Episode 1020: Strategy sprint

Zain 0:02

This is a Strategist episode 1020. My name is Zain Velji. With me, as always, Corey Hogan and, of course, Stephen Carter, the Elon Musk to the Dave Chappelle of our crew. I, of course, I

Zain 0:18

don't know who I am in

Carter 0:20

Am I Elon Musk and Corey's Dave Chappelle? Is that what you're trying to...

Zain 0:24

I don't know. Who do you want to be in 2022? You get a choice between those two. Do you want to be either of them? Because I feel like none of the above is not a choice you have, Carter. Who would you take, by the way?

Zain 0:38

Jesus. No, Carter. No.

Zain 0:41

on. Come on, Carter. She

Carter 0:42

She wasn't even on the list. That's terrible. She

Zain 0:44

She wasn't on the list. I like that you're facting this. You're trying to let

Carter 0:48

let us know that you know something.

Corey 0:51

Congratulations. Corey, who would you choose?

Zain 0:52

choose? Who would you choose?

Corey 0:54

Well, I mean, at the end of the day, Musk is still worth $180-some billion. so i guess that's where i would go really

Zain 1:00

yes i was pushed yeah no that's fine uh he

Carter 1:03

he didn't even buy a tesla i'm not even buying this shit he's bought himself cory would

Zain 1:07

would go with musk and try to eradicate the woke mind virus that we we all have been affected with yeah can we spend like 30 seconds on this guy i know you guys did an entire episode what like three weeks ago about him um is

Zain 1:21

is twitter over it

Carter 1:22

it has to be i

Zain 1:23

i don't know hang

Zain 1:24

hang on oh you don't let me ask you i thought you're

Zain 1:26

you're just okay why are you saying it has to be before we

Carter 1:29

we move on can

Carter 1:29

i ask cory a question yeah

Carter 1:31

yeah for whatever you know when was the last time you used your facebook account good

Corey 1:35

good point my facebook account oh i don't

Corey 1:37

know a long like actually used it a very long time did

Carter 1:40

did you ever leave it did you ever cancel it did you did you walk away from your account no

Corey 1:44

no i could still log into it if i was so inclined

Carter 1:46

i'm just i'm just asking because we didn't end facebook we just gave it away to our parents and

Carter 1:52

and i think that that's the same thing that's going to happen them with Twitter. We're not going to leave Twitter. We're just going to give it away. Wait

Corey 1:57

Wait a minute. What side are you arguing? Because

Carter 2:00

Because you are the

Carter 2:01

who said it was over.

Carter 2:02

It's over. No one's going to be there anymore. We're

Carter 2:04

We're not going to go there to find things out anymore.

Carter 2:06

The way we used to go to Facebook to find things out. That was a wild time.

Corey 2:11

In very classic strategist fashion, that was going to be exactly my point.

Corey 2:15

People are just going to... It'll languish on. It'll do its thing, for

Carter 2:20

go. It's going to be his point. Do you believe that at all? i mean

Corey 2:22

mean i've made that point so many times it is trying to be records we have a podcast yeah

Corey 2:29

yeah on the record for these have you noticed this carter we've got a podcast we're recording you see the thing that says now

Carter 2:33

now you're picking on me too zane okay i'm making this red

Corey 2:36

red light at the top says recording yeah

Corey 2:40

we have to go after you you

Carter 2:41

you can't i could have saved myself a lot of time and trouble if i'd recognize that the the little red light meant that this was being recorded and distributed to hundreds of thousands of people well

Zain 2:52

well yeah okay well the distribution and the listenership are two very different things we've had to explain this to you multiple times cumulatively well cory

Carter 2:58

cory how many people i remember the time when cumulatively like

Carter 3:01

like how many hours of human life let's

Zain 3:05

let's not give away yeah

Corey 3:07

those are those are like ad you know yeah

Carter 3:11

didn't we say we're gonna have ads by the end of 2022 yeah what's

Zain 3:14

but But before we move on, 35 days of strategists. I was not there for when you guys announced it. What is this? Are you going to

Corey 3:23

good point, Zane, because I think we've only talked about it on Patreon episodes. Yeah, go ahead. Which I think defeats the point, I suspect. Which is like trying to sell Patreon memberships. So there's some irony there, for sure.

Zain 3:34

it's trying to keep the Patreon memberships. We call that keeping them. It's a retention strategy. It's a retention strategy. Yeah. Do you want to tell the people that are not on Patreon about the 35 days of strategists? i

Corey 3:44

i mean i think i lost interest in it a while ago so carter maybe you can tell them here's it is here's

Carter 3:49

here's the way it is those of you who are listening for free should be paying right we are too lazy to go out and get advertisers as evidenced by our flair well outside outside of one advertiser

Carter 3:59

advertiser outside of one advertiser outside of that skit which we made up a year ago and haven't walked away from uh we're just too lazy so

Carter 4:08

here's what we need you to do we need you to sign up uh you You can, today,

Carter 4:13

today, today only, the $20 level benefits are available for you at half price, $10.

Carter 4:20

Now, there are no additional benefits at $20. You can just give us $20 a month. That's up to you. You don't get anything extra. Or you can just pay us $10 a month. Or if you want to be super cheap about it, like the Zane's Friends, what is it? Zane's Advisors is the level of sponsorship. ship, it only costs six bucks, but then you don't get all the back catalog. And that's what's really got some value because as Corey and I were just talking about, every

Carter 4:48

every time that little red light has gone on, there's a 90% chance I'm going to say something stupid like JK Rowling.

Carter 4:56

Imagine going back and mining that for information that you could use against me. Imagine that. It's worth the $10 per month.

Zain 5:04

Oh, you're just begging for another profile to be written about you. a thousand words baby hey carter do you think dave chapelle ever hawked product as aggressively as you just have right now so i ask you do

Zain 5:13

do you ever feel like he was at a point in his life where he had to do what you just did right now which i i will say was uh and i hate to use this word embarrassing yeah

Carter 5:24

yeah well you know what i don't have i don't have dave chapelle's talent i mean that's evident i

Corey 5:30

got a couple notes for you okay yeah sure please

Zain 5:33

is good this is what comedy it is it's

Zain 5:35

it's an iterative process so cory's got some notes on your performance there yeah you

Corey 5:38

you seem to have at one point actually managed to actively encourage our 20 people to downgrade to 10 a month so not not sure about that um

Corey 5:49

didn't really lean into the fact that if you do the six dollars a month you get a whole other episode a week oh

Corey 5:54

oh we're more likely to do that one than the other one yeah okay so yeah yeah a couple notes on that front too the The other part of the 35 days of Strategist Christmas, though, is

Corey 6:04

is if you go to the

Corey 6:09

you can purchase Strategist merchandise. It won't be available for Christmas, but that's okay.

Corey 6:15

That's okay because it'll be available for another Christmas.

Corey 6:18

What did we say? There's

Zain 6:18

There's some great holidays in January. Yeah, January 6th. January

Zain 6:23

January 6th is great. If you observe. I think most of us do. do uh carter uh yeah you wanted to jump in here with i do with the final uh persuasive compelling sales pitch go ahead yeah he

Carter 6:34

he confided in me that

Carter 6:35

that every time we sell merchandise it actually costs him money so

Carter 6:38

so here's what we need to do i

Carter 6:40

i say we double down and sell as much as we can because he's fucked up on a couple price points

Carter 6:45

points and he's just too embarrassed

Corey 6:57

go you might even think that i'm the guy who cut him off there no

Zain 7:01

his mike his mike cut himself off because he was going to well he's going to bankrupt us cory uh and and you know he was going to bankrupt us with the merchandise um but yes Yes, Carter is right that Corey Hogan, MBA, does lose a couple of cents on each piece of merchandise that we do sell, which makes me very happy and makes Stephen very happy. And Corey, it should make you very happy as someone who we have known historically as having an unlimited joke budget. Carter, I'm sure, will join us. And if he doesn't, well, it's going to be an excellent episode. This is now, I don't know, I think it's clear, Corey. The 12th in a row. The 12th in a row. He's working off of Hunter Biden's laptop. We know that. Let's move it on to our first segment, our first segment, the strategy sprint. Corey, I'm going to go slow until our friend Steven can catch up, but it is that time of year again. Okay. It is that time of year. The

Corey 7:54

The holiday strategy sprint. Absolutely.

