Episode 1080: The (Greatest Outdoor) Social Network (on Earth)

Zain 0:02

This is a strategist episode 1080. My name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, happy 4th of July. Oh, Nathan's hot dog eating contest canceled this year.

Zain 0:15

It's been canceled. It's canceled. I'm

Corey 0:17

I'm so upset. Why? What happened? I

Zain 0:19

I don't know. I'm going

Corey 0:20

going to look it up. Does

Zain 0:20

Does Joey Chestnut still exist? Oh, he does. He had comments. Stand by. he's very much alive here's what i know the fragments of information because i was rate limited right so the fragments of information yeah

Zain 0:34

so you got like half the story there was a tweet

Zain 0:36

and you got half of

Zain 0:37

hold on hold on uh nathan's hot dog before while i look this up uh carter over to you very quickly um this is going to be one of our ongoing debates uh that is if we disagree yeah um here's

Zain 0:50

here's oh it was it's almost canceled So there's some trauma here. Okay, Carter. Yeah. Ketchup. Does it belong on a hot dog? Yes or no? Corey, same question over to you in a second.

Carter 0:58

Absolutely not. You put relish and mustard, the two best chutneys

Carter 1:03

chutneys there are. Both of them are spectacular.

Zain 1:07

Correct and get fucked in that order. Corey, same question to you. Does ketchup, does it belong on a hot dog? Yes or no?

Corey 1:13

I don't think it belongs on a hot dog. It's not something I would put on, but I'll throw this back at you. Does barbecue sauce belong on a hot dog?

Zain 1:19

Absolutely not. Fuck no. No, only one thing belongs on a hot dog, and it's mustard. Hot dog has one condiment on it, and it is mustard and optional onions.

Carter 1:29

You don't go with the sauerkraut? No. What is going

Corey 1:33

thing going on. We're going to alienate everybody with these garbage takes that you two have, so I think we should move on. You literally just

Zain 1:41

just asked me about barbecue sauce on a hot dog. Well,

Zain 1:43

because I was sure the

Corey 1:44

the answer would be, yes, of course, barbecue sauce belongs on a hot dog. No,

Corey 1:49

it doesn't. As soon as you said that, I would say, explain to me the difference between barbecue sauce and ketchup. You know, it's basically like- That's

Carter 1:56

That's why they don't belong. A tanginess

Corey 1:58

you know, some sugar.

Zain 2:00

sugar. They told us it was canceled, Chestnut said. Oh, by the way, he won. We weren't sure we were going to eat today. He's the GOAT. We weren't sure we

Carter 2:07

we were going to eat today.

Zain 2:08

today. That's fucking- That's just right. That's dark. That's right. That is the GOAT. I'm just happy it's the 4th of July. I got to eat some hot dogs and get a win. uh it's affecting his vocabulary but i mean he wins yet again 62 hot dogs in 10 minutes i mean this guy is a legend i don't know why it was almost canceled but i'm glad he got to eat today carter what

Carter 2:29

what what what drama what drama i mean it makes the last three days of us not recording look like nothing happened right like that was real drama this is just us being bitchy not not recording this is good i'm

Zain 2:43

i'm still not understanding why it was almost canceled i mean i'm sure people are listening and probably look it up in the meantime i'm sure they will

Zain 2:51

no no they're loyal they're loyal to the show they will uh it seemed like it was they almost got rained out so i'm glad they could eat today for me

Zain 2:59

because the rain delay was what was gonna if

Carter 3:00

if it's like me almost getting canceled it's usually some comment that i make that i don't understand i like here's

Zain 3:06

here's what i like about this carter i like that in their options of of rescheduling. They'd rather move the day than rather move it indoors because these people are conditioned to eat outdoors rather than move to an indoor facility. I like

Corey 3:24

like that, Corey. Now,

Corey 3:25

Now, listen, I know nothing about this quote-unquote sport, but I'm going to have some strong opinions here about whether it should be outdoors in the rain or not. It absolutely cannot be outdoors in the rain. So much of the technique of eating tons of hot dogs is dipping those buns in water so they go down faster. And if water is coming from the sky, your

Corey 3:44

your tactics are going to change materially. So

Corey 3:47

the Nathan's people on this one. I'm with the Nathan's people.

Zain 3:50

people. It's like playing football when it's snowing outside. No, it's not. Because if

Zain 3:55

outside. Yes. And there's

Zain 3:57

snow on the ground and there's snow coming from above. Keep going.

Zain 4:00

Your dipping technique doesn't change.

Corey 4:02

You know what? You're right. It is actually the exact same. But I'm still with the Nathan's people on this.

Corey 4:07

I will die on this hill. Carter. Yeah. Yeah, well, clearly. Yeah,

Corey 4:11

obviously. I'm probably of coronary heart disease. But

Carter 4:13

But Carter... Now I want a hot dog. I've only brought chocolate cake up. Yeah, me too. Jeez,

Corey 4:18

I'm a vegetarian and I want a hot dog.

Zain 4:20

Let's move it on to our first segment. Our first segment, Rate Limited Exceeded. Guys, let's talk about this. We were talking about this prior to the show. I said, fuck it. Why not talk about it right now? For the political purposes, is Twitter finally dead? Corey, this is the ninth nail in the coffin. Seems like Twitter's had nine lives in the last three months. Are you finally calling it over? I just want a quick take on this segment. I really wasn't planning to do it, but fuck it. You're sending me invites to something called Blue Sky. I don't use Twitter all that often, so

Zain 4:46

tell me where your headspace is at right now. Is that what that is?

Corey 4:49

Well, I think we have to acknowledge that most coffins are held together with more than nine nails. So there might still be some life left in Twitter here. I don't know. There is so much to unpack on this. We don't even necessarily have a full understanding of why Twitter is limiting tweets. tweets. We do know what Elon Musk said, which is too many people are scraping Twitter. So this is like an emergency measure. So us normal people, we get 600 tweets. I think if you're Twitter blue, you get what? A couple thousand.

Zain 5:20

thousand. Yeah. So just to fill people in on the actual context of this segment, over the weekend, I believe, just maybe even last Friday, Elon Musk comes out and says, listen, those who got verified accounts, which by the way, you pay for now, right? You pay a monthly

Corey 5:34

much as it's yeah

Zain 5:35

yeah it's that you have a credit card yeah that's right and and you're and you're willing to put down a i think six or eight ten bucks a month um you can read 10 000 tweets a day if you're not verified carter a thousand so that includes the three of us

Zain 5:47

all in the same camp um or if you're a new account only 500 a day um this has kind of led to significant online backlash where people like what the hell what's going on uh i suspect even even with you guys, in some ways, as Twitter power users, I call both of you that I'm certainly not one. But Corey, you were saying that this is the we don't really have a good understanding of the context, the rationale of a founder who bought a platform is trying to make it financially viable and is perhaps implementing a strategy for you to be on it less. In fact, tweets out saying go outside, get off Twitter, like paraphrasing, but there was a tweet of his over the weekend that said pretty much that yeah

Corey 6:26

yeah well i mean let's start with the obvious twitter makes its money based on you using twitter your eyeballs going past advertisements so them rationing how much you could be on twitter is

Corey 6:37

is not the strongest business model i've ever heard of but as was observed by somebody online and i'm afraid i don't remember who so i can't i can't give them credit but

Corey 6:47

you know there are the crazy thing about twitter going taking this step over the weekend is um

Corey 6:53

um um so another thing you need to know is june 30th twitter

Corey 6:57

twitter basically said they're going to stop using certain google cloud services and there was some suggestion that they no longer had the

Corey 7:04

capacity to feed too many tweets

Corey 7:05

tweets and this was part of why they don't have the

Zain 7:07

the engineers left that's for sure well

Corey 7:09

well okay so let's just throw it all on the table so there was the idea that they had the google cloud problem they no longer had access to some of this baseline infrastructure there was a suggestion that twitter was essentially doing a ddos attack on itself and that its apis were making massive api calls and until they fixed the problem they needed to reduce access to it there was the idea that uh elon musk simply wanted to throttle access so that the addicts out there would pay their six dollars us a month in order to get twitter blue and as as observed by um you know this person online the fact that twitter stopped paying their hosting bill and that was only one of like four theories as to why this was going down tells you everything you need to know about the current state of twitter like they we are just playing calvin ball here he's making up the rules as he goes along none of this makes any fucking sense it's absolutely crazy uh it's a real testament to the durability of the platform as a core idea and as a network and as a community that it's survived so long under elon musk but we're at the 250 day mark with this guy and holy shit has he fucked this one up he's fucked this up pretty Pretty badly. And it's hard to imagine if

Corey 8:21

this was part of a business strategy, that's a good one. And so I think I do sort of assume that something is fundamentally wrong behind the scenes at Twitter, like from a baseline infrastructure point of view.

