Transcript
Zain
0:01
This is A Strategist, episode 1049. My name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Stephen Carter, happy Good Friday. Well, every Friday is a good Friday.
Zain
0:13
It's a great Friday. It's
Zain
0:14
It's a great Friday, Corey. How does that make you feel that we're now using Good Friday as a moniker for any Friday?
Corey
0:20
I like it. I always thought that limiting it to one a year was probably a little not enough. A little not enough. Yeah, that's what I'm going to say. A
Zain
0:29
A little not enough. We've got our episode title right off the bat. Carter, question for you very quickly. The play-in tournament, is it working for you or is it not working for you? Let
Carter
0:38
Let me tell you something. I was really a big fan of it in the first half. The second half, my faith in the play-in tournament fell apart.
Zain
0:47
Tell us about the difference between the first and the second half, those eagerly awaiting to just get educated on the subject matter. Well,
Carter
0:53
Well, let me just tell you this. No one could hit a free throw shot for their own lives. And I'll tell you, if you miss those free points, you're not going to get the hard ones.
Zain
1:04
I'm sorry. Did you call them free points? Yeah.
Zain
1:07
Sorry. You called them free points. Free.
Carter
1:09
Free. They're like free points.
Zain
1:11
How much is a free point worth? Two.
Zain
1:15
Free point is worth one. One.
Zain
1:18
You'd think a free point would be worth zero because it'd be worth nothing, but it is worth one. Corey, reflections to Stephen Carter before we move on.
Corey
1:24
You know, I didn't quite
Corey
1:26
quite know what to make of it, which is usually my response to Stephen Carter. I will say, fundamentally, I
Corey
1:31
I have no faith he knows what he's talking about, as always. And the correct answer to this was, it's irrelevant because the Washington Wizards didn't even make it to the play-in. And the Spurs are even worse than the Washington Wizards. So why are we even talking about it?
Carter
1:45
This is a good point.
Carter
1:46
Why are we talking about it?
Carter
1:48
I missed yesterday on the Sydney Swans, too. This
Carter
1:51
is just where I am.
Carter
1:52
I'm missing out on a whole bunch of stuff.
Zain
1:55
I've got something very exciting to talk about before we begin the show. Can I talk about this? Sure. You know, I don't get a lot of- Is it the Spurs?
Corey
2:00
Are we going to talk about the Spurs? It's
Zain
2:02
It's not the San
Zain
2:03
San Antonio Spurs. I could spend a long time talking about Calgary's upcoming basketball team. No, the
Zain
2:08
The Surge. I'm looking
Zain
2:09
forward to that. I'm wearing a Surge hat. Go Surge.
Zain
2:13
There's a win. win. Our sponsor has won, Corey Hogan, because there was a B737 earmarked to go to an Australian startup, okay? This startup called Bonza, okay?
Zain
2:25
okay? It's one of those piece of shit, low-budget airline. Guess what? Guess what's happening, Corey? Guess
Corey
2:33
Guess what's happening? A different low-budget airline won? Guess what's happening? What's happening? The
Zain
2:39
home, baby. It's coming home. Stephen Carter, it's coming home to our sponsor. How exciting is this? This almost makes me want to, you know, use one of our sponsors' free passes that they give us
Zain
2:55
to announce a promotion. But I'm not going to Stephen Carter. Let's just celebrate the fact that the 737-8 is coming home to Canada where it belongs, not to that shitty continent and country, Australia, Stephen Carter. Any reaction to this? Listen,
Carter
3:08
Listen, first of all, I'm told that that continent's actually made up.
Carter
3:11
I have some very close friends. Not real. Yeah, it's just a made up continent. So having been there, I'm
Carter
3:18
I'm not sure it's made up. But on the other hand, it was when I was young and we don't have real vivid recollections of that period of time.
Zain
3:27
This is good. This is good improv quality material. Corey doesn't even want to weigh in on it. He doesn't even care about the fact that the 737 is coming home. Corey, you and I are going to go on a trip. You and I are going to go on a
Corey
3:37
a trip together. We're
Zain
3:37
We're going to sit there for a long time. We're going to take a 12-hour trip for a one-hour flight. Corey, let's move it on. We're moving on to our first segment. Our first segment, guys, fine, fabulous, or absolutely fucked. It is a classic. It is being brought back because we've got a lot of stuff to talk about on the federal scene. A lot of stuff that is happening in the Trudeau camp, a few things happening in the Pierre Pauliev camp. Some might even call him an own goal on the Pierre Pauliev side. Is he becoming so annoying that he's actually fucking himself over? That is an open question that we will discuss. That's
Corey
4:11
That's a bit of
Corey
4:12
a loaded open question,
Zain
4:13
question, but yeah, keep going. Is it? Oh, I mean, has it ever not been that I offer my opinion through the questions? No, this is exactly what we expect. Exactly, yeah. What's
Zain
4:22
What's Corey talking about? You want a third strategy? You have a third strategist on the show. He takes up most of the airtime with his questions. Stephen Carter, the rules of the game are simple. I give you a situation, and I give you a person, party, political operative in question, and I ask you, is it fine, fabulous, or fucked for that political party, for that political operative? Corey, Carter, let's start with you, and then I'll go with you on this one. Corey, let's start with the Trudeau Foundation. The foundation named not after Justin Trudeau, but after Pierre Elliott Trudeau, started after his passing. its executive director and all but three of
Zain
4:57
of its board directors are gone, mass firing, we're done, or mass resignation. Let's call it what it is, a mass resignation.
Zain
5:07
Pierre Polyev is trying to be tying this to Justin Trudeau and the federal liberals who are currently in power. But let me ask you this, for the Trudeau government, government the mass resignation of the ed and all but three board directors of the trudeau foundation fine fabulous or fucked in your mind i
Carter
5:25
think it's fine i think it's fine i think it's obviously bad for those folks that felt that they couldn't do uh the good work that they were ascribed to do by the mandate of the foundation um but you know it's not something that's going to have a long-term impact on politics in canada in my humble opinion because it's just one of of those stories that is completely manufactured um
Carter
5:49
you know skippy tried to make an issue out of this uh the
Carter
5:52
the government of the day responded to minimize the the impact and
Carter
5:57
and as a result kind of cut the legs out from under the foundation's board of directors and the board resigned because they didn't like having the legs cut out from underneath them it's going to be a super hard story for pierre paul you have to tell on the on the trail without just making it a bastardized lie which i think we're going to talk about later. So I'm just going to leave that as an illusion for the future.
Zain
6:18
Yeah, you should. And there is a B-side to the story that I want to talk to you guys about, right, in a second. But Corey, like to the question that I posed to Carter, for the liberals,
Zain
6:27
fine, fabulous, or fucked in your mind, this mass resignation from the Trudeau Foundation?
Corey
6:31
It's somewhere between fine and fucked. I think Stephen is glossing over it. And the most important comment is the one he made at the end about like a bastardization would be possible here. And let's be really clear. Yes, it's the Trudeau Foundation. Yes, it's about Pierre Elliott Trudeau. Yes, there is separation from Justin Trudeau. But no, it's not something he can entirely walk away from. It's a foundation named after his family, his father specifically. And there is going to be that conflation in people's minds. And look, if we were talking Donald Trump and the Donald Trump Foundation and Eric Trump, for example, saying, I have nothing to do with that foundation. Now, admittedly, in this particular scenario, Eric Trump was involved in the foundation. But the fact is, the family names there, it's all tied together. If the foundation elevates reputation, the foundation can bring down reputation. And that's just something you have to be mindful of when you have a foundation. Wealthy people who have foundations face these these challenges all the time the reputation of the foundation and their reputation one and the same in many cases and the fact that it's named after a father rather than the son pretty irrelevant because a lot of foundations take that particular approach too and you know i could even think of like my my alma mater is you know ivy right named after richard ivy senior but the donation was given by richard ivy jr do you think people say like well no that's his father that's not him Like there's that conflation happens. That's just a blurring that they have to live with. And so that's really unfortunate for Justin Trudeau, but it's a reality. The foundation's woes are his woes. And in a lot of Canadians' eyes, they will say, well, something
Corey
8:08
something that elevates the foundation by proxy elevates Justin Trudeau. And I, you know, you don't have to work too hard to see the connection and the graft, frankly. Oh,
Zain
8:19
I think that's a very cogent point. What do you disagree with there? Because
Carter
8:23
Because it's an independent foundation run by an independent board of directors. And, you
Carter
8:29
know, sure, it's got the guy's name on it, but is he also responsible for the airport in Montreal? Like, this is just, it's just insane to think that...
