

for you know i'm a fucking atheist i don't understand any of this stuff you

Zain 46:38

you think you can understand it it's like you know yeah you don't need

Carter 46:41

need to you don't need to can't understand being

Carter 46:43

being that committed to an idea it's

Corey 46:46

it's not i mean it's not you you're grossly overly simplifying but i'm

Corey 46:49

not oh my god because i can't

Corey 46:51

understand a hundred percent are no

Carter 46:53

no i'm not i

Carter 46:54

can't understand it i

Corey 46:57

i i take that you can't understand that that was baseline coming into this steven but like

Carter 47:02

like oh my god oh

Corey 47:05

fucking hell okay i mean i we are very much in the moment right now zane has mentioned that a few times yeah yeah yeah but

Corey 47:13

as of this moment we haven't seen like you talk about like people being crushed we haven't actually seen that we haven't seen careers go down at this moment we haven't seen anything like that and and yeah these are tough fucking issues and emotions are running super high because terrorists just pulled off the biggest terrorist attack on the jewish people since like the holocaust okay so like Like, emotions are naturally running high.

Corey 47:39

People are going to make mistakes. They're going to make mistakes. That's

Carter 47:43

That's all. No, I'm not saying they're not going to make

Corey 47:44

make mistakes. Carter, Carter. They're

Carter 47:45

They're absolutely going to make—but we don't have—society does not have the grace right now. This isn't what I'm advocating for, Corey. I'm simply reflecting back. He may not be wrong, Corey. Society does not have the grace within them at this moment to deal with the nuance. Do you mean society or do you mean Twitter?

Zain 48:01

Just so I'm absolutely clear. No, I think society.

Carter 48:03

think this is society.

Carter 48:05

I do. Because I think that the media, you

Carter 48:09

you know, I mean, how do people get information, right? And how people get information is through social media at this moment. And because more people are on Twitter and more people are on Facebook, more people are, I mean, there's a great number of people who won't even know this is happening. And they might be the happiest of all of us. So

Zain 48:27

So let me ask you this, Carter. Let me ask you this. I've got two streams of thought. One is because you've put it on the table now.

Zain 48:36

What if you, there seems to be an emerging checklist of things, let's just talk about this issue at hand, okay? An

Zain 48:42

An emerging checklist of things you need to include in one statement.

Zain 48:45

Talk about Hamas, talk about terror, you need to talk about standing with Israel, right? To kind of converge where we've converged over the last 72 plus hours, there might be a few more sort of items on the checklist, that's where we're at.

Zain 48:59

What if you mention none of those, right? right? But you put out a statement. And this is a real example, but I don't want to call out the politician. And

Zain 49:09

And you haven't taken it down.

Zain 49:11

You've doubled down. You've done the double down on this. And so I want to talk about the grace that one gets of holding their position, not correcting, because to Carter's point, like, and we've talked about this in the past, right? Like, you sometimes do get called out more for, like, being the person who, you know, swapped your statement out for something else changed course didn't know i want to just talk about this notion of the double down in terms of you know this is where i stand it might be missing some of the elements we've societally converged on but this is where i'm at and i'm comfortable with it and i know there's a conviction element to this that i'm not even addressing like you know this person might have a conviction that like you know this is what i want to say and i don't give a fuck and i'm willing to lose political capital on this like i'm spending it and I'm fine. But I'm just kind of curious your take on the double down in this as a raw political move in this particular moment we find ourselves in Carter.

