Episode 1036: John Tory

Zain 0:02

This is a strategist episode 1036. My name is Zain Velji. With me as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter. Guys, long

Zain 0:10

long time since you sent me the link to the show. I was just like, what's going on? I was up in that spy balloon there hanging around for a couple months and they just shot me down. We were trying a new thing. We wanted to

Corey 0:22

to try something out. Yeah.

Zain 0:23

Yeah. No, that's good. That's good. And how did that go?

Zain 0:27

Not well, thank you. Yeah, No, I could tell by the silence of both of you that it did not go well. Carter, nice to see you. It seems like you have aged. What's the opposite of gracefully in my time?

Carter 0:39

time? Oh, quite a bit.

Carter 0:39

Significantly. I am not looking good. I feel horrible. Yep. Thanks. Good to see you again as well. I was out skiing yesterday. Skied with my daughter. And that's a mistake because she goes very fast. And I am fucking exhausted today.

Zain 0:57

Oh, good. I'm glad we haven't missed the beat, because the show is still terrible at the beginning. That's good. Corey, do you want to add to the... We kept that up for you. We kept that up for you. I'm glad you kept it up. Corey, do you want to add to the terribleness? No,

Corey 1:12

No, I'm just wondering how you're enjoying child ownership. How are you feeling about fatherhood? I'm

Zain 1:17

great. Kids raise themselves. I have no idea where this child is, and that's by design. So it's great. Yeah, and

Corey 1:24

and no worries, pal, because if there's crying in the background, it's not like we haven't been dealing with that with Stephen Carter during editing for ages, so it's okay.

Zain 1:31

okay. That's good. I also like to see that Stephen is the butt of all jokes still, so that is good. Anytime we have any content that we just can't land, we just turn it on you, Stephen.

Carter 1:41

It's pretty much normal. Just refer back to the

Zain 1:42

the aging poorly joke that I made as

Zain 1:45

as a life raft for myself.

Carter 1:47

Yeah, no, it's all good. It's good to have you back, Zane. I'm starting to develop an ego, and it's good to have that gone away. Thank you. here we're

Zain 1:54

we're gonna waste no time steven we're gonna waste no time cory we're gonna move it on we're gonna move it on to our first segment our first segment old white men fuck the younger generation that is right a tale as old as no it's it's you don't like it what did you expect you're getting soft on me cory welcome

Zain 2:14

welcome back yeah you are welcome you are welcome carter are we going to talk about it are we going to talk

Carter 2:18

talk about the resignation of

Carter 2:21

i thought you were were talking about something with me. I'm sorry.

Zain 2:24

Well, I will open it up to you, Carter, if you want.

Zain 2:28

don't want to talk about necessarily what John Tory did or did not do, but I think there's so many political questions as it relates to resigning. And Carter, the one I want to start with is John Tory comes out, for those that have not caught up to this story, on a Friday evening, not even afternoon, comes out on a Friday evening, declares that he has had an an inappropriate relationship with the staffer, which has now ended. He called it consensual. The staffer no longer works for his office as a political staffer, to be clear, a former political staffer. They decided to end it earlier this year, and he called it an error of judgment. He said, because of that, I'm stepping down as mayor.

Zain 3:06

Shock to the system.

Zain 3:08

But Carter, one of the things we have seen over the last number of years, thanks mainly perhaps to the Trump era, is that politicians can double down. Stephen Carter, you've been a fan of the double I'm not saying on this particular issue. Were you surprised that John Tory kind of took the lane that he did? And I want to talk about that a bit. And then I want to talk about some of the what goes on before a big political decision or a life altering political decisions. That's the heart of the conversation I want to have. But before we do that, let's talk about the specifics of Tory and the fact that he that he chose the resignation path versus the stick it out, double down. I made a mistake keeping

Zain 3:44

keeping this fucking gig path.

Carter 3:46

Well, I mean, I think that Trump showed us that just about anything is possible to survive. But Tory didn't even try. You know, he didn't wait the requisite two weeks after the story happened for him to be forced out of office. Instead, what he did is he stood up in front of a microphone in the press gallery at a very late hour. I think it was 8.30 or so in Toronto and

Carter 4:12

resigned. designed and that to me was was unexpected i would have expected you know one of the pieces of advice zane would be uh why don't we see how this lands why don't we see how this plays before you actually uh take a an action that is you know not

Carter 4:30

not reversible and and that's what resignation is it's not reversible action and

Zain 4:35

and let me add to a bit of context as car because you make a good point around it landing it in this case was a toronto star article that i failed to mention But a Toronto Star article was slowly catching steam, it seemed like, had multiple authors that were kind of constructing this piece and were putting this story out. Corey,

Zain 4:52

I'm on the basic metric of surprise, and that's all I'm kind of asking right now. Were you surprised you chose the lane of I'm leaving rather than I'm staying?

Corey 5:03

uh i guess yes and no let's start with the obvious no you don't need to look to donald trump for an example of a politician who held on during such scandals rob ford yeah

Corey 5:13

you know in 2013 fair enough just

Corey 5:16

just barraged by scandals they the council basically took over the mayor's powers and staff and gave them to the deputy mayor and he still held on he

Corey 5:25

he still held on because it's not actually that easy to get rid of a mayor if the mayor doesn't want to go And let's face it, John Tory was not the train wreck that Rob Ford was in the last years of his life. So on that certain level, I was surprised. But then when you think about that, that's perhaps the reason not to be that surprised. Because

Corey 5:42

John Tory's entire brand had been stable and boring. And it's not as though,

Corey 5:47

let's put it this way, Rob Ford acting like a cat has kind of costed into his very existence. distance uh but john tory the whole idea was

Corey 5:54

was supposed to be this stable boring fellow so what perhaps made it less survivable in his case even even curved for these times that we live in is that it's what he was supposed to be it's who he was supposed to be uh and what he was supposed to not be uh that that was led down

Zain 6:12

particular i'm going to come to you in a second cory this is interesting you're using the term was i find that interesting what he was supposed supposed to be was, what did you say? Boring, stable, right? Like a cocktail of those words. What part of you thinks that there's a bit of strategy to say that this is who he is rather than who he was? And what I mean by that is like brand preservation. Like maybe this guy's another chapter and in six months, him leaving rather than trying to fight it out and stay, even if he could have kept his job, still keeps that overall, I shouldn't say brand untarnished, but less tarnished. Like what part of you strategically kind of looks at it from that that ends if at all yeah

Corey 6:49

yeah no that's a great point and um you know another little bit of context here he just he rolled back into re-election he was oh he wanted to romp yeah

Zain 6:57

yeah and just a few months yeah just a few months yeah so

Corey 7:00

so very very i mean popular might be a stretch but certainly uh yeah i guess we'll say popular right

Corey 7:06

right certainly nobody thought that he anybody could take him on um and so yeah maybe this is a ability to preserve his brand maybe frankly this is just a reflection that the brand was more than just more than just bullshit because he acted the way politicians were supposed to act in times of yore when they had massive areas of judgment like this right and you know also let's be really clear this

Corey 7:30

this is also the the particular type of scandal is one that has become i think the public consciousness has become more attuned to in the last bit the power dynamics between you know a 68 year old mayor who has all of this authority and a 31-year-old political staffer that you know that's that's pretty gross on a lot of levels you know the last thing i want to throw on the table though is that he may have been running a strategy for different purposes too and one of them is trying to preserve kind of his family life his home life keeping the cameras out of his family uh keeping his marriage at least somewhat intact like there's a lot of things that go into a calculation like this beyond the political and he just decided that um this is the way you're supposed to act in this moment carter lots of reasons he might have done that talk

Zain 8:17

talk to me about this brand

Zain 8:19

brand preservation could have entered the equation whether it be brand preservation for the tory brand or whether it be for the perspective of trying to make a a boomerang back to some semblance of public life because let's not forget john tory has been in public life whether not as just mayor but like public life on the talk radio airwaves and such. Talk to me about this brand that he might be trying to preserve and which could have perhaps dictated the path that he eventually chose.

