Transcript
Annalise
0:02
Welcome to The Strategist, episode 1056. I'm your host, Annalise Klingbeil. With you, as always, Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan.
Carter
0:12
You a little tired? It's election eve. You a little tired today or something?
Annalise
0:14
I got a lot of sun. I got a lot of sun this weekend. Didn't bring the energy. That wasn't peppy enough? No,
Carter
0:18
No, you've brought the energy a couple times.
Corey
0:22
keeping you on your toes. This is not an energetic moment. This is a moment to conserve energy. There's an election coming. You've got to hydrate.
Carter
0:29
I'm in a down mood.
Corey
0:31
Why? You two are fucking awesome.
Corey
0:33
I got sent to
Carter
0:34
to the store today. I got sent to the store today to buy dirt. That's when I got sent to the store. We have a garden full
Carter
0:42
full of dirt, but that dirt wasn't good enough, so I had to go and buy dirt.
Corey
0:45
dirt. It's different dirt. You got to get different dirt. You
Carter
0:48
You know how many types of dirt there are in bags?
Corey
0:50
Yeah, like a dozen. I
Carter
0:52
I had to take photographs
Carter
0:52
and send it back to Heather to get approval on the type of dirt I was buying.
Corey
0:57
buy the right dirt? So you don't know dirt. Dirt. We could actually say you don't know dirt. I
Carter
1:00
I don't know dirt. I thought the dirt was dirt, and apparently, totally wrong. Okay. Anyways, I got a tomato-y thingy. I don't know. I seem confused.
Annalise
1:07
Are you doing vegetables this year, Carter?
Carter
1:11
Yeah, yeah, we are. We did vegetables last year. The only thing that worked was lettuce, which fed the neighborhood rabbits. So things
Carter
1:20
things are really coming around for
Carter
1:23
Zucchini. We also did zucchini. Got a lot of zucchini.
Carter
1:26
Perfect. Zucchini cake, grilled zucchini.
Annalise
1:29
Zucchini and lettuce. That
Annalise
1:32
like you guys are great gardeners.
Carter
1:34
Well, I'm telling you, we could probably survive all winter on this year's crop. So pretty
Carter
1:39
pretty excited. Also only went six for nine. You sound pretty
Carter
1:43
Only went six for nine in my AFL pool. Oh,
Annalise
1:47
Oh, that's the real reason. It was
Annalise
1:50
Okay. Did you have a good week? Nine for nine week,
Carter
1:52
week, but it didn't happen.
Corey
1:54
Yeah. Yeah, I'm just, you know, I'm glad we're getting all of this out of the way, you know, shaking this off before the episode. We've
Annalise
2:00
We've got a lot to talk about. We don't need to keep talking about Stephen Carter's garden. How was
Carter
2:04
Corey? Did you do some home renovations or anything? I
Corey
2:07
I did. Yes, I did. You know, and I was wandering around my neighborhood, my neighborhood known to locals as Che, which is short for Crescent Heights East. No
Annalise
2:20
By we, you mean you and your wife?
Corey
2:23
No, I mean. No
Corey
2:24
called me that. Don't drag Laurie into this. The good people of Che. The good people of Che. Don't
Carter
2:29
drag Laurie into this.
Corey
2:29
this. And I can't help but note as I walk around the neighborhood that we all call Che that there's an awful lot of orange signs today. There's like a lot of orange signs. Yeah.
Corey
2:39
It's almost as though the election is here. And certainly when I went to my parents' house, there was a bit of a counterpoint. There were a few blue signs kicking around that neighborhood. But yeah, it's on. Feels like it's on, gang. Feels
Corey
2:52
like it's here. Yeah,
Annalise
2:53
Yeah, tomorrow. I mean, when people listen, most people, except our super devoted nerdy pals, will listen on Monday. It'll be Rit Drop Day.
Carter
3:04
that's exciting. Now I'm feeling more excited. I feel a little bit bad
Carter
3:08
bad that I didn't bring better energy at the beginning of this podcast. Okay.
Annalise
3:13
Jesus. Let's jump into it then. Let's jump into our first segment, which is called Dropping the Rit. You keep that energy, Carter, and we'll get into this. So Monday is the big day. The writ will be dropped in Alberta. It's going to be an interesting 28 days. I've got a lot to kind of quiz you about here, but let's just start with, you've both been there. What is the eve of, what are we calling it, like the eve of writ drop day? What is that like in a campaign? campaign
Carter
3:46
incredibly anticlimactic you've been working for two to three months on the campaign structure all that's changed is that you're hoping that another 10 or 15 percent of the population wakes up and goes oh there's going to be an election uh because for for you and your network you've been doing the election forever right you've been pounding uh doors you've been getting data you've been doing strategy um data has been flowing in like from the from the pollsters you're You're trying to break down where you are, where you need to be, all your policy elements. All that's been happening for two to three months, sometimes longer. And then when the writ drops, it's like, okay,
Carter
4:25
okay, now it's official. We get to go. But it's not like anything really fundamentally changes. It's just hopefully a few more people will wake up tomorrow and go, oh, yeah, that's really all you're open
Annalise
4:36
Do you agree with that assessment?
Corey
4:39
Yeah. Yeah. The Rit Day Eve, Rit Day kind of is like New Year's Eve, New Year's. It never lives up to the hype. It's never this big moment you think it is for all of the reasons Stephen said. And in fact, even before we had these quasi-fixed election periods, we all generally knew by the weekend before the Rit dropped that the Rit was being dropped because things just happen, right? And in the olden days, you would look at campaign offices being leased and the government signs But the reality is, the weekend before the dropping of the writ, because the dropping of the writ is usually on a Monday or Tuesday, not always, and certainly other jurisdictions have gotten into different conventions. The election started on Saturday, in my opinion. This weekend, the election began, and that's why you're seeing signs. I saw all sorts of canvassing teams kicking around the various neighborhoods I saw. and uh yeah in a way it's just like it's the formality now it's the paperwork but this election has begun and um i think you can expect very little to be different about tomorrow than there is today except now everybody takes their place at the theater right um they're going to be on the stage they're going to be hitting their marks the media has a very kind of formal way of covering these things and at least you can probably talk more about this uh but i mean i can certainly tell you from observation on the campaign all of a sudden you know the premier becomes the party leader uh the the way it tends to occur is somebody is assigned to to follow one campaign somebody to the other campaign in the olden days maybe another person in the
Annalise
6:12
the olden days yeah enough reporters to do that you're dating yourself well
Corey
6:19
well but even back then like once you started getting into the third fourth fifth parties it was like one person sort of fielded all of it yeah or you You know, it was like a couple of stringers and, um, and there's a rhythm to it. Like every day you can sort of expect, okay, there's going to be campaign events in the morning and then there's going to be another campaign event in the afternoon, but it's not really a media focused one because we're all trying to get in the media by the evening news and blah, blah, blah. And, and the, the rhythm of the campaign takes, takes over in a big way now, but
Corey
6:46
but that's, I think it's that rhythm is the only thing that is fundamentally different for me, uh, Steven.