Zain
8:37
Well, let me add a wrinkle. Let me add a wrinkle. Fuck. Well, actually, let me ask you a question and then add a wrinkle. Yeah. Do you guys feel with this mass resignation that, and it seems like there is a bit of let's try to save the furniture going on at the Trudeau Foundation right now. Now, they've asked today to ask the Auditor General to investigate the donation from Chinese benefactors. They're also doing their own forensic audit.
Zain
8:59
In your mind, is this headed to save
Zain
9:02
save the furniture, do everything just to survive territory? Because the question I have is, what damage would this do? If the question today was less about a resignation, Stephen Carter, but the question today was, the Trudeau Foundation is shutting its fucking doors. course,
Zain
9:20
fine, fabulous, or fucked for the liberals. I could see that being a question I ask you in six weeks' time or six months' time. So talk to me about that scenario. If the Trudeau Foundation is indeed headed for a shuttering of its doors, talk to me about the political fine, fabulous, or fuckedness, Carter, for the liberals in that scenario. And then, Corey, I want to ask you that same question.
Carter
9:40
question. It's still fine for me. It's just fine. I mean, it's not something—I cannot see people making a decision about who they're going to support in the next election based on this
Carter
9:54
level of weak allegation. Sure, it's going to be catnip for the hardcore
Carter
10:01
conservatives that are going to go, oh, yeah, I'll go raise some money off of this. Good
Carter
10:06
Good for you, Pierre. Good for you. We're very proud that you were able to go off and misconstrue this whole story and get some money off of it but no one gives a shit it's it's got a really low give a fuck factor it's always going to have a low give a fuck factor even
Zain
10:20
even if the headline is trudeau foundation closes its doors carter i mean i don't want to push you you are you
Carter
10:26
are going to push me but i just don't see this as being a factor it's just it's not something that's ever going to score high enough on the give a fuck factor to actually make an impact you know how i know this because Every time we talk about these things, three to six months later, there's something else for us to talk about. It will be forgotten in the sands of time and it will not be deep enough to write the enduring story. The enduring story is the primary brand story. We talk a lot about establishing brands. This isn't going to establish a brand.
Zain
11:00
This just isn't. Let me come back to that on brands because you've opened up another line of questioning, which I'll get. Corey, let's say the headline in six weeks. Let me use six weeks as an arbitrary measure. Trudeau Foundation can't fucking survive shutters, doors, fine, fabulous, or fucked. You said that the current story is an in-between on fine and fucked. What would that story be to you for the political damage it would cause the liberals?
Corey
11:21
Do you know, in a funny way, I think it would actually cause less damage because then that separation would be almost an unavoidable element of the story, right? As people were talking about, well, but the foundation exists separately and Justin Trudeau is not actually involved in it. And that delineation almost would would be an important component of the story as it was being explained to readers and listeners. So in some ways, it reduces the risk. Still a little fucked for all of the reasons I said. And look, the idea of Pierre Elliott Trudeau Airport being the equivalent here, let's actually use that example. If the federal bureaucracy decided to put all of its money into Pierre Elliott Trudeau Airport, and do you think it would actually work for the prime minister to say, you know it's named after my dad but it has nothing to do with my dad right the reality is no but you're it gets messy no it gets messy it gets messy when your name is tied to all of these things for the same reason schools it's
Corey
12:16
it's no it's the same as trump is the comp here is trump no
Corey
12:20
when you put things in blind trust when you have your name over everything you can't be surprised if that comes back and bites you in the ass so
Zain
12:26
so here's a here's a question for you i'm going to stick with cory on this because yeah because
Carter
12:29
because he's the wrong one
Carter
12:30
he needs to explain himself i I understand.
Zain
12:32
Well, Corey, let me tell you this. If you're in the liberal camp right now, and
Zain
12:37
and you're looking at the Trudeau Foundation potentially on the road to failure, right, potentially on the road to that headline that I mentioned could happen six weeks from now, you've got one of three options. Do nothing, accelerate its demise, prevent it from failing.
Zain
12:50
Which door are you choosing? And which is the most strategic door to choose, right? Like, obviously, put that hat on. Which is the most strategic door to choose? Let's say you don't get found out with whatever you need to do. But would you accelerate its demise? Would you try to prop it up? Because the Trudeau name can go down in the mud. Or would you just do nothing and say that's the best strategic move right now as a partisan liberal?
Corey
13:11
It is easily do nothing. You can't actually separate the risk from that decision. So I know you said like, and you don't get- I'm trying to game
Zain
13:19
game it. I'm trying to game it for a
Corey
13:20
a bit. Yes, yes. But like the reality is that's your worst case scenario, because you've been talking about how independent it is for so long. And then if you do anything to put your thumb on the scale in any direction, you're breaking this notion of independence in such a massive way. The risk reward there is so high. Like you just stay away from it. Do you think they'd let it fail?
Corey
13:39
Do you think they'd let it fail?
Zain
13:42
same question to you. Do you think they'd let it fail? And what door are you choosing? If you're a partisan liberal right now, prop it up, accelerate its demise, because Corey talks about some strategic benefits there, or that simply do nothing? Well,
Carter
13:54
I think that people are choosing to let it go. I think there's probably going to be a challenge
Carter
13:59
challenge of the number of donations that are received by it, because right now people don't want to give money lest they be political fodder for PP and his and his little friends. So he, you know, they're, they're choosing, um,
Carter
14:14
um, the donors are choosing the direction of this. The, the liberals don't have to, uh,
Carter
14:19
uh, assuming that the liberals are in some fashion, the same, same ones that are the donors, um,
Carter
14:23
um, that's already being decided. But overall,
Carter
14:26
overall, I mean, this is just something that's just gotta be a headache for, uh, for Justin. He gets no benefit from it, just pain. So who gives a shit if it dies?
Carter
14:34
Let it go. I mean, as long as it doesn't go out owing everybody everything, then,
Carter
14:39
you know, a foundation that was giving away money and doing good work is gone.
Carter
14:44
It won't be the first, won't be the last under the Trudeau legacy.
Zain
14:49
Corey, if you were hired to help the Trudeau Foundation, what would your suggestion here be? They've asked the Auditor General, let's just say to save the organization. Sorry, let me be clear. Like they've hired to be like, Corey, let us save what's here. They've asked the Auditor General. They're doing their own forensic audit. What would you be suggesting as a strategy professional, even as a marketing and comms professional? There might be some ideas at that board meeting that you get invited to, Corey, that say, should we just rebrand? Should we just make it a broader tent? Should we get rid of the Trudeau name? Is that the issue here? What should we be doing? Corey, what would your advice be? Carter, I'll ask you the same, and then I will, yes, finally, after 15 minutes, move it on.