Carter 8:49

Well, I think that the only example that kind of pops into mind is Jim Prentice after he lost in 2015. He went right back into the corporate world immediately. And the corporate world is a, they certainly forgave Prentice the loss. I would imagine that John Tory's trying to think, will the corporate world forgive me my dalliance? And I think that, generally

Carter 9:13

generally speaking, they will. I think that if he acts perfectly from the point of time that this was discovered and moves forward, there's another act for John Tory returning to the corporate boardrooms of Canada. And I would imagine that he's quite used to that level of, of, uh, success and would want to hold onto it. So if you want to hold onto that, then he is acting exactly the right way. And Corey's also raised an interesting point that I think sometimes we take for granted and that his, he may actually want something really old fashioned, like his marriage to stay together. Um, you know, like it is one thing to be caught to be having an affair. It is another thing entirely to have that affair splashed across across the front pages of the Toronto Star and other national newspapers. That is a different type of humiliation. And I suspect that for him to save his marriage, it required immediate action. But I do think that both of those paths are the same path, right? You stick to, if you want to save your marriage, you get the hell out of office as soon as you can. If you want to be a corporate player, you get out of office and you make sure that you clean this up as best you possibly can. So I imagine that that's what he's doing.

Zain 10:30

Let's get into the strategy here, Carter. This is what I wanted to talk about, right? John Torrey, just like many times on this show, is just, you know, I'm not going to use him transactionally, but he is a case that we're going to eventually, in this case, ultimately study for our purposes of the strategy discussion. And the discussion I want to have is exactly the one you talked about, which is, is this mutually exclusive, Carter? Could John Tory, if he came to you and said, Carter, I fucked up, right? I really fucked up. You're his advisor, one of his principal advisors in that mayor's office. Carter, I fucked up.

Zain 11:01

I'm known as this person. I want to be known as this person. I know I'm going to take a dent. There's going to be a bit of a dip whether it comes out or not. But if brand preservation is primary to me, or even family preservation, can I have my cake and eat it too, Carter? Can I still keep this job as mayor of Toronto? A job that, by the way, I've got a lot of fucking capital with. I won handily. A lot of fucking people voted for me. Can I still keep this gig, preserve my brand? Is it possible? Or is it, as you just said in your previous answer, mutually exclusive? that if you want corporate, if you want brand preservation, you got to get the fuck out of this gig?

Carter 11:40

How would you have answered

Zain 11:41

answered the question that he would post to you in that way? Or even try to solve it for him in that way is the heart of my question.

Carter 11:47

I think that my first question to him would be, was this going to be your last term? Yes or no? And if it wasn't going to be his last term, and he still has a political ambition, then you could rewrite, you could keep him in office office and get him reelected in three years. I think that that would be possible. But I don't think you could get him reelected in three years and preserve his marriage and make him, you know, rehabilitate him for corporate life. It would be an all in on the political structure of you're going to be mayor for another eight years. We can do that for you. But what are your competing competing priorities. If your competing priorities are, I would like to stay married,

Carter 12:33

then that's a really tough one to include. If it is, I would like my brand to be in place for corporate gigs, that's going to be tricky. But if the answer is, we need to solely keep you in office for another seven years, eight years, then the answer is, yes, we can do that without you having to step down but your brand the brand is going to be severely tarnished the but severely tarnished brands win all the time all

Carter 13:04

all the time you mean you

Zain 13:06

you mean you mean actually win again all the time to be totally clear not just stay in office but can get re-elected give me an example like uh one doesn't come to mind but there's probably several i mean justin trudeau

Carter 13:19

trudeau has had Good example.

Zain 13:20

example. Blackface, brownface. T-minus 10 days before the election in some ways. Right.

Corey 13:25

Right. No, that is the perfect example for another reason I want to jump in here is because that was core to his brand. Like inclusivity. Being this compassionate individual. This person who was alert to those kinds of challenges in community and the way that racism was pervasive and that society needed to deal with these things systemically.

Corey 13:44

And then there's pictures of him in black and brown. The first EDI

Zain 13:46

EDI prime minister in many ways, right? Like the guy supporting all of it.

Zain 13:50

yet he got through it yet he got through it during during an election because

Carter 13:54

because you can get through it if you're because your

Carter 13:56

your supporters can can be

Carter 13:59

be convinced that this is part of your journey right

Carter 14:01

right this is part of your journey and you've come out the other side as a better person your

Carter 14:06

your supporters can be convinced of that now we'll never ever convince your detractors but we don't need to convince your detractors as we've mentioned he won by a landslide he was He was a relatively popular mayor in Toronto. This would have hurt him, but this is not career ending in the political sense, and especially with a three-year buildback. But he would have most likely lost his marriage. He would have most likely lost the ability to reenter the corporate boardrooms, which may have been more important to him, because you have to balance off all of these competing interests. You don't just get to say, well, I'd like to have my cake and eat it, too, to answer your question, which was, do you get to have your cake and eat it, too?

Zain 14:52

No, you don't. Corey Carter took seven minutes for an answer to just rather than just saying yes. But that is the beauty of this podcast, Carter.

Carter 14:59

Corey? Oh, my God. You've been off of it for so long.

Carter 15:02

You don't even remember. How would you have reacted to Carter?

Zain 15:03

Carter? If Carter was in that room, Carter was on that call, how would you have reacted to him if the mayor's question was, can I do both, guys? Can I preserve brand, you

Zain 15:13

you know, still keep my head above water on my personal life and still be mayor of the city? And we'll get to the fact that he wants to be mayor for a couple more days, by the way, which I think is hilarious. We'll get to all that stuff and the scuttlebutt and who becomes mayor next and strategy behind that. But on this, Corey, if you were on that call and that was the question posed to you, what would you have responded with?

Corey 15:34

Yeah, you know, it's an interesting question. I think that you

Corey 15:38

almost have to step back and put yourself in his spot at that moment. Toronto Star has this. There's going to be a story. You

Corey 15:45

You actually don't know the story. We don't know if this is the only story, I will just say, right? Like this is one instance. Are there others? Fuck me. I don't know. But like if there was one, it makes you think that it's possible it could have occurred at other times too. And so sometimes you will see politicians almost – overreact sounds like a funny thing to say. but you know they will react assuming the worst version of the story is coming right or that it could be coming at any time and then sometimes when it doesn't they start to say well maybe i didn't need to do that and you know maybe there's a little bit of doubt there but let's just say that the everything we know is kind of the sum of it there's there's not any other shoe to drop it is what it is yeah

Zain 16:23

yeah yeah that's a big assumption you know the whole conversation i agree it

Zain 16:26

is a big assumption it

Corey 16:27

it is but i think that there is a path forward in that scenario you

Corey 16:31

you do but it only It only works if this was like a absolute, I mean, we know it wasn't one time, one time, but if

Corey 16:40

singular, yes, a singular, a singular affair. Yeah.

