Transcript
Annalise
0:02
Welcome to The Strategist, episode 1089. I'm your host, Annalise Klingbeil, and with you, as always, Stephen Carter and Zain Velji.
Annalise
0:10
Good evening, guys. This
Carter
0:12
This is one of my favorite groups. It's exciting.
Zain
0:14
More energy on the board. I don't know if we've, I haven't been over this with him, but just the energy for me. I felt like I felt it for Carter. I didn't feel it for me. I
Carter
0:23
I wasn't going to say
Carter
0:24
anything after she's been yelling at her husband, right? Like, that was awkward for everybody. everybody
Annalise
0:31
you know i'm recording that's
Annalise
0:36
we're uh we're doing a good job dad and uh cory is not here it's happening he has no faith that the three of us would do this no faith it'll be posted in fairness carter's gonna make it happen i
Carter
0:48
i think he feels good that we're gonna record it i think he's less comfortable with it's going to to see the light of day that the audience will
Annalise
0:55
will be able to is it going to see the light of day that's all on you 50
Annalise
1:02
just a coin very
Zain
1:03
very little faith in people that are not named cory hogan and and i feel like the problem starts there is the the bandwidth of trust around cory hogan there's
Zain
1:13
none uh is very insular and it's it's none it's non-existent and uh
Zain
1:18
which is why we've brought his wife and all his children on the show how
Zain
1:22
funny would that it'd
Carter
1:23
it'd be pretty great lori would love it she'd be great on the show she has the best i think
Zain
1:28
think she would yeah
Carter
1:29
yeah and she wouldn't couch things like like cory did with the whole stampede shit oh different leadership
Zain
1:35
leadership yeah not you and i carter no way we got nothing to protect nothing
Carter
1:38
we have no we have nothing right annalise
Carter
1:44
to the last call me all
Annalise
1:46
all the time carter i
Carter
1:47
yeah what do you think
Carter
1:48
i thought it was really good i mean I mean, I was a little upset that I only got name dropped twice.
Carter
1:55
was pleased that you got Zane to admit that he takes our stuff and puts it onto the CBC. Annalise, that makes me pretty
Zain
2:04
Literally don't understand the joke, Carter. Okay, that's fine. Yeah, that's fine. Is
Carter
2:07
Is that a joke?
Zain
2:08
I don't remember. It's a joke? I don't remember being said that way. Okay. I remember saying. Carter,
Annalise
2:13
Carter, did anything upset you? Were you yelling at your podcast
Annalise
2:18
app at any point? I
Carter
2:19
I think I was, but then I quickly forgot it. And I now realize how the audience responds to our stuff. You know,
Zain
2:24
know, oh, I'm really angry. Oh, what was it about? I don't remember.
Zain
2:27
It's very ephemeral. Yeah,
Carter
2:29
Yeah, I was there. I was angry for a minute, and then I was over it. So that's how I experience the podcast now.
Carter
2:36
But I'm pretty excited about tonight.
Annalise
2:39
Yeah, guys, we've got lots to talk about. Lots has been happening. You would think it would be the dead of summer, but it's not. There's lots going on. um our first segment tonight is called who is pierre polyev um i want to start start here we've got zane with his strategist hat on and i think this is a good one for zane so the conservative party is reintroducing pierre
Annalise
3:03
pierre polyev to canadians they've they've launched a brand new three million dollar ad campaign it'll run on tv radio digital and print um three ads two of them kind of show his more human side as leader show his family one is voiced by his wife and then um the third is an attack ad on the carbon tax so that's kind of my summary go go watch them and i i want to dive into it i want to hear both of your thoughts but zane i want to start with you just overall high level initial thoughts on these these three he has oh
Zain
3:37
man skippy carter skippy's trying to reinvent himself skippy's
Carter
3:40
skippy's gonna be new yeah
Zain
3:43
new skippy uh yeah same old pig new lipstick right and and we've seen this many times
Zain
3:51
can say that tell us what you really think it's good yeah a pig is a highly respected animal in my culture we don't we don't eat them uh we don't go near them um wait okay i don't know if i'm making a good point or not listen carter i mean annalise i think it's an interesting sort of ad campaign the timing is fast there's so many things that fucking interesting interest me about this campaign that i find fascinating um but let me maybe start here which is how
Zain
4:20
really it's possible that the conservatives are running an a campaign for three million dollars we can talk about the money because i think the buy is interesting um but
Zain
4:29
but they literally have not faced any defining of Pierre Polyev by Justin Trudeau, at least through paid media and the liberals. So they find themselves this very frictionless lane to do something that they have to do, right? And we could quibble about the creative and I'll get into it if you want me to and give you my thoughts on it. But I think the most fascinating thing is that Pierre Polyev has been the leader for a long time. Before he became the leader, they knew he was going to become the leader. And now he has this opportunity after months of developing his own creative, after months of actually being a total unhinged prick to the general public, after having many faults of his own, he gets this golden opportunity to define himself. The most interesting thing to me beyond
Zain
5:14
beyond the advertising campaign is that, that the liberal inaction, the liberal sort of you know inability or lack of resources or lack of imagination or lack of urgency the liberal lack has allowed this moment to happen uh where he now gets to spend i think at minimum three million dollars to start redefining himself is actually the most flabbergasting part of this for me okay
Annalise
5:39
okay good uh good good top line stuff lots to dig in there carter you yeah
Annalise
5:44
yeah you jump in it looks like you're yawning zane's boring Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's like, really,
Zain
5:50
really pleased. He's stealing all his points and he's going to say, oh, my God. Oh, my. How did he do it? He stole all my talking points before I spoke. Oh, no.