Corey
15:27
Yeah, don't get rid of the name. you get rid of the name and your future is pretty much preordained you are then we charity in a funny way as much as this has been an anchor that's pulled you down it's also a buoy that's going to float you up like there are going to be a lot of canadians out there who will not want the trudeau foundation to die you do need to think about your cash flow you need to think about your burn and you need to reduce it because at this point what you need more than anything is time to allow this particular situation to play out but at the end of the day being the pierre elliott trudeau foundation is
Corey
16:00
is a certain it keeps you above water yeah at a certain level right it's something that people will support because of their love of pierre elliott trudeau and because the man himself is such a prominent person in canadian politics in a way that we charity simply was not right so partisan liberals trying to game it from a political point of view no dice lots of canadians out there who will say i find it outrageous that something you know the trudeau foundation would go down because of their political leanings and and you can you can take advantage of that without taking
Corey
16:29
taking advantage of it without going too far on that front so time don't
Corey
16:34
don't get rid of the brand you've just got to find your new baseline but the pierre elliot trudeau foundation pretty deeply ingrained into the power structures of canada like i think the current chair is a former vp of power Power Corp. And, you know, everybody has connections with the elite all over the place there. It's not going to go down like the Kuhlbergers and the We Charity, unless they do something really wild. What they need to do right now is think about it less, like
Corey
17:01
like their risk is reputational is significant, but because it's tied up in partisan politics now, they also are going to have partisan boosters in a way that We Charity couldn't have had. They just need to make sure that they can actually survive from a financial point of view at this point.
Zain
17:16
Carter, what would your advice be if you were hired to attend the next board meeting with those three directors that are trying to right the ship? No executive director, but Stephen Carter's their man. What would we need to do, Carter, to keep this thing afloat? Let's just talk about survival here. What strategic advice would you be giving them? I
Carter
17:33
I think the number one thing is to just kind of keep your head down. I mean, Justin Trudeau is not going to be prime minister forever.
Carter
17:40
So survive through this. Don't create a stink. I think that the reaching out to the Auditor General to do an audit is this attempt to kind of clean off your feet. You know, this is what's happened. We're going to try and clean ourselves up.
Carter
17:53
It doesn't matter if you're clean. It doesn't matter because at the end of the day, the partisans aren't going to go, well, we were mistaken. They're actually clean.
Carter
18:02
They're going to continue to use you as the punching bag that you are right now.
Carter
18:06
So just be the punching bag for a bit. I'm sure that they've got enough assets and resources to
Carter
18:13
They get through their difficult
Carter
18:14
difficult period. And then when Justin Trudeau is no longer the prime
Carter
18:18
prime minister, they come out with a glorious refocus
Carter
18:22
refocus because now the
Carter
18:25
the son of the former prime minister is the former prime minister as well. And
Carter
18:29
And they've got two former Trudeaus that are out trying to do good work. Because let's keep in mind, this thing is actually trying to do, right?
Carter
18:36
It's out there trying to do good work. So, you know, I think that accepting a bad donation donation from the Chinese isn't going to define you forever. This is one of the things I struggle with with all nonprofits. They get all hung up on who should we take money from.
Carter
18:50
People are going to try and clean themselves or cleanse themselves by giving money to charity.
Carter
18:57
Do good work with it.
Zain
19:00
Reputational laundromatting, it's a big thing. Corey, you want to jump in on this before we move on?
Corey
19:04
Yeah. I think that having the AG review things, maybe there's some precedent for for that. Maybe it's appropriate. It's unfortunate because if you're trying to say the Trudeau Foundation is not tied to the government, going
Corey
19:15
going to the government's auditor... I know.
Corey
19:17
was going to just
Corey
19:18
Yeah. Causes some challenges there. That really muddies the water and it plays into this counter-narrative that there is this deep integration.
Zain
19:26
Would a charity that we know off the street or doing good social work or arts work go to the AG? Like, it's a weird... I was trying to understand that in my own reading and I couldn't other than to say, well, you've got the context to be able to have the AG look at your file, which to your point, makes the opposite point you were trying to make in some way. But I do want to move it on here. In fact, I could take some advice from you guys. Do you want to do all the peer stuff as a bucket? Because there was a lot? Or do you want to do it together? In fact, I look at the smile and I feel like that is a smile of joy from Carter that I've not seen in a long time. Carter, we'll let you indulge in a few of these. I
Carter
20:01
I like them. Yeah, because I get to pick them apart and point Point out the differences and really enjoy it. Let's talk about the
Zain
20:08
the tax on the CBC. So this week at a press conference, Pierre Pauliev had a back and forth with a reporter who asked him, you know, I'm going to paraphrase here because I don't have the actual script in front of me, but I'll pull it up. If you want to defund the CBC, are you going to do that to Radio Canada, which would be toxic in Quebec? Are you going to change the legislation
Zain
20:25
to do that? He says, aren't you from the fucking Canadian press? Isn't the CBC your biggest client? They say, yes, we're from the Canadian press. Yes, the CBC is our biggest client. Okay, well, I don't want you to have a conflict of interest with your CBC overlords. And then he goes on with a rant that calls CBC a biased propaganda arm of the Liberal Party. Corey, conservative leaders historically have attacked the CBC. This seems to be an increasing Pierre style of rhetoric, so maybe not all that surprising. Strategy, strategy, strategy, though. Fine, fabulous, or fucked. The work that Pierre is doing on this particular file, this particular tone against the CBC, the tone that he's creating, creating fine fabulous or fucked from a pure strategy level for himself in your mind we'll start with you uh
Corey
21:10
uh i think individually it's actually fine but as part of a broader pattern of behavior it's a bit fucked let's let's talk about the cbc issue specifically and then let's broaden what i think is pierre's challenge and i think i'll probably be returning to this a few times based on what i know else has happened this week yeah
Corey
21:28
so the cbc issue defund the cbc in polling you will generally see that canadians support that more than they don't they want to reduce funding for the cbc like 46 37 support for it you know strongly is on both side but generally speaking it's an issue where there's more people who want to reduce funding for the cbc than them want to maintain funding for the cbc so it is a bit of a winner right in terms of like a policy issue for the government but that said there there was always two things to consider in any political communication on policy right the first is the product the product's a winner the second is the packaging and he's got to think about the tone and the way he's comporting himself and how he's bringing himself into public conversations here because it's
Corey
22:15
it's almost the opposite of like the the worst person you know makes a point you know that meme yeah
Corey
22:21
right it's almost like really
Corey
22:23
really you know really good point made in a way that is just so off-putting that that you find you can't agree with the point. Like, we've all been there in a meeting where you kind of agree with the attacker, but you think they're being such a dick, you almost find yourself jumping the defense of the person that's being attacked. And this is a bit of an example of that. Like, for starters, why bring Canadian press into it? I
Corey
22:45
I don't think that Canadians, if you were going to poll them on Canadian press, then Canadian press should go down in flames or that they're some deeply partisan organization. That's, you know, maybe there are pockets of people Maybe that's something going on in the right-wing blogosphere right now. Canadians as a whole, general population, not pissed off with Canadian press. So you've taken an issue that was strong and you've made it weak, right? But the second is you're just being a jerk about it. And at the end of the day, I just don't believe Canadians are jerks. And I don't think that they want to be represented by a jerk. And Pierre Polyev needs to be careful that while he's playing to a bass that is very animated and very riled up, and while he's trying to take tactics that worked for Donald Trump, he doesn't forget the context. Canada is not the United States. And while there might be kind of a growing antipathy between partisan sides in this country, we're not there, and we're not them. And there are different considerations here. We don't have winner takes all states. We go writing by writing. And we're ultimately just not as nasty of a people in public discourse. So he's got to watch that as he goes forward. word yeah
Zain
23:48
yeah do you i'm gonna stick with i'm car i'm coming to you i'm gonna stick with you cory do you think if you were to ask pierre like a a polygraph right like tell me the truth yeah are you being a prick or do you actually view this as something more strategic would you classify it as something else do you think they'd agree that he's actually just a jerk or a prick or do they think would you say that you know actually there's maybe another definition that they're looking at in his relatability if they agree with you on the premise that canadians don't vote this sort of person in what do you think their answer to what he's trying to do would be yeah
Corey
24:20
yeah i mean i think that this is a combination of strategy and reflex right interesting certainly they know that this is an issue that they're they're on the right side of canadians and the liberals are somewhat wrong footed it's very difficult to say yeah give more money to the public broadcaster it's one of the few things it's one of the few things canadians want to cut right
Carter
24:39
the only thing now
Corey
24:40
now you can yeah you can argue whether that's the right approach i would argue it's not i think it's valuable to have a public broadcaster that's
Corey
24:48
especially in these times where we're seeing a general defunding by hedge funds of media all over this bloody country right but so i think you start there i think he talks to people that rile him up though and i think that he sometimes one of the things i've always given pierre paulie a very high marks for is his ability to code switch and move from talking to kind of the right wing you
Corey
25:11
know very right wing i'm trying to avoid the word lunatic that's not fair that's pejorative but you know the very animated very angry right winger to the more moderate canadian and he didn't code switch in this moment he stayed in the angry right winger mode and he's doing that more and more he's losing himself in that mode this
Zain
25:28
this is interesting carter want to come to you with with the same question um but corey your point is interesting i i'd say his his skill is code switching you're right and has historically been But it has been, when you say talking to, I haven't necessarily seen it in a conversation. I think every time he has a conversation with another person, I've always seen that jerk sort of prick sort of attitude, almost like I'm trying to win a debate against you. And I want to talk about that in a second. But Carter, I want to give you the same shot on this. His rhetoric against the CBC, I laid out the story in broad terms. Fine, fabulous, or fucked from pure strategy. Pure strategy. I know you don't like the guy. Pure strategy, his packaging, and his choice of product. Let's use Corey's term. fine fabulous or fucked as you see it right now i
Carter
26:11
i think it's fucked and i think the way that it was fucked is because he was channeling elon musk i mean elon had had just done that whole cb you know defund uh or um the
Carter
26:23
npr label yeah and and put the label on npr that it was a government funded entity and the conservatives gleefully jumped onto that as you know oh look at this One of our heroes has attacked public media, and we're going to use this opportunity to define ourselves. Well, I'll
Carter
26:41
I'll let you guys in on a little secret. As a Tesla owner, I'm not sure that people really like Elon Musk right now.
