Episode 1058: Heir today, gone tomorrow

Zain 0:02

This is a strategist episode 1058. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, okay, tell me, tell me what's what's going on. You guys just been texting me about Bob. Who the fuck is Bob? Is Bob the same as Dave? Are these interchangeable white person names? Tell me what the hell is going on before we get started on the show. Well, first

Carter 0:23

of all, I'd like to apologize on behalf of Corey and I for pulling your Patreon subscription, but

Carter 0:27

but you weren't pulling your weight. And frankly, I was not pulling

Zain 0:30

pulling my weight. This is true. Frankly,

Carter 0:31

Frankly, we thought, you know what? With you working on the NDP campaign, we didn't want our ideas to go out for for like six bucks each. We could have we should have been getting paid on this fucking campaign is what we're trying to get across. So anyways, we brought it. We had an epic episode. Hey, Corey, best

Carter 0:47

best episode ever, I'd

Corey 0:49

I think so. So, yeah, I heard things like, it was great. Finally, questions were asked.

Zain 0:58

You're killing me. You're killing me. Questions, let me tell you something about questions.

Zain 1:03

Overrated. Overrated questions. Let me tell you something about questions, Carter.

Zain 1:07

Overrated. Yeah, go ahead. Here's

Carter 1:08

Here's a piece of feedback I did not expect to get. I'm really glad you guys answered the questions. That was something I'd never expected to hear. So, I feel

Zain 1:18

like you're pitting me against Annalise. every every show just a little bit by bit well as soon as i'll be unemployed which i'm

Corey 1:25

is the natural conclusion of of this podcast zane don't don't flatter yourself uh you and annalise is not a contest yeah

Carter 1:32

yeah that's not even close it is super nice

Zain 1:35

the reason i bring it up is because i wanted to fucking promo the patreon um it was good it was a good episode can you can you please yeah can you beyond good tell give people a bit of a teaser cory and by which i i mean tell me what you did because i have no idea so

Corey 1:47

so there were there were questions that were asked i think i mentioned that part before yeah there were there were answers answers given and

Carter 1:54

and then we did a skit we did a skit which was really nice no

Corey 1:57

no don't yeah the skit was great you're giving away too much i'm sorry way too much skit is too much it

Zain 2:03

was a really good i heard there was something about signs involved is that is that true well the name of the episode is

Corey 2:08

is all No, no, it's not. That was the other episode.

Zain 2:12

episode. Oh, was that the other episode?

Zain 2:14

Jesus Christ, you're terrible. You're terrible. I give you softballs to just hit out of the park, Carter.

Carter 2:20

Do you have any idea how much we're recording and how little you're recording? Like we are, these

Carter 2:25

these are our fingers being worked to the bone. My throat is sore from all the talking.

Zain 2:31

This is a lot of needless insight that you guys are providing on a weekly basis. Listen,

Carter 2:35

Listen, you know what's getting us? A ton of media attention. engine like holy crap media

Carter 2:40

media whore that's what i am what media are you doing i've gotten so much media i'm starting to feel like you you

Carter 2:47

you know fair enough that's how much media this

Zain 2:49

this is what happens when zane velgey leaves space in the ecosystem it's fantastic when he takes when he takes a break that's exactly what happens carter hey listen um i do want to talk about science core i told you i will not talk about the provincial election as you guys have mentioned i'm working on the ndp campaign so i'm conflicted and in a sense to to talk about what's going on in that campaign but cory i do want to talk about a very important thing i want to talk about the science of sign placement because cory you've got some thoughts uh

Zain 3:13

uh carter you've got some thoughts uh you've been seeing some signs being placed across the city i'm not going to talk about what color those signs are you guys can talk talk to annalise about that the sign wars etc you may have already done so why would i know why would you know why

Carter 3:26

why would yeah why would you listen but carter we are experiencing a

Zain 3:28

a trend perhaps or a new movement in the sign game uh it is now the Should the sign face the outside of the road, or should it be placed sideways so it captures both sides of traffic? This seems to be a debate that I'm about to really try to put some energy into, Carter. Are you also witnessing what Corey Hogan has witnessed, which is the great, perhaps, remaking of the science of signs?

Carter 3:56

Yeah. So what I've done is I've prepared a PowerPoint.

Carter 3:59

Okay, excellent. So what I've done is... Hopefully it

Zain 4:02

it isn't as bad as your last PowerPoint.

Carter 4:04

PowerPoint. point that you prepared for the show. Hey, hey, none of that. So as you know, we have

Carter 4:10

have differing opinions. Corey is of the sign facing the road. And I am of the 90 degree variety, 90 degrees to the road so that people passing by on a sidewalk or on the roadway. Are you

Zain 4:26

you actually in that variety of lawn sign placement? Yeah.

Carter 4:29

So here's the thing. I'm actually showing you my PowerPoint right now, but it is 90 degrees to you too so you can't see it um whereas if you know if you were driving past you'd be able to see the actual that's

Zain 4:41

that's a very long walk for a very weak joke just so you know okay just go ahead please yeah

Zain 4:46

that was uh in terms of payoff it did not pay off it did not pay off you know what they're not all going

Carter 4:51

going to you you should have been with us on thursday or tuesday all

Carter 4:55

all of our jokes paid off hey cory like we didn't have one miss not one miss the whole episode that's

Corey 5:02

that's what you get when you you pay six bucks you get you

Carter 5:05

the a game this

Carter 5:05

this is this is me just phoning it in by the way yeah phoning it in

Zain 5:09

are we entering a new era as taylor swift would say um on on sign placement on the science of sign placement we are seeing signs all around us in our province is it a new era cory well

Corey 5:21

well here's the thing there

Corey 5:22

there are roads that people walk on and there are roads that people drive on and there are houses that are set back and there are houses that are right up at the property line and it's very contextual so if you're on a thoroughfare where everybody's going 60 kilometers an hour yeah

Corey 5:36

yeah you want to put those signs on the on the perpendicular like steven's talking about but if you're in kind of an older more established inner city neighborhood traffic is going 40 kilometers at most you know you're not actually able to put the sign close to the road because it's set back there's a sidewalk then there's the property line then you got to think about it in those terms and you got to put you got to do with the sign what what the sign wants to do you got to let the universe tell you now what the proper sign placement is

Zain 6:02

is carter cory uh giving a very reasoned answer seems very thoughtful oh why is he dead wrong well

Carter 6:11

well i'll tell you why because even someone who's walking by doesn't

Carter 6:15

doesn't necessarily want to turn their head and look at your house right like all of a sudden now they look like they're looking through your window they want to be able to look and just look forward and be able to see the sign on the 90-degree perpendicular. I will concede that you need to place the sign in the right place, but the right place is never...

Corey 6:33

never... What a concession. What a concession. Oh, that's pretty good. You know what?

Corey 6:36

what? Can I just channel

Carter 6:37

audience for a second? Can I... Corey,

Zain 6:39

Corey, I have to... Before you channel the audience, which, by the way, you've done... I'm just

Carter 6:45

to channel the audience here in a second. Zero

Zain 6:46

Zero service to in the past. You

Carter 6:47

You and the audience are so

Carter 6:51

They're not thinking what you're doing. I'll get back to you in a second. They are thinking exactly what I'm thinking. I'm going to channel the audience. Here's

Zain 6:56

Here's an argument for Carter's sign placement strategy, which, Carter, what would you call that? Would you call that a 90? What would you, is the 90 degrees a perfect, what was the term that

Carter 7:06

that you- It's the 90 degree. It's the 90

Carter 7:08

90 degree rule. The 90 degree.

Carter 7:08

degree. Yeah, 90 degree rule. Corey, why

Zain 7:10

why do you face a sign out front where you can see the other side? Do you need to be reminded who you're voting for on a daily basis if you look out your window? I don't understand that. The argument should be that both sides of traffic, foot or car or whatever other sort of scooter, should be able to see both sides of the side. I'm with Carter on this one. Carter, please go inappropriately and incorrectly channel the audience. Go ahead. Do

Carter 7:33

Do it. Right now, if you're a loyal strategist listener, what you're thinking to yourself is they're surely not going to make 90 minutes or an hour out of sign placement. I

Zain 7:46

a chance if there was one person able to do it it's uh it's

Carter 7:49

it's it's he's back and

Zain 7:51

and he's here and he's very bored talking about federal politics because there's so much shit he can't talk about yeah

Carter 7:58

yeah no this is great this is great the science of science of sign placement no our audience right now is growing by the minute growing

Carter 8:05

growing by can i tell

Zain 8:06

tell you yeah tell us let me just

Corey 8:08

just say this tell

Zain 8:08

tell us tell us what you like are you staring out your window right now looking at a sign telling us no i'm i'm

Corey 8:13

i'm sitting in my basement looking at a tv that has been on for four months because i forgot where the remote is and i don't know how to turn it off physically you should turn it perpendicular so you can yeah exactly no

Corey 8:25

no i 90 of the time perpendicular is going to be what makes sense um also i'll remind you all hey this is gonna blow your mind there are options

Zain 8:36

and 90 degrees like you can disagree absolutely and fundamentally disagree it's a science that's That's why we call it the science of

Carter 8:43

placement. Yeah, this is... Yeah, this is not art.