Zain
5:57
It's like he has his own fucking thoughts. You know, I mean, it's a special kind
Carter
6:02
kind of strategist to look at something that is being forced upon the conservatives because it is being forced upon the conservatives. conservatives um either you don't do this if the first if the first brand worked you only do this when the first brand doesn't work this isn't something that's like oh you know what we've got a few extra million kicking around in the can let's just spend it just because what the hell we'll just spend it on this uh rebranding structure they are rebranding pierre pauliev because they have to rebrand pierre pauliev because he is a prick and people know him as a prick and they they don't like him and when we started to see over the course of the you know the the start of the summer we started to see his his new eyeglasses or the lack thereof and all the different brand elements that he was bringing in yeah i mean we we basically knew it would culminate in some sort of advertising campaign i think it's a little early i don't think canadians are really paying attention yet we haven't returned from the cottage but um you know when you've got as much money as the as the conservatives have you may as well spend it and you have to spend it on the leader that has completely um fallen flat with with canadians and that's pierre he he just has completely fallen flat zane
Annalise
7:24
zane any any response to carter's deep thoughts sir i
Zain
7:27
i don't think the polls indicate he's falling flat carter he you know after years of gridlock the the conservatives are up ahead. So listen, do
Zain
7:35
do I think they're always going to do this? Yes. Is this why I'm really pissed off at the liberals? Yes. Because we predicted this months ago. We predicted that there was going to be an ad campaign. I think we almost predicted it would look something like this where we brainstormed ideas that wouldn't it be great if the narrator was his partner? Didn't she give that great speech at his victory for the leadership? I mean, all of this we
Zain
8:00
we knew was going going to happen. And I suspect the liberals did too. And this lack of action is just so frustrating to me that I can't really see beyond it. Now, if I'm addressing Carter's point, I
Zain
8:12
I don't think it's early. Because I think one of the things you need to do with an ad campaign like this is not convert people right away, but is soften the terrain. And
Zain
8:22
And as much as it's about softening his image, the whole purpose of the campaign is to soften the terrain so he becomes more acceptable. And I think the big challenge for the liberals, when you look at the current polls, where the gap that used to be a deadlock or a relative deadlock, regardless of which poll you'd look at, has now widened a bit. The liberals have really maybe one, if not two strategies. And I'm not going to be the first to say this.
Zain
8:48
They are positioned right now to lose. If they keep Justin Trudeau, they're positioned to lose. So one of the things they have to do is make Pierre Pierre Polyev, largely unacceptable, just void him as saying, you know, there's some good things, but like this one or two things that makes this guy impossible to support. Impossible. That's the bar. That's actually quite literally the bar. And by giving them the summer's months to start the softening campaign, his image and the ground, to give them the $3 million runway to do that with, I think, a pretty solid ad, allows them to tell this chapter of the story now now until a more aggressive, assertive, cost of living chapter reintroduce that whenever they need to. And so I think this is a perfect time because this is not an ad to convert people. This is an ad about reach and frequency. This is about getting a lot of repetition, hearing Anita Polyev's voice over and over for the first two seconds, which I thought were brilliant because it starts with a rhetorical question, who is Pierre Polyev? And then she goes on to to answer that question. This is about reaching frequency and there's no better time to do it than the summer months in many ways where you have platforms like YouTube and other places where you're just going to hear that message. Who's Pierre Polyev? Who's Pierre Polyev? She's going to propose the question. She's going to answer the question in 15, 30s and one minute length videos. I think this is a very smart strategy and a very timely strategy. What annoys the fuck out of me is that it was a very predictable strategy that there is there's absolutely no retort to carter yeah
Annalise
10:21
carter do you agree good good strategy like it let's start with the one that zane's talking about the one that's voiced by his his wife and features you know pictures from his childhood talks about who his dad saw him as who his mom and and now he's playing at the park with his kids is it a good ad is there good strategy there i
Carter
10:37
mean you've they've taken an android and turned him into a human being and that's pretty good that's pretty pretty good branding. I mean, um, the people who know and love Pierre Pelliev, uh, will grow in number because he does look likable. He does look like a human being. He does look like someone that you'd, uh, to use the, the old term, you know, have, have a beer with this. Is this a person you want to have a beer with? Yeah. He looks, he looks normal. Um,
Carter
11:05
you know, I mean, you can make anything look normal. Uh, but
Carter
11:09
but how long will he be able to hold it up and actually behave like a a normal human being before he shows up in the news again you know and um it'll be fascinating to see if this is the character that he's able to hold and play uh all the way through the all the way through um you know this is this is why i my acting career sputtered um you know i i could start with a pretty good character uh but by the end of it i was playing a different character and i think that this is the problem that pierre poliev is going to run into he's going to be he's trying to play this character this character is a really solidly well-crafted character i think the ad is really solid i think um the
Carter
11:48
the humanization of his wife speaking to the you know doing the narration that was a really i mean i don't think it was inspired but it's a really solid pitch right like it's
Carter
12:00
it's almost like a
Carter
12:03
guy with a girlfriend is a signal to other women oh this is a person who i could have as a boyfriend um he's got a who deserves
Zain
12:10
deserves a girlfriend and
Zain
12:12
to be more clear right
Carter
12:13
because before that he wasn't human he didn't behave like a human being and i
Carter
12:19
i i just don't know and
Carter
12:21
and if i were the liberals the response i would be making would be to put him in positions where we would see him behave as he normally behaves push
Carter
12:29
push him into the position where his character is the
Carter
12:32
the real one that pops out, not the fake one they put into the 60-second spot.
Annalise
12:38
And then when that happens, then what?
Carter
12:41
Then you start running
Annalise
12:42
running that... Getting caught in
Annalise
12:42
in those scenarios, and then you... Yeah, then you start running that ad. Who
Carter
12:46
Who is Pierre Polyev? And then I would do it with
Carter
12:49
with a female voice.
Zain
12:51
Who is Pierre Polyev? I would do it with a Neda Polyev's voice. I would actually start it with her voice. Who is Pierre Polyev? Because people are going to... But if this campaign is successful, and I think $3 million, like Carter, you and I know ad spends. To give people some insight, $3 million for swing markets for a reach and frequency campaign, it's not a lot of money. No,
Carter
13:11
No, it's a pretty short campaign. I think
Zain
13:12
think this is actually going to be... Yeah.