Carter 50:04

I think that, you know, if you're taking a principled position, and you're principled position, you know, like, I really think that the double downs available, but I think the double down should be mostly available for the simplest of statements, right? There is a very simple statement that you can double down on and that simple statement is this is wrong right this is just simply wrong and you

Carter 50:31

know there's much that can be gained from a discussion about well which elements are wrong well

Carter 50:38

so many elements are wrong so

Carter 50:40

so many elements are wrong and we are

Carter 50:43

required i think as a society to deal with these elements that are wrong and

Carter 50:48

and and then we we could have a conversation about that i'm just not sure like i personally think that the the attack was grotesque i think that the uh and i i think that i don't know how anybody else would have a different position on that but

Carter 51:04

i i also you know i'm not saying this person

Zain 51:06

person i'm not saying this person does they just but they haven't used no i'm trying to put parameters you know those are exactly i get what yeah

Carter 51:13

i'm trying to set some parameters around what i think you could i

Carter 51:20

I don't think you could double down on the indefensible. I think that the double down on the indefensible would be career

Zain 51:28

Corey, which brings me to the last sort of thing I wanted to talk about. And for anyone who's made it to the 50-minute mark, I wish I talked about— We're at 50 minutes?

Carter 51:34

minutes? God, it feels like it's been four hours.

Zain 51:37

Yeah, Carter's been— My

Carter 51:39

My stomach's in knots. I'm a disaster.

Zain 51:41

I imagine being an elected official, Carter. Which

Zain 51:44

Which kind of brings me to this point. Corey. Yeah. The strategy of silence, the

Zain 51:50

strategy of not saying jack fucking shit, who

Zain 51:55

who is it available to, and is it actually good strategy here? Because I'm not sure if there's folks out there auditing who said something who isn't. I'm sure there are. Oh, for sure. I'm sure there are, right? Oh, yeah.

Zain 52:07

is the cost—there's a cost there, maybe, of silence. Is the political cost of saying, I either don't have the education on this, I don't know where to stand, Not saying anything actually more digestible than going through a situation where you have to rectify, look for off ramps, do all the things we've been talking about for the last 50 minutes. The strategy of silence. I'm curious who it's available to.

Corey 52:30

So, you know, it's interesting. And you've heard me say this before. Not communicating is often an underappreciated option. You know, especially politicians feel this desperate desire to hear their own voice on every issue, even when nobody's fucking asking them.

Corey 52:46

Yeah, podcasters too. Everyone was dying to hear what the two of us thought about this.

Zain 52:54

fucking it up? Yeah, exactly.

Corey 52:57

Yes, said three people.

Corey 53:01

you know, it's tough because I think on an issue like this, not quite the same. People are looking to be like, I want to know that you're with me and you're with Israel at a time. You think there's

Zain 53:10

there's like an audit? like there's an audit of like where i mean i don't want to

Corey 53:14

to make it so i think people are noticing who is talking and who is like not talking because it is one of those things the equivalent truly would be like after 9-11 if a congressman was just like silent on the matter like that's not gonna fucking fly right this is a significant issue uh if you if you happen to be i

Zain 53:31

i mentioned at the same time there's probably okay

Zain 53:34

okay 300 what 38 mps that we have sure

Zain 53:37

sure i bet you there's at least 50 that haven't said jack shit yeah

Corey 53:40

yeah and you know what so here's the thing i want to say that public's expectation might be that they make a statement i actually don't know if that's a reasonable expectation of the public for all of the reasons we've talked about about these being complicated issues uh the odds of you saying something that's just going to be stupid and you don't even know it because you don't know enough about it and you know frankly and by complicated at it i don't mean is it complicated that you condemn hamas no that's that's pretty simple but the other things we're talking about the words you use how do you describe the territories all of these things right

Zain 54:12

right sure i mean

Corey 54:14

mean we have this weird culture especially with twitter or x whatever we're calling it here where it's effectively give me your take right now and it better not be fucking wrong and if your take is like in those formative moments and like everybody has sort of morphed into a consensus over here i'm going to come back to your take from two days ago and dunk all over you and say what a garbage take yeah what a fucking asshole this individual was you you

Zain 54:36

you make a good point about how how these takes have to also age in a way right

Zain 54:41

right like it's it's it's wild uh carter strategy of silence what's your thought on it if a politician let's say let's just take all the premiers off the table right let's take all the the heads of the the major federal parties off the table but

Corey 54:55

but let's say an opposition leader in

Zain 54:58

somewhere said do i i actually have to say anything no one's asking me for shit do i you know do i have to say anything