Zain 7:55

Absolutely. Well, we do the strategy sprint, the holiday time strategy sprint. Of course, for those that are unfamiliar with this segment, unfamiliar with this particular treasured, time-honored segment, Corey, uh they've got another thing coming here's what we do we have you and carter team up this is not you guys competing against one another this is about constructive building it's about community it's about that holiday spirit about giving a hand up to your political strategy comrade whether they're here in spirit like stephen carter currently is or whether they're here in person Listen, what we do is I give you a

Zain 8:36

a particular political situation that is happening in our country, that is happening in North America, but it is a political strategy situation where strategic choices either have been made or need to be made, where strategic choices need to be made to maximize an outcome. You guys will help me with understanding what the goals should be for that particular individual individual or political party or political entity that I'll outline for you. You'll then outline and build upon what the outline

Zain 9:09

outline of a strategy should look like. You'll talk to me about a few tactics, and you'll give me their key message. There's four parts to this. What their goals should be, what

Zain 9:20

what their strategy should be, what their tactics should be, and what their message should be. And the way we'll do it is

Zain 9:27

is only really two rules. Rules. First rule is you'll have no more than 12 minutes on the clock to figure this out. I will start a timer and we'll have 12 minutes on the clock, which will ring. At the end of it, you'll summarize wherever you're at. I don't care even if we're just struck on goals and if Carter's killing time, you'll have to summarize where you're at and you'll have to give me everything else that you haven't completed in the moment. It will be an improv game. If at that 12 minute mark you haven't done strategy or tactics or message, you'll have to make it up on the fly. You're going to have to give me a fully baked four pillar strategy for each of the things I'm going to mention. The second thing is we'll alternate on who starts first. We'll have between you and Carter going first. And I am absolutely aware that Stephen Carter is not here by the time I've given all these rules. And you know what makes that great, Corey? What makes it great is that I'm not going to tell him. I'm

Zain 10:23

going to tell him what's

Corey 10:24

I'm absolutely not going to tell him what the fuck is happening. Well, he should remember it is a time-honored

Zain 10:29

Well, he is old. He is very, very old and he will more than likely forget. But Corey, give us an update. What is happening to our friend Stephen Carter? Is he around? Is he dead? Is this the last time that we will be seeing him? Should we bust out the pre-written

Zain 10:49

Stephen Carter eulogy sponsored by Flair Airlines? line is now time for the stephen carter eulogy that we should start reading i

Corey 10:56

i don't think it's quite yet it's not quite yet but his computer is apparently restarted twice after it automatically restarted on him so uh we got a lot he's

Corey 11:05

he's uh he's an absolute legend and i think what he's gonna have to do is just learn from his mistakes he's gonna have to figure it out as we go

Zain 11:11

well i mean he he's he's never done that on the show cory i don't know why you think this would be a first uh but what do you want to do should we should we power through should we wait for the the guy i mean this requires i hate to say this pains me this pains me deeply to the core uh of my being this does require carter uh this this annual tradition does require stephen carter to participate hey

Carter 11:35

hey guys i'm back i'm back on my telephone because my computer isn't working at all wow

Carter 11:42

i will go buy a new computer we were 30 seconds

Zain 11:45

seconds away from eulogizing you uh thinking

Zain 11:47

that it was the the last time we'd ever seen you three

Carter 11:50

usually it does it once this was three times in a row uh trying to log on to riverside and it just shuts down so my apologies uh mostly to the patrons not to the people who are listening to the free free version fuck you fuck you all okay

Zain 12:07

okay well thank you carter i appreciate it carter i suspect that while you were gone you caught all the instructions uh for our strategy sprints we do this every single year There is 12 minutes on the clock. There's four pillars. You will alternate between each of those four pillars to give me a fully baked strategy for each of these scenarios. Corey, we're going to start with you first. The first one, Kristen Sinema. We're going to the United States before we come to Canada. She is a senator from Arizona. She is now leaving the Democratic Party. She's becoming an independent. Corey Hogan, I need you to outline going forward for her what her goals are, what her strategy is. Between you guys, Carter, you're building off Corey. You're not competing with them. You two are a team. goals strategy tactic message cory you start with goals i go to carter for strategy tactics message 12 minutes on the clock starting now cory what are her goals now that she's an independent doesn't necessarily leave the senate at lurch but she's an independent um and and perhaps a vote that the democrats were counting on some key key bills and heading into 2024

Corey 13:13

okay there's a couple of ways we could take this because one of the obvious goals is just to be re-elected in

Corey 13:19

right? It's to pull enough of the vote from the, you know, the Republicans seem to be the only option in a three-way race, see the Democrats fade. She's still caucusing with the Democrats. And this is a way she avoids a messy primary fight. She tries to become essentially a right-wing version of Bernie Sanders, right? That's one thing, but

Corey 13:38

but I'm going to give a different goal.

Corey 13:40

I'm going to give the goal that she is trying to create the national profile to run as a third party candidate for president in

Zain 13:49

Wait, do you actually believe that? Are you just fucking with Carter? Because he

Corey 13:52

he has to now

Zain 13:53

now write the strategy for that. I

Corey 13:54

I think in her mind, this is at least a door she wants to keep open. She thinks that the country has become too polarized between Democrats and Republicans. And she's both sides herself into this absolutely absurd position where she thinks she's the reasonable Democrat who is trying to find common ground with Republicans. Republicans and I think that in the hero narrative she's written for herself maybe she doesn't think this is likely I think this is what she wants Carter

Zain 14:19

Carter add a bit to that goal you can't remove you can add a bit you can scaffold you can contour a bit but you can't take it off the board Corey's put it out there what are you adding to that goal and how are you going to get started on the outline of the strategy for her it's

Carter 14:34

it's it's really all about her being able to outshine outshine Joe

Carter 14:40

who got a lot of the kind of third party, you know, the outsider Democrat who would come in and save the day as

Carter 14:46

as the outsider, he got a lot more national attention. I think Corey's absolutely right, whether she's crafting this to be a legitimate third party candidate

Carter 14:56

candidate for the national presidency, or

Carter 14:58

or if she's crafting this simply to make sure that That she's a powerhouse that doesn't have to face a Democratic

Carter 15:05

Democratic challenge in a primary where she'll know she'd get primary.

Carter 15:09

But I think she thinks she can actually win an

Carter 15:12

an election in Arizona or potentially

Carter 15:14

potentially be a major player in

Carter 15:19

in a third party bid. So if she's going to do that, she needs to set out three strategies

Carter 15:25

strategies in my mind. and

Carter 15:27

the first strategy is to build out a

Carter 15:30

a significant media presence so

Carter 15:36

um under misunderstood like it is it it is the key element she needs it national she probably needs new media media folks people that aren't coming from the democratic

Carter 15:46

democratic party she can pick up now as an independent senator she can pick up media people from the uh from

Carter 15:52

from the the Republican Party that have had a much stronger base of getting attention. I'd be looking if I was her, even at some of the attention that Marjorie Taylor Greene has been able to get. Matt Gaetz, bring in some of their media relations folks to help her get a national presence. The second thing that I would be doing is building out an operations element. If she's going to stay on as a senator in Arizona without the Democratic Party apparatus behind her, she needs to build out that operating scaffolding in Arizona.

Carter 16:29

And then a third is a national, she

Carter 16:33

she doesn't need a national organization as yet, but she certainly does need a national framework where she can raise money across the country and start doing barnstorming where she lands in Iowa or she lands lands in new hampshire she lands in south carolina and she starts to get people talking get people talking about um about her as uh as a potential option and and more importantly than even the talking it's it's raising the money uh but the the first step is probably the most important uh because it it will drive the last two big

Carter 17:07

big media presence rip apart uh

Carter 17:10

uh joe mansion and uh his ability to kind of dominate the inflation

Carter 17:15

inflation act or whatever it was that turned

Carter 17:19

turned out to be mostly a new energy act.

Carter 17:22

act. But those would be the three things, the three big strategies I'd be putting together for her.

Zain 17:28

Seven and a half minutes remaining on the clock. I should mention I have one ultimate power, which is I can hit pause on the clock if I want to discuss something, if I want to open up a bracket. And I do want to do that right now. I have hit pause at 730. Yeah, I can do whatever I need to do. Here's what I want to talk about, Carter. Let's talk about, let's assess the move she's made thus far. You're not talking, we are now taking today going forward, right? With all of the scenarios that I'm going to present to you guys, it's today going forward, forecasting into the future. Talk to me if self-preservation, Corey, was her goal, or let's just use your goal, or if running as a reasonable candidate

Zain 18:09

candidate was her goal. Talk to me about her move. Assess the strategy of her move of moving to an independent, which she did this past week. Let's talk about that right now, because I've hit pause on the clock. Get both of your assessments on her becoming

Zain 18:21

becoming an independent, first and foremost.

Corey 18:24

Well, look, I think she's reacting to the environment that she's in. The fact of the matter is a closed primary or a partisan primary really rewards people who are on the extremes of their party. And

Corey 18:35

And Arizona has a closed primary. It's going to be on the ballot, I believe, or at least there's people looking to put it on the ballot in 2024 to go to an open primary system where anybody can kind of put their hand up in the top two proceed or the top whatever proceed to a general election.

Corey 18:49

there yet. So in some ways, this is a great example of how systems dictate outcomes, because I think if she was in an open primary, this is not a move. If she

Carter 18:59

she was just looking

Corey 18:59

looking to continue to be a senator that she would be particularly interested in, there just wouldn't be any upside. But by pulling herself outside of that system, what she allows herself to do is, you know, ultimately, if she has concluded she had a 0% chance of winning the Democratic primary, and maybe she did, maybe she didn't, I have no.

Corey 19:18

insight, but I mean, she was certainly a

Corey 19:21

a joke in many circles in terms of her likelihood to survive given her views and given that system.

Corey 19:29

Well, then she may have concluded that this was in her best interest or this afforded the best opportunity.

Corey 19:33

But if you want to think about relevance and kind of survivability and moving forward, there's a couple of things that are just simple axioms, adages about life. It's leave before you're told to leave,

Corey 19:46

And I think That's the main one I play here, regardless of what she wants to do next. If she's assumed that she can't win a primary, let's say she wants to run for president. Let's say that's actually on the table.

Corey 19:58

Well, that's not going to be helped by her losing a Democratic primary. That would really muddy messaging for her. That would be difficult to be like, I can win. I can unite. No, you can't. You got 12% of the vote in a Democratic primary. What are you uniting with here? year.

Corey 20:11

And, um, and I think that's the, that's the crass reality of it. She just didn't want to lose and your options are always worse if you're a loser than if you're a winner. So take your ball and go home.

Zain 20:22

Carter. Okay. Talk to me about this.