Zain
13:13
Yeah. So this is going to be an intensive burst. So the liberals are maybe lucky in that regard, that this is not a $15 million campaign. Now, it easily could be. If Polyev and team seem like this is paying dividends, that it's starting to get out into to the culture that people are starting to soften on, and they'll focus group this mid-cycle of the campaign. They will have online studies and recall tests as any good ad maker would. But the opportunity that the liberals have here is to respond to it exactly on their terms. They should have done this earlier. The opportunity still exists for them to do it. I do want to pick up on a couple of points Carter made, if I'm not interrupting you, Carter, because that's the the last thing i'd want to do where where that's the last thing i want to do on
Zain
13:59
no no i really can i can i can i let you have the floor carter is that is that okay please
Zain
14:03
please jump in carter okay a couple things carter's
Zain
14:07
carter's absolutely 100 right on character like
Zain
14:10
like there is almost like a method acting persona that pierre polyev will have to adapt if this campaign is successful he's gonna going to have to keep it up. And what he's going to have to keep up is this duality. What I liked that they weren't selling about Pierre Poliev is that he's this nice guy and that he's been misinterpreted. No, actually, what they're selling is he is this prick, right, in the chamber, but he's also this family man that you don't get a side of. And I thought that was smart because it still lets him be him in one lane while still having this duality. But Carter's not wrong. He's going to have to make sure that that other side of him, we're not going to get to see his family life presents itself in public life. How does he do that? You're going to have to engineer opportunities for him to do that at rallies, at one-on-one events, at other videos that they record, in these quasi-viral moments that they try to engineer, where you see that softer side. And you saw a few of those during the leadership campaign, like that moment I recall is the one where he was lifting his wife on his shoulders after a stump speech or some sort of rally event in Toronto. That was a human moment. But Carter's right. They're going to have to continue to engineer this. Where I think this ad also succeeds is two other points. Number one, it's really this concept that it doesn't try to re-engineer what a political introduction ad looks like. And Carter, I don't know how many times you've been in this situation where you're with a client or you're in a room with fellow politicos and they're asking for what an intro ad should look like, and you give them a pretty good rundown of what an ad should look like, what components it should have. And the answer always is, well, haven't we seen that before? And the answer back by a good ad maker is, that's the fucking point, right?
Zain
15:52
right? There is something familiar about this. The fact that they're going for effective versus novel is a big lesson that I use in my work when I create ads, right? And we've had the opportunity to talk about that before on the show is you're trying to actually not win awards here. You're trying to persuade people with something that sounds, looks, and feels familiar. They have fallen for this before. This has worked 50 times before. And that's the point. And often, it's those that try to win awards that go with something novel or hyper-creative or clever, which appeases us as the creatives, but isn't targeted to the audience. So one of the things I love about this ad is that I predicted it, we predicted it, and that's exactly the point. Yeah.
Carter
16:38
want to ask me a question, Annalise, or should I just keep rambling?
Annalise
16:42
Wow. Tables have turned. You can ramble. I was going to say you can respond to Zane, but he just complimented you throughout and said you were right. Yeah,
Carter
16:50
Yeah, no, it's awkward. You know, I have done this ad. I did the Jim Prentiss opening ad for his leadership, his attempt at the progressive conservative leadership. and it was a great ad it had the exact same beats um we introduced the family they were all gathered for a thanksgiving dinner um you know lots of joking all those types of things great video absolutely great video hit almost all the same all the same notes the only difference is his kids were younger or i'm sorry his uh um pierre
Carter
17:24
pierre polio's kids are older yeah they're younger yeah so parenthesis world yeah parenthesis kids were all in university age but um you know same same, same, right? Like, believe
Carter
17:34
believe me, if we'd had a grandkid, we would have put the grandkid front and center, right? Like there were, there were moments and beats that you were going to hit. And those moments and beats are, are known, um, because you're basically doing the, uh, you know, the, the, the commercial, right? The, the commercial about, you know, calling home or whatever, the, the importance of family. I mean, we we've done these things a million times. so here we are pierre polyev's playing it playing the game um i
Carter
18:03
i just think that the difference between pierre polyev playing the game and jim prentice playing the game is that when jim prentice played the game he was playing the game very
Carter
18:12
very close to who he was as a human right who he was as a person uh was very important to him it was very important to him and family was very important to him and i don't mean to imply that family's not important to pierre polyev i i simply simply don't know but the way that we know pierre polyev the way that we know him the way that we see him is in contrast to this to this ad and the weakness of this ad will be the second that he falls out of character and i just i can't see him holding through uh and being this guy uh for as long as he needs to be for this ad to be effective let's
Annalise
18:53
let's talk about that a bit like as as those people around a politician when you're molding him and trying to fit him into a box in this case you know a kinder a gentler version how stressful is it or how hard is it to keep keep that up and as you say you know engineer moments where he he can show that side of him and not revert
Annalise
19:13
revert to the other side like how how stressful and how hard is that for a team who's not thinking about tomorrow but the coming months well
Zain
19:21
well i well i i'll start and i'm sure carter you've got thoughts for me me, I think it starts with a good team doesn't try to actually put you in a box. They, to use a Corey Hoganism, right? They give you optionality. They give you latitude. They give you off ramps. And I think this ad where I disagree with Carter is he doesn't have to be this person
Zain
19:43
fully. He has to have moments of this person because they're not selling this guy. They're selling this as one of his multitudes, right? And so I think he can continue to be a version of him and still soften the ground with paid, Carter. We've seen politicians who we've built brands for that are complete fucking pricks, that are complete losers sometimes, that are not the intellectual heavyweights, that are not the charisma sort of folks that we feel like that the brand we have constructed for them. I don't see how this is any different. People have to to see flashes of this. They don't have to see this. Now, does he have to stay in that character a bit? Yes, which is where I kind of agree with that sort of method. He has to always kind of bring it back to that. He always has to make it part of his persona, but I don't think they're trying to reinvent him. I thought this is why I think it was done really smartly with the pairing of the other ads where he can kind of be a bit navel gazey with one where he has the puzzle pieces and then he could be a complete prick on the carbon tax. He's got other modalities. He's with carter is that he has to become this person because i don't think that's the the case yeah you
Carter
20:52
you haven't lost when when the person had i mean i've lost two
Carter
20:56
two or three times when the person turns out to not be the person that you're selling the brand carter
Annalise
21:02
carter tell us more about that like
Annalise
21:04
so i'll use the
Carter
21:05
you she's probably the experiences but redford gondek i think both fell into this category of um there is an opportunity to sell a specific type of character right for For Redford, it was mother of a young daughter, daughter of aging parents. We've talked about this brand a thousand times. It was a great
Carter
21:24
brand for the moment. And I still argue it is a great brand for Canadian politics. It enables a whole bunch of things. And if I were running a leadership campaign or any other campaign, I would re-look at it again if the right candidate came forward. But the problem that we had is that it really wasn't of interest to Alison. It wasn't who Alison was. Alison's husband, Glenn, did tremendous amount of work raising their daughter. He was the, I would say, primary caregiver. Alison had had an international career. career. She really, I think, understood the international relations model and arguably would have made a better prime minister than she would have made a premier. But we built a brand for her. We constructed the brand. We put her in the brand. The brand worked. It was unbelievable. But then at some point, she fell out of the brand. She was unable to sustain the brand position that was constructed for her because at the end of the day, it wasn't in her character to hold that brand position. So, you know, having lost that and, and Zane, there can be criticism. There could be a criticism that says, you know, you shouldn't try and put, you shouldn't try and build a brand around something that people aren't, but we're selling things here. And one of the things we have to sell is the person that we are working for. And selling that person sometimes means crafting the product that people want rather than the product that we have. have um and i would argue that if you know rachel notley uh had some opportunities to be crafted in a little bit different fashion but she probably rebelled against those she probably rebelled against those pieces and as a result maybe she wasn't able to win but
Carter
23:14
but we'll never know because we're not going to get the why'd you lose podcast
Annalise
23:19
yeah but we're never going to get before we bring before
Annalise
23:21
before we why would
Annalise
23:22
get that podcast before we bring zane back in carter how is that when When you're doing that kind of putting in a box, how much pushback is there from that person whose face and name like
Annalise
23:33
like you're using? And you just kind of mentioned it at the end with a Rachel Notley example. But I'm just curious about that. If you're saying we're going to brand you this way, is someone saying, no, that's not me. And the team says, well, that's what you need to be to win. And then they do it. Like, what is that like?