Zain 55:05

i'm curious what would you say i

Carter 55:06

i i think the opposition leader needs to say something i think the you

Carter 55:11

you know provincial leaders provincial opposition leaders mayors i think all needed to say something because there was an audience demanding um for lack of a better term direction um you know where are we what are we going to be saying about this which direction should we be going and i think that that was that's healthy i think um if you were a counselor you

Carter 55:34

know you have you have options you you don't necessarily need to be in the vanguard of this you can sit back and wait for it to unfold in front of you and there is a very solid set of reasons why that should happen why you should take that position um you

Zain 55:50

that position of silence until yeah And you're saying councilor, to be clear, you're talking about municipal politics, city councilor.

Carter 55:59

like, are we really expecting our, you know, elected municipal politicians to have a... I don't know, are we? That's

Carter 56:04

legitimate question. I would hope not. I would certainly hope not. I mean... But we are. But we are. But this is the thing, are we? We are.

Corey 56:09

You know we are. Right?

Carter 56:10

Right? I mean, you know we are. I'm not sure that we are. I don't think we should. It's

Zain 56:15

It's actually a question...

Carter 56:16

question... I think we are. I

Zain 56:16

I think it's a question in earnest I have for you guys. Like, who does this strategy of silence apply to, if at all? like that would be the second part of the question i

Carter 56:23

i would think that the

Carter 56:25

the strategy of silence also would depend on whether or not you expect to get re-elected again you

Carter 56:31

know like if you're if you're actively in the arena and you're going to stay in the arena then you probably need to do something but

Carter 56:39

think it's asking off a lot to be an elected counselor counselor who uh is expected to understand the nuances of the middle east cory

Corey 56:50

yeah well and again you don't you don't need a ton like that's you don't need to understand the nuances the middle east you you make a strong statement about the specific condemning the specific which is hamas terror attack people

Corey 57:01

people killed children killed people kidnapped great

Carter 57:04

great what are you going to do next week what are you going to do next week when when israel has responded wanted and it is deemed by whomever to be too much what are you going to do each

Carter 57:16

each week each day brings new challenge for that strategy carter's

Zain 57:20

carter's this is what

Zain 57:22

wish i would know but carter makes a good point i wish i'd articulated this better like because

Zain 57:28

because i've also said earlier on this podcast that like there's going to be another statement you need to make and another one and another one if you kind of make a statement yeah

Zain 57:36

kind of saying can

Zain 57:38

can you are we in a position right now like as a city council let's go back to this to be like not my arena not my lane can you get away with that cory this

Zain 57:46

this is not potholes in transit no

Corey 57:49

no one's asking if you're the reeve of some random town okay you cannot as a city counselor that represents diverse communities no

Corey 57:58

i think it's just not gonna

Carter 57:59

gonna happen when did we get here no one's asking no

Corey 58:04

we always been here

Corey 58:05

we've always been here listen

Carter 58:07

i don't know we've always been listen a

Corey 58:09

a couple of weeks ago i said this and i'll say it again canadian

Corey 58:12

canadian politics like we talk about all politics being local global politics is local to canada it's true and and like people expect their counselors when we brought up

Zain 58:21

calisthenics thing i think this is where you're talking about it right

Corey 58:23

right this is exactly

Carter 58:24

oh my god that feels like we're going too far it feels like we're going too far

Corey 58:28

far listen i'm not saying i think it's a great idea that we're looking for counselors views on the middle east i'm saying that's the expectation yeah but

Carter 58:36

I thought that was

Corey 58:37

position a few minutes

Carter 58:37

minutes ago, and it was much better when it was my position.

Carter 58:41

And now you're taking it, and it's pissing me off.

Zain 58:44

Corey, the last thing I wanted to discuss on these statements, speed.

Zain 58:49

speed. We talked about time. Talk to me about speed. Have we overcorrected on quick?

