Transcript
SPEAKER_00
0:06
Welcome to Balance of Power. I'm Annalise Klingbeil. I'm Leah Ward. I'm Shannon Phillips. And today we're going to talk about Alberta separatism, including new polling and First Nations leaders weighing in, and Edmonton Community League on the brink of closure and what it means for both democracy and third spaces in these wild times. and lastly Canada's new national automotive strategy and reaction from environmental groups and labor let's
SPEAKER_01
0:33
let's get into it should we also talk I'm there
SPEAKER_01
0:36
there was a lot of rumors and gossip about an early election should we talk about that too
Shannon
0:41
too we like we should talk about it is
SPEAKER_00
0:43
is it happening there were
SPEAKER_01
0:44
were rumors and gossip I don't want to mess with your very well crafted lineup no gossip Gossip always comes first. You
SPEAKER_00
0:52
You know this. Is it happening? What are your thoughts on a early federal election?
Shannon
1:01
I mean, I'm curious what Shannon thinks. Well,
Shannon
1:04
Well, the thing was kind of leaked out, right? Of some kind of internal conversation between Ford and Carney. So my first question whenever you read this stuff is who has a motivation to leak this out and to go and run and talk to Bob Fyfe? That's
Shannon
1:18
That's the first question.
Shannon
1:20
And I'm not really sure, like, I actually can't put my finger on whose benefit this is, because by all accounts, Carney and Pallieva are trying to work out some sort of, oh, I don't know, costly coalition. I believe we heard that word a lot in the last parliament. And so it doesn't really make sense to me, Leah. Like, figure it out for me. Like,
Shannon
1:45
same. I'm thinking similar.
SPEAKER_01
1:47
Like, I'm asking myself similar questions. questions. I guess what I, here's
Shannon
1:51
here's where I've gotten. So go
Shannon
1:54
go with me here for a minute. If right
Shannon
1:56
right now we have Pierre Poiliev who does not want an election, you
Shannon
2:01
know, liberals are higher in the polls. He's not doing great. He's less
Shannon
2:07
less popular than his party. He
Shannon
2:09
He obviously just got through a leadership review quite well, but up until last week, you know, things were feeling feeling a bit unsteady for him. I think, and
SPEAKER_01
2:19
and then I think what we saw after the conservative convention was a real attempt to look cooperative,
Shannon
2:26
so as to not give the Carney government a
Shannon
2:29
a reason to call an early election.
Shannon
2:33
the speculation going, I think helps to, I think from the from Carney side, helps sort of keep conservatives in line and interested in cooperating
SPEAKER_01
2:46
so that the threat of an election sort of uh polices that that cooperation and they can get their budget implementation bill passed you
SPEAKER_00
2:53
you think it's speculation to keep people in line and
Shannon
2:57
and a bunch of other shit through committee because there's so much stuff stuck in committee right because the the conservatives are still being obstructionist uh you know like little
Shannon
3:07
little tantrum people at committee they're not letting things through so don't you think even maybe it it helps even
SPEAKER_00
3:13
even just like the thought of an election like the headlines and people are like oh my goodness it's February we just went through this like April was not that long ago I
SPEAKER_01
3:23
think it's also can function sometimes as a good trial balloon right so you to Shannon's earlier point you
Shannon
3:30
you know you leak that conversation and
Shannon
3:33
and then you sort of test the public reaction to it and you get a sense of whether or not so Carney's like probably thinking about it or at least being advised to think about it right
Shannon
3:42
right but it would be hard to gauge you
Shannon
3:44
you know outside of polling which is you know point in time doesn't take into account what an actual campaign would look like what
Shannon
3:52
what trump might trump in
SPEAKER_01
3:54
in the you know over the course so i think sometimes it's worth and and this is something i wish uh philips we had done more in government uh
SPEAKER_01
4:02
uh was throw things out and trial pull in them that way yeah
Shannon
4:05
yeah oh as opposed to just marching ahead and doing whatever we wanted uh polls be be damned and uh fuck the public we're gonna do what we like why
SPEAKER_00
4:13
why didn't you leah like was there was there people pushing to do it to trial i don't
Shannon
4:19
don't remember there being a lot of conversations where that was i think we were in all honesty just trying really hard to do our best and we weren't we weren't necessarily thinking like no
Shannon
4:30
no one had time to sit back and think i maybe you didn't i don't know maybe you guys had conversations that i didn't or didn't have time for but i
Shannon
4:38
had I had two little kids and was running a wholesale reimagining of the industrial economy. So no, I had the time to think. The one time that I remember that we did move some stuff out via the Globe and Mail was around electricity when those companies sued us.
Shannon
4:55
Yeah, it's true. It would be unfair to say we didn't do it at all. Yeah, I can't think of another example, but I'm sure there were moments where
Shannon
5:04
where we would have used that as a tactic. But I think there's lots more we could have. I also think we were like
Shannon
5:09
like really, really careful not
Shannon
5:12
not to undercut our own credibility.
SPEAKER_01
5:14
And so to put something out that we might have to defend or walk back that might take us off message. Like these are things you do actually have to think about if you're going to if you're going to leak something.
SPEAKER_00
5:23
On the trial balloon stuff, do you think some of it to putting it out there, gauging and then when to your point about Trump, Leah, when Trump trumps down the road, you may have to pull that trigger. Like, that may be the reason that
SPEAKER_00
5:36
that you blame it on. And right now it's just kind of testing the waters.
SPEAKER_01
5:40
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the calculation, right? Carney needs a moment in time where he can blame Donald Trump for calling an early election. And
Shannon
5:46
And Pierre Poiliev needs a moment in time where he can blame Carney
Shannon
5:52
Carney for, like, doing it unnecessarily or opportunistically.
Shannon
5:58
you know, those moments are not going to be the
SPEAKER_00
6:01
Interesting times. Okay, let's get into, we'll move away from the gossip and get into the topics of today, though there will be more gossip throughout. We can't launch a political podcast this week featuring three people who have worked in politics here in Alberta without talking about separation. There's so many angles to this one. Frankly, it feels like it's been in the news too much, which is part of what I want to discuss. There was new polling yesterday, on Monday, from Angus Reid showing two-thirds of Albertans surveyed would vote to stay in Canada or would lean that way. And approximately 29% of Albertans say they would vote for Alberta to leave Canada if there were a referendum today. Most in that group, 21%, say they are leaning that way rather than definite in their choice, which was 8%.
SPEAKER_00
6:50
also part of the conversation we can put on the table is that recently a coalition of seven first nations chiefs gathered at a press conference in edmonton to speak about separation and to ask albertans to stand with them and oppose a petition that could lead alberta to become the 51st state the message was clear alberta is treaty land first and foremost and any separation talk that ignores that is
SPEAKER_00
7:11
is not just politically misguided it's unconstitutional it threatens the very foundation of Confederation.