Carter
26:49
He's seen to be kind of going off the loopy end. The hyper
Carter
27:00
So good. good and you know when people hear that live show your warm-up of the live show was fantastic i don't think we told you i don't think we told the warm
Corey
27:08
warm-up doesn't actually get posted so oh
Corey
27:12
yeah okay well that's fine well fuck them then
Carter
27:13
then i guess they should have been there yeah anyways i think that the the most important part of this whole thing is people
Carter
27:21
people don't like assholes Corey was saying that, um, it is super duper hard to character carry that, that persona through, um, without it being misinterpreted and, you know, the fighting for you side of this, uh, I think it's just being overwhelmed by the, uh, I'm a prick side of this. So that, that's where, that's how I think people are going to remember this moment. That's how I think that people are going to remember Pierre. And I think that that's how people are going to think about their votes. Do I really want to vote for that prick?
Zain
27:56
Do you, and this is taking us off base, but I've never cared before. Do you feel like Pierre's fault here is that he thinks every conversation is a debate rather than a conversation of persuasion or rhetoric? And that might sound way too academic, but it seems like that seems to be like a reflex. Corey, you talk about reflex. reflex yeah
Zain
28:18
do you feel like that is perhaps a a now i'm just maybe i'll use it as analysis of the situation do you feel like that could be an achilles heel if if you do agree with at least portions of what i'm trying to yeah
Corey
28:28
yeah you know that really speaks to me zane because i do presentation training and one of the things i tell people in like when i'm talking to them about what i call a contentious communications where it's either an interrogation or a debate right yeah
Corey
28:41
is that a debate is for the benefit of the observer, not the participant, right?
Corey
28:47
And so what you're always trying to do is play to a general audience. It's like you're a gladiator in Rome. You're not actually, if you're in an actual argument with somebody, the odds of them actually changing their mind on the spot are super low. They might change their mind a week later. They might find a way to modify their views so they're a little closer to your views if you've convinced them in certain ways like debates do work over the long term but in the short term they don't so you've always sort of got to keep in your mind i am you know i win the debate by staying focused on my point and presenting myself as i want to be presented not by scoring the most points with the individual right like it's not a boxing match where you're trying to take somebody down you're not getting scored on a card it's the overall feeling that you provide to the person who's watching it the last thing you want is people shuffling uncomfortably in their seats you know I was saying on Twitter, and this was about a different Pierre Polyev thing that maybe we'll get to, is you don't want to act like somebody that you feel deeply uncomfortable being stuck in an elevator with. You don't want to act like somebody that would make you get off a bus a stop early because you just feel deeply uncomfortable in their presence as they're going on and being such a jerk. And he's trending dangerously into that territory for some people. If you get off the bus a stop early, you're never going to hear the point. And that's the challenge that Pierre Polyev has right now.
Carter
30:06
I think that's a great analogy. Really, really solid.
Zain
30:10
I'm going to move it on to our next one. Fine, fabulous, or fucked. Justin Trudeau talking to a young protester, a PPC supporter, I believe outside of U of M, where the guy kind of talks to him about his stance on abortion, saying that he's pro-life. Justin Trudeau questions him in the moment, engages him, asks him why. um this guy you know really doesn't have many answers uh many people kind of praising the prime minister for taking the question for engaging in the conversation for engaging in the debate but
Zain
30:45
but carter i want to know what marks you're giving to the prime minister is this fine is this fabulous or is this fucked uh the prime minister engaging with clearly an antagonist of a character uh knowing that it's fully recorded and perhaps
Zain
30:59
perhaps scoring some points out of it what What do you think? I
Carter
31:01
I mean, let's talk. I mean, it's fine. Let me just start there. It's absolutely fine. It's
Zain
31:06
It's not fabulous for you.
Carter
31:06
you. No, it's not fabulous for me. He won. Interesting. Let's go back to who he won back over. He won over the people who already liked him.
Carter
31:14
It wasn't like you saw on Twitter or any any other medium. People all of a sudden going, holy shit, you know what? I think the prime minister has made a really good point about abortion. And I think I've changed my mind. I have fundamentally been wrong about this issue for my entire life. And because I saw the prime minister speak, I
Carter
31:33
don't know, I'm going to say kindly to this young man, patiently and kindly and openly. I've changed my mind on abortion. No one thought that the people who loved what Justin Trudeau did were the people who were already on his side on this issue for showing that youngster the path of the way. right like this this is the way we're we're the freaking mandalorian now that's all he did is is speak in a way that that
Carter
32:03
gave that audience the positive juju i mean they loved it great great for them all
Carter
32:09
all all in all for it but that's it wasn't actually um
Carter
32:13
um something that that changed people's minds it just was not it was good it was fine it wasn't fucked but it was never going to to be in a position where you know
Carter
32:25
know anything else happened that that was the best case scenario for him is to get the people who are already on his side quite
Zain
32:32
quite this video all over twitter um trudeau engaging with this u of m seems like students um on on pro-life pro-choice policies your take on this fine fabulous or fucked for trudeau and why i'm very curious in the why for for each of you yeah
Corey
32:46
yeah for me i mean i find a hard time giving anything a fabulous or a fucked at at sort of the doldrum moments we are in federal politics like it doesn't super matter but i think this is fabulous and it's because of the contrast it provides with pierre pauliev if this was happening in a vacuum on a normal week it would be fine right but the idea that you have in the span of like three days the prime minister doing this and pierre pauliev fighting with a journalist and pierre pauliev sending out a snotty letter to the governor general or the former governor Governor General.