Zain 58:55

Like, what would you advise politicians as a result of this? I guess this is my question. Like, would you say, you know what? what, if you are active on X, you're going to be caught in the trap of speed. I'm just making this up, but like, go with me. No, you're right. You're going to be caught in the trap of speed, and I don't want you to be caught in that trap anymore. There's more social license than ever before to call this place toxic and filled with misinformation. Get off X, and your new strategy buys you more time so that you don't have to be in the moment. There's no demand of that sort of thing. I'm just kind of curious if this is setting some parameters where we are culturally with speed, because I I think some of the mistakes, I'm putting mistakes in quotes for those that can't see it, around folks that made statements or that needed to course correct or needed to kind of figure out where the pulse of the country was, was that they wanted to do it quickly. They were being demanded to do it quickly. So talk to me where we are culturally on speed right now.

Corey 59:48

Yeah, well, look, I think that it has always been a complicated algebraic equation as to speed and content, right? And there is a general rule we've talked about, which is the quote, later it is, the more thorough it's expected to be, right? Like the more specific. I do think areas like X, you know, Facebook, Instagram have kind of broken those equations a bit. And now there's an expectation of being thorough and fast because the conversation moves so bloody quickly.

Corey 1:00:15

Could you say, I'm just going to get off X, it's toxic anyways, I don't want to be there? Well, yeah, I mean, that's certainly probably the best defensive strategy, but defensive strategies don't tend to win politics in the long run yeah right and i think that that's the reality that people are crashing up against there and so you're gonna have to you're gonna have to get a lot better at thinking a lot clearer and a lot simpler about these things and you know i'm actually a little pissed at myself that in the last round where i said like we i don't know if it's a good idea if counselors should be expected to be experts in the middle east that's not even what we're fucking talking about i think it's not much of a stretch to say counselors should be able to to condemn terror attacks okay but like you know the overall point lands that we ask people to go outside of their lanes an awful lot but uh but that's just the reality of politics this day that's been the reality of politics always people don't care about what order of government you are carter tells the story about joe clark being asked to fix street lights or whatever the fuck it was and

Zain 1:01:12

and that's just reality and he

Carter 1:01:14

he didn't do it that's what it's going to be known for you

Carter 1:01:15

you guys don't even pay attention to my fucking you know what cory's

Zain 1:01:18

cory's cory's reminded me of something carter I want to get your thing on speed and I'm going to blow past the hour here anyways, um, which I've been doing consistently, as you know. Yeah. Yeah. For years. For years. Hey Carter, give me your take on speed. And then I want to go back to something Corey mentioned.

Carter 1:01:33

I mean, speed kills. Um, and I mean that literally you, you, if you're out there and you want your political career to survive, um, you need to be able to go fast without crashing. crashing and the

Carter 1:01:48

truth is the faster you go the more likely you are to crash we used to have back in the day when we talked about a 24-hour news cycle we we used to ask reporters you know what's your deadline there

Corey 1:01:59

no deadline anymore the

Carter 1:02:00

the the deadline is now because everything is now what did you put out now right you you have no time to to think about nuance you have no time to think about what the longer uh you know what we're gonna what we're gonna do next week because because today is everything. Everything is wrapped up in this particular moment. And frankly,

Carter 1:02:22

frankly, you just don't get another chance. You have to take this moment and push forward.

Carter 1:02:27

And I think that that's a real problem, but it is what it is. So if you're going to be in this game, you must respond quickly. If you're not responding quickly, you're not going to succeed. seed um if you do respond quickly then understand that that response might be what ultimately undoes you and that's just the cost of doing business in a news cycle that exists second to second and and you know it's been interesting when listening to a few of our older episodes if you fell behind and it's amazing how transient these issues are right things that we were all invested in in the moment is so transient and so

Carter 1:03:08

so you've got to respond in that transient moment or you don't get to be in that moment