Zain 20:25

We often say not we, cause we're smarter. Some say that independence sheds you of your partisan Jersey. It is the noble beacon. If you become an independent, you can do whatever you want. Um, is it that, and, and, and do you you feel like kristin cinema is chasing something here that is just short-lived and and and a bunch of like a dopamine hit but then actually yields her in a significantly worse

Carter 20:58

kristin sim i mean first of all in the united states being

Carter 21:01

being a senator means making

Carter 21:02

making up your own minds

Carter 21:02

minds right um you don't necessarily have to follow uh the party whip it's not the same where you're going to be tossed out of the party. You get to decide if you're a Democrat, not the Democrats deciding necessarily whether you're a part of their team. You can be thrown out, but it takes some time. It's quite more work than

Carter 21:22

than just a simple decision from caucus. Well, I guess not really, but there's a long history in the Senate of people

Carter 21:30

people acting independently to represent their state's needs. That's gone now.

Carter 21:35

now. The only two people practicing that were Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema in the last election. Everybody else was voting along party lines. Even the, you know, the great minds that were anti-Trumpers like Mitt Romney and some

Carter 21:50

some of the other senators,

Carter 21:52

senators, they'd given up. They'd

Carter 21:54

They'd given up. They'd fallen into line.

Carter 21:58

Kyrsten Sinema didn't do this because she was in some fashion threatened by the Democrats. She did this because with 51 senators being elected,

Carter 22:08

frantic vote was no longer going to be required.

Carter 22:11

Her vote wasn't going to be courted.

Carter 22:13

Joe Manchin had proven that he was able to bring solutions to the table and

Carter 22:17

and Kyrsten Sinema wasn't

Carter 22:18

wasn't able to bring solutions to the table.

Carter 22:21

So why do a deal with her when you can do a deal with Joe Manchin? And

Carter 22:24

And now that there's two of them,

Carter 22:26

that there's 51 seats they only need that one so

Carter 22:29

so if they can get that one person then then they're fine uh

Carter 22:33

uh so kristin cinema put herself in a position where she had no choice left but

Carter 22:38

but to become an independent senator uh

Carter 22:41

uh which is speaking

Zain 22:43

speaking of bold moves where the clock is back on and we're on to tactics i want you to i want you to talk about tactics but i also want you to cover off stephen carter's strategy let's go back to the goals she wants to become a national figure she She may want to run for president as an independent. Carter says, media, ops, and a national framework. What are you adding to strategy and what are some of her early tactics if this is indeed the goal and the strategic outline?

Corey 23:05

Well, yeah, at the start, it's just maintaining and building a profile. So for me, the tactics she needs to focus on are lists and money, right? And because that's a lot of where relevance comes from. The two are, you know, they support each other. They're not mutually exclusive. So building lists, I think you're talking to people and you're saying things like, I I want to work with like-minded people from coast to coast who believe the party system is breaking America. I want to encourage your representatives to not be so slavish to the left or the right, but to put America before party.

Corey 23:35

And then you get them to be brilliant in the list and you talk about ways that you're going to encourage that kind of activity going on. And so after all of your speeches about putting America before party, you also mentioned the creation of a new PAC, a new super PAC, America Before Party PAC, right? right? ABP PAC. And it's going to go out and it's going to spend money to encourage people who elect independent-minded senators and representatives who are going to stand up to their parties and do what's right for their community. And to signal to the moderate Republicans you might be thinking about along the way, well, you know what? One of the first people that you float as somebody who would have been a great person to give money to and an example of why you need something like that. Let's talk about Liz Cheney. Liz Cheney should have had support. Look at what she did there. So you do the classic Stephen Carter where you wrap your arms around the people that you want to support you and you try to show your reasonableness by saying Liz Cheney should have had some support.

Corey 24:30

McMullen in Utah, the independent who ran there, he

Corey 24:33

have had some support. These are people who are putting America before party and the party system is really getting in our way. So that gets you your money. You're building your list by encouraging everybody to come along here. And then in terms of your media strategy, it's all about,

Corey 24:48

almost stunts. It's this outlandishness and you have a couple of hooks ready for you. For example, you have said that you're going to caucus with the Democrats, or at least that was what I read on the weekend.

Carter 24:57

sure if that makes any sense.

Corey 24:58

And so in a funny way, I think that she announced it after the Democrats got 51. She's still being a bit of a team player with the Democrats because if she had said this, if the Democrats had lost, or

Corey 25:10

or maybe she would have, maybe she wouldn't have, but it would have created a whole different narrative than the, the, well, we don't really need that anyways. We've got enough seats here. Even though the Democrats wouldn't have lost control of the party under this framework. This was her kind of trying to find a path forward for herself. And I suspect in at least conversation with her Senator colleagues in the Democratic Party. But if you wanted to make more of a show, the next time they do something that is unpopular with the public as a whole, there's your media hook, no longer caucusing with the Democrats. You need a true independent caucus here. This is no longer working, right? At a certain point, you've just got to stand up and you've got to say enough is enough. I'm the only person willing to call bullshit in this chamber. That's the benefit of being an independent. We need to put America before party, text 55455, America before party, donate $20 now. You know, crap like that. So here's some of your tactics.

Zain 26:02

Carter, four minutes on the clock. Build on the tactics that Corey has talked about and start getting into message. He's already starting to get into some of that message, but add a bit more and build to the tactics. Four minutes left.

Carter 26:18

Corey has pointed out the caucusing with the democrats

Carter 26:20

democrats keep in mind you don't have to have a single caucus you can have multiple different caucuses there's especially in the house of representatives there are hundreds of caucuses so why not create the uh uh

Carter 26:33

uh country before party he's already relabeled

Zain 26:35

relabeled at country before party actually you know Corey's country before party No, you guys are both wrong.

Zain 26:41

Why is America before party better? I'm going to take a pause again and go. Tell me why America before party is better than country before party.

Corey 26:48

America is stronger, for starters. And you've also got to think about some of the misogynistic attacks that might be thrown at cinema here. You're dragging me down into words I don't even want to say here. But I think that's the real risk if you go down that road. So it's got to be America before

Zain 27:06

I'm still trying to catch up. Carter, the clock is back on. Finish on tactics. Start going on messages. Three and a half minutes.

Carter 27:17

I would create the

Carter 27:17

the America Before Party caucus

Carter 27:20

caucus and bring in Susan Collins, Mitt Romney, a

Carter 27:25

a couple of others. Again, they can continue to caucus with the Republicans. But this is where the conversations start. This is where the conversations start to reduce the amount of partisanship in the Senate. it.

Carter 27:37

These are the people that will actually make deals to make decisions and make things happen.

Carter 27:42

Maybe my friend Joe Manchin will join us. And so you create this caucus of five or six people, a couple of Republicans, a couple of independents, because keep in mind, there are still two

Carter 27:53

two independents to caucus with the Democrats already. Bernie Sanders is one of them.

Carter 27:58

So you can see that there are opportunities to bring these people together and say, we're

Carter 28:04

we're going to uh we're going to try and find ways to make these deals happen we are the deal makers yeah

Carter 28:10

and then in terms of the media cory mentioned the the caucus piece yes

Zain 28:15

yes we are you are on message

Carter 28:16

message you are on the clock with two minutes left and you have message but if

Carter 28:20

if we're doing if we're doing messages if

Carter 28:24

if we're if we're doing messages we're

Carter 28:27

we're we're the we're the deal makers

Carter 28:36

um it's it's about americans americans

Zain 28:39

americans 45 you want to add anything to this and we're going to summarize right at the 12 minute mark it's

Corey 28:46

it's got to go back to the times of old it's you're

Carter 28:49

you're gonna be okay

Zain 28:54

summarize that's my job now no

Zain 28:56

no yeah adding anything else to message that you may want to to add? You've kind of scripted some lines. Carter's kind of talked about a few statements here. Anything you want to add to this before we kind of summarize her entire sort of encapsulating strategy?

Corey 29:09

Well, the only thing I would add is that in some ways, your failures become proof points if you take something like this, because they rejected it. It's because they're so partisan. They're so broken. They can't even see a good idea if it's not coming from one of their own. They're fighting over the most absurd stuff. America deserves better than that. It's time time to put America before party.

Zain 29:28

Nicely done. With one minute on the clock, I'm going to cancel that timer there. Okay, here's what I understand. The goal is Kyrsten Sinema as a presidential, independent presidential candidate. That is what she's trying to do going forward. The strategy, as outlined by Carter Media, first and foremost, an operation, a national framework for conversation. Corey, on tactics, you added the ABP PAC, Pack the America Before Party pack. You talked about hugging those that you want to ultimately get their endorsement from. You talked about some key messages. Do you want to outline some of those that you had? And then, Carter, I'll get you the final word to outline some of your key messages and tactics as well. Well,

Corey 30:09

Well, the only other thing I would,

Corey 30:11

you know, Carter can summarize the message. He did that pretty well. But you want to be building your lists as well. You're looking for like-minded people from coast to coast who want to put pressure on their representatives not to be so beholden to the party. That's an important part of it. It's not just the PAC. It's also, more broadly, building the lists. You've got to find an excuse to get people onto your mailing list other than I'm going to run for president. It's got to be more like, let's all be a team together to try to stop this toxic partisanship.

Zain 30:38

Carter, and your messages that you had, the three of them, summarize them for us.

Carter 30:46

I'd like to break down. It's about Americans first, not America first. I think that people have

Carter 30:51

have always wanted someone to actually fight for them. And I think that Kristen Sinema can be that person. She has been seen to

Carter 30:58

to this point to be kind of a, I

Carter 31:01

don't know, I don't really know how to characterize her because she comes across so

Carter 31:07

Like if she starts to actually fight for the underdog instead of seemingly fighting for herself, it could be really powerful for her. Unfortunately, it looks like most of her money comes from special interests. Carter, we're moving from America to

Carter 31:20

Alberta. If she can, it could be very powerful. Let's

Zain 31:21

Let's talk about the Sovereignty Act. I'm going to put 12 minutes on the clock in a second here, but let me scaffold this a bit.