Zain 16:45

Well, let's put it that way.

Corey 16:47

Then I think, again, thinking about his brand, thinking about all of those things, he steps up and he says, this

Corey 16:53

this was two errors in judgment. The first error in judgment was the act and the second was trying to conceal it. And I am deeply sorry to the people of Toronto for both. both i am i believe you know that you know this was consensual i'm under i'm aware of the power dynamics i'm aware of blah blah blah all of this i am taking a leave of absence power being invested in the deputy mayor until

Corey 17:14

such a time as the ethics commissioner

Corey 17:16

report on this and i think that's step one right because um it is not just about whether we think it's gross there will be questions about propriety on a more fundamental legal sense that you need to jump over you need to cross the hurdle on and so if you can get past that then i think that there's there's a way forward right but you could almost make it as though once again this is how you would have wanted doug

Corey 17:43

doug ford to act or sorry rob ford to act all these fords they blur

Carter 17:48

blur together everywhere like weeds

Corey 17:52

so the point being zane that you're not um it's

Corey 17:56

it's not that you're ignoring it you are are still presenting a point of contrast with rob ford

Corey 18:00

sure the point of contrast here you are acting in a more ethical upright honest fashion but you're not going so far as resignation yeah so you still got that contrast but you're just not going as far so maybe possible but it really requires no other shoes to yeah

Zain 18:13

yeah and a tight rope to walk carter can i ask you this

Zain 18:18

is a big career altering career ending conversation that that that john tory must must have had.

Zain 18:27

you give me some insight, in the broadest sense, around how politicians have these big conversations? I don't want to speculate about his situation, but I want to expand it more broadly. When these big decisions are made, are they made with a tight group, the broadest group of your key advisors? What have you seen in the past? Is it a one-person conversation? How are other people brought into the fold? Are they just told when they see it on camera? Just walk me through some of these mechanics that I'm personally curious about that I suspect listeners are curious about from what you've seen. You don't have to name names. You don't have to name scenarios or situations. But talk to me about how you have seen these conversations and these decision trees ultimately unfold behind

Carter 19:14

So I've never seen any big gathering that's pulled together with eight or six or whatever the numbers are.

Zain 19:21

Eight's huge. Six is huge. Okay. Oh,

Carter 19:23

Oh, yeah. That's massive. I think that this is usually two or three people. And most often when I've seen these decisions kind of being made that are career altering, they're often made by the individual. And then the individual informs the people that they're chatting with. And then it's, you know, like they're insiders. And then it's kind of up to the insiders to either accept that verdict or try to change the verdict. And I know that I have, I have talked one of my clients out of leaving the field to try and survive, you know, to stay in a game, rather than trying to leave. And that, you know, I think that that's kind of more like, it is more likely that the, well, there's two, right? If a person's made their decision on their own, there's only two choices that the strategist or the close counsel has, and that is to either convince

Carter 20:17

convince them to stay or convince them to go, to change their mind in some fashion if you

Carter 20:23

you need to. And, you know, I think that we've all seen some bullheadedness from politicians who just say, I've done nothing wrong. Yeah, Alison Redford was much in that kind of vein. she she very strongly believed that compared to ralph klein she behaved very very well and i i you know wouldn't really hear well you're

Carter 20:45

you're not against ralph klein now right ralph klein wouldn't survive in this era either um but you know she was very perplexed by this

Carter 20:55

this double standard that we have as a society which i i agree we have a double standard as society however you

Carter 21:01

you know we We also change our standards as time moves forward.

Carter 21:04

But, you know, these decisions are often made by the individuals and then their staff tries to convince them otherwise or agrees with them. Because keep in mind, the staff also are on the cutting block, right? As soon as your principal decides to leave, you're leaving too.

Zain 21:22

want to get into that. I want to get into that. Or even if there's like a conflict of interest there when you're trying to persuade someone to stay because your gig is on the lines. But I'll get to that. Corey, you wanted to chime in on something. So the question is really the broad strokes of what you may have seen or observed around how these career altering, and in this case, career ending conversations might be had structurally or even mechanically.

Corey 21:45

Yeah, I've seen a few versions of it. I will say right off the bat, and the reason I was kind of flailing my arms is I have seen the six or eight. I've seen more than that. And often you see that- With something

Zain 21:55

something as severe, I shouldn't say severe, something as like ending

Zain 21:57

ending and altering as this? And

Corey 21:59

And often it's in a situation where the principal wants to do one thing and the advisors all recommend a different thing. And so they just keep casting the net wider and wider trying

Corey 22:13

find that voice that will agree with them. And then ultimately there's that one voice that gets dragged in in front of all of the other voices. And that's how the conversation gets built out. And so, because you got to keep in mind that just like everybody else everywhere, think about your boss, think about jobs you've had, think about conversations you've had with friends. There's a certain shopping that occurs. They know what they want to do and they want somebody to validate that that is the right course of action. And if they can't find it, that group can get pretty big, I guess is the point that I would make. So Corey,

Zain 22:43

Corey, how many times, and Carter, this is a question to both of you, how many times have you seen, and some folks might hate the fact that I'm going so deep into this, but they can fuck off, I'm back, and this is what we're going to do. Carter, how many times, what I find interesting is dynamics here, right? There's power dynamics, so let's peel this back, right? There's clearly power dynamics in this Tory situation with him and the staffer, right? And we talked, you know, Corey, you gave a hat tip to this, and I know other outlets and podcasts are talking about the ongoing nature of consent, the power dynamics, you we're focusing on using this as a strategy conversation, but the power dynamics between the principal and the staff. And then what I think is really interesting, and I'm curious if either of you have seen this, if the principal in this case, the elected individual brings in outside advisors, the best friend, for example. This person

Zain 23:35

person is the fucking shit. Don't fuck with They bring them in, to Corey's point, as the validation to the decision. Talk to me about the dynamics here because I find that really interesting because who at the end of the day holds the power? The people with core political skills that have been slaving away for 80 hours a week or the best friend that they talk to every weekend and go running with sort of thing or have coffee? Yeah, Zane,

Corey 23:58

Zane, this is so much bigger than career-ending. This happens all the fucking time in

Zain 24:03

in politics. Talk to me about it. Yeah.

Corey 24:05

Yeah. Well, David Axelrod talked about it during the Obama campaign. They had this strategy where they were going to roll into certain caucus states, and that was going to build the momentum that was going to get them to the later contest. And that's how they were going to beat Hillary Clinton in the 2008 primary season for the Democrats. Yeah.