Zain 8:45

art. This is not a philosophy. Oh,

Zain 8:47

God. This is not a home economics of sign placement. Yeah, keep going. Go ahead. So

Corey 8:51

So those two things, I think, need to be put on there. One

Zain 8:54

One of them is wrong.

Corey 8:57

Okay, let me ask you this. I'm going to give you a thought exercise that shows you that... So campaign managers love perpendicular because they can get that shot, which is also what they want when people are driving by of sign, sign, sign, sign, sign. Yes.

Corey 9:12

But I think we can agree, like, if you're a house at the end of a cul-de-sac, you're probably not going to put a perpendicular. Sure you will. Right?

Corey 9:18

Right? You're going to want to turn around. Sure

Carter 9:18

Sure you will. First of all, those people shouldn't get signs anyways.

Carter 9:22

Come on. Because a cul-de-sac. Come the fuck on.

Carter 9:23

That's the most. End of a cul

Corey 9:23

cul-de-sac. You have taken such an absurd position. Every

Carter 9:27

Every single time. Because you know why? People walk past the cul-de-sac.

Zain 9:33

Nobody loops the cul-de-sac. People loop the cul-de-sac. fucking drive when i was what would you i fuck

Corey 9:43

fuck what did i just i'm good

Zain 9:44

good you know what

Corey 9:45

what when i was in surrey

Corey 9:46

upset with you both right when

Carter 9:47

when i was in surrey we had i was living you know

Carter 9:50

i was living in in a basement suite as you know we we saw lots of shots of it from the uh when we were recording the podcast at the end of the cul-de-sac that i was on there was a not just a sign but a four-foot sign a four-foot sign and i didn't complain about anything except Except the fact that it was placed, you know, facing the end of the street like Corey wants. Like, it was bullshit. This is probably why we lost that fucking election. This is probably why we lost the whole election right there. Okay. And

Zain 10:20

And I like that you stayed in your lane as campaign manager and did not actually change the orientation.

Carter 10:25

I didn't have any tools. There was no way I was going to do it. I like that about you. I like that about

Carter 10:30

you. Let me give you

Corey 10:30

you another scenario where maybe you wouldn't. because i think the audio i'm not even gonna argue with you to your audience

Zain 10:38

on carter how many times do you go into a cul-de-sac you go like i'm gonna go 80 in this cul-de-sac whip around look at some lawn signs and then just come right back out i do this all the fucking time as

Carter 10:47

as as often as i get called a chuckle fuck like this is

Zain 10:53

all right keep going okay give us another thought experiment let me

Corey 10:55

me give you another useless ruthless thought experiment here okay

Corey 10:59

stephen carter in that basement apartment yeah uh that tenement that he was in illegal

Carter 11:04

illegal by the way

Carter 11:04

where would you yeah where

Corey 11:07

sounds like a great campaign great

Corey 11:11

where would you put a sign if you were in an apartment or in a basement suite yeah

Corey 11:17

where would it go you put it in the window right you put it you're not going to put it perpendicular are you i

Carter 11:22

i wouldn't even give i wouldn't even give them the coroplast sign though the coroplast sign has value attached to it cory i mean you probably never had to pay for a real campaign oh

Corey 11:29

oh come off but

Corey 11:30

you've you've not lived in the inner city in a long time

Corey 11:33

those things to their balcony yeah

Carter 11:35

yeah you give them pay well if you're going on the balcony then you can get a coroplast but you

Carter 11:40

you know this is my point this is there's a lot of possible there's

Carter 11:43

there's a lot of rules it is

Corey 11:44

a lot of balconies a lot of balconies have three sides and you could put them perpendicular if you wanted but you don't because the closer it is to the building the more The more it makes sense to put the thing head on.

Corey 11:56

more it makes sense.

Corey 11:57

It's all contextual. You got to look at these things. You got to have your brain on when you're out there doing signs. Don't listen to Steve

Zain 12:04

No, you don't need your brain on because it's a science. It's a science. And science is rule-based, Corey. And all signs go perpendicular. Carter, Corey makes a really good point about the apartment signs. Why is he wrong? Well,

Carter 12:16

Well, because most of the people in apartments are going to complain that their condo board or whatever they're in won't let them put up a sign. and that's just not even true you you get the opportunity to express yourself and if they want to take fines against you take those fuckers to court because uh you know you you get the opportunity to express yourself in election this is uh well here's that's actually the public

Corey 12:36

public service part yeah

Corey 12:38

public you are allowed to put a sign up like a reasonably sized sign as a renter if that is your proper if like you are renting that property you can put a sign up no matter what your landlord no

Carter 12:48

no matter what your landlord says you get the opportunity to put a sign up and And if they try and give you a hard time, call the strategists, 1-800-THE-STRATEGISTS, and Corey and I will

Corey 13:03

Don't give them our real number, because we're not going to answer your call. You know

Carter 13:07

know what? I mean, really, we don't answer the Patreon. We don't answer, like, why would they get the impression? It's

Corey 13:12

It's in the Election Act. Yeah. Somewhere. Somewhere. I'll find you the clause. Yeah. Okay,

Zain 13:18

Okay, here's what we're going to do. Corey, available shortly on thestrategist.ca, perpendicular lawn signs, okay? These will be blank. They're actually going to be blank lawn signs, okay, that you can buy, but they only go perpendicular. So, Corey, we'll make sure that that appears on thestrategist.ca. All proceeds go to the Strategist podcast. Carter, let's move it on to our first segment. Yes, I can only do 13 minutes on lawn signs, not 90. Our first segment, Calgary Center's native son. done he is back carter nice the man the myth the legend he ran in the by-election in calgary center or was it edmonton center who knows but he ran carter and he did not win you know who i'm talking about carter yeah i heard

Carter 14:01

heard it on a

Carter 14:01

you said mark carney i went back and i went back to my podcast library well

Carter 14:06

well and i knew mark carney is our guy here yeah mark is back he's in the political i didn't say mark

Zain 14:11

mark carney i don't know i said do you know who i'm talking about you said as soon You said Mark Carney, but that's fine. I am talking about Mark Carney. Holy shit. Because

Zain 14:22

Wow, you're just saying we're on a different level. On a different level. Perpendicular long sign, guys. That's who we are, Corey. That's right. Corey, Mark Carney is back. He is back in the media. He is back doing interviews. He was on Vashti Capello's last Sunday. You might be asking, why is this important? Why does this matter? Well, we have done one episode in the past. I'm not going to do an entire episode. but there's enough time has lapsed that it is probably worthwhile to get back to our buddy Mark. Our buddy Mark is now going to be attending, Carter, the Liberal Convention, the convention in Ottawa that is happening as we speak, that has kicked off from this Thursday heading into the weekend. He's talking about the fact, listen, I'm going to be there.

Zain 15:04

His name has floated back in media. This is a guy who's been touted by folks like Tom Mulcair and others as the future of the the Liberal Party. Many folks inside still excited about what a Mark Carney candidacy could be. We, you know, have stories, anecdotal and otherwise, of how he was almost going to run for it back in 2014 in the Trudeau era. And his name keeps being floated and floated and floated, Carter. And people like Tom Mulcair and others keep writing about it. And people like Mark Carney himself keep showing up and showing up and showing up. Carter, we got to talk about what he's up to. We got to talk about what he's doing right, what he's doing wrong. He's going on the listening tour at the convention. His name's back in the media. We have to talk about a Mark Carney strategy. Carter, let's start with the fact that this guy, the

Zain 15:54

the fact that I know him a bit, I like him, seems to keep popping up and then not doing anything. Is my read correct that Mark Carney perhaps might be wearing the patience thin on folks that may want his candidacy to go? Or is Is this good strategy? Pop up every now and then, assess if it's the right time, duck back undercover, wait six months, a year, come back. What what is this good strategy? Or is Mark Carney starting to earn a reputation for himself in some way?