Carter
23:46
Both Jyoti and Allison
Carter
23:49
Allison were great candidates. dates both of them uh very willingly put themselves into the brand they needed in order to win um without pushback with modest pushback right modest pushback i can't think of anything off the top of my head i can't remember the specifics i know that um jyoti pushed back on a couple of policy initiatives uh that we wanted to put through uh nothing on the brand structure but a couple of little things on the policy and i know that um uh
Carter
24:22
uh in essence allison didn't push back on anything she accepted her she was very much especially in the election where we were losing keep in mind that we were we were a lot of points down um she was an excellent candidate she just put her head down she would say what do i need to do and what do i need to say and how do i win this election
Carter
24:45
because at the end of the day they have to recognize their commodity as well like we don't elect the person we elect the person that we perceive people to be and that's just that's just reality they
Annalise
24:59
they do want to jump in there on that kind of like building that ideal
Annalise
25:03
ideal candidate or story around them when they don't fit in with it or when it's like in bringing it back to this this conversation about Pierre, maybe when it's not who they
Annalise
25:14
they are, or not the side of them that they want to show publicly.
Zain
25:18
Yeah, you know, there is, there is a lot of research and academic research around this, right. And it's, it's
Zain
25:26
it's interesting, because you've seen throughout history that you can almost classify on the top line, a brand for certain candidates. And there's a school of thinking. And I think this one applied from the United States applied specifically to to Democrats. They said, Democrats were either one of these three Ps. They were preachers, they were professors, or they were pugilists, right? And you could choose a lane. And you could go back and dissect any Democratic primary, and you'd find your preachers, your Cory Booker types. You'd find your professors, your Barack Obamas, which was interesting because he was a professorial, but he also had a bit of preacher in him, right, when he needed to be from the stage. And you'd have your professor types, right? Right. You've had your Bernie. You didn't have the Riz, as the kids would say, but he had the goods. Right. And Elizabeth Warren, I think, is a great example. Right. In our recent memory, she was literally quite literally a professor before she became a senator in that sense. So you almost had this breakdown. And I think you see a similar breakdown in conservative politics. Right. And I think Pierre, if he's picking a lane, is picking that pugilist lane. Like I'd almost classify appear as pugilist partner parent right like this is the brand that they're trying and it's not as poetic as carter's like what was that carter that she had for allison i thought that was really nice uh mother of
Carter
26:44
of young uh daughter daughter of aging parents best brand i've ever come up with so just it is it had everything because it's poetic it had yeah it had everything says daughter twice conservatives
Zain
26:54
conservatives do three words as we know especially in this province one thing one thing two thing three pugilist partner parent that's what he's going going for. What he isn't going for is partner-parent. He's not going for two things, right? He's going for that third thing. And I think as long as he can keep elements of those two, I think he's fine. When you look at brands that don't fit, Carter's absolutely right. And I think part of it is how much load are you putting on each of these three, if I'm using this as an example. How much load are you putting to say, listen, people already know you as X, and X is a liability. Pugilist is a liability. We need you to be these other two things. And I think where this fails is when you're trying to actually rebrand, but you say rebrand, but you actually mean change, right? Like when you say rebrand, but internally you actually mean we need to change this fucking person.
Zain
27:44
That's when it fails. And Carter, I kind of point back not to be reductive to the examples where they failed for you, but in some ways, yes, they were those things. Allison was that brand that you put for her, but it was an inch deep. It was an inch deep. She didn't want to be it. And it was just one of the things she could have been that day. And it was not something she had pure conviction to. And I think where the brand fails is where you actually want to change from someone, and you're hoping that the rebrand changes them. And that's a huge trap in politics, that we do a rebrand, and that we're actually not just trying to present externally, that we're hoping that some cognitive dissonance will take this rebrand, they'll internalize, they'll say, I need to be this person and they'll do it. And often that's an issue of political staffers and political strategists not being able to speak truth to power saying you actually need fundamental changes here, not just a rebrand, because that's how we're selling it externally. What you need to do internally is this.
Carter
28:40
Carter, it looks like you really wanted to say something. I was just going to say, it's also important to remember that these were brands, they weren't rebrands.
Carter
28:47
And I think that that's an important distinction because
Carter
28:52
wanted this you know the the rebrand is a significant problem i mean yes it's an opportunity to come out and see can i
Zain
29:00
i say i think there's a case to be made the pure thing is not a rebrand that people do not know who the hell this guy is at least the people that need to come i don't even know how this is actually a brand i don't even know how you can say that
Carter
29:11
we've known you you opened your conversation man you this is you opened your conversation with you know we've We've known Pierre Paglia. He's been elected for a gajillion. We, we, we, we, the entire
Carter
29:22
We are not them. No, he's out doing videos. Oh my God. I mean, we are not that man.
Zain
29:29
can we call Corey?
Carter
29:30
Corey? Can we get him back? No, this
Zain
29:32
this is good. What have we done here? No, this is good. Carter's literally making the mistake that every strategist does. I'm sorry. You are making the mistake. I'm sorry.
Zain
29:41
I've had that so many
Carter
29:44
it up. I'm sorry.