Carter 1:03:15

it's all about speed almost all the time yeah

Corey 1:03:19

yeah you know i carter you're old enough to remember as well zane you're almost certainly not because i'm barely old enough to remember but there was a time in public relations in in kind of government communications communications public or you know political communications you might see your phone ring at four o'clock and it'd be a reporter and you're like oh fuck i like i don't you know get the message i don't want to talk to them about that i need some time to think about it and you could legitimately the next morning at 8 a.m say like hey kelly sorry i left the office a little bit early i just got your message when i got in today here's our answer you in the meantime have had 16 hours to think about it or whatever it is nobody buys that shit anymore everybody knows the first thing you look at is your phone in the morning the last thing you look at is your phone at night your email is perpetually with you texts are perpetually with you you are always connected and you are always expected to give comment and so it has changed the game pretty dramatically and it has become a lot less thoughtful but it's also meant that people who are quick on their feet and are able to say things that sound meaningful without actually being too much locking in

Corey 1:04:25

that's a skill set that's very high in demand i

Zain 1:04:27

i wonder if there is and this is expanding beyond what we're talking about but i wonder the question that comes to mind here is i wonder if there's room in our political environment for like the analog politician anymore i'm

Zain 1:04:39

i'm no yeah i don't

Corey 1:04:41

think like i i think it's a funny even if it's

Zain 1:04:43

it's like a ironic counter cultural thing to be like i'm not going to be on the platforms and i'm going to respond during business like it's I've got a pager, but it's just numeric.

Zain 1:04:54

numeric. It's not even alphanumeric. The business hours

Zain 1:04:55

hours politics. I actually legitimately think someone running with that brand, Carter, there

Zain 1:05:01

there is an interest. It's a later conversation. I don't know what the fuck I'm doing talking about it here. What is it? No, no, but there is something really interesting about that, though. We

Carter 1:05:09

We have some politicians like that that have been in place forever. Not just because they're old. I don't mean just because they're old. Peter DeMong is an analog politician. but he's also doesn't give a shit about whether or not he gets reelected i mean someone's not taking another step up okay okay there's no one no one else can do that i

Zain 1:05:29

i actually i actually want to go to this last thing um because the this is this was the third last thing uh that's now the last thing yeah i mean i

Carter 1:05:37

i gotta take a nervous shit after this are we gonna this

Zain 1:05:39

this is this is probably the most uh controversial of the lot oh you want to do this oh

Zain 1:05:44

we've given advice to politicians give advice to someone else here carter

Zain 1:05:48

carter it's me oh

Zain 1:05:51

i'm a quasi public muslim figure yeah

Zain 1:05:55

yeah i have no idea what the

Zain 1:05:56

the fuck to say i'm actually like i'm just i'm bringing you in on this like

Zain 1:06:01

like i what the fuck right um i have sympathy to the white guys

Carter 1:06:06

guys and ask the white guys for

Zain 1:06:07

for the free palestine movement you guys know where i stand i mean i'm i'm happy to This is

Zain 1:06:12

is a terrorist attack that happened. I have unbelievable hurt, grief, alignment in sort of, you know, my perspective and sorrow for what's happened to so many innocent people.

Zain 1:06:25

But I'm not in a position to kind of align myself with the broader Israeli movement right now, knowing that locks me in to something that is antithetical if I'm looking at this from a continuum perspective. perspective.

Zain 1:06:39

Go for a walk with me. I'm putting my perspective out. You don't have to do anything of your own, right? This is who I am. I'm fully this. I have unbelievable sympathy for my Jewish friends. I don't know if I should say anything to them. I don't know if I should put up anything online. And guess what? I think there's thousands of people like me right now, all across the Western world, who don't know what to do. And I don't even take the quasi-public stuff out of it.

Corey 1:07:04

Yeah, no, I think you're right. if

Zain 1:07:05

if i'm a city counselor i'm expected to put out a statement are

Zain 1:07:10

are are we expected to put out a statement like seriously am i in particular expected to put out a statement because i just so happen to be muslim like this is a a question i have been grappling with all fucking weekend texting people most people have been like i'll just talk to folks privately i mean we've got this platform i don't even know if this is a good idea to put this out there i don't you know i i feel like you know to carter's earlier point hopefully there's some grace for it but i just I just don't know what to do at this moment. And I bet there's thousands of people like me.