SPEAKER_00
7:17
Lots to dig into here. Let's start with, I think, something on everyone's mind. Shannon, I'll throw it to you. How worried should we be? Like this new polling, 29%, yes, not all of them are definite, but 29%, I feel like it was lower than that a month ago.
SPEAKER_00
7:37
How does 30 turn into 51 and how worried should we be? Put me at ease, Shannon. uh
Shannon
7:44
no i'm not gonna do that i i am i go i'm on a little bit of a roller coaster on this one but i think it's i said this on strategists i think it's increasingly evident we're gonna have a referendum regardless of whatever the signature
Shannon
7:56
signature people are doing um
Shannon
7:58
um and i am really concerned about this this sort of drumbeat and the intellectual uh underpinnings of why we should remain uh canadian i haven't seen the articulation of it i think the chiefs moving out some arguments is a good start uh and i do think from indigenous voices to be talking about the economic uh knock on effects is really important because you know it's uh their relationship is with the big crown not the little one uh and that means uh that uh you know all kinds of different right of access and just economic activity on the landscape depends on that Indigenous-Big Crown relationship.
Shannon
8:40
And to destabilize that is so, so dangerous for just orderly economic activity in the province. I think we need to start moving some of those foundational arguments out into the public.
Shannon
8:59
a little concerned that I haven't seen them. well from everybody you know like i i don't care if it's at the level of op-ed at this point i think that's fine uh
Shannon
9:07
uh because i i want to hear why uh it's so dangerous to be indulging anything that comes out of these guys mouths i
Shannon
9:18
like these separatists are racist right so we need to also like engage in
SPEAKER_01
9:23
in some of this go
SPEAKER_01
9:24
go ahead leah well
SPEAKER_01
9:25
well i mean like i think i think there's a a couple things going on i think that there are people who like
Shannon
9:31
phillips when you talk about sort of like editorials or op-eds like there's people who
SPEAKER_01
9:37
who might share demographic criteria that we share who would benefit from arguments
Shannon
9:43
arguments they can use in conversation and
Shannon
9:46
and that's where i think the mainstream media can be helpful or even like editorials can be can be helpful in that way and And I agree, it would be nice to see more
Shannon
9:53
more of that. Although I think to
Shannon
9:56
to their credit, most reporters offer
Shannon
9:59
offer it at least alongside. So it's not entirely absent. But what's missing, and I think what we've also seen in polling, is that those who would lean towards voting yes to separation are
Shannon
10:12
are compelled by the
Shannon
10:14
the negative consequences of that. They are dissuaded. And
Shannon
10:18
And what the separatist
SPEAKER_01
10:20
separatist movement has done, I think, so effectively is they have gone to community. They're
Shannon
10:27
They're part of community.
SPEAKER_01
10:30
community. They're having conversations about a large swath of issues that matter to people locally. and they're
Shannon
10:36
they're able to create a sense of togetherness around
Shannon
10:41
around a particular issue or around a set of issues where this becomes one of a
Shannon
10:47
a group of things that create local identity and
Shannon
10:50
that's really really hard to fight in the in
SPEAKER_01
10:54
the pages of a newspaper it needs to happen i mean because it kind of with his bus did did a version of this and i think probably that's why he was so successful but But, you know, these things have to happen, like,
Shannon
11:07
like, face-to-face, neighbor-to-neighbor in conversation.
Shannon
11:11
I hear you, Leah, but I have yet to hear some of those, you know, top-line numbers. We will lose X-tillion billion. We will lose access to our pensions. We will lose our health care. Shannon, we're
SPEAKER_00
11:24
we're not going to lose access to our pensions. Pensions will just get converted to U.S. dollars.
Shannon
11:31
Like, well, I mean, we need some of these pushback on the magic bean. I
SPEAKER_00
11:34
I heard that yesterday from like a friend of a friend was talking to his brother who's deep in this. And he's like, my pension will be converted to U.S. dollars. And my friend was like, you don't have a pension.
SPEAKER_02
11:43
like, doesn't matter if
SPEAKER_00
11:45
if I did U.S. dollars. And I want to hit on that because it did talk in the polling about
SPEAKER_00
11:51
where folks are getting their information from. Obviously, I always go to the communications aspect of it. but folks who want Alberta to stay in Canada are getting their information from mainstream media and from social media.
SPEAKER_00
12:02
Half of those who would vote to leave told Angus Reid their information is coming from family and friends and alternative media sources. I put that in quotes because that's what Angus Reid has labeled it. But talk to me about that communication. To your point, Leah, these people are on the ground talking
SPEAKER_00
12:20
talking about it face to face from the family and friends. Is that not so much more effective than the mainstream media on an issue like this?
SPEAKER_01
12:30
It's incredibly powerful, yeah.
SPEAKER_01
12:32
Especially as trust, sadly, like I don't celebrate this, but trust in media and government and politicians continues to decline. Those
Shannon
12:44
going to someone in your community, a family member, a trusted voice, clergy,
Shannon
12:50
that becomes a much superior source of information and credibility. than than anything we could put out uh on
SPEAKER_01
12:57
on the airwaves so
Shannon
12:59
so one of the things i think about with this is how we did cpp um
Shannon
13:03
and you know the the ndp was in the 30s uh in the fall of 23 and the government went into a cpp fight spent eight million dollars um advertising
Shannon
13:13
advertising on alberta bad pension plan and by march of 24 in
Shannon
13:17
in the lege anyway the ndp had come up like six eight points something something like that. And I mean, nothing else was going on. So I can only attribute it to that drumbeat of CPP. And part of what was so helpful in that campaign, and I know I shouldn't be fighting the last war, but I think about this a lot.
Shannon
13:35
it is like every single one of the government of Alberta's arguments was rebutted in some way through the mainstream media, through through, you know, academic analyses, through reporting, through the NDP, through, you know, other seniors groups, what have you. And what you ended up with was a whole bunch of Albertans who were armed with what I call backyard barbecue arguments. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02
14:02
that water cooler stuff.
Shannon
14:02
stuff. Who were able to push back on my pension is going to get converted to USD, right, fever dreams, extremes who had who were armed and I don't I am concerned that we're not really armed right now I think the chiefs can start to arm people I think that the business community can start to arm people I think cultural figures should start to arm people I
Shannon
14:28
I don't I don't feel armed myself right
SPEAKER_01
14:30
right now do you
Shannon
14:30
what's how do you get to a hockey rink
Shannon
14:32
rink in Battle River Crowfoot do
SPEAKER_00
14:34
do you think we're hearing from the and I full disclosure on the chiefs and I know Shannon you want to talk talk about the Chiefs. I was hesitant. So my communications
SPEAKER_00
14:42
communications business helped the Chiefs get their voice out on the national stage. It wasn't my fault. It was my business partners. But his week right after the presser was like arranging interviews with the Wall Street Journal and The Guardian, like international news that wanted to write about this because there's so much meat to the story. I personally, obviously, I'm biased, think the voice is so essential to this. But where are the others? Where is the business voice on this?