Zain
29:46
writing it down carter's murder you're making a classic mistake when
Zain
29:50
when i say we i mean the listening audience of this patreon i mean you and i i mean the
Annalise
29:56
the people who pay six dollars for a political podcast the fact
Carter
29:59
fact is no one knows who the fuck this guy is it's just not harder that's just not true how is he polling at 10 points over the government if no one knows who this guy is they know who he is that's
Zain
30:10
that's why it should be a worry for this government carter it should be be a worry for this government but keep
Carter
30:14
keep in mind that part of the reason with you don't win campaigns because you're more popular than the other guy because you're popular you win campaigns because the other guy's unpopular that's where justin trudeau is that's the part of the conversation you started with earlier that you kind of limped over they're trying to find a way to get to allow people to vote for this prick and they're the way that they're doing it is to reintroduce him And I can't understand for the life of me how you think the Canadians don't know who this guy is when everybody knows who this guy is.
Annalise
30:47
Okay. So, Carter, you think it's a rebrand? Take it to the bank. Everybody knows who Pierre Palliev is. Discourse. Discord way in. Do you
Zain
30:53
you know, Carter, how everyone would have known who Pierre Palliev is if the liberals kind of dug a little bit deeper, pulled $5 million out of the cushion and started an ad campaign six months ago? Maybe then I'd agree with you. But at this point— The liberals don't
Zain
31:05
a fucking clue what they want to do. They've been dealing with— The liberals— they also don't have the money i imagine they have but like true to your point they don't have as much as the
Carter
31:12
the conservatives they're just not spending it well i don't know what the fuck they're not spending but
Carter
31:15
but that's the difference this is just
Annalise
31:16
just just just a couple things and then we'll uh we'll move on to our next one timing wise i i know we've talked a bit about the summer um zane you said three million is not super long like what what does not super long mean how long do you think we'll see these ads if it just stops at three million oh
Zain
31:32
man this is yeah and this is Which is fascinating because we've seen these ads in their organic form. We haven't seen these ads in their actual paid form. And what I mean by that, we haven't seen the 30-second version of the Aneta Polyev one. We haven't seen the 15-second version of the Aneta Polyev one, right? One question I have for them is as much as I like the one-minute one, and it may sound like I love it. I'm not endeared by it. I think it's smart. I think it's the right thing to do. I think it's effective. But can it be effective in 15-second bursts? And why I think that is such an important tactical question in today's politics is that the 15-second unskippable ad is the ad, is the ad. We think of political ads as ones or thirties or even two-minute things that people watch rarely, right? This is not an ad in the leadership for the base. This is an ad for everyday Canadians who do not know who Pierre Polyev is, Carter, and trying to get a reach and frequency and repetition over and over and over. And here that's problem, answer, problem, answer. Can they do it as emotionally? Can they do it with that same connective tissue in 15 seconds is a question I have for them. I would kill to see what 15 second version they've made of this one minute. zane
Annalise
32:48
zane play that out a little like if if it's 15 seconds and it starts with who is pierre poliev and now you have 13 and a half seconds so
Zain
32:56
so many choices so many i'm so curious where they go they may not even have made a 15 second bird they have to which there's
Carter
33:02
there's no way you can't you can't go and market without a 15 second ad anymore you can't go and market without
Carter
33:09
six second ad i
Zain
33:11
this is a good point now they might be different right but i if i if my recollection is correct. In this last provincial election here in Alberta, most
Zain
33:24
most of the UCP's content did not hit the 15 second. They did 30s of almost everything. If they were longer, they didn't do 15s. And so I'm not convinced there is a 15 that exists, but if there is, I would die to see it. Because can they create an emotional resonance like the one minute does in 15? It goes back to that Lincoln quote or that misattributed quote, right? Sorry, I didn't write a shorter letter, right? I wrote you this long one because that was easier instead. Same with ads, right? Can you tell that same resonant story in six or 15? If you can, you're at the top of your game. I'm really curious what happens there. But to your question of why 3 million isn't a lot, if you look at where if you assume they're targeting, because I haven't been able to see the Facebook library just yet, and you can't see it on YouTube. If you're assuming there's a TV buy, if you're assuming that there's a digital buy, if you assume these products are going where the election is going to be won, Lower Mainland, 905, and Quebec, you see that there's a French language version for all of them. $3 million doesn't get you very far, especially if you're adding traditional media to it, which has a lot of spillage. And by traditional, I mean television. So I think this is going to be maybe a two, three-week campaign, maybe a month if they're miserly with their money and i think to me if they're smart and this is working and they've got their own kpis for judging what working means this is a initial three million dollar campaign that actually has a much larger spend uh if some of these pieces are working yeah
Annalise
34:52
yeah because the timing like three weeks when do i do we know when it officially goes it like into market but like let's say it's next week three weeks you're like september long weekend right like just timing Timing-wise, that summer, is that because they're testing out?
Annalise
35:08
Could be a million different things. Talk to me about the timing.
Zain
35:11
It could be so many things, right? Like, I personally like summer. People think it's dead time. I think it's time that a lot of us indoorsmen, like myself, are on their phone. Pre-roll, it's unskippable, right? All these things matter. These minor tactical decisions, as Carter will attest to, matter. And when you're trying to get a very simple message out there, who's this guy? He's a parent, he's a partner, and he's a fighter. right and using my frame you
Zain
35:37
can do that pretty well as an initial starting point you're not trying to win their votes today you're trying to soften the ground today okay
Annalise
35:44
okay let's leave that one there because we could talk about this all night and move on to some i
Carter
35:48
i have to have a chance
Carter
35:50
to bring up one no
Zain
35:51
no i have to have a chance after that though i have to bring up
Carter
35:53
up one point carter
Annalise
35:54
carter is i'll give you a chance but it's got to be good this
Carter
35:59
the amount of media coverage that they got would
Carter
36:01
would zero in on
Carter
36:03
on how much money they're actually going to spend because
Carter
36:06
they got a ton of media coverage because
Carter
36:10
it was fantastic media coverage and it may exceed how much money they're actually spending on media yeah
Zain
36:16
yeah okay i have to have to respond i hated the puzzle ad i thought it was terrible okay so did
Annalise
36:20
did i be you think i don't know if you would agree with this but as someone who has like a child around that age a little younger you that it's not not realistic you can't give a toddler one of those puzzles it's so funny
Annalise
36:32
it instantly goes in there like i'm like this is so stupid it's so unrealistic my
Zain
36:36
my colleague mentioned the exact same thing right away here's the reason i hate it if you believe the premise which i do that people do not know pierre polliev you do not see a single shot of his face fully in the entire video you do not hear his name until the 28 second mark this almost to me reminded me one where carter you have you and I have both had to negotiate with political leaders. One for us, one for you. This was the one for you, right?