Corey 1:07:39

yeah so you know boy

Corey 1:07:41

boy zane i that is ultimately a

Corey 1:07:44

a a very personal thing but you know i would say there's there's another interesting thing that we haven't really talked about and you kind of touched on it right at the end here which is the demand for statements the demand for words yes the words you say to many zane and i believe this mean a lot less than the actions you have and do and what you say to those who are impacted and who are grieving right now and who are hurting right now and so i do think that ultimately it starts with your personal connections and talking to the people in your life that you care about who are hurting and who are thinking about these things and are feeling rather traumatized by it all and kind of fuck the crowd like fuck the crowd who the fuck cares if you put a statement out on x that says oh i feel this way or that way yeah and

Corey 1:08:26

and try to summarize and i'm not talking about your good

Zain 1:08:28

good point yeah 280 characters

Corey 1:08:32

the very complicated feelings you can feel that are rooted in ultimately a horror of this terrorist act but knowing that like the the broader issue of palestinian statehood is is an unsettled one and an unsettling one for many so like i mean fuck fuck the people who are looking for that talk to the people you know and care about and offer support and compassion as you can we don't need to we don't need to play theater for x yeah yeah

Zain 1:08:58

yeah that's my as individuals and and i think that's a really good message for a lot of people carter

Zain 1:09:03

carter any comments on this i'm gonna to layer one more on to expand it beyond me because i don't like much attention on this pod even though i take up maybe 60 of the airtime 60

Zain 1:09:12

yeah um i mean harder stats are more like 73 but that's have we evolved in terms of what's the rule for a company these days like i this harkens back to the blm sort of era where like everyone was doing black squares and statements this seems to be another statement like like my sort of cultural moment if i can kind of call it of that i know those are not the right words but talk to me about that as well like where are the calculus there is if you're if you're a company doing business if you're an institution doing business um where have we landed i'm

Carter 1:09:46

i'm intrigued by that framing um if

Carter 1:09:50

if you're a company doing business and just doing your thing i just you know i i'm i'm trying to relate this back because Because it's not like we are devoid of situations where, you

Carter 1:10:00

you know, Muslims have been attacked. We're not devoid of situations where, you know, basically every ethnicity, every group has suffered, period. Because we are, we

Carter 1:10:15

we as humanity causes suffering upon others, right? Right. So none of us should own the suffering of any particular group except that suffering that we create. So, you know.

Carter 1:10:31

How we empathize with groups, how we empathize with those who are suffering is entirely of our own situation.

Carter 1:10:38

situation. The empathy doesn't need to be contained. The empathy, because what needs to be contained is hate. What needs to be controlled is distrust. What needs to be unbridled and allowed is empathy and love and trust. And I think that when you come from that space, you can have the empathy that says, you know, this terrorist action was a problem. And I can also have the empathy for the two million people who are living on the Gaza Strip and the millions more who are without homes and the millions of people who died in the Holocaust. My empathy knows no bounds. My empathy knows no bounds. And I think that that's where, if we can get to that place, then your reaction, Zane, does not need to be curtailed because your reaction comes from a place of empathy. thing

Zain 1:11:35

did the edible kick in like i'm

Zain 1:11:37

i'm gonna episode title my empathy knows no bounds carter

Zain 1:11:40

carter jesus carter uh just just on the record always has been a friend of the jewish people and we know that and that has always been like calling

Zain 1:11:49

that's good love the love brother love the love that's good uh cory any any thoughts on institutions right now i know this is probably a whole episode of on its own but

Zain 1:11:57

but in terms of very well yeah yeah your thoughts on this and and and advice i guess in some ways yeah

Corey 1:12:03

yeah well you need to be really clear on what you're commenting on and so this does take us back to the specific issue of the the