Corey
33:18
It just provides contrast and contrast is very important in politics, not to get too basic about it here. And the way that he talked
Corey
33:28
talked to the young man, the way that he offered his time when he really didn't, and there were a hundred ways he could have gotten out of that. Although, by the way, what a Trudeau thing to do. Like Pierre Elliott Trudeau did this too. The famous, why should I sell you your wheat was when he stopped and he was talking to people, I believe outside of, you know, the stampede grounds in Calgary, but I might be mistaken on that. And, um, and that it is, it is kind of like the classic Trudeau move, but it was really powerful in the sense that it provided that contrast. So you talk about not wanting to be stuck in an elevator with Pierre Poliev and the way he was acting, you
Corey
34:06
you kind of feel like if you were in a rough situation with Justin Trudeau, it wouldn't be that rough. Like he would be able able to manage himself and stay temperate and moderate and um
Corey
34:15
um the old cliche about the who'd you rather have a beer with just based on the events we've talked about right here i mean does anybody have any debate and it's the contrast that i think makes it fabulous hmm
Corey
34:26
carter any retort to that and i guess i've got
Zain
34:27
got a follow-up if you don't have a retort no
Carter
34:29
no i mean he's
Zain
34:30
he's got no retort okay i
Carter
34:31
i don't disagree i mean it's sure he he looks good compared to pierre but
Carter
34:36
uh pierre polyev not pierre his father but
Carter
34:39
but i just don't i think that the i
Carter
34:43
think he looks good to the people that he already looked good to i'm not sure that he looks good to the people who uh question him or doubt him well
Corey
34:52
well i will say this it's
Corey
34:54
it's not as though it was like um ali frazier right i mean this is this is a man who's been prime minister for years literally does this for a living versus is like a young man who was way ahead of his skis. Yeah. I did not come in with the facts, got absolutely politely, but clobbered because of that. And so like, let's not, you know, he won a debate with a guy who is young and unprepared. It's
Carter
35:21
It's like me winning a debate with you, Corey. There's no points.
Carter
35:25
There's no points. I'm going to win anyways. So we don't count it as a point.
Zain
35:30
I just want to let you know that if you want to fly Bonza, they don't actually let you book on the web. You have to download an app. And that, to me, seems like some real friction they're adding to their booking process that our friends at Flair Airlines need to get on. Flair, please make your ability to book a flight app only. It would really, yeah, it's too easy right now. It's too easy to book a couple's date on the tarmac, and we need to make that harder. I want to talk to you about two things here that I think are interesting.
Zain
35:58
fact, can I talk about the young man for a second? I
Zain
36:01
I don't know who that is. I don't
Carter
36:01
don't know if you know this, but you're in charge of the whole fucking show. So go where you want to go.
Zain
36:06
know there's a phrase in politics cory have you heard this uh strong uh strong opinions loosely held um
Corey
36:12
um yeah no it's similar to something i like to say which is act sure be uncertain right and
Zain
36:18
and and it's it's one of the the mantras of or the organizing the organizers in politics which is it gives people hope right like most people present strongly but once you motivationally interview them or you deep canvas them which are like two organizer techniques which are people use at the doors that you can actually persuade them and to me the reason if i were to answer this question i thought this was fabulous is that this was kind of textbook in both cases prime minister kind of like questioning someone their cognitive dissonance and being like how deep do you is your commitment here and you realize that's actually quite shaky so proving you know one of that and also the way he kind of conducted the conversation i thought that was quite interesting carter like and maybe the question i have for you guys is is do you feel And this is just one example. But do you feel like for those that organize, that try to persuade, that try to mobilize people, this kind of provides a window into what that interaction looks like at the doors when you're trying to convince people in some way? And you might think this is a stretch and I should move the fuck on, but I found this quite textbook in some ways of what you try to teach an organizer around a difficult person who's got an opinion that you might be able to... You know, they might take a while to Corey's point around getting around to it and seeing that they're actually don't have a very strong, robust system of thought around what they believe. But it dislodges someone, maybe even momentarily. Just any thoughts on that before I move on to the other questions? I mean,
Carter
37:37
mean, the whole deep canvassing thing, I think that it has been proven to be the only thing that actually will shape someone's overall opinion. And Corey's made the point, you know, you can change someone's opinion. That is something that can happen. But it does come with an awful lot of steps to get through. I mean, you have to identify the political, you know, the political leadings, how tightly they're associated with their cohort. Is this, you know, this isn't, it
Carter
38:01
it is so much theory that I just can't give the Prime Minister of Canada this idea that he is modeling excellent canvassing technique. i think he just took an opportunity to school someone and that's
Carter
38:17
that's okay i think that's fine but i don't think it's much more than that i'm not going to be looking for this to be in
Carter
38:23
in the liberal uh handouts on how to how to manage uh difficult people um you
Carter
38:31
you know i expect in fact this podcast to be more more likely referred to with my relationship with cory okay
Zain
38:40
Any comments on that before I move on? Although I have one more final strategy question on this, on the Trudeau moment. I'll
Corey
38:46
I'll tell you this. Deep canvassing is interesting to me. The thing about all politics is it's an ever-shifting landscape. And for decades now, the conventional wisdom has been the purpose of going to the doors, the purpose of canvassing is identify votes, get off the door if it's somebody who's not in agreement with you, because you've just got to go out, you've got to find the votes, you've got to pull them on election day. But we are seeing a shift, I think, in the past 10 years where people are starting to say, wow, that's super shallow. And maybe in the long term, that's not a productive strategy. Maybe we do need to make the investments in time to try to persuade people of our arguments and move them forward. And you're seeing more investments in that. But it's hard to do at scale. And one of the things that was interesting about this particular moment is if you were to watch it, now the trick is you'd have to get somebody to watch it who holds those those beliefs but it could almost be a proxy that you could sit there and be an observer for and yes and maybe like not quote unquote learn from it zane maybe i don't i don't go that far but it's something that you could say wow
Corey
39:47
wow this is sort of like if i was at the door having this conversation and i'm getting to see this conversation play out in a more thoughtful way than i normally do in politics and i think there's some value in that and i do wonder if politics isn't going to start drifting back towards a little bit more long form after we've We've had like this high-calorie, low-nutrition politics for so, so long.
Zain
40:07
Six, 15 seconds content, you know, of just mobilization, pure mobilization, pure identification. Give us your email. Like that version of politics. Who cares about creating a movement that makes you feel good? Just transact with us. Sort of version, an era that we're in.
Zain
40:23
getting out of. And
Corey
40:24
And one of the things that I think that this, I mean, I don't want to pick on this young man. But one of the things that it highlighted is that when you're fed that high sugar, low nutrition diet, like there's nothing there and you crash just like a sugar crash. And the prime minister really exposed the superficiality, I think, of some of these views. And over time, I think there's a window. I don't recommend you do it in a 28-day campaign right now, for example, like if you're an Alberta campaigner. But I do think that there's an opportunity over time to start saying, all
Corey
40:57
all right, these very strong, loosely held views, but I would maybe say even not loosely held, but loosely constructed, superficially constructed views, maybe that's an immense opportunity. Maybe that's an immense opportunity to go in and have these long-form discussions and start shifting these viewpoints, because if one side is being that shallow and that easily debunked, all
Corey
41:21
all warfare is based on asymmetry, and maybe that's the next big opportunity in politics.
Zain
41:26
carter i'm gonna i'm gonna start with you on our next one sure it's here carter after a long long wait and you could tell why they took a while because
Zain
41:36
because they have constructed the
Zain
41:38
the best political logo of all time stephen carter bc united bcu it is here and i know this is an audio medium but go right wherever you are on your phone don't pause the podcast because you can do more more than two things that weren't. The BC Liberals are now BC United and Stephen Carter, they have a new logo. A small BC, a giant U, and then what looks like two wings of a bird. Stephen Carter, fine, fabulous, or fuck, the new BC United logo.
Zain
42:08
logo. And there's a conversation I want to have here, and I will have it with you in a second.