Zain 31:27

Sovereignty Act has passed, pending royal assent. It is done. Stephen Carter,

Zain 31:31

you are acting for Danielle Smith. We're going to talk about goals. You're going to give me what her goals should be now. I'm then going to go to Corey, who's going to build upon your goals. He's not going to change them. He can build a bit, and he's going to give us a strategy. Carter, I'm going to come back to you on tactics, and Corey's going to round us out with message. But, Carter, you get the ball rolling. And you get to directionally choose now that the Alberta Sovereignty Act has passed with those amendments that we talked about in the previous episodes, kind of stripping out some of those superpowers for cabinet. Stephen Carter, the clock starts right now. What are the goals for Danielle Smith with the Sovereignty Act passing?

Carter 32:10

One goal, one simple goal, and

Carter 32:12

and that is to make this act matter and be relevant to

Carter 32:17

Forget about all of the things that you're actually trying to achieve with it, and instead just make it about voters.

Carter 32:23

voters. It's not about holding anybody to account. It is about making Corey's

Carter 32:28

Corey's life better. It's about making Zane's life better. And here's how we're going to do it. This is the conversation that always happened around equalization.

Carter 32:37

The reason we were fighting Ottawa for equalization was for you. The reason Peter Lougheed fought Ottawa over resource revenue was for you. you this

Carter 32:46

this is what needs to be put forward is that this act this

Carter 32:50

this sovereignty act should have been called the albertans act it's

Carter 32:55

it's about you as individual voters and this is how we're going to protect cory your individual goals

Zain 33:01

goals reaffirm those goals you can't necessarily delete them because whoever goes first gets to necessarily put the direction in play but add to carter's goals if you'd like and then start talking a bit about strategy in your mind well

Corey 33:13

well the other obvious goal is to create a bit of a wedge with the opposition, right? So it's to make it relevant, but to make it positively relevant and wrong foot an opposition who has been very

Corey 33:23

very opposed to this bill. So you want to make it relevant in a way that the NDP would

Corey 33:28

would have difficulty following because there's an election coming in the spring. And so you

Corey 33:32

you got to take that into account. That's got to be part of the equation here.

Zain 33:37

Start talking about strategy, Corey. If your two goals that Zed Carter's outline, making it relevant and creating a wedge. Start talking to me a bit about the strategic outline. What would you start thinking about from a broader strategy perspective?

Corey 33:51

Look, you don't need to get too fancy on this. The most obvious places where you could make it uncomfortable for the NDP are in the environment space, right? The federal carbon backstop that's applied to provinces that don't have their own carbon pricing regime is based on what the Alberta NDP created here. So I think I would make my fights on that. I think it would be about the carbon tax. Yes, we have lost in court, but since when have simple things like rule of law mattered if you're willing to pass an Alberta Sovereignty Act to begin with, right? So you go out and you say, well, we're very upset with this cap on carbon

Corey 34:29

or emissions coming from the oil sands. We believe that it infringes on our territory here as a province. And we're saying that we are no longer going to negotiate with the province on this. So we're pulling out of any kind of environmental equivalency starting today. We

Corey 34:44

We are standing up to Ottawa. We're not going to make it possible for them to do the things they want to do very easily because they're not willing to let us do the things that we want to do. So I think the strategy is that. It's to pick something like the carbon tax and go hard on it. I certainly wouldn't do something like plastic straws, shall I say. And

Corey 35:05

then I would also

Corey 35:07

also probably go out of my way to bring equalization into the fight as well. So we talked about this a couple of episodes ago, but the idea would be to

Corey 35:16

to suggest that unless something happens on equalization, we believe equalization has been constructed. And I mean, that one's tougher because equalization is in the bloody constitution. So it's pretty tough to say it's an unconstitutional action, but maybe you can argue it's being applied in an unconstitutional way. I don't know how, but again, it's not like common sense or rule of law was a fundamental requirement of any of the actions to date.

Corey 35:39

And you basically try to get the NDP to stand up and say, wait, hold on. That's not what this was even supposed to be about or defending the environmental actions of Ottawa. one i'm

Zain 35:51

i'm gonna hit pause on there because carter plastic

Zain 35:55

plastic straws need some explanation doesn't it plastic straws need some need some explanation give folks an explanation on what cory meant by plastic straws and then i want to get your assessment on whether that was actually a super micro relevant example or was that really really dumb for the premier to mention but carter give folks some context and then we'll jump into it

Carter 36:19

well um our good friend carrie tate was uh who has

Carter 36:21

has nothing to do with her life except listen to danielle smith's radio show on

Carter 36:26

on qr 770 not the not

Carter 36:28

not her old radio show but the premier show that

Carter 36:31

that jason kenney uh uh

Carter 36:33

uh started and danielle smith obviously is continuing and in that radio show He said that a clear and obvious use of the Sovereignty Act would be to push back on the government

Carter 36:49

on plastic straws, which

Carter 36:54

which hasn't even come into effect yet, I might add, but doesn't really matter. Single-use plastic straws right now has been mostly changed by the market, not by the government. the the actual end date for single-use plastics including plastic forks and things like that is december 31st you can no longer produce it but you can still buy them until they're all out of inventory at

Carter 37:16

at any rate um

Carter 37:17

um carrie found or carrie listened to the to the premier explained that the

Carter 37:22

the sovereignty act would be able to push back on on over

Carter 37:25

over regulation like plastic straws and the elimination of plastic straws and so far that is in fact goy

Zain 37:33

it a good example the only Is

Zain 37:34

there any part of you that thinks, you know, people have used plastic

Zain 37:39

plastic straws, have used paper straws, or was this bad? Conventional wisdom is the latter. I want to just, from your strategy brain, give me a sense. Was this a good example or not?

Corey 37:51

Okay. So it kind of fails any kind of test of actual law and consideration. Why would the Sovereignty Act allow this? Why would this be ultra viris of the federal powers? I don't quite understand that. You think this is an infringement on the province? And especially if you're really keyed into perhaps how destabilizing the Alberta Sovereignty Act might be to Canada's constitutional order more generally, you might say, holy

Corey 38:19

holy shit, you're willing to risk this entire country over plastic straws? Right, which has been some of the commentary the past weekend. Yeah, for sure. And I think it certainly raised my eyebrows along those lines too.

Corey 38:31

But a lot of that is pretty inside ball stuff. A lot of that is stuff that people don't actually care about. And in some ways, if I'm being charitable, it's an interesting reframing of the Alberta Sovereignty Act is in some ways an attack on Ottawa over-regulation rather than Ottawa acting unconstitutionally, which

Corey 38:48

which is not the point. It doesn't actually seem like that would be constitutional and all of that. But I bet you there were a lot of people who were like, yeah, I hate paper straws. Oh, yeah, we should do something about that. Hey, yeah, a provincial law that can stop the feds from doing goofy stuff like that. Why not? Let's just do it, right? Right. I actually feel that there is going to be a bunch of people who think, oh, if the Sovereign Act can do that, that sounds OK. Right. Not necessarily buying into or having a lot of deep conversations about the constitutional questions at play with the Sovereign Act. So I wouldn't go so far as to say it was, you

Corey 39:22

you know, like a really clever idea or even intentional. But I

Corey 39:26

don't know, it's going to find an audience like so much of this stuff, which is which is part of, I think, what's got us all sort of spinning here. It's hard to determine what

Corey 39:37

is disqualifying at this point, because it seems like very little is.

Zain 39:41

Carter, give me your take on the particular example that the Premier brought up about plastic and paper straws on our radio program. Is there any good strategy behind it? Corey has seemingly found a tiny lane that could say, you know what, I could see this lane potentially being effective. It's narrow. Carter, in your mind, effective or not?

Carter 40:07

no not effective because you you've turned you've

Carter 40:10

you've made sure it's another opportunity for her to speak to her base but she doesn't need to speak to her base she needs to speak to the undecided she needs to speak to the eight percent of ucp voters from

Carter 40:20

from the last election that don't want to vote ucp and don't want to vote ngp

Carter 40:24

those are the people she should be spoken speaking to and if you want to do over regulation which is absolutely right the way i would do over regulation is to to point to the government of Canada. Instead of simply giving money to the provinces to fund health care the way we see fit, instead they are giving us money with so many strings attached that we can't actually fund the health care that we need in this province.

Carter 40:45

Instead, they are making us count syringes and making sure that we are given the right number of immunizations and making sure that we have given out the right type of mental health coverages instead of providing providing the health care services that Albertans want and need.

Carter 41:00

That's our real problem is over-regulated health care. And that's a message that I, or that's a, you know, to

Carter 41:08

to Corey's piece on, you know, carbon tax equalization, Emergencies Act, I would add, and over-regulation in everything like the health care, the health care areas, environmental areas, education, anywhere that the government puts a string on a dollar that's being spent by Alberta is an over-regulation and overreach. I'm

Carter 41:29

you back on the clock. We took that

Zain 41:33

Well, I'm going to cut 35 seconds on it. Keep going on tactics then, Carter. You initially stated this is about making it relevant. Corey added to the mix and said that this is also about wedging the opposition. He outlined a strategy for her. Start talking to us about tactics. And also for me, address the issue

Zain 41:52

issue that she has, whether to say I'm going to use the Sovereignty Act sparingly, as she has, or whether to say I'm going to get my ministers to look at six or eight things we can use the Sovereignty Act on right away, which she has. So Carter, tactically, talk to me about how tactically we fulfill the goals that you've laid out in line with Corey's strategy here.

Carter 42:17

She needs to be small and she needs to be specific. And the way that I

Carter 42:20

I would be small and specific. I said that Ottawa has us counting the syringes that we use for immunizations.