Zain
37:04
right? Like to me, this was like, it almost reeked of the leader being like, I'm going to fucking do a puzzle and it's going to be about this. And it's going to be one of my like, you know, self-indulgent sort of narratives about the state of the world and how everything is broken. Back to my old stomping ground. Great. Have it. If I were them, I would put most of their money in that first one, that narrative video where he does not say a single board and i think that's really really smart puzzle
Annalise
37:28
puzzle one's terrible okay next topic um scandal in ontario greenbelt guys we got to talk about the greenbelt um
Annalise
37:35
um big news this week as i said it's been a busy week lots of other things i want to talk about but i don't think we're gonna have time um new report from ontario's auditor general concludes
Annalise
37:44
concludes political staff had substantial control grave preferential treatment to developers um very
Annalise
37:50
very extensive report press conference afterwards in which there was some gaslighting
Annalise
37:57
um sega continues will continue to continue um i guess what are like let's just jump in what are what
Annalise
38:05
what are your guys's thoughts here i think a thing that is standing out to me is like does
Annalise
38:10
does the public care anymore does the public care about political scandals will there be any consequences carter you want to let me
Carter
38:17
me tell you something here here's most of
Carter
38:20
of the political scandals that we have in canada um
Carter
38:24
um aren't thank you aren't aren't financial
Carter
38:28
um you know like very rarely do we actually see a politician enriching themselves now like we are so squeaky clean it's
Carter
38:36
it's to the point like let's say for example like zane did a better job and won the and won the last election uh for rachel notley he would have had a hard time getting his company through
Carter
38:47
through the door to access the riches that come with winning the election, because we are now so squeaky clean on our financial regulations and our financial dealings that people don't get the opportunity to enrich themselves from politics. And I think that that's something that we value as Canadians. We don't want people just jumping out and being able to to make millions of dollars because they worked on donald trump's campaign um so this is to my recollection one of the first personal enrichment things that's remember
Carter
39:23
remember everybody got all upset because margaret trudeau got like uh her expenses paid back or sophie trudeau got her expenses paid back from the we foundation like it wasn't they got paid it was their expenses got paid this is going to be seen as a politician being enriched um through their own actions and enriching his friends and it's going to have legs because in like i said in canada this just doesn't happen this is so you think you
Annalise
39:53
think it has legs i
Carter
39:54
i totally think it has legs now it's breaking at the same time as everything else right but if i was the opposition i'd be making sure that this thing came back over and over and over again um through the whole fall yeah
Annalise
40:08
yeah we'll dive into opposition strategy but saying do you do you think it has legs do you think and it's not like public opera part like is the public upset enough about this that people will resign or step down or be forced to leave yeah
Zain
40:25
yeah oh man that's that's a lot there so so let me start with will it have legs will it resonate? It should, but I don't think it will. And let me accept Carter's premise for a second. Let me accept your premise. I think the premise around financial scandals is a good one. Do you know what's actually missing from this, Carter? That every other financial scandal that we've seen, and I call it financial scandal, because to your point, they're about expenses paid, or they're about orange juice, or they're about Governor General's expenses, or they're about hotel rooms. Do you know what all of them had, Carter? A dollar amount. The
Carter
40:54
The dollar amount on
Zain
40:55
on this is huge.
Zain
40:57
yes but that's the issue that is
Zain
40:59
too big there's two points no no there's two points number one it's huge number two it didn't go straight into doug ford's pocket it
Zain
41:10
it's too huge and it didn't go into doug ford's pocket you
Carter
41:12
you know what it's too huge and it didn't go into doug ford's pocket could be the name of this podcast i was
Zain
41:19
was i was was hoping it'd be called method man uh mainly because i'm a fan of method yeah i know it's
Zain
41:27
think that's actually a miss two missing ingredients no because i agree on the financial i agree on the financial aspect of it but the fact is that a if the number was more palatable not in the fucking billions which by the way makes the story insane which i know your head is exploding because you're like that alone should make this but but carter
Annalise
41:46
dive into to that do people understand it's like you go to the 20 orange juice thing right like it's like the people are upset about 20 orange juice because they knew how much orange juice was do people understand eight billion dollars and what that what that means put
Carter
42:00
put it into real terms you know it's it's it's a thousand dollars per uh ontario household uh every month for 18 months whatever the number is i don't know i don't
Zain
42:12
don't i that's what doug ford gave to his buddies
Carter
42:14
buddies doug ford gave his buddies enough money for to pay all of your taxes for
Carter
42:19
for you know the average person's taxes for the rest of your life or you know like there's
Zain
42:24
there's a million different ways we can slice built an unnecessary highway that was not even completed prior to the election where he gave billions of dollars to his buddies and people didn't give a flying fuck part of me carter come on things beyond that the third point the third point i hate i hate to say this it's
Zain
42:42
it's baked in no it's not Doug Ford is one of the rare politicians, one of the rare politicians in this country that will get away with it. And do you know what? I kind of loved his response. I'm going to do whatever the fuck I need to do to build more houses. Shut the fuck up.
Zain
42:54
Let's talk about that response. I think it's corruption. I
Zain
42:57
I think it's corruption at the highest order. We refuse to use that word in this country.
Zain
43:03
And the report, my God, the report was literally scathing but tried everything in its power to not use the word corruption. Right? Like it was a dance around the word. Oh, my God. But Carter, this is a rare moment where the convergence of the politician versus the lack of specificity versus the lack of, did it go exactly to him, meets
Zain
43:25
meets its maker. And I think enough people have swallowed that Doug Ford is their guy and they're okay with all that comes with Doug Ford to maybe not give this legs. Oh, and by the way, it doesn't hurt that it's happening in the middle of summer. yeah
Carter
43:38
yeah it's gonna happen
Carter
43:40
needs to be revived for sure go ahead anyways yeah
Annalise
43:43
well carter i'm on like team zane 200 here so talk to us about why we're wrong and why this does have legs and why like talk about his response in
Annalise
43:54
in in the press conference after and like how he in in terms of to zane's point who he is what his persona is what people have forgiven him for like how does Does this have legs?