SPEAKER_02
15:11
leah that's the thing i
Shannon
15:14
i think you know during sovereignty act when danielle was first elected leader and she brought in the sovereignty act right away because she ran on it the
Shannon
15:21
the business community was all over it like stink on a monkey right they were just everywhere uh i you you saw the chamber the business council all kinds of other uh voices uh you know prominent business people saying this is a bad idea and this is going to destabilize the investment climate we haven't seen that and
Shannon
15:39
and in fact it's almost like they're afraid i
SPEAKER_00
15:41
i think we saw something from alberta chambers does
SPEAKER_00
15:44
does that ring a bell i thought there was there was a number where there was something from alberta chambers of commerce but like locally in calgary at co i think said something
Shannon
15:54
yeah she usually does right um but like i haven't really seen that drumbeat in the same way that
Shannon
16:03
we did see it through cpp we did see it through sovereignty act we haven't seen it yet why do they are midterm though right well i mean they've got a couple of years left in their term well a year and a half i guess you
Shannon
16:15
you think businesses are waiting it out well
Shannon
16:17
well i think they're waiting it out and i think they also have got it's possible they have business before the government and they think that this is just gonna like this is a bit of a fit and it'll pass but
SPEAKER_00
16:26
but there's also voices that would normally i
SPEAKER_00
16:29
i think would normally have some numbers or some data to to add to this, that have been handicapped
SPEAKER_00
16:34
handicapped by the fact that they were put on the Alberta Next panel, which was super intentional, right?
SPEAKER_00
16:41
Like this is the, I don't know how much I want to name names here, but there's people on that panel that would normally be sharing a lot of information that people could then use for those backyard barbecue conversations, right?
Shannon
16:54
Well, certainly Trevor Toome was during CPP and he was put on the Alberta Next panel. We haven't heard boo out of him. Although Although I did notice last week he did put out a cost of separation. So if he's starting to start his engines back up, then great. Keep it up, Trevor. More power to him. We need more of that, not less.
SPEAKER_00
17:12
What's the role of big
SPEAKER_00
17:14
big city and I guess small city? I'm thinking like Calgary, Edmonton, Lethbridge, Medicine, Hatch, Grand
SPEAKER_00
17:21
Grand Prairie, in Alberta of mayors. mayors counselors especially those that lean perhaps more conservative that maybe have good relationships with daniel smith in the province what what would your advice be for them how do they you
SPEAKER_00
17:39
tread the relationship that they have with the premier while being
SPEAKER_00
17:43
being adamant that Alberta needs to stay in Canada?
Shannon
17:48
for me, I think, like we have heard both NAC and Farkas have made
SPEAKER_01
17:54
made their position clear. I think maybe that's a different question in terms of making
SPEAKER_01
17:59
making clear your position versus being an active player
Shannon
18:02
player in the conversation. So I'll
Shannon
18:04
I'll kind of lean into the second. You
SPEAKER_01
18:07
if we trace back sort of like what is driving this sentiment? What
Shannon
18:11
What is making people want
SPEAKER_01
18:13
want to consider a drastic move like separating. And it comes from legitimate
Shannon
18:17
legitimate or otherwise feelings of unfairness
Shannon
18:25
or not realizing, you know, like their potential or how they imagine their
Shannon
18:31
their life and family going, fewer
SPEAKER_01
18:34
fewer job prospects, economic uncertainty. I mean, I mean, it comes from those places. And I
Shannon
18:40
local leaders can offer that
Shannon
18:44
might be better positioned to sort of get at that root cause is to offer pride
Shannon
18:48
pride of place and
Shannon
18:50
and a sense of movement,
SPEAKER_01
18:52
movement, a sense of sort of making life better or why we ought to continue trying, at least at the local level. I think that's
Shannon
19:00
that's something that's particularly unique to what local leaders can offer. for
SPEAKER_00
19:05
kind of do you think even like a like wearing a canada flag pin like are there subtle like choices in dress or walking the lines in the way you speak about it they can still be like raw raw canada alberta should be part of canada or just just come out and say it really boldly i
Shannon
19:24
mean they can uh do all of those things the other thing that they can do is is again to the the economic argument they can talk about uh you know all of the investment that they're looking forward to that uh either people are starting to hesitate or uh you know investment inquiries that uh now have this little asterisk or footnote attached to them or or uh you know explain to me how scared i should be about the investment climate in this province that's just going to start to happen i know it's already happening and mayors are uniquely and councils are uniquely positioned to be able to receive some of that on the ground information and then share it to the point about, you know, yes, they can do nice things about why we should continue to be part of the Federation, but they can also be part of the negative consequences explaining the stakes because that's the piece that has, for me, been missing is who is telling me about the stakes of of this right
Shannon
20:24
right right now all i have is oh well maybe i'll get a better deal out of ottawa if i threaten them and
Shannon
20:29
and that seems like the stakes then redound to maybe i should be separatist curious
Shannon
20:34
yeah or even you're nodding i mean i can't think maybe
Shannon
20:37
maybe one of you has an example of where there's a project or a program or something that that
Shannon
20:43
that is felt and experienced locally but tied to federal federal support and to articulate where oh yeah i have a
SPEAKER_00
20:50
a big hospital that
SPEAKER_00
20:51
that well okay poke some holes i don't think people believe that
SPEAKER_00
20:56
poke some holes in this
Shannon
20:57
oh this is a massive federal transfer we could start talking about it right
Shannon
21:00
right we could talk about the billions upon billions that come into this province for the health transfer and the social transfer i mean
SPEAKER_01
21:06
mean however true that is i think the equalization argument and the miss and disinformation around what
Shannon
21:12
what goes where and how how much, kind
SPEAKER_01
21:15
kind of obliterates that argument. I mean, maybe I'm wrong or being overly cynical. I just think that people
SPEAKER_01
21:22
people will think, they'll simplify that and think that if we are no longer
Shannon
21:27
paying into, I'm making air quotes, equalization,
Shannon
21:33
more than compensates for that federal transfer.