Carter 42:29

I would find something like that, where

Carter 42:31

where Ottawa has funded a very specific... So

Carter 42:34

So Ottawa tends to fund things like tracking projects that are tracking how things are actually going in the provinces. Find one of those tracking projects that's preventing you from spending money on breast cancer, and instead forcing you to spend money on how you provide

Carter 42:51

the breast cancer services, right?

Carter 42:54

right? That would be spectacular. This is how we use the Sovereignty Act. We stand up and say, it is not about, you know, it is not about tracking how many doctors are providing breast cancer services.

Carter 43:05

It's about tracking how many women are getting breast cancers, their breast cancer treated. And

Carter 43:10

And right now, all the government of Canada is doing is slowing us down. So

Carter 43:15

So that she wasn't wrong to pick the smallness of the straws. She was wrong to pick the straws. Picking

Carter 43:21

Picking something small, understandable is the key. We've talked about it with the no meat committee. We, you know, we've talked about it with all kinds of different, you know, like the $16 glass of orange juice. If people can see it and say, that's fucking stupid.

Carter 43:37

That's what you pick on. And if you can find a nurse whose job it is to simply track the number of procedures that are being done instead of providing services to the city or to the citizens now

Carter 43:49

now you're cooking with fire and then you run that ad a first person ad of this nurse saying i don't know why justin trudeau has me tracking syringes when i want to be helping out

Zain 44:00

out add to the tactics you can't take away you can add you can't take away but you can also reflect on what carter said add to the tactics and then we'll get into messaging which carter of course has already blended in kind of like you did last round.

Corey 44:11

Yeah. Let me throw a couple on that I will, again, it feels like a bit of a theme in this particular section, say there's no constitutional bias for, because of course, labeling laws is very much clearly federally in scope. But we've got the situation where children's Tylenol is being brought in, but Health Canada has said, well, we've got some requirements we've got to have filled out. One of them is that the packaging is bilingual, bilingual, right? That there are instructions in English and French. That's when you pick on to. That's when you say, we're just trying to get medicine to people during a crisis. And our federal government is more concerned with whether we've got French on the package. So this is another example where you jump in there.

Zain 44:52

Corey, any messaging threads that we should pick up on from your perspective? They can be built into the tactics. They can be overarching messages. I suspect there's going to be an element of simplicity that she wants to hit on now, Or maybe not. Maybe she wants to pick 15 different angles, but give me like an overarching sort of philosophy on what message should look like and then maybe what some of those messages might broadly be.

Corey 45:18

The reality is Ottawa has expanded what they've considered their scope for decades now. And it's time that the province is not just Alberta. Obviously, this is going on in Saskatchewan. This is being contemplated in Yukon. Other provinces I know are also equally seized with it.

Corey 45:35

We've said enough. Enough is enough here. And when it comes to our constitution, good fences make good neighbors. We've got areas that we're responsible for. Ottawa has areas they are responsible for. All we're asking for them to do is respect our jurisdiction. That's all the Alberta Sovereignty Act has ever been about. And frankly, Albertans know best what works for Albertans. That's why the constitution has given us this sovereign authority as a province. It's why we have responsibility for local concerns, because local governments know best how to address local concerns. It's time for Ottawa to butt out.

Zain 46:10

Carter, anything to add on messages as we round out here?

Carter 46:18

No one ever says, thank

Carter 46:20

thank God you're here. You know, hi, I'm from Ottawa. And

Carter 46:24

the response is, oh, thank God. You

Carter 46:26

You know, I'm going to clean that up. up. No one ever says, I'm here from Ottawa to help, and people go, oh, thank God you're here. People want people from Alberta making the decisions close to the ground. And what has happened, especially under Justin Trudeau, is he has expanded his responsibilities and minimized ours. That has to stop. We're putting Albertans first, and by putting Albertans first, it means protecting you from this overreach, especially in areas like health care, environmental law, and, I

Carter 47:01

don't know, I can't come up with a third off the top of my head, healthcare, environmental law, and equalization.

Carter 47:06

But keeping it small and simple. She's here to protect us from his overreach. That was Danielle

Zain 47:11

Danielle Smith. That was the Sovereignty Act strategy. Now that it's passed, I'll give you guys a bit of a breather. I'll give you a few seconds. Why didn't you like it? Reflect why you didn't like it. Because

Zain 47:22

Because I made you do uncomfortable things? Because

Carter 47:25

I think it would actually work.

Carter 47:27

work. Well, I'm going to get a fair

Zain 47:32

shake on partisanship, so to speak. I'm going to expand the scope nationally for our next one. And I'm going to take us to Ottawa, where Jagmeet Singh today asked for the House of Commons to have an emergency debate on health care as hospitals continue with a wave of sick children. He's also, Stephen Carter, threatened to pull out of the agreement with the liberals over health care. In this round, Corey gets to set the goals for Mr. Jagmeet Singh and the federal NDP. Corey, we're going to go goals. We're then going to go, of course, as we do, to strategy with Stephen. You'll come back for tactics, and then we'll round out with message. message. Jagmeet Singh asking for this emergency debate. He's also saying, listen, I've got the ability to at any time, I reserve this right to withdraw my support. I'll get it at some point. I'll pause the clock. I'll ask your assessment to analyze whether you like this strategy or not. But that's not the point of the game. We're going forward. So Corey Hogan, what is Jagmeet Singh doing going forward as the clock starts right now?

Corey 48:35

I don't know. But I guess if I was going to

Corey 48:38

It's so interesting, especially jumping off that last one where we were talking about provincial jurisdiction and what a different world the federal NDP live in than the provincial UCP, right?

Corey 48:49

The idea that the federal government is having a debate on health care at all, you could argue, is perhaps outside of things that should be on the table.

Corey 48:56

But OK, if I'm saying my my goal

Corey 49:00

goal is simple, it's to it's to continue to yank the liberals chain. It's to continue to be able to suggest that I am able to get things out of the liberals. and not that I've given them a blank check with this confidence motion. So I would

Corey 49:12

would imagine there are two things. In the emergency debate, A,

Corey 49:16

A, that there is an emergency debate, but then B, something concrete coming out of it. The most obvious one would be the prime minister agreeing to meet with the minister or the first ministers, so the premiers, to talk about healthcare in January, which was a request that they made last week, I believe. I mean, it's a perennial request. I mean, it was ever thus. The province is saying, give us money for healthcare, no strings attached, please. And this

Corey 49:41

this goes back because the federal government has much greater powers of taxation than the provinces do, just as a bit of background here. here.

Corey 49:48

But yeah, I think I would be looking for that. I would be looking to be able to say he didn't want to do it because Trudeau is on the record being like, oh, I talk to them all the time, not really keen on it. But because I held his feet to the fire, he's doing it. And because of that, there will be improvements in healthcare in Canada.

Corey 50:07

That's maybe the brass ring. There are probably other things you can do there. But I guess ultimately, if I'm going to broaden it, it's that there is a clear cause and effect. Cause being you, effect being something the the Liberals do differently on health care so that you can take a victory lap.

Zain 50:21

Corey said, you know, listen, there's a couple of goals here, I guess. One is to actually manifest that emergency debate, to have that meeting in January.

Zain 50:29

Carter, what would you add to these goals? Today, he's, I shouldn't say he's dominating headlines, but we've seen Chakmeet Singh in the headlines again. So that must be a win of some sort, maybe. He's asking for this emergency debate. He's kind of waiving the only sort of leverage

Zain 50:45

leverage he has, which is his ability to withdraw from this deal.

Zain 50:50

What would you add to Corey's goals before you jump into strategy and how he should frame these goals out for Jagmeet Singh? Corey's got the political goal of ensuring that you can articulate to the broader public that you're not just giving the liberals a free ride. And then, of course, the two more specific goals of having the emergency debate and this meeting happen with the health ministers across the country. Carter, add to the goals, get us started on strategy.

Carter 51:21

Oh, man, I don't know, because this is so far outside.

Carter 51:26

No, I mean, it's ironic that I'm able to come up with goals and strategies for Danielle Smith better and under stupid sovereignty act better than I can for Jagmeet Singh. his uh his

Carter 51:37

his his tactics let me hit pause let me

Zain 51:41

why are you struggling with this i'm very curious why you're struggling with this because

Carter 51:45

because it's the second it's the second time in two months that he said i reserve the right to uh not not agree with this this thing that i've done um i reserve that right okay are you sure

Carter 51:57

sure do you feel like he's at that

Zain 51:59

that point and cory i'll bring you in on this as well like do you feel like this

Zain 52:02

this particular move i did say i at some point, I will retroactively get you to assess his call here, right? His once again, statement of being able to withdraw his support. Do you feel like that was an overreach, Carter? And then same question to you, Corey.

Carter 52:20

not going to pull his support. He's not ready to

Carter 52:22

to go to an election. He doesn't want to get annihilated. And he certainly doesn't want Pierre Polyev becoming becoming the next prime minister. So

Carter 52:29

So this is a fake threat designed

Carter 52:32

designed to get suspect outcomes.

Carter 52:36

I mean, let's take Corey's

Carter 52:37

Corey's outcomes on their face. I agree with Corey. I think that that is absolutely the best he can hope for.

Carter 52:43

Wow. You got an extra day of debate on healthcare and

Carter 52:47

and you may force a meeting that you don't get to attend.