Zain 8:32

Carter, your take on this, and then I've got a question line that I want to spend the majority of this segment on. Your take on what's going on, and then let's move on from there very quickly. I

Carter 8:43

I just chuckle when Corey says, you know, Twitter makes its money on people using Twitter. Twitter doesn't make money. Twitter

Carter 8:49

Twitter doesn't make money. It didn't make money before.

Corey 8:52

Well, they have revenue. They have revenue. They

Carter 8:55

have less revenue now than

Carter 8:58

than they had before. They have less revenue today than they did when they were purchased for the ungodly sum of, you know, what was it, $44 billion? Forty-some?

Carter 9:08

Forty-some billion. 44 billion

Corey 9:11

because Elon Musk is a child and he's paid 54.20 for her share. You have

Carter 9:16

have no firm ground to stand on. You too are a child. Do you remember when you had to tell Annalise about the bus bench because you couldn't hold it in anymore? That

Carter 9:25

That is a child's action. Do

Corey 9:26

Do you remember, Stephen, that we were not telling Zane that to see how long until Zane figured that out? Zane doesn't even know what

Carter 9:32

what we're talking about right now.

Zain 9:36

I don't even know what this is. Exactly. I'm told to show up. you're the child but here's

Carter 9:40

here's the point uh he's a child with a lot of money he spent his money and now he's trying to spend less money and everything points to everything points to there's not enough money to pay all the bills so he's starting to pay some of the bills and if it means throttling down his users um then then he's going to do that because that's all he's got left

Zain 10:02

fine fine fine okay i i appreciate that completely and i don't want to get into an Elon Musk conversation. I don't. I really don't care about that. Here's what I do care about, though.

Zain 10:11

Twitter was problematic or had problems, let me put it that way, prior to the Elon Musk takeover, right? We're talking about content moderation. To Carter's point, they were talking about revenue growth. There's business problems. There's platform problems, right? If it's fair to say. You guys, you sent me an invite to this thing, Blue Sky. I imagine, right? And just tell me if I'm right, that it's similar to Twitter. It's

Zain 10:32

Here's the question I have have for you as communication strategists and specialists who've been on the platform for the last decade it's not to say i haven't been but i'm not just a power user so to speak like you guys um i think you just called us losers do you feel like this form do you feel like this form of communication carter i'll start with you on this do you this is what i think is the most intrigued do you feel like this form of communication this micro dosing bite-sized untethered to form of communication is dead should we even be trying to recreate it societally that to me is the most interesting thing. Like, should we just let Twitter die at death because, you know, and of course, there's going to be startups and other companies trying to replicate it as it leaves a whole. But give me your dispassionate perspective as a communicator, as a strategist, as a lover of sort of democracy and information. Do you feel like this form of interaction should not be recreated in that sense? I don't want you to give me your business take and see if there's an opportunity. I want to give me your communications, political strategy, democracy take, because I I think that's the most interesting conversation to me right now.

Carter 11:31

now. Well, I think that this is the second or third iteration of this actual platform being created and used, because I would argue that Facebook kind of started like this as well. It was more of a text-based update type of thing. We're sharing information and sharing other links and things you might find interesting. This is a cute cat video. You should look at this cute cat video or whatever it might have been. in. That sharing was easy and it was entertaining. There's lots of things that we posted. And then it became more and more and more and more. And it became photos. It wanted to be Instagram. It wanted to be scheduling. It wanted to create events. It became the everything app.

Carter 12:18

Now I just saw an interview on TikTok because I'm not on Twitter that much because TikTok is feeding me what i want now and i saw an interview with mark zuckerberg where he's being asked are they looking at doing an app uh that would rival tiktok and the answer is yes and i think it's because at the at the base level we want to be able to find communities super easy that don't exist just of our friends and facebook's trying to do it with groups but tiktok really nailed it down by making a searchable type of platform where you can find other people talking about the things that you talk about very easily. Reddit's got some of those elements, but this is, I think, a unique one because it's so

Carter 13:03

so easy to use.

Zain 13:06

Corey, I'm going to come to you with that same question, but Carter opens up something that I think is interesting and perhaps is more personal to Carter than to you, which is the community aspect on Twitter. And

Zain 13:15

And it may be personal to you too, Corey, But Carter, it seems like you have really had a community on Twitter. I mean, you're controversial on the platform and you have been, right? But is there a part of you, like if I talk to you as a political strategist, is there a motion around this platform going down for you or actually eroding for you because of the community you've been able to build, the credibility arguably you've been able to build on the platform? Talk to me from that lens a bit.

Carter 13:41

Well, I mean, I do have a pretty good community. Excuse me, Zane.

Carter 13:45

I'm going to die. You're

Zain 13:46

You're getting emotional, yeah.

Carter 13:47

I'm going to cry here because it's so important to me.

Zain 13:51

Do you need some water

Carter 13:51

water for your hot dog butter? I think a piece of my chocolate cake went down the wrong path.

Carter 13:55

But yeah, I mean, there's a community on Twitter. There's a community on, I think, all these different apps. I mean, I don't have a community on TikTok, but I see lots of users who do have communities on TikTok. I don't have a community that I really dig into on Facebook, but

Carter 14:11

but I do on Trailforks. I mean, each of these apps has their own community capacity. capacity and the question really is where you

Carter 14:19

know i've got a great community am i sad that it's disappearing on on twitter yeah i am sad um i do get a tremendous amount of joy from twitter but yeah i also get a tremendous amount of pain from twitter so you

Carter 14:33

you know i'm kind of a little bit mixed because if if i could take the good elements of twitter and not have to deal with the absolute pricks that exist there as well um then it would be a great platform but i don't get to have that i mean it is a mixed bag to be sure especially under the uh the musk leadership

Zain 14:54

do we need this form of communication in our in our lives anymore has twitter failed on more than one level um

Corey 15:01

it's a weird question for me i

Corey 15:04

i just think it's

Carter 15:04

it's a weird one you

Corey 15:06

know know, Carter is talking about how great the community is. And if you could have the good and not the bad, well, wouldn't it be wonderful? I've heard the same thing said about every workplace I've ever worked in. You could say that about community writ large. I think that fundamentally, these are all poking at different ways that people connect with each other. And there's a desire to connect. And of course, we're all rooted in our phones. And having our phones be a portal to connection is a pretty natural bandaid that people have figured out, whether whether that be Facebook, or Twitter, or Insta, or TikTok now, or you name it. But like, this is a constantly evolving space. And, and some of us just sort of die hard on different platforms. But the reality is Twitter was struggling with, you know, daily average users to begin with you had, Facebook's got the same challenge, this space just evolves, it moves on. And, you know, some people will take what works. And some people will say, you know, we're not gonna do that anymore. And, you know, you think about Snapchat, for example, well, Instagram swooped in, stole some features they thought worked well and and there you go and they're all chasing each other and they're all doing that and you're going to have people like blue sky say well look i mean twitter had a foundational core of tens of millions of users who used it for for news and if their big problem with twitter is just that it's twitter well we can you know we can call it distributed and we can shine it up in this particular way and there you go you can still have your twitter and and if they manage to recreate that network and get a critical mass then yeah i'm sure there'll be a bunch of people who are using a tool like twitter going forward it here but you

Corey 16:29

you know it won't be quite the same it never is it's like how in 2005 president's choice nacho cheese chip dip was my favorite dip and then superstore stopped making it and every

Corey 16:41

time i go to superstore i

Corey 16:43

i look for that dip i

Corey 16:44

look for that dip and you know what it's

Corey 16:46

it's never there why would you because

Carter 16:48

because they don't make that dip anymore why

Carter 16:49

why like our listeners are not going to be prepared at all but what

Corey 16:55

what i end up doing is i buy a different nacho cheese chip dip and you know what it's it's not quite as good as i remember it but it's probably the same and nobody cares and everybody moves on with their life their nacho cheese hole will be filled somehow so i don't think we

Corey 17:09

say that having big existential conversations about twitter i get

Zain 17:12

get that no no i get that i i listen the community aspect was very much for carter to you though cory's the question is this text-based microdosing form of communication. Is that a failure? And as Twitter indicated, no.