Carter
6:53
Yeah. I think because you're pushing an event all the time, right? Right. Like you are literally, you know, doing something all the time. And that does change. But I would argue, especially given this period where everybody knows what the date is going to be, that Rachel Notley and Danielle Smith have been doing events pretty much nonstop. Right. This is, you know, we saw major policy announcements in the last couple of weeks. Nothing really changed. It just it just
Annalise
7:22
So is is the one big thing that changes the spending limits?
Corey
7:29
for sure i mean that's a real practical technical thing that you now need to consider um if you're the ndp if you're the ucp the other big one is government you know the apparatus that is government is no longer available to you and i saw a alberta government news release go out saturday yesterday i'm not sure if i saw one today but they they really ran it to the line and they did whatever they could with the power of the office my god deerfoot trail in calgary is covered in signs talking about all of the renovations that are going to happen on Deerfoot Trail in Calgary. So that, I mean, that's a big material thing. But, you know, campaign cadence is a real thing. And maybe they've been in it for a while. I suspect they've been in modified versions. But every morning, probably at 7am or so, there'll be a call of all of the campaign managers with the central team or whatever the rhythm is that they set, saying these are the issues of the day, these are the things we're going to be doing. And that whole apparatus, apparatus. I mean, it, it just, it just moves, uh, once the Ritz dropped. And I think to me, that is kind of the, that's
Corey
8:26
that's the big thing. Is
Annalise
8:27
Is there a sense of relief though? I mean, obviously as you say, nothing like
Annalise
8:31
like majors changed, but is it like, okay, it's really go time. There's only 28 days left or you're just already so tired that that doesn't matter. Like your New Year's, your New Year's comparison is so interesting to me because I
Annalise
8:43
I think a lot of people can relate to that like new year's is a shitty holiday yeah
Corey
8:48
your writ day is a shitty day you
Corey
8:52
know insofar as there is something interesting about writ days it's that the campaign machinery springs to life the caucus machinery and the government machinery spins down and so you're going to have for example because you always do like all of a sudden news
Corey
9:07
news releases have to go out through different email systems and some of them will be caught in spam filters happens like every bloody election right Right. And some of these things just take a bit of a shakedown period. The cobwebs have to come off. People try to latch on to them as evidence of failures across the board. Like, oh, this didn't work for them. Oh, it's a bumbling campaign. And so that's very kind
Corey
9:25
of frustrating as a campaign manager who's just sort of trying to deal with the here and the now and the fact that a lot of this stuff comes off the shelf. But once every four years. But, you know, I think in terms of, I
Corey
9:37
I don't know. I mean, it's it's a funny one for me. I feel no relief. I guess that's where I'll say I felt nothing but anxiety through every campaign that I ever worked on. It's not like, oh, God, I've only got 28 days. That's awesome. It's like, oh, God, I've only got 28 days. That's awful, right? I wish I had more time. Why didn't I use more time? Carter,
Carter
10:01
Well, I mean, the analogy we would use was the trains left the station, right? So there's no more time any longer to debate, right? To go back and forth and say, well, I think we should do this or I think we should do that. What you talked about is going to happen now, right? Like, so you can still debate a few of the tactics. I mean, we talked about schedules being pretty much, you know, you're not going to do the events that you put on the board and the way in the order that you put them on the board um but your your campaign theme is your campaign theme now i mean you're you're
Carter
10:35
you're not able to just pull everything back it's not like you can change the colors on the signs right like this is yeah
Carter
10:41
this is it we're gonna go it's left the station and you don't get you know i would often tell the candidates you don't get the opportunity now to to pull back or reconsider this is this is the way that the you know that you've called the the shot. And now we're going. So if it's the right direction, great, that's going to be fantastic. If it's the wrong direction, we're all going to suffer for 28 days. But there's not a lot that we can do to change that suffering.
Corey
11:07
I really want to underline that. And you know, I don't think it's a moment, it's not a light switch moment. It's not like that's only true as of RIT Day. But
Corey
11:13
But we are indisputably in a time now where it is what it is. And it's about about execution and implementation. And yeah, there are opportunities to be creative at moments and you can win a debate and you can change the course of things. But your campaign is your campaign. Your policy is your policy. It is what it is. And it would be, I don't get the sense either campaign would find themselves in that place. But when you start changing your tactics, you know what you call that? A flailing campaign. You are much better off to kind of run a suboptimal strategy, then switch strategy nine times out of 10. And so you're strapped in. Stephen's metaphor is well taken because it is what it is at this point. And we just don't know what it is. We just don't get to find out for 28 days. You
Annalise
12:00
You guys both have good metaphors in our first 12 minutes, New Year's, trains. On that candidate thing, Carter, does it change a little bit for them? I mean, obviously you two have been like in
Annalise
12:11
in those senior campaign roles, but a lot of candidates dates have had full-time jobs and families and kids and they're doing their campaigning on the side and they were maybe told like hey it's a few hours and like it's a it's a whole nother job so in in terms of for them taking you know that month of leave from work and being able to focus on this full-time is there is that common is that normal is that a big change like that they can be dedicated to this well
Carter
12:37
well yeah it'll be a big change for some but i mean i think the if you were in a a really competitive riding and you were only taking a one month leave um that's not great right like that that tells me that you're not really taking this seriously um if you're in a not competitive riding why would you take a month leave you know like this is you're only going to get elected as an accidental election right so why bother um i i would have you know you
Carter
13:03
want every candidate to not be working but realistically there's been tons of times we've had uh candidates Candidates who continue to do their work and they campaign in the evenings and we don't give a shit because they're going to lose and they're there to be the cannon fodder that we want. And I'll tell you something, if you're a candidate out there listening to the dulcet
Carter
13:25
dulcet tones of my voice and they haven't asked you to take the month off, you're cannon fodder. So, you know, that's okay. you know like if you're if you're in a competitive riding you should have been talking to
Annalise
13:41
to them carter but
Annalise
13:44
can i push back i don't know about months
Annalise
13:46
months yeah can i push back at least a month ago
Annalise
13:50
least a month ago how
Annalise
13:51
how is that when
Annalise
13:52
when you want when parties want this diversity of clients and they want like not clients a diversity of candidates and they want like you
Annalise
14:00
you know um young people or they want moms or they want people early in their career or whatever how do you take like a few months off of your full-time job no
Carter
14:08
no no no no that's not what candidates want that's
Carter
14:10
that's not what campaigns want that's not what political parties want political parties want uh diversity to check check a box we want candidates that will win we don't want candidates that will lose and they happen to be diverse you want candidates that are diverse that that diversity brings you strength and that diversity gives you the opportunity to win this is this isn't um you
Carter
14:31
you know uh you know know taking picture day right where you're trying to get everybody to look in a certain way the fact that you have a diverse set of candidates should be because these are community leaders who have the opportunity to take time off we're not asking people to to come in and become a candidate who can't take the time off who can't become like who can't do the work of being a candidate and i get i i don't understand this diversity for diversity sake argument there are tons of very very capable people in the diverse marketplace that should be able to come in and take the time off if it's required.