Corey 52:51

Did you ever put your finger on it? That's part of what's crazy about this right like what is the upside here you know

Corey 52:59

know i the thing i'd say is this

Corey 53:02

this tells us a bit about the anxieties of jagmeet singh as much as anything else that he would feel the need to do this and in my opinion a lot of it is tied to the fact that there's a by-election today it's it's uh 11 30 or mountain not mountain 11 30 eastern time right now we don't have the results uh the liberal candidate suza has basically declared they think that they won based on the votes in the

Corey 53:26

the liberal candidate right now has 55 of the vote it's

Corey 53:29

it's i don't know how it's going to land i don't know enough about the polls coming in there it's possible the liberals will have trounced the conservatives there but

Corey 53:35

but regard and we should talk about that in a minute maybe but the important thing here is the ndp were nowhere and

Corey 53:40

and this was a race between the liberals and the conservatives and it felt a little bit me too that singh was trying to get into the conversation today uh

Corey 53:47

uh with this particular swing i don't i don't know if this was anything more than that at the end of the day uh because carter's absolutely

Corey 53:55

absolutely nailed it like like at the his best case scenario is trudeau selects this and then he gets to be the person who's going forward to the first minister's conference carter

Zain 54:06

carter i put the clock back on because i do want you to despite the fact you're having reservations and you're having struggles with perhaps an overreach or the fact he's played this hand one too many times or to cory's point it shows and illustrates rates, Jagmeet Singh's anxieties more so than it does a solid political strategy. All of that is

Zain 54:25

notwithstanding, Carter. You have to help him out here.

Zain 54:28

he sets some of the goals, what are you adding to the goals and what is his strategy now? You have to help him out here. He's in a bind. He's made the move. You've got to push him forward, Carter. What are you adding to the strategic side of things for Jagmeet Singh here?

Carter 54:48

Own health care, right?

Carter 54:50

Like if we're going to do this, the goal, I mean, I'm adding a goal of owning health care rather

Carter 54:55

rather than just trying to.

Carter 54:58

So the dental plan that

Carter 55:00

that was just passed, any

Carter 55:04

new health care funding that comes forward,

Carter 55:06

the NDP are going to own it. So

Carter 55:08

So therefore, we need to create some

Carter 55:11

some strategies around communications on health care, where

Carter 55:18

gets tricky. Because in BC, you've got an NDP government that's

Carter 55:21

that's not performing particularly well on health care.

Carter 55:23

In Alberta, you've got an Alberta NDP that's

Carter 55:27

that's in opposition that

Carter 55:28

that didn't do much with health care when they had the opportunity. opportunity i

Carter 55:35

just talked myself right into a fucking hole on

Carter 55:38

on on what they should be doing zane like the

Carter 55:41

the strategy should be to own health care period that's

Carter 55:44

that's what he should be trying to figure out um

Carter 55:47

and he should be using tactics that are smart do you

Zain 55:49

you want to add on this you know this could be one of those things where you guys ultimately conclude that it's

Zain 55:55

it's a game set match right this was a one-day thing like there's really nothing more to this that like the strategy should should be just to to kill this and move on no

Corey 56:02

no no i i actually but but i'm letting this is i

Zain 56:05

i hear you carter but i'm gonna let i'm just putting that out there not saying i'm not pushing you in that direction but

Zain 56:12

cory you want to build on any strategy and then as we start getting into into tactics for him a bit actually

Corey 56:16

actually i like i quite like that the idea that you're trying to own health care you're trying to be the champion of national health care and a national interest in health care you it builds pretty organically on your pharma care commitments your dental care commitments, the things you've managed to pull out of the Liberals to date that people remember. And now you talk about healthcare more aggressively. And are you

Zain 56:37

owning the public aspect of it, Corey? Are

Zain 56:38

Are you owning the, because perhaps one of the slow burn conversations that's happening with the current crisis is more private sort of institutions being like, look, here's a proof point of healthcare in crisis. We need more private. Are you owning healthcare as the broadest of tent? Or are you owning your sort of public healthcare angle? Public,

Corey 57:00

universal, and with a universal standard set by the federal government. If we're in, we're in, and we're going to do this right.

Corey 57:07

Part of the reason why healthcare is under threat in provinces across Canada is because the liberal government is not either having a firm enough hand and is not funding enough money. And I think both of those can be resolved if

Corey 57:20

if we had a prime minister who gave a damn. That's got to be your line if you're saying, and you just start hammering it, hammering it, hammering it. And frankly, if

Corey 57:28

if you're the prime minister, you've got to worry about, well, how is Quebec going to react? How is Alberta going to react? None of the provinces like to be told what to do with healthcare money. Some of them will just absolutely like their hair on fire. But

Corey 57:38

But if you're saying maybe you don't care about that, maybe that's irrelevant to you. And maybe that's an opportunity for you to say, well,

Corey 57:44

well, maybe he's not willing to defend

Corey 57:46

universal healthcare, but I am. I absolutely. Yeah. And

Corey 57:49

And perhaps the liberals, by being, quote

Corey 57:52

quote unquote, diplomatic, have vacated that space and made it available to the NDP. So so maybe that's your strategy. Maybe your strategy is to continually talk about public health care with Ottawa driven standards and watch the prime minister squirm. Like maybe that's your wedge going forward and the way you make things difficult for the prime minister, because most Canadians, I think, would actually be OK with that.

Corey 58:14

The prime minister realizes the complications of that.

Zain 58:20

cory uh cory uh helped you out a hole there so i'm gonna give you tactics uh because he did your job on strategy so

Corey 58:26

so i'm uh i'm gonna give you tactics if

Corey 58:28

if do you first of all what

Zain 58:28

what do you think i'm

Zain 58:32

of all i mean there's own health care you had two words i mean and he said he quite liked it that it was like like i

Corey 58:38

i came to a burned down lot and i built a new house where one was i guess

Zain 58:42

guess yeah yeah he's like oh maybe some a building should go here that's that's pretty much what you your your whole contribution was you know where the building was was burned down uh maybe we should put another dairy queen here right that was your contribution deep cut you're welcome metaphor

Corey 58:56

metaphor speaks to me yeah yeah

Zain 58:57

yeah it speaks to speaks to a few of us carter some tactics if the if the goal is to own it federal standards if the goan is to goal is to fully own talks to me about a few early tactics that he could now leverage off he's already done what he's done which is he said that listen i could withdraw my support now owning this tactically we've got three and a half minutes i want tactics and then cory i want to get you get you started on message very quickly to round this out

Carter 59:23

got to withdraw his

Carter 59:24

his support of the agreement in january and

Carter 59:28

and he's got to negotiate a new agreement

Carter 59:30

he's got to say that we have achieved quite a bit but we have not been focused enough and this is the fault of the of the last agreement we

Carter 59:38

we need to focus on a new agreement that is singularly

Carter 59:41

focused on health care.

Carter 59:42

The economy has rebounded in no small part, thanks to organized labor.

Carter 59:48

We require now health care, which

Carter 59:52

which is the second premise of the NDP, why

Carter 59:55

why we exist. It is who we are in our core.

Carter 59:59

Frankly, we don't even have public health care if it's not for Canada's

Carter 1:00:02

Canada's NDP. the national

Carter 1:00:05

national understanding of what health care looks like is now on the docket uh

Carter 1:00:10

uh we were we're going to have a conversation about this we're going to have it right now because this is um this if this isn't everybody's election issue uh in the in the future it is every canadian's election issue i

Carter 1:00:23

i don't know making some shit up but i think that that he pulls his support in January and says, we

Carter 1:00:29

we got to renegotiate because we need to get more specifics on healthcare. Would you

Zain 1:00:35

you go that far? And what would you add to it? We got two and a half minutes, build to me on Carter's tactics and add a bit of your messaging as well.

Corey 1:00:43

There is an interesting avenue, maybe if you were to go down Carter's where you almost call a press conference and you apologize to Canadians and you say, you know, when I talked about supporting healthcare, I thought that myself and the prime minister were on the same page. And And I'm sorry to Canadians because it's clear to me that we are not. It's clear to me that he sees health care as an annoyance, whereas I see it as a right, an obligation of government to fulfill part of our birthright as Canadians to have universal health care. So I am today announcing the end of our supply agreement, which is not to say I'm going to bring the government down tomorrow. But it's to say that the government, if it wants a single other vote from us, is going to have to write this right now, right now. And I won't accept anything less than that. And so I'm no longer asking, I'm telling, the Prime Minister will meet with the premiers in the next two weeks, or else we will bring his government down.

Corey 1:01:35

I'm happy to take questions at this point.

Zain 1:01:38

Carter, build on it. We've got a minute and a half. Build on additional messaging.

Carter 1:01:45

I liked where he was going with the healthcare

Carter 1:01:48

healthcare kind of, you know, he and I were on a different page of what healthcare means.

Carter 1:01:54

He still seems to be under the impression that

Carter 1:01:56

that healthcare means additional private, you know, additional privatization, additional opportunities for

Carter 1:02:03

provinces like Quebec, Ontario, and Alberta to tear down healthcare. I don't mean that by healthcare, care what i mean by health care is strengthening the public the public system this is something that i am prepared to take 40 seconds think

Corey 1:02:18

think about this if you say meet with the premiers or i bring your government down and he refuses to meet with the premier first of all how insane would that be that's the lowest price you're not even asking them to commit to anything but if he does it he's weak and he's done exactly what singh told him to do that he wouldn't do if he doesn't do it he has to spend an entire election explaining why he wouldn't even meet with the premiers to talk When would you do that? Would

Zain 1:02:40

Would you do that before Christmas? If you're Jagmeet Singh, would you do that tomorrow?

Carter 1:02:45

January. You'd wait until now.

Carter 1:02:49

Timing is mid-January. When people have come back from their Christmas, they've seen their Christmas credit cards.

Carter 1:02:54

And the last thing they want to think about is another fucking election. Nicely done.

Zain 1:02:58

Right on the money. 12 minutes. Nicely done. Carter, reflections on that one. Reflections on the Jagmeet Singh strategy. I made you do it all on the fly. Do you feel like something like that could work for him? You were in a hole. Both of you were in a hole. But do you feel like where you landed, that could actually be quite productive for him?