Corey 17:27

Tell me why. No, listen, I mean, because

Corey 17:30

because I'm old enough to remember when we used to do that with T9 keyboards before we even had full keyboards. Like this idea of sending quick text messages to people, we have a hundred different ways to do it now. I mean, I'd argue WhatsApp in some ways is a bit of a Twitter, you know, it's taken chunks of it and it provides things telegram obviously uh more popular in other countries but the ability to kind of rapidly scroll through text it's why television didn't entirely destroy the newspaper radio didn't destroy the newspaper people like to read people like to be able to distill information quickly and um and yeah it's not going away

Zain 18:09

we're going to leave that segment there moving on to our next segment our next segment steven and Carter flip-flop. I talk about this every year, and I love to talk about it. Carter, it's the Calgary Stampede. It is here, and I want to talk about it very quickly from the perspective of what it means to the politics of our province. We're on the heels of an election. The question I have to you, Carter, is does the Stampede matter at all on the heels of a provincial election? It is a time where we've called it the political petting zoo. Federal politicians from all over come to see it. You see politicians glad-handing, attending GR events, events, attending community events. The question I have fundamentally is, does the stampede matter at all after an election, or is it just a real advantageous petting zoo prior to an election? Talk to me about this.

Carter 18:52

I think that for those of us that are really tied up in elections, it loses a little bit of its luster after an election. But realistically, most people aren't tied up in it. They just want to see their politicians. And what a great way to be seen. you know you're flipping those pancakes you're smiling at people you're you know pouring the syrup onto their pancakes you're giving them the scoop of fruit if it's a if it's a high-end stampede breakfast otherwise they get you know the piece of overcooked sausage I mean it's it's all very exciting and people will line up and they will get their free breakfast as they have for the last 100 years and politicians will hand them out with a smile and people will have access to those politicians in a way that frankly we don't have every single day plus you know we will still see the march of other political levels um all out to calgary to to do what they do you know justin trudeau will be here jagmeet singh will be here um you know like uh

Carter 19:52

uh pierre polliev will be here wearing a higher level of clothes as predicted in in our last episode by me because i'm always he's right so you know this is what we're expecting from from stampede it doesn't change just because we just had an election it is a timeless classic when everybody comes out here and feels a little bit dirtier and

Carter 20:14

and a little bit grosser and a little bit worse for you

Carter 20:18

you know being here cory

Zain 20:20

cory leading up to an election to stampede makes sense retail politics awareness showing your your sort of understanding of calgary and i put that in air quotes sort of thing because in some ways it is a bit of performance art in its own right on the heels of an election same political value different political value how do you assess it top line cory

Corey 20:39

i think that the stampede that matters the most from

Corey 20:44

from the politician's point of view i

Corey 20:45

i want to be clear is the stampede before an election the

Corey 20:49

the second most important stampede is the one right after an election though you

Corey 20:53

know the ones that are sort of in the middle are the ones that don't matter this one actually you know stampede post stampede elections matter a lot in a couple of different ways let me throw a couple of them on the team yeah yeah sure sure one is um

Corey 21:06

every group that is now seeing the result of this election which i would hope to god is everybody well let's just talk about alberta politics but there's also a federal politics angle of course and i've

Zain 21:16

starting with alberta as the core but

Corey 21:20

going to now be saying okay we're gonna see like

Corey 21:24

like the thing about stampede we might have talked about this in years past but i just want to say it again is it's not like you see one person at one event you end up being in a traveling road show where you're at like the same wild of like eight different events in a row you're seeing the same people like there is just a crowd of 3 000 people in this city who go to political tide stampede events right yeah

Corey 21:43

and so there's thinking like who are we trying to get to what are we going to say to them how are we going to create first impressions for our organization in those particular places so they are really sweating how those first interactions go and so as a politician those are high meaning interactions for you not because they mean anything to you they don't you're drinking from the fire hose you've just finished an election especially if you're a new politician but

Corey 22:05

but there's such an asymmetry in how much people care about that meeting at this particular moment really really important and you can make a massive impression if you as a politician have command of that particular event in a way you can't in a year two or a year three stampede frankly right because by then your your wallpaper your furniture everyone's like oh there's the minister right oh there's the minister and those interactions don't mean particularly much so that's that's one part the second part is like

Corey 22:33

like you're probably not very good at this yet if you're a first mla and this is like this is like a

Corey 22:42

degree in glad handing you get to go to 30

Corey 22:46

30 events if you want for the course if you want to over 10 days 30 events seems low 30 events the first three

Carter 22:53

three days if you're a good politician yeah

Corey 22:55

yeah yeah right because you were just going event to event to event to event and

Corey 22:59

and that's an that's an awful lot of reps like you talk about the whole like malcolm gladwell you know like 10,000 hours in the gym sort

Corey 23:07

lot of fucking reps in this particular period and if you're a politician who uses them And you will find yourself markedly better by the end of the summer. Don't be the politician who sits there with other politicians and avoids talking to the crowd and avoids going out. So it's an immense training opportunity for new politicians as well. So those are the two main reasons why I think it actually matters a lot, the stampede right after an election. Oh,

Zain 23:32

this is good. Carter, I want to start with one of the points Corey brought up. If you're either of the leaders right now, Rachel Notley or Daniel Smith, are you telling your first timers, you're signing up for everything and you're camping out in Calgary, you're building these muscles over the course of the next 10 days? Are you mandating that? Or are you less sold than Corey that this can be a mini 10-day degree for you? What are you doing if you're chief of staff to either of the two, opposition leader or the premier? More

Carter 24:01

More than that, I'm telling them that they have to host their own events within their own ridings, right? Now they can group together and they can do, you know, like there was groupings within the

Carter 24:10

the NDP campaign. So we can put, you

Carter 24:13

you know, Glenmore and Acadia together and we can have those, you know, Diana and Najwan host a stampede event. But we I want to see who's got the chops to quickly throw together an event right after they just got elected, because, you know what, campaigns are tricky. And, you know, you can just shut off afterwards and say, oh, we're done now. We're done. You're never done. Right. You're never done. There's there's times when there's less pressure and there's times when there's more pressure. But right now is the opportunity to really test your muscles and to see if you've got what you need to have to to press the flesh, to have people come to your events, to really showcase who you are to the leader. I mean, you

Carter 24:57

you know, everybody's going to go to the premier's breakfast. Everybody's going to go to that breakfast. Well, that's that's fine. But what are you doing? Right.

Carter 25:04

Can you draw 800 people from your own community? um let's

Carter 25:09

let's see right now let's see if you can do that because oh interesting to you

Zain 25:13

you it's a test as well it's not just how you interact or your your kind of performance extroversion and your ability to meet people it's can you continue to draw and organize as well right it's a small cost to pay to host a breakfast but it's it's quite revelatory is what you'd say it

Carter 25:30

it all comes out of the the you know the budgets of these uh the caucus budgets or your or your mla's office budget this is this is baked in this is what's going to happen you are going to do this so let's see who can do it and i don't want to hear any fucking excuses well we just got elected my volunteer group is tired you know who makes those excuses losers make those excuses we want winners in this caucus go put together the events that you need to put together well you know we don't have time to advertise yes you do you can advertise on twitter i understand it's dirt cheap get

Carter 26:05

get out there put these

Carter 26:07

right so this is this is just an opportunity to show who's organized and who's not organized cory

Zain 26:14

cory talk to me yeah

Corey 26:16

yeah i i mean i agree with that and again i think you've got to keep in mind for a lot of community groups they now know who their mla is they want to meet their mla and i really want to stress these

Corey 26:25

these are different reps than candidate reps it's a different thing to be an mla or a minister than it is to be a candidate because as a candidate there's a certain gregariousness and openness and in particular if you're a government mla you need to learn the subtle art of not committing right like you've got to be able to go there and have them be your buddy but have absolutely committed to sweet fuck all along the way and that's that's a real

Corey 26:48

real fucking art because

Corey 26:49

because people will try to buttonhole

Zain 26:50

buttonhole you from day one well and i'd say especially if you're seeing the same folks over and over again and they can re-engage you with We've had conversation for the fifth time

Corey 26:59

time over the course

Corey 26:59

course of a week. I'm not going

Corey 26:59

going to shock anybody here by saying those groups I was talking about who are like, oh, we're going to meet with the minister, they all have asks. They all have lists that say, if we get the minister to know one thing about my organization, it's this. If they know the one ask of my organization, it's this. And then they are. They're going to badger them at every event if they're any good. Most of them are not. And most of them will think, well, I asked once, and they'll move on with their lives.

Zain 27:21

We'll get into that in a second. I want to talk about strategy of how you bump into folks accurately. But keep going on your point.

Corey 27:27

Yeah, and so that's all good. What Stephen said is good. But I would go a little bit harder if I was Rachel Notley or Danielle Smith and give some targets here, especially to the Calgary MLAs. I like what Carter said about hosting events. I would say, you've got 10 days, host three events, have a donor event, have a public event, have a stakeholder event, go, right? I expect to see some good turnout at all of these events. I expect you to attend four events a day. I expect you at those events to have 10 meaningful interactions an hour that your EA is logging and identifying or your constituency manager. That's somebody that I've now got on a Rolodex card, not literally folks, you know, in a computer is fine. But like, that's a connection that I have now made. And that should result in 10 follow up meetings that you offer. Most will fall through, most will not happen. But at least they know you've made a connection and you've attempted to get them somewhere on the calendar. And by the way, one final rule I would give if I was Danielle Smith or Rachel Notley to a bunch of people who are newly drunk on power,

Corey 28:26

don't get regular drunk.