Corey 24:23

And they weren't getting their name out there as big as a result because they were focusing on very local contexts and they were trying to create buzz amongst caucus goers, not the public as a whole. And there were friends of Barack Obama who were losing their mind. And Barack Obama would bring them to these people. And, you know, in that particular situation, the political staff that Barack Obama went up with, they won the day. But this happens all the time. You've got to keep in mind that politicians are not robots that only talk to their staff. They talk to their spouses. They talk to their friends. They

Corey 24:56

They talk to the people that used to be on their staff. And everybody

Corey 25:02

everybody has different opinions in this game. It's a 60-40 business. Even if you're right more than you're wrong, you're still going to be wrong sometimes. And everybody knows it. And so everything gets put into doubt. And ultimately, at the end of the day, it's the principal who decides. It's up to them. And so this shopping occurs perpetually, because quite often, it's a way to get around what is supposed to be the

Corey 25:28

the arrangement, right? Imagine Stephen's working for me. Imagine I'm a candidate, and this is an arrangement. And Stephen gives me some great advice. Stephen says, Corey, you got to step down after that scandal, right?

Corey 25:40

Well, this is supposed to be the deal. He's supposed to be my principal strategist. I'm supposed to listen to him. And rather than me overriding my principal strategist, and maybe that's an extreme example, because that's such a personal one. Of course, it would be my decision at the end of the day. Let's make an easier one. You've got to do this television show. I don't want to do that television show. Well, I'm not going to override him. I'm going to say, yeah, Steven, I think you should talk to a few other of my friends here, have contrary views, really smart people, really understand television. Let's bring them into the conversation too.

Corey 26:08

it's really me making that decision because as the principal i get to set the table and determine what's there and i guarantee you steven you've been in this situation i know i've been in this situation at a certain point you throw up your hands because you know no matter how often you win the argument there's always going to be somebody else brought forward and another counter argument and you just go fuck it okay do it if you want clearly you're not listening to me at this moment yeah

Carter 26:34

is yeah and then carter fuck

Zain 26:36

fuck i can go so many directions in your experience let me actually ask you a follow-up to cory's and i'll go back to the main question i haven't lost the plot and if i have like i said i mean i have we

Zain 26:45

we i have no idea where we are fuck

Zain 26:47

fuck this okay these are what

Corey 26:48

what do you think annalise is doing right now yeah she's

Corey 26:51

probably doing a better version of the show at a parallel universe that's for sure probably stopped listening 10 minutes ago hey

Zain 26:58

when a politician hasn't listened to you has that been temporal or has that been a sign of a deteriorating relationship oh

Carter 27:05

oh as soon as you start to see it you can start counting the days i mean because cory almost describes it as being temporal here like that's what i think is really

Zain 27:12

really i think it can be temporal i

Corey 27:14

i think it can absolutely be has it

Zain 27:15

it been for you carter like no it hasn't been i mean you're basically describing

Corey 27:21

thinking about my career and your career all of a sudden i mean all you're describing things are coming into shape you're

Carter 27:26

you're describing what i'm breaking out in hives here things are kind of of like holy shit no principles

Zain 27:32

principles and no spine he's like oh okay you don't listen to me right now that's fine i'll sell that that's okay it's

Carter 27:37

it's not even that right it's not even that i remember allison listening and so allison would listen to this uh her ea right 27 year old kid um didn't know his head from his ass because he was young and and he was still learning and arguably just not there yet and um but she spent all his time all her time with him and she really liked him really liked them and so she'd listen to whatever he said and he would say things like they don't understand you they don't you know they don't listen to you they don't have your best interest at heart and that's and and i became they

Carter 28:12

and and you can't be they and be a close advisor um

Zain 28:16

um but isn't that thing though to that point it kind of goes back to my point of conflict of interest when you are trying to persuade someone in this case let's say go back to the john tory situation You're trying to persuade John not to leave because you're, I don't know, you're fucking $200 chief of staff gig or your comms gig is tied to him being the mayor of the city still. Like, how do you deal with that conflict? And like, can you actually be an honest arbiter to the point that the friend would make that saying these people are just here to collect a paycheck? check every

Carter 28:45

every single person is sucking at the teat of power every

Carter 28:48

every single person is whether it's the friend or it's it's uh you know it's you know everybody

Carter 28:53

everybody wants something from the person and the person who really should want the least is your principal advisors whether it's your principal secretary your um you know your ex-husband your whatever it may be that that person should be the The person who says, I don't want anything from you. Yes, I have a job and I am serving you. But if this job were to end tomorrow, I'm fine. I'll find something else. That should be the relationship. Is it the relationship? Of course not, right? Like every chief of staff rises and falls with his or her principal. But this is a, you

Carter 29:34

you know, when you're talking about this group of people who are going around, Corey's nailed so many things, right? right? So many things. I'm going to just ask one more person until I find the response that I want is hilarious. I mean, I've seen that. I actually know who you're talking about. This

Carter 29:52

Corey and I continue to be able to communicate using ASP and hand signals. We

Zain 29:59

Typically, I have no idea who you're talking about,

Carter 30:00

about, which is fine,

Zain 30:00

fine, which is great.

Carter 30:02

And we're never mentioning who it is. And I've

Carter 30:05

I've also been the person who's been brought in as the outside expert right i'm going to just call i'm going to call carter

Zain 30:11

carter you've been the validator i'm

Carter 30:12

i'm going to call carter see what he has to say and then i will come in and i'll say you know i'll have two conversations i'll have a conversation with the principal and a conversation with the staffer and try

Carter 30:23

try and figure out what's the best course of action is um because oftentimes yeah self-interest is really hard but self-interest also exists within the politician self-interest is always going to be there everybody you're talking to is going to be interested in some fashion and you know what when i'm running a campaign people try and undermine me when i'm running a when when i got that when you become staff people try and undermine you because everybody wants to be one step closer to the candidate one step closer means closer to power and these types of uh difficult to navigate things are where power is won and lost in in political campaigns it's it's an amazing thing i i didn't think we'd go here today but this is is really cool well

Zain 31:07

i guess part of it the reason i'm interested is because of the human dynamics of it right like this is much of a being political staff and good competent skilled political staff is not just having a whip smart brain but having good people skills knowing how to you know know which battle you're going to lose to the best friend or the sister or the cousin

Zain 31:25

cousin and then which ones you want to fight for and i guess i'll round this out and i'll kind of zoom back out uh to to to a broader, to the broader political questions, any like lessons or how have you seen it

Zain 31:36

deftly handled, Corey, around the best friend? I'm going to call it the best friend just to like make a short, the outside advisor, right? How have you seen it like well handled? What are some like things you've learned along the way around how to navigate some of these big decisions that might ultimately to the bulk of this conversation fall on the feet of the elected individual, but you can actually contour in a direction that's both strategic and tries to get your point across as well tell me about what you've seen yeah

Corey 32:03

yeah well first and foremost you can't die on every hill you get to die on one hill you can talk about being willing to die on lots of hills but you can only actually die on one so you've got to decide at what point you're willing to seed the argument and the other

Corey 32:18

other thing you need to do and closely tied to that is you need to know who you're arguing with are you actually arguing with the best friend or is it proxy as i was sort of describing a proxy and

Corey 32:26

you're arguing with your boss and if you're arguing with your boss you you know maybe you let go at a certain moment just being acknowledging of that dynamic now it's tough i mean i'll just say right now carter you i

Corey 32:40

i worked for you at one point you're a tenacious son of a bitch you don't want to give up your opinion all of the time

Corey 32:47

make it sound like

Corey 32:47

like i'm the same way you

Corey 32:49

like well i'm the same way sometimes but the difference between me and you the word sometimes i