Carter 1:03:17

Yeah, because he's strong.

Carter 1:03:20

I think we've been saying for Jagmeet

Carter 1:03:21

Jagmeet Singh for 15 fucking years, be strong, you pussy. and

Carter 1:03:26

uh now we're making him strong the thing is we can't take you can't take a weak man to strength i don't

Corey 1:03:32

don't know what to say about this is one of those days yeah

Zain 1:03:38

yeah yeah this is this is definitely one of those days okay i'm gonna go to my final one why why not cory why not oh sure we're doing the fun we're

Zain 1:03:46

the hour mark but

Zain 1:03:48

that's fine i mean we record

Zain 1:03:49

so rarely now we're

Zain 1:03:52

my truth. Well, actually, that's a good segue for me, Corey. Stephen

Zain 1:03:56

Stephen Carter, our final strategy sprint begins with the legacy of pandemic spending. The audit report is out. It indicates that Trudeau's pandemic spending wasted billions, probably doesn't surprise many, that they overpaid as much as $32 billion, that there was big price tags over $200 billion for fiscal supports to individuals and businesses. And there now seems to be the ongoing tug of war, Stephen Carter, to define the pandemic spending era. Was it good? Was it not? In this case, Corey, I'm going to get you to begin on our goals. And you are going to play Justin Trudeau and the liberals. You are the governing party. This is your two plus years of pandemic spending. This was in many ways in the moment considered to be a masterstroke of efficiency, how quickly your government could move, celebrated across the world for helping people quickly and swiftly, keeping the economy afloat. If you remember at that time, the stock market was doing great. We kind of had bounce back job growth. We're now relitigating this in a very different time. High inflation, people expecting the recession to hit, job losses, etc. We are at relitigating pandemic spending and perhaps sending it off on a legacy trajectory of some sort. And Corey Hogan, you are helping Justin Justin Trudeau and the liberals. What would your goals be here if you are the governing liberal party on this?

Zain 1:05:29

What I suspect is chapter one of this relitigation, or at least the beginning of the relitigation of your pandemic spending, its appropriateness, its timeliness, and of course, now the eye-popping dollar figure as well. Start with the goals, Carter. You're on deck next. Yeah.

Corey 1:05:45

Yeah. So the goal is actually to do

Corey 1:05:48

do exactly not what you suggested. It's not chapter one. Your goal is that this is not a chapter book. It's a pamphlet. And this is the end of it. You're going to try

Corey 1:05:56

try to quash it before it becomes a thing, before it runs away on you, before it starts conversations about, okay, well, 32 billion, well, how, what parts, and let's talk about the next billion. And so you've got to find, and I'm sorry to jump a bit into strategy and tactics here, but you've got to find ways to contextualize and you've got to make people pass

Corey 1:06:14

pass their eyes back to, yes, you know, in 2020, we

Corey 1:06:18

we care about things like government being good with their spending, but we cared more about addressing the immediate crisis in front of us and

Corey 1:06:25

decisions had to be made. And this was a government that wasn't afraid of making decisions. And yeah, okay. Well, with a time machine and perfect hindsight, absolutely.

Corey 1:06:34

We would have spent money in different ways. But isn't that true of every government across the planet right now? We did what we needed to do.

Corey 1:06:43

But anyways, the goal has to be not

Corey 1:06:45

not to make this a long story.

Corey 1:06:47

Because it doesn't help you. Even if you're winning the story, it doesn't help you.

Zain 1:06:52

Carter, you know, there might be some that argue that we need to win on this legacy. This might be the most important thing we ever did as a government, was the timely response. Almost bring people back to the emotionality of when they felt like they were getting support from their government. Timely. Effectiveness.

Zain 1:07:09

Others would say Corey's strategy is correct. Corey's goal is correct. That this is not about relitigating. Actually, you want to suppress that conversation. You want to shorten it as much as you can. Turn any book that needs to be written on it to a pamphlet carter you can't change cory's goal but you can add to it i'm curious where your head's at though it

Carter 1:07:29

needs to be a very simple message i mean that's why cory's goals carter

Carter 1:07:33

we're on goals i like that

Zain 1:07:34

that you said we're on a simple message but i'm gonna keep you in line i'm gonna

Carter 1:07:37

no but this is the whole point like cory's little pamphlet idea of making of the strategy and the goal to get out of this as quickly as possible is exactly right and this

Carter 1:07:48

goal is to get past this to get into the next thing so

Carter 1:07:51

the next thing needs to be queued up in fact you

Carter 1:07:54

you know uh justin trudeau should be listening to our previous segment about how to how to make health care the topic for 2023 but more importantly he

Carter 1:08:02

he needs to not make the topic of 2023 2021 so

Carter 1:08:08

how do you go back to that and and make you

Carter 1:08:11

know get through that and the strategies that i would would add to it have

Carter 1:08:16

a simple message about a super simple message we're going to repeat it ad nauseum and we're not going to go back and relitigate we're

Carter 1:08:25

we're going to the simple and and i know i'm not supposed to do the message yet but

Carter 1:08:29

but i'm going to anyways because i don't give a fuck for your rules right

Carter 1:08:34

i'd do it all again

Carter 1:08:37

yeah i wouldn't have done it at all yeah

Corey 1:08:39

yeah you know what my message is kind of similar we're not sorry that we acted quickly end

Corey 1:08:44

end of story that's

Carter 1:08:48

that's your pamphlet every

Carter 1:08:49

every time something like this comes up every time the question is asked that

Carter 1:08:53

that is the answer i'd

Carter 1:08:54

i'd have done it i i

Carter 1:08:56

can't go back and do it again i hope i never have to here's

Carter 1:09:00

here's what i know i

Carter 1:09:01

i wouldn't change anything, you

Carter 1:09:03

wouldn't have done anything.

Zain 1:09:10

Stephen. What tactics are you implementing?

Zain 1:09:14

Carter, what tactics are you implementing? Is this one where it's similar to your overarching strategy, less is more? Tactically, are you

Zain 1:09:24

proactively addressing this? Are you not jumping into it at all? Talk to me about how you think about tactics and then what a few of them might be.

Carter 1:09:32

just hope that he calls a hearing you

Carter 1:09:34

you know like try and get pierre paliev to try and dig into this every time and then all you do is

Carter 1:09:42

the exact same line you

Carter 1:09:44

you know i i i with better information i hope i never have to go back and do it again but

Carter 1:09:50

but here's what i know i

Carter 1:09:51

i i wouldn't change anything he

Carter 1:09:53

he wouldn't have done anything cory

Zain 1:09:55

cory you seem very impressed by carter which is Which is rare and fleeting on this show.

Corey 1:10:00

It's rare and fleeting. That's really good. That's it. And frankly, this

Corey 1:10:04

this is an interesting sort of window into communications more generally when you talk about tactics.

Corey 1:10:10

Often when somebody hits you with something, you've got this desire. It's based on pride. It's based on ego. It's to get out there and say your side. It's to talk about it. It's to fight on that turf. Of course.

Corey 1:10:21

Not always the right move, right? Sometimes it less is more. It's not about getting the op-ed out about how actually that $32 billion was well spent. It's not about putting out the news release that's talking about how good things were. It's having a response line like that, doing the stakeholder management you think you need to do, but that's it. You limit the conversation. I wouldn't change anything. He wouldn't have done anything. I like that.

Zain 1:10:46

Carter, does that also let you win the long

Zain 1:10:50

long-term legacy battle on the pandemic spending? or do you not care about that if you're advising the prime minister if the pm says but steven but steven this is what i was celebrated

Zain 1:11:00

celebrated for this they were they were cheering me on i won i won an election on the back of this this is i will be known for maybe this and child care and

Zain 1:11:12

and you're now telling me that i gotta minimize the conversation on it don't you think i need to win and solidify the legacy if if that were to be uh the

Zain 1:11:21

the prime minister's sort of talking point or even conversation with you what would you say to him you're

Carter 1:11:28

you're worried about legacy right now then step the fuck down boom

Corey 1:11:34

is fleeting isn't it zane you

Zain 1:11:37

remind me to never be prime minister carter

Carter 1:11:42

sorry give me my opinions on stuff like that no this

Zain 1:11:45

this is interesting i mean probably why

Zain 1:11:47

why cory you put your hand up you wanted to talk about this and we do have some time on the clock so because you guys have been so effective well

Carter 1:11:52

well it's been like six hours we've been on this podcast you got five

Zain 1:11:54

five minutes and 50 seconds cory so

Corey 1:11:57

i don't know if either of you guys have seen it's called dave it's from 1993 love dave it's really good yeah

Corey 1:12:03

yeah so here's this quote when he's talking to this boxer who he's trying to get to throw a fight he says the night of the fight you might feel a slight sting that's pride fucking with you fuck

Corey 1:12:13

fuck pride pride only hurts it never helps that would be my advice to the prime minister you want to really like yeah me too right but that was the last election this is the next election you do not want to be spending your time relitigating covid because the the relitigation is not likely to help you people will only remember the price tags because that's what they're dealing with today they dealt with the things you helped them with two years ago what have you done with them lately nicely

Carter 1:12:40

done of quoting dave more i think that people would respond better to my that's fucking stupid great

Zain 1:12:45

great multimodal movie it's just got everything all at once carter it's it's great of course this segment uh this great this segment of course brought to us by flare airlines flare airlines fuck pride uh

Zain 1:12:56

let's move on to

Corey 1:13:00

final segment our final segment are over under in our lightning round uh

Zain 1:13:04

uh i'll let you guys catch your breath uh nicely done on the strategy sprint i had several

Corey 1:13:09

several several more uh we could have made this a a four hour

Corey 1:13:12

sprinting zane real good well

Zain 1:13:14

well i put pause on i i wanted to give you two flabby white dudes some time off the clock uh as needed i know your stamina yeah isn't as good as mine uh so i thought i'd give you some some breaks some meandering conversations steven carter overrated or underrated i will start with you we do this for you by election records justin

Zain 1:13:35

justin trudeau is going to get added a one to the w column for all intents and purposes, it seems like this evening with Mississauga Lakeshore recouping that seat. But overall, by-election records, as it relates to a leader's record in by-election, is that marker overrated or underrated in your mind, Carter?