Corey 28:27

You get one drink every two hours at these boozy events. You're going to sit there with either a non-alcoholic beer or a beer that you nurse like it's a baby's bottle. And you are going to keep control of your faculties and you're going to do everything else I said on the list because you are not there to have a good time. You are there to be a good MLA and be a good politician. I

Zain 28:45

like the last point Corey brought up, Carter. I want your reaction to that. But I want to get into now the nitty gritty of Stampede because Corey's brought up one of those points. Politicians have rules around consumption, around consumption of alcohol, Corey just mentioned, but also consumption of food. Many just say we're not eating. We're flipping the pancakes. We're never going to eat them. You never get caught eating, right? Right. Right.

Zain 29:04

You never get caught eating as like we've talked about as from a political imagery perspective, but also you never get caught eating in the sense that you've got another thing to go to. You're eating in the car. You're doing your own granola bars and cliff bars the whole time. So, Carter, react to what Corey said here. And then I want to get into I want to clarify a point with Corey before I kind of get into my next sort of topic on the stampede here. But your reaction to it is

Carter 29:25

is totally right, especially like the drinking one. I mean, there have been so many politicians that have a tendency to get a little inebriated and view the stampede primarily as an opportunity to drink, party and get and use their their newly found gravitas to get into all these special parties where, you know, oh, man, we get into the VIP sections. We don't even have to stand in line. Yeah, there's a cost to that. The cost may not be monetary, but every single one of those people that's letting you into those events is going to call come a calling for something from you later. So don't be running in. Don't be running up your tab on on their alcohol. Don't be you know, don't be behaving like buffoons. And so many of them do. do i'm i mean i've made the calls to politicians and that i've had to say you're gonna have to explain to me what the fuck you were thinking when you were getting hammered at this event

Carter 30:27

i've had to make those calls it's not a fun call to make it's an even worse call to get a

Carter 30:32

a worse call to get so behave yourselves and i swear to god if you fuck your assistant you're you're done.

Carter 30:38

You're done. Because that's what happens when you get drunk.

Zain 30:44

I wish I was joking. Corey, you're going to react. I mean, I

Zain 30:47

I wish you were too, Stephen.

Zain 30:50

Corey, let's talk about that asymmetry. I think that's so interesting. Is this too simple? I wrote this down. The stampede before an election, you're trying to make friends as a politician, and the stampede after, everyone's trying to be your friend.

Corey 31:05

what you're trying That's pretty spot on, right? And the thing about the stampede before an election is, if

Corey 31:12

if you haven't been their friend for four years, they're going to say, yeah, fuck you, you've shown up a little late here, or, you know, or you're going to be facing that kind of resistance. And certainly they will come with their list of demands very crassly put at that particular moment, because then the transaction, you know, the power is all on the other side. side but on the the first one after it's like okay we're gonna have to work with this government you know maybe they didn't think that person would be government maybe they don't have any kind of connections over there maybe they're more associated with the other side imagine for example you're the calgary chamber of commerce and you were somewhat critical of the government maybe you're trying to walk that back a little and making it clear you'll work with anybody and listen i don't think the chamber crossed

Corey 31:51

lines just to be

Corey 31:52

clear but i think that you know that's that's something that you're going to be acutely mindful of and so you're going to have your ask and you're going to have the things you want to present yourself as and the things you want to be known as and you are really sweating that that asymmetry to

Corey 32:05

to you that's the biggest conversation you're going to have all week right

Corey 32:08

right if you manage to get the premier or the minister that's the biggest conversation you're going to have all week to

Corey 32:15

you're one of i don't know i said 10 meaningful interactions an hour and four events a day like you were one of thousands of interactions for these people one of literally fucking thousands and and in some ways this is kind of like you know very classic theory you know where if you've got you know more suppliers on one side then you have buyers well then you know all the powers with that one buyer yeah

Carter 32:42

this is about okay you put your hand yeah well this is about i mean i wanted you to ask me about staffers because

Carter 32:47

because this is this is where you really test your staffers too because go down

Zain 32:51

that path go down that path because it's not just similar to where the

Carter 32:53

the the staffer so when

Carter 32:55

when you're the staffer in this role and i remember i was i was staffing joe clark through these i mean so we would have joe joe would go 10 a day i'm not even joking we do we do at least six days of 10 events a day and by the end of it it was just like we'd have a driver who would drop us at somewhere and pick us up at the appointed hour my job was to make sure that he got we would usually have someone at the event who would meet us at each event we would then be dragged through the event meet the key people that we needed to meet he would never even look at a pancake that was just something that was never going to happen and if you hadn't eaten beforehand you were not going to get a chance to eat because you were off to the next event where you're going to shake the next set of hands and so people you know where there's another person waiting for you but joe would have you know would say have you given your information to steven have you got your information to steven does he know how to reach you because oh oh, that sounds really interesting. We're going to have to follow up on that. I want to make sure that I'm really... Steven, take a note. Steven, did you get that? You've got his contact information, right? Let's make sure that we set something up in the next two to three weeks, knowing that person's gone on vacation in the next two to three weeks. We know that that person's not going to be available. Well, we're going to be putting something together because that person's offering us something very interesting that we need to listen to or whatever. But the staffer is moving so hard. especially the primary body person, that staffer is working to gather all the information, remember what matters, prioritize it afterwards, and then make sure that all the follow-up happens. And we are literally talking about, you could be dealing with a thousand contacts, each one of which is going to have to be prioritized and followed up upon.

Zain 34:39

Corey, you're thinking here.

Corey 34:41

Yeah, can I be also immensely cynical about the government relations business for a moment here? Of course.

Zain 34:46

Aren't we all? I'd like to, yeah. I mean, why not, right? I got like 12 invites next week to GR events. So

Corey 34:53

So there's like a, there's an art to what Stephen's just talked about. Of course. I'm going to use this Joe Clark example. And it's Joe Clark saying, Joe Clark's playing his part. He's saying, oh, I would love to meet with you, Stephen. Get that information. We're going to set something up in the next couple of weeks. Knowing full well the odds of calendars aligning are zero. And

Corey 35:10

And that this meeting is going to be pushed off probably months. If it ever happens at all, right? Right.

Corey 35:16

But now you're you're the principal who's had that interaction. The GR person on the other side of that interaction is like, we got the meeting, you know, because their win metric is you had such a good conversation with that person and we've got a follow up meeting now set. Right. And so they don't have an interest in calling bullshit on this. The politician doesn't have an interest in acting in a fashion that would call bullshit on this. yeah and

Corey 35:38

basically everybody around the person who is talking to that you know that politician is telling them how good that interaction is and how meaningful it was and how powerful it was and yeah the calendar is in the line right away but don't worry about it you saw how good that meeting was boy he really liked you i saw how he engaged with your your competitor over there making me cry basically this so many times i you have too i'm sure so many times yeah yeah yeah i mean this This is a pretty

Zain 36:03

pretty meaningless interaction. A

Corey 36:05

A completely meaningless interaction that will be forgotten by the politicians seconds later. So I'm so sorry to be bursting the bubbles of any executive out there who is hearing this and being like, oh,

Corey 36:17

oh, shit, that happened to me last week. Guess what?

Corey 36:21

Didn't mean anything to anybody else. OK, but yeah, I mean, like the reality is everybody is playing that game, Zane. And that's the point that I wanted to make.