Shannon
21:36
think it's time to start, actually. Like, nobody's talked about federal transfers. Nobody's talked about OAS and GIS for seniors. years nobody's talked about the child care agreements nobody's talked about the transit agreements you know what i'm saying like
Shannon
21:47
like and when you add it all up um
Shannon
21:49
um like i think that people just don't understand the stakes yet sean
SPEAKER_00
21:53
sean and our pensions in
SPEAKER_00
21:55
in in those non-existent pensions in american dollars okay last one on this but just poke some holes in this uh this theory that i have so maybe it's the calgary bubble that i'm in but people are talking a lot about the olympics right now olympics are happening calgary could have been on the 2026 didn't happen referendum people are longing for a alternate world universe where the olympics would have been here in calgary right now which there's absolutely no snow it was like 18 degrees all last week anyways do you think the 2038 olympics is
SPEAKER_00
22:27
is what we need as yet another distraction but a way to keep alberta in canada because there's this chatter in Calgary like should we bid on the 2038 who could be the face of it what was learned from last time and if that goes forward how how do you do the Calgary
SPEAKER_00
22:48
it's the Calgary Canada Olympics not Calgary Alberta Olympics talk to me about this is the is the Olympics gonna save this to Baylia has
Shannon
22:55
has the Olympics ever saved anything no never
Shannon
22:59
never I mean I can't help but cry at the Tim Hortons commercials though so I'm not gonna I can't slag too hard on the Olympics, but I think this is so fascinating. I was having this conversation with some of my colleagues recently
Shannon
23:12
about sort of the politics and economics of the Olympics and the push, Russia's push to
Shannon
23:18
to get back in and
Shannon
23:20
and where Trump will
Shannon
23:21
will want to accommodate.
SPEAKER_01
23:25
the position then that puts Canada, so
Shannon
23:27
so maybe Annalise, the
SPEAKER_01
23:30
the Olympics in Calgary would actually be the impetus to separate Alberta and make it part of the United States, because I
SPEAKER_00
23:38
I don't know how we solved that problem. The opposite. The opposite. Okay. Shannon, is it? I just, I
Shannon
23:43
I mean, my God, the IOC is so fucking corrupt for starters, right? I know, I totally agree with you.
Shannon
23:50
Which is, I guess, aligned in some ways with the way that this government does business. But you'd have to get some kind of support from the province for starters. But I think the larger thing that I would say on this is no one's coming to save us.
Shannon
24:05
There is no sulfur bullet. The Olympics are
Shannon
24:08
are coming to save us, Shannon. And there isn't one thing that's going to solve this, to Leah's point about where it comes from and what has been feeding it for the last decade, right, around natural resource policy, making it seem so existential that you have to burn down the whole country over a 30 cent per barrel carbon tax. um like and that those that is how things have been packaged by the conservative right for a long time let's name who has done this uh and who you know and and jason kenney now can go
Shannon
24:39
go around being sad that the country's being torn apart but he did it uh for you know a decade uh so um now we are in this particular pickle and i do not think an orgy of bribery uh and graft is actually going to fix the problem.
SPEAKER_00
24:59
But it can get
SPEAKER_00
24:59
more infrastructure, Shannon. It's funny because last time around, I was very anti-Olympics, very. But
SPEAKER_00
25:08
But now that I have little kids and
SPEAKER_00
25:11
and Calgary needs so much infrastructure, maybe it's not the worst idea in the world. So I don't know. Okay, last words on this, just for those listening, not last words on the Olympics, on the separation issue, you i'm sure we will continue to discuss it but for those listening who are like me feeling helpless and worried about that 30 and that 30 becoming 35 40 45 50 what like give give me some advice give listeners some advice on what they can go out and do i
SPEAKER_01
25:45
mean i shannon i know you you've been saying like talking about the risk so i i want to pick up on that because
Shannon
25:51
because i think what the the biggest risk here is
Shannon
26:00
take seriously the possibility of a referendum landing
Shannon
26:05
landing on the yes side that
SPEAKER_01
26:07
that the motivation of
SPEAKER_01
26:08
of the separatist will be will far exceed the motivation of the pro-canada group and
Shannon
26:16
that's that's where i think we that like that's the sort of part
Shannon
26:20
of all of this that I think scares me the most is that we end up with a Brexit situation where nobody really takes it seriously. And then all of a sudden, oh my God, we've done it.
Shannon
26:32
if we imagine ways
Shannon
26:34
ways of motivating the pro-Canada side,
SPEAKER_01
26:38
it probably is around what you could lose, what's at risk, what the personal cost is. Maybe it's another CPP campaign maybe
Shannon
26:47
maybe it's just like the closer you get to someone's pocketbook the closer it or the the the stronger that motivation gets i've been thinking about that
Shannon
26:54
that too what's your advice two like things people can do right now so
Shannon
26:58
so forever canada or forever canadian uh thomas lucasic's outfit are out there doing essentially like sign up to support us for
Shannon
27:06
for the inevitable whatever happens later right
Shannon
27:09
right in terms of uh uh you know uh well
Shannon
27:12
well depends on the the question and And if it's a clear
Shannon
27:16
clear question and so on, which I'm sure it won't be, but
Shannon
27:18
but to sign up to be on the pro-Canada side. So people can do that. They can do it right now.
Shannon
27:24
The other thing is there is an active petition around coal in the eastern slopes. And a lot of these are the same volunteers that were doing signature collection for
Shannon
27:36
for Forever Canadian, but not necessarily so. And when you plug into this, you know, you're helping to get that petition or that Citizens Initiative referendum happening. But
Shannon
27:49
But the other thing you're doing is getting to know the people that inevitably you will be working with on
Shannon
27:54
on the no separation or yes to Canada, whatever it ends up
Shannon
27:59
up being. Are you saying lock them in a room together?