Carter
44:06
Well, I think the first part about it is that we don't do financial scandal well. Like we do not do enrichment of our friends. You've said that part. But we need to really, oh my God, it needs to be unique every time. She
Zain
44:18
She doesn't stop me when I say that part. I think I said the same thing seven times last time. And I think I really, I think I nailed it. I finally
Zain
44:26
finally nailed it on the fly. Oh
Carter
44:27
Oh my God. Like the preference. Like what happened? Like what am I on the outs here? Like I've been nothing but nice to you. nothing but nice um doug
Carter
44:37
doug ford first of all isn't this popular character that you guys are casting him as he may be the most popular he may be the most popular uh premier in canada but that's like saying that zane's the most popular host of the podcast it's a it's a low bar it's a low bar and once you're over that bar you start to see that there are um lots of ways and lots of ways that that Ford is vulnerable. I mean, he didn't win the last two by-elections. He has issues that are dogging him, and this is going to be one of those issues. The fact that he's able to stand up there and say, I would do anything to build houses, the next words out of someone's mouth just simply means, yeah, but you know what? I think that I could build houses without giving billions of dollars to my friends. I think I'd be able to do that. why does building houses include giving billions of dollars to your friends it shouldn't that shouldn't have to be baked in to get houses built in the province of alb in the province of of uh ontario you
Carter
45:43
you know this this is corruption someone needs to actually fucking say it don't
Carter
45:48
don't worry about being i literally
Zain
45:50
literally did two minutes
Carter
45:50
minutes okay but not you you dildo like Like, you
Carter
45:56
just got to fucking repeat, repeat, repeat. Sometimes issues take weeks, months, and even years to really for people to understand. This has to be one of those issues that you put the time and effort in to convince the people of Ontario that they shouldn't have to pay billions of dollars to people who haven't heard fuck all just to get housing built.
Annalise
46:21
Zane, it looks like you wanted to say something there. Housing is
Zain
46:23
is such an emotional issue. People are not thinking rationally on it, point number one. Point number two, this is not – and so for the political class, Carter, that does not pass the smell test. But I think for the general population who might whiff in and out of this story in these summer months, that'd be like, oh, there's some scandal and Doug Ford is just – it's going to lead to my second point. This is not about popular. I've never said Doug Ford was a popular character. I said it's passable, that
Zain
46:52
that it's baked in to who he is. He has this latitude that very few politicians in this country share, which is the ability to have things like this have very simple two to three word common man rebuttals. liberals that's a that and that is and and i frankly think that's what he's leaning into dude the pcs were prepared for this talk about preparation where the liberals aren't prepared for pure polyev when he's telegraphed he's gonna fucking you know get a remodel for for nine months the pcs literally launched ads today about their housing program they literally are running a onslaught ad campaign about doug ford and housing so they can not just change the channel but bury And talk about a spin on this. And so Doug Ford is not popular. This is not about popularity. I get it in raw numbers. He won the election. But this is about passable. And I think that he's got a lot of that baked in, Carter. Okay, let's
Annalise
47:51
let's let's play out Carter. Let's let's say you're leading opposition strategy. As you say, it could take months, years, you're leading opposition strategy. Zane, let's say you're you're forged and his government. So Carter, what what's your strategy? What what do you do? And then Zane respond with how you're going to respond. listen there
Carter
48:09
there are complex issues in ontario and and what we know from from doug ford is how he's going to solve them he's going to solve them by giving extra money and extra opportunity to his buddies and if you're one of the your his buddies that's great but if you're a taxpayer that's shit and that's what's happening right now is that taxpayers are getting screwed so that doug ford can put his buddies first and give his buddies a hand up uh and then he says oh but look at all all the good work i'm doing yeah look at all the no wait
Annalise
48:37
wait no no stop corruption
Annalise
48:40
he now zane responds that's your first part now zane zane can respond oh now
Carter
48:45
now we've got fucking rules because zane's here now we have to have rules the
Zain
48:51
liberal ndp alliance uh uh smear machine will do whatever it takes i'm focused on the priorities of ontarians which is building housing i will do I'm just patting the pockets
Carter
49:02
pockets of your rich friends. I mean, the report that came out did a double backflip, not to call you corrupt. I'm calling you corrupt. This is corruption at its greatest level. And if you don't think I should be calling you corrupt, then take me to court, my friend. Take me to court. I would love the opportunity. Let's go. This is corruption at a level that Canadians have not seen for decades.
Zain
49:30
The mistake, Annalise, would be to actually accept any of that premise, right? It's like to break out of character. This would be the mistake. The mistake would be to actually accept anything around what Carter said, around corruption, around buddies, around any of that, and just go back to the core issue of housing. If that's working, and they'll have to have KPIs on whether that's working. It's the second time we've talked about testing, right? Is it resonating and is it solving and is it burying it? But the mistake here would be accepting the premise that carter's put on the table carter
Annalise
50:00
carter any response i'm
Carter
50:01
i'm right zane's wrong zane's taking on the role of cory this evening i'm pleased by it uh here's you gotta fucking bang this
Carter
50:10
guy you gotta bang this guy for weeks you gotta bang this guy for months you gotta make sure that this guy owns this because corruption uh in in government is uh it's easy to do and once you start doing it it, it makes your life so much better. So governments that move towards corruption will continue to move towards corruption.
Zain
50:33
Here's actually a practical issue. So by the way, there's many points of what Carter's brought up that I agree with. The opposition parties need to hammer on this. Most of them. Almost all of them. There is fruit here. There are some votes to potentially be made. All of them. The issue is if we judge the political terrain right now, the liberals are in a internal naval gazing contest so they will use this story as their leadership they will use this story to figure out how they sell more memberships not actually make a point right they'll actually try to say i'm the one who could stand up to ford's corruption i'm they will carter can you not this is all they're going to be so person
Carter
51:08
person who's best on
Zain
51:08
on their standing up
Carter
51:09
up to ford's corruption and shining the spotlight on ford let that person win
Zain
51:16
i think this is a great opportunity for them to make
Carter
51:18
make it about i
Zain
51:18
i agree with yeah i
Zain
51:19
i agree with that because i also think that if they don't if they don't do that this is a massive opportunity for marit styles and i think the ndp have to be relentless here they have to be oppositional and propositional but they have to do what they do best which the first thing be oppositional right be oppositional dog with a bone classic ndp shit this is the jesus they're still in ndp in
Zain
51:47
well you know one thing holy
Zain
51:49
one thing mart styles did not get the benefit of is a introduction to the public because she was quite frankly acclaimed and with the with the very short leadership contest silver platter right now if you agree with carter's premise right that even if there isn't votes to be gained and it's perhaps even inevitable that that ford weather is this this doesn't take a huge for you as a public intro as a fighter as whatever brand you want to position yourself in silver platter right now golden platter golden platter be hilarious silver platter right now able to do it so
Annalise
52:20
so one one more aspect of this i just want to kind of end with is that um who takes the fall i don't know if you guys thought today talked about this kind of chief of staff angle um one question carter i think i saw it in the discords today my uh once a week little perusal we
Zain
52:36
we still have a discord is
Annalise
52:37
is uh is could a chief of staff do this without the premier knowing like is is that is that plausible uh
Carter
52:45
yes because the premier the chief of staff would ensure that the premier didn't know the specifics but the chief of staff would be doing would be taking the action because the principal wanted the action taken chiefs of of staff aren't in the habit of running off and taking action without their principal knowing what's going on um that's just not the way the world the the role works so yes um the chief of staff would do it without their without the principal knowing but they would be acting
Carter
53:20
under direction of the of the principal so
Annalise
53:24
so so let's say a carter is right let's just um hypothetically game this out very
Annalise
53:31
yeah probably it's not gonna happen but hypothetically um
Annalise
53:34
um and and there is you know there is uproar and and someone is gonna step down could you just throw the chief of staff under the bus and and be done with it that way that's
Zain
53:43
that's kind of what they're meant for that's what yeah i
Annalise
53:45
i mean chiefs of staff
Zain
53:46
staff are disposable if you're that's what they're kind of there for like not to be crass about it but that is one of their unlisted job functions is to fall on sword when told to do so. So yes, especially if it's not the Premier's Chief of Staff we're talking about here. So we're actually a couple layers removed from the Premier when we're talking about the Minister of Housing. So yes, absolutely.