Carter 16:22

No, this is good strategy. I mean, he wants to be seen. There's been no campaigns. It's not like he's he's threatened to run for the leadership and then not run since, you know, since Justin Trudeau became the leader, because hasn't been any leaderships. um you know he popped up prior to the last election we thought maybe he was going to run in edmonton center certainly that's what we heard on a podcast and that that gave us was it edmonton center it was edmonton center yeah yeah the the the point of the of him popping back and forth and the point of um you know articles

Carter 16:56

articles being written about him is he hasn't made up his mind yet he is not sure does he want this does he not want this i'll tell you something you can't do it if you don't have your name in the game and he's keeping his name in the game but what was interesting is that he keeps his name in the game without being offensive or an affront to the current office holder you know he talked about how he supported Justin Trudeau he's not you know coming at this from an adversarial sense he's coming in being Mr. Nice Guy I'm going because I think they're doing the right thing you know rather than coming in with guns blazing it's time for a new leader, which we saw, I guess not, I don't think we've ever seen it in the Liberals quite that publicly. But the Liberals do have a little bit of a history of taking out their leaders.

Carter 17:42

The same way I would suggest as the as the old PC party here in Alberta.

Zain 17:49

Corey, good strategy that he keeps popping up.

Zain 17:51

Every six to eight months does one of those sit down on the Sunday shows or a PNP interview, kind of, you know, around perhaps a major moment, into major policy, in this case, a convention this weekend in Ottawa. He says things like, and I'll get into some of his comments, because I think the way he answered a few of them are interesting. But top line, popping in and out, good strategy? Or are you wearing patience thin and just kind of like annoying people that you're not actually moving anything forward after the sort of secret is out, buddy, that you want this job?

Corey 18:23

Yeah, well, if that is what it is, I think the strategy is okay. I don't feel exactly the way Stephen does about it I'll say this it is a classic like if you don't know where you're going you might end up someplace else and if he actually wants to be leader of the Liberal Party and Prime Minister someday I can understand some of the moves he's made but if he's just looking for like the the stroke then some of them make a little bit less sense but the reason why I don't feel exactly the same way Stephen does is is it's not as though since uh Justin Trudeau became Prime Minister there haven't been opportunities for Mark Carney to get more deeply involved in politics in

Zain 18:59

the game in some way he

Corey 19:00

run he could have participated in some way shape or form and that does seem like a obvious precursor that that is just not occurring at this particular moment here but yeah i mean there are so many examples of people who just love being asked to run and when they're not asked for a while show up and make you want to ask them again we've talked talked about it on the pod before bernard lord is a famous

Corey 19:26

one uh pc you know premier of new brunswick um frank mckenna a famous one somebody who uh you know was always like allegedly going to run never ran and you know history is littered with these people the people that you think maybe they could do it but they never actually pull the trigger and a lot of the time yeah

Zain 19:48

yeah go Go ahead, Corey. Keep going. Keep going.

Corey 19:49

Well, a lot of the time they

Corey 19:52

– look, let's put it this way. Nothing will get you kind of adulation like politics. You'll get loathed too, but you'll have like people who treat you like a cult leader.

Corey 20:01

Nothing gets you the adulation like politics.

Corey 20:05

But if you're that kind of guy or gal, a lot of things will get you more money than politics. And so they want to have kind of both ways sometimes. I'm not saying this is what Mark Carney is doing. Oh, sure it is. But there's

Zain 20:16

there's something to your there's something to your point, though, right? Like this is this guy's done really fucking well for himself. Everyone knows that, right? Well credentialed Goldman Sachs, you know, governor of Bank of Canada, England, right? Like all that shit. Now

Zain 20:29

Now running a multi billion dollar sort of investment firm for Brookfield. Like it's it's it is an incredible resume. you may yeah at the same time like there is that balance i'm going to take your point and maybe extend it a bit cory around like this is a guy who's made so much money that carter can you get away with looking at the job of prime minister kind of on the downward slope rather than up at it as an ambition you know what i'm trying to say like is this like for someone like him is that not a political problem that he has that that he's kind of almost

Zain 21:00

almost inherently with his success he may think that

Zain 21:05

that he's looking at prime minister as perhaps a downgrade rather than an upgrade in certain ways. And how does that translate to an electorate with someone with what maybe we can call the Ignatia, for in this case, like specifically the Carney problem? Yeah,

Carter 21:17

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, having more money than God himself or herself will be a bit of an anchor. But on the other hand, it does give you so much freedom, right? And he's got that freedom. And now I do think that serving as an MP, he would have seen as a step down. I do not think that serving as the prime minister is going to be seen as a step down for him. You know, we've talked about the power that you have. Unless he enters a race

Zain 21:42

race in that particular way, though, right? Like, there could be a risk that someone with his background—you don't think so? No, I mean, he's going

Carter 21:48

going to get hammered for being rich, but that's it.

Zain 21:51

No, but don't you think the political risk is that this guy looks at the job of PM kind of like stuff his nose at in some way? Don't you think that's a risk? Maybe you guys both disagree. Because the power

Zain 21:59

power is legit. No, I think it's a risk.

Zain 22:01

Power is huge. No, but you can't necessarily obtain it the same way you obtain your next meritocratic, in

Zain 22:09

in that sense, credential or your next sort of professional success. Corey, jump in on this. Yeah,

Corey 22:14

Yeah, let me say this. I don't think he would even necessarily – you know what? He would see it as a step down. And I think that is a problem. Like, yes. What

Corey 22:22

it is, is it's more

Zain 22:23

more like – I don't think he'd ever say

Corey 22:25

hey, I don't think he'd ever say it, Stephen. But I think that realistically, he would think the problem with politics right now is people like me don't run and people like me don't do these jobs because these jobs are so shitty and so crummy. But I am going to be the savior of the Liberal Party in the country by me, this guy who's done all of these things that are so much better running for prime minister. I think that there is going to be a bit of that energy with it. Frankly, I think that Michael Ignatieff's problem was a lot of that too, right? Like, here I am, this brilliant international academic, and

Corey 22:56

and I'm going to come back and do this job. Because, you know, that's my service. Like, you're welcome, right? Canada, here you go, you're welcome. And that's a bit of a risk for anybody who's got Mark Carney's biography, which is really, really impressive, as we've already said. it

Carter 23:12

mean you're and you're not going to pull up it would be entirely ridiculous for him to pull up in an f-150 right like he's he's not going to be in a position where he can remake so he's going to you know maybe

Carter 23:23

maybe he starts driving himself you know but but he's always going to be dealing with the problem of you know he's made all this money and we used to look to these people to serve right you made all these money we'd like you now to give back that used to be kind of this this old kind of model that that was thought of maybe not maybe it hasn't really been in place uh in like 50 years but this is a model that we used to think about and now we've walked so far away from it i'm not sure it's a viable model but i think that if anybody's going to do it it's going to be mark carnegie

Corey 23:59

yeah i you know what the reality is he is also very rich and one of the reasons and we talked about this god years ago at this point before the election i thought that if he actually wanted to be prime minister he should run because he'll understand if he actually

Corey 24:14

likes the job and if he's any good at it right um we talk about you know committee appearances maybe not taking the right energy all of that because it's just a different role and different expectations and some shithead's going to jump down your throat in a political way and you're going to muse about things in a non-political way and that's going to get you into trouble and so it's very dangerous as well to jump from a job like he's had like

Corey 24:36

like or the job that he has currently into a job like prime minister there's appeal there's people who have done the transition successfully i mean brian mulrooney obviously comes to mind as somebody who was a business leader who jumped in but that

Corey 24:50

that that is often the exception not the rule and it is something that you need you need to do the reps on like you've got to know how to talk to a crowd in a town hall setting and look not totally out of touch like i immediately think of in uh the show 30 rock when when Jack Donaghy is talking about, let's say the grocery concierge told you a five pound bag of potatoes was, I don't know, $200, right? And I worry that Mark Carney would give off some of that energy because he's just so rich and so above it. His life is not like everybody else's life. And that doesn't mean he can't understand everybody else's life, but it means he's got to put in the work to understand everybody else's life. And he's got to expose himself to politics on a more retail level before he decides, I'd be a great prime minister. Carter,

Zain 25:36

Carter, you know, the question I have for anyone running for to become the next liberal leader, assuming Justin Trudeau is not doing it, which is obviously not a given, right? No,

Carter 25:45

No, it's totally not a given.

Carter 25:46

you have folks like champagne,

Zain 25:47

champagne, just like running around the country, energetic, buzzy, you

Zain 25:53

know, people find them to be to be entertaining, witty.