Corey 32:53

i will i will ultimately be like okay okay, fine. That's the relationship right now. You're not that guy, right? You are a force of will. And so I think one of the fun subtext for me in this conversation is like, you

Corey 33:12

know, hey, man, you've died on a few hills. Yeah,

Zain 33:15

Yeah, we've lived a few lives, we've died on a few hills. Speaking of which, this segment, of course, brought to us by Flair Airlines. Flair Airlines lines begging to be shot down uh carter uh that was a balloon joke not not that was a balloon joke that i thought was a timely fit can we zoom out for a second um hey

Zain 33:33

hey carter this is actually a perfect question for you toronto has a vacancy for

Zain 33:37

for mayor and they're gonna elect one in what like two months i don't have the details in front of me but they're gonna let one in like really quick okay so what

Zain 33:44

what are you doing right and actually before i ask you what are you doing from

Zain 33:47

from the From the Calgary perspective, what I mean by that is looking very far away into Toronto, what would your dream candidate be right now? Knowing that this scandal has happened, knowing the makeup broadly of Toronto, your dream candidate in a composite way. Talk to me about what that would look like. Young, old, male, female, talk to me about it. I'm kind of curious what you feel like the profile of someone that you feel like, boom, this is the person I could get elected tomorrow remotely. Remotely. When I say remotely, I mean sitting in Calgary, I could get this person elected because it's just undeniable that this is what Toronto needs right now. I'm curious if you have a read or a beat on the situation based on your observations. I

Carter 34:26

think it would be a woman. I think it would be a woman in her late

Carter 34:30

late 40s, early 50s. Someone who maybe has been there before would be ideal, but that's not necessarily a prerequisite. And has a microphone, has the ability to stand in front of a microphone and be heard. um and that was kind of like chris i'll jump over to christy clark not because she's running for the mayor of toronto but when we when when the leadership happened for in the bc liberal party um she'd been on the media she'd been in the media she'd been seen um she'd uh she was there to to kind of jump into the race and immediately become a factor i still think that that women are more likely to win elections right now than men. And I think that that lends itself to someone, especially in Toronto. I don't think they've had, have they had a female mayor, Corey? I can't, off

Carter 35:29

off the top of my head, I don't think so.

Zain 35:30

so. I can't think of one. I know someone like Jennifer Kiesmaat was close. I don't actually know how close, but I know she

Carter 35:36

Jennifer Kiesmaat would be an interesting example, right off the top. She's someone who's been there before. She maintains a public persona. she is uh you know she's well known she's easy to like and dislike uh let's not pretend that you know everybody who gets elected is universally liked um but i wouldn't want to be starting with someone from scratch like the the joe tigandek campaign you know like two percent voter intention uh with with nine months to go isn't isn't a viable option because you can't you don't have have enough time to establish name recognition.

Carter 36:09

recognition. This would be the perfect campaign for the Barb Higgins equivalent. Barb

Carter 36:14

Barb Higgins was our TV personality who jumped in, right? That would be perfect.

Zain 36:20

Corey, this seems to be, you know, as we study campaigns, this seems to be a pure name recognition style campaign, perhaps low engagement, short timeline. If we don't know we don't know you. Is that wrong? Or is there enough time, even if this is, let's just put a 90 or 100 day cap on it, Hogan, for a unknown to become mayor of Toronto by June? I'm just going to throw in an arbitrary month for you.

Corey 36:48

Yeah, I don't know if there's time for June. By the way, I looked it up. Toronto, this city as we know it today has only existed since the late 90s. But there were two pre-amalgamation mayors of Metro Toronto who were women, and June

Corey 36:59

June Rollins and Barbara Hall, so let's give them their due.

Corey 37:04

There's just not enough time to come out of nowhere because it's not just that you have to build a profile from nowhere, but you've got to build a team. So it's going to have to be somebody who understands politics enough to get that all put together. And unless somebody is going to be picked randomly by some super organizer and made into a household name, there's just not enough time. Is

Zain 37:26

Is that a thing, though? Carter, is that a false promise that a super organizer, a super chem, because we've heard this sales pitch quite often, right? That there's a vacuum or there's a hole and someone can just go from zero to hero in 90 days. I just want to just test that out for a second. Is that a real offering that you can turn to someone and be like, I could get you there in 90 days?

Carter 37:49

don't think I could. I don't believe that there are any consultants in Canada who could do that. And it's because of the money. uh you can't budget

Carter 37:59

yeah you can't just drop unlimited amounts of your own funds in uh and just do this um maybe you could do that in the states but in the states you're probably going to go up against someone who's got the same type of money that you've got so in

Carter 38:13

in canada i just don't see how it would be done i don't know what the steps would be to take an unknown in a three month period and turn them into a mayor um it looked like denji came out of the woodwork it It looked like he did this all in three months. And I always chuckled, you know, Davison was going to run the Nenshi campaign. And how many people do we know that are going to run the Nenshi campaign? Well, it was months and months of slogging. I mean, we put Nenshi into every coffee

Carter 38:39

coffee party that we could have. Some as small as two or three people.

Carter 38:43

And he went to them all. And that building

Carter 38:47

building is what gave him the ability to win at the end. And there's no time to build. So I just don't think that the, I

Carter 38:54

I don't think that that's available.

Zain 38:57

Corey, I interrupted you there. You're talking about the super organizer, about the runway and the timeline here. Maybe I'll kind of tag on a question for you, which is, if you were wanting to run right now, you know, we're kind of using this as an exercise. What are the couple of things, knowing this is going to be a short runway election, what are the things you want to do right away?

Zain 39:13

Like give them one, two, and three on that list.

Corey 39:17

Well, you're just going to need to make a ton of calls. Try to at least get people to think, oh, that'd be interesting if they come in to keep them on the fence. Everybody's going to have such a sense of urgency. Like, we've got to go now if this is going to happen. We've got to start organizing now. And so that's important for you. But it's important even if you're just thinking about it to make your intentions of just consideration known in order to keep them off of other teams. Because this is going to drive everybody, the urgency that's there. The other thing is because it's such a short race, you sort of know what the issues are going to be. It's whatever's in the newspaper today. You

Corey 39:51

You can be talking about crime and cleanliness. You can be talking about the super mayor powers that Doug Ford has brought in at this point. And that's an opportunity for you. That's also a risk for you. But I suspect you're going to hear a ton about the TTC and safety on the TTC. You're going to hear a ton about trees

Corey 40:08

outside of Osgoode Hall. You're

Zain 40:10

You're going to hear

Corey 40:10

hear a ton about housing, to your point. point and um and that's an interesting campaign because in some ways it means you've got to mold yourself to the issues because i i don't know i mean three months is not no time so maybe i'm exaggerating but it's going to be tough for you to shape it especially with so much of the conversation being around john tory and his resignation to begin with and

Corey 40:33

and so you're going to have to somehow you're going to have to pick the things and you're almost going to have to take off the shelf which is not how i would normally recommend you run a campaign that's

Zain 40:39

that's a good point and carter i'm going to ask you that same question and tag on the point cory made which is is it inevitable that this next race is a referendum on tory or no is is that actually totally and that's not what you said cory to be totally clear i'm just kind of yeah i don't

Zain 40:56

don't think yeah i'm extrapolating from that to be clear like is it but is inevitable that tory is part of the conversation i guess that's that's the point carter i think and then your same question your what advice would you give to your composite candidate that that you'd ideally run well