Carter 1:13:52

Overrated, significantly overrated. You can win by-elections. If you hold all your seats, good for you. If you lose all your seats, it doesn't really matter as long as you hold your government and

Carter 1:14:05

by elections you know governments

Carter 1:14:07

governments aren't lost in a by-election

Carter 1:14:10

for them to mean something when more often than not they

Carter 1:14:12

they don't mean very much at all so

Carter 1:14:15

think they're overrated i mean i like watching them uh you

Carter 1:14:18

you know eric grenier can do two or three four hour live shows on them uh

Carter 1:14:22

uh five six people

Carter 1:14:24

people watched it um

Carter 1:14:25

um you know good for

Corey 1:14:31

audio you've muted yourself yourself you suck

Corey 1:14:35

jesus christ you i don't know did

Corey 1:14:37

did we mention we hired him as a producer a little ago

Zain 1:14:45

jesus christ it's your bedtime uh cory by

Carter 1:14:49

it's really late by

Zain 1:14:50

by election records for leaders overrated or underrated cory hogan uh

Corey 1:14:54

uh i mean overrated For sure overrated. The thing is, it looks like right now you're going to have a situation where perhaps the conservatives did worse than they did in 2020.

Corey 1:15:06

possible at this point. Turnout's pretty low.

Corey 1:15:09

Neither of those facts looks particularly good for Pierre Poglia, right? It doesn't seem like there's a lot of antipathy or rage or motivation by voters. That doesn't necessarily suggest a government that's about to be voted out. And obviously, Obviously, if the result holds or comes close to holding, right now, I think the Liberals is up by 15 points instead

Corey 1:15:27

instead of, I think, five or six that they won by last time. Well, that wouldn't

Corey 1:15:31

wouldn't be very good for Pierre Poullier. But we

Corey 1:15:33

we all could think of a thousand counterexamples. I think about those by-elections that were held in 2014 before the 2015 election here in Alberta, provincially.

Corey 1:15:43

And yeah, the PCs won all of them. And then they lost their 40-year dynasty the next year. Like, it doesn't mean a lot, especially this far out from an election. I

Corey 1:15:55

I do think in general, because

Corey 1:15:58

because people are used to governments being dinged in by-elections, that in some ways the risk is more on the opposition side. Like, when you deeply underperform as an opposition leader, that can quite

Corey 1:16:10

to a bunch of murmurs and whispers and conversations in the caucuses. And again, I'll use that 2014 by-election in Alberta.

Corey 1:16:18

Wild Rose wasn't super happy with their result. Well, it wasn't that much later after that that Danielle Smith crossed the floor to the government,

Corey 1:16:26

you know, in her kind of second act of politics, her first being the school board, unceremoniously

Corey 1:16:31

unceremoniously dropped from by the minister. So, you know, like they can create murmurs when you underperform as an opposition. I think governments are a lot better at brushing them off and saying no big

Zain 1:16:43

Corey, in or out on this next question, we're going to stick with these by-elections because there was an interesting wrinkle or activist element to this by-election in Mississauga where activists loaded up the ballot with about 40 candidates, independent candidates, to kind of fuck with Trudeau and the liberals for breaking their promise on electoral reform. So they're not successful. The liberals have won this seat. But are you in or out on this strategy as using the ballot, using the actual election as a mechanism for activism and advocacy to make a point? They got the headlines. They got the pre sort of election sort of conversation going in certain circles. Are you in or out on this strategy? Give me your take. Well,

Corey 1:17:24

Well, I'm out because what was the point we were trying to make? It didn't fucking work. There's like 35 independents and I think combined they'll get 1% of the vote here. And this is a race that was not within 1%. It looks like it's going to be 15%, 10 to 15% we'll say if things tighten up here. So you

Corey 1:17:42

have to be careful with tactics like this, like interesting gimmicks, interesting to get the media, but ultimately, it's a pretty good case study for voters are not that confused, and they're actually pretty good at voting strategically about the options that seem to have a chance at the end of the day. This did not drown out the liberals in any way, shape, or form. If anything, I would guess it split the NDP vote, right?

Zain 1:18:05

they try to fuck with the liberals by throwing 40 or so candidates as a tension grabber, a underlining of Trudeau's broken promises on electoral reform. Are you in or out on the strategy? We now know the outcome, so a little bit easier to play Monday evening quarterback, but are you in or out on using the ballot as a form of activism? pessimism i'm

Carter 1:18:26

i'm in on the strategy and the reason i'm in on the strategy zane is that i

Carter 1:18:31

i think that electoral reform activists are amongst the stupidest people on the fucking planet so

Carter 1:18:39

you know absolutely decimated through their tactic like this makes me very happy so

Carter 1:18:44

so i think they should do more things like this where 30 or 40 of them and i think there are only 30 or 40 of them in every riding i noted that there were like i some of those activists even seem to get votes from themselves uh this is a tragic decision really bad idea and uh it does nothing to promote their agenda so obviously i'm in on it wow

Zain 1:19:07

look at this carter seems to be on a runner's high here after uh i feel like this is this swagger only happens after you land a message like i would would have changed nothing and he would have done nothing listen

Carter 1:19:17

listen to me in the podcast i take no

Zain 1:19:23

take me cory you want to respond to this i've got like 50 other questions go ahead yes go ahead

Corey 1:19:27

ahead here's the other problem when you're saying oh it would have been good if we had proportional representation it's possible i won't even say likely yet but the liberals currently sitting at 51.2 percent of vote they're gonna get a majority of the vote like that's a totally irrelevant point. You should have run this tactic in a riding where the person wins with 25% of the vote.

Corey 1:19:49

This is the wrong riding to run that. This was just getting greedy and saying there's a by-election coming and we're going to do that. But this is historically a two-way race. Find one that's a three-way race or a four-way race. Make your point there if you want to talk about the risks of vote splitting. That would have caused everybody to have anxiety.

Corey 1:20:07

That doesn't make any sense.

Zain 1:20:09

Carter, are you in or out? Chris in cinema. becoming an independent senator in the state of Arizona, in or out?

Carter 1:20:15

I'm out because it makes her chances of staying a senator higher.

Zain 1:20:21

Corey, be in or out on her moving to an independent position, still caucusing with the Democrats, but becoming an independent senator in

Zain 1:20:29

state of Arizona. Well,

Corey 1:20:30

Well, I've always been a fan of truth in labeling laws, so I'm just fine with it. It's not like she was much of a Democrat to begin with.

Zain 1:20:40

your perspective, are you in or out on Jagmeet Singh once again threatening to withdraw his support in the liberal NDP coalition, this time on healthcare? We discussed it. After you guys developed a strategy on it, are you in or out on what he did, which then kind of let us move forward and not necessarily relitigate what he did, but are you in or out on what he did to begin

Corey 1:21:01

If you'd asked me before that session, I would have said out, but I think I'm in. I think he could make this work for him.

Zain 1:21:07

Carter, are you in or out on Jagmeet Singh and his threat again to withdraw support?

Carter 1:21:12

No, I mean, Corey's exactly right. He could make this work for him, but he's

Carter 1:21:16

he's Jagmeet Singh, so he won't make this work for him. So I am out.

Zain 1:21:23

Carter, your final piece of advice as we finish off this episode to opposing parties in Alberta here as it relates to the Sovereignty Act. It is now passed, barring royal assent and such. Dutch. We talked about Daniel Smith's strategy. What would you advise to those that, whether it be third party groups, whether it be opposing political parties, as they talk about the sovereignty acts here in Alberta?

Carter 1:21:46

Well, I would talk about being Canadian, what it means to be Canadian, what it means to, you

Carter 1:21:54

to benefit from the entire

Carter 1:21:59

That's what I would talk about, because that's what I think we

Carter 1:22:01

we care about. We don't want this to

Carter 1:22:03

to be a slippery slope to

Zain 1:22:10

what would you talk about now that the Sovereignty Act has officially passed? Are you moving on to other topics? Are you still keeping this and volleying it alive? What were your general advice and then your more specific advice as we ran out the episode?

Corey 1:22:22

I am so fatigued by the Sovereignty Act. I'm so fatigued by the discussion around it. It just kind of is

Corey 1:22:28

is depressing. Yeah, see, at this point, I just want somebody – I

Corey 1:22:32

I hate this limbo we're in. I hope that there's a way that we can pull it to the courts quickly, and I have no more opinions left to give on this particular piece of legislation. Although, hey, Carter, we should definitely stick around after Zane leaves to talk about what his mother-in-law should do.

Carter 1:22:47

Oh, yeah, for sure, yeah.

Corey 1:22:49

Don't know what you're talking about. You

Carter 1:22:50

You know what, though?

Carter 1:22:51

Let's not record it unless

Carter 1:22:52

unless it's for the patrons.

Zain 1:22:56

That's good. you're at the one hour 40 minute mark yeah you're making those

Corey 1:22:59

those wanting the most compelling

Zain 1:23:01

compelling point you've made all episode on not selling patreon subscriptions nicely done carter we're gonna leave it there that's a wrap on episode 10 20 of the strategist my name is zane velgey with me as always whenever he can stephen carter cory hogan and we'll see you next time

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