Corey 1:12:10

the terror attack but you've got to be mindful that just because you're really clear on it doesn't mean that your entire audience of consumers is going to play ball and

Corey 1:12:17

and is willing to compartmentalize the way you are and isn't isn't interested in talking about kind of the chain before and the chain that may to come Right. And so as a company, that is that is a very tough thing to do. And when you talk about silence as a strategy, I

Corey 1:12:34

I would say that's

Corey 1:12:37

that's particularly the reason we want politicians to do it is because they represent us. They're supposed to support us. They're supposed to be there for us. I don't need the brand of ramen noodles I buy to support me and be there for me. And you're not fucking adding anything to the conversation in many cases. And

Zain 1:12:52

And it seems so one-sided in BLM, in that sense where it just became obvious that you had to do it. But this is different.

Corey 1:13:00

I'm more interested, again, in, like, I think these corporations should have meaningful outreach to their employees, to their suppliers, to the people they do business with, and should kind of spare whether we think we need to know what the Weetabix brand's mascot thinks about these things. That's

Carter 1:13:15

That's just not, again, in any way, shape, or form, the reality in which we live. I went to, as you guys know, unsuccessfully buy a new microphone.

Corey 1:13:25

Yeah, you fucking... On

Carter 1:13:27

On the Best Buy door are the logos of the groups that they support. And those logos of the groups that they support may have some detrimental impact with some small groups. But they felt the pressure that if they didn't put those symbols in their windows, if those symbols weren't there then obviously they would have turned away some subset of their of their uh their constituency whatever that constituency is so we are pretending like the only people with constituency um are the politicians well in

Carter 1:14:06

society if you do not stand and take a position then you know and whether it was like caused

Carter 1:14:11

caused by you too or caused by i don't know i don't know what the causal element is but right now everybody's taking a position on everything and i'm not sure that that's bad i'm not sure that that's good so

Corey 1:14:24

so so listen that is like i talked a bit about like demographics i talked about time i talked about these things affecting the way we approach these things i never did get to my third which is people's views of values and you know their understanding of issues and how they now expect the, you know, kind of like personal worldviews to be carried along and be more consistent than we expected in the past. Because you said this, Stephen, like effectively, we used to kind of just sort of hand off things like foreign affairs to elected officials, other parts of our brain, and we just didn't worry about it very much here. But I'm ultimately a cynic

Corey 1:15:00

cynic when it comes to corporations. And corporations decide to support things because they are either marketing to their employees or they are marketing to consumers or they are marketing to shareholders and that's kind of the end of the list like i just don't believe that corporations which are just constructs can be good or evil i think that they're just money-making machines and they optimize towards that and

Corey 1:15:25

and that's not to say i have a problem with corporations i just don't think that sounds like you

Carter 1:15:28

you have a little problem it feels

Zain 1:15:29

feels like you got the biggest i don't think they're

Corey 1:15:31

they're good i think they're non-moral you know i think they are non-moral the reason

Zain 1:15:35

reason the reason i brought up blm right was was when i say it's one side it was both one side on the event in

Zain 1:15:41

in the in the event that happened that triggered but also on this continuum and i think there's many people here in this particular situation as we've discussed the events i think is so clear right in terms of where you need to stand but it's that do you make a statement on that broader sort of historical continuum which gets very complicated as we've chatted about okay

Zain 1:15:59

okay i'm gonna leave that there let's move it on to our final segment or over under in our lightning round steven carter we're still

Zain 1:16:04

that steven carter um steven carter have we successfully made it through uh this issue this is another steven carter prediction don't

Zain 1:16:11

make a prediction we

Carter 1:16:13

we have not through this and i i suspect that one of the three of us is going to get raked for something that we said today probably

Carter 1:16:20

probably going to be me yes

Zain 1:16:21

yes it's probably yeah it's it's probably probably you uh cory we made it through right man

Corey 1:16:27

you know what like i think that that's kind of the view that people are you know everyone's pussyfooting around it they're kind of thinking about it it's making real conversations difficult here i don't know i don't know what making it through means anymore i condemn hamas i