Zain 25:57

You have folks looks like Carney will kind of pop in and out of it. At the end of the day, like, how would you,

Zain 26:03

and what advice would you give as a campaign strategist, Carter, political mind, to someone who says, well, maybe

Zain 26:10

maybe now's not my time if

Zain 26:14

the country is going to just swap governments? Corey, you've said this often, right? People change governments just to change governments. And if this is looking like a change election, do

Zain 26:23

do I even put myself out there? Is the Liberal Party a a poison chalice, or is it just Justin Trudeau that once he's removed, it's still a very effective vehicle? What advice would you give someone with the change might be on the horizon

Zain 26:39

mantra in mind? Whether that's a carny or champagne or whatever, and champagne is just like, fuck it, I'm part of this government, I'm going to own that, and I'm just going to do it, and it's an open secret. But for someone like carny in more particular, someone on the outside looking in, who might have to think about this in a more three-dimensional way, if the question is really what i posed around if

Zain 26:57

if it's a change election buddy do i even even think about it this round or just kind of hold my hold my cards for another half decade well

Carter 27:03

well i mean if you hold your cards for another half decade you turn into into a bernard lord you know the these great candidates that just the situation's never quite

Carter 27:13

uh there is we're never perfect

Zain 27:14

perfect for them to jump yeah

Carter 27:15

yeah i mean and and how many times have we seen a new leader come in and all of a sudden the change election becomes a status quo election i mean you have to believe that you are the recipe that society is looking for to change the entire course of our history. If you want to run to be the prime minister, that has to be the way you're thinking. And if you're not thinking that way, then don't run. But, you

Carter 27:38

you know, I think Mark Carney would be thinking that way. I think that Mark Carney has a sense of self that is probably, well, let's just say that it probably rivals even Corey Hogan's. and you know

Corey 27:54

that's a fairly significant let's not go nuts but yeah i

Carter 27:55

i mean it could happen i mean it's not it's

Carter 27:58

it's not likely but it could happen and if that was the case then you know you gotta run because if you believe that you're better if you believe that you offer a vision that the country needs um then you're then you're not serving your country by not offering that vision

Carter 28:16

and you know what um you could lose and losing in that situation after a change election isn't bad because now you're in a great spot where you know the person who did win and wasn't able to to pivot and have the full change that person's now you know um out

Carter 28:33

out of out of the job and you've got another opportunity to go for it so i say you know take the opportunity always reach for the brass ring this is one of my arguments with michelle rempel i always thought she should have have run, and at the very least, have been a kingmaker, because there's lots of ways to, quote unquote, win a leadership.

Zain 28:54

How does that change, Corey? Make sure, you know, Corey, I'm going to give you a full crack at the answer, but Carter, let me follow up with you. How does that change for someone like Mark Carney, who's always used to winning? Life has just been like a series of Ws for someone like that, at least on paper. Like, how do you stomach a potential public L, if you're someone like him? What advice would you kind of give to someone who may even have that, says that with his inside voice, maybe not with his outside voice?

Carter 29:19

I mean, first of all, it's not like we're sitting here with Justin

Carter 29:23

Justin Trudeau, you know, having suffered many losses aside from his brother in the avalanche. You know, like that, of course, was a tremendous family loss. But, I mean, the guy was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and hasn't taken it out for a few decades here. So why, you know, the people, you know who the people are that run? the people who don't lose. People who lose are sitting in a backbench or they're, you know, talking on some podcast. What do you mean?

Zain 29:53

mean? I don't know if I under I don't understand the point. What do you what do you mean? What

Carter 29:55

What I mean is that in order to run for prime minister, you probably haven't suffered a lot of life setbacks.

Carter 30:01

You're not sitting there going, Oh, man, if only I had if only the the really pretty girl in high school decided to date me, I'd be in a totally different spot and you know the people who run to become prime minister are not serial failures they are people who tend to succeed and failing at this level may be their first failure that's that's how they got there that's how they got the ego that enables them to think i've always said you know like when you choose to run for council what you're doing is you're saying there is a stadium full mcmahon stadium is full of people and i have decided that i'm going to be your leader right

Carter 30:36

right Right. That is not a normal thing. Now, if you're running to be prime minister, it's the entire fucking country.

Carter 30:43

30, you know, 40 million people. And you're going to say, I've got the answers. These people aren't normal. They aren't normal. And they haven't suffered setbacks like you or I. I mean, Corey has neither. But, you know, regular people don't run to be prime minister. And that's actually one of the things I think that makes the case strongest for Mark

Carter 31:09

Carney, because he's not a regular person.

Zain 31:13

I want to go back to this concept of suffering setbacks. But Corey, I want to give you a shot at the same question. You are the, of course, the proponent of the contextual lawn sign strategy. Are you also the proponent of the contextual run when it benefits you, run when you understand the full opportunity strategy?

Corey 31:29

Well, yeah, it's a little of both. And it is actually deeply contextual, right? You have to decide, is this the moment you go for the full brass ring? If I were Mark Carney, I would be thinking maybe I don't run in the next leadership, but I run to be an MP and position myself in the next one. So there's still that forward momentum. momentum. If there is really big momentum around you when you announce you're running, maybe an opportunity presents itself and maybe you take it. But there's a sequencing that both makes sense and is probably advantageous to you. And you do have to play the course, right? You've got to understand what the hell is going to be going on here and what's likely to happen in an election.

Corey 32:07

Doesn't mean he won't run, doesn't mean he won't win if there's an election coming up. But there are a lot of options available to you. And there's a good chance that no matter what you you do pierre poliev is going to wake up as prime minister one day just because that's that's how it often goes but you know on this on this question of like success and failure and whether it

Corey 32:27

whether it's something that you know you cannot know failure or you're unlikely to have to get to this level i kind of disagree with that i just look at some ready examples around us here um our our uh current premier in alberta sure knew an awful lot of failures before she was was our premier yeah

Carter 32:44

yeah look how well that's serving us yeah

Corey 32:47

yeah our potential next premier could be our potential last premier which would also have been a failure when she lost in 2019 it's possible to lose and then win and it's possible to set yourself up for a long game without sitting on the bench uh julius caesar thought he was a failure until he was like until the gallic wars essentially like he thought he just screwed up life it's possible to have a second act that's more impressive than then you're first. Abe Lincoln, of course, is another famous one who failed, failed, failed, and then succeeded. Diefenbaker failed, then succeeded. It happens.

Zain 33:19

happens. These are great examples, Corey, but I guess the Carney example, what's interesting to me is that this one is someone who, at least on paper, not knowing the full sort of context of the bio, is someone who succeeded, succeeded, succeeded, succeeded. And to keep that record pristine,

Zain 33:33

how do you kind of convince someone that you get in the game and an L doesn't end the whole thing? You know, that I think is really interesting to me. So

Corey 33:40

So I feel so strongly that what he actually needs is an L, right? Really? You

Zain 33:46

You think an L would be

Corey 33:47

like a humbling of some sort? No, not even that. It's not like he personally needs it. But we always say politics is about storytelling. And nobody wants the story with like the Mary Sue character who never loses and wins at everything. Like there's got to be an arc to Mark Carney. And it's actually fairly compelling to me to be like, yeah. And so I went into this thing. and I thought I knew what politics was and I fell on my fucking face and I looked like a bit of a fool. But you know what? I entered it for the right reasons. So I dusted myself off. I got back up. I decided then I was going to go and I was going to run as an MP and do this thing right and I was going to move forward. And now I'm ready here on my second go to make this happen. Or whatever, if you fail, right? But I think that failure could be a powerful part of his story.

Zain 34:29

That's interesting. Carter, do you think that would add a bit of, lack of a better term, texture Or a bit of narrative that currently seems perhaps lacking in a sense of connectivity, especially how you phrase it, right? This is someone who may not necessarily live like us or kind of go through life like us in some way. Yeah,

Carter 34:49

Yeah, I mean, I think that Corey's painted a very interesting picture. I don't think that he needs to fall down in order to carry that picture. I mean, I remember Jim Prentice's campaign for leader of the PCs in, what is that, 2004, somewhere around there. Federally, yeah. Yeah, we had a picture of him and he lost, which was not, you

Carter 35:14

you know, he was not accustomed to losing. But we had a picture of him when he was a coal miner as a young man. You know, that was on his campaign stuff just to show people that, you know, while he had made something of himself, while he had succeeded, I think, beyond most people's wildest dreams, you know, he still had that those roots. And I think you could see that even with Carney because Carney still got things to pull from. I mean, he comes from Edmonton. That's got to hurt, you know, so he's shots

Corey 35:46

shots fired at like our biggest market. That's nice. Well,

Carter 35:50

Well, they understand. They need less

Zain 35:52

less of them. Yeah,

Zain 35:53

need less Edmonton, more

Carter 35:54

more Calgary, less Edmonton. Corey, you're currently our most Edmonton guy. So, yeah,

Zain 36:00

Soon available in the strategist.ca shop. Mark Carney perpendicular lawn signs. They're going to be handwritten on Sharpie, which is just going to write about Sharpie. And then you could just you can insert what year and what he runs for liberal leader. So it actually becomes very convenient for you to perpendicularly put in your cul-de-sac home. home. Corey, I have

Zain 36:19

have to ask you this. A couple of questions about how he answered I think are interesting. So I want to almost get into messaging strategy, because Vashti Capello gave him some softballs, and

Zain 36:33

and I felt like he didn't hit them out of the park as well as he could. And I'm putting my thumb on the scale here, but I'm curious from your perspective. So one of the questions for him at the end of the interview was whether he thinks Trudeau should lead the liberals against Polyev in the next election. He said, I support the prime minister. When pushed again, he said, I support the prime minister. Corey, as a political messaging strategist, as a communication strategist, when asked that question, as someone who openly,

Zain 37:03

open secret, especially in the Ottawa bubble, that you want that job one day, what would a better answer have been for Mark Carney?