SPEAKER_02
28:02
volunteer. I'm saying just go make
Shannon
28:05
i will and because inevitably you will get your reps in right because
Shannon
28:09
because politics especially at the ground level and organizing level is about getting your reps in figuring out who you can get along with who you can't uh figuring out who's who in your community uh and who's gonna who's got you know the the sort of get shit done ethic and who doesn't uh
Shannon
28:24
uh and those are right there for all of us right all albertans so and i guess the third thing that people could do is if there's an an Ontario person that feels like they should help you should tell them to fuck off and know in certain terms I'll
SPEAKER_00
28:36
I'll uh I'll pick up on your go volunteer thread Shannon because it's a wonderful segue to our next topic this one is niche um but stay with me I find it fascinating so media in Edmonton recently covered a story about the King Edward Park Community League how it's on the verge of closing because they just can't find enough volunteers to keep it going there's no big scandal Just people who are exhausted and no one coming up behind them. They've been a few people short of a full board for quite a while now. And they've told media if they don't fill the board at their upcoming February 22nd meeting, they'll have to close. Last year, the Twinbrooks Community League in Edmonton paused operations, including its skating rink, until it could recruit enough volunteers. In Calgary, we call them community associations, not leagues. I've had the pleasure
SPEAKER_00
29:24
pleasure and frustration of serving on one for a couple of years. Basically, for those unfamiliar in cities like Calgary and Edmonton, there's like upwards of 150 community associations or league that are all volunteers. Volunteers serving capacities ranging from like events to fundraisers, organizing the community garden, flooding the skating rink to upkeep and maintenance in Calgary of city owned like facilities. So it's no small task for a bunch of volunteers who know
SPEAKER_00
29:53
know little about or have any interest in being a landlord of a crumbling facility. When I was on my
SPEAKER_00
29:59
my community association, they're as strong as their volunteers. If there's someone who is retired and has a lot of time and a passion, their
SPEAKER_00
30:08
their events can be really great because that person is doing it as essentially a full-time job. um I'm so interested in the story uh of a potential community league closure because it's such a statement I think on the times we live in um when a lack of volunteers and engagement is a widespread problem it's also a time when loneliness is high um third spaces are are um not what they used to be people are on our phones a lot so let's talk about this Shannon you were were just talking about going out and volunteering you obviously have a lot of experience with people volunteering for you what
SPEAKER_00
30:45
what when you heard about what was happening with this community league in edmonton what were your thoughts community
Shannon
30:50
community leagues in edmonton are unlike anything i've ever seen in any other urban space i mean there might be other cities who have this but edmonton is renowned for its community league uh culture and uh these are places that have real infrastructure structure and are real anchors and and you know some community leagues have hosted you know child care facilities and other things like real community anchors not just a place where you can you know book uh for a little uh you know a smallish wedding or those kinds of things but actual like fully functioning uh contributors to you know the local economy and the local community um
Shannon
31:26
i i you know these things are are cyclical though and it goes with the neighborhood too So a lot of these established neighborhoods in Edmonton, you're seeing, you know, the property values go up. So you might be seeing younger families going out to live, you know, way out in the vinyl siding suburbs because they can't afford to live in areas that are in the established neighborhoods. And the people who can are
Shannon
31:47
are maybe, you know, aging boomers or these kinds of people who, frankly, don't have the time or inclination. Or if it is a place with young people, I
Shannon
31:57
I mean, I just watched my sister and I'm like, I'm kind of through it. My kids are teenagers now. But when you have little kids, volunteering is not high on the list. And if there is volunteering to be done, it's generally by women and it's down at the school to patch some of the holes in our crumbling education system.
Shannon
32:16
there's lots of drivers for this, but at a minimum, in a place like King Edward, I would think that, you know, some targeted canvassing, some, you know, in order to bring people to a community event to talk about it would be the first thing that I would do. And I honestly, like,
Shannon
32:33
like, the volunteer culture and things have changed over the years. It's changed in the party. It's changed in nonprofits and charitable organizations that I've been sort of adjacent to a lot. And I know in the party, you end up having to pay people to do things.
Shannon
32:49
Has it always been like that, Shanna? It's fine.
Shannon
32:52
No, no. I mean, not back in the day. day, but increasingly, you
Shannon
32:57
you know, unless the people are retired, you kind of have to compensate them a little bit. I don't think that's a terrible thing, right?
Shannon
33:06
you know, people's economic life being what it is.
SPEAKER_01
33:10
said cyclical, like when would you have observed a decline in volunteerism or community leagues facing
SPEAKER_01
33:16
facing these kinds of troubles? I mean, I could have googled this, but do
SPEAKER_01
33:20
do you have a memory?
Shannon
33:21
Well, in the last 10 years, a lot of them have really struggled, old i think but uh and it
Shannon
33:27
it you know and i think some of them are like they have different kinds of infrastructure and they're embedded in the communities differently too right they're not just like one kind of uh vibe like they don't all have a hockey rink or they don't all you know have a like some of them have larger or smaller halls that kind of stuff i
Shannon
33:44
i mean i i think like Like, I'm always torn in
Shannon
33:48
in moments like this between sort of where we hold governments
Shannon
33:53
governments responsible for providing public services well,
Shannon
33:58
and where we embrace sort of volunteerism and community activism, both incredibly important, right? Right. Like I don't
Shannon
34:07
take for granted the need to be together to, you know, to build shared meaning and community.
SPEAKER_01
34:14
That's deeply important. And, you know, I think kind of foundational to democratic participation. and
Shannon
34:23
makes me uncomfortable about often
Shannon
34:26
often how people talk about these moments is that it
Shannon
34:28
it ends up landing as additional pressure on
SPEAKER_01
34:34
people and families who are incredibly squeezed right now right like the middle class is they're taking out extra jobs there's
Shannon
34:41
there's no time to your point young kids young kids plus can't
Shannon
34:46
can't afford rent don't know if they'll be able to buy buy a home or keep their home. I mean, these are big things. Aging parents. Aging parents. Exactly. Boomers, who you're right, would have been, like this is another interesting thing to watch in terms of a cycle,
Shannon
35:00
yeah, would have had a lot of time and energy for this type of volunteerism. They're aging now. So, I don't know. Shannon, when you
SPEAKER_00
35:07
you were a politician, tell us about your volunteers. Like, what was the age of those folks? And did, I'm going to guess it was probably older. Was there, am I wrong? And like, was there efforts to recruit other
SPEAKER_00
35:25
other types of volunteers or bring people into the fold? Yes,
Shannon
35:29
Yes, is the short answer from the very beginning. We never took the approach that there's like a youth wing and an adult party. We just, everybody was in the adult party. uh we um would
Shannon
35:42
would go and talk to our uh political scientist uh friends and say if you know any students that are super into progressive politics because they know they're they're students and and they would uh give us recommendations not just in poli sci but in the other arts faculties too right if there were bright lights in there then we would we would ask for those uh folks to be sent
Shannon
36:03
sent over to us people who are super jazzed about politics and uh some of those people are still working in politics uh some of those people um came with us into government uh and now we're doing other things uh it's been 15 years uh and so yeah uh and you can you know we we then benefited from the full range of ages and it's it's different people are comfortable doing different tasks too and that's one of the things about volunteer management it's really important to give people something to do that they're not going to fail at uh that they're not going to get frustrated with um and uh you know value everyone's contribution of course i mean we're new democrats so we're pretty good at that um but also give people a reason to come back whether if it's just food or if
Shannon
36:48
if it's a little bit of money or whatever the case may be you have to think about
Shannon
36:54
people's needs much more broadly than
Shannon
36:57
than just uh their you know desire to kind of altruistically you know be a democratic citizen.