Zain 36:28

This is one of the areas I wanted to tackle. So I'm glad you brought it up. Carter Stafford is another. So I'll come back to that. But Corey's on this topic. Let's talk about this. Carter, how do you have a meaningful interaction with a minister or a premier or someone you need as an organization or as someone who wants to get another follow-up conversation or a meeting? And more so, I kind of ask, how do you do it and not being annoying? Because it's not just one meeting. You're trying to bump into this person multiple times over the course of 10 days. in fact it's part of your strategy to be like hey you again right full well knowing that the only reason you're there is to bump into that minister or one of the few people that you wanted to talk yeah right and so you know that they might know that if they're savvy if they know what your file is they know that so then how do you do it carter that's that tries to add as much meaning and that tries to not make you just on an interpersonal level annoying as fucking shit because i imagine they have thousands of conversations five of them with the same person starts to get pretty annoying if they're annoying they're

Carter 37:28

they're all annoying i mean to be clear um every single one of those you know the only ones that aren't annoying the guy or the person you meet in the back of the room who's like i

Carter 37:41

i am so fucking over this i am i mean i remember being in one of those chuck wagon booths you know like we're sitting in the grandstand and i'm like i can't talk to another person if i talk to another person i will kill them and someone sits down beside me and just says i brought you a water yeah

Carter 37:59

and that and then they don't say another fucking word now all of a sudden i'm interested in who that person is because that person is just being kind and they haven't asked me for fuck all and that person i'll go so what's your what's your deal you

Carter 38:12

you know who it is invariably it

Carter 38:14

it is it is the partner of someone who's trying to get you know to deal with the primary it is never someone who doesn't have something to ask for if you don't have something to ask if you have something to ask for during

Carter 38:28

low play because the low play will be remembered the hard play will not it's just as impossible is

Zain 38:35

is the advice almost don't ask for it i don't get to you corey corey is eager to get it

Corey 38:40

it on this point i

Corey 38:41

yeah well listen like i just gotta say like even if i thought that was an interesting tactic here and let's be clear it's not really a strategy so much as a tactic right yeah it's

Corey 38:49

it's not anymore more because you've said it on a podcast that tens of thousands of people listen to about political strategy literally anything we say here will be bad advice because the the the actual strategy here has to be break the mold if you want to be remembered by these people you have to be different from literally everybody else that they're talking to and so as they are very polished creating their messages and saying you know there's just like one thing i need you to know about this place or you know one thing that my company could do for the government here you can't be that person and i don't know how to tell you how to not be that person because the minute i say it or steven says it or even zane says it that's now out there right and it's not going to be a thing anymore like that was even

Zain 39:29

even zane as if like if i came up with an

Corey 39:32

that would be usable even zane even

Corey 39:34

zane could come up with something that would then be unusable

Corey 39:38

actually i think that sentence works basically every day i think it always does thank you i I appreciate that.

Zain 39:48

Corey, what would your take be on how not to be annoying when you're trying to bump into that same person multiple times? Even if it's just a FYI, we exist in the ether, and I'm glad you know about us now. That's the basis of your ask. How do you not be annoying about it? How do you not be someone that stands out, to your point, in the wrong way? well again like i feel if i say it

Corey 40:11

it it will now become annoying right no but i'm serious but like it would be even just saying like hey listen you know this this is a funny like 10 days everybody's trying to get your ear i'll

Corey 40:23

i'll make you a deal i'm not gonna bother you for the next eight events on this same bloody thing but we are actually gonna talk about this because it's really important that you know about this can you make that deal with me we'll make that like you would do something fun like that you can't anymore because i've now fucking said it again but you've got to be aware that desperation is a stinky cologne you can't come off as somebody who's just like way too thirsty for the interactions exactly um and

Corey 40:48

and you've got to find a punchy memorable way that people remember you remember your key message remember your asks and that is sort of the nature of pr that's the nature of advertising and those tactics are ever shifting said this before in different context but the very first person who put up one of those inflatable arm guys at the side of the road sold a shit ton of cars that month guaranteed right i've never seen that that's

Carter 41:11

that's caught my attention oh

Corey 41:11

oh that's in a chrysler dealership i'm gonna jump in there and i'm gonna get myself one you know didn't

Corey 41:16

didn't work by the time they were on literally every corner and so the tactics in in the attention business and we are all in the attention business in some way shape or form the tactics in the attention business are ever shifting based on trends based on saturation so you've just got to find a way to

Corey 41:34

to be in your own space you can't seem desperate about it you can't be desperate about it because then

Corey 41:39

will seem desperate and you just got to figure it fucking out well

Zain 41:42

well carter you know this is this is actually a very interesting topic to me around how you get the ear of someone who's clearly got the leverage in the sense of they've got what you need and And there's this weird 10-day scenario. How much of a risk should someone take to stand out, Carter? If you were giving a client advice, let's say they're asked tomorrow what was a particular minister. To stand out, let's just say they're like, you know, they're like, yeah, how much of a risk should they take if this is like their first and only sort of first foot forward with a new minister that could be on their file for two, three, four years? I

Carter 42:15

I don't know if I'd take much risk at all.

Zain 42:19

you want to be one of the forgettable conversations and then just hope you're one of the folks that has aligned calendars or can follow up in some way

Carter 42:26

I'm going to try

Carter 42:28

to be a bit I would hope that my ask is strong enough that it can exist outside of Stampede this is the greatest public relations activity in Calgary it's one of the best in Canada

Carter 42:42

but public relations doesn't necessarily equal equal, um, government relations. And the, just because the government is making sure that they are hearing everybody that's around doesn't make, doesn't mean that they're listening to anyone. So my, you know, the, the hearing versus listening discussion would be really difficult. If I was advising a client for this, I mean, fuck, you know what I do? I try and get the fuck out of Dodge. I don't want to be here. I don't want to be the guy who even appears to be the one looking for the minister's, uh, ear. I don't want to be the person who even looks like i need something from these guys i want to appear like i am above all of this and maybe that's the risk that i would take is really i am so like i am such i am so much better than this opportunity is something that i would love to be able to message

Zain 43:35

cory i need your take on that to me on the surface that seems like i mean if you think it's a zero-sum game you'd probably be like fuck i'm losing if i'm not here but cory your take on on this um

Corey 43:45

my take is that the reason the relationship at stampede doesn't work as well as you want is that asymmetry we talked about yeah there's this allusion to porter's five forces i was talking about you know where you have too many suppliers and only one buyer right so

Corey 43:59

so you've got to look for different relationships there and there's a very obvious one at stampede and i think it's a great in if you have both the right personality if you're at the right level all of that work the staff you know the staff are often especially if there's more than one person and going with the minister there's probably the body person and then there's probably a couple of hangers on or people around who you know often don't have that profile don't have people coming up to them all the time but do do get the minister's ear and it is an interesting avenue in in my opinion a lot of the time and and so make sure you know who the people around the minister are too think about this in terms of concentric circles yes the minister's at the center who are the people the minister listens to that are going with the minister to these events that are around the minister and quite often can i tell you in my experience going to many events they're often standing alone they're often watching the opposite the stuff from across the way i'll often at events especially events that like my employer is hosting if i see someone standing alone you know because you want them to have a good time i'll go up i'll introduce myself i'll talk to them i

Corey 45:03

i would say about 50 of the time that i do that that person ends up being a political staffer and we'll even and be like hey no i'm just here for them yeah you know yeah yeah

Corey 45:12

waiting till someone asks me

Zain 45:13

me to take a picture or whatever

Corey 45:15

whatever yeah it doesn't mean you

Zain 45:15

you have to stop

Corey 45:16

stop talking to them you're

Corey 45:16

you're like oh that's cool right yeah i mean you know and you can have a conversation with them you can give your card you know you can make it more about your interaction with them than your desired interaction with the minister and just say like yeah that's it's a really cool job maybe you've got a connection like i did a job like that when i was you know when i was around your age if you're older or something like that. And, you

Corey 45:37

know, just make yourself open and make sure that you're making connections to the people that the minister cares about and has connections with.

Zain 45:44

Carter, there's still a few more threads I want to pull on here. But here's one that Corey's just introduced as well. He answered the staffer question that I wanted to get to ultimately that you brought up around, do you lobby the staffer? And so I want your take on this before I get to the next part of this, which is around hosting and organizational hosting and the value around that. So Carter, give me your take on staffers and then we'll move to the next next part i

Carter 46:04

i just love that i mean i think that you know having been the staffer i mean it's just a brutal day um often these ministers that are coming out are bringing out people who have literally no connections in the market they are you know they're this is their first stampede likely their only stampede i guarantee you they're not wearing the right costume and they're self-conscious about it um you know like there's there's all kinds of things that just being nice to them is going to probably help you a hell of a lot more than actually you know trying to pigeonhole their minister and get your message across so i really i really do like that and

Corey 46:43

and listen it's it's about the relationships that you connect you don't need to be like oh great let me tell you about my organization's ass you're

Zain 46:49

not lobbying them that that no

Corey 46:50

no you don't yeah

Corey 46:52

make the connection right that connection will be productive if you're in an organization that works with the government that will be productive in a lot of different ways that you can't even even anticipate right now in month one of a government i i think it's really just about being a decent human being who likes to network and and connects with people and remembering that the network is not just one person like we put so much on the one person but that one person looks so big because they have an army of people around them and it's the army of people you've got to pay some attention to as well hey

Zain 47:22

carter what what if i'm

Carter 47:22

i'm just gonna give one more hint and that is you know if you do find a political staffer in the wild and they are not having you

Carter 47:29

you you know, they're not having a great time or they're just kind of sitting on the side, bring up the strategists. They listen to the strategists. It's like a given that they're going to hear that they know exactly who we are. And give us then the feedback. I mean, which minister's staff listens the most? Which minister's staff loves us the most? I mean, all of them do, but this is a great piece of feedback for all of us. Also,