Corey 1:16:41

i am deeply conflicted about the overall israel palestine situation i don't fucking know what you want from me beyond that and you know i stand with israel in this moment i

Corey 1:16:52

know about it but like your your question even is like this

Corey 1:16:57

this is why i wanted to do a podcast cory's

Zain 1:16:59

cory's doubting if we made it through

Corey 1:17:00

no people want to

Zain 1:17:05

i don't either we definitely did i don't anymore i think we fucked

Corey 1:17:07

fucked it up uh

Zain 1:17:09

here's the here's a question i've been i've been grappling with for the last 15 20 minutes while we've been chatting carter actually cory let me start with you on this one which

Zain 1:17:17

which political party federal political party do

Zain 1:17:20

do you feel like we'll have the toughest time navigating this file and i don't mean to call it just a dp not even a question interesting tell me why tell me why

Corey 1:17:29

well because of of their base and because of the the views on on the farther left of the canadian spectrum and the tension that exists within it i mean i could have said the greens as well because obviously the greens are gonna have

Corey 1:17:42

challenges with anti-semitism but um uh you Ultimately, I think the NDP ones will be more meaningful because they're a larger party. And you saw Justin Trudeau and you saw Pierre Poliev stand up, make very strong statements condemning Hamas. You have seen the NDP make strong

Corey 1:17:59

strong statements, but they often then continue on, right? And provide some of that context that is antagonizing some people,

Corey 1:18:06

now you know what maybe

Corey 1:18:08

maybe in three weeks we'll say whatever to that right because there is kind of the moment and then there's beyond but um i think that the ndp are going to have a real hard time with this because they contain a multitude of views on the issues related to israel and palestine they

Carter 1:18:23

they won't separate it out make it simple right that is the ndp oh

Carter 1:18:27

oh yeah if they separated it out and made it simple then they you know i think that there's a way to to go through it. But that's just not who they are. It's not who they want to be. They want to take different and difficult positions, and they will take a different and difficult position on this particular issue.

Zain 1:18:44

Carter, you know, we've talked a lot about messaging. We've talked a lot about statements. My final question is originality of statements. There's probably going to be some politicians somewhere that are saying, you know, I'm going to either write a longer statement than is required. I'm a city councillor, but I've got thoughts, right? I'm

Corey 1:19:00

Maybe I'll do an 80-minute podcast on it. Yeah,

Zain 1:19:04

Yeah, when no one was asking for anything, to

Zain 1:19:06

to be honest. Yeah,

Carter 1:19:07

Yeah, some fucking idiots.

Zain 1:19:09

these people with egos that are not unchecked and have been a result of childhood traumas, they're going to do longer rather than shorter. Or they're going to try to go for original, overrated or underrated original statements in times of crisis, Carter?

Carter 1:19:24

Overrated, and I can't believe we did this one.

Zain 1:19:27

Corey, overrated or underrated? I'm hoping you go with something unique. You give me a unique answer here, not the easy one available to you. Original statements in a time of crisis.

Corey 1:19:37

I think for most people, it is overrated. But there are rare moments where people can break the mold and actually start to shape the conversation in helpful ways. And we do desperately need leaders. I think we have all talked about kind of a bit of a dearth of leadership in our political ranks. And, you know, a certain amount of courage, a certain amount of thoughtfulness, I wouldn't mind seem a little bit why

Carter 1:20:00

why did it have to be us though let's

Corey 1:20:02

let's be really clear uh it's not i feel we're talking about the political strategy of this but like i think i

Corey 1:20:09

i you know what for

Corey 1:20:10

for most people you're not good enough for the rare few who are i

Corey 1:20:13

want to hear from you do

Zain 1:20:15

do you have any names

Corey 1:20:18

okay well there we

Zain 1:20:20

that's a wrap on episode 1258 of the strategist my name is with me as always cory hogan stephen carter and we'll see you next time

Transcript