SPEAKER_00
37:05
Leah do you think there's for the community league in Edmonton like is some of this just a comms problem in terms of and I I'm glad I don't know if they went to media or if media saw the board meeting and got in touch and they spoke but like is some of it just a comms problem in terms of like and
SPEAKER_00
37:19
and again the issue is volunteers so it's hard to have volunteers to do this but go knock on doors around the community league and tell people about it be in media and talk about it like is how much of this is the comms problem and how much do you think is a fundamental societal problem that people are not volunteering in the numbers that they once were anyone
SPEAKER_01
37:39
anyone who works in comms loves it when people say that it's a comms problem
Shannon
37:50
am also curious how the story came about um and i also i think i i read that the The meeting is coming up in a week or two.
SPEAKER_01
37:58
So I'll be curious if it being in the news generated interest and they were able to attract enough people to join the board. I think that's interesting.
SPEAKER_01
38:07
will always say there are opportunities to get a message out better and more clearly and more in more compelling ways.
SPEAKER_01
38:13
I'm sure that that could
SPEAKER_01
38:15
could happen with community leagues. To Shannon's point, though, I think they're well known
Shannon
38:19
known in Edmonton. They there's not really like
Shannon
38:23
like they're understood as sort of an institution. I
SPEAKER_01
38:26
I think my worry is much bigger than that. I think it has to do with
SPEAKER_01
38:33
and not having time or energy or the ability, lack
SPEAKER_01
38:38
lack of investment over decades. That means, you know, you said it earlier that this infrastructure is crumbling and you don't want to end up being like holding the bag on that.
Shannon
38:50
And the idea that governments do less and less and expect people to step in and do more and more for very
Shannon
38:57
very little. So I do worry about a trend that sort of
SPEAKER_01
39:02
of simplifies this as a problem, a lack of generosity among people without considering, you
Shannon
39:08
you know, the larger kind of system.
SPEAKER_00
39:11
I've been outspoken about that here in Calgary, because you have these really old halls that are sitting on city land, and then they get rented out to the community association for like a dollar, but then it's all volunteers who are managing it. So you have someone who might sign up to the community league or community association in Calgary because they're new to the community and they want to meet people. And then now they're tasked with like managing this crumbling infrastructure and getting rental groups in so that they can pay for it when it's it's it's city owned land and facility. Like, it's nuts to me.
SPEAKER_00
39:46
But this is the thing.
Shannon
39:47
thing. We've gone through 30 years of this. So so
Shannon
39:50
I guess we could do things differently.
Shannon
39:53
Shannon, do you think should we try that?
SPEAKER_00
39:55
Yeah. Yeah, should we? I don't know. Let's just keep doing it how we've been doing it. Do you think, I mean, there's this big, like, I don't know if you two are in this circle, but I found a lot of people this year, 2026, they're like, my resolution is to spend less time online. I want to be on my phone less. Like just nonstop.
SPEAKER_00
40:16
I don't want to scroll. I'm going to watch my screen time. There's like, I don't know. I just feel like a big push of like, let's not be online do
SPEAKER_00
40:23
you think now is the time i
SPEAKER_00
40:26
don't know to bring back those third spaces to bring back that um community association getting to know your neighbors that face-to-face stuff like is is there and obviously my calm sprain i'm always thinking of like an in for what's the big campaign to bring people in but is there like a edmonton federation of community league campaign about now is the time to join your community league yes
Shannon
40:47
yes sure if they have the capacity
Shannon
40:50
capacity to do right this
SPEAKER_01
40:51
is it like if if there's a i think the maybe
SPEAKER_01
40:54
maybe the the best way in on something like this i mean i'm thinking
Shannon
40:58
thinking out loud here but is
Shannon
41:00
is is there a way to offer
Shannon
41:02
offer more or as much as you're asking so is it you
SPEAKER_01
41:07
like a community league or a community association that brings people in to batch cook uh
SPEAKER_01
41:13
uh in order to save money on groceries you know is it like is that a way in that gets people sort of invested and tied to each other? Is it some
Shannon
41:22
some other way to sort of capture
SPEAKER_01
41:24
capture and reflect the challenges people are facing while also bringing
Shannon
41:29
bringing people in and help or
Shannon
41:31
or sort of encouraging an investment in that type of activity? Because I think, you
Shannon
41:36
you know, when I think I don't even have full-time kids and like when I think of taking on more volunteer to your activities i
SPEAKER_01
41:44
can feel the stress rising in my body i don't have time and i i am by far
Shannon
41:50
not the busiest person
Shannon
41:52
person uh even on this podcast so but
SPEAKER_00
41:55
but it's like it's also like those people and i mean i have a four-year-old and my little one just turned two it's
SPEAKER_00
42:01
it's like those people who are in the thick of it with little kids are like also who needs this the most and i'm like super fortunate at our kids daycare is this huge community but there's all of us live near each other we all walk or bike there we hang out after daycare like it's this huge we're so lucky like community building thing but as more people come into it because they come to the park and they see hey there's 10 kids the same age playing how do all these parents know each other like they're so hungry for it those ones that are like in
SPEAKER_00
42:34
those early years are who could so bet they They might not have the time to volunteer, but they have the time to like, hey, come let your kids run around in the gym while you get adult conversation for an hour and your kids are distracted, right? Like it's, there's like a chicken and an egg thing.
Shannon
42:50
This is where the, you know, what is the role of the state to underpin those experiences and the infrastructure for those experiences, right? Right. Because people can find ways to make those connections on their own, to find their way to the third space, but maybe not to clean the docks of the
Shannon
43:09
make sure that the fluorescent lighting is not flickering and driving everyone crazy, that somebody's changed out the bulbs. Like, this is the stuff that is, you know, there's a reason why we have funded this collectively.
Shannon
43:22
And there's a reason why when those funds disappear because of efficiency or whatever, who gets left holding the bag? Well, usually, it's women with children who are then looking for third spaces to make those connections, right? Or at least historically, it's been women with little kids. And they are the ones who, generally speaking, also are the ones who step in.
Shannon
43:45
um and and so this is like it's a profoundly gendered thing you know who is it was thought to have free time and who doesn't uh and uh you know when you look at time use surveys uh on who was doing uh a lot of this you know even that making of the connections and so on to this day right parenting has changed i think uh but it is still uh primarily uh women who are finding those third spaces who are seeking them out and seeking out that uh community the places for the kids to to be and go and and all of that work and the volunteering at schools and other things which also is a demand on women's time.
SPEAKER_00
44:25
So the gendered part of the conversation is so fascinating to me because again I'll go to my experience because what I know right now but how the daycare crew all got connected was the dads because most of the women in the little crew were the breadwinners so So the dads were doing drop-offs and pickups. So the dads were locking up. That's what I mean.