Corey 47:52

Also, be aware, as I said, because we've now said this, staffers are going to be deeply cynical about every conversation we've ruined conversations during stampede you feel like we've got a hundred percent penetration we

Carter 48:04

we have a hundred percent penetration right

Corey 48:05

right we have a hundred percent i don't

Carter 48:07

think you've seen our numbers zane you don't pay attention at

Corey 48:10

numbers i see how many government servers are downloading our episodes

Carter 48:13

episodes it's embarrassing actually he's stalking them and putting advertising on their servers before

Zain 48:18

before i get to before i get to host actually let's just get to hosting because i think the last one will end on um carter if an organization came to you said, am I okay attending eight events where I can accidentally bump into a minister? Do I need to host something? I've got an ask. I've maybe got a bit of money. I can probably pull together a couple hundred of my concentric circles to fill a room and we can invite folks. Do we host something or do we just keep going around the block? What do we do here? I find that interesting in the sense of organizations that have something and maybe even have a bit of resources. Would you you suggest that they just be seen everywhere or do they expand their circle expand their network to try to bring the minister in sort of that's interesting

Carter 48:59

interesting because one of my clients is is was wondering the same thing and they're coming and they're going to go to a bunch of events um i didn't say don't host an event like

Zain 49:07

like they've concluded yeah they've concluded that that's what their strategy is right you

Carter 49:10

you know my my advice was if you want to host an event make sure that it is for a reason not to host politicians so if you've got internal stakeholders that you need to to to win over you know then then host the event for your internal stakeholders if your internal stakeholders don't give a shit if you host an event then don't host an event go to other people's events um because at the end of the day you don't need to be the host of something and there is nothing worse than putting together an event to host a politician and no one comes oh

Corey 49:40

oh i i was just gonna say yeah like would the event be a failure if the minister didn't show up then then probably don't

Zain 49:45

don't do the event, right? That's

Zain 49:47

my advice. I think that's great advice. I guess the point I wanted to make was in the follow-up,

Zain 49:54

is it helpful when you follow up with that minister or their staff to say we met at X event versus we met at R event?

Zain 50:02

Is there any difference between someone meeting on your turf versus meeting on neutral turf? I guess that's the – and this is nerdy of me, but I feel like this is fascinating to me in terms of like – i mean these are probably the calculations organizations are going through right yeah like

Zain 50:16

we met on our turf you we hosted you there's a

Corey 50:20

a bit of like that

Zain 50:20

doesn't matter or capital you're making it or

Corey 50:22

or is there not they go to so many events a day they're not even a it's not great if you hosted them and you're having to reintroduce yourself let's put it that way but like they go to so so many events like you you're getting no credit for that like you put on a stampede of congratulations you put on a stamp like

Corey 50:40

else you and literally everybody else in the city plus

Carter 50:43

plus you know um you could literally go into their office and say we met at this event and they'd say oh yeah yeah good to see you again no fucking clue you know yes

Zain 50:53

yes yeah any any politician worth their weight will say

Zain 50:55

say oh my god in

Corey 50:56

in fact go to nelson for the week and

Corey 50:58

and then just say that anyway we're

Carter 51:00

to revelstoke we're going to uh revelstoke and golden so if you want to if you want to see us during stampede you're

Zain 51:08

you're not going to attend the the gr circuit carter is you know that's so sad no

Carter 51:12

no i'm gonna i'm gonna let you in a little secret i don't like gr guys and

Zain 51:18

and i am not

Zain 51:18

not a gr you're

Zain 51:19

you're not you're not coming to the smiley breakfast that's well

Carter 51:21

well i'm gonna come to the smiley breakfast but that's only because they got the best menu that is spectacular insider

Carter 51:27

insider tip that's the breakfast to go to that

Zain 51:30

that is actually a

Zain 51:30

good breakfast yeah um question

Zain 51:33

question for you social

Zain 51:36

can we talk about social skills

Carter 51:37

skills we're the people here's

Zain 51:40

here's what's interesting to me because at the end of the day this is flexing one of the muscles that you would want as an mla which is the retail politician side right cory so this is your 10 day degree in one module this is not the be all end all of doing your job right and i don't think we were saying that but it is one module but carter first impressions also matter so do you want folks to meet your critic or your minister while they're still learning learning these skills they'll be good at day 10 but like suppose i meet you in day one be like fuck that minister is a total dumbass right how many times have we heard that from folks being like fuck this guy just does not know what he's doing like are you concerned and i go back now to the politician's question as a leader as a chief of staff as someone running the party apparatus that people are getting their degree while having live wire scenarios there's no sandbox that they're playing in they're actually getting their degree in first impressions you're eager to jump I was going

Carter 52:34

going to say, no, no, doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. And then I remembered the first stampede that the NDP were elected in Alberta. I went to a number of MLA breakfasts. I can't remember what I was trying to do. this

Carter 52:48

2015 who i was trying to suck up to and why but uh i went to a number of breakfasts and i remember meeting these this first crop of of mlas and leaving going oh fuck they're not good and yeah i mean it did color my impression and uh you know they did get better um but But yeah,

Carter 53:13

yeah, it did leave a stain. Like it didn't, it left a mark. And I wish that it hadn't, but it did.

Zain 53:23

Corey, the question is really about, is there more risk than we may think in terms of the reward? Clearly, you've spelled it out and it's compelling. Talk to me about the risk side on that. Well,

Corey 53:33

Well, Carter, look, I'll say two things. One is, I remember going to actually that Ismaili breakfast in 2015 and running into, it must have been seven of them, new MLAs, just talking to each other.

Corey 53:48

other. I think we were there together.

Corey 53:49

Yeah, you and I were there together. Yeah, we were there together. Yeah,

Corey 53:52

It was them, and

Zain 53:52

and for some reason, Tom Mulcair showed up, and remember

Corey 53:58

Yeah, well, the stampede, man. What a trip. And this is 2015, folks. He was the leader of the official opposition. And he was on the pathway of winning it. Yeah, he was like leading in the polls. So yeah, I had a similar reaction to Stephen, not nearly as harsh, more like, oh boy, they don't know how to network at all, right? Like, they've got some pretty foundational political skills that they need to develop. Like, we talk about ministers. My God, like these people don't know how to be candidates, let alone MLAs, right? And I think that's what I want to underline. It was such an extraordinary election. People who thought they were paper candidates who didn't do any campaigning won. That

Corey 54:38

That happens once in a blue moon.

Corey 54:40

Well, blue moons actually happen much more frequently than that.

Corey 54:45

Yes. Like, I can think of 84 with Mulroney. I can think of 2015 with Notley. I can't really think of a ton other than that. You know, it happens every now and then. I'm sure your province has an example wherever you are listening to this, but that's a bit of an extreme one. The reality is the risk should not be for somebody who's been a candidate and has gone door to door and has gone to a ton of events that they come off like a totally unapproachable

Corey 55:09

unapproachable dumbass. That should not be the risk. They should have some of those foundational networking, glad-handing skills by this point. The risk should be more, what have they committed to? Have they optimized this? Have they captured any data? Are they any good at that? And those are the skills that I think you can build in those 10 days. Like at the end of the first day, if you look back and you're like, I don't know who I met and I have no notes and I didn't interact with anyone, they probably still feel okay with it.

Corey 55:37

You should feel bad with it if you're a politician. And so, you know, it depends on where you are on the curve. Obviously, 2015 provides us a very low on the curve example that we've all given examples to now. But I

Zain 55:49

the point that I have is would you train – would you have people – would you still be like the risk is low enough that you're going to have enough interactions? We're not going to pre-train you for having these conversations. Just get out there and whatever happens on the back end, you'll be better for it because this is a four-year exercise, not a 10-day one. No,

Corey 56:04

No, no. I mean I think there's a difference between like saying like you've all got to go to remedial stampede camp for a week and saying here's some instructions that I am providing you here. And I do want to get back to this notion of like the drunk on power, actually drunk MLAs, right? Like you have to say, like the bigger risk for me is like they start to really feel themselves. They just got elected. They think they can conquer the fucking world. Can I tell you as a former bureaucrat what's annoying about new governments? They think they can conquer the fucking world. And then, you know, a year later, they're the exact opposite. Like they're afraid of their own shadows. They're in total bunker mode, right? This is the arc of every new government, and there are such hazards with that first step, but it's all ego-driven. It's all attitudinal. And as the leader, as

Corey 56:52

as the leader's staff, you have a role to play in telling them, like, yeah, fucking

Corey 56:57

fucking watch it. You know, and Jim Denning tells a story about how, like, when you're an MLA, when you're a minister in particular, like, wear your honorable lightly. Like, don't act as though you're the biggest shit in shit town just because you happen to be a minister of the crown. Like, you've got to be a lot more grounded than that.