Zain 37:11

So the question being,

Zain 37:14

do you think Justin Trudeau

Corey 37:18

the liberals in the next election.

Corey 37:20

I think it's going

Corey 37:21

to take all of us to stop Pierre Polyev in the next election. We are all going to need to work to stop this. And that means staying united as a team. I'm enthusiastic to do that. And that's exactly why I'm going to this liberal convention. And that's why, you know, we are going to, you know, stand together against this guy. And of course, we have to stand together, Vashi. Yeah,

Zain 37:41

follow up question. But should Justin Trudeau be the leader of the party? Should

Zain 37:47

Should be the individual toe

Zain 37:50

toe-to-toe against Pierre Polyev? You got the team question, but Mark?

Corey 37:55

know, and the media loves to play it this way, like it's one person versus one person, but it's not. The difference between the liberals and the conservatives is the liberals are a team, which is what draws it to me. And Justin Trudeau is the leader of that team. Justin Trudeau brought the party from third place party back into government in 2015. He's a man of immense political talents, and it's going to take all of us to

Corey 38:17

to beat Pierre Poliev in the next election. Carter

Zain 38:19

Carter Vashe Kapalos asks Mark Carney, do you support the Prime Minister Justin Trudeau leading the Liberals against Pierre Polyev next election? What do you say? I

Carter 38:28

I say yes, absolutely. And actions speak louder than words. I'm going to the Liberal Convention with this particular leader in charge because he has already indicated. He's already said it publicly. I don't have to say anything. He said it publicly that he's going to be leading the Liberal Party into the next election to defeat Pierre Polyev. That's the basis under which I'm actually going to the convention. intervention so my actions are telling you what the outcome is already i'm expecting justin trudeau to lead us into the next election and i'll be there standing right by his side carter

Zain 39:02

carter so go ahead and let's dissect this actually you know what before we actually dissect it i've got i've got a follow up go ahead cory yeah

Corey 39:08

yeah so i actually your answer is the safer one for sure and

Corey 39:11

and it's the answer that you absolutely must give if you're in the cabinet or the caucus but mark is in neither and so mark has a little bit more latitude to get get a little fucky with it yeah but

Carter 39:20

but i don't want to just kind play some

Carter 39:22

I don't want him in that space. If I'm running that campaign, I want him to be straight and narrow, and to be proving that he's a team player.

Zain 39:30

This is interesting. Let me let me pose you another answer he gave to the first time on this question, right? Because I just read you that I support the Prime Minister sort of mainline from it. But here's what else he had to say. I think the government's on the right track. You know, we're the best country in the world, we can always improve, the party can always improve, the world is changing. And so I'm intending to provide support to the government and to the Prime Minister. The question was really about same same question do

Zain 39:51

do you support justin trudeau against pierre pauliev in the next election um how cory would you have advised him hindsight is always 2020 this is an unfair exercise but we don't have to be we're not i mean i didn't

Corey 40:04

didn't i didn't watch the interview so we're

Zain 40:06

we're coming out there

Zain 40:07

there you go no okay so i get it you're better than marconi doing this whole fucking yeah okay i get it uh cory hogan lawn signs will be available straightforward one side only because that's all that matters that's the only real estate cory wants to use on his lawn side um Um, Corey,

Zain 40:20

what would you have, what would you have said? Because there was a contrast piece here. Pierre Polyev was brought into the question, like, do you go after Polyev? And the most specific question is, how do you have the range of motion that a Mark Carney could or should to tackle that question where you can say, you know, here's the things I care about? Like, would you have talked about, here's the three or four things I care about, and that's why I support the government. Here's what they've done, things that are aligned potentially to your leadership ambitions. ambitions. You know, would you have gone more fucky like you had been like more snipey? What would you have kind of done with that with that template, perhaps building off what Mark said, and iterating on it, or perhaps throwing it all out?

Corey 40:58

No, I think I listen, at its core, it's a good answer. It's to say Canada is a great place. This government's a great government. Can Canada improve? Sure. Can this government improve? Sure. Improvement is always possible. And I think that pursuit of improvement is what makes the Liberal Party special. When you think about the Conservative Party, it's always about tearing things down, going backwards, getting defensive. But I'm excited to be part of a team that's interested in a big, open, optimistic Canada. One that, by the way, leads international rankings across the board. So you ask me, am I there for the Prime Minister? Am I there against Pierre Poiliev? Yes and yes. Because at its core, I'm a Canadian who wants Canada to continue to do great things on the world stage carter

Zain 41:41

your your thoughts on that carny answer and then we'll move on from the segment i

Carter 41:44

i think it was a a week a weaker answer than i would have than i would have wanted and and i'll tell you why um i think that he has he's

Carter 41:52

he's going to be accused of being the next paul martin if it starts to feel like like he's taking down this uh this government and and no one wants that i mean because if you do get elected i mean the the liberals might be as united today as they have been in in generation um because they have they don't have the heir apparent waiting in the wings or two heir parents waiting in the wings but they do have people who are capable waiting in the wings and that's that's what you want so what i'd like to see is full-throated enthusiasm for this leader under the expectation and the expectation that i have personally is that justin trudeau will not make it to the next election so if that is If my theory is correct, then what do you lose by giving him that full-throated support? And if he doesn't, and

Carter 42:47

and if he does, then you're already in a great spot because you've already said that you supported him from the beginning. So, win

Zain 42:53

Isn't the risk harder that you, by endorsing the prime minister, that that clip is saved? That you kind of own all his baggage for the last decade? that you really, you know, you kind of, you get rid of him, but you still look like a supporter of the guy? Or is that just too overblown a political fear in that regard? Because that nervousness, that anxiety always exists. Like, right, one of the reasons he probably has taken this rather than full-throated approach, this is not a guy who can't communicate, right? But he's taken this measured approach, probably for that clippability in the future, or probably for some sort of like, well, I don't want to tie myself too much to the prime minister, given all his his baggage, and given the fact that this could be a change election, etc., etc., you can get in your head that way, or you could call that strategy. But Carter, your response to that? Yeah,

Carter 43:37

Yeah, I mean, no, because, you know, everything

Carter 43:41

everything you say can be clipped and used against you in a court of public opinion. But I don't think that that's the way you need to approach these things. I think the way that you need to approach these things is, what is my long-term goal? My long-term goal is to become the prime minister. What are the obstacles that I have that are standing in my way? oh there currently is a prime minister that's

Carter 44:01

that's a problem am i going to change that am i going to do a paul martin and take this guy out no i am not okay how do i need to behave if i am not going to take him out i need to be incredibly respectful i need to make sure that he is he feels supported i need to make sure that he feels good when he makes the decision to leave because when he makes the decision to leave i don't want him shitting down my throat because he could be leaving popular And if he's leaving popular, I don't want to be the dick that forced him out. I still might win the leadership, even if I'm a dick, but I may not win the election. So being the prime minister is my goal, then I support this prime minister.