Annalise
15:06
How much time, like you said, months and months, but realistically, how much time off if you're in a competitive race?
Carter
15:13
At least two months.
Corey
15:14
Yeah. Listen, I think, Stephen, you're thinking about diversity in a very
Corey
15:19
1980s, 1990s sense, but there's also economic diversity. There's diversity of livelihoods and lifestyles. I don't really want economic diversity.
Carter
15:26
I want people who can afford to to take two months off to win.
Corey
15:30
Okay, well, you know what, the NDP are going to gather some candidates who that's just not the case. And that's because they're running because that's not the case, right? Because they want to have a fairer, more equitable society. And I don't think that two months is realistic for a lot of people in this day and age. I certainly think you've got to think about how you feather yourself into a campaign, start using, you know, any flex time you have grab the holidays you have you got to be out there on the doors every night you know use the time you have to maximum efficiency will smith in pursuit of happiness style you know the phone doesn't even hang up and you just keep moving on but i think a month is actually would i take two months instead yeah a hundred percent i would of course i would but i think there are things you can do with one month off and i don't think that should be the barrier or the guideline that says It says, serious candidate only if two months, not serious candidate if.
Carter
16:24
if. No, they can be serious and lose. I mean, there's lots of serious people who lose. Yeah,
Carter
16:30
I don't have any problem with people who lose that are serious.
Carter
16:34
I just, you know, would like to win. And if I'm going to win, then you have to have dedicated the time appropriate to actually winning. You know, you talk about trying, you know, people trying to get a job, right? It's hard to get a job. It's hard to get a job when you already have a job. It will require additional effort and additional work. You have to be able to put in the additional effort and work that is appropriate to winning this type of job. And to win this type of job, to win this type of seat, you will get a huge lift from your party leader. But they say they being, you know, people like us, experts like us, Corey, will say that if you want to have the best chance of winning, you have to lift yourself about 5% higher than the leader will actually take you. and i think that that's the case in this particular election um you need that if you're the ndp in about 10 calgary ridings you need to have the the people who can lift you up okay
Annalise
17:27
okay let's talk about signs guys um because we we could we could stay on this you don't want to you don't want to continue
Carter
17:33
continue to just keep me dancing around diversity uh
Annalise
17:37
no we we you know what we've got 28 days we can keep you talking about this i i do want to talk about some gender stuff um but i want to talk about science first i was out biking uh
Annalise
17:49
uh today in northwest calgary you can maybe tell i got a little sun it's hot in calgary there was a lot of orange signs out um already i saw rachel notley tweeted they have a record breaking 50 000 signs out across the province by monday night talk to me about the sign war talk to me about how important it is if 50 000 is a lot how many of of those we think are in Calgary. Carter, why don't you start this one off?
Carter
18:14
Well, I've been told that 20,000 of those 50,000 are in Calgary.
Carter
18:18
That's a lot. That's more than double, I think, than what we had for the Gondek campaign. So that is a significant number of signs. And to have them, you know, obviously, Corey and I are probably going to go out tonight and start driving around and counting all of them. Because you
Annalise
18:35
are so cool. Because
Carter
18:37
Because that's what what we do every election but uh if they've got 20,000 signs out and it doesn't really matter what this is is a flood strategy so there's a couple of different ways that you can do uh sign strategies one is a flood strategy one is a growth strategy in a perfect world you've got a flood strategy and a growth strategy that happen to work together because the flood strategy begets the growth strategy right so um you know if cory and i are running uh in one area and and i put up 1500 signs in my little area and cory's only put up a couple hundred then people think well carter's so much more popular than cory obviously
Corey
19:14
obviously creates that social pressure right social now
Carter
19:16
now they they say well i'd like to be part of that i'm gonna i'm gonna put up a sign for for carter too because he's obviously the you know better looking smarter strategist and uh that's
Carter
19:28
that's how you know you start to actually show momentum and i think that that's really key with this particular campaign Because again, you're looking for permission to vote for the NDP, right?
Carter
19:37
And that permission needs to be granted, not from the higher ups, not from the big brains in media or whatever in those situations, but from your peers, your neighbors, the people who are close to you. So this 20,000 sign strategy in Calgary feels like it will beget more signs, lead it to a growth. If you don't see more sign growth, then that wouldn't be great. But I think, and what I used, and I've used this same technique a number of times, flood, then growth, growth almost always comes after flood. blood. And
Annalise
20:09
And just to clarify, these are, I was talking about signs on private property. Corey, do you want to talk a little bit about, I guess, kind of same sort of strategy when it comes to the public property sign war?