Carter
42:10
Well, let me begin by saying there is nothing easier in the world to do than to pick on somebody else's creative.
Carter
42:19
on the other side of
Corey
42:20
of it so i feel like this is fair game
Carter
42:22
game you are able to sit there without the uh without the trials and tribulations of having a focus group without the trial you don't have
Corey
42:30
have the brief you
Carter
42:31
you don't you don't know what they were asked to produce you don't know what the the over you know what the pressures were within the organization to come up with this but um
Zain
42:39
um here comes the but here
Zain
42:41
here comes the but but
Carter
42:42
but it's pretty weak it's
Carter
42:45
it's pretty now i will go on record and and And our good friend Katie Merrifield will come and find me and probably dismember me because she's that kind of angry. But I think that BC United was a bad name choice. And I think that when you put yourself into that, it is going to be difficult to create anything
Carter
43:05
anything but a soccer logo. And that, for better or for worse, or rightly or wrongly, is how I associate the BC United thing. I think it's going
Carter
43:15
to be really hard to use. I mean, just moving past the, I don't like the design.
Carter
43:20
It's a question of usability. It's a question of how does it fit on a page? How is it going to be used? And I think when I look at it, it strikes me as a difficult to use logo in
Carter
43:34
models or most formats.
Carter
43:36
I think it would be hard to incorporate into a brochure. And Corey, if you disagree, I'd love to hear your practical take as a more on the ground communicator. But I'm looking at it thinking, how would I use that in a brochure? What does it look like in a brochure? What does it look like in the various mediums in the electronic age? What does it look like? Like, all we've seen is essentially a bad print reproduction of it. And I'm just not sure that I'm getting how
Carter
44:05
how it's supposed to be used or how it's supposed to be seen in
Carter
44:09
in the wild, if you will, in the wild. And with that, I'll throw it over to the professional communicator, Mr. Corey Hogan.
Zain
44:19
Okay. Are you hosting the show now? That was very weird. Well,
Carter
44:21
Well, sometimes. Sometimes I'm really, you know, I'm a tool that can be used.
Zain
44:27
used. I've missed zero shows. I need you to know I've missed
Carter
44:31
missed a grand total of zero shows. And I think I speak for all the listeners, a giant pain in our ass. But, you know, thanks for coming again today, Zane. So thank you for being here.
Zain
44:40
We both know I'm better than this podcast.
Zain
44:43
Yeah, exactly. Corey, I ask you, BCU, is it working for you? And what classes will you be taking in your junior year at BCU? So those questions together, fine, fabulous, or fucked?
Corey
44:56
yeah um look i think that it
Corey
44:59
is a end of the road product and if you don't like the name bc united you're probably going to have a problem with the logo you're you're building on top of things and if you have challenges with the things you're building on top of you're not going to be happy with the top of the pyramid that's a reality and i think some of the reaction has to be assessed as people still reacting to the name bc united there are a couple of things that i can tell you from a a technical point of view i'm not super wild about the font weight of the bc versus the u is a bit of a challenge to me but in terms of usability on various products i think it's okay because there is a version of it where the whole word united is spelled out so you get this version that's more horizontal than vertical which will be good for lectern signage you've got the version that's roughly same horizontal or vertical so it's a bit of a square you can use that in a number of of social media context. And ultimately, it's pretty easy to imagine that being used in a one color setting or in the full color setting that we've seen presented with something approximating red and something approximating blue. And you can understand the symbolism of those two coming together, the idea of liberals and conservatives in British Columbia coming together to take
Corey
46:08
take on the NDP, the orange, right? So I get it all. And I actually think it's technically fairly fairly competent work but for that concern i have with the the difference in the weights between the bc and the u which is a little unavoidable given the the longer term context it has there but the
Corey
46:26
the more important point i want to make here is
Corey
46:29
is these logos don't fucking matter i can think of exactly one time in my entire life where i thought the logo may have played a part in the political victory and i'll bet you you two instantly thought of the exact same one which
Corey
46:44
which is the obama logo oh
Carter
46:45
i thought of the green liberal logo sorry that was my bad green
Corey
46:49
green shift yeah the
Corey
46:51
the green shift no no he's thinking of a different one in alberta yeah zane but like on
Zain
46:56
on the green shift no i just want to let you know about the green shift no it's good what was the line the d online okay go ahead keep
Corey
47:01
but but logos like ultimately well you want to build an overall aesthetic for the campaign people
Corey
47:07
people don't like if i think about political parties right now now our listenership is pretty keyed in but sit and say like all right what is the listen listeners in alberta what is the liberal logo don't know but you know the color's red and you know the name's liberal like brand is a lot bigger than logo and uh ultimately the logos that political parties create is are pretty fucking ephemeral and they hinge brand on different things like in politics It's much more about color than logo, and you just don't need to worry about it that much. The main thing you want to do is not make something that's laughable, like the green liberal logo that Stephen Carter was just referencing.
Zain
47:45
Yeah, the provincial one. I could get into an entire conversation if the political parties themselves should be more ephemeral, but I won't be doing that because, Stephen Carter, I need to move on. I'm going to start with Corey on this one. I'm looking up
Carter
47:54
up ephemeral. Hang on. Just give me a second.
Zain
47:57
Yeah. Corey, I'm going to read you a letter. I'm just going to read you a letter. The entirety of it? Because that could take a long time. I think I have time. Oh, okay. I think I have time.
Zain
48:06
Dear quote-unquote rapporteur, explain
Zain
48:08
explain this. How will you investigate Beijing's donation to the Trudeau Foundation when you were part of the Trudeau Foundation? Awaiting your answer, Pierre Polyev.
Zain
48:19
Fine, fabulous, or fucked, Corey Hogan. I read the entirety of that letter, by the way, if you did not know and had not read this letter before. That's a letter from Pierre Polyev to David Johnston, former governor general, now the special rapporteur on the Beijing interference. uh story fine fabulous or fucked the pierre strategy here this might seem similar to the cbc conversation it might not i've split it up for that reason and mainly because the smile on steven carter's face when i asked cory fine fabulous or fucked on this particular one for pierre yeah
Corey
48:51
yeah again like individually well this one's closer to fucked for a couple of reasons but like i think ultimately you you didn't read the whole letter because one of the things you missed off the top was like the two line which is basically special rapporteur ottawa right like it's not a real letter it's like it's a shitty social media david
Zain
49:10
david john's special rapporteur ottawa ontario that's yeah that's
Corey
49:13
that's right like it's it doesn't even say like delivered via email or anything like that apparently he did send this i'm sure when falling up yeah of course but you know it it was designed as a social media piece first it was not designed as a letter and then Then released on social media. That is evidently clear. And again, it has that same very grating tone. And at one point, conservatives were the ones who were supposed to support tradition and respectfulness and decorum and politics. politics and i mean what the hell happened here that a governor general appointed by a conservative by stephen harper is being called dear quote rapporteur not the right honorable david johnson yeah right or or something like that it's just designed to be kind of shitty and again
Corey
50:00
not a not a bad point not a bad point that if this thing does drift into beijing was trying Trying to influence the government through the Trudeau Foundation. Yes, that's not really a thing, but it's kind of a thing for the reasons I said earlier. What is David Johnson supposed to do if he was himself involved in it? But I think there's a way he could have made that point. And even in a way that was social media digestible, that was less likely to have, in
Corey
50:25
in some ways, I think of myself as the perfect audience here. I agree with the overall point that David Johnson probably raises more questions because of those connections over time. And it's just not what you need in somebody who's investigating this, right? I
Corey
50:40
I can't find myself agreeing with Pierre Poliev's tactics here. And they kind of, they grate on me. And they make me want to defend David Johnson's, you know, posting to this particular role. and i think that uh well that focus group of one is not something that should be over interpreted i just have a hard time believing that he's not turning some people off who would otherwise be with him with these particular approaches and i don't think like the group that it speaks to is already with him so i just i don't get it cory
Zain
51:14
carter i'm coming oh no
Carter
51:15
no it's all just do you do you
Zain
51:17
you let me use your product and packaging well that's generally no i'm
Zain
51:21
What's new? Corey, product and packaging, right? Good framing, good device. Product you agree with, packaging you hate, right? Fair to say, again. Sure. Do
Zain
51:32
Do you feel like Pierre is one of those political candidates that you're just like, in order to get what
Zain
51:37
what you get with him, it has to be both. You have to, no one will be clearly defined the product as well as he can if it doesn't come with the type of packaging. Or do you feel like his code switching in the past has indicated to you that it is possible for him to have a different muscle i
Corey
51:52
think it's i think he can do it i think he has shown time and time again that he actually has the ability to speak in a way that canadians will find pretty practical and and resonates when he talks about affordable housing and you know some of the approaches he wants to take they're very sensible when he talks about finances i disagree with him on a technical point of view but it sure sounds okay even when he gets into the idea of canada being broken he says it in ways that i think will resonate with people but it's when he goes like like, into
Corey
52:20
into kind of this, people keep saying, like, campus conservative mode. I think campus conservatives are much more sophisticated than that, right? I think it's just, like,
Corey
52:30
the way you talk when you're just being a shitheel with your friends, right? And, like, again, I think he's just pulling that into the audience a little bit more. And, yeah, I don't, I don't know. He, like, the
Corey
52:43
the packaging matters. There are great products that die for packaging purposes. And that's the path that he's on if he continues to present in this way.