Zain 57:15

Carter, if you buy my frame, I pose to Corey, which is before

Zain 57:19

Stampede, you're trying to make friends, or the Stampede before an election, I should say. You're trying to make friends. Stampede after an election, in some way, everyone is trying to be your friend, right? If you kind of buy that overarching framework, three Stampedes from now, these people will need some friends, the

Zain 57:35

the folks that have now the asymmetry in some way. So the question I have for you is, what lessons, if any, would you have people for politicians for their retail exercise over the course of the next 10 days? And let's just expand it to every corner of this country over the barbecue circuit over summer, right? What would you advise people in terms of making their retail robust, in terms of making it memorable so that they're not just there for the transaction, action that they can hopefully in three years from now count on some of people, some of these folks that they've interacted with to be their friends. You've got Corey's challenge of not over committing or not narrowly committing in certain cases, right? You've got your sort of scheduling sort of opportunities, but people want to get to know you. How do you, in the most macro sense, roll that up three years from now in terms of them being there for you? Because that's ultimately what you're in the business for. As much as it's getting shit done, it's also that. So talk to me on the macro as we finish off this topic. As a politician's goal, their firehose that is Stampede, their firehose that is this summer for many of them. How do, in the Alberta case, three years from now, these folks, whether they're on the opposition or government side, count on the folks that they interact with to be there for them? Learn

Carter 58:47

Learn from the greats and the greats in this particular marketplace of retail politics. I look at Brian Mulroney and the sainted Kent Hare, who we've referred to as one of the best retail politicians that we've ever seen. and the reason is they are genuinely interested in you and they remember details about you right

Carter 59:12

right there are cards created there are briefing notes the the body person set whispers in the the principal's ear this is the person this is who you're about to meet this is what they care about this is when you last saw them these are the names of their children all of that information is internalized by the by the principal and remembered and used so you're going to blow that guy off you're not going to see them you're not going to have the meeting you're not going to give them the project that they want but they're going to feel like you were remembering them that they were important to you and then you were fighting for them even if you couldn't deliver

Carter 59:47

what they wanted from you that's a super important uh technique to use and the greats of it almost make it look like it's absolutely seamless but the greats are hiding the work like the greats in anything right the greats in podcasting like the three of us we just we nail it every time because we make it look easy right it's not easy and and you know the kent hairs and the and the the mulroonies these people make it look easy when it requires discipline and it requires work remember people's names when you see them again give them a little nudge make them feel like you know i remember you you're

Carter 1:00:26

you're important to me that's

Carter 1:00:28

that's the way to make these things successful successful.

Zain 1:00:31

Corey, your macro advice in that same question.

Corey 1:00:35

Well, so we've talked about this through a couple of different angles. One thing that Steven introduced here that I think is really important is if you're a politician and

Corey 1:00:45

you know that their goal is to feed you their one message and their biggest ask, you really want to wow them?

Corey 1:00:53

You show you know who they are. You

Corey 1:00:55

You show you know what their ask is you show you know what their objectives are right from the jump like oh like imagine he runs into uh using right and uh of course you are uh a member of the board of the strategist media corporation says zane velgey uh yeah you're you're on the board of the strategist media corporation you're you're like the person who's on the show fourth most frequently that's pretty cool that's

Carter 1:01:21

that's really good yeah really

Corey 1:01:22

really impressive and um and

Corey 1:01:25

and of course that will make you feel good because he knows who you are i'm in the top four yeah yeah you're in the top four

Corey 1:01:31

you're almost on the podium yeah and

Corey 1:01:34

and then when he starts talking about that strategist media corporation tax cut which you've obviously been pushing for which

Corey 1:01:41

which is why we

Corey 1:01:42

sent you to the ndp campaign

Corey 1:01:43

campaign to begin with yes absolutely yeah and i got it done you

Carter 1:01:48

want to tell us why you you lost yet zane

Carter 1:01:50

do you want to tell us yeah why'd you lose zane

Corey 1:01:52

are we ready for that

Carter 1:01:53

that when's that episode happening because

Corey 1:01:55

because it's like it's the one hour mark of this podcast but i'd be willing to do another hour right now on that let's not get

Carter 1:02:01

get ahead of ourselves anyhow

Corey 1:02:03

point being if it showed if he knew that you had the interest in that strategist media corporation tax credit knew who you were you're gonna remember that because again that's your most important interaction of of the day. It wasn't anything to the politician, but wow, that's going to set you up for an amazing relationship over those next few years.

Zain 1:02:23

How would Carter, a politician, know that? Would that be just pre-homework, being like, here's your top 50 stakeholders? Minister, you got to know their file. Here's who you're going to see. If you see this person, remember that's Ed, remember that's John, remember that's Joanne, remember that's Zane. And these are the stakeholders that reach out to us most frequently. How would you coach that? I'm just now actually tactically curious more so than strategically curious in that regard, Carter.

Carter 1:02:45

Carter. I mean, we literally used to use cards. We would say, these are the people you're going to run into. This breakfast is going to have these people at it. This is the president's breakfast. The president's breakfast always has the following types of people at it. Here's what you need to remember from them. And then we would brief on the way in. I mean, this is why it's so hard on the staffer. Staffer drops the person off at home at the end of the day. and then immediately begins their study for tomorrow it is a tremendous amount of work

Corey 1:03:17

yeah you know before there was facebook we used to make facebook yeah steven will remember this is literally like a book this is the person's picture this is a few nuggets on them that you need to know that will allow you to have interactions with them like you've met them before they care about this these are their interactions and a good politician has especially if you're a minister has a robust enough staff that at least the important people you're going to have on there like the important to you i mean like there might be other important people but you have objectives as well going out as a minister oh i've got to have a relationship with them with that person and

Corey 1:03:53

and then and you're going to be able to go out you're going to be able to just like bam hit the ground running you walk right up to them and talk to them about that strategist media corporation tax credit well

Zain 1:04:02

well carter here's the final question is and i'm Go ahead, end us off.

Carter 1:04:06

Well, no, I forgot what I was going to say, Zane,

Carter 1:04:08

but I was going to say something brilliant. Here's a question. It

Carter 1:04:10

It was so good. As the fourth most frequent

Zain 1:04:12

frequent person on this pod, I have a question for you, Carter.

Zain 1:04:16

Here's a final question on both sides of the equation. For those who want to ask the government of something and those politicians who are going to be out there for the next 10 days,

Zain 1:04:24

are you trying to become friends with one another or is this different? Right, because at the end of the day, there is a transaction that is to be had, but that transaction can be coded in friendship And I put friendship in air quotes for those that can't see. Or it could be actual true. What is the best way to get your shit done? Is friendship what people are looking for in a certain way? And I know it's a weird question, but I think it's an appropriate one given what we're trying to do. You interact with someone multiple times over a week, you might be able to call them a friend by the time two Sundays from now sort of thing. So I guess that is my question. Is that one of the sub-objectives, so to speak, on either side of the equation? And I'm curious because I know that is some people's strategy in that regard. I

Carter 1:05:05

I mean, they could certainly try and they may be able to create something that vaguely resembles friendship. But I remembered what I was going to say, and that is a good staffer is also telling the minister what they are not able to agree to. Right. So if

Carter 1:05:18

if you're the minister, if you're in this, or you're the minister, you're in the MLA, go back to Corey's initial point, right? Do not commit to something that this government cannot stand by. in fact don't commit to anything at all because you don't know what this government can stand by because you're the junior minister i mean everyone's a minister everyone's a critic so everybody's got a rule but no one's got the ability to say yes and you know being

Carter 1:05:46

being able to say no um i mean you can we can say no to our friends to be sure i mean you've said no to cory and i i about recording what five six hundred times in the last couple of months and

Carter 1:05:59

know we i mean we take it a little personally now but you know we get past it you

Zain 1:06:04

you leave me on red for the most part even if i say i've got serious we do now it's fine yeah i left on red serious medical

Carter 1:06:11

medical issues how many fucking times do you think you're going to be able to use that with us i mean how many times because it's getting old that's

Carter 1:06:17

that's all i have to say yeah

Zain 1:06:18

yeah it is getting old um

Carter 1:06:19

um cory no No, it's old. Are you done? I'm done now. Same

Corey 1:06:24

Is that a goal?

Corey 1:06:27

the word friend has been seriously diluted if you can make one over like a couple of Stampede events, right? That's the Facebook version of friend, I suppose. Sure, sure.

Zain 1:06:36

I still put it in quotes.