Zain 44:42

Corey, before I get to you, Corey, Carter, would it be fair to say, am I putting words in your mouth by saying people

Zain 44:49

people might overthink this sort of stuff? I think, like, I find this really fascinating. Like, this happens so often, and we see it so nakedly. I think Mark Carney's a great example of it. They measure their words. They think about the long-term ramifications of what this could mean down the road. They think about, well, is this a change in life, so I don't want want to be tied to like all the stuff i did calculus i just presented to you that you just railroaded over is it fair to say too often you find politicians or leaders or folks that have ambitions overthinking it yeah

Carter 45:20

it's a simple question do you want to be prime minister yes or no yes

Carter 45:23

yes okay when would you like to be prime minister the next time or the time after next time okay let's develop the strategy let's

Carter 45:30

let's develop the strategy and the strategy like for example i I could be working on a strategy right this second, right this second on how to make you Zane, the next prime minister or premier of Alberta. I can be working on it right now. And the questions I would ask you are, when do you want to be the, the, the premier of Alberta? Well,

Carter 45:46

Well, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to go after Rachel, Rachel, you know, Rachel and I are very similar, blah, blah, blah. I don't want to upset her. Okay, great. Here's how we're going to come up with the strategy. We're going to position you in municipal politics. Once we're done in municipal politics, we're going to position you right now. If, If Mark Carney wants to be the prime minister and show that he's supporting Justin Trudeau, you know what he should do? He should announce at this liberal convention that he's running in Edmonton Center to be the next member of parliament.

Zain 46:17

Corey, finish us off here. Mark Carney, of course, is going to be running in Edmonton Center. I heard it on a podcast. I once thought it was Calgary Center, but I have since realized that Calgary and Edmonton are not the same. Yeah,

Carter 46:27

Yeah, I'm glad I was able to— I'm

Zain 46:29

I'm a real asset to the NDP campaign, by the way, just so you know. Corey, I heard on a podcast he's running, so that's a foregone conclusion laid on me. This question of overthinking, is that what's going on in how you see folks assessing the political terrain, or maybe conflating strategy for what it's not and just overanalyzing certain things? Yeah,

Corey 46:51

Yeah, I think it's always dangerous when you see a candidate and a prospective candidate's wheels turning. And I think ultimately what you've described to me is something that is clear. The wheels were turning. He was choosing his answer very judiciously. And that's a dangerous place to be, right? Because that calculation is actually what's going to get you in trouble with the prime minister and his team or the people who don't like the prime minister. And really, you should be thinking about these things more in terms of baseline expectations. And yeah, like, don't sweat.

Corey 47:24

What a lame campaign it would be if in three years they clip him saying on a television show, yeah, I support the current prime minister. What

Corey 47:32

fuck's that going to do? Right? That is the expected answer. And so when you think about baseline expectations, act within them, right? And so, hey, there's a leader of this party. You're going to this party's convention. Do you support this person? You can say, yeah. That's not a concern. If you're trying to avoid saying, yeah, you're Mark Carney, you actually have more latitude, as I talked about. But to Stephen's point, just be strategic about it. And if Mark Carney is sitting there with his advisors and saying, yeah, I'm not going to actively take out Justin Trudeau, but I want to signal there's an option. I want to signal I'm available. And I don't mind giving him a little bit of a nudge. Then you act one way. And if you're saying, I'm just going to wait my turn. And when he's gone, it's my turn. You act a different way. but you don't sit there and try to have your cake and eat it too by supporting not supporting because you're just going to piss off everybody doing that don't let them see the wheels turn act either

Zain 48:24

either with intention or

Corey 48:24

or act uh you know with reflex but don't try to do both like that's that's a very dangerous place to be that's

Zain 48:31

that's really good advice and by the way if mark carney is looking for a failure and if he's listening uh we were happy to take some of that uh investment money at the strategist podcast we can be any sort of slush fund we'll spend it very wisely uh we're We're happy to be part of the tale. We'll order several hundred lawn signs. Hey,

Corey 48:47

Hey, can I tell you something? I thought that went through my head. Yeah, lay it on me. Lawn signs used to be one-sided, by and large. You know why? Because lawn sign placement used to be a bit different, or we'd make the little triangle.

Zain 48:58

then we developed the canon. The science was then developed of two-sign lawn printing, and then the entire school of thought was born in a... Always perpendicular, yeah. Okay, but let's

Zain 49:10

that down. It was born in a lowly varsity

Zain 49:12

varsity cul-de-sac is where the science was born.

Carter 49:16

Because printing used to be the expensive part.

Carter 49:19

And now it is the coroplast that's the expensive part. So things change, Corey. Keep up with the times, my friend. Well,

Corey 49:27

Well, hold on. Corey's back in

Corey 49:28

the wooden stakes. Are you telling me? We're in the H-frame world.

Corey 49:32

I miss wooden stakes. They were fun.

Corey 49:33

Oh, they were great

Corey 49:34

times. Yeah, they were. The

Carter 49:34

The cuts on your hands. The

Corey 49:35

The problem with H-frames in the winter is like, well, that's true of everything in the winter. but boy it can be really tough to get those things out of the ground even more so than in both

Corey 49:45

like you're just leaving like metal shards on lawns yeah

Carter 49:49

good story good story cory that's really good yeah good story

Zain 49:53

uh metal shards on lawns uh brought to you by flare airlines uh carter let's uh move it on to that was that was dark why did it need to get so dark why yeah that was very why i don't understand jesus no also

Corey 50:04

also i was asleep at the switch they're not not brought to you you

Carter 50:08

you know what you've gotten very used to annalise she has never mentioned our sponsor not once she's not our sponsor

Zain 50:14

sponsor but yeah she's just doesn't doesn't really have the relationship with the sponsor that i do i mean this is why you got to keep me on i'm begging for my job here guys uh let's move on to our next segment our next segment of course carter fox in the hen house can we talk about the crtc because the crtc

Carter 50:28

crtc good hang on just let me pull up my notes

Zain 50:32

well carter yeah the crtc is launching a public consultation on whether to ban fox news from Canadian Airways after a complaint over incendiary comments made about LGBTQ plus people by Tucker Carlson, now the fired Fox host on a March 28th broadcast, so not too long ago, the comments relating to, you know, individual transgender people in that sense. Carter, are

Zain 51:00

are you in support of the CRTC public consultation to potentially ban an entire network? Is that an overreach? Is this the right scope and scale? We've seen the history of Fox News. I don't want to go into it. We've seen the most recent settlement that they had to pay about the big lie sort of thing. But Carter, is the scope here an overreach or is this the right scope to be investigating

Zain 51:22

banning Fox News in Canada? I

Carter 51:24

I would have started off with saying we don't ban speech. This is one of the core principles of being Canadian, We don't ban speech unless it's hate speech. Hate speech has a carve-out in Canadian society. We do ban hate speech. And it turns out that that's what Fox News does. So they are the largest purveyor of hate speech in the Western world, I would argue. And as such, I'm not sure they belong on our public airwaves. So I like the fact that they're doing a hearing. I like the fact that it's going through a hearing process. That feels to me to be about the right the right way to do this thing, not just to, you know, to have Justin Trudeau's liberals, you know, ban us. But this is this is a big question for me. And it's something that, you

Carter 52:17

you know, I'm very off of where I started a few years ago, thinking that we could control negative outlets and negative speech. And I just I just don't think that we can control it anymore.

Corey 52:33

i don't i don't i don't like banning a i don't look forward to you know my father-in-law asking how a vpn gets set up so he can get around the fucking ban and everybody else's parents too i i would much prefer that our system and our structure change to allow more severe fines and penalties for this you know so financial penalties and and then people can make the decisions they make. And if a cable carrier wants to carry Fox News, and they're fine with putting up with financial penalties, whenever hate speech is aired, then that's one thing. And, you know, let's just make it hurt in different ways that do not entirely shut down the voice. That would be my preference.

Zain 53:14

Carter, do you see a future here where this could happen? And what would you be saying if if you were one of the progressive political parties, you know, this is going to clearly be something that energizes the right. This is going to clearly be something that energizes those folks. How do political parties, especially those, this is less of a strategy question, more of like a philosophy question around where, how you think free speech and the left currently co-mingle? Because the history here over the last decade has been fascinating. This is very simplistic, but it used to be the left that was defenders of free speech, especially in certain sort of academic context, and now we've kind of seen the right kind of grab the free speech mantle. How do political parties on the left, like the liberals or the NDP, deal with this? Or is it as simple as just kind of saying, this is hate speech, this is like misinformation, disinformation, this is isolated to Fox News? How do they avoid getting into a broader conversation on freedom of speech, perhaps where their viewpoints might not necessarily be aligned or perhaps perhaps too out of touch in in this particular case yeah

Carter 54:16

yeah i mean i think that the way to to do it is to talk literally about free speech um the the thing that's lean into it the thing lean into yeah the thing that's fascinating about what's happening in the united states is you've got this group uh that purports to be the freedom you know the freedom fighters right the the uh the fox news is the uh the the republicans the right and they are the freedom fighters right they are fighting for our freedoms and the way that they are fighting for our freedoms is by banning books and you know attacking these freedoms attacking them the media you know they're big believers in freedom of speech except for the mainstream media those fuckers got to go you know my again