Zain
52:52
same question to you. The letter, fine, fabulous, or fucked in your mind from
Zain
52:56
from a pure strategy perspective? I
Carter
52:58
I think it's fucked. I mean, I think, I
Carter
53:01
I mean, I'm sure that there are a group of people who are cheering his attack upon this partisan appointment, cheering his petulance around this, but I just don't think that it's it's a very large number. I think that most
Carter
53:17
most Canadians, to Corey's earlier point, aren't this petulant. And when we are met with this level of petulance, we actually recoil. This is way too American for us. I don't feel comfortable. I don't feel comfortable with this. And I think that that's how it's going to be received. I just don't feel comfortable with this. And and it
Carter
53:41
it also gives the other side motivation it's the equivalent of you
Carter
53:46
know the the really bad quote that's then put up on the opposition's team's locker room you know so
Carter
53:55
up pops this thing and somebody has said something utterly ridiculous and the opposing coach grabs it puts it on the on the bulletin board and says this is what we're we're playing for kids and
Carter
54:08
and you know i mean does it work every time no i mean sometimes the the person putting it on the bulletin board may lose but it does work more often than not and why would you give um your opposition this type of what do they call it bulletin board material um so i mean i'm big in the sports i mean you guys know that oh
Zain
54:31
bulletin board material is absolutely a
Zain
54:33
professional sports term. Yeah,
Carter
54:35
Yeah, I think it is. I'm reading Moneyball right now. And I think
Carter
54:39
think that that's right. I think that that's what they call it. Anyways, my point being that I think that this is just why
Carter
54:44
why be petulant when
Carter
54:46
when it's going to take away from your point. If being petulant is all you got, if you have to kind of do this, Corey and I talked about process versus issue versus outrage. This was trying to be a process thing that
Carter
55:02
that turned into an outrage thing. And I just think that it
Carter
55:05
doesn't make much sense to me. I just think he's pissed away some
Carter
55:08
some really interesting capital, but that's who this guy is.
Zain
55:13
Corey, finish us off on this and I'll go with my final fine, fabulous or fucked question.
Corey
55:16
Yeah, I really want a plus one, Stephen's comments. I think this had an opportunity if Pierre Poliev had played this differently to actually be deeply demoralizing for the liberals, because he would have had a point. He would have had a really strong, difficult to rebut point. delivered in a way that was more statesman-like it it might have caused morale challenges but now it just becomes so easy to say look
Corey
55:39
look at this guy uh you know i know what side i'm on still i can now look past these these clear imperfections in the appointment of david johnston because the other guy is such a jerk about it this is a former governor general look
Corey
55:52
look at how he's treated like do we want canada represented by a guy who looks like i mean these are the conversations you can now have and you can get all riled up in the locker room like steven carter said and and uh you know that's that is a missed opportunity for pierre poliev because i don't think he gained enough on the other side by animating his base to undo the damage he had in like also animating the other base and turning off the middle carter
Zain
56:18
carter no morale challenges today at our sponsor because they're getting a new 737 it's coming home not our
Zain
56:23
sponsor but yeah it's coming home it's coming It's coming home. And soon with their app-only booking system. Oh, my goodness. We're going to have the future is
Carter
56:32
is here. You know where our next live show is going to be?
Zain
56:35
Well, I'm... Is it Australia? It's
Carter
56:37
It's going to be... Is it Australia? No, it's going to be on that 737.
Zain
56:41
Because... We have to make that happen. I
Carter
56:43
I think that they'll actually take less of the ticket price.
Carter
56:49
the ticket price, what they're taking from us is just killing us all the time. It's killing us. Do
Zain
56:54
Do you want to get into that? Do you want to get into the unit economics of the live show?
Carter
56:56
I'm like, I'm looking at the numbers, right? I'm looking at the numbers. I'm like, holy fuck, we have made so much money. And then I just got the reconciliation. And anyways, you guys owe me some cash. So I'll send you a note on how much each of you owe. But this didn't work out. It's wonderful,
Carter
57:17
I may have miscalculated on how many tickets we needed to sell to hit a break even. Anyways, I'm sure it'll be fine. I
Zain
57:24
I actually don't know if he's joking at this point. I mean... I kind of want to have a sidebar to discuss this. Anyways,
Zain
57:29
apologies. I've already spent the money. I've already spent the money. On
Zain
57:34
Corey, fine, fabulous, or fucked, I'm going to start with you on this one. Katie Telford testifying today on foreign interference. She's speaking about the nature of foreign interference at the Procedures and House Affairs Committee. committee, many times saying she can't get into it, that it's not something she can talk about, that she can't speak to specifics, testifies for two hours. Overall, you know, seems to have a bit of a mixed bag. Some people frustrated about a lack of specifics. Doesn't seem to be any smoking gun, at least from the early hours of analysis that we are seeing right now. For the liberal government, fine, fabulous, or fucked overall? Does this change anything from your perspective? What do you think? And we talked about some advice to her last Sunday, heading into today. Fine, fabulous, we're fucked.
Corey
58:23
I think it's fine. When you're going to a committee sitting like this, the job number one is just not to create an immediate disaster for yourself, right? And so mission accomplished. I do think there were probably some optimizations that were available. The way that she brushed off the comments, you know, and said, like, this is a national security matter, seemed fine, at least in the clips that I saw, could have maybe been stronger and said, and been taken more of that approach of being like, I would love to answer and there's other avenues in which I can answer. Maybe she did that in some of the answers. I didn't watch the full footage, so I'm just going to fully confess on that. that i do wonder if she hasn't set a couple of small traps for the liberals down the road her comment that the prime minister reads everything that is put in front of them right
Corey
59:08
right i mean everything's a lot of things right and there is actually
Zain
59:11
actually when some of those things yeah exactly
Zain
59:14
not have right well
Corey
59:14
well and there's the possibility that there is then a document that will be very difficult to deny because of that commentary at that particular moment to
Corey
59:23
to be determined we just don't know yet right uh but ultimately fine is the only answer i can give it at 3 p.m on uh on friday mountain time because we there just hasn't been enough time for people to go through and catch those kind of like next order challenges that may exist you know the comments haven't been fact-checked i guess is what i would say carter
Zain
59:44
carter same question to you it's almost a bit of a hot take a relatively speedy analysis but fine fabulous or fucked in your mind what you're seeing thus far emerge from katie telford's uh testimony at the committee absolutely
Carter
59:56
absolutely fine and really begs the question um
Carter
1:00:01
did they oppose it so much um you know that's
Corey
1:00:04
that's a great point she
Carter
1:00:05
she you know this is a this is a liberal party that fought this like tooth and nail like it would it would undo the state of the country if
Carter
1:00:13
if katie telford was forced uh to testify in front of this particular committee and i
Corey
1:00:18
i don't know i think she did fine you
Carter
1:00:20
you know i've always thought I thought she would do fine. I have tremendous time for Katie Telford. I think that she's ridiculously smart. I think that she's absolutely capable and able. And I think she performed adequately at the very least. So why
Carter
1:00:34
why did you put yourself in such a pickle? I just don't understand. That to me is the ultimate question that I would have for the liberals. You were going to do just fine.