Corey
20:21
Yeah, well, first off, that's a Calgary thing. Like, you can't put signs on public property in Edmonton. And I think ultimately, the signs on public property are of much less value. We're pretty aware that a field is not voting for somebody. It could show no organizational strength perhaps if there just seem to be everywhere but it is of much less value because it doesn't create that social pressure and that and that social permission that steven was talking about that comes with having lawn signs where all of a sudden it's like you see one that your neighbor has it's like oh i had no idea bob was was a ucp supporter maybe i'll get a ucp sign too or you know i had no idea that julia and her family were supporting ndp this time around They usually have a UCP sign up. Hmm, that gives me pause. That makes me think about things. And maybe I'm going to change the way that I react as a result. And certainly it is not new for campaigns to say the writ's coming. We're going to go absolutely nuts on the weekend before and get out as many signs as possible. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But to Stephen's point, the strategy that starts really big like this and then can often lead to other people asking for signs because they do see the people around them and it gives them permission to do it too. But, you know, there's a lot of considerations with signs here and it's not always clear that there's a great correlation between signs and outcomes. I think signs on private property have pretty strong correlation, but signs on public have almost none, is my understanding. And certainly I can think of at least one campaign in Northwest Edmonton where one candidate won the sign war massively,
Corey
21:59
massively, but they lost.
Corey
22:01
They didn't actually get it.
Annalise
22:02
Does the signs to like this early on speak to those candidates that have been door knocking a lot and have been making those connections? Like, do you want to kind of square that, Corey?
Corey
22:13
Yeah, it does. It for sure does. And obviously, the more work you do ahead of time, the more likely you're going to have those sign locations. There's other things too. Parties are getting a lot more comfortable just saying, oh, they're a party member, we're going to put a sign up, you know, and not necessarily ask for permission because they become well aware that most party members, maybe they won't ask for the sign, but they won't ask you to get rid of it once you put it up and they'll probably keep it up. So it can also speak to the overall strength of the organization of the political party as well and how many members there are out there. And in spirit of like that flood and that sense of momentum, parties are also often pretty savvy at this particular moment with how they target their walks, as we say, going out. So it's pretty common to really walk the main thoroughfares that have a lot of private houses on them because that means you can get all of those sign locations. You go back maybe even multiple times because the way that cities are built, particularly the suburbs, is it's small streets that kind of meander leading on to bigger streets that meander towards the biggest streets that connect as arteries, right? right? And so you find the ones that everybody has routed onto and you really focus your walks on there and you can get more signs, maybe not more votes, but if you kind of target the signs in that sense, you can create a sense that you're really a big deal.
Annalise
23:35
Where does Edmonton fit into the sign strategy? Like if you're, okay, so NDP said 50,000 signs, Carter, you said 20,000 of those are in Calgary.
Annalise
23:45
I'm assuming the other 29,500 are in Edmonton. Like, is it even worth putting
Annalise
23:54
putting signs in Edmonton?
Corey
23:57
You know, so I lived in Edmonton last election, and I've lived in Edmonton half my adult life. I've kind of split my time between the two cities.
Corey
24:05
I mean, it was an absolute mortal lock for the NDP. It was a very interesting thing, because if you were just in Edmonton, you would have thought that the UCP were going to get bloody crushed in the election, right? And so you can create, it's a very physical representation of the bubbles we sometimes find ourselves in. And yeah, I don't know how much value signage has in say Edmonton Gold Bar, which is going to go like what, 70% NDP. But you know, it's something something parties do. And that, that sense of momentum often can lead to fundraising and additional money that can then go to other writings and whatnot. But yeah, is, is it a great use of time? I mean, no, if, if volunteers and their time was totally portable, but the reality is people volunteer in their writings, they volunteer in their community. And so what else are they going to do? And, uh, it does afford an opportunity to show the strength of the organization. But
Carter
25:01
But let's, you know, they're, they're, the other thing I'd be doing is I'd be be telling these volunteers this is what you're going to do this weekend and we're going to get signs up throughout Edmonton we're going to win Edmonton and then you're going to the donut you're not going to stick around here and you're riding anymore because all our signs are out and
Carter
25:16
and now we need you to go door knock and find more signs and in St. Albert we need you out in Strathcona we need you out in uh you
Carter
25:24
you know Sherwood Park I need you know you need to be out doing those places and keep in mind that if if we're talking about this level of signs if this level of signs is real i mean this is some somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 to 1,500 volunteers all focused on putting up signs today and that's actually a really good show i mean that's a great thing to be able to do is to put out um you know a thousand volunteers doing one thing on one day you know i'm sure that there was still door knocking posses i think cory you mentioned that to me that you saw some some door knockers out as well i mean if you're able to do to put put up 50,000 signs through the province and do door knocking, then you're just flexing your organizational muscle. So and then I'd add one more thing to Edmonton signs. And that is that a lot of the donut travels through Edmonton. I'd be targeting as much as humanly possible, those major thoroughfares that bring people in from Sherwood Park into downtown Edmonton. You know, yes, they may be in a different community, but they do need to see that there's still a tremendous amount of support for the uh for the ndp and then and it does appear and i don't know for sure but it feels like the ndp have caught the ucp napping a little bit um the organizational structure uh even you know it it feels like uh and again we don't have a completely uh you know a complete view of everything but it feels like there was some napping done by the ucp this week which means that they'll be installing their signs over the next little while and it'll take some time for them is
Annalise
27:02
is it too is it too early to say that like it's red drop eve i'm
Corey
27:06
i'm no i mean i a we don't yeah i mean they could there'll be people putting up signs even now as we go because it's an activity that can continue like until the dead of night and certainly there's been many many examples of times campaigns have done that but the other thing i'd say is you
Corey
27:21
you know i know where both of you live and we all live in like mortal that
Carter
27:26
that was threatening by the way that was really threatening i
Carter
27:30
feel threatened annalise do you feel threatened i
Annalise
27:32
i i feel quite threatened right yeah i know that's fair
Annalise
27:36
especially that laugh that he did right after yeah it was the laugh yeah okay
Corey
27:42
okay yeah okay i'm gonna think about the time but
Corey
27:46
i did go down it was uh it was my dad's birthday yeah yesterday and we were we took the grandkids down and we were all celebrating happy birthday dad if you're listening um but you know it was not a mortal ndp sign lock in his neighborhood the neighborhood i grew up in which is a swing riding by the way i grew up in what is calgary glenmore and i saw as many ucp signs as ndp signs down there which makes sense right like you're thinking that's about a 50 50 riding why the heck not and so like let's not kid ourselves we're are seeing personally up front one half of this battle but probably if this podcast was three people who lived in calgary laheed and you know calgary i don't know fish creek we might have an entirely different read on this situation today we'd be like oh my god ucp won the sign war today that's for sure but
Corey
28:35
but you know we got to be a little bit realistic and a little bit grounded in where we are here yeah
Carter
28:39
yeah but let you know can you can you throw annalise and i just a little bit of a bone and assume that we do actually venture out of our homes occasionally.
Corey
28:46
Big question for you. Did you today?
Annalise
28:49
When I was biking, I went through two other ridings.
Carter
28:53
Yeah, I was out in a number of different ridings today. We went to Nose Hill. Was that number
Carter
28:59
I also went up into Calgary West and spoke to some dedicated UCP voters. Hi, Dad. Hi, Ryan. My brother and father.
Corey
29:10
father. and they're calgary west is a use they're
Carter
29:13
they're looking at actually not voting for the ucb they're wondering how viable the ndp is in calgary west because people are shifting and that you know focus groups not really that you know my focus group of one kind of thing isn't particularly scientific but i didn't see the domination that i would have expected in the on the west side i didn't see it in the north side and i and uh cory i'll defer to you on the south side because Because I see no reason to go down there, ever. Like, it's just a weird place. I'm not going. But
Annalise
29:46
But for those people, and I guess in Calgary specifically, who are undecided,
Annalise
29:52
waking up Monday and driving to work and seeing Orange, you two are both saying that's a good thing for the NDP. Yes.
Corey
30:01
Yeah, it is. is and i think that there
Corey
30:04
there is a reality that in 2015 the ndp won and in 2019 the ndp lost and it is the same leader and it is fundamentally the same party in the eyes of most calgarians and they are looking for that reason to vote like it there is a group of people i should say who are saying well am i allowed to vote ndp because i did before and you know then we all decided not to and is it is it a thing that's like on the table here and um a
Corey
30:30
number of people i know who who are more conservative, walking around feeling like, oh, yeah, no, like nobody's voting NDP, right? And I imagine that if all of a sudden the signs are two to one orange tomorrow, they're going to be feeling a little bit different about that. That's going to change the way they feel. That's going to change the way some of the people on the bubble feel. And that's going to be motivating for the NDP, demoralizing for the UCP hardcores, and going to provide permission to a group in the middle who are like, well, I'm not really sure I'm allowed to. Like, what would my my neighbors say if i had to sign up and if their neighbors have those signs up too i guess we know what their neighbors would say carter
Carter
31:06
carter there's also there there's one negative
Carter
31:09
and i don't want to i don't want to dwell on the negative because i think that you know you you you run the campaign to show your momentum i know
Corey
31:16
know what you're gonna say and you
Corey
31:17
you gotta it's an overstated what's he gonna
Annalise
31:19
gonna say cory what's he gonna say i'm
Corey
31:22
i'm gonna say oh for sure he's gonna say that it like puts them on alert and it motivates the other guys and there's
Carter
31:27
there's a group of voters specifically in the ucp that are reluctant ucp voters we've talked about them and david paletto has has done a very good job kind of articulating how they feel and those reluctant ucp voters if they see that it looks like it's going to be an ndp victory they may decide to come out and stop rachel notley that is something that if i'm if i'm in the uh but i'm not pulling back i have to go forward that's that's you know if it happens it happens but you still have to try and win the win the election outright that's
Annalise
32:05
that's a good little segue into another thing i want to talk about which is polling i'm sure we'll see new fresh polling this week is it the same kind of thinking there carter of what you're saying where you want to be not too far ahead because of those reluctant voters
Carter
32:20
voters yeah again you know you you want to be in a spot where you are competitive i think at this stage i I don't think you want to be winning by miles, and I don't think you want to be losing by miles. And there's a couple of reasons for that. The media have a tendency. I mean, I know that it's very hip for the right to say that we have a left-wing media and for the left to say we have a right-wing media, or I don't know, everybody's all over the place. Here's the truth. we have a media that reflects fairness and that reflects their ultimate end game which is competitiveness um they are for they root the media root for the story that's who they root for and that's why the nenshi come from behind victory you know who how did he do it that that that's a narrative that's a story they root for the story that's what they cared about they didn't care care about nenshi they weren't supporting nenshi they wanted a great story and and so this is part of the process that's now unfolding is that the media could very well you know if the ndp start walking away with it or the ucp they start rooting for a story and they suddenly find more negatives they work harder to find those negatives they they dig them up it's not because of a bias i think that people think that it's because of bias. The bias is only towards finding the story.
Annalise
33:47
Corey, going into a campaign, strategy-wise, if polling comes out this week, would you rather be four points up or four points down?
Corey
33:58
Four points up if I'm the NDP, for sure, because I do think that you've got to break down. Four points up for anybody. Four points down is fine. It's a bit of a cliche to say, like run like you're two votes behind or something like that but the reality is the
Corey
34:16
the ndp need to win by more than four points and so i think that they can make that story pretty clear and they can beat the complacency down by saying yeah but we've got to win seats right like votes are one thing seats are another thing and for them almost four points up is is the even race in my opinion four points down for the ndp would be i mean i don't even think that's unrealistic I suspect there will probably be some polls like that, because I suspect we'll see multiple polls in the next bit here. But I think that four points down for the NDP is maybe worse in real terms than four points down for the UCP, just because of the way that this seems to be breaking down. And so, yeah,
Corey
34:57
yeah, I mean, I don't fear if I'm the NDP being up by four points because I need more than that. And I think my supporters know I need more than that or like they need to mobilize to that effect or get the votes in the right place, I should say. Okay.
Annalise
35:10
Okay. What about rallies? We saw a few. Carter, you can take this one. I know you'd like this topic, but we saw a few this weekend. We saw Smith, I believe, was in Calgary and Edmonton. Notley was in both Calgary and Edmonton.
Annalise
35:26
Talk to me about rallies and from that kind of campaign strategy point of view, how important are they? uh
Carter
35:34
uh terribly not important um they they give you a nice picture and every once in a while you need a nice picture and arguably this is a great time to do a nice picture um if everybody is coming back after a wonderful day of door knocking and dropping off signs i'm happy to have a rally feed them and you know kind of give them encouragement they can meet the leader and those types of things but they have to be coming back from doing something that's actually valuable uh we did the rallies that we would do uh for the gondek campaign we would almost always try to tie them to something else because just going and doing a rally first of all it takes a tremendous amount of resources to do a rally um you got volunteer organizational resources you've got volunteer uh you know resources making sure that there's food and drinks and um people greeting everybody buddy and making sure oh my god it just goes on and on and on all these resources that are being spent on something that doesn't get you votes every single person at a rally every single person is already voting for you so there's there's limited upside
Carter
36:41
upside except for i want the picture and i'm happy to give a reward to my to my people those are the only two reasons to do a rally and And it looks to me like both the UCP and the NDP, and I would say the NDP more successfully, were
Carter
36:59
were able to get something out of their volunteers before they fed them and watered them.
Annalise
37:06
Corey, do you have any strong opinions on rallies?
Corey
37:11
I think that a lot of organizers are pretty cynical about rallies for exactly the reason Stephen said. They're already there for you. They take so much effort. They take so much time off the doors. And ultimately, it's usually just in service of a pretty picture. And there's a lot of ways to get pretty pictures that don't require hundreds of people not doing things that win elections. But we talked about how in Edmonton, what's the point of the sign war? And we talked about the fact that in Edmonton, sometimes you've just got volunteers who need to do stuff. So, you know, Rachel Notley's rally, the one we're talking about here, was in Edmonton Gold Bar. That writing that I was flippantly saying they're going to win with 70% of the vote.
Corey
37:53
What else are you going to do in Edmonton Gold Bar? You know, you might as well drag volunteers out and have a good show and use that to show momentum across the organization. And yeah, if you can get the volunteers out there doing things too, all the better. But, you know, you don't want to have a rally in an area where you desperately need people on the doors. Right. And they didn't in the case of the NDP. What's confusing to me is that Danielle Smith also had a rally in Edmonton and she kind of did need them on the doors. Right. And instead she had a rally. And then there was this funny moment and it's an annoying moment and it's so exhausting for both sides. I just, I'm, I'm both sides in this one big time where people are like, oh, looks like our rally went a little bit nicer than your rally. And it's like, oh, looks like you looked at a bad picture of our rally because this picture of the rally shows everyone at the rally. And also they're all smiling. Oh, they're smiling because that looks like a grimace from that person back there. God, they're all so bored. And look, look how white that crowd is compared to our very diverse crowd. oh well that's just again that's that was the event that was just right here but if you turn the anyways and it always happens and it's so dumb nobody gives a shit the media just want their pretty picture most of the public doesn't really parse the rally pictures that deeply and everybody just needs to stop fighting online about whose rally looks better oh
Annalise
39:10
oh yeah it's funny because in in journalism school one of the first things i remember being taught was like never listen to organizers when they tell you how many people are there like
Annalise
39:19
always count yourself or of cops are there ask the cops but
Corey
39:23
but don't cops are trained don't
Annalise
39:24
don't don't ask don't ask the organizers because you're never going to get an accurate number um okay anything else any last closing words on writ drop eve before we move into our next topic
Carter
39:37
we have more topics than just yeah
Annalise
39:38
yeah we've got one more topic no we've got one more topic and then you
Annalise
39:43
you don't have any closing last words you want to like impart to all those people that are listening to you right now carter
Carter
39:50
does okay cory does good ritrop
Corey
39:54
ritrop eve is new year's eve it's not going to change your life it's a moment for us to reflect i guess and it's a moment for us to kick into our writ term resolutions let's continue this metaphor let's see how bad we can get it but you know this is not this is not the moment on which everything hinges this is the moment where all of the operations Migrations, you can't say that it's anything but on at this point, but it's not going to change anybody's world dramatically. This election's already begun. It's not a binary. It's kind of a, you know, it's like being pregnant. It's having a kid. When does viability hit, right? It just happened at some point. We don't know when, and here we are. And now it's indisputable. You
Annalise
40:35
You had a good metaphor, and now you're just adding more. Yeah,
Annalise
40:38
It was nice because it was like full circle, too,
Annalise
40:43
Carter. I can still
Carter
40:44
still drop by your house and give you a big kiss on election eve right like that's still okay right yeah
Corey
40:52
yeah of course okay I'll
Corey
40:53
I'll see you at midnight
Corey
40:54
I've got the election yeah
Corey
40:56
after the election missile show gets put up next
Annalise
41:01
um our next segment is called an early apology so the UCP candidate in Livingston McLeod has issued an all-encompassing apology for past social media posts um if for those who haven't seen it she posted I think it was this weekend that she you know it was like a long post she said I've used social media since I was a teen I
Annalise
41:21
I have many old posts I'm not proud of um I've often used humor to deal with trauma or high stress environments that includes using crude or inappropriate language etc etc I'm
Annalise
41:31
I'm really curious about um your guys's take on this strategy here like this strategy of before before anything even And I guess it's worth noting, this is the same candidate who
Annalise
41:43
who said people who have heart attacks should be held accountable. But before anything has even come out, putting like this all-encompassing, hey, I'm sorry, good strategy, bad strategy? strategy
Corey
41:55
i kind of love it yeah i
Corey
41:57
i kind of love it like you know it's like could
Carter
41:59
could you imagine cory or i running for office like the first thing we'd have to do
Carter
42:03
is do a blanket apology
Carter
42:09
once had this diatribe about diversity and i'd like to apologize about it and everything else like it'd be fantastic yeah
Corey
42:17
yeah look here's the reality reality, people
Corey
42:20
people have lives on social media and they're messy because lives are messy and we're living our lives more and more online as things go. And this is going to happen. And so I do kind of love this blanket, like, Hey, it's, it's out there. I do get a kick out of the idea that you can just declare social media bankruptcy. Like that's not really a thing. Like I'm still allowed to be offended by a post that you had, right? It's not like you can be protected from social media creditors who are going to come and be like that was bullshit but the um you
Corey
42:50
you know the the interesting thing is of course that it seems like a bit of a canary in the coal mine too like if this hasn't sent half a dozen amateur sleuths and half a dozen journalists in addition through everything this candidate has done i mean i don't know why like there's a real um i mean strice in effect might not even be the right term here maybe it is but yeah because you're gonna you're gonna you've drawn attention to your social media in like a truly epic fashion but
Corey
43:16
but on the other hand you've already disavowed it all wholesale so who
Annalise
43:20
knows do you think she did this on her own or do you think the party knows that something is about to drop and headquarters made her do it uh
Corey
43:28
uh it could easily be either um but if it is her on her own it's pretty wild because you definitely you definitely don't want to do that without at least somebody considering the communications ramifications ramifications of it because it does create pressure on other campaigns in interesting ways and you have also given a pass to any ndp candidate who wants to do the exact same because they can be like well just like the candidate in livingston mcleod and so it comes down to who's going to have more baggage on these things you know it i think it's too big to leave in the individual candidates hands if they did it on their own they should have thought about what it might mean to you know a dozen actual competitive races and what it could have done Carter,
Annalise
44:09
Carter, do you think this is something we'll see more often as we have people who have been online since they were like teens? Like, is this, did
Annalise
44:21
did you see something like this, you know, 10, 15 years ago? And is this more, like, are we going to see more of those? Well,
Carter
44:28
Well, I think 10, 15 years ago, we weren't dealing with nearly the same type of problems that we would, you know, like, people who 10, 15 years ago are running, we're putting up their social media posts just a few years prior. And those social media posts, therefore, we're closer to their, their standing today, right? Like, you said this two years ago, have you, you know, do you disavow that? You know, in fact, this woman said the the heart attack thing, I think, really recently, wasn't it? I can't remember the exact date. right?
Carter
44:58
I like this. I like this a lot because I don't think that we should be held to the standard that every word that we've ever uttered is the defining words of our humanity. I think our humanity should be allowed to shift and change. And you should be able to say, I thought that then I was wrong. I think this now. I think that that's an essential part of growth. And we've talked before that at some point we're going to have a a candidate that's got a naked photograph up online and everybody's going to rub their hands and and you know come after that person um and and i just don't think that that's the right thing to do in this you know when young people are sharing information and and using social media in a me in a way that that we didn't in the we didn't this this generation that you
Carter
45:53
you know has corrupted all youth and destroyed all humanity um so i i kind of hope i you know it's a ucp candidate and that you know i guess should color my my response but no
Carter
46:05
no i like this i think that this is this is a good thing for society in general and a good thing for candidates and will hopefully allow us to get some candidates that are more normal yeah
Corey
46:16
yeah i'll tell you this it is um it's pretty easy for a modern campaign to take absolutely nothing and turn it into an outrage like my god they retweeted somebody who'd use the hashtag to fund the police for example right
Corey
46:30
and i understand i understand that campaigns are going to come and they're going to continue to mine social media they're going to continue to go through these things and find the things to throw at other people i don't want to sound naive about that but i also firmly believe as a human that humans have the capacity for change and growth growth and if our entire lives are on the record now we're
Corey
46:52
we're gonna have to grapple with this we need to talk about this and we need to think about this and we in a world that cannot forget we need to learn how to forgive oh it's as simple as that hang
Annalise
47:01
hang on a second just hang on just give
Annalise
47:05
give me a minute jesus
Corey
47:07
that's so good carter's
Annalise
47:10
carter's answer had like he's like this and this a naked woman and then uh and then cory woman i
Carter
47:17
i did not say naked woman i said a naked candidate a candidate i was very specific because
Corey
47:23
because it very was actually thinking about his candidate i
Carter
47:25
i was thinking about anthony wiener if i'm honest if i'm honest the
Annalise
47:30
part of your answer made it sound like you were going to announce that you're running soon carter um
Carter
47:36
alberta party leader didn't zane already get that do
Annalise
47:39
do you think it goes full to your point cory i guess both years like Like, do you think it goes full circle a little bit? Because there was this generation where, you
Annalise
47:48
you know, you were posting online not knowing, like, this is going to be here in 10 years. Like, I think of, like, Nexopia. I don't know if there's any, that word probably means nothing to you guys. But, like, Nexopia was this, like, Alberta thing when I was in high school that was, like, MySpace or Facebook. But it was Alberta and it was super popular.
Annalise
48:07
People listening will know what Nexopia is. Yeah,
Carter
48:09
no one will know.
Annalise
48:11
but like you're like 14 and you're posting on it and you're not thinking this is going to be around for 10 or 15 years but nowadays when i and i don't know maybe carter you can speak to like your kids or something i think it kind of went eventually of oh
Annalise
48:25
oh yeah this is out there forever and people are more worried about their safety and disclosing maybe like where
Annalise
48:30
where they live or careful about their views in case they want to do something in the future like is
Annalise
48:35
is there is Is there kind of only a specific generation that can do the all-encompassing apology or you guys think it will
Annalise
48:44
will hit for a while? It's
Carter
48:46
It's so much worse than that because it's not just a generation. You described an aptitude and the aptitude is that group of people who at like 15 think that they're going to be some sort of public representative and therefore they marshal and control and change
Carter
49:03
change their output on their social media. I'll tell you something. That person's not the person we want to elect. That person's a wacko.
Carter
49:11
Right. That person. Who
Annalise
49:12
Who thinks about that at 15? Exactly.
Carter
49:14
Exactly. So if we're if we're like saying, well, you know, don't worry, because the people who really want to serve will will patrol themselves and make sure that they're not captured in a photograph with blackface. That's not the way that you necessarily want to think about things. You want to think about things like people are going to make mistakes when they're younger. And in fact, the people who've made mistakes when when you're younger, may have way more to offer than people who just kind of felt like Pierre Pauliev. I'm going to become some sort of, I will be your leader. And he's thought that. He's thought about being the prime minister since he was, you know, in diapers. And that's just, that's just a weird kid. That's not a, that's not a normal human being situation.
Annalise
49:55
Okay, last question on this is, I want to talk about Deborah Drever. Like, think about what happened there and maybe um for our new to alberta people one of you can give a little quick synopsis but how how would how do you think all of that would have played out differently if she had done an all-encompassing apology uh before anything started leaking
Carter
50:19
do you remember the specifics there corey i'm struggling on the specifics i know that she i think
Corey
50:24
think it was like like it was the shirt that had like cannabis on it and stuff different time My God, for sure. You know, the thing is, it was a different era. It was a wave election that brought the NDP in. If she had put out that blanket apology ahead of time, I think it would have been used as evidence of the NDP's flightiness. It probably would not have been particularly helpful either to her or the campaign. The reality is Deborah Drever won during a wave election, was not anticipated to win, was a
Corey
50:52
a paper candidate, frankly,
Corey
50:55
the NDP and ultimately pulled it out. And there was a bit of time in the wilderness where she was removed from caucus, right? But that time ended. I don't think it would have been better for her. I actually think the way it played out now, or like then, is the way you would kind of expect it to play out. If anything, I think that the social media posts that Debra Drever was getting criticized for were super mild.
Annalise
51:22
Wasn't there one... And with the benefit
Corey
51:23
benefit of an additional eight years, I think that's doubling the... There
Annalise
51:26
There was a cannabis shirt, but wasn't there one that called someone gay?
Corey
51:30
Oh, I don't remember that, so maybe I shouldn't be...
Annalise
51:33
this shows all of our memories from eight years but i've there was it was like i remember it was that slow kind of trickle of she did this and then a couple days later now we found this post and now we found this post okay
Corey
51:51
okay well i don't remember that one that's that's not ideal but the um um
Corey
51:56
um yeah i still don't think that going in advance would have helped her in that particular case that would have just brought those into the election and probably been a challenge for the ndp right yeah
Carter
52:04
yeah i mean i think that also there's there's death by a thousand cuts and that's ultimately what she suffered yeah
Carter
52:10
um this wasn't you
Carter
52:12
you know the ndp the the this
Carter
52:15
this was kind of a settling of the score right a settling of the score where um you know this candidate had won that uh hadn't been intended to win um the the the conservative you know dug up some some dirt on her and you know the media were aghast you know shocked shocked i tell you uh to define this type of behavior on the internet. And it was an easy story. How does this paper candidate become a, you
Carter
52:45
you know, an MLA who's now serving us and we drag her back down, right? Because that's ultimately what we're doing as society. Someone has lifted themselves above what we perceive to be their station and we drag them down. And I'm not, I don't think that that's our best, I don't think that's our best side as a society. I think that that's one of our weakest traits in And society is dragging people back down to where we think that they should be. You
Carter
53:13
You know, so Debra Drever just happened to be easy pickings at the wrong time. It wouldn't have mattered what she did.
Annalise
53:21
Okay, let's leave that there and move into our lightning round. Hang on a
Carter
53:29
Can you try that again with a little more excitement?
Annalise
53:34
You're the one who started this episode all down. No,
Carter
53:36
No, but I'm better
Annalise
53:37
better now. It's been like a beautiful weekend outside, sunny, the whole time, and you're all grumpy. Okay,
Carter
53:43
Okay, hang on. We're also inserting commercials in these now, so we have to actually give Maddie a pause.
Annalise
53:48
The lightning round! There
Carter
53:49
There you go. It's
Annalise
53:52
The lightning round. We're going to do this a tiny bit maybe differently. I'm going to give you some rapid-fire questions that are sort of prediction-based, because it is Rit Eve. Oh,
Annalise
54:04
Yeah. and you and and we're getting you on the record and uh okay first one steven carter hang
Carter
54:10
hang on is this gonna haunt me if i choose to become a candidate for the alberta party leadership no
Carter
54:16
okay then that's good ask the question you
Annalise
54:18
you are seriously considering no
Carter
54:20
no i'm not seriously yeah yeah
Annalise
54:23
yeah you are are you recruiting your big that's your big comeback yeah
Annalise
54:27
um okay how many How many seats does the UCP get? How many seats does the NDP get? Stephen Carter, go.
Carter
54:33
UCP 42, NDP 45. Corey
Corey
54:38
Yeah, that sounds fine. I'm good with that. I think you
Carter
54:41
it just to fuck with me. You should flip
Annalise
54:43
flip it just to fuck with me. Yeah, how can you bet if you're agreeing? 45
Carter
54:47
UCP. Write this one down. 45 UCP, 42 NDP, says Corey Hogan. Yeah.
Corey
54:54
Yeah. No, that's not what Corey Hogan said. said i how about um how about 43 43 and then one um to an independent who was a member of the party but was kicked out because of um you
Corey
55:11
all that pornographic photos that's
Annalise
55:13
that's good now we're getting crazy um next question steven carter if
Corey
55:16
if this happens though i'm gonna look like you're so good a fucking genius i think this
Carter
55:20
happen i think that you well yeah you've called the ball math he's he's
Annalise
55:28
steven carter how many candidates step down for offensive social media posts this this go around two
Carter
55:36
two from the ndp and five more from the ucp you're
Annalise
55:39
you're not even being serious with my question two of
Carter
55:42
of them will be for calling people of minorities the wrong thing ironically one from each team um so it's going to be quite interesting interesting i'm i've cory
Annalise
55:52
cory hogan how many the
Corey
55:54
the the one the one that becomes the balance of power in the 43 legislature perfect
Annalise
55:59
perfect um okay next rapid fire oh here's one an important deadline has passed i don't know if either of you take note of this but daniel smith gave cbc an april 28th deadline to retract and apologize for reporting um before she may take legal action under the the defamation act i have not seen an apology or a retraction from cbc maybe i don't know if you guys have i've been outside a lot this weekend um rapid fire cory hogan will she take legal action yes or no she'll
Corey
56:31
she'll threaten it at least five more times uh and maybe even take the first steps but it it
Corey
56:37
it will never actually get there stephen
Carter
56:39
stephen carter she will never ever file even a notice of defamation okay
Annalise
56:45
uh rapid fire what are the top three issues of this election steven carter in
Carter
56:51
health care is number one number two is the economy in general and number three is uh
Corey
57:02
such what's in such yeah what's
Carter
57:03
what's in such you
Corey
57:05
know what's in such it's access to number two pencils like what are we talking about
Carter
57:09
about it's access to number two pencils i'm not allowed to get into details because i work for the university of never mind waterloo cory
Annalise
57:16
cory what are the top three issues i
Corey
57:20
i think we know it's affordability it's health care it's economy in that order okay
Annalise
57:25
okay what what number is arena it's
Corey
57:27
it's not it's not on and in fact i think that in two weeks we'll be like remember when we thought the arena would define this election and we'll be so surprised at ourselves do
Annalise
57:35
do you guys think we'll see polling this week critique on Arena specifically that changes some things?
Corey
57:42
Well, I think we will. I don't know how much it will change. I've heard about a couple of different polls that showed, snap polls showed Calgarians supported it. But, you know, it often takes a week or so to settle on these things. And I suspect we'll find that it's a much more mixed picture when we get it and deeply ambiguous.
Annalise
58:01
Carter, Arena, are you still really, really upset?
Carter
58:03
I'm extraordinarily upset. And I think that the average calgarian won't be because they're not as smart as i am okay
Annalise
58:11
we're gonna leave it there that's
Annalise
58:14
that's a wrap on episode 1056 you
Carter
58:17
let you finish this podcast at exactly the same time as
Carter
58:21
as you did the last podcast how
Corey
58:24
she's trying to but it's
Annalise
58:25
it's my name that's a wrap on episode that's amazing my name is annalise clingbeil no not at all with you as always Stephen Carter, Corey Hogan. It just happened. It's just happened. You're amazing.