Carter 55:01

again I'm really struggling with this because you know there was a time I wanted you know I liked Cory's answer i'm not going to pick on cory that was a good answer he his answer about uh financial penalties that's a solid answer i am i

Carter 55:17

feel like i've got an existential threat around me all the time about the freedom uh the future of our society and it really colors how i want to respond to these things i am way more fucking worried about this than i want to be than i think I think maybe I even should be. But, you know,

Zain 55:35

know, but why? Why? Like, what's because the

Carter 55:37

the United States is on the verge of a civil war. And it strikes me that the way you get to fascism is exactly the way that you're getting the steps that Ron DeSantis is taking in Florida, you know, could come from Herbert Goring's books. books you know this is uh

Carter 55:59

goring was it goring did i get that right whoever

Carter 56:01

whoever it was i

Corey 56:02

i mean he was one of them you know about you're thinking of gobles thank

Carter 56:05

thank you gobles is the one who was the propagandist and he was the one who who

Carter 56:10

who put together the that kind of how-to guide of of propaganda and the how-to guide is what's being done in the united states right now so for us to to say for us as the the left wing you know and i'm now proudly including myself in it because the right wingers weird as hell lost their fucking minds um which also now includes ken bosenkuhl by the way so uh the left is has has grossly expanded its territory uh of late but the uh for those who don't know ken he's all he's one of the authors of the firewall letter who's now campaigning against Danielle Smith at any rate because of this existential threat that I'm feeling about the creeping scope of fascism my answers have changed and the worst part about it is when you start changing your answers that's not good either because the only way to really keep fascism out is to not do anything fascist which means don't curtail freedom of speech

Zain 57:13

Corey, is there a simple through line to Carter's point? Progressive parties just say this is anti-democratic, we're not going to let this bear the costs because the stakes are too high? Or is there a lot to lose politically here? And I'm making a huge assumption of what the Polyev conservatives might do with this story. And we can talk about that in a second. But I'm making a huge assumption that they will go

Zain 57:33

go hard against even this consultation. But your thought here is there a political win in calling out anti-democratic behavior labeling this as such and suffering the consequences you

Corey 57:49

know i ultimately just think it's like a futile effort so i i kind of begin there like you're not gonna ban fox news in any meaningful way the the people who are problematic about what's on fox news will still be able to get fox news they'll but But

Zain 58:02

But is a symbol of it useful,

Corey 58:04

you think? Fuck symbols. Like, that is nonsense politics. Like, the idea that you would say, we care so much about free speech, we're going to make an example out of somebody and we don't actually think it will have an effect. We just want to show that we're opposed to their speech. Like that, I'm troubled by that. I am. I would actually rather have more meaningful actions. And I think there

Corey 58:24

there are ways that you can penalize people without being so bloody heavy handed. And, you know, like, here's the thing. It gets deep into your philosophical views of democracy and government. And you talked about free speech being the rallying cry of the left.

Zain 58:40

Had been, yeah. Yeah, that

Zain 58:42

true in the 60s and 70s for sure.

Corey 58:43

Literally, it was called the free speech movement. And it had people on campuses saying you've got to allow civil rights movements and you've got to allow conversations about what it means to be American today and the turmoil and the racial strife and, you know, the social injustice and we should be able to protest and we should be able to get loud and be angry and have speakers that make you uncomfortable. uncomfortable and the general argument was democracy's messy and you need to get these viewpoints out there and you need to fight like hell um because you know peace and quiet's fine but you

Corey 59:13

you find peace and quiet in a cemetery and this is a living democracy and you need a certain amount of that rub point now of course there are lines and as canadians i think we're better at we're better with the gray and saying let's not be nuts about it like let's get ourselves to the edge of reason and no further you know classically in the constitution the charter of rights is says like you have these basically these inalienable rights doesn't say inalienable yeah uh up to reasonable limits is literally the language it says you know that's that's such a canadian answer and there is a point that is past the line is

Corey 59:49

is it where fox news is yeah

Corey 59:52

yeah you could for sure make that case but there are a lot of ways you can penalize an organization without giving

Corey 59:57

giving such a a clear rally and cry to other people that the government is censoring so which is what i feel this would come down as i've

Carter 1:00:03

i've just been watching highlights of fox news uh

Carter 1:00:06

uh specifically tucker carlson's program and he talks about the white replacement theory uh theory right he's

Carter 1:00:14

yeah but it's not just insanity i mean sure he's insane i agree we all agree that tucker carlson's insane

Corey 1:00:21

but it's also racist even fox news now yeah yeah

Carter 1:00:23

yeah it's also racist right and so we allow um on our because we control we as society control what goes on to our cable we don't have any controls on the internet and you're right we can't we can't bar them from being on the internet but we could bar them from being on our cable and that's

Carter 1:00:44

that's something that we control and i think that if you do control that then isn't it in society's interest to say someone who is promoting um racist Racist hate speech should not be allowed, should not be availed access to our communal asset. And our communal asset in this case is the cable waves.

Corey 1:01:08

fair position. I'm not disputing the logic of, hey, we created the CRTC and we created these rules for a reason. My personal preference is for more of like an incentive and penalty-based model that allows you to ratchet things up incrementally. and it means that ultimately if a tough action like we don't want fox news on cable has to be taken that action is being taken by rogers and not by the government of canada like i think that's just an easier position uh for a lot of reasons and also it really pulls it back to the issue right so what you're going to have is they say they're banning fox news because of x but they're really banning fox news because of y that will be the conversation but it's

Corey 1:01:46

it's really tough to do that when you have very specific penalties for very specific violations of rules, right? They say they're penalizing Tucker Carlson for his comments on transgender people, and the fine was for his comments on transgendered people. Like, that's actually much easier, I think, for a government to kind of take a strong position on and say, yeah, and Fox News, if you don't want to become a financial burden to your partners, knock that shit off. I mean, I just personally believe more in an incentive model and a penalty model than I do government making these decisions that have such blanket ramifications because they are going to be interpreted so wildly. In

Carter 1:02:26

In fairness, it's not the government making these decisions. The CRTC is an arm's length. Yeah, I knew you were going to say that. Yeah, arm's

Zain 1:02:32

arm's length. Good luck with that argument. Good luck, yeah. Carter, let's end here. And I'm going to ask you to do the uncomfortable because that's what we do on the show. And you've refused this in the past when something's been beyond the pale for you. But what should the polytheist conservatives do here to have maximum political effect?

Carter 1:02:48

Which of the Pelliev conservatives do here? To

Zain 1:02:51

To have maximum political effect. To

Carter 1:02:53

To have maximum political effect, I think that it would be fascinating for them to take Corey's argument and say, this is a market problem, not a speech problem. If the speech is against our rules, then here is the way that we do it. Janet Jackson showed a nipple. The fine was so large, i haven't seen nipples in 15 years uh poor guy you know like if that's if that's the way we want to deal with it and and let's be clear cory's point that has been managed super well with a whole bunch of things the words you're not allowed to say on television have been maintained we have had no problems with with you know now we see effing on tv and stuff like that which is hilarious hilarious but um you

Carter 1:03:39

you know because we you know the financial fines are there they have changed behavior so let's if

Carter 1:03:45

if you want to if you if i'm polyev and i want to win this discussion then the way i should win it is that the the proper way to deal with this is through a market and the market is going to we have very simple rules those rules are going to be fines that are imposed by the CRTC, and we don't stand with hate speech, but we do stand with freedom of speech within limits. Financial penalties are the way to deal with those limits.

Zain 1:04:14

Corey, maximum political effect, poly-F conservatives, what are you doing?

Corey 1:04:17

Well, I do think you need to pass the reasonable person test. You can't look like you're caping for Fox News. Or for

Zain 1:04:22

for the comments made here, that's right. Or

Corey 1:04:24

Or for the comments made. So a variant of of what steven said which was a variant of what i said is probably the thing to say like you had so many tools in your toolbox short

Corey 1:04:33

short of taking them off the airwaves this is such an extreme reaction and let's be frank it's an extreme reaction because they were looking for an excuse to take fox news off the airwaves because fox news makes this government uncomfortable it calls this government out on its hypocrisies it calls this government out on its failures and that's the real reason fox news is being taken off the airwaves and how do i know that because if they actually wanted to deal with the problem they would have dealt with the problem instead of just burying all of fox's coverage that makes them deeply uncomfortable and hiding it away from canadians carter

Zain 1:05:05

carter i'm going to move it on to our final segment over under our lightning ground carter we do this for you thank god

Carter 1:05:10

do it for you you know unpleasant if we're doing this well you're gonna love if we're doing this for me can i just open it up with a quick question of

Carter 1:05:18

of course you can card

Carter 1:05:19

card the the freemantle freemantle hawthorne game game

Carter 1:05:23

um yeah hawthorne or freemantle i'm struggling with this a little bit definitely

Zain 1:05:27

definitely freemantle cory trick question neither of those are real teams uh

Carter 1:05:31

uh both of them are real teams and freemantle i i like the answer thank you very much yeah

Zain 1:05:35

yeah i think i think that's freemantle is definitely definitely in carter stephen carter uh hillary rodham clinton is showing up to the liberal convention are you in or are you out for hillary clinton showing up as a speaker speaker at the Ottawa Liberal Convention happening this weekend?