SPEAKER_02
44:48
But in the broad,
Shannon
44:48
I'm what I'm saying, the
SPEAKER_00
44:50
broad, you know, data
SPEAKER_02
44:51
data sets that we still see.
SPEAKER_00
44:51
see. 100%. And it's like the dads were locking up their bikes together, going to pick up kids and being like, well, how are we going to kill two hours before mom comes home? Oh, let's head to the pump track together. Let's go to the park together. But it's like, it was the dads is where it started, which is so anytime I tell that to people, they're like, what, how, what? and it's just like this weird yeah i totally understand that that's in the minority but yeah there's just like a how how how do you get other people who are exhausted
SPEAKER_00
45:21
exhausted and tired and overworked to to have
SPEAKER_00
45:25
have that foot in to see how valuable it is to have those community connections okay
SPEAKER_00
45:32
move on to our um last uh topic folks um late last week prime minister mark Mark Carney unveiled the federal government's new national automotive strategy at an auto parts manufacturer in the greater Toronto area. The
SPEAKER_00
45:46
The new auto strategy charts the course for the industry and it goes, quote, all in on
SPEAKER_00
45:52
on automaking in Canada at a time when the sector is buckling under the weight of U.S. tariffs and Trump.
SPEAKER_00
45:59
There's a lot to Carney's new auto strategy, from the government giving billions to the auto industry to make Canada a global leader in vehicle electrification to improving charging infrastructure. The headlines the day of really focused on the removal of the Trudeau-era electric vehicles sales mandates and the reintroduction
SPEAKER_00
46:19
Climate change experts and environmental groups seem united in the views the new policy undermines Canada's climate goals. The headlines on opinion pieces in the days since the policy was unveiled have been not
SPEAKER_00
46:31
not great. Great. The Liberals' incomplete lane change on EVs by the Globe and Mail's editorial board.
SPEAKER_00
46:37
Canada's auto strategy is driving blind in the National Observer. And Carney's new auto policy is just as stupid as Trudeau's in Postmedia's driving section. Leah, Shannon, what
SPEAKER_00
46:49
what do you think? If you're writing an opinion piece on the new automotive strategy, what's your headline?
Shannon
46:59
What's that? We'll see, question mark. We'll see.
Shannon
47:04
You know, I'm less concerned about the EV mandates. It is a change to do tailpipe emissions regulations as opposed to sales quotas. That's true.
Shannon
47:20
I think a lot of environmental groups were happy that we ended up with anything at all because
Shannon
47:25
because Detroit was really pushing hard against any kind of sales quota.
Shannon
47:32
but for me, there
Shannon
47:35
there have been thousands of job losses already, 5,000 job losses and a massive drop in production since in the last decade out of the sector. And for me, it feels like I didn't get a headline that said, if you want to sell it here, you have to build it here. and that's
Shannon
47:58
that's as a a Canadian we we have so uh with a smallish window on it as western Canadians it's it just looms so much larger in southwest Ontario but if I was Kearney I'd be driving towards that headline and he didn't get it you know the strategic innovation fund of you know three billion and some other you know investments here and there and some other tweaks on EI and then And like your headline is on the tailpipe emission standards. I
Shannon
48:23
I don't think that's a win. And I don't think there's clarity for
Shannon
48:28
for working people in southwest Ontario and, you know, half a million people that are somehow associated with vehicle manufacturing in this country. I think they would have been better off to figure out the policy mix that drives to that. Leah,
SPEAKER_00
48:43
Leah, what's your take on it?
Shannon
48:45
I mean, I agree. I agree. And also, if you take our money, you have to stay. Like,
Shannon
48:53
both of those areas feel very weak to me. I think you're hearing labor say it, both
SPEAKER_01
48:59
both messages, right? right, that they're, you
Shannon
49:02
you know, they want anyone receiving funding
Shannon
49:05
from the federal government to be obligated to keep their jobs and parts and machinery in the country. And also that they want to see a, you
Shannon
49:14
build it here kind of a policy. So, you know, I'm not entirely sure what trade offs are being made that is preventing, it
SPEAKER_01
49:24
feels intuitive and somewhat obvious in a moment in time where we're looking at uh
SPEAKER_01
49:30
reducing reliance on the u.s where we sort of understand that this partnership we've had particularly in the auto sector is uh you
SPEAKER_01
49:39
you know doomed um
Shannon
49:41
and we're looking to diversify and and secure a sort of national
Shannon
49:48
here at home and i and it's it's unclear to me why that that like what is in the way of
SPEAKER_01
49:53
of something like that when When it seems so obvious and Jen, you know, Phillips, you'll, you'll probably have better ideas than me in terms of what, where
Shannon
50:01
where that gets complicated.
Shannon
50:04
But it's such an easy throw, both it's an easy message to sell in terms of the communications of it. It's
SPEAKER_01
50:11
It's an easy and important gesture to labor whose support you need.
Shannon
50:16
It makes me wonder what the electoral math is in Ontario when, when
SPEAKER_01
50:21
when he keeps sort of bypassing what what seems to be sort of easy low-hanging fruit i don't know that kind
Shannon
50:27
kind of dive dive i don't know what you think shannon
SPEAKER_00
50:29
yeah dive in well i'm gonna i'm
Shannon
50:31
i'm actually gonna back away slowly from the actual policy details because i actually think that we should uh talk to a labor person uh about this and it's it's a bit weedy and i don't know if you're like but i i yeah i mean essentially they're doing everything after the fact is the problem so you You know, Stellantis will close a plant, and then after the fact, we're going to go to them and say, okay, well, you know, but we gave you this money, or we, you know, and we need to, like, we're retconning everything, right? The same thing with the Sault Ste. Marie steel plant, Algoma, I think it was, they got a bunch of money and, you know, shut down at least a shift, if not the
Shannon
51:11
the whole, like, and so it's happening everywhere in tariff-affected sectors. And it feels like the government is following behind those corporate actions instead of having the right policy suite of carrots and sticks before they close shit down and so that they don't touch the hot stove, right?
Shannon
51:31
right? And I think, you know, we should definitely talk to, over the course of this podcast, we are going to start to talk to some, you know, people who are actually in the field and experts on
Shannon
51:43
on this. Are we going to have guests on this
SPEAKER_00
51:44
this podcast, Shannon? We're going to have guests. Look at us. Experts. Look at us.
SPEAKER_02
51:49
I let the cat
SPEAKER_02
51:50
the bag. No, spoiler.
SPEAKER_01
51:51
But, I mean, this is billion dollar dollars. Should we just name them and then they'll have to come on?
Shannon
51:58
I don't know. That feels, it makes me nervous.
Shannon
52:01
What if they say no, Leah?