Carter 41:08

well this I was listening to what Corey was saying, and he was talking about this idea that the

Carter 41:14

the issues are going to be set. Well, this is one of the reasons you're going to want someone who comes from a background, because that person will bring their issues with them, right? Jennifer Kismat has talked, for example, about all the different ways that they can build and develop in Toronto, what they should be building as a city type of format. that would come with her because she'd spent months and months and years and years building that brand persona for herself so if you're an existing politician you're going to be able to bring some issues with you but corey's absolutely right outside of that the issues are going to be set by someone else now is that a referendum on john tory no but integrity and trust may jump back in a little bit more because again you know back-to-back mayors ending in scandal Kendall, in Toronto, is there such a thing as an ethical politician anymore, may be an overlying theme that defines the election a little bit. You know, I mean, I suspect most people will answer with, no, we don't expect there to be any more ethical politicians, and may look and be more accepting of a little bit more of the deviant, the deviance, which is something that if you're going to campaign, I agree with Corey as well, getting yourself out there as soon as possible. um it would be super important can

Zain 42:31

can we can we boomerang back to john tory he's

Zain 42:35

he's sticking around till this budget is

Zain 42:38

is that a good idea like he comes out on friday saying like fuck this no it doesn't say fuck i'm done he says it you know whatever you think of his apology um you know i've done this gross thing which he has i'm leaving and then now he's his office says well he's not leaving until uh this budget is debated and this important budget is is you know inherently passed past, what do you kind of think of that in terms of, like, does he, to the point of brand preservation, kind of take a chip off of that a bit or kind of sand it down? No, look,

Corey 43:08

I mean, maybe a little bit, sure. How could I say otherwise? But I don't know if this was his plan. Like, I don't think he said, I'm going to go hard with resignation and then fill in the details. Oh, by the way, I'm here for the budget next week.

Corey 43:20

Don't know if that was his plan. I think in some ways, it was probably a let's see where this goes conversation compensation uh that they were having there but it's not a bad strategy because what do you do the guy's already and i think so like he's already said he's going to resign and so um instead of like you you are starting also to think about legacy in some small ways and you want to control this final budget you don't want your legacy to be entirely about the scandal so if the last thing people remember about you is not so much your resignation of the scandal but you fighting over for the budget i don't hate that for john tory if i'm helping him try to rebuild his legacy he gets to talk about his issues and the other thing i would say is um if he

Corey 44:02

he had almost done it in reverse or if he'd said that night like i will resign after the budget people would say no resign yeah

Corey 44:09

but by saying i will resign and then four days later after the dust has settled a bit and it's entirely in the public consciousness that he's resigning four days fuck it hasn't even been four days. It's been three as we record. But even just letting the dust settle over the weekend, it hits different now. If it had at the moment he had said, I'm sticking around for the budget, it

Corey 44:30

it would have been a different conversation than even just giving it that 48 hours. That's

Zain 44:33

That's a smart point. So not bad. That's a smart point by Corey Carter. Is there a chance that whether it's strategic or by accident that the last thing people talk about John Tory will be his budget versus the scandal? Or is that wishful thinking? I understand what Corey's saying. It'll color it a bit. It won't dominate. It won't be the headline, but I get the point. Do you think it's also a good strategy and could it work, Carter? I

Carter 44:56

think that this is probably the right strategy. I mean, you've got to get the budget passed. It would, you know, you could make a chaos argument that if he were to leave now without the budget in place, there'd be too much jockeying, there'd be too much back and forth. The city of Toronto wouldn't be served. I think you could easily make that case. And, um, this, again, it doesn't look premeditated. It doesn't look like he said, well, let's just get me through this, this budget and then

Carter 45:25

then I'll, then I'll leave. It looks like he, you

Carter 45:29

he thought, well, I guess, I guess when is a good time for me to leave, uh, before or after the budget, probably after the budget, after the budget makes the most sense. And I think it's going to read that way because, you know,

Carter 45:42

know, that's the way it seems to be unfolding is that this is probably the best decision for Toronto and for its budgeting process. process.

Zain 45:55

Carter, final question, and I'm going to stick on the Tory specifics here. Let's go back to advising John Tory. And let's go to advising John Tory in the future. Not to say, and listen, I'm not saying John Tory deserves another chapter, right? I'm not saying, you know, based on what he's done, but we've seen people have other chapters, right? So let's just face that head on. And the reality, people do shitty, gross things and staying power, whether it's in in this job or in the future, what advice would, would one give? I'm not going to make you do it, but what advice would one give to John Tory as it relates to

Carter 46:28

the future, right? Like that's good. Yeah.

Zain 46:30

Yeah. Well, I am making you do it. And cause there's only two of you, um, on this show, but let's look at the, the, the principles of brand preservation, right? As we discussed with Corey earlier to kind of preserve that brand to maybe let's say maybe the loose guidance to Carter is what do I need to do so that I can come back in a couple of years? It doesn't have to be elected office but carter i like the public eye i like being on a talk show maybe they'll invite me to a panel maybe they'll maybe i can have the patrick brown arc in some ways um you know sans the the the elected office if that's the loose sort of like this is what i want to do what are some of the things you'd be you'd be telling someone like like john tory in in in in the immediate future carter help

Carter 47:09

help as many people as you can um be as graceful and as gracious as you can uh going through all of this make sure that people know that you and your darkest hour and most difficult hour we're more interested in helping others and helping yourself um you still have a tremendous amount of power until such time as you leave so make sure that when you're passing this budget you're focused on how you're going to help the individual person in toronto if you're um you

Carter 47:36

you know you're helping counselors you're you're meeting with people talking about the job job you're helping the media you're giving the media every opportunity that they need um you're just trying to be classy all the way out um you don't want to have petulance and small-mindedness you don't want to be like well fuck those guys who broke this story at the star i'm never speaking to them again that's

Carter 47:58

that's like the worst thing that you can do be

Carter 48:00

be be the biggest man you can possibly be

Zain 48:05

carter i'm going to follow up on this maybe push back a bit classy means exposure it means still hogging some daylight sucking up some oxygen not

Carter 48:16

not necessarily the the classy could be i'm on my way out i'm going to ask you to speak to my deputy mayor from now on classy could be i want to make sure that um you know that these other people get the attention classy could be that he doesn't he never offers input into the budget instead of what he does is he just simply moderates the debate um you know i'm not here as the mayor for the long long time. I'm just here as the mayor to moderate the debate around this budget to ensure that it gets done for the people of Toronto. I have no, I have resigned. I have no input into it. I am simply managing the process. That could be classy. Classy does not mean standing up in front of the media and doing press conference after press conference. Classy means evaluating what opportunities, you know, what exists in the here and now and doing the best possible, most most um upstanding thing that you can cory

Zain 49:10

cory your your your words of wisdom if i can call them that for for john tory with the loose definition of of you know preserving some sort of brand going forward preserving some sort of public facing side going forward yeah

Corey 49:23

yeah i mean come on he's 68 he was leader of the ontario pcs he's not getting a job like that again yes he was mayor of toronto he's not getting a job like that again his next act as he has one is is if he has one is that gray-haired guy who's brought in to be on like every bloody government royal commission or panel or committee a year and a half two years from now when people have kind of decided

Corey 49:49

decided what this is if they've decided it's something they can live with he'll be like doug ford's housing czar to fix affordability or he'll chair a commission on the green belt for mike schreiner yeah you know know cleaning up the pieces after all of this shit but like it's he's not it's not like

Zain 50:05

like i hear you i hear you i hear and it's public facing maybe not publicly elected to be totally clear but but cory to all of those roles hypothetical and otherwise it's not a not a guarantee that his trajectory means that he's gonna get those roles even with time passing by the question i have is like what does he need to do to be able to be viable for that future i

Corey 50:24

i i think carter's right how you leave matters yeah

Corey 50:28

know how does it matter how a man dies well when it's all that left it matters a great deal right it matters a great deal he's gotta on his way out not be petulant not blame other people for his own failings he's he's got to treat everybody kind of with like kind of deference and cordiality and you know not start fighting with the star for ruining his life because they didn't ruin his life he ruined his life right and he's just got to take that attitude as he moves forward through we're

Carter 50:53

we're gonna leave that not arguing over the budget is actually what I would recommend that he do.