Carter 1:05:50

I'm in. In fact, I made the case that we should go to the Liberal Convention this weekend. You did, actually, yeah. We would have had special episodes. It would have been spectacular. But Corey reminded me that you two have lives and you can't just pick up and be somewhere. So I said, well, what about Annalise? Also turns out she has a life. So, you

Carter 1:06:12

you know, I like it. I think that having speakers and and i think hillary rodham clinton is a is a fantastic speaker in

Zain 1:06:21

in or out on clinton hillary uh at the uh liberal convention cory i

Corey 1:06:26

think i'm out uh i'm a veteran of many liberal conventions i think often the speakers that i like the least are the the americans that come in and they

Zain 1:06:35

they do that a lot so much so much i think we saw the axelrod one at some oh yeah yeah yeah you

Corey 1:06:41

you and i both that's right we were at that liberal convention together and i just i can't

Corey 1:06:46

i can't i can't you know

Corey 1:06:47

know it's just too much why

Zain 1:06:49

why why why tell me more is it because you feel

Zain 1:06:51

feel like they're boring the democrat lessons too much is it like fandom like tell me tell me why you're out so

Corey 1:06:57

so the fandom is a big part of it the way that all you need to do is have like a connection to a u.s campaign and and people are willing to throw out all reason and all playbooks in order to follow it but the other part is there are canadian stories and where i think the liberals where i think political parties in general actually with the exception of the ndp do a poor job in canada is identifying the up-and-comers at other levels of government and elevating them onto the national stage and giving them the speaking points and giving them the shine and for sure there are i'm not pretending that there aren't speakers like that but there are i think more opportunities to build a bit of a feeder system there the other thing i would say is i'm not opposed to speakers coming from other countries. Let's be real. This is a country of 40 million people in a world of 8 billion. There's a lot we can learn from people elsewhere, and there's a lot of good ideas that can trigger other good ideas here in this country.

Corey 1:07:48

But, you know, stretch your brain a little bit more than just picking like one of the most prominent Democrats who ran for president. You know, there's super interesting people you could find, not

Corey 1:07:58

not just in the United States, not just in the United Kingdom, which is basically the only other place they ever go. But hey, how about, you know let's talk to some people in france and give them a little bit more profile why don't we talk to some people in africa in asia and i know that the answer is because they're also trying to create a media event that gets the public's attention and hillary clinton will do that

Corey 1:08:19

but i just think that media event doesn't matter and what does matter is you've got all of your faithful all of your organizers in one room and you could expose them to really interesting things that will still excite them and will cost you a tenth of what hillary clinton's probably cost that

Carter 1:08:33

that answer just angered me to no end you

Carter 1:08:35

you don't know why good we why because we could have been there we would have been the fucking celebrity right here right people would have been coming up taking we would have had a lineup for photos would have would have been longer than fucking trudeau's and we're not there because you guys have families i

Zain 1:08:51

would have i would have i would have been the one starting to lock him up steven

Carter 1:08:54

steven carter did today this is cory went to the fucking dump today that's what that's what kept us

Zain 1:08:59

from going we call it the landfill but it was he was throwing out all the forward-facing lawn sides. He couldn't figure out how

Zain 1:09:07

how to change their orientation. It

Zain 1:09:09

It was just really

Zain 1:09:10

He's struggling. Hey, Carter, are you in or out in CRA holding back tax refunds from people, it says, received pandemic benefits by mistake? They said earlier that we would be very flexible for the repayment schedule, but are you in or out on their strategy after a couple of years of what I'd call collective CRA generosity to now hold back your tax refund if you receive pandemic benefits and haven't paid them back? Give me your thoughts on this. I

Carter 1:09:33

I mean, I'm not super stoked on it. I think that there were a lot of people who got pandemic benefits that, you

Carter 1:09:39

you know, got them and then found out they weren't eligible that don't have the money. But on the other hand, you know, it wasn't like these these benefit

Carter 1:09:49

were super hard to get, right? Like, they were easy to get easy to meet the criteria. And if If you didn't meet the criteria, then you probably shouldn't be keeping the money. So I guess I can wrap my head around it, and I think that enough time has passed.

Zain 1:10:04

Corey, in or out on CRA holding back tax refunds for

Zain 1:10:08

for people who received the pandemic benefits? I'm

Corey 1:10:10

I'm in on people needing to pay it back if they got it improperly. I do think there needs to be kind of like a, you know, some sympathy and some understanding, and there should be pretty broad latitude to wave things down, reduce payments, all of that to deal with individual circumstances. But I'm out on this kind of blanket approach. I understand that when you've paid your taxes and you've overpaid, the idea is you get the money back you've overpaid and in this situation, you actually owe the government money. So it kind of makes sense on its surface that the government would keep the money. But the reality is the way we all treat tax returns and the way we move through our lives is very different and because we have various uh expenses such as child care that that naturally lend to these like big ongoing tax returns and these tend to come at a time of year when you're paying your cpp and ei even if you're making like a hundred thousand dollars a year and whatnot like that money is very useful and it's planned into people's budgets and i just think that rather than taking this this approach i

Corey 1:11:15

i truly truly believe if there were errors along these lines every one of these should be bespoke payment plans and the government should just kind of carve it out and not worry about it until you have a payment plan like if you're dodging the cra talk to me in a year about that but if you are just if you can work out with the cra okay over the next three years i will pay you x number of dollars a month or whatever then i think that's a much more humane way to deal with this particular challenge

Zain 1:11:39

cory final question i'm going to start with you on this the strike is over psac and the government government this we talked extensively about this on strategy there was no advertising it didn't ramp up there it settled it settled just above if i'm not mistaken i don't have the number in front of me just above the nine percent mark that you were mentioning it was like 11 11 ish yeah uh percentage points you said there would be no clear winners cory let me ask you for a reassessment here was there a clear winner when the dust settled last week absolutely

Corey 1:12:06

absolutely not no i you know what because at the end of the day they

Corey 1:12:11

still missed at work and that's going to be expensive and it's tough to make that back over like the two percent that you find like we talked about this you miss a week you miss two percent of your paycheck you get an additional two percent like like the math it's so hard to make the money back on these particular things and the ill will that's there and the animosity and frankly the weakening of the union and its position here uh with many members not all members but many members will feel it's a bit weakened that's a natural consequence consequence of a strike but on the way out you want to get get more now i mean i guess good on them for coming to terms everybody there i'm glad but uh yeah i just i there's clearly there's no clear-cut winner in my view so i guess there's no winner carter

Zain 1:12:56

carter you seem to disagree lay it on us carter final answer of the pod government

Carter 1:13:03

the government won the government came out all looking like heroes like look at this they got it done oh my god they got it done no one thought it could get done they got it done the government won the

Carter 1:13:13

the government won because this thing could have dragged on for quite some time it could have been really messy and did they win even

Zain 1:13:19

even if this may have set a precedent for future negotiations was

Carter 1:13:23

was this like a

Zain 1:13:23

a lead table kind of problem

Corey 1:13:24

problem i mean but

Carter 1:13:25

but that's not you never have to worry about that because apparently you think think that uh pierre paul this is pierre pauliev's problem so don't worry about it don't

Carter 1:13:34

don't worry about it well that's

Corey 1:13:35

not you're that's not true there's a lot of collective agreements it'll be mark carney's problem

Carter 1:13:39

problem yeah i mean you know what he took the

Zain 1:13:40

the advice on the pod this

Carter 1:13:41

this is yeah i mean this is this is though the nature of government and that is to survive the day in this government not

Carter 1:13:47

not only survive the day i think that they were thriving so good

Zain 1:13:51

good for the government

Zain 1:13:51

slogan survive the day that

Carter 1:13:53

that is believe me that is the unofficial slogan in the premier's office at

Carter 1:13:58

at least this premier we

Zain 1:14:00

we're gonna leave it there that's a wrap on episode 1058 of the strategist my name is zane velgey with me as always stephen carter cory hogan and we will see you next time

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