Shannon
52:04
Yeah, but you're saying. Paul Havre has started yelling about this. And he is, I mean, I can't believe I'm saying this, but he is right. Right. And so the political lane that the liberals are opening up. And I repeat that
SPEAKER_00
52:14
that because I kind of I don't think I've ever heard you say that.
SPEAKER_00
52:18
He is right. Polly
Shannon
52:18
Polly Everett is right. Polly Everett is right. Well, he's very conditionally and provisionally right.
Shannon
52:24
Which part is he right about? He's right
Shannon
52:26
being a mandate by another.
Shannon
52:29
Well, a fuck ton of money without some guarantees that they're going to keep people employed.
Shannon
52:33
employed. Yes, of course. He's irritatingly
SPEAKER_01
52:37
Giovanni. Because it's obvious, though.
SPEAKER_00
52:39
where do you think like have do you think labor has entered the conversation or what would be your advice um for for them to to break through and get their message across that's
Shannon
52:51
that's our last week that was really good that was that both the clc and uniform um and and i thought that was a very you know sort of broad economy articulation of what needs to happen um
Shannon
53:04
um and i think what it did Was it set them up to be a very credible voice of balance within? But, you know, they are also having to work things out with government right now because government is moving forward with an industrial strategy, right? By which I mean a strategy that involves government, unions and corporations, right? In that sort of old, you know, post-war way of thinking about how we build an industry and support an industry. So, you know, labor
Shannon
53:34
labor can't always be doing yelling, right?
Shannon
53:38
right? Sometimes they have to be articulating a vision, but they do have to be seen to be standing up for their members, which
SPEAKER_01
53:46
shedding right now. Right. That push and pull always exists. And I think they're walking the right balance. They've celebrated
Carter
53:53
celebrated the things that are
SPEAKER_01
53:55
are good for them, that they're happy about. They've signaled the things that they want to see more movement on.
Shannon
54:01
To Shannon's point, there's
Shannon
54:03
there's other sectors that they're also negotiating things on, other things that
Shannon
54:08
that are important to their members. So, there has to be some sort
Shannon
54:13
caution in terms of what they're able to say. I think they need, I think labor needs like a Doug
SPEAKER_01
54:18
Doug Ford. Who's the Doug Ford of labor? Like, who can be the body or the person that says the thing that, you
Shannon
54:26
B. Brusk can't say?
SPEAKER_00
54:28
Who is that person? Like
SPEAKER_01
54:29
Like a Rob Ashton type character.
SPEAKER_01
54:32
It should be probably the federal NDP.
Shannon
54:36
Yeah, probably. Probably. Here we are, now we're in, and they've all of a sudden popped up. It took us an hour.
SPEAKER_00
54:44
tuned for future episodes with thoughts from Leah and Shannon on the federal NDP. There will be many. Okay, last one on this. What's the real test of if this
SPEAKER_00
54:56
this new strategy works,
SPEAKER_00
54:58
works, if it's good? Is it literally just EV sales? like what what what are you watching for in the the months to come on this one i
SPEAKER_01
55:09
think one of the things that makes me feel trepidatious is it is predicated on an assumption that there will be a
Shannon
55:16
a market demand for evs and
SPEAKER_01
55:20
uh so that's what i'll be watching for i don't know the market demand right now canadians are actually
Shannon
55:26
interested in buying new
SPEAKER_01
55:28
new vehicles at all
Carter
55:30
Donna, what are you watching for? Yeah,
Shannon
55:33
I'm watching for, I mean, the fact is, is that 40% of cars sold in Canada right now are sold by companies with zero manufacturing footprint in Canada of any kind, right?
Shannon
55:43
right? Of any kind of parts or, you know, end-of-the-line assembly or anything at all.
Shannon
55:51
Uh, and really like confusing the tailpipe and the, the EV issue with the issue of, of, uh, working class jobs in Southwest Ontario, I think is problematic for the government because the, the, the near term, no matter what they're making, people have to have a job. job
Shannon
56:11
uh and the ev piece is almost a distraction from what are you doing to make sure that we have production incentives uh in this country that meet the moment of the u.s tariff threat because right now you
Shannon
56:25
90 of canadian made cars are
Shannon
56:27
are facing a tariff in the united states right this is existential so i i felt like the ev conversation i mean i know it's linked because we are trying trying to incentivize both battery and PHEVs in the country. But I think that what I want to hear is that much
Shannon
56:48
much more blue-collar, crunchy argument on how are we protecting jobs. I think
SPEAKER_00
56:54
think that came across, Shannon, in the coverage from the announcement last week. Yeah, I was going to say the existential thing. There was just so much, to your point about having an expert on, but there was so much in the announcement. it was like the rebates was the headline because people want to talk about rebates but none of the like existential how why this matters so much i don't think that came across at all
Shannon
57:16
no but people understand what comes out of their tailpipe right yeah
Shannon
57:19
uh so that that was kind of the confusion and you know part of it is how uh this uh government is doing things they are doing these sort of large throws right um
Shannon
57:31
um and uh they need to figure out a way to tease out the individual pieces afterwards to
Shannon
57:38
to be clear with canadians on what they're doing yeah it was i think
SPEAKER_01
57:41
think one of the challenges labor faces too is that you know to i
Shannon
57:45
i agree like i want to see the conversation shift to to the workers um and the extreme precarity of those jobs right now and the the devastation that ongoing job losses will cause to big, big parts of this country.
Shannon
58:00
And I think it's like reprehensible that we're not seeing that Carney is as far into his mandate as he is and that that has not been addressed.
Shannon
58:14
if I switch to
Shannon
58:16
to political brain, Like
Shannon
58:18
one of the challenges labor has is that precarity is felt across the board and has seeped sort of all the way through the middle class, people who would understand or call themselves middle class. And
Shannon
58:32
And so to create
Shannon
58:34
create a political window within which you
SPEAKER_01
58:38
you can make the
Shannon
58:39
the kinds of investments, say, that Harper did in the bailout for
Shannon
58:44
for one sector is
Shannon
58:45
is a tough thing to get away with politically.
Shannon
58:50
that is a different question from the right thing to do, but
SPEAKER_01
58:53
but it does present a challenge. And I think that's where labor could lean
Shannon
58:59
is to help make that case. Yes,
SPEAKER_01
59:00
Yes, some interesting threads there, Leah. I
SPEAKER_00
59:03
I am looking at the time. We are going to wrap up our first episode of Balance of Power, but we'll be back. We'll have guests. We'll have gossip. We'll have a lot of fun. So thank you for joining us.
Shannon
59:21
you've been listening to balance of power pod you can reach us at suggestion box at balanceofpowerpod.ca we always want to hear what you have to say our tech production is by haxum our content production assistant is sydney whiting and our music is by shayla miller