Corey 50:59

the debate. Be the moderator of the budget. I disagree with that. I think he actually should lean in on the budget some, but I think that some of his opponents look a bit ridiculous saying it's undemocratic that he would be involved in the budget. I mean, he was just reelected. That's just the most foolish thing. It's more democratic if anybody else is involved? No.

Zain 51:18

We're going to leave that segment there, move it on to our final segment, our over, under, and our lightning round. Corey Hogan. One and done. This is... What in general? We've got some media topics to cover, okay? And we'll see how long this takes. It could take another five minutes and I could be out of here. Back up in my balloon, Stephen Carter, are you in or are you out on the provinces collectively agreeing to all that cash to be exact, $46.2 billion in additional funds over the next decade from the feds on healthcare? Are you in or out on the provinces not delaying, not dithering, saying, yeah, let's just fucking do it, whatever, guys? Well,

Carter 51:53

Well, I'm in because I think that, you know, you're going to be pounding on the drum again in four years anyway. So you may as well take what you can get now. There's not ever been a health deal where, you know, the premiers have even waited for the deal to get cold. You know, the ink has barely dried when they start banging on the drum for something new.

Carter 52:11

So take it. Oh,

Corey 52:12

Oh, for crying out loud.

Carter 52:13

Yeah, and go for it later. or

Corey 52:16

you in or you are like there was subtext yeah

Corey 52:19

yeah there was there was subtext there that they weren't going to be like accepting it for the long term in the conversation here's the thing what

Corey 52:25

what does out even look like you know this i almost think in some ways this is such a manufactured media event that the premier is like yes we will take their well i i

Zain 52:32

i guess the out could look like let me throw an example that it is that it's not that it's not collective collective that

Zain 52:39

that there was a prairie populist fuck you guys um holdout group okay

Corey 52:48

don't get money yeah no i'm asking you though like what the fuck does that mean like

Corey 52:53

like it's not a negotiation in a funny way it's the feds are saying this is the money these are the strings do you want it and like if they're like no what's what's their you know in any negotiation we talk about walk away positions right

Corey 53:05

right like what's your walk away position What's your, you know, best alternative to a negotiated settlement, right? These are the things we talk about here.

Corey 53:15

What do you get? Like, of course you're going to accept it, you know, and you're going to continue to do exactly what Stephen said, which is you'll immediately complain and ask for more. But there's no way to say no to this. It's a lot of money, and it's money that they want.

Zain 53:28

Carter, did you just notice Corey did some MBA BATNA? No, no, it was fantastic. Just so you know. Yeah. Just so you know that. I

Carter 53:35

negotiations class, too. Michael

Zain 53:36

Michael Scott, School of Negotiations. Number one, change the location. It's

Zain 53:42

It's a deep cut for the office.

Zain 53:45

Corey, with that being said, with that being said,

Zain 53:48

on a scale of one to 10, the masterstroke for the liberals here, a one and done, like offer done over. Do you feel like this was a masterclass on their part or am I wildly overrating it on your part? Where do you kind of land with how the liberals played this with perhaps the benefits of seeing what happened today day with the with the province oh

Corey 54:08

oh i think they played it pretty well and you would know that if you actually listened to the podcast while you

Zain 54:12

don't even know you guys recorded i know yeah the

Corey 54:17

number jumping i guess to be fair would not necessarily be a clue i will give you that um so i think they did pretty well and i don't think today changes my view of that i do think that there is still challenge down the road um

Corey 54:30

because um you know like it's interesting because there's opportunity for daniel smith there's opportunity for justin trudeau but all of that will come or not in the negotiations like what was today's announcement in principle they agree to getting more money that's part of why i'm saying like what's the alternative yeah sure

Corey 54:46

but the negotiation is yet to come like the negotiation is still coming carter

Zain 54:50

carter well scale of one to ten what do you give the liberals for for their health care negotiation tact and strategy well

Carter 54:56

well i think it's probably a six or seven but you know you give me me a bucket load of money and i'll probably get some uh some pretty good outcomes as well i mean you

Carter 55:05

you you drop a cool almost 50 billion dollars you're gonna do pretty well in negotiations with the premiers so yeah

Carter 55:12

yeah well done you

Corey 55:12

you know i just want to say like and we said this last time again which you would yeah if you listen if you glad to listen we're

Carter 55:18

we're analysts he's gonna be so angry but

Zain 55:21

did anyone listen just

Carter 55:21

just because to be clear to anyone ratings were up we actually had more downloads it was fantastic yeah that's

Corey 55:28

that's true actually yeah

Corey 55:34

look what i'm saying here is the liberals had did okay in this moment but long term this could be a problem for them like there's no guarantee it's going to work out the way child care did they could be uh you know some weird dynamics down the road this is what i was highlighting last time where for example there's a deal with quebec that includes certain permissions that then Alberta will say, why the fuck not us?

Zain 55:54

us? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so there's real

Corey 55:55

challenges with this one-off approach down the road.

Zain 55:58

They are into the individual negotiations of the provinces, as you say, Corey. Corey, I'm going to stick with you. On the pure political strategy, was

Zain 56:07

was Danielle Smith right to double down as she did on a radio show this week where she defended her controversial version of Canadian history with indigenous peoples, people's uh talking about how you know collectively they they've kind of built this sort of thing and it was it was you can watch it online i i'm not going to paraphrase it but danielle smith puts out a video really bastardizes canadian history gets called out for it doubles down on her radio show and

Zain 56:33

and the pure politics of it was she right to do so cory yes or no well

Corey 56:37

well here's the thing she has a pretty bad habit of doubling down just before she apologizes so i just don't think the chapters written yet but let's see where this goes but i i can tell you um this

Corey 56:50

this is one that's not going to be easily forgotten by uh you know first nations metis in in alberta so we'll see carter

Zain 56:58

carter same question to you from the pure politics of it and you know what

Zain 57:03

what do you think of her doubling down on this while

Zain 57:07

while having the opportunity to apologize and in this case the context here is she was called out on a radio show by a listener and said hey can you apologize and she said But no.

Zain 57:15

The equivalent of that? Yeah.

Carter 57:16

Yeah. I mean, I think

Carter 57:18

you know, First Nations being mad at you in a political sense has very little impact. The First Nations isn't an electoral issue. The First Nations is a moral issue.