Annalise
54:07
So Carter, do you think that under your theory of where the public cares about this and there will be
Annalise
54:13
be consequences, is that the consequence?
Carter
54:16
Yeah, I mean, I don't think there'll be enough of a consequence. I think that, you know, we've seen Chiefs of Staff and principal secretaries take these types of falls before and oftentimes uh at the very best they delay the inevitable anger or the outburst um it does not work i mean everybody knows the play and and we talked last time we were chatted about how sometimes when everybody knows the play it's still the right play to make um it may be the right play to make but don't be expecting expecting miracles. You know, Gerald Butts threw himself down and tried to stop, was it the WE problem? I can't remember which one it was.
Zain
54:54
No, that was SNC-Lavalin. Oh yeah, SNC
Carter
54:56
-Lavalin. And it didn't work, in part because the adversary was stronger, right? And the adversary in that particular case was from the Liberals' own caucus shortly, you know, the former minister. But nonetheless, I mean, if if if you can solve this with a simple staffing change, then solve it with a simple staffing change. If you can't solve this with a simple staffing change, then be prepared to go to go, you know, go to the next level. And that's going to require more input and more discussion from the premier's office on how to manage this. And that's what the liberals and that's what the NDP should be working for, making sure that this thing isn't solved by one sacrificial lamb from one office.
Annalise
55:44
Can you solve it with a simple staffing change?
Carter
55:47
I don't think that this is solvable with a simple staffing change. This needs to be described as corruption that runs through a party. This needs to be described as something that is larger than an individual. And no one person undertakes an initiative like this. It has to be accepted within the organization that this makes sense. Otherwise, no one would undertake it because it it's
Carter
56:10
it's really fucking dangerous to do this. It's really dangerous. And the consequences of doing it are significant. And this group of people did it anyways. So I would suggest that there was more than tacit approval throughout the organization to do it. so more than one person should be taking the fall
Annalise
56:35
guys let's leave it there move on to our lightning round big question Zane Taylor Swift were you successful are you
Zain
56:42
you fucking kidding me no okay was anyone successful no
Zain
56:46
no no one that I know of I mean here's the thing Carter Carter you and I are Swifties Annalise is also Swifty do
Zain
56:52
do you believe the bullshit that 31 million people signed up for this thing that number seems insane to me that
Zain
56:58
there was a one in 400 chance and 31 million people signed for the pre-reg i know carter you and i always share our friendship bracelets with each other but but uh we won't be able to go to this concert together i'm sorry well i know i let you know that's not true we
Carter
57:11
we could all we have to do is pay the incredibly high rates and which
Carter
57:15
which is why uh
Carter
57:16
uh cory and i are going to go on
Zain
57:17
on money yeah that's right thank you thank you so much yeah cory's got money Corey's
Carter
57:21
Corey's got money. Corey
Carter
57:21
Corey has money. Corey and I will be going. You know, it's unfortunate that you two won't be, but...
Annalise
57:29
No, it's strategist road trip. We're doing it.
Carter
57:32
Oh, we've done boondoggles. The best boondoggle we ever did, we went to New York City. Yes,
Zain
57:38
Yes, there we go. Here comes the fucking story. And
Carter
57:41
And we left Zane behind.
Carter
57:42
And we went to the comedy cellar, which, you know, Zane's very into comedy. He's a big, big, big, big, big, big fan of comedy. loves it and uh we
Carter
57:53
had who did we have come up oh my god john
Zain
57:56
john mulaney all the recommendations john mulaney came out so many um
Annalise
58:01
why was they not there uh
Zain
58:03
oh i can't tell you but they left me i'm sorry and i am gonna say the
Zain
58:08
the shittiest client we've ever had in the entire history of our time at hill and olton they left me to deal with and they just fucked off the new new york for by the way a total
Zain
58:18
no real reason there's
Carter
58:22
you know what we got some budget let's go do this and we did total
Carter
58:27
was fantastic i'm sorry you weren't there zane i was sorry you
Zain
58:30
you did that to you did that to me for washington as well if you oh the
Annalise
58:34
twice another great you've
Annalise
58:35
it twice you you gotta make it up and take him to taylor swift's cory asked
Zain
58:39
asked carter for the segue pictures they did sideways side by side segue way tour i've
Annalise
58:44
this too yeah that's
Annalise
58:46
fantastic we're gonna leave it there guys oh is that is a wrap on yeah
Annalise
58:49
yeah we're leaving it there that
Zain
58:50
that was a lightning
Carter
58:53
didn't feel like you were doing it for me um at
Zain
58:57
at least doing it for the clock and the paycheck and you know what we gotta
Carter
59:02
go 59 more seconds
Annalise
59:04
that's a wrap we
Annalise
59:04
we gotta go 59 more seconds My name is Stephen Carter Zane
Zain
59:13
Zane Hogan Zane Hogan It's that little picture
Annalise
59:19
picture of Corey on the left
Zain
59:21
left side guys 20% pay raise if my name was Zane Hogan