Corey 1:06:37

Yeah, I don't think it's friendship. I mean, friendly, I think, is a valuable tactic for both sides to foster, right? You want to be friendly with these individuals because that gets you a certain charity in interactions, right? Right. And I remember Scott Bryson, um,

Corey 1:06:52

Carter and I are both telling stories about back when we were body, like I, I didn't work for Scott Bryson, but I was staffing him at an event this way back, uh, in, in the two thousands, he just joined the liberal party. And, um, I remember we were going to an event down South of Calgary and I think it was the riding was probably

Carter 1:07:11

probably stopped the year before sorry yeah

Corey 1:07:14

yeah it's so funny and and uh scott says who's the local mp down here and i can't remember who it was now but i tell scott and so scott calls this person's personal phone number which he's gone to the trouble of getting the personal phone numbers of clearly every mp in the country in his

Corey 1:07:33

right and he says hey it's scott i just wanted you to know i'm I'm doing an event and you're riding. This is the nature of the event. Anyways, hope you're doing really well. Take care. If you have any questions at all, you be sure to give me a call, right? Hangs up. He says to me, really great advice. I remember it. He's like, you know, it's not like he's going to stop punching me, but maybe he'll punch me a little lighter next time. And so there was this idea that just by creating that friendly relationship, you made it a little harder for the punch to land hard. And so that's useful. That's useful for a politician. That's useful for somebody who is trying to get something out of a politician. And so, yeah, you should aim for friendly. But know that friendly is a tactic. And know they're not your actual friends. My God. I mean, how many actual friends can a human being, an adult human being have? I

Zain 1:08:34

Why is it so funny? It's funny because there's two of us here right now, Zane.

Corey 1:08:38

joke. I don't think

Corey 1:08:38

think it's me. I don't think it's me.

Zain 1:08:41

myself out very quickly.

Zain 1:08:44

Is it the two middle-aged white dudes laughing in unison?

Zain 1:08:48

Or is it the brown guy that he's friends with? I

Corey 1:08:52

All right. Well, the point being, maybe a handful, and now you're a politician meeting, you don't have any free time. Like, they're not actually going to be your friends. You're not going to call them up when this is all said and done.

Corey 1:09:05

So just know what this game actually is.

Zain 1:09:08

Carter, let's move it on to our over, under, and our lightning round. We, of course, do this for you.

Zain 1:09:12

Are you in or out from the pure relationship building? I ask you this every year on the Calgary Stampede. You're in or out. You hate it. You leave. You go away. I know you do all that. But if you have something you want done, or if you're a minister or an MLA or a candidate or federal government, city, county, whatever, it doesn't matter. Are you in or out, Carter? Over. I'm out.

Carter 1:09:31

i don't know if i if i need to talk to a minister you know what i do i pick up the fucking telephone and i call the minister boom

Zain 1:09:39

because you're friends with them because

Carter 1:09:40

because i'm friends with them and and they yeah okay perfect thank you so much hear me they

Zain 1:09:44

me i don't know if that's the word um you

Corey 1:09:47

you are a cautionary tale if that's what you mean

Zain 1:09:50

mean carter's one friend is is constantly rotating it's a one friend

Corey 1:09:54

rotation It's one at a time. It's

Zain 1:09:58

It's like old Christmas lights.

Zain 1:10:00

Carter, Thursday morning when we meet for coffee, I think it's going to be me. Corey, question for you. You're in or out, all things considered, on the Calgary Stampede.

Corey 1:10:09

uh i mean as i i'm in i think that when you think about it in terms of politics relationships matter they matter a lot to your stakeholders as we mentioned like how many 10-day periods are you going to find i

Corey 1:10:22

i don't know literally a thousand people who are desperate to talk to you and are excited to tell you what matters to them like as a politician every

Carter 1:10:29

every 10-day period for me yeah this

Carter 1:10:31

is all the time i don't understand yeah and

Corey 1:10:33

and i'll say as a politician each of those interactions may matter less to you than an out of stampede interaction just because it's such a saturated day there's so many things going on but the sheer volume of interactions you have more than makes up for that like it's just it's the super bowl of politics in alberta it really is and by the way not just alberta we've been focusing a lot on alberta fucking

Corey 1:10:56

fucking every federal politician is going to be in this city in the next 10 days as well you know everyone they're all going to drop in They're all going to do these things because everybody is already here. It's like it's the original network effect. Like people are just expected to be at the Calgary Stampede.

Zain 1:11:12

Boy, are you in or out? This may have been happening for a long time, but I hadn't heard about it until this time. The city of Edmonton is hosting a stampede event of its own. They're shipping. They're bringing their stars, their mayor, folks from their city council. They're coming to Edmonton. They're hosting their own events, I believe, later this week. Are you in or out on that strategy for the fine city of Edmonton three hours north of us?

Corey 1:11:35

So I didn't hear this. So the city of Edmonton is coming to Calgary and running an Edmonton event in Calgary? That is correct. How

Carter 1:11:40

How did we not get invited?

Carter 1:11:42

This is – I don't even know if I was invited.

Corey 1:11:44

invited. I don't even know if I was invited. But I know it's happening.

Corey 1:11:47

The way you said I makes me think that you think you would be on the invite list ahead of me. Yeah,

Zain 1:11:53

this is very – I 100% would

Zain 1:11:56

it's Edmonton. Fuck, are you kidding me? I would make the party. That's

Corey 1:12:02

That's a fair point.

Zain 1:12:03

On a strategy level. What do you think of that? It's almost like, you know, it's like tourism sort of strategy in some ways, right? But I kind of want your take on this.

Corey 1:12:11

this. Yeah, like, listen, in some ways, it's Stephen Carter's advice about, like, his client, do I go to the event or do I hold my own event writ large? Do I try to get everybody to K-Days or Expo, whatever Edmonton's calling their thing now? Or do I go to the Calgary Stampede, the greatest outdoor show on earth where literally everybody already is? It

Corey 1:12:31

kind of makes sense. Like, I don't know. I mean, like, as an Edmontonian, my ego might be a little bruised to have to come to the Calgary Stampede, but it makes a ton of

Carter 1:12:39

of sense. the edmontonians

Carter 1:12:39

edmontonians won't be able to read about it or anything because they you know

Corey 1:12:43

know like so many listeners yeah

Corey 1:12:45

there were until this last like past well if

Zain 1:12:48

if if that event is indeed real please invite us and and one of us uh may or may not attend um carter are you in or out on it oh

Zain 1:12:57

saying i spent half my adult

Zain 1:12:58

in edmonton okay i'm a little

Carter 1:12:59

little bit pissed that i wasn't invited to be honest if i don't get events to say no to i don't even know how to proceed

Zain 1:13:06

that's a fair Fair point. So Carter, final question for you. Advice for the federal parties heading into Stampede. Generic advice. You can get specific if you'd like, if you want to tease it out for the liberals. They're in a different sort of election cycle, but this might be the Stampede before an election. We never know, right? But it's also Alberta, so there's also a different dynamic here when you're looking at the entire map. But any advice you'd give them? Are you loaning some of Corey's advice and saying, bring your MPs out here, make this a sandbox for retail politics that you can use at the doors are you what do you what do you kind of think enough if you're giving advice to the federal parties heading you know heading into stampede season starting in a couple of days

Carter 1:13:45

days i mean i think that everybody has to come out and do their thing but i don't think that like if i'm the ndp i'm not thinking you

Carter 1:13:52

you know this is this is the time that we're going to turn it all around like have reasonable expectations for what it is that you think you're going to be able to do and and just focus on those reasonable expectations it's it's it's mandatory but it is not expected that you're going to change your entire future uh just because you attend the the calgary stampede like don't give away your your principles just come out have a good time stay

Zain 1:14:21

final word to you advice for the federal federal parties as they head into calgary stampede season well

Corey 1:14:27

well i think really just having clarity as to what you want out of it the interactions you want to have the people you want to meet if you're the ndp is it a chance to get all of like the ndp organizers who are going to naturally begin meeting because

Corey 1:14:40

because of the their provincial strength and try to get your claws into them if you're the federal party is that your strategy if you're the liberals is it to build connections with power brokers in downtown calgary or that's going to dictate what events you go to uh you know where you're seeing and what you do just having clear intentions and building your agenda around them rather than just treating it as like well i gotta go to stampede i gotta check that box or we gotta send somebody to stampede so they're gonna go to stampede and knowing what you're trying to do will dictate a lot of what follows the problem with any major event like this which becomes like this calendar tent pole where everybody has to go is it becomes an objective in its own right and people forget why it was an objective in the first place like why they bothered to go to these events so refocusing on on outcomes, being really strong with yourself as to metrics, the things you're going to get done, the people you're going to meet, the volume of activity. That's my advice to federal parties.

Zain 1:15:36

We're going to leave it there. That's a wrap on episode 1080 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velgey. With me, as always, Stephen Carter, my only friend, Corey Hogan, and we'll see you next time.

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