Corey 57:33

It's more than that. It's like a massive legal issue as

Carter 57:38

as well. But it's

Carter 57:39

going to cost you necessarily anything in

Carter 57:41

in the electoral frame. frame so

Carter 57:44

if she's trying to appeal to her you know right wing base it's not necessarily a bad play to double down on it if that's where she wants to go oh boy

Carter 57:54

asked a political with

Corey 57:55

with the way duty to consult has evolved you know it's it's true and and zane in your defense carter zane did say i did say the pure politics

Corey 58:02

politics i did say

Corey 58:03

it that way yeah

Corey 58:03

but yeah i think it's very short-term politics because even if i wanted to be an absolute fucking cynic about And

Zain 58:08

And an asshole about it. And

Corey 58:10

an asshole about it. There is just too much that requires cooperation with

Corey 58:15

with indigenous populations. I just, you know, especially in this province, especially with resource production. She's doubled

Carter 58:21

doubled down, tripled down on the fuck you.

Carter 58:25

I mean, even the Sovereignty Act was a huge fuck you to the indigenous population.

Carter 58:30

Huge. Yeah. And she's just, I think that she's weighing the political challenges and has made the decision that this is at least the best way to go to get elected. And politically, it's hard to argue with that. There has not been an

Carter 58:46

an election that has ever shifted

Carter 58:48

shifted because of First Nations issues.

Zain 58:51

Carter, we were talking about John Tory's exit. You guys left the previous segment on the fact that how you leave matters. Well, let's talk about it. steven carter in your memory the

Zain 59:03

best political exit who

Carter 59:05

who was oh the

Carter 59:06

best political exit um

Zain 59:11

could have been about the the rules and the principles you talked about it could have been on the heels of scandal it could have been on the just a perfect crescendo of timing hey i'm done my my it could have been like a british television show eight episodes and you want more and where where were they? And it's just a perfect crescendo ending. Who was your who was your ideal exit? I think that's a really because it could be many different ways you look at it. But who was your ideal perfect exit? Here's

Carter 59:35

Here's my here's my answer. And it's because his tenure was cut short because of illness. And that was John. It's recent. It's John Horgan, because John Horgan left at the top of his game. He didn't lose an election. He was he had rebuilt the New Democratic Party of British Columbia in his own image and I think that that gave him gives him a real legacy when he leaves unfortunately we will never know if that was because of really smart planning on the part of John Horgan or because John Horgan just simply got sick and had to make the right choices for him and his family of course no one wishes that type of illness on on a politician but as a result I I think that his exit, I mean, we certainly haven't seen a proper exit out of Alberta.

Zain 1:00:22

And we've spent a ton of time on overstaying your welcome. I think we did a whole episode a couple of months ago on that. But I want to talk about the positives of it. John Horgan's an interesting take, a recent take, but I see why. There's a couple of like, you know, you mentioned correctly his health issues, but never losing an election, calling an election at the right time takes a certain amount of skill, like reading the room during that pandemic election. I thought

Carter 1:00:46

thought he was in real trouble, but he knew his people. He knew where he wanted

Zain 1:00:49

wanted to be. Upgrading his position in that election. And then to your point, really creating an NDP in British Columbia that appealed to men, for example, in certain cases as a demo, which has historically not been the case, at least across the party provincially, elsewhere, or even federally. Corey, your

Zain 1:01:12

your best exit. You can give me any person, any rationale, any reason, but I'm curious to kind of use this as our final question to talk about exits matter and who had a great one in your mind.

Corey 1:01:24

well the all-time great was george washington all right and his letter and his resignation he did two terms he talked about partisan infighting he set up so many of the norms like americans are so used to presidents only being able to run two terms that was only a convention until like the the 50s and it was brought in as a as a like constitutional amendment after

Corey 1:01:44

after fdr decided to run for four because nobody had done that before yeah everybody followed george washington's example and so you

Corey 1:01:52

know between it's setting that norm and the fact that he could have been the king of the united states but he decided to walk away and be kind of the modern-day cincinnatus and create this american republic was just fucking incredible um lots of problematic things in that man's life owning people at the top of the fucking list but that particular thing was um you know quite a masterstroke uh you know resigning when he did the way he did in

Corey 1:02:19

in a canadian context there's only one answer you know

Zain 1:02:23

know i respect i'm

Zain 1:02:24

i'm really yeah i

Corey 1:02:25

i respect and appreciate horgan's you know uh exit but it's it's trudeau man it's pierre elliott which time he's the only one we which time well the walk in the snow yeah february 28th 1984 how many other prime ministers can you You remember their

Corey 1:02:41

their rationale for resigning, how they resigned, and that was 40 years ago. Corey,

Zain 1:02:45

Corey, can you remind those people that use the term walk in the snow but have no idea to the historical context of it, what exactly was the walk in the snow? Why is that date, you know, so tattooed in your memory? Talk to me about what exactly he did that made it like the goat exit in your mind.

Corey 1:03:02

Well, he basically just – he said he wasn't going to run again. He held a conference and said it, and they said, why? He's like, well, you know, I had a good day yesterday. I went for a walk in the snow, you know, and I decided I, you know, and what made it so interesting, and we forget this because like the exit and the walk in the snow becoming the metaphor for deciding to leave Canadian political life. Yes,

Zain 1:03:21

Yes, yes, we use it all the time. We use it

Zain 1:03:22

all the fucking time. We use it all the

Corey 1:03:25

forget that what made it so bloody poetic was that in his autobiography when he talked about getting into politics when he decided whether he was going to run for the liberal leadership in 1968 he

Corey 1:03:37

he he made a big deal about how he went for a walk in the snow to think about his future at that moment so he bookended like

Corey 1:03:44

like his ascent and his descent with this walk in a snow metaphor and so it became it became the thing like there's no other answer i'm sorry i mean like Like, the fact that we still remember it and it's taken on this thing beyond 40 years later, it's easily going to

Carter 1:03:59

be pure. He was someone I thought of and I rejected because he left twice. But otherwise, yeah, I mean, he certainly stands up as the person that we look to and who has defined it. So it's hard to argue with Corey on it, but I'd be remiss if I didn't at least try to argue with Corey.

Zain 1:04:22

He did MJ it. He came back to play for the Wizards for a bit, as Pierre was used to. Well,

Corey 1:04:27

that's why he likes the Wizards. He gave us the Constitution during that MJ Wizards period, though. You

Zain 1:04:34

MJ, I think, averaged 20 points during the Wizards era. It was pretty impressive.

Corey 1:04:38

Yeah, don't sleep on MJ and the Wizards. Carter,

Zain 1:04:41

player was famous for the skyhook?

Carter 1:04:43

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who just lost out on the scoring. I'm so proud

Zain 1:04:47

proud of you. Hey, better basketball

Zain 1:04:49

basketball player or better columnist? Jabbar, what do you think?

Carter 1:04:52

I prefer Wilt Chamberlain as my columnist.

Zain 1:04:58

That's good. I appreciate it. I get that. No one else. It is good to be back. That is a wrap on episode 1036 of The Strategist. My name is Zane Velji. With me, as always, Corey Hogan, Stephen Carter, and we will see you next time.

Corey 1:05:17

you think Annalise is free?

Carter 1:05:18

Oh, we should, we should give her a call.

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