Carter
1:00:44
Why'd you fight it tooth and nail?
Zain
1:00:47
mail carter i'm going to move on to our final segment over under our lightning round i'm almost out of energy you know time for my app nap like
Zain
1:00:54
like what the hell it sounds sounds about right uh and one organization that's already taken its nap early from twitter is npr stephen carter after elon musk has put government-funded labels on on npr as a state-affiliated media Media, a label that has been attached to it. NPR, I'm sorry, is saying that it's done. It's quitting Twitter over the social media company's recent actions. Are you in or out, Stephen Carter? I'm
Zain
1:01:21
I'm going to talk to you about NPR's perspective. Are you in or out on NPR saying, fuck this, we're out? I
Carter
1:01:26
I am so in. I wish I had the internal strength to do it. I
Carter
1:01:29
I don't. I'm weak. Allow people to make fun of me as required, but I'm still on that hellfire of a website and I disappoint myself constantly that I'm still there because I wish I had the fortitude just to say this
Carter
1:01:47
this is a bad medium going a bad direction under leadership that is a
Carter
1:01:54
a joke. I'm very in.
Zain
1:01:58
Corey, they changed state-funded media to government-funded media. NPR still did not care. They are still off the platform. Are you in or are you out on NPR saying goodbye?
Corey
1:02:09
Yeah, I think I'm in. I don't think that Twitter – Twitter is obviously an important channel for a lot of newshounds who are going out, finding the story, seeing things breaking.
Corey
1:02:19
NPR, at least, was never my breaking news source. I'm not really sure that their general format is something that, like, required them to be on Twitter the way some other state media might need to be. Just kidding there. But, you know, the reality is they also said – they did it for, I think, very principled reasons. They make a pretty compelling case that they are not state-funded. Only about 1% of their budget, I believe, comes directly from government. There's some indirect money that comes in there, too. but it if they are state funded basically every outlet in canada is state funded because of the way that we support media in this country everything from post media to cbc so i don't think that they were wrong and it's nice when you can take a principled stance and you're not wrong um maybe the start of something maybe not i don't know if there's other shoes to drop i certainly I certainly could imagine other outlets being
Corey
1:03:13
being forced into the same position and saying, I'm just not interested in having you attack our integrity like that. But as for me, I have to stay on Twitter as long as Stephen's on Twitter because I need to clean up the things that he
Corey
1:03:25
as soon as he leaves Twitter, I'll leave Twitter. Speaking
Carter
1:03:27
Speaking of which, could someone send to me the password again? Because there was some stuff put up about proportional representation that I completely disagree with. The
Zain
1:03:36
The password is ChucklesTheClown, all in lowercase. You are welcome for that succession, Reverend
Carter
1:03:41
Thank you very much.
Zain
1:03:42
I'm going to move on to our next over-under lightning round question. I'm going to start with you, Corey, because we do this for you. I don't know if you know this. Hang on. It's always good to be here. Pierre Polyev. We talked about the Trudeau Foundation. We talked about Pierre Polyev. Well, there's another chapter. Polyev is now asking the CRA to audit the Trudeau Foundation over donations connected to foreign governments. In or out on Pierre, continue to stoke the flames. He did the letter that we talked about, and now he's asking the CRA to audit, in or out, on his continued assault on the Trudeau Foundation. Is it good strategy, and are you in on it?
Corey
1:04:15
I think, unfortunately, it probably is good strategy because it continues to conflate the matter. But, you know, in a way, it's like, if the name wasn't Trudeau Foundation, it would be just throwing a wild haymaker towards another organization, to Stevens. Yes, it would.
Zain
1:04:28
would. It'd be really weird to go, like, sharp elbows at a nonprofit, or in any case, I don't know if they're a charity. I believe, I guess it would have to be. Yeah, of course. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So good point.
Corey
1:04:37
But, you know, it just continues to muddy the waters around there. And, you
Corey
1:04:44
I mean, it's exhausting, but it's not a bad strategy.
Zain
1:04:50
Carter, in or out on the strategy?
Zain
1:04:53
CRA, investigate the Trudeau Foundation from your perspective. What do you think?
Carter
1:04:56
I'm out. I mean, what are you going to—I mean, sure, investigate it. But I think that there
Carter
1:04:59
there are an awful lot of charities. There are an awful lot of places that actually could use
Carter
1:05:04
use a little bit of a clean sweep. I'm not sure that the CRA needs to be pointed
Carter
1:05:10
pointed in this direction when there are many, many different directions to be pointed.
Zain
1:05:15
Final question for you, Carter. I'm going to start with you. The federal government is offering to buy the street in front of Parliament Hill that's been closed since the Freedom Convoy. The feds want to see this street in front of Parliament Hill that's closed in a letter to the mayor. procurement minister says the government wants to reimagine the parliamentary precinct and keep the Wellington Street closed to traffic. Are you in or out for the feds being like, fuck it, we'll just buy this land that's now been closed. We'll just buy this street. We'll make this our own, maybe to avoid another freedom convoy, maybe to kind of make things move forward. Strong opinions on this, Stephen Carter, in or out? I'm
Carter
1:05:50
I'm in. I mean, what the hell? I mean, we've been down to Washington a number of times. We've walked up and down Pennsylvania Avenue looking at the White House. It's kind of nice that we're not going to get hit by a car, uh, while we're doing that. And, uh, you
Carter
1:06:03
you know, I think that number of tour groups alone, they go up and down that space. I think it justifies having, uh, you know, a pedestrian friendly area. I think that the re-imagining of that space would be, uh, really fantastic. Let's go for it. Car-free zone. I'm in.
Zain
1:06:20
Corey, in or out on the feds wanting to buy the street right in front of, uh, of, uh, Parliament Hill there.
Corey
1:06:27
Yeah, I think generally I'm in for the same reason Stephen's in, in that I generally like it when they close streets and turn them back to pedestrian areas, especially in the inner cities, which allow, you know, more mixed use than we currently see. And Wellington was always a bit annoying to me in that, you know, it had trucks parked with signs, you know, people trying to make their point on Parliament Hill in ways that were really quite in your
Corey
1:06:51
face. And it was always a bit crowded and a bit busy. And it will probably change for the better that entire feeling, that entire district. And lots of evidence that closing streets like that, people
Corey
1:07:02
people overestimate the traffic chaos it will create. And obviously, it's been closed for so long, people have already adjusted. So I think I'm in. Generally speaking, it's not because it's a reaction to the convoy. It's just I think it's good to close streets like that. But
Carter
1:07:17
But what about bike lanes? I hate bike lanes. People on bikes. Oh, sorry.
Zain
1:07:25
It's good. It is time for Stephen Carter's afternoon nap. And Corey and I will start snuggling
Zain
1:07:31
snuggling on the couch as we watch Love is Blind season finale. That's a wrap on episode 1049 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Veldtree. With me, as always, is Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we'll see you next time.
Carter
1:07:43
time. What the hell